Re: Fake Steve Rags on OpenMoko!

[Christ van Willegen]

On 7/2/07, Tim Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Freetards.  That's great.  Now I want a shirt that says "I'm a Freetard" on
the back.


...and we want it for free (as in beer, ofcourse, though a Coke suits
me better...)

Christ van Willegen
--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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Re: [openmoko-announce] New Oceans

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Yay!
I was going to wait for GTA02, but the guaranteed price reduction for
GTA01B_v4 has convinced me to buy the Neo immediately.   :)
(Btw, my birthday is in October -- I know what I want!)

I think this new ocean will bring a tsunami of change for the future of
mobile phones.  Thank you Sean, FIC, and OpenMoko.
__
Donnie

Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:

Dear Community,



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Re: An alternative gaming top case

[Tim Newsom]

On Mon, 2 Jul 2007 17:39, Robin Paulson wrote:

I have added a sub-section to the Neo1973 hardware section of the
wiki, concerning alternate cases. there are a few ideas as starters,
including one with a d-pad and a steampunk design. Anyone with any
other ideas/more info to flesh out what i've put there, head over to

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Alternate_cases

If FIC do not have the resourcs at the moment/will not ever supply
schematics, then we need someone to measure their phone and upload
some drawings

I have a 3d scanner that I am planning to employ for building models if 
no one gets to it before I do.
I would be interested in finding out which formats people think should 
be used for the models.. Also, assuming I can get things together what 
is the interest level for case kits and other accessories?


--Tim

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Re: OpenMoko at OSCON?

[Dirk Bergstrom]

Steve Bibayoff wrote:

Spots are already filling up fast:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/bof.html
so someone fill it out soon if they would like to see one.



I'm on it...

--
Dirk

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Re: OpenMoko at OSCON?

[Steve Bibayoff]

Hello,

On 7/2/07, Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

...The best for me would be thursday or friday..


OSCON ends on Friday(meaning=most likely NO Bof's). To sign up for a
BOF, fill out this form:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/create/e_sess?x-t=os2007_BoF.form

Spots are already filling up fast:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/58/bof.html
so someone fill it out soon if they would like to see one.


Steve

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Re: OpenMoko at OSCON?

[Jon Phillips]

On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 17:28 -0700, Don Park wrote:
> On 7/2/07, Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 15:05 -0700, Dirk Bergstrom wrote:
> > > Will there be an official or unofficial OpenMoko presence at The Oreilly
> > > Open Source Conference (OSCON) in Portland later this month?
> > I'll be there...can definitely have a bof.
> 
> i'll be there. a BoF session sounds great. The question is, will any
> neo1973 units be there?
> 
> don

I can bring the hacker toolbox and my openmoko...can you figure out how
to sign up for times? The best for me would be thursday or friday...I'm
presenting about Creative Commons wednesday and throwing a party with
Mozilla that night...anybody want to come to that? Get your beer-zilla
on?

Jon

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San Francisco, CA
USA PH 510.499.0894
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.rejon.org

MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto
Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: OpenMoko at OSCON?

[Don Park]

On 7/2/07, Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 15:05 -0700, Dirk Bergstrom wrote:
> Will there be an official or unofficial OpenMoko presence at The Oreilly
> Open Source Conference (OSCON) in Portland later this month?
I'll be there...can definitely have a bof.


i'll be there. a BoF session sounds great. The question is, will any
neo1973 units be there?

don

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Re: An alternative gaming top case

[Robin Paulson]

On 7/3/07, Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sun, 2007-07-01 at 19:00 -0700, Tim Newsom wrote:
>
> Supposing some company decided to provide alternate case designs or
> add
> on products for the neo1973, who do they need to talk to about
> branding
> / authorization to sell them to the public?
>
> OR
>
> Is it possible that FIC or the OpenMoko company will have a section
> on
> their sales page supporting 3rd party add-ons, etc?

I would love to help sell more accessories. Let's talk more about this
when we get closer to phase 2. Right now it's really hard for me to
divert more resources away from actual software development.

If you or anyone wants to start organizing something on the wiki this
would be even better.


I have added a sub-section to the Neo1973 hardware section of the
wiki, concerning alternate cases. there are a few ideas as starters,
including one with a d-pad and a steampunk design. Anyone with any
other ideas/more info to flesh out what i've put there, head over to

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Alternate_cases

If FIC do not have the resourcs at the moment/will not ever supply
schematics, then we need someone to measure their phone and upload
some drawings

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Re: OpenMoko at OSCON?

[Jon Phillips]

On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 15:05 -0700, Dirk Bergstrom wrote:
> Will there be an official or unofficial OpenMoko presence at The Oreilly
> Open Source Conference (OSCON) in Portland later this month?
> 
> Seems like the perfect place for it...
> 

I'll be there...can definitely have a bof.

Jon

> --
> Dirk
> 
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Jon Phillips

San Francisco, CA
USA PH 510.499.0894
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.rejon.org

MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto
Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: public access point database

[Dylan McCall]

As I wrote in that thread, I believe a static database is not the best
solution. The device could scan networks while idle and associate them with
GPS coordinates. A way to download existing known networks from a web
service could also be presented, if one wants to have an already built
catalog as you suggest (since the scanning would probably be a bit of a
drain on batteries).

I believe that this could all be unified with a centralized Locations system
that ties real world things (friend's houses to gaseous clouds, and
everything in between) with GPS coordinates. Those locations would all be
given Tags and extra options for addresses and the like. (The selected tags
could enable certain inputs, maybe?)
For example, a theatre phone disabler service could see if you are near a
known location with the tag "Theatre", or, of course, a Wifi access point
finder could scan for nearby locations with the tag "WiFi Access Point".
With that much data, of course, such a database could be rather hard to
wield. Just pondering, though :)

GPS coordinates are a really handy way for a device to know where it is, not
just for the user to know where he is! The trouble is that devices really
don't know the real world as well as the user; only the user knows his world
well enough to know how he wants his phone to act in it. Not even the
developers can anticipate the type of information he would want, or provide
it all without some insanely complicated infrastructure. (Google Maps times
10). Remember, this is a small device that is there with you in the real
world as you walk in it; not a big screen at home looking down at the real
world from a distance. It needs unprecedented detail, and I think the best
way to do that is to make it as intuitive for the user to provide his own
information for that location database as it is for the system to download
existing databases from the web.

Bye,
-Dylan McCall

On 7/2/07, Don Park <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 7/2/07, Stuart Gray  wrote:
> http://www.wefi.com/ seems to be along that lines, the software they are
> using seems to be windows only at the moment though :(.  But maybe
somebody
> could write and open source one that still has access to the Google Wifi

The http://www.wigle.net/ website has something closer to what you
describe. Its
been around for years and has an active community uploading wifi tracking
logs. Its  free to use and make queries from, short of downloading
the entire database.

Moving away from wifi for a moment, I think a personal location
service would be a
frequently requested app. Twitter.com could be used as a place to store
lat/long records using its L: feature.

Don

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OpenMoko at OSCON?

[Dirk Bergstrom]

Will there be an official or unofficial OpenMoko presence at The Oreilly
Open Source Conference (OSCON) in Portland later this month?

Seems like the perfect place for it...


--
Dirk

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Re: New Oceans

[Wolfgang S. Rupprecht]

> Also I think that distributors will get the devices cheaper, maybe at $400
> or $350. So the chances to get the device for 450 or less on the free
> market are high.

My guess is that the only difference between the phase 1 and 2 pricing
is the inclusion of the distributor's share in the phase 2 pricing.
Distributors in these parts seem to get electronics around ~66% of
list price.  This is exactly the $300/$450 split one sees in the
phase1/phase2 pricing.  I don't think this is a coincidence.

If FIC does manage to get Ingram Micro or some other large distributor
to carry the Neo, I would expect to start to seeing a street price
much closer $300.

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang S. Rupprechthttp://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/
IPv6 on Fedora 7 http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/fedora/ipv6-tunnel.html


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public access point database

[Don Park]

On 7/2/07, Stuart Gray  wrote:

http://www.wefi.com/ seems to be along that lines, the software they are
using seems to be windows only at the moment though :(.  But maybe somebody
could write and open source one that still has access to the Google Wifi


The http://www.wigle.net/ website has something closer to what you describe. Its
been around for years and has an active community uploading wifi tracking
logs. Its  free to use and make queries from, short of downloading
the entire database.

Moving away from wifi for a moment, I think a personal location
service would be a
frequently requested app. Twitter.com could be used as a place to store
lat/long records using its L: feature.

Don

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Re: An alternative gaming top case

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

On Sun, 2007-07-01 at 19:00 -0700, Tim Newsom wrote:
> 
> Supposing some company decided to provide alternate case designs or
> add 
> on products for the neo1973, who do they need to talk to about
> branding 
> / authorization to sell them to the public?
> 
> OR
> 
> Is it possible that FIC or the OpenMoko company will have a section
> on 
> their sales page supporting 3rd party add-ons, etc? 

I would love to help sell more accessories. Let's talk more about this
when we get closer to phase 2. Right now it's really hard for me to
divert more resources away from actual software development. 

If you or anyone wants to start organizing something on the wiki this
would be even better.

-Sean


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Openembedded with openSUSE 10.2

[Hans van der Merwe]

Anyone had luck getting the dev platform working in openSUSE 10.2?




E-Mail disclaimer:
http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm

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Re: GPS bluetooth receiver

[Brad Midgley]

it can be scripted but it would be better (esp for multiplexing the gps) to
write a little serial server app.

here it is demonstrated with scripts (on a gumstix) but this ends up being a
little racey http://www.xmission.com/~bmidgley/embed/index.html#gps



A bluetooth GPS just creates a BT serial connection, and sends the same
data over that. Once the bluetooth and GPS drivers are working, it should
be very easy to write the necessary demon, it might even be possible with
a few pipes in shell.

--
David Pottage
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Re: Fake Steve Rags on OpenMoko!

[Tim Shannon]

Freetards.  That's great.  Now I want a shirt that says "I'm a Freetard" on
the back.

On 7/1/07, David Lefty Schlesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I don't recall having seen a mention of this on the list previously, but
"Fake Steve Jobs" has taken notice of the FIC1973...


http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2007/06/freetards-are-trying-to-make-iphone.html

"Freetards", hm?


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Re: adding data services with t.mobile for neo 1973

[Daniel Savage]

I've just gone through the process of adding data @ T-Mobile & it really
couldn't be simpler.

The one guideline you need to be aware of is that you CAN NOT get data GPRS
or EDGE on a pay as you go plan (T-Mobile to go).  It has to be on a post
paid monthly account.  To my knowledge and research, neither AT&T or
T-Mobile will permit a data package on a pay as you go basis.

Assuming then that you're on a montly plan.  You just need to request that
they add the unlimited T-Mobile Web to your account.  This is $5.99/month.
On the surface, it just gets you the WAP service .. but that's all you need.

Last week I decided I needed a more production solution than the v1 Moko
will be and bought a Motorola Roker E6 direct from Hong Kong.  Sometime soon
I'll post some thoughts about the E6 that I think are pertinent to UI issues
w/ Moko.  I got it tweaked to Quad Band and Edge and activated it on
T-Mobile, with little or no difficulty.  You will find TONS of information
on the data settings at both HowardForums.com and also at MotorolaFans.Com.

I encourage you to not seek out the "total internet" or "Smartphone
packages" .. you don't need to pay the extra $20/ month.

Good luck.
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Re: GPS bluetooth receiver

[David Pottage]

> Can I use the GTA01B_v4 as a bluetooth gps receiver? And will it be easy
> to do.
>
> I was going to wait for the GTA02 in October, but in the meantime I'm
> about to buy a gps bluetooth receiver to use with maemo-mapper on my N770.
>
> If I can use the GTA01_v4 as a gps receiver instead, I'd rather buy it and
> then get the GTA02 as well.

I would expect bluetooth GPS is in the roadmap, and it will be very easy
to implement.

If you connect a normal GPS to the serial port of your computer (9600
baud, 8N1 usually), and view the output you will see a series of messages
in NEMA format. Once a second the GPS reports your current location. It
can optionally report other parameters such as how good the reception is
and your current speed & heading.

A bluetooth GPS just creates a BT serial connection, and sends the same
data over that. Once the bluetooth and GPS drivers are working, it should
be very easy to write the necessary demon, it might even be possible with
a few pipes in shell.

-- 
David Pottage

Error compiling committee.c To many arguments to function.



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Re: GPS bluetooth receiver

[Ian Stirling]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Can I use the GTA01B_v4 as a bluetooth gps receiver? And will it be easy to do.

I was going to wait for the GTA02 in October, but in the meantime I'm about to 
buy a gps bluetooth receiver to use with maemo-mapper on my N770.


Yes.
It is easy to do at the moment if scripts don't scare you.
It is not a polished end-user app.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS

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Re: An alternative gaming top case

[Ian Stirling]

Frederic Kettelhoit wrote:
But there is a redesign of the board for the accelerometers, the wifi, 
and the 3D Accleration. It would not be much more work to put a 
connector under the top case. So if you want to play games, you just 
take the top case and the back case, remove them, take the new gaming 
cases, add them. The little hole below the screen would be removed, 
instead of it, there would be a d-pad. I am not a hardware engineer, but 
the OpenMoko project built a whole phone, so it should be easy to add 
some small buttons, I think.


I have in the past suggested an additional connector inside the phone.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back

This would bring out:
Battery +
3.3V
USB D+ (simply connected to the external connector)
USB D-
SPI SCLK
SPI MOSI
SPI MISO
SPI SS
0V

A connector similar to Digikey HFL110CT-ND - a 10 way vertical mount 
cable connector next to the battery connector. This is around $.30 at 
1000, and slightly cheaper ones are availabe.


In use, this is coupled to a replacement or modified middle-case of 
plastic, 
(http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta01b_v3_case_empty_white.jpg )
which with a bit of FPC goes to a connector mounted on the middle-case 
that engages with a modified back when plugged in.



A much cheaper alternative would be to bring any of these signals not 
present out to  an enlarged debug connector.
This would mean that a $10 or so adaptor cable would be needed for 
anyone with an old debug board, but...


A small flex cable would then again be used to bring the ~10 wires - 
eliminating unneeded ones - back out to another user-accessible connector.



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Re: An alternative gaming top case

[Ian Stirling]

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Sure -- building your own case is a definite option.  Modifying the
motherboard yourself isn't a practical option (I say that from the
perspective of somebody who has successfully soldered a couple of SMT
components by hand), but there are some unused connectors on there --
in particular an I2C, and I think I've heard of at least one camera
that interfaces to I2C.


Generally most cameras connect to I2C - but they do not ship the camera 
data over this interface.


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GPS bluetooth receiver

[a.tomkins3]

Can I use the GTA01B_v4 as a bluetooth gps receiver? And will it be easy to do.

I was going to wait for the GTA02 in October, but in the meantime I'm about to 
buy a gps bluetooth receiver to use with maemo-mapper on my N770.

If I can use the GTA01_v4 as a gps receiver instead, I'd rather buy it and then 
get the GTA02 as well.

Thanks in advance.
Al

-
Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email
Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam


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mismangled spam [was: Re: You're in luck - special savings inside.]

[David Ford]

How did the X-Originating-IP get set to 425.57.39.1?  Was this a
openmoko.org error or was this inserted by the highly fuckible
wprt-4db600a3.pool.einsundeins.de ([77.182.0.163])?

community@lists.openmoko.org wrote:

[spam snipped out]

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You're in luck - special savings inside.

[community]

Title: Charles Schwab






  





























	 

	
 


   










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Re: Advertising/hype

[Sencer]

Why do people think that AJAX apps are necessarly remote ?


A is asynchronous
X stems from the XMLHttpRequest

Neither of which make sense when talking about purely local apps.
Unless of course Ajax is used in the inflationary sense for everthing
that's client-side Javascript. Which makes it a synonym for DHTML (D
for dynamic), which has been around for much much longer, and has been
more or less universally hated (well, back then browsers were buggier,
connections slower, cpus weaker etc.) and looked down upon by many
people.


but we're talking GUI toolkit here


Not really, but who can blame you, when fashion words and hype make it
very hard  to use specific words for specific concepts. (Reminiscient
of famous research paper titles like "my cat is object oriented")

--
Sencer

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Re: GPS can work stand-alone (Re: Advertising/hype)

[Mikko Rauhala]

ma, 2007-07-02 kello 22:31 +1200, Nick Johnson kirjoitti:
> NZ has GPRS, but my understanding was that the AGPS requires the
> network to explicitly support it to get the assist data - that's
> certainly what everything I've read has indicated. I thought it was
> also required to get a fix at all - that the AGPS chip offloads some
> of the harder work onto the network, as that's what a workmate told me
> - but if he's wrong, I'm glad. ;)

Well, the AGPS concept isn't exactly well-defined, and operators have at
least tried to get their explicit services to be necessary for the
operation of such devices. Even position calculation offloading has been
considered, maybe even implemented somewhere (dunno), but that's rather
ludicurous, as it's not really that CPU intensive.

Anyway, the Global Locate AGPS chip/driver combination is indeed of the
flexible variety that _can_ function standalone, but can also take
advantage of assist data for faster/better fixing.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>


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Re: Advertising/hype

[Nick Johnson]

On 7/2/07, Robin Paulson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

someone has built an offline calendar/reminder tool called Remember The Milk:
http://www.rememberthemilk.com/
it's built on google gears - all the data and application is run
locally and re-synchronises on an internet connection appearing


Yes, but you're still going to need an internet connection to load the
site in the first place, and you're still going to need one whenever
you sync. In the hypothetical situation described in the
'advertisement', both would apply. Besides, I don't see the iPhone
having an implementation of Google Gears in the near future, since
Apple have completely closed the platform to native apps. :)

-Nick Johnson

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Re: GPS can work stand-alone (Re: Advertising/hype)

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Monday 02 July 2007 12:31:00 Nick Johnson wrote:
> certainly what everything I've read has indicated. I thought it was
> also required to get a fix at all - that the AGPS chip offloads some
> of the harder work onto the network, as that's what a workmate told me
> - but if he's wrong, I'm glad. ;)
>
The GPS chip in Neo can work without any support from the network whatsoever, 
just takes him a bit longer to get precise position data.


pgpIZflsyEDcc.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: Advertising/hype

[Robin Paulson]

someone has built an offline calendar/reminder tool called Remember The Milk:
http://www.rememberthemilk.com/
it's built on google gears - all the data and application is run
locally and re-synchronises on an internet connection appearing

On 7/2/07, Nick Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Maps-enabled apps, yes: Google Maps is way more clever than having to
> carry around a continental map. As is Wikipedia access, etc... But
> simple apps will be local, and won't necessarly suck !
>
> It's just the make up that changes (ok, this does'nt count for games,
> but we're talking GUI toolkit here).

I've yet to see an AJAX app that you can load entirely locally, so the
criticism still applies. Besides, the point of nearly all AJAX apps is
as a frontend for some server-connected service or another - maps,
mail, sticky notes, whatever.


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Re: GPS can work stand-alone (Re: Advertising/hype)

[Nick Johnson]

On 7/2/07, Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Umm, the GPS chip and driver don't rely on the cellular network to
function. They can work completely stand-alone. You can get a quicker
cold fix if the driver can fetch some assist data from the network
(what, NZ don't have GPRS?), but this isn't required.


NZ has GPRS, but my understanding was that the AGPS requires the
network to explicitly support it to get the assist data - that's
certainly what everything I've read has indicated. I thought it was
also required to get a fix at all - that the AGPS chip offloads some
of the harder work onto the network, as that's what a workmate told me
- but if he's wrong, I'm glad. ;)

-Nick Johnson

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Re: Advertising/hype

[Nick Johnson]

On 7/2/07, Al Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Monday 02 July 2007 11:02, Nick Johnson wrote:

> I would do it myself, but from what I hear, the AGPS chip in the Neo
> isn't even going to work on NZ's cellular network. Pity. :/

What gives you that idea? It can operate as a GPS without needing anything
from the operator. It can use a bit of downloaded data to get a lock faster
on startup, and may be able to use downloaded data to improve accuracy. None
of this depends on the cellular network.


My understanding was that the AGPS doesn't have the capability to get
a fix on its own - that it requires assistance from the cell network
for some of the heavier-duty processing it does. If I'm wrong about
this, excellent. :)

-Nick Johnson

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GPS can work stand-alone (Re: Advertising/hype)

[Mikko Rauhala]

ma, 2007-07-02 kello 22:02 +1200, Nick Johnson kirjoitti:
> I would do it myself, but from what I hear, the AGPS chip in the Neo
> isn't even going to work on NZ's cellular network. Pity. :/

Umm, the GPS chip and driver don't rely on the cellular network to
function. They can work completely stand-alone. You can get a quicker
cold fix if the driver can fetch some assist data from the network
(what, NZ don't have GPRS?), but this isn't required.

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Re: Advertising/hype

[Al Johnson]

On Monday 02 July 2007 11:02, Nick Johnson wrote:

> I would do it myself, but from what I hear, the AGPS chip in the Neo
> isn't even going to work on NZ's cellular network. Pity. :/

What gives you that idea? It can operate as a GPS without needing anything 
from the operator. It can use a bit of downloaded data to get a lock faster 
on startup, and may be able to use downloaded data to improve accuracy. None 
of this depends on the cellular network.

>
> -Nick Johnson
>
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Re: Packet encryption possibilities?

[Al Johnson]

If you're talking about adding encryption to the standard GSM voice channel 
then I don't think it'll work for several reasons. The base station decrypts 
the voice data before passing it on, and who knows what it'll go through 
between there and the destination. Also the GSM module does all the 
processing for voice calls, so anything you can do will come before the stock 
compression and encryption.

If you're talking about making an encrypted VoIP then check the archives 
because it's been thoroughly discussed. There's a link to a video 
presentation on exactly that, including why the slow GSM data channel is 
better for voice than the faster GPRS

Don't have an NY Times account.

On Monday 02 July 2007 00:56, Patrick Madden wrote:
> Hi -- I spotted a bit of discussion in the archives on this, but it
> wasn't clear if it would be possible to add in alternate encryption
> algorithms.
>
> I'd like to get access to the voice packets prior to them being sent
> out.  The flow I'm hoping to be able to achieve is
> [speaker] -> [stock compression] -> [MY ENCRYPT] -> cell network ->
> [MY DECRYPT] -> [stock decompression] -> [listener]
>
> It looks like the standard encryption algorithms may have been broken
> (see
>  ex=1335499200&en=aa06d98a600afc6f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss>),
> so I'm hoping to develop a good alternative.
>
> One of my research interests is encryption, and cell phones clearly
> need some help.  Will hacking along these lines be possible in the
> upcoming release?   The chip sets used in the phone might not expose
> enough to do this, and if it's not possible, I'd like to know early!
>
> Best Regards,
> Patrick

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Re: Advertising/hype

[Nick Johnson]

On 7/2/07, Florent THIERY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > iPhone: Damnit, lost my connection!

Why do people think that AJAX apps are necessarly remote ?

They can be local and drive internal components (such as a gsmd for
contacts/calling/messaging), do people really think that you'd have to
connect the Internet to write kitchen receipes ?

Maps-enabled apps, yes: Google Maps is way more clever than having to
carry around a continental map. As is Wikipedia access, etc... But
simple apps will be local, and won't necessarly suck !

It's just the make up that changes (ok, this does'nt count for games,
but we're talking GUI toolkit here).


I've yet to see an AJAX app that you can load entirely locally, so the
criticism still applies. Besides, the point of nearly all AJAX apps is
as a frontend for some server-connected service or another - maps,
mail, sticky notes, whatever.

-Nick Johnson

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Re: Advertising/hype

[Nick Johnson]

On 7/2/07, Stuart Gray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


http://www.wefi.com/ seems to be along that lines, the software they are
using seems to be windows only at the moment though :(.  But maybe somebody
could write and open source one that still has access to the Google Wifi
Mappage that works with the Neos GPS.


Wow. Nice idea, but very closed. No developer API that I could find,
proprietary closed-source app only, essentially you give them data and
they keep it.

It would be relatively easy to develop a much more open service along
the same lines - GIS database backend, an open protocol for apps to
submit updates and request information, and a frontend using Google
Maps as well. Wouldn't even be a hugely involved mashup, at that. :)

I would do it myself, but from what I hear, the AGPS chip in the Neo
isn't even going to work on NZ's cellular network. Pity. :/

-Nick Johnson

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Re: Packet encryption possibilities?

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Monday 02 July 2007 01:56:09 Patrick Madden wrote:
> One of my research interests is encryption, and cell phones clearly
> need some help.  Will hacking along these lines be possible in the
> upcoming release?   The chip sets used in the phone might not expose
> enough to do this, and if it's not possible, I'd like to know early!

It should be possible in GSM data mode (which gives you 9600bit/s), but it's 
gonna be expensive on most networks. I doubt ping times are good enough on 
GPRS for it to work.


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Re: Advertising/hype

[Florent THIERY]

> iPhone: Damnit, lost my connection!


Why do people think that AJAX apps are necessarly remote ?

They can be local and drive internal components (such as a gsmd for
contacts/calling/messaging), do people really think that you'd have to
connect the Internet to write kitchen receipes ?

Maps-enabled apps, yes: Google Maps is way more clever than having to
carry around a continental map. As is Wikipedia access, etc... But
simple apps will be local, and won't necessarly suck !

It's just the make up that changes (ok, this does'nt count for games,
but we're talking GUI toolkit here).

Cheers,

Florent

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Re: New Oceans

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Sunday 01 July 2007 06:25:06 Justin Mazzi wrote:
> How much bandwidth is needed? Do you have a system in place for
> selling the phone online?

I think he refers to company bandwidth (i.e. resources to organize sales etc), 
not internet bandwidth


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Re: Packet encryption possibilities?

[Nick Johnson]

On 7/2/07, Patrick Madden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

One of my research interests is encryption, and cell phones clearly
need some help.  Will hacking along these lines be possible in the
upcoming release?   The chip sets used in the phone might not expose
enough to do this, and if it's not possible, I'd like to know early!


Reading the archives, the general consensus seems to be that the only
practical way to do this is to make GSM data calls to the recipient,
and put your own compression and encryption on top of that. The
problems with it are that apparrently it has much higher latency, and
the bandwidth provided may not be enough to even make a call.

-Nick Johnson

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Re: An alternative gaming top case

[Mikko Rauhala]

su, 2007-07-01 kello 18:57 -0700, Dylan McCall kirjoitti:
> The other way is an expansion via bluetooth, or via one of the existing
> hard ports.

Occurs to me that you could manufacture (print, perchance) a thin
exoskeleton for the Neo where you attach a couple of thin buttons, and
in a side or perchance a bottom compartment one of those USB joystick
controller chips and its own battery. Hook it up via Neo's USB host, and
play away. (Bluetooth an option, but I remember seeing those handy
USB-joystick controllers premade.)

Incidentally, I personally have one of these hinge-attaching Bluetooth
keyboard thingies that I presume will attach to the Neo nicely but
probably only in a portrait orientation, making it a suboptimal choice
for many gaming needs:
http://www.pocketnow.com/html/portal/reviews/000725/review/freedom%20mini%20keyboard%20with%20device.jpg

-- 
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Re: Advertising/hype

[Vincent]

On 01/07/07, Frank Coenen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Darn GMail... Here's e-mail I accidentally bcc'd instead of cc'd:

Somehow I don't think that 'the OS/ browser/ app that you built' will
excite anyone except linux-guru's. ;-) (it would scare me away...)
Take a look at some of the N95 vs iPhone spoofs on youtube. Some of them
are really good:
Battery replacement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1-8DpRNGNE&mode=related&search=
Internet: (This one is good since Jobs has convinced a lot of people that
only the iPhone has the 'real' Internet.whatever that may be.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwrE5UCUf7s&NR=1
Google Maps/ GPS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GecftG1Kh7w&NR=1

The scenario I like is also about the freedom to write applications, but
from a user/consumer point of view:
Moko: Hi, I'm an OpenMoko phone
iPhone: And I'm an iPhone
* OpenMoko looks is busy tapping on his phone.
iPhone: What are you doing?
Moko: Oh, I just installed this handy app that lets me .
iPhone: I don't think I have such a program. But I can run ajax-programs
through the web. Check this app out. It finds the cheapest gas stations in
your neighbourhood. Here I'll show you!
* iPhone does nothing.
Moko: Sow, can you show it to me or not?
iPhone: Wait, be patient, I'm loading the app
*pause again.
iPhone: Damnit, lost my connection!



Somehow I also think most people won't know what "Ajax" is, except for the
football club or anything else other than what you mean ;-)

On 7/1/07, Nick Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> This puts me in mind of "this is the house that jack built":
> This is the phone that you built.
> This is the OS running on the phone that you built.
> This is the browser running on the OS on the phone that you built...
>
> Not sure if that's what you were referring to, as I haven't seen the
> ads in question.
>
> -Nick
>
> On 7/2/07, Ryan Prior <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Black background. Things come on screen in their unpolished current
> state,
> > glitches and all.
> > Lines in quotes are voiceovers.
> > "This is turning it on."
> > We see Tux and initscript messages scrolling down the screen.
> > "This is the internet."
> > Show browser displaying Slashdot or kernel.org or something.
> > "This is your music..."
> > Show terminal with:
> >   cd /home/bob/multimedia/music
> >   ls
> >   They Might Be Giants   The White Stripes
> >   The Red Hot Chili Peppers   The Killers
> >   [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > "This is the package manager . . ."
> > Show package manager displaying pending updates.
> > ". . . that installs the updates . . ."
> > User selects an update and clicks Install.
> > " . . . that you write for your Neo."
> > Incoming call interrupts package manager, call is taken.
> > Female voice from phone: "Hey there."
> > Fade to black, display centered text
> >   FIC Neo1973 + OpenMoko
> > Get your hack on.
> >
> > That's my idea for a commercial which calls the iPhone commercials to
> mind,
> > but which are targeted at a different audience and don't raise
> expectations
> > unreasonably high!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ryan
> >
>
> ___
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>


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Re: [openmoko-announce] Re: New Oceans

[mike]

omg. what very good 'goes without saying' (but i'm glad someone did) counsel... 
these situations where users will be needing affordable and available spare 
parts are inevitabilities of nature.  i second.

mike

Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
On Jun 30, 2007, at 5:05 AM, Ian Stirling wrote:

Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
 
 We've had a particularly challenging time trying to setup the online
 infrastructure and figure out how to ship these phones. Sometime later
 today or early tomorrow we're going to make another announcement asking
 for some advice.
 

 Leaping in before being asked, and perhaps not exactly what you're announcing.
 

 On store stock.
 I'd like to see the basic, advanced, but also accessories.
 

 Something like:
 

 Basic $300
 Advanced $450
 Debug Board $120 (inc lunchbox)
 Battery $20
 Guitar Pick $5
 Case (black/silver, front and back) $20
 Replacement screen $120
 Pouch - $15
 

 I personally would also like to see
 Motherboard alone - $150
 GPS antenna - $20
 Internal subframe - $20
 

 This is both for cases where you damage your neo in some manner that is 
clearly not covered by any warranty, and for the cases where you might like to 
use the Neo for something it is clearly not suited for in its existing case.
 

 For example, glue a couple of webcams a USB hub, wifi, into a waterproof  
container, and do stuff with it.
 

We are planning on selling this kind of stuff, but I really don't think we'll 
have the bandwidth before phase 2. Or at least another two months. 


Thanks a lot for letting us know you're interested!


-Sean

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Re: Advertising/hype

[Frank Coenen]

Somehow I don't think that 'the OS/ browser/ app that you built' will excite
anyone except linux-guru's. ;-) (it would scare me away...)
Take a look at some of the N95 vs iPhone spoofs on youtube. Some of them are
really good:
Battery replacement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1-8DpRNGNE&mode=related&search=
Internet: (This one is good since Jobs has convinced a lot of people that
only the iPhone has the 'real' Internet.whatever that may be.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwrE5UCUf7s&NR=1
Google Maps/ GPS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GecftG1Kh7w&NR=1

The scenario I like is also about the freedom to write applications, but
from a user/consumer point of view:
Moko: Hi, I'm an OpenMoko phone
iPhone: And I'm an iPhone
* OpenMoko looks is busy tapping on his phone.
iPhone: What are you doing?
Moko: Oh, I just installed this handy app that lets me .
iPhone: I don't think I have such a program. But I can run ajax-programs
through the web. Check this app out. It finds the cheapest gas stations in
your neighbourhood. Here I'll show you!
* iPhone does nothing.
Moko: Sow, can you show it to me or not?
iPhone: Wait, be patient, I'm loading the app
*pause again.
iPhone: Damnit, lost my connection!






On 7/1/07, Nick Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


This puts me in mind of "this is the house that jack built":
This is the phone that you built.
This is the OS running on the phone that you built.
This is the browser running on the OS on the phone that you built...

Not sure if that's what you were referring to, as I haven't seen the
ads in question.

-Nick

On 7/2/07, Ryan Prior <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Black background. Things come on screen in their unpolished current
state,
> glitches and all.
> Lines in quotes are voiceovers.
> "This is turning it on."
> We see Tux and initscript messages scrolling down the screen.
> "This is the internet."
> Show browser displaying Slashdot or kernel.org or something.
> "This is your music..."
> Show terminal with:
>   cd /home/bob/multimedia/music
>   ls
>   They Might Be Giants   The White Stripes
>   The Red Hot Chili Peppers   The Killers
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> "This is the package manager . . ."
> Show package manager displaying pending updates.
> ". . . that installs the updates . . ."
> User selects an update and clicks Install.
> " . . . that you write for your Neo."
> Incoming call interrupts package manager, call is taken.
> Female voice from phone: "Hey there."
> Fade to black, display centered text
>   FIC Neo1973 + OpenMoko
> Get your hack on.
>
> That's my idea for a commercial which calls the iPhone commercials to
mind,
> but which are targeted at a different audience and don't raise
expectations
> unreasonably high!
>
> Cheers,
> Ryan
>

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Re: New Oceans

[Fred Leeflang]

Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:


On Jun 30, 2007, at 5:05 AM, Ian Stirling wrote:


Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:




We've had a particularly challenging time trying to setup the online

infrastructure and figure out how to ship these phones. Sometime later

today or early tomorrow we're going to make another announcement asking

for some advice.



Leaping in before being asked, and perhaps not exactly what you're 
announcing.



On store stock.

I'd like to see the basic, advanced, but also accessories.


Something like:


Basic $300

Advanced $450

Debug Board $120 (inc lunchbox)

Battery $20

Guitar Pick $5

Case (black/silver, front and back) $20

Replacement screen $120

Pouch - $15


I personally would also like to see

Motherboard alone - $150

GPS antenna - $20

Internal subframe - $20


This is both for cases where you damage your neo in some manner that 
is clearly not covered by any warranty, and for the cases where you 
might like to use the Neo for something it is clearly not suited for 
in its existing case.



For example, glue a couple of webcams a USB hub, wifi, into a 
waterproof  container, and do stuff with it.




We are planning on selling this kind of stuff, but I really don't 
think we'll have the bandwidth before phase 2. Or at least another two 
months. 


Thanks a lot for letting us know you're interested!

-Sean

Sean, List,

The announcement and developments are extremely exciting to me too.
I haven't participated in this list much as I am trying to run and grow
my own business, which isn't easy to do :-) I do however love opensource,
maybe even more so open standards, and pretty much thank my career
to the existance of opensource/standards.

So I'm thinking to myself 'how can I earn some money with doing what
I basically like most: writing opensource software'. Being the author of
an opensource tool called 'Usertracking' I see some synergy with openmoko/
neo. My experience so far is that making money on opensource software
is excruciatingly difficult. If it 'buys' you anything, it's a reference 
that you
can show to a potential client or, much further down the line, something 
where

you can become a consultant for.

The only venture at this point that I can see from participating in the 
openmoko
platform is that I could, for example, be selling phones to clients, 
perhaps even

install my own custom made gadget on it to make the phone I sell 'unique' to
my clients. I'm thinking for example an integration with Usertracking. Down
the line, provinding services to Neo users would be a great want-to-have 
that

could generate revenues.

But, and here is the big problem with that idea, I live in the 
Netherlands and

the cellphone market here is completely controlled by the big telco's. When
you want a really cool phone, all you need to do is go to one of the telco
resellers; they'll give you the phone for free as long as you get their
phone plan for so many euros a month for 2 years or so. I'm guestimating
that close to 99% of people get their phone this way and would NEVER even
consider paying $350+ for their phone.

It's kind of hard to compete with virtually 'free' phones. Is something 
similar
to what I describe here the case in most countries? If so, what's the 
silver bullet
to be able to sell Neo's in a marketplace like that? I'm inclined to 
think that

FIC should be approaching these big telco's as resellers. This would be good
for FIC as they could guarantee large sales #'s but it would not be good for
developpers looking to make some profits on sales as well for obvious 
reasons.


So after this long intro, a question for FIC employees in specific and 
the whole list in

general: How, in your opinion, can participating in the openmoko project
benefit developpers (financially or otherwise) ? Besides facilitating you as
FIC employees with your own department and resources, will FIC facilitate
independant developers in their endevours to make the Neo bigger than
the iPhone (ok, wishfull thinking although I think the Neo *could* beat
the iPhone hands down :)?

Ofcourse there's no need to get really as specific as giving away company
strategy and secrets, but it would be real interesting IMO to share some 
ideas and

see if a large concern like FIC could help some (mostly small) companies
grow their business and by doing so helping FIC grow their product.


--
Fred Leeflang   3DN
Tel. 06-46182773 / 036-5467838   Almere
http://www.3dn.nl http://www.politicap.eu  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Packet encryption possibilities?

[Patrick Madden]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi -- I spotted a bit of discussion in the archives on this, but it  
wasn't clear if it would be possible to add in alternate encryption  
algorithms.


I'd like to get access to the voice packets prior to them being sent  
out.  The flow I'm hoping to be able to achieve is
[speaker] -> [stock compression] -> [MY ENCRYPT] -> cell network ->  
[MY DECRYPT] -> [stock decompression] -> [listener]


It looks like the standard encryption algorithms may have been broken  
(see
),  
so I'm hoping to develop a good alternative.


One of my research interests is encryption, and cell phones clearly  
need some help.  Will hacking along these lines be possible in the  
upcoming release?   The chip sets used in the phone might not expose  
enough to do this, and if it's not possible, I'd like to know early!


Best Regards,
Patrick
- --
Patrick H. Madden, SUNY Binghamton CSD   [EMAIL PROTECTED]



-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

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n+dOskWVQ1/NJNRJaImRASM=
=nU0S
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [openmoko-announce] Re: New Oceans

[Justin Mazzi]

How much bandwidth is needed? Do you have a system in place for  
selling the phone online?



On Jul 1, 2007, at 12:14 AM, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:



On Jun 30, 2007, at 5:05 AM, Ian Stirling wrote:


Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:


We've had a particularly challenging time trying to setup the online
infrastructure and figure out how to ship these phones. Sometime  
later
today or early tomorrow we're going to make another announcement  
asking

for some advice.


Leaping in before being asked, and perhaps not exactly what you're  
announcing.


On store stock.
I'd like to see the basic, advanced, but also accessories.

Something like:

Basic $300
Advanced $450
Debug Board $120 (inc lunchbox)
Battery $20
Guitar Pick $5
Case (black/silver, front and back) $20
Replacement screen $120
Pouch - $15

I personally would also like to see
Motherboard alone - $150
GPS antenna - $20
Internal subframe - $20

This is both for cases where you damage your neo in some manner  
that is clearly not covered by any warranty, and for the cases  
where you might like to use the Neo for something it is clearly  
not suited for in its existing case.


For example, glue a couple of webcams a USB hub, wifi, into a  
waterproof  container, and do stuff with it.


We are planning on selling this kind of stuff, but I really don't  
think we'll have the bandwidth before phase 2. Or at least another  
two months.


Thanks a lot for letting us know you're interested!

-Sean


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Re: adding data services with t.mobile for neo 1973

[Jonas Meyer]

I also have t.mobile.  The key to getting the plan you need with any GSM
carrier is to tell them you have a phone that goes with the plan you
want.  For example, call them up and tell them you just bought an
unlocked Treo 700w from Palm and want a data plan for it.

They will happily provide one.  The people you talk to on the phone for
these companies are reading from scripts.  They are not allowed to say
things that are not in their books (think of it like a choose your own
adventure over the phone where you don't get to know what your choices
are).  That said, in my few months since I switched to tmobile from at&t
/ cingular, I have found their phone zombies to be much superior to
other companies.  I even got them to list what tcp ports they block on
their gprs coverage.  So they may surprise you.

Jonas

P.S.  I am not a normal subscriber to community, so if this does not go
through to that list, please forward it so that others may see this
answer for reference.

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Re: New Oceans

[Thomas Gstädtner]

I think you are right with the distributor-"problematic".
Maybe the devices will get cheaper when there's a bigger amount of orders.
Imho €500 is very much money, but if I had to pay this for a free, not as in
free beer, device - well, I had to pay it. ;)
Also I think that distributors will get the devices cheaper, maybe at $400
or $350. So the chances to get the device for €450 or less on the free
market are high.

I heard people saying they'd never buy a FIC device, because it's a big bad
company and they'd buy a device by HTC and try to get OpenMoko running.
That's not my opinion - I'm glad and very thankful to FIC that they are the
first who produce a phone as open as possible and support a completely
opened sofwareplattform. The price for freedom was always high (whatever
this price was, not only in money), and if I have to pay more money than
usual (but don't forget, Nokia and HTC also want to have about 400 to 600
USD for their devices, the people just think the subsidized devices by
mobile carriers are the normal price) and I'm willing to pay this price in
money (we can be glad to get a bit freedom for money!) for the device I ever
wanted.

2007/7/2, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


If I read the announcement of Sean correctly,

* only the GTA1 device will be 300 US$ and will be shipped directly
from Taiwan.
* the GTA2 devices will have local distributors and will cost 450 US$.

Secondly,
a distributor has to handle warranty and marketing, answer phone
calls, do repairing, has to run his ordering system, pay insurances
and income taxes, and prepare for currency exchange rate fluctuations
etc.

This usually adds *** at least 10% ***.

So I would not expect that the GTA2 device is available for less than:

($450 + $20) / 1.34 * 1.19 * 1.10 = 459 EUR

Therefore I would even prepare for 499 EUR and we all can be happy if
it is less and not more.

Also consider: they have produced 1000 GTA1 devices and want to sell
them at $300. This is 300 k $ revenue. Does this cover production
cost? maybe. Does this cover development cost (I would expect that
they have to pay salaries for at least 10 engineers plus Sean's
travel expenses...): no.

So, we simply should not expect the device to be the cheapest one we
can get. And although we have for the first time the freedom to
install our own software on the Neo devices for free, we (and our
friends) have to purchase a lot of devices to finance the future
hardware development! Don't expect that FIC (or anybody else) can and
will subsidize the new company for years. So we should see any
additional price tag as the price for openness and as a donation to
keep the hardware development wheel spinning.

Am 02.07.2007 um 09:16 schrieb Thomas Gstädtner:

> I calculated the costs for germany.
> Think the shipping will be at about USD 20.
> ($300+$20)/1.34*1.19 = € 285
> 1.34 is relation dollar-euro, 1.19 the 19% Import-VAT in germany.
> Mobile phones do not have taxes in the EU.
>
>
> 2007/7/2, Attila Csipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Starting July
> 9th, we will launch openmoko.com and start taking orders.
>
>
> There was talk about an European distributor. Will that be a
> coordinated
> effort and start taking orders on that day too ? Also, it would be
> good to
> get a confirmation on the Euro prices ( = USD+taxes/duties/shipping/
> etc) the
> end customers on the old continent will have.


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Re: New Oceans

[Attila Csipa]

On Monday 02 July 2007 10:16, you wrote:
> This usually adds *** at least 10% ***.
> Therefore I would even prepare for 499 EUR and we all can be happy if
> it is less and not more.

Not sure how much of the named costs the distributor actually needs to do (I 
don't think he will have support on all european languages (or REAL direct 
non-mail support at all), local marketing is not really applicable to 
OpenMoko, warranty should be mostly handled by FIC, the distributor should 
have also some sort of discount, shipping is MUCH cheaper since it can be 
done in large, slow delivery batches). I don't expect people who really need 
voice tech support and such be using OpenMoko for quite some time. If the 
cost escalates to 500E or above I don't really see a point why have a 
distributor at all except for convenience of delivery time and possible 
duties legwork, ordering overseas makes much more sense in that case. 

> will subsidize the new company for years. So we should see any
> additional price tag as the price for openness and as a donation to
> keep the hardware development wheel spinning.

The question is why would that additional tag be so hefty on the distributor 
side ? If I want to donate and support somebody, I want that money to go to 
the OpenMoko team and not a logistics melting pot of the distributor - he can 
switch products and/or change brand allegiance in a day, OpenMoko cannot.


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Group purchase in South Africa

[Hans van der Merwe]

Anyone in Cape Town, South Africa willing to put together a "group
purchase" of Moko phones to minimise the shipping cost? (for the GTA1
release)?

Is this allowed? 





E-Mail disclaimer:
http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm

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Re: New Oceans

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

If I read the announcement of Sean correctly,

* only the GTA1 device will be 300 US$ and will be shipped directly  
from Taiwan.

* the GTA2 devices will have local distributors and will cost 450 US$.

Secondly,
a distributor has to handle warranty and marketing, answer phone  
calls, do repairing, has to run his ordering system, pay insurances  
and income taxes, and prepare for currency exchange rate fluctuations  
etc.


This usually adds *** at least 10% ***.

So I would not expect that the GTA2 device is available for less than:

($450 + $20) / 1.34 * 1.19 * 1.10 = 459 EUR

Therefore I would even prepare for 499 EUR and we all can be happy if  
it is less and not more.


Also consider: they have produced 1000 GTA1 devices and want to sell  
them at $300. This is 300 k $ revenue. Does this cover production  
cost? maybe. Does this cover development cost (I would expect that  
they have to pay salaries for at least 10 engineers plus Sean's  
travel expenses...): no.


So, we simply should not expect the device to be the cheapest one we  
can get. And although we have for the first time the freedom to  
install our own software on the Neo devices for free, we (and our  
friends) have to purchase a lot of devices to finance the future  
hardware development! Don't expect that FIC (or anybody else) can and  
will subsidize the new company for years. So we should see any  
additional price tag as the price for openness and as a donation to  
keep the hardware development wheel spinning.


Am 02.07.2007 um 09:16 schrieb Thomas Gstädtner:


I calculated the costs for germany.
Think the shipping will be at about USD 20.
($300+$20)/1.34*1.19 = € 285
1.34 is relation dollar-euro, 1.19 the 19% Import-VAT in germany.
Mobile phones do not have taxes in the EU.


2007/7/2, Attila Csipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Starting July  
9th, we will launch openmoko.com and start taking orders.



There was talk about an European distributor. Will that be a  
coordinated
effort and start taking orders on that day too ? Also, it would be  
good to
get a confirmation on the Euro prices ( = USD+taxes/duties/shipping/ 
etc) the

end customers on the old continent will have.



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Re: Screen size vs. resolution

[Thomas Gstädtner]

You won't see the resolution of the display in OpenMoko apps, because they
are optimized - so you will only see the fantastic quality here.
In unoptimized software you will see how small all is, but this won't make
the screen bigger. ;)
Of course the DS can have a bigger screen, because it's a big device you
wouldn't really carry with you all the time.
The 2.8 inches of the Neo are fine - I wouldn't like to have a bigger screen
that would make the device bigger.
Remember: It's a phone, no pure PDA and no mobile gaming device.

2007/7/2, Dylan McCall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


The Neo1973's screen, with its huge resolution (for a portable device),
sounds absolutely beautiful.
However, I am a bit worried about its size, as the thing is smaller across
than a single screen on something like a Nintendo DS, which is hardly a big
screen. Does the resolution, or the size of the device relative to the
screen, make a big enough difference that this smaller screen still feels
pretty big? (Or, even better, is the 2.8 inches I am reading an incorrect
measurement?)

Bye,
Dylan McCall

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Re: New Oceans

[Thomas Gstädtner]

I calculated the costs for germany.
Think the shipping will be at about USD 20.
($300+$20)/1.34*1.19 = € 285
1.34 is relation dollar-euro, 1.19 the 19% Import-VAT in germany.
Mobile phones do not have taxes in the EU.


2007/7/2, Attila Csipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


> Starting July 9th, we will launch openmoko.com and start taking orders.


There was talk about an European distributor. Will that be a coordinated
effort and start taking orders on that day too ? Also, it would be good to
get a confirmation on the Euro prices ( = USD+taxes/duties/shipping/etc)
the
end customers on the old continent will have.

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RE: Advertising/hype

[Stuart Gray]

http://www.wefi.com/ seems to be along that lines, the software they are using 
seems to be windows only at the moment though :(.  But maybe somebody could 
write and open source one that still has access to the Google Wifi Mappage that 
works with the Neos GPS. 


Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 22:07:28 -0700From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 
Re: Advertising/hypeKind of OT, but on the GPS thought... one thing it could do 
is map WiFi hotspots to GPS coordinates automatically as you walk / drive 
around. That way, for example, you could solve that problem of "not being able 
to easily find WiFi hotspots" (which is the big thing against WiFi right now), 
since you could just pull out the device and ask it where the nearest open 
hotspot is. (Boom! There's one). As for point of interest stuff... I don't 
think it would be too painful to have an address book that also has GPS 
coordinates for your addresses, with a little "set to current location" button 
that would tell the device that said coordinates are said address. (And then 
the addresses could have tags, such as Theatre, that the device could act on 
automatically). Bye,-Dylan McCall 

On 7/1/07, Raphaël Jacquot < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
Nick Johnson wrote:> On 7/2/07, Dean Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> Bzzz 
lets not get too carried away – are the Neo's going to have te gps >> locations 
of every cinema globally – nope then lets get realistic >> about what>> it can 
and cant do.>> As someone working in GIS - getting Point Of Interest data like 
that> isn't as hard as you might think. The main problem would be that> you're 
not going to have GPS reception indoors, so you won't> neccessarially know when 
you're entering a cinema. :)you'd be surprised at what recent (sirfstar III) 
receivers can tell you. last time, I could make up the aisles in the 
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