Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Steven Noels]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Steven has moved it to "Links'. Thank you - I overlooked the already
existing point at the links page.


oops - you found out already ;-)


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Steven Noels]

Reinhard Poetz wrote:


Ivelin,

I created a new main point in the left menu and called it "Cocoon compared".



In order to keep the left Wiki menu as small as possible, I 'moved' the 
comparison page (which I like) underneath 'Links'


Hope you don't mind...


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: XMLForms vs Struts

[reinhard_poetz]

Steven has moved it to "Links'. Thank you - I overlooked the already
existing point at the links page.

Regards,
Reinhard

> Ivelin,
> 
> I created a new main point in the left menu and called it "Cocoon
> compared".
> 
> Reinhard
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@;apache.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 5:23 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
> >
> >
> > Please do.
> > Wiki is great, but I am not sure in which section would this one
> > article go.
> > Please let me know where it went.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Ivelin
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -----
> > From: "Reinhard Poetz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:02 AM
> > Subject: RE: XMLForms vs Struts
> >
> >
> > Ivelin,
> >
> > As this is an often discussed question: Do you mind adding it to the
> > CocoonWiki? If no I could do it for you ...
> >
> > Regards,
> > Reinhard
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@;apache.org]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:52 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I hope this will not make things even more confusing for you,
> > > but here is my view:
> > >
> > > Struts is 3 parts:
> > > 1) An URL map, matching URLs to Actions.
> > > Everything you can do with struts-config.xml (Struts), you can do with
> > > sitemap.xmap (Cocoon).
> > >
> > > 2) Custom JSP tags for rendering HTML, like i18n, access to JavaBean
> > > properties and others. Cocoon's set of transformers is a superset
> > > of Strut's
> > > visual tags.
> > >
> > > 3) Form handling.
> > > Automated binding between HTML input fields and JavaBeans.
> > > Cocoon's XMLForm does that and much more. It not only provides
> > > the binding,
> > > but it does it in a browser independent way. Struts is only designed
> to
> > > handle automatically HTML input.
> > >
> > >
> > > For fairness sake, I will tell you that over the last 2 years I
> > have used
> > > Struts successfully in big enterprise projects. It is a good and sound
> > > technology when you are only interested to support the major
> > HTML browsers
> > > and you are not concerned with other interfaces to your application
> like
> > > WML, VXML, Web Services, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > My recommendation is, if you are in a hurry and you don't want to
> invest
> > > time in learning a new technology, go Struts.
> > >
> > > If you plan to build a lot of web applications in the future, you
> > > must learn
> > > Cocoon. It will add a very powerful weapon to your software
> > tools arsenal.
> >
> > > You don't have to use it all the time, but when things start to look
> > > dangerously complex, you will find it to be a life saver.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Ivelin
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:48 AM
> > > Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
> > >
> > >
> > > Hy;
> > >
> > > First let me tell you: I like the idea of merging cocoon and struts,
> > > because i see both technologies to be helpfull also in conjunction...
> > >
> > > Omar Tazi wrote:
> > > > If you like the MVC aspect in Struts and like the flexibility
> provided
> > > > by XML/XSLT, and don't like the limitations that come with JSPs,
> check
> > > > out our Framework. It's called OXF (Open XML Framework). OXF is the
> > > > result of our combined passion for Cocoon and Struts/J2EE and our
> > > > involvement in huge enterprise projects. It will dramatically help
> you
> > > > in your tasks (listed below). Good luck!
> > > >
> > >
> > > But i am also a bit confused. I'm following the discussons in this
> > > mailing list for about a week now and this is already the second
> > > mentioning of a product/component (wh

RE: XMLForms vs Struts

[Reinhard Poetz]

Ivelin,

I created a new main point in the left menu and called it "Cocoon compared".

Reinhard

> -Original Message-
> From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@;apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 5:23 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
>
>
> Please do.
> Wiki is great, but I am not sure in which section would this one
> article go.
> Please let me know where it went.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ivelin
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Reinhard Poetz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:02 AM
> Subject: RE: XMLForms vs Struts
>
>
> Ivelin,
>
> As this is an often discussed question: Do you mind adding it to the
> CocoonWiki? If no I could do it for you ...
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@;apache.org]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:52 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope this will not make things even more confusing for you,
> > but here is my view:
> >
> > Struts is 3 parts:
> > 1) An URL map, matching URLs to Actions.
> > Everything you can do with struts-config.xml (Struts), you can do with
> > sitemap.xmap (Cocoon).
> >
> > 2) Custom JSP tags for rendering HTML, like i18n, access to JavaBean
> > properties and others. Cocoon's set of transformers is a superset
> > of Strut's
> > visual tags.
> >
> > 3) Form handling.
> > Automated binding between HTML input fields and JavaBeans.
> > Cocoon's XMLForm does that and much more. It not only provides
> > the binding,
> > but it does it in a browser independent way. Struts is only designed to
> > handle automatically HTML input.
> >
> >
> > For fairness sake, I will tell you that over the last 2 years I
> have used
> > Struts successfully in big enterprise projects. It is a good and sound
> > technology when you are only interested to support the major
> HTML browsers
> > and you are not concerned with other interfaces to your application like
> > WML, VXML, Web Services, etc.
> >
> >
> > My recommendation is, if you are in a hurry and you don't want to invest
> > time in learning a new technology, go Struts.
> >
> > If you plan to build a lot of web applications in the future, you
> > must learn
> > Cocoon. It will add a very powerful weapon to your software
> tools arsenal.
>
> > You don't have to use it all the time, but when things start to look
> > dangerously complex, you will find it to be a life saver.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Ivelin
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
> >
> >
> > Hy;
> >
> > First let me tell you: I like the idea of merging cocoon and struts,
> > because i see both technologies to be helpfull also in conjunction...
> >
> > Omar Tazi wrote:
> > > If you like the MVC aspect in Struts and like the flexibility provided
> > > by XML/XSLT, and don't like the limitations that come with JSPs, check
> > > out our Framework. It's called OXF (Open XML Framework). OXF is the
> > > result of our combined passion for Cocoon and Struts/J2EE and our
> > > involvement in huge enterprise projects. It will dramatically help you
> > > in your tasks (listed below). Good luck!
> > >
> >
> > But i am also a bit confused. I'm following the discussons in this
> > mailing list for about a week now and this is already the second
> > mentioning of a product/component (whatever) that claims to be an
> > on top of cocoon development. But when i enter the pages mentioned
> > above, it is very hard to find the backpointers to cocoon as the
> > base component...
> >
> > Despite that all this stuff sounds very interesting, but i get more
> > and more unshure how to proceed. Some questions rise in my mind:
> >
> > 1.) Why are all such nice and nifty add ons developed all outside
> > of cocoon ?
> > 2.) When i move to such an add on component, how can i enshure
> > to keep up with the releases of cocoon (taking adavantage
> > of the enhancements done there)?
> > 3.) Why can't i find pointers to these add ons from the cocoon

Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Ivelin Ivanov]

Thank you.

Konstantin and I were planning to release a comparison article for quite
some time... and we are still planning ;)


Ivelin

- Original Message -
From: "Jorge Bello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts


> Ivelin wrote:
>
> > 3) Form handling.
> > Automated binding between HTML input fields and JavaBeans.
> > Cocoon's XMLForm does that and much more. It not only provides the
> binding,
> > but it does it in a browser independent way. Struts is only designed to
> > handle automatically HTML input.
>
> This is a very smart summary of diferences between XMLForms & Struts.
>
> Thanks to all for your advice.
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Ivelin Ivanov]

Please do.
Wiki is great, but I am not sure in which section would this one article go.
Please let me know where it went.

Thank you,

Ivelin


- Original Message -
From: "Reinhard Poetz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:02 AM
Subject: RE: XMLForms vs Struts


Ivelin,

As this is an often discussed question: Do you mind adding it to the
CocoonWiki? If no I could do it for you ...

Regards,
Reinhard

> -Original Message-
> From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@;apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:52 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
>
>
>
> I hope this will not make things even more confusing for you,
> but here is my view:
>
> Struts is 3 parts:
> 1) An URL map, matching URLs to Actions.
> Everything you can do with struts-config.xml (Struts), you can do with
> sitemap.xmap (Cocoon).
>
> 2) Custom JSP tags for rendering HTML, like i18n, access to JavaBean
> properties and others. Cocoon's set of transformers is a superset
> of Strut's
> visual tags.
>
> 3) Form handling.
> Automated binding between HTML input fields and JavaBeans.
> Cocoon's XMLForm does that and much more. It not only provides
> the binding,
> but it does it in a browser independent way. Struts is only designed to
> handle automatically HTML input.
>
>
> For fairness sake, I will tell you that over the last 2 years I have used
> Struts successfully in big enterprise projects. It is a good and sound
> technology when you are only interested to support the major HTML browsers
> and you are not concerned with other interfaces to your application like
> WML, VXML, Web Services, etc.
>
>
> My recommendation is, if you are in a hurry and you don't want to invest
> time in learning a new technology, go Struts.
>
> If you plan to build a lot of web applications in the future, you
> must learn
> Cocoon. It will add a very powerful weapon to your software tools arsenal.

> You don't have to use it all the time, but when things start to look
> dangerously complex, you will find it to be a life saver.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Ivelin
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:48 AM
> Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
>
>
> Hy;
>
> First let me tell you: I like the idea of merging cocoon and struts,
> because i see both technologies to be helpfull also in conjunction...
>
> Omar Tazi wrote:
> > If you like the MVC aspect in Struts and like the flexibility provided
> > by XML/XSLT, and don't like the limitations that come with JSPs, check
> > out our Framework. It's called OXF (Open XML Framework). OXF is the
> > result of our combined passion for Cocoon and Struts/J2EE and our
> > involvement in huge enterprise projects. It will dramatically help you
> > in your tasks (listed below). Good luck!
> >
>
> But i am also a bit confused. I'm following the discussons in this
> mailing list for about a week now and this is already the second
> mentioning of a product/component (whatever) that claims to be an
> on top of cocoon development. But when i enter the pages mentioned
> above, it is very hard to find the backpointers to cocoon as the
> base component...
>
> Despite that all this stuff sounds very interesting, but i get more
> and more unshure how to proceed. Some questions rise in my mind:
>
> 1.) Why are all such nice and nifty add ons developed all outside
> of cocoon ?
> 2.) When i move to such an add on component, how can i enshure
> to keep up with the releases of cocoon (taking adavantage
> of the enhancements done there)?
> 3.) Why can't i find pointers to these add ons from the cocoon pages ?
>
> There is sooo many good software around the world and cocoon for me is one
> of the finest. Why does not all this effort take place at the heart but
> is cluttered around in several loosely coupled or even uncoupled
> add on projects ???
>
> And now my final question (to come back to the technical part):
> Why is it so complicated to use struts and cocoon in parallel?
> As far as i understand the concepts of cocoon, i can embed JSP's
> in it's workflow, and if a jsp itself uses struts, why not???
> Although i haven't tried yet, for me these things seem to be
> coexisting without problems ...
>
> Any enlightments on these points are happily welcome...
> best regards, Hussayn
>
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design Gm

Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Erik Bruchez]

SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
> But i am also a bit confused. I'm following the discussons in this
> mailing list for about a week now and this is already the second
> mentioning of a product/component (whatever) that claims to be an on
> top of cocoon development. But when i enter the pages mentioned
> above, it is very hard to find the backpointers to cocoon as the
> base component...

Hussayn, in this particular case the explanation is that OXF compares
with Cocoon on a conceptual level, but doesn't actually use any code
from Cocoon. It is a completely separate project based on a different
architecture of XML pipelines. To tell you the truth, OXF was partly
born from frustrations that its authors had with Cocoon. I hope this
clears up the confusion.

> And now my final question (to come back to the technical part): Why
> is it so complicated to use struts and cocoon in parallel?  As far
> as i understand the concepts of cocoon, i can embed JSP's in it's
> workflow, and if a jsp itself uses struts, why not???  Although i
> haven't tried yet, for me these things seem to be coexisting without
> problems ...

I don't see why this would not be possible (at least in theory) to do
it this way. Usually, from a Struts action you forward your request to
a JSP, but it is actually possible to forward it to any servlet (this
is often how people hook up XSLT with Struts). Such a servlet could be
the Cocoon servlet. You would probably need to have the Struts JAR and
all the Cocoon JARs in the same web application, and to create a
servlet mapping that maps some URLs to the Struts controller. From
Cocoon, you would serialize to XML the JavaBeans put in the request
and session from Struts and from there perform further processing. I
don't know if anybody has attempted this so far though.

Hope this helps,

-Erik


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Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Jorge Bello]

Ivelin wrote:

> 3) Form handling.
> Automated binding between HTML input fields and JavaBeans.
> Cocoon's XMLForm does that and much more. It not only provides the
binding,
> but it does it in a browser independent way. Struts is only designed to
> handle automatically HTML input.

This is a very smart summary of diferences between XMLForms & Struts.

Thanks to all for your advice.


-
Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
FAQ before posting. 

To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

RE: XMLForms vs Struts

[Reinhard Poetz]

Ivelin,

As this is an often discussed question: Do you mind adding it to the
CocoonWiki? If no I could do it for you ...

Regards,
Reinhard

> -Original Message-
> From: Ivelin Ivanov [mailto:ivelin@;apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:52 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
>
>
>
> I hope this will not make things even more confusing for you,
> but here is my view:
>
> Struts is 3 parts:
> 1) An URL map, matching URLs to Actions.
> Everything you can do with struts-config.xml (Struts), you can do with
> sitemap.xmap (Cocoon).
>
> 2) Custom JSP tags for rendering HTML, like i18n, access to JavaBean
> properties and others. Cocoon's set of transformers is a superset
> of Strut's
> visual tags.
>
> 3) Form handling.
> Automated binding between HTML input fields and JavaBeans.
> Cocoon's XMLForm does that and much more. It not only provides
> the binding,
> but it does it in a browser independent way. Struts is only designed to
> handle automatically HTML input.
>
>
> For fairness sake, I will tell you that over the last 2 years I have used
> Struts successfully in big enterprise projects. It is a good and sound
> technology when you are only interested to support the major HTML browsers
> and you are not concerned with other interfaces to your application like
> WML, VXML, Web Services, etc.
>
>
> My recommendation is, if you are in a hurry and you don't want to invest
> time in learning a new technology, go Struts.
>
> If you plan to build a lot of web applications in the future, you
> must learn
> Cocoon. It will add a very powerful weapon to your software tools arsenal.
> You don't have to use it all the time, but when things start to look
> dangerously complex, you will find it to be a life saver.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Ivelin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -
> From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:48 AM
> Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts
>
>
> Hy;
>
> First let me tell you: I like the idea of merging cocoon and struts,
> because i see both technologies to be helpfull also in conjunction...
>
> Omar Tazi wrote:
> > If you like the MVC aspect in Struts and like the flexibility provided
> > by XML/XSLT, and don't like the limitations that come with JSPs, check
> > out our Framework. It's called OXF (Open XML Framework). OXF is the
> > result of our combined passion for Cocoon and Struts/J2EE and our
> > involvement in huge enterprise projects. It will dramatically help you
> > in your tasks (listed below). Good luck!
> >
>
> But i am also a bit confused. I'm following the discussons in this
> mailing list for about a week now and this is already the second
> mentioning of a product/component (whatever) that claims to be an
> on top of cocoon development. But when i enter the pages mentioned
> above, it is very hard to find the backpointers to cocoon as the
> base component...
>
> Despite that all this stuff sounds very interesting, but i get more
> and more unshure how to proceed. Some questions rise in my mind:
>
> 1.) Why are all such nice and nifty add ons developed all outside
> of cocoon ?
> 2.) When i move to such an add on component, how can i enshure
> to keep up with the releases of cocoon (taking adavantage
> of the enhancements done there)?
> 3.) Why can't i find pointers to these add ons from the cocoon pages ?
>
> There is sooo many good software around the world and cocoon for me is one
> of the finest. Why does not all this effort take place at the heart but
> is cluttered around in several loosely coupled or even uncoupled
> add on projects ???
>
> And now my final question (to come back to the technical part):
> Why is it so complicated to use struts and cocoon in parallel?
> As far as i understand the concepts of cocoon, i can embed JSP's
> in it's workflow, and if a jsp itself uses struts, why not???
> Although i haven't tried yet, for me these things seem to be
> coexisting without problems ...
>
> Any enlightments on these points are happily welcome...
> best regards, Hussayn
>
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
> Neuenhöfer Allee 125
> 50935 Köln
> Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
> Fax: +49-221-56011-20
> E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/

Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Ivelin Ivanov]

I hope this will not make things even more confusing for you,
but here is my view:

Struts is 3 parts:
1) An URL map, matching URLs to Actions.
Everything you can do with struts-config.xml (Struts), you can do with
sitemap.xmap (Cocoon).

2) Custom JSP tags for rendering HTML, like i18n, access to JavaBean
properties and others. Cocoon's set of transformers is a superset of Strut's
visual tags.

3) Form handling.
Automated binding between HTML input fields and JavaBeans.
Cocoon's XMLForm does that and much more. It not only provides the binding,
but it does it in a browser independent way. Struts is only designed to
handle automatically HTML input.


For fairness sake, I will tell you that over the last 2 years I have used
Struts successfully in big enterprise projects. It is a good and sound
technology when you are only interested to support the major HTML browsers
and you are not concerned with other interfaces to your application like
WML, VXML, Web Services, etc.


My recommendation is, if you are in a hurry and you don't want to invest
time in learning a new technology, go Struts.

If you plan to build a lot of web applications in the future, you must learn
Cocoon. It will add a very powerful weapon to your software tools arsenal.
You don't have to use it all the time, but when things start to look
dangerously complex, you will find it to be a life saver.



Best,

Ivelin


- Original Message -
From: "SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: XMLForms vs Struts


Hy;

First let me tell you: I like the idea of merging cocoon and struts,
because i see both technologies to be helpfull also in conjunction...

Omar Tazi wrote:
> If you like the MVC aspect in Struts and like the flexibility provided
> by XML/XSLT, and don't like the limitations that come with JSPs, check
> out our Framework. It's called OXF (Open XML Framework). OXF is the
> result of our combined passion for Cocoon and Struts/J2EE and our
> involvement in huge enterprise projects. It will dramatically help you
> in your tasks (listed below). Good luck!
>

But i am also a bit confused. I'm following the discussons in this
mailing list for about a week now and this is already the second
mentioning of a product/component (whatever) that claims to be an
on top of cocoon development. But when i enter the pages mentioned
above, it is very hard to find the backpointers to cocoon as the
base component...

Despite that all this stuff sounds very interesting, but i get more
and more unshure how to proceed. Some questions rise in my mind:

1.) Why are all such nice and nifty add ons developed all outside
of cocoon ?
2.) When i move to such an add on component, how can i enshure
to keep up with the releases of cocoon (taking adavantage
of the enhancements done there)?
3.) Why can't i find pointers to these add ons from the cocoon pages ?

There is sooo many good software around the world and cocoon for me is one
of the finest. Why does not all this effort take place at the heart but
is cluttered around in several loosely coupled or even uncoupled
add on projects ???

And now my final question (to come back to the technical part):
Why is it so complicated to use struts and cocoon in parallel?
As far as i understand the concepts of cocoon, i can embed JSP's
in it's workflow, and if a jsp itself uses struts, why not???
Although i haven't tried yet, for me these things seem to be
coexisting without problems ...

Any enlightments on these points are happily welcome...
best regards, Hussayn

--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous]

Hy;

First let me tell you: I like the idea of merging cocoon and struts, 
because i see both technologies to be helpfull also in conjunction...

Omar Tazi wrote:
If you like the MVC aspect in Struts and like the flexibility provided 
by XML/XSLT, and don't like the limitations that come with JSPs, check 
out our Framework. It's called OXF (Open XML Framework). OXF is the 
result of our combined passion for Cocoon and Struts/J2EE and our 
involvement in huge enterprise projects. It will dramatically help you 
in your tasks (listed below). Good luck!


But i am also a bit confused. I'm following the discussons in this 
mailing list for about a week now and this is already the second 
mentioning of a product/component (whatever) that claims to be an 
on top of cocoon development. But when i enter the pages mentioned
above, it is very hard to find the backpointers to cocoon as the 
base component...

Despite that all this stuff sounds very interesting, but i get more 
and more unshure how to proceed. Some questions rise in my mind:

1.) Why are all such nice and nifty add ons developed all outside 
   of cocoon ?
2.) When i move to such an add on component, how can i enshure 
   to keep up with the releases of cocoon (taking adavantage 
   of the enhancements done there)? 
3.) Why can't i find pointers to these add ons from the cocoon pages ?

There is sooo many good software around the world and cocoon for me is one 
of the finest. Why does not all this effort take place at the heart but 
is cluttered around in several loosely coupled or even uncoupled 
add on projects ???

And now my final question (to come back to the technical part):
Why is it so complicated to use struts and cocoon in parallel?
As far as i understand the concepts of cocoon, i can embed JSP's
in it's workflow, and if a jsp itself uses struts, why not???
Although i haven't tried yet, for me these things seem to be 
coexisting without problems ...

Any enlightments on these points are happily welcome...
best regards, Hussayn

--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
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Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Ivelin Ivanov]

Struts is certainly more mature.

XMLForm has a lot of technological advantages, 
but it will not be released until Cocoon 2.1 stable is out,
which is probably end of this year.


Ivelin




- Original Message - 
From: "Jorge Bello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:18 AM
Subject: XMLForms vs Struts


> May be this a naive question, so please be tolerant.
> 
> I'm beginning to design a small system for my company and I
> need some forms to input/output data.
> 
> I wanto to use open software for the project. I read about 
> frameworks like struts, xmlforms and perhaps others.
> However, I don't know how to decide the technology to use.
> 
> One important aspect to consider is maturity of product.
> 
> Any hint ?
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
> 
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 


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Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Omar Tazi]

If you like the MVC aspect in Struts and like the flexibility provided 
by XML/XSLT, and don't like the limitations that come with JSPs, check 
out our Framework. It's called OXF (Open XML Framework). OXF is the 
result of our combined passion for Cocoon and Struts/J2EE and our 
involvement in huge enterprise projects. It will dramatically help you 
in your tasks (listed below). Good luck!

http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/

-Omar



Hunsberger, Peter wrote:
I'm sorry. It's a kind of help desk in our intranet where the users can:
1) Request technical assistance (input)
2) Query the status of their previous requests
3) Query a DB where any user can look at common problems/solutions

We have 500 total users. I think there could be 10/20 users (max) using
the app simultaneously. We are not planning to use EJB, WS or LDAP.
We have been considering to use a relational DB (Oracle).



There are commercial applications for this very purpose, so I'm not sure why
you're looking at building this yourself?  However, given that you are, I'd
guess you have no need for multiple language support, no need for eventually
scaling the thing to support a lot of users, and no need for multiple
browser support.  As such, Cocoon is likely overkill.  It's not even clear
that you need much of a flexible controller structure (any dynamic work
flow?), but Struts won't do you any harm.  Otherwise this could just be a
simple JSP site or just HTML with Servlets...  

If you have control over the browser you might want to look at DHTML or
client side XML/XSLT with CSS just to keep presentation separated a little
better.  Personally, I'd likely go with a client side XML/XSLT and Servlet
implementation, but I don't know if your shop can handle the XSLT authoring
(it's a bit of a paradigm shift from Java coding)?  I also don't know what
other infrastructure I'd add to the mix without knowing the requirements
better.


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RE: XMLForms vs Struts

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> I'm sorry. It's a kind of help desk in our intranet where the users can:
> 1) Request technical assistance (input)
> 2) Query the status of their previous requests
> 3) Query a DB where any user can look at common problems/solutions
> 
> We have 500 total users. I think there could be 10/20 users (max) using
> the app simultaneously. We are not planning to use EJB, WS or LDAP.
> We have been considering to use a relational DB (Oracle).

There are commercial applications for this very purpose, so I'm not sure why
you're looking at building this yourself?  However, given that you are, I'd
guess you have no need for multiple language support, no need for eventually
scaling the thing to support a lot of users, and no need for multiple
browser support.  As such, Cocoon is likely overkill.  It's not even clear
that you need much of a flexible controller structure (any dynamic work
flow?), but Struts won't do you any harm.  Otherwise this could just be a
simple JSP site or just HTML with Servlets...  

If you have control over the browser you might want to look at DHTML or
client side XML/XSLT with CSS just to keep presentation separated a little
better.  Personally, I'd likely go with a client side XML/XSLT and Servlet
implementation, but I don't know if your shop can handle the XSLT authoring
(it's a bit of a paradigm shift from Java coding)?  I also don't know what
other infrastructure I'd add to the mix without knowing the requirements
better.


-
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FAQ before posting. 

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Re: XMLForms vs Struts

[Jorge Bello]

From: "Hunsberger, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Since XMLForms and Struts aren't directly comparable (they work at very
> different levels and do very different things) we really need to know more
> about your requirements:  How many users?  How many pages? How many forms?
> If you can't give us high level requirements how about low level
> requirements: Do you need database support?  Do you need EJB support?  Do
> you need XML support? Do you need Web services support? Do you need LDAP
> support?
>
> Recommending a particular web technology implementation without having
> specific requirements is sort of like recommending a vehicle without
knowing
> whether the person really has requirements for a car, truck, train,
airplane
> or boat...

I'm sorry. It's a kind of help desk in our intranet where the users can:
1) Request technical assistance (input)
2) Query the status of their previous requests
3) Query a DB where any user can look at common problems/solutions

We have 500 total users. I think there could be 10/20 users (max) using
the app simultaneously. We are not planning to use EJB, WS or LDAP.
We have been considering to use a relational DB (Oracle).

Thanks


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FAQ before posting. 

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RE: XMLForms vs Struts

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> I'm beginning to design a small system for my company and I
> need some forms to input/output data.

How small?  Given that you are posting on Cocoon-users I assume you are
considering using Cocoon though you don't specifically mention it.  The
general consensus seems to be that Cocoon isn't really suited for small
sites/systems.  However, if you have a lot of dynamic rendering, or multiple
browser issues (egg. graceful degradation of multimedia), or multiple output
format requirements it still might make sense.

> I wanto to use open software for the project. I read about 
> frameworks like struts, xmlforms and perhaps others.
> However, I don't know how to decide the technology to use.

Since XMLForms and Struts aren't directly comparable (they work at very
different levels and do very different things) we really need to know more
about your requirements:  How many users?  How many pages? How many forms?
If you can't give us high level requirements how about low level
requirements: Do you need database support?  Do you need EJB support?  Do
you need XML support? Do you need Web services support? Do you need LDAP
support?

Recommending a particular web technology implementation without having
specific requirements is sort of like recommending a vehicle without knowing
whether the person really has requirements for a car, truck, train, airplane
or boat...  


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