Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
To offer a counterpoint to no PHP folks, One reason I like PHP is because right now its pretty much essential to know if you are using open source web applications like MediaWiki, Wordpress or Drupal. I feel like Javascript is also a must for web work. Agreed. I actually hated both PHP and JavaScript, but found I had to know them. I've become more of a fan of JavaScript, even though it is an odd beast. It is just so accessible and (carefully deployed) powerful that it is hard to resist. A kind of Dennis the Menace of the web. PHP is another story. I do need it for just those apps Karen describes. When I want to dig in I need PHP. But I still hate PHP. The online documentation is great, but it really _needs_ this documentation since it seems every function uses a slightly different parameter order or return type and you never know what to expect without looking it up. Unfortunately, this loose ethic has infected code written with PHP so that Drupal and WordPress both suffer the same problems. Yes, if you are going to dig into existing apps you may need PHP. That's why it is good to know what problems you need to solve _before_ committing to your language. The code already written is part of the _community_ of the language. You will do better if you can speak the language of the community. But if you do not have to learn PHP, I would not make it a starting point. It is just too scattered to be fun, at least for me. I would never use PHP to teach programming, though I might use JavaScript or Ruby with new or returning programmers. I keep toying with Ruby on Rails and getting about 1/3 of the way into the book I have before getting completely sidetracked by another project. I had this same problem for a few years. Part of the turn-off for me was the very insiderness of the Ruby crowd. Rails, especially, forces a way of thinking on you, a religion as I often term it. Many languages do this, but I found many of the books assumed you were ready to adopt the religion, and I was not. I finally broke through this barrier with the help of Learning Rails from O'Reilly press. The authors of this book are explicitly skeptical of some of the Rails religion, and make it clear when they are following the way and when they wander afield a bit. I found this welcoming and very helpful for arriving at Rails with my own set of questions and assumptions. I don't think Rails is magical or a solution to all (or even most) problems. But I do think it is a great deal of fun and a very efficient and effective framework for database-backed web apps. Especially if you have found yourself enjoying SmallTalk, Model-View-Controller, Cocoa programming, or the like, you might find a comfortable home and community in Ruby on Rails once you break through the crusty religious barrier. ...Eric Eric Celeste / e...@clst.org / http://eric.clst.org / 651-323-2009
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:24 PM, jenny jennynotanyd...@gmail.com wrote: My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses would be extremely appreciated Hi Jenny, You've gotten lots of good advice and debate about programming languages but my advice is going to be a little bit on a different track. First, in general I'd re-empathize what some other folks have said. Projects are great way to learn a language, although i find a intro to x language also useful to work through at the very beginning of a language. I have found that classes are useful for me mainly because they give me deadlines and I usually try to go above and beyond the call of duty as far as classes go. It's not so much I'm learning from the lectures as it provides a structure for me to learn from and deadlines to work toward. The standards for many classes though are lower than the standards I set for myself so I tend to do overkill for actual assignments. So community college classes might be useful for that purpose. I'd also say some really good courses in software design and engineering can be really good, but it's hard to find good courses in those from what I can tell. Some signs of a good course: frequent group projects, long-term projects, design being taught, a versioning and feature/bug tracking framework setup for students and students are expected to use it, professor does code reviews. Mostly, lots of reading and lots of coding. Look around for tutorials on the web that go beyond hello world. Safari can be really good here, and 24x7 isn't bad. If you can get someone else to pay for it or use an institutional account that would be good. Choose some books on your programming language. Also read some non-programming language specific books like The Pragmatic Programmer, Peopleware, and the Mythical Man-month. (The latter two are older but still some of the best non-technical/management type books I've read). Find a programming environment that's comfortable for you and also try out some different operating systems and interfaces. You could start easy and start looking into various Live CD distributions. That way you can burn a cd or dvd with a new operating system and boot from it and poke around. Another thing you might want to investigate is using Virtual Machines. I have to confess that I haven't used virtual machines in my home environment much, but I suspect it would be really, really useful for learning. That way you can set up a virtual server and install things like databases or web servers without worrying about mucking up your own system. There is some (Indeed, had you asked this question six to eight years ago, I'd say make sure you have a setup where you can mess up your machine but recover). Hopefully after trying different operating systems, text editors, IDEs, version control systems, etc you find tools you really like. (Oh yeah, try to start learning some version control tools too...they're life-savers). Jon Gorman I JC
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:51:38 -0400, Mark Tomko mark.to...@simmons.edu wrote: I wouldn't recommend PHP to learn as a programming language, if your goal is to have a general purpose programming language at your disposal. PHP is a fine language for building dynamic web pages, but it won't help you to slice and dice a big text file or process a bunch of XML or do some other odd job that you don't want to do by hand. To be precise, PHP can indeed do these kind of things, particularly in command line mode. I certainly don't recommend it, but if you're used to PHP for other reasons, and you already have it available to you, you can do 'odd jobs' with PHP. You can also use your teeth to open a tight bottle cap, the edge of a knife as a screwdriver, and duct tape to perform auto repairs. Brian
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
If you don't have access to Safari or books 24x7 through other means (e.g. work, affiliation with a public or academic library), you can get access to a decent collection of current programming ebooks by joining ACM, see http://pd.acm.org/ for details. A Professional membership is $99 annually. Though I haven't tried them yet myself, Professional membership also provides access to online courses in programming and related topics. Shirley On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:19 AM, Jon Gorman jonathan.gor...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:24 PM, jenny jennynotanyd...@gmail.com wrote: My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses would be extremely appreciated Hi Jenny, You've gotten lots of good advice and debate about programming languages but my advice is going to be a little bit on a different track. First, in general I'd re-empathize what some other folks have said. Projects are great way to learn a language, although i find a intro to x language also useful to work through at the very beginning of a language. I have found that classes are useful for me mainly because they give me deadlines and I usually try to go above and beyond the call of duty as far as classes go. It's not so much I'm learning from the lectures as it provides a structure for me to learn from and deadlines to work toward. The standards for many classes though are lower than the standards I set for myself so I tend to do overkill for actual assignments. So community college classes might be useful for that purpose. I'd also say some really good courses in software design and engineering can be really good, but it's hard to find good courses in those from what I can tell. Some signs of a good course: frequent group projects, long-term projects, design being taught, a versioning and feature/bug tracking framework setup for students and students are expected to use it, professor does code reviews. Mostly, lots of reading and lots of coding. Look around for tutorials on the web that go beyond hello world. Safari can be really good here, and 24x7 isn't bad. If you can get someone else to pay for it or use an institutional account that would be good. Choose some books on your programming language. Also read some non-programming language specific books like The Pragmatic Programmer, Peopleware, and the Mythical Man-month. (The latter two are older but still some of the best non-technical/management type books I've read). Find a programming environment that's comfortable for you and also try out some different operating systems and interfaces. You could start easy and start looking into various Live CD distributions. That way you can burn a cd or dvd with a new operating system and boot from it and poke around. Another thing you might want to investigate is using Virtual Machines. I have to confess that I haven't used virtual machines in my home environment much, but I suspect it would be really, really useful for learning. That way you can set up a virtual server and install things like databases or web servers without worrying about mucking up your own system. There is some (Indeed, had you asked this question six to eight years ago, I'd say make sure you have a setup where you can mess up your machine but recover). Hopefully after trying different operating systems, text editors, IDEs, version control systems, etc you find tools you really like. (Oh yeah, try to start learning some version control tools too...they're life-savers). Jon Gorman I JC
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
On 3/25/2010 10:24, Brian Stamper wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:51:38 -0400, Mark Tomko mark.to...@simmons.edu wrote: I wouldn't recommend PHP to learn as a programming language, if your goal is to have a general purpose programming language at your disposal. PHP is a fine language for building dynamic web pages, but it won't help you to slice and dice a big text file or process a bunch of XML or do some other odd job that you don't want to do by hand. To be precise, PHP can indeed do these kind of things, particularly in command line mode. I certainly don't recommend it, but if you're used to PHP for other reasons, and you already have it available to you, you can do 'odd jobs' with PHP. You can also use your teeth to open a tight bottle cap, the edge of a knife as a screwdriver, and duct tape to perform auto repairs. ++ Especially if you're doing or thinking of doing things in the general web arena, PHP is widely used, well-supported by a variety of open-source libraries/frameworks/other projects, and webhosts. It can probably do X, though something else might do it better. That's why I adopted PHP: overall success. See also http://i.imgur.com/pG3q7.jpg -- Yitzchak Schaffer Systems Manager Touro College Libraries 33 West 23rd Street New York, NY 10010 Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230 Fax (212) 627-3197 Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu
[CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010, Brian Stamper wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:51:38 -0400, Mark Tomko mark.to...@simmons.edu wrote: I wouldn't recommend PHP to learn as a programming language, if your goal is to have a general purpose programming language at your disposal. PHP is a fine language for building dynamic web pages, but it won't help you to slice and dice a big text file or process a bunch of XML or do some other odd job that you don't want to do by hand. To be precise, PHP can indeed do these kind of things, particularly in command line mode. I certainly don't recommend it, but if you're used to PHP for other reasons, and you already have it available to you, you can do 'odd jobs' with PHP. You can also use your teeth to open a tight bottle cap, the edge of a knife as a screwdriver, and duct tape to perform auto repairs. You say that as if duct tape is a bad thing for auto repairs. Not all duct tape repairs are candidates for There, I fixed it![1]. It works just fine for the occassional hose repair. -Joe [1] http://thereifixedit.com/
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
Contemporary library web development: a Series of Hoses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes MJ On 2010-03-25, at 11:00 AM, Joe Hourcle wrote: On Thu, 25 Mar 2010, Brian Stamper wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:51:38 -0400, Mark Tomko mark.to...@simmons.edu wrote: I wouldn't recommend PHP to learn as a programming language, if your goal is to have a general purpose programming language at your disposal. PHP is a fine language for building dynamic web pages, but it won't help you to slice and dice a big text file or process a bunch of XML or do some other odd job that you don't want to do by hand. To be precise, PHP can indeed do these kind of things, particularly in command line mode. I certainly don't recommend it, but if you're used to PHP for other reasons, and you already have it available to you, you can do 'odd jobs' with PHP. You can also use your teeth to open a tight bottle cap, the edge of a knife as a screwdriver, and duct tape to perform auto repairs. You say that as if duct tape is a bad thing for auto repairs. Not all duct tape repairs are candidates for There, I fixed it![1]. It works just fine for the occassional hose repair. -Joe [1] http://thereifixedit.com/
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote: I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't recommend PHP to beginners. Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had to clean up after them. Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them. And how to avoid security holes in web code in general. -- Yitzchak Schaffer Systems Manager Touro College Libraries 33 West 23rd Street New York, NY 10010 Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230 Fax (212) 627-3197 Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
As someone who uses PHP to do the small things I would recommend using Python or another language. I am trying to transition away from PHP to Python as it is not a panacea. PHP's great for web scripting but was never intended to do all of the duct taped projects that I have put together with it. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Yitzchak Schaffer yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com wrote: On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote: I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't recommend PHP to beginners. Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had to clean up after them. Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them. And how to avoid security holes in web code in general. -- Yitzchak Schaffer Systems Manager Touro College Libraries 33 West 23rd Street New York, NY 10010 Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230 Fax (212) 627-3197 Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
You should /join #code4lib. Only there will you learn the secret one true path to wisdom. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Matthew Bachtell matthewbacht...@gmail.com wrote: As someone who uses PHP to do the small things I would recommend using Python or another language. I am trying to transition away from PHP to Python as it is not a panacea. PHP's great for web scripting but was never intended to do all of the duct taped projects that I have put together with it. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Yitzchak Schaffer yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com wrote: On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote: I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't recommend PHP to beginners. Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had to clean up after them. Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them. And how to avoid security holes in web code in general. -- Yitzchak Schaffer Systems Manager Touro College Libraries 33 West 23rd Street New York, NY 10010 Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230 Fax (212) 627-3197 Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
He means JavaScript. ;) Honestly, though, PHP and all it's fault not withstanding, I highly recommend starting with a C syntax-based language such as JavaScript, PHP, Java, or even C# (and obviously C and C++). Get some basic programming concepts understood, and then pursue the language the fits the bill for the task you're trying to solve. Most languages share some similarities, so moving between them gets easier as you go a long. Starting with a C syntax-based language will put you in good stead for learning several more (the list above is by no means exhaustive). If you want to check out some language usage statistics, I recommend these two sites: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://langpop.com/ And do join the #code4lib IRC channel. It's enjoyable regardless of the language you pick. :) On 3/25/10 11:36 AM, Gabriel Farrell wrote: You should /join #code4lib. Only there will you learn the secret one true path to wisdom. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Matthew Bachtell matthewbacht...@gmail.com wrote: As someone who uses PHP to do the small things I would recommend using Python or another language. I am trying to transition away from PHP to Python as it is not a panacea. PHP's great for web scripting but was never intended to do all of the duct taped projects that I have put together with it. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Yitzchak Schaffer yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com wrote: On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote: I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't recommend PHP to beginners. Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had to clean up after them. Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them. And how to avoid security holes in web code in general. -- Yitzchak Schaffer Systems Manager Touro College Libraries 33 West 23rd Street New York, NY 10010 Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230 Fax (212) 627-3197 Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Joe Hourcle onei...@grace.nascom.nasa.gov wrote: You say that as if duct tape is a bad thing for auto repairs. Not all duct tape repairs are candidates for There, I fixed it![1]. It works just fine for the occassional hose repair. At the risk of taking an off-topic conversation even further into Peanut Heaven, automotive hose repair is actually one of the things duct tape is least well-suited to. The adhesive doesn't bond when wet, it's not strong enough to hold much pressure or vacuum (especially moderate continuous pressure), and it fails very quickly at even moderately high temperatures. And it tends to leave goo all over everything, thus adding headaches to the proper repair you'll still need later. Duct tape is OK for keeping a wire bundle out of your fan or something, but if you try to fix a leak in your radiator hose with it, you'll still be stranded and also have gooey duct tape adhesive all over the place. Extending these points to the ongoing language debate is an exercise that will benefit no one ;-) Cheers (and just get that hose replaced ;-) -Nate
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
Also...it's pretty good for plugging leaks in ducts. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Joe Hourcle onei...@grace.nascom.nasa.gov wrote: You say that as if duct tape is a bad thing for auto repairs. Not all duct tape repairs are candidates for There, I fixed it![1]. It works just fine for the occassional hose repair. At the risk of taking an off-topic conversation even further into Peanut Heaven, automotive hose repair is actually one of the things duct tape is least well-suited to. The adhesive doesn't bond when wet, it's not strong enough to hold much pressure or vacuum (especially moderate continuous pressure), and it fails very quickly at even moderately high temperatures. And it tends to leave goo all over everything, thus adding headaches to the proper repair you'll still need later. Duct tape is OK for keeping a wire bundle out of your fan or something, but if you try to fix a leak in your radiator hose with it, you'll still be stranded and also have gooey duct tape adhesive all over the place. Extending these points to the ongoing language debate is an exercise that will benefit no one ;-) Cheers (and just get that hose replaced ;-) -Nate -- Bill Dueber Library Systems Programmer University of Michigan Library
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
I remember watching a show once where they tested various tapes for suitability of duct patching. Duct tape actually came in quite low on the list. To provide lab data about which sealants and tapes last, and which are likely to fail, research was conducted at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory Environmental Energy Technologies Division. Their major conclusion was that one should not use duct tape to seal ducts (specialty tapes are available for this purpose). (They defined duct tape as any fabric-based tape with rubber adhesive.) The testing done shows that under challenging but realistic conditions, duct tapes become brittle and may fail.[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape#cite_note-5Commonly duct tape carries no safety certifications such as ULhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwriters_Laboratories or Proposition 65http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_65_(1986), which means the tape can violently burn, produce toxic smoke, ingestion and contact toxicity, irregular mechanical strength, and low life expectancy for the adhesive on the tape. Its use in ducts has been prohibited by the state of California http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California[7]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape#cite_note-6 and by building codes in most other places in the U.S.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States However, metalized and aluminum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum tapes used by professionals are still often called duck/duct tapes. - Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape#Usage_on_ductwork So ... there you go. However, according to the Mythbusters, it is good for building sail boats and cannons. -Sean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape#Usage_on_ductwork On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Bill Dueber b...@dueber.com wrote: Also...it's pretty good for plugging leaks in ducts. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Joe Hourcle onei...@grace.nascom.nasa.gov wrote: You say that as if duct tape is a bad thing for auto repairs. Not all duct tape repairs are candidates for There, I fixed it![1]. It works just fine for the occassional hose repair. At the risk of taking an off-topic conversation even further into Peanut Heaven, automotive hose repair is actually one of the things duct tape is least well-suited to. The adhesive doesn't bond when wet, it's not strong enough to hold much pressure or vacuum (especially moderate continuous pressure), and it fails very quickly at even moderately high temperatures. And it tends to leave goo all over everything, thus adding headaches to the proper repair you'll still need later. Duct tape is OK for keeping a wire bundle out of your fan or something, but if you try to fix a leak in your radiator hose with it, you'll still be stranded and also have gooey duct tape adhesive all over the place. Extending these points to the ongoing language debate is an exercise that will benefit no one ;-) Cheers (and just get that hose replaced ;-) -Nate -- Bill Dueber Library Systems Programmer University of Michigan Library
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
Quack. -Mike P.S. Oh, duct. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:55, Bill Dueber b...@dueber.com wrote: Also...it's pretty good for plugging leaks in ducts. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote: On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Joe Hourcle onei...@grace.nascom.nasa.gov wrote: You say that as if duct tape is a bad thing for auto repairs. Not all duct tape repairs are candidates for There, I fixed it![1]. It works just fine for the occassional hose repair. At the risk of taking an off-topic conversation even further into Peanut Heaven, automotive hose repair is actually one of the things duct tape is least well-suited to. The adhesive doesn't bond when wet, it's not strong enough to hold much pressure or vacuum (especially moderate continuous pressure), and it fails very quickly at even moderately high temperatures. And it tends to leave goo all over everything, thus adding headaches to the proper repair you'll still need later. Duct tape is OK for keeping a wire bundle out of your fan or something, but if you try to fix a leak in your radiator hose with it, you'll still be stranded and also have gooey duct tape adhesive all over the place. Extending these points to the ongoing language debate is an exercise that will benefit no one ;-) Cheers (and just get that hose replaced ;-) -Nate -- Bill Dueber Library Systems Programmer University of Michigan Library
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
Also...it's pretty good for plugging leaks in ducts. Actually, true story: I was in the hardware store, poking around the tape section, with a roll of your typical silver duct tape in my hand, obviously browsing. An employee came up to me asking what I was looking for, and for what purpose. I told him I was actually going to be taping metal ducts, to which he pointed at the duct tape in my hand and replied oh, then that's not what you want, this is what you want, and handed me some strange plastic stuff I'd never seen before. So, apparently duct tape isn't even good for taping ducts anymore. MJ At the risk of taking an off-topic conversation even further into Peanut Heaven, automotive hose repair is actually one of the things duct tape is least well-suited to. The adhesive doesn't bond when wet, it's not strong enough to hold much pressure or vacuum (especially moderate continuous pressure), and it fails very quickly at even moderately high temperatures. And it tends to leave goo all over everything, thus adding headaches to the proper repair you'll still need later. Duct tape is OK for keeping a wire bundle out of your fan or something, but if you try to fix a leak in your radiator hose with it, you'll still be stranded and also have gooey duct tape adhesive all over the place. Extending these points to the ongoing language debate is an exercise that will benefit no one ;-) Cheers (and just get that hose replaced ;-) -Nate
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote: On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote: I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't recommend PHP to beginners. Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had to clean up after them. Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them. And how to avoid security holes in web code in general. Unfortunately, it's not all web code. Part of the issue is in selecting the correct tool for the job. Case in point -- I've been working for the last year to integrate a new data system into our federation. The system officially hasn't gone live yet, so as the institution building the system had replaced their full time DBA with a contractor, the contractor decided he was going to replace all of the work that the DBA had already done to enable external sites to subscribe to collections within the system. Unfortunately, he did the entire thing in shell, and he's passing around SQL scripts, applying them to the database without any validation, and he's hard-coded assumptions about how directories are laid out and where the script has permissions to write. Needless to say, when you get someone reading stuff from config files with *no* taint checking and *no* escaping or even quoting of arguments passed to other commands, I have to clean it up. I even try passing my changes back upstream, but I'm told that the contractor has to make the changes (and he then picks and chooses which security changes he's going to make ... then decides to wrap each 'rm' and dozen other commands in functions (so I can override what command's being called?), and I now have a shell script that's over 1000 lines. (okay, that's not fair ... his version is only 968 lines, it only gets over 1000 when I try to add my corrections to it, and it's only 702 lines when you strip out comments and blank lines) Now, much of it's just plain bad programming -- I mean, would you test to see if variables were set BEFORE loading the config file? Would you run through a series of functions where each one required the other one to complete without actually testing to see if any of them actually worked? (and well, one of those functions was the one that removed a tarball that took an hour to generate at the server, and the next one report back the 'success' to the server, so I couldn't get the server to run it again without getting someone to correct things manually) ... I probably wouldn't be so hot on the topic, if it hadn't occupied the better part of the last month of my life, and all of this last week. (well, it seems that scp'ing a file for the subscription manager to service to process, and create a tarball response with the contents for your database doesn't work too well when the service isn't actually running ... but the way it's written you have *no* idea what the status of the server is). ... sorry, I just needed to vent. Anyway, part of what makes a good programmer is knowing the correct tools to use. (and unfortunately, by definition, any newbie isn't going to have enough languages in their toolbox to be able to make a good selection). Yes, we always have to deal with determining the 'best' language based on what we know, who's going to maintain it, etc, so we sometimes have to go with sub-optimal choices. But much of it's trying to identify what's going to go wrong with what we build, and trying to make sure that it doesn't break in spectacularly bad ways.[1] I guess most people don't have the men with guns show up and take your servers for forensic analysis when some types of things go wrong, which makes me a little more paranoid in my error handling. But if you put it out there on the internet, someone, sooner or later will attempt to abuse it. It could be link spam on blogs, or usurping a guest book program to send spam, or even people claiming that compression artifacts in your data are UFOs[2], resulting in DDoS of your servers. The bad ones are where they find a way to modify your database, add something to your filesystem, or give them a shell on your system. -Joe [1] http://xkcd.com/327/ [2] http://www.google.com/search?q=disclosure+nasa+sun+2010
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
On 3/24/2010 4:47 PM, Kyle Banerjee wrote: Just so I can use some of my favorite technical jargon, you need to find a reference implementation. That's a fancy way of saying, find the simplest example you can. Then just copy and tweak the code until you grok it. There's an infinite amount to learn, so just take on things one at a time. This is some of the best advice. Reading and adapting good code has been my favorite way to learn. There was a discussion a couple years back on a code4lib code repository of some kind[1]. I'd love to resurrect this idea. A private pastebin[2] might be a decent option. I also know that a number of us use GitHub[3], which allows for collecting syntax highlighted code snippets and has some nifty social networking features that let you follow other coders and projects. GitHub is certainly not a solution for a code4lib repository but is another way to share code and learn from each other. I'm happy to help in any way to push this forward. Aaron [1] https://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0803L=CODE4LIBD=0X=09B7A8434FAC4C7567P=163887 [2] http://pastebin.com/help [3] http://github.com
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Aaron Rubinstein arubi...@library.umass.edu wrote: This is some of the best advice. Reading and adapting good code has been my favorite way to learn. There was a discussion a couple years back on a code4lib code repository of some kind[1]. I'd love to resurrect this idea. A private pastebin[2] might be a decent option. I also know that a number of us use GitHub[3], which allows for collecting syntax highlighted code snippets and has some nifty social networking features that let you follow other coders and projects. GitHub is certainly not a solution for a code4lib repository but is another way to share code and learn from each other. I disagreed with this back in the day, and I still disagree with running our own code repository. There are too many good code hosting solutions out there for this to be justifiable. We used to run an SVN repo at code4lib.org, but we never bothered rebuilding it after our server got hacked. Actually I think GitHub/Google Code and their ilk are a much better solution -- especially for pastebins/gists/etc. What would be useful, though, is an aggregation of the Code4lib's community spread across these sites, sort of what like the Planet does for blog postings, etc. or what Google Buzz does for the people I follow (i.e. I see their gists). I'd buy in to that (and help support it), but I'm not sure how one would go about it. -Ross.
[CODE4LIB] Job Posting: Web Environment Manager, VCU Libraries
Web Environment Manager. Virginia Commonwealth University Libraries seeks faculty candidates for the position of Web Environment Manager, responsible for delivering an exemplary online library presence to the VCU community. Position reports to the Head of Library Information Systems. ALA-accredited graduate degree or advanced degree in computing or information sciences required. Salary commensurate with experience, not less than $55,000. Review of applications will begin April 30, 2010 and will continue until the position is filled. Preferred qualifications, application procedures and other information are available in the complete position description at http://www.library.vcu.edu/admin/WebEnviroMan.html VCU is Virginia’s largest university and one of the nation’s leading research institutions. It is located in historic and dynamic Richmond, Virginia, convenient to the beauty of the Blue Ridge Mountains, the recreation destinations of the Atlantic Ocean and the Chesapeake Bay, and the cultural resources of Washington, D.C. Virginia Commonwealth University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Women, minorities, and persons with disabilities are encouraged to apply. -- Jimmy Ghaphery Head, Library Information Systems VCU Libraries http://www.library.vcu.edu --
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
Newbie programmers (and established ones still looking to improve) might be interested in this blog article that I wrote a few days ago about some of the best programmers I've had the privilege of working with: http://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/the-hacker-the-architect-and-the-superhero-three-completely-different-ways-to-be-an-excellent-programmer/ Enjoy! On 25 March 2010 16:47, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Aaron Rubinstein arubi...@library.umass.edu wrote: This is some of the best advice. Reading and adapting good code has been my favorite way to learn. There was a discussion a couple years back on a code4lib code repository of some kind[1]. I'd love to resurrect this idea. A private pastebin[2] might be a decent option. I also know that a number of us use GitHub[3], which allows for collecting syntax highlighted code snippets and has some nifty social networking features that let you follow other coders and projects. GitHub is certainly not a solution for a code4lib repository but is another way to share code and learn from each other. I disagreed with this back in the day, and I still disagree with running our own code repository. There are too many good code hosting solutions out there for this to be justifiable. We used to run an SVN repo at code4lib.org, but we never bothered rebuilding it after our server got hacked. Actually I think GitHub/Google Code and their ilk are a much better solution -- especially for pastebins/gists/etc. What would be useful, though, is an aggregation of the Code4lib's community spread across these sites, sort of what like the Planet does for blog postings, etc. or what Google Buzz does for the people I follow (i.e. I see their gists). I'd buy in to that (and help support it), but I'm not sure how one would go about it. -Ross.
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
On 3/25/2010 12:47 PM, Ross Singer wrote: I disagreed with this back in the day, and I still disagree with running our own code repository. There are too many good code hosting solutions out there for this to be justifiable. We used to run an SVN repo at code4lib.org, but we never bothered rebuilding it after our server got hacked. Actually I think GitHub/Google Code and their ilk are a much better solution -- especially for pastebins/gists/etc. What would be useful, though, is an aggregation of the Code4lib's community spread across these sites, sort of what like the Planet does for blog postings, etc. or what Google Buzz does for the people I follow (i.e. I see their gists). I'd buy in to that (and help support it), but I'm not sure how one would go about it. -Ross. I think the old discussion was looking more for a way to host code snippets as opposed to version controlled projects, which I agree that GitHub and the like already do nicely. Would we really need more than a code4lib.pastebin.com? That being said, a code planet would be really cool. I know that GitHub and BitBucket publish ATOM feeds of a user's activity but I'm not so sure about other code hosting sites. Anyways, just a thought... Aaron
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
Google code has project feeds in Atom, too. --Dave == David Walker Library Web Services Manager California State University http://xerxes.calstate.edu From: Code for Libraries [code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Aaron Rubinstein [arubi...@library.umass.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:21 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie On 3/25/2010 12:47 PM, Ross Singer wrote: I disagreed with this back in the day, and I still disagree with running our own code repository. There are too many good code hosting solutions out there for this to be justifiable. We used to run an SVN repo at code4lib.org, but we never bothered rebuilding it after our server got hacked. Actually I think GitHub/Google Code and their ilk are a much better solution -- especially for pastebins/gists/etc. What would be useful, though, is an aggregation of the Code4lib's community spread across these sites, sort of what like the Planet does for blog postings, etc. or what Google Buzz does for the people I follow (i.e. I see their gists). I'd buy in to that (and help support it), but I'm not sure how one would go about it. -Ross. I think the old discussion was looking more for a way to host code snippets as opposed to version controlled projects, which I agree that GitHub and the like already do nicely. Would we really need more than a code4lib.pastebin.com? That being said, a code planet would be really cool. I know that GitHub and BitBucket publish ATOM feeds of a user's activity but I'm not so sure about other code hosting sites. Anyways, just a thought... Aaron
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
What is normally labeled duct tape is usually a single layer of cheese cloth with some type of vinyl or plastic on one side and adhesive on the other basically. Duct tape that will pass state inspection, at least where I live, is normally sold as a thin piece of aluminum with adhesive and a slick paper covering the adhesive to be pulled off when used. Thomas I was in construction for 15 years before I went back to school. On Thursday 25 March 2010 12:11:35 you wrote: Also...it's pretty good for plugging leaks in ducts. Actually, true story: I was in the hardware store, poking around the tape section, with a roll of your typical silver duct tape in my hand, obviously browsing. An employee came up to me asking what I was looking for, and for what purpose. I told him I was actually going to be taping metal ducts, to which he pointed at the duct tape in my hand and replied oh, then that's not what you want, this is what you want, and handed me some strange plastic stuff I'd never seen before. So, apparently duct tape isn't even good for taping ducts anymore. MJ At the risk of taking an off-topic conversation even further into Peanut Heaven, automotive hose repair is actually one of the things duct tape is least well-suited to. The adhesive doesn't bond when wet, it's not strong enough to hold much pressure or vacuum (especially moderate continuous pressure), and it fails very quickly at even moderately high temperatures. And it tends to leave goo all over everything, thus adding headaches to the proper repair you'll still need later. Duct tape is OK for keeping a wire bundle out of your fan or something, but if you try to fix a leak in your radiator hose with it, you'll still be stranded and also have gooey duct tape adhesive all over the place. Extending these points to the ongoing language debate is an exercise that will benefit no one ;-) Cheers (and just get that hose replaced ;-) -Nate -- == Thomas McMillan Grant Bennett Appalachian State University Operations Systems AnalystP O Box 32026 University LibraryBoone, North Carolina 28608 (828) 262 6587 Library Systems Help Desk: https://www.library.appstate.edu/help/ ==
[CODE4LIB] Digital Preservation Management workshop, June 13-18 @ M.I.T in Cambridge, MA
Apologies for cross-posting Digital Preservation Management: Short-Term Solutions for Long-Term Problems Location: The Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, USA Dates: June 13-18, 2010 We are very pleased that the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) will host the five-day Digital Preservation Management workshop June 13-18, 2010 in Cambridge MA. Who Should Attend? The intended audience for the workshop series is managers at organizations of all kinds who are or will be responsible for managing digital content over time. The workshop begins on Sunday evening with an opening session, continues Monday -Thursday 9am - 5pm, and concludes on Friday at noon. Additional information about the workshop content and logistics is available at: http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/dpm/workshops/fiveday.html. Instructors and Keynote Speaker Nancy McGovern is the lead instructor for the workshop. Also see brief bios for the current instruction team at: http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/dpm/workshops/instructors.html. The Keynote speaker for the June workshop is Patricia (Trisha) Cruse, the Director of Preservation for the California Digital Library. Application for Registration http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/dpm/workshops/registration.html. Workshop participants apply and are then accepted into the workshop - a two-step process. The form for applying to participate in the workshop will be available by 9am ET on Monday, April 5, 2010 and remain open until the workshop is full (28 participants). Applicants will be notified within 48hrs if they are accepted for the June workshop. We have already had a very high level of interest in the workshop and encourage early application. About the Workshop The Digital Preservation Management workshop was originally developed at Cornell University Library by Anne R Kenney and Nancy Y McGovern and was hosted at Cornell from 2003-2006. Since 2006, Nancy McGovern has continued curricular development and directing the workshop from ICPSR at the University of Michigan. The workshop series has been developed with funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities. This is the final scheduled workshop in this series funded by the NEH. The DPM workshop team intends to offer a five-day workshop in Spring 2011 - location to be determined. If you have questions, please contact us at: digital-preservat...@icpsr.umich.edu Lance Stuchell Project Coordinator, Digital Preservation Management Workshops
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
The proper name is actually Duck Tapehttp://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-3-02-03-on-language-why-a-duck.html?sec=spon=pagewanted=all, yet unlike Duck Typing, it makes everything it touches more reliable. Discuss. However, C4L10 exposed a major gap in my meeting-tech go-bag; I don't have any new style mac dongles- just the DVI to VGA one. People need to send me one of each of the new generation of macbooks, so I can be prepared. Simon
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
Simon you can purchase the dongles at the Mac store (did it for another conference the week after code4lib). Also thank you all for the duck tape info. This explains why the duck tape i used to attach the dryer vent ducts didn't work. i shall now go by the proper tape. and now this conversation has completely devolved. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Simon Spero sesunc...@gmail.com wrote: The proper name is actually Duck Tapehttp://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-3-02-03-on-language-why-a-duck.html?sec=spon=pagewanted=all, yet unlike Duck Typing, it makes everything it touches more reliable. Discuss. However, C4L10 exposed a major gap in my meeting-tech go-bag; I don't have any new style mac dongles- just the DVI to VGA one. People need to send me one of each of the new generation of macbooks, so I can be prepared. Simon
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
I thought Duck Tape was a brand of duct tape? On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Rosalyn Metz rosalynm...@gmail.com wrote: Simon you can purchase the dongles at the Mac store (did it for another conference the week after code4lib). Also thank you all for the duck tape info. This explains why the duck tape i used to attach the dryer vent ducts didn't work. i shall now go by the proper tape. and now this conversation has completely devolved. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Simon Spero sesunc...@gmail.com wrote: The proper name is actually Duck Tape http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-3-02-03-on-language-why-a-duck.html?sec=spon=pagewanted=all , yet unlike Duck Typing, it makes everything it touches more reliable. Discuss. However, C4L10 exposed a major gap in my meeting-tech go-bag; I don't have any new style mac dongles- just the DVI to VGA one. People need to send me one of each of the new generation of macbooks, so I can be prepared. Simon
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
Programming languages as with many other things, are arbitrary. They aren't carved into stone tablets -- they're all made up. Some are better suited for certain problems than others. If you don't like any out there, go invent your own. To argue that one language is better than another is silly when at the end of the day, none of this stuff is real. Programming languages can turn into mind prisons. When you pick up a hammer evey problem starts looking like a nail. Same with the MARC record format. That has become one huge mind prison that the library community will probably never quite get itself out of. Peter Schlumpf www.avantilibrarysystems.com -Original Message- From: Joe Hourcle onei...@grace.nascom.nasa.gov Sent: Mar 25, 2010 11:00 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie) On Thu, 25 Mar 2010, Brian Stamper wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:51:38 -0400, Mark Tomko mark.to...@simmons.edu wrote: I wouldn't recommend PHP to learn as a programming language, if your goal is to have a general purpose programming language at your disposal. PHP is a fine language for building dynamic web pages, but it won't help you to slice and dice a big text file or process a bunch of XML or do some other odd job that you don't want to do by hand. To be precise, PHP can indeed do these kind of things, particularly in command line mode. I certainly don't recommend it, but if you're used to PHP for other reasons, and you already have it available to you, you can do 'odd jobs' with PHP. You can also use your teeth to open a tight bottle cap, the edge of a knife as a screwdriver, and duct tape to perform auto repairs. You say that as if duct tape is a bad thing for auto repairs. Not all duct tape repairs are candidates for There, I fixed it![1]. It works just fine for the occassional hose repair. -Joe [1] http://thereifixedit.com/
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
Agreed -- I coded up many nice SQL injection vulnerabilities before I ever learned PHP. As for Perl, anyone remember the notorious formmail.cgi from Matt's Script Archive? For **web** programming specifically, it's critically important for newbies to get a grounding in security issues, regardless of the language being used. Also, in usability issues, accessibility issues, etc. for anything that's actually going to get used by the public. But really, that mainly applies if you're going to be developing a whole app complete with web-accessible front end. If your interests aren't particularly in web development, you have a whole other set of potential issues to learn about, and I'm probably ignorant of most of them. My first language was C, which according to langpop.com [1] is still the most popular language around! If you don't want to get bogged down in the web security issues, etc., then you might lean toward learning a general-purpose language like C or Java, rather than one designed for a specific purpose as PHP is for web development. [1] http://www.langpop.com/ yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com 03/25/10 07:56AM On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote: I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't recommend PHP to beginners. Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had to clean up after them. Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them. And how to avoid security holes in web code in general.
[CODE4LIB] Job posting: Digital Library Applications Programmer
Hi, We have a “Digital Library Applications Programmer” position opening at the University of Pennsylvania Library. To be a bit more specific than the official announcement: * We have built a Solr-based system (the “DLA”) that we use to deliver various digital collections and catalogs. For instance our video catalog: http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/vcat Image collections: http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/furness Or book/manuscript facsimiles: http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/medren * While continuing to develop the DLA, we are now turning our attention to strengthening our underlying repository of digital objects and its connections to the DLA. In that realm, we are particularly interested in the CDL Pairtree/Merritt micro-services approach. The person hired will be the main programmer for that part of the project, so he/she will have a real opportunity to help shape the project design and influence our architecture. This is a one-year position with the possibility of extension. Please apply through the Penn HR web site: http://www.hr.upenn.edu/Jobs/ The reference number for this position is 100328159. Thanks, Delphine Khanna -- Delphine Khanna, Digital Projects Librarian University of Pennsylvania Library (http://www.library.upenn.edu) ITaDD Department, Room 335W, 3420 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104 Tel:215.573.9086 | Fax:215.898.0559 | Email:delph...@pobox.upenn.edu Digital Library Applications Programmer_2010_postedversion.doc Description: MS-Word document
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
Speaking of Regular Expression, O'Reilly Media has an ebook deal of the day for the Regular Expression Cookbook ($9.99, use code DDREC) [1] OK. I don't know if it's OK to post the info like above, but they advertise that on their Facebook page [2] and I can't resist sharing the saving. ranti. [1] http://oreil.ly/bgvSuD [2] http://www.facebook.com/OReilly?v=wall On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Tim Shearer sh...@ils.unc.edu wrote: Warning: regular expressions can become addictive. And, for some of us batch manipulation of large text sets can provide a whole lot of satisfaction. Finally, I never would have put the strings PHP and sexiness in a sentence together (though I guess I just did). -t -- Bulk mail. Postage paid.
[CODE4LIB] Duct tape (was: PHP bashing (was: newbie))
I love how we changed the name of this thread to PHP bashing just in time for it to become a thread about duct tape. And y'all are forgetting the best automotive use for duct tape: as a temporary scaffolding for smearing Bondo onto. I just did this, in fact, and have the pink residue on my fingernails to prove it. And yes, since you ask: I use PHP all the time... ;) Though not for odd jobs -- that's what Perl is for. Ken From: Code for Libraries [code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of MJ Suhonos [...@suhonos.ca] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:11 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie) Also...it's pretty good for plugging leaks in ducts. Actually, true story: I was in the hardware store, poking around the tape section, with a roll of your typical silver duct tape in my hand, obviously browsing. An employee came up to me asking what I was looking for, and for what purpose. I told him I was actually going to be taping metal ducts, to which he pointed at the duct tape in my hand and replied oh, then that's not what you want, this is what you want, and handed me some strange plastic stuff I'd never seen before. So, apparently duct tape isn't even good for taping ducts anymore. MJ At the risk of taking an off-topic conversation even further into Peanut Heaven, automotive hose repair is actually one of the things duct tape is least well-suited to. The adhesive doesn't bond when wet, it's not strong enough to hold much pressure or vacuum (especially moderate continuous pressure), and it fails very quickly at even moderately high temperatures. And it tends to leave goo all over everything, thus adding headaches to the proper repair you'll still need later. Duct tape is OK for keeping a wire bundle out of your fan or something, but if you try to fix a leak in your radiator hose with it, you'll still be stranded and also have gooey duct tape adhesive all over the place. Extending these points to the ongoing language debate is an exercise that will benefit no one ;-) Cheers (and just get that hose replaced ;-) -Nate
Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP bashing (was: newbie)
I think it's perfectly sensible to declare that there is one best language. Here is the current spec for it: http://lolcode.com/specs/1.2 The only place where I seriously take issue with this language is in their misspelling of kthxbai, but perhaps that is an internal joke sort of like Apache's mod_speling. Peter Schlumpf pschlu...@earthlink.net 03/25/10 12:17PM Programming languages as with many other things, are arbitrary. They aren't carved into stone tablets -- they're all made up. Some are better suited for certain problems than others. If you don't like any out there, go invent your own. To argue that one language is better than another is silly when at the end of the day, none of this stuff is real.
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
Finally, I never would have put the strings PHP and sexiness in a sentence together (though I guess I just did). A simple Google search shows how very wrong you are: sexy php - 56,100,000 results sexy asp - 8,380,000 sexy java - 6,360,000 sexy ruby - 2,840,000 sexy perl - 532,000 sexy C++ - 488,000 sexy smalltalk - 113,000 sexy fortran - 107,000 sexy COBOL - 58,100 There are also very high results for sexy logo. Perhaps, since I was in fourth grade, someone's figured out something interesting to do with that stupid turtle! Tim
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
Just out of curiosity I tried them in quotes: sexy ruby - 72,200 sexy python - 37,900 sexy php - 25,100 sexy java - 16,100 sexy asp - 14,800 sexy perl - 8,080 sexy C++ - 177 sexy FORTRAN - 67 sexy COBOL - 8 I tried sexy lisp but the results were skewed by speech impediment fetishes. Which I'd say is even less strange than 8 people thinking you can write sexy COBOL. On 2010-03-25, at 10:20 PM, Tim Spalding wrote: Finally, I never would have put the strings PHP and sexiness in a sentence together (though I guess I just did). A simple Google search shows how very wrong you are: sexy php - 56,100,000 results sexy asp - 8,380,000 sexy java - 6,360,000 sexy ruby - 2,840,000 sexy perl - 532,000 sexy C++ - 488,000 sexy smalltalk - 113,000 sexy fortran - 107,000 sexy COBOL - 58,100 There are also very high results for sexy logo. Perhaps, since I was in fourth grade, someone's figured out something interesting to do with that stupid turtle! Tim
Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
Ruby may be sexy but sexy ruby on rails gets only four hits. As for sexy python, well, no comment. T On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Andrew Hankinson andrew.hankin...@gmail.com wrote: Just out of curiosity I tried them in quotes: sexy ruby - 72,200 sexy python - 37,900 sexy php - 25,100 sexy java - 16,100 sexy asp - 14,800 sexy perl - 8,080 sexy C++ - 177 sexy FORTRAN - 67 sexy COBOL - 8 I tried sexy lisp but the results were skewed by speech impediment fetishes. Which I'd say is even less strange than 8 people thinking you can write sexy COBOL.
