Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Well were all those 'never see them' people linux users and interested in openmoko? Haha we might just all be gifted people ! :D On 6/7/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: ... Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than 20/20 and i use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can read my miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen - they all complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i want anyone to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast majority of other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself out of this - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an exception to the rule. Hi there, I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to personally compare VGA QVGA 2 phone screens. However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is generally quite visible to me. Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for me, be better for displaying webpages PDFs - I'll be able to fit more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller text. So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?). Stroller. it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i never see them... :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Shipping details
Hi Steve, Firstly i would like to thank you and everyone at Openmoko for being so open about the production process. As one who has been involved with the design, manufacture and sales of electronic products for many years i know how complex and frustrating it is to get product out the door, with Murphy's law waiting at every turn! It is a real breath of fresh air, especially in an industry which is getting more and more closed and hard to deal with unless you are talking in 100K+ quantities. Now back to some of those frustrating details. So we can finalise our group buy details could you please enlighten us on the following. What courier companies/the postal service and shipping options (express versus normal etc) will you be using to ship the phones (only UPS or others as well?) Will you be offering the option of having the shipments insured? Do you know how much the insurance will cost. I can't find much information on the UPS web site on insurance. What payment options will you have. Thanks Simon Matthews ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 3:00 AM, Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So wouldn't it be a main problem if we change the main applications like the Dialer, the contacts etc? for example from GTK to Qtopia? other way round or anything else? AFAIK If you have all the libraries it should not be a major problem in theory, though contacts stored in evolution-GTK will not be compatible with the sqlite database of Qtopia. there may be other similar problams where you will need to manually change paths etc. rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video
if you want the :beaten to death threads - search the archives for anything i have mailed - u'll see ones about video playback performance and others Aha... and I was wondering. Kindly excuse :) i go into lots of details. Thats what everyone wants. Props! Rahul J On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 8:38 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 03:36:10 +0530 Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: The question may have been beaten to death but the answers surely haven't been satisfactory. (except for this and Rasterman's.) The only conclusion one can derives from all previous posts is:- 1. Everybody needs a VGA 2. VGA wont perform as smooth as it should on this CPU 3. We should have faster CPU (which in turn still would not matter since the bus speed is limited) I have my doubts cleared now. Thanks. if you want the :beaten to death threads - search the archives for anything i have mailed - u'll see ones about video playback performance and others - i go into lots of details. that is what mickey is talking about. not the immediate last few mails this week... :) Next. Rahul J On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 06 June 2008 18:21:07 Rahul Joshi wrote: I cannot really argue now that you say you have both and see it upfront :( It would be really nice if you can briefly educate as to why this is happening. The question is: What is making it 'not possible' to use the extra CPU speed in 02. Is it a bus limitation? Is it a software bottleneck? Please... this topic has been beaten to death on the lists during the last couple of weeks. Briefly: If it's just about putting pixels on the screen, then what we win with the faster rendering speed is lost due to the smaller bus bandwith to the GPU. Plus, SD transfers go the same path, hence sharing bandwith with transferring pixel commands to the GPU. Number crunching though is almost twice as fast on the 02. Can we talk about something else now? :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Saturday 07 June 2008 00:19:27 Carsten Haitzler wrote: I.e. the problem should be solved by a faster processor with better GPU rather than challenging and and trying to redue user's expectations. Can you build container trucks smaller because then they need much less parking space? but when it has been determined that your cpu is not changing - and there are no other gpu options to improve things... you only can change resolution or speed. which is more important? Resolution is far more important. And graphics performance will hardly be worse than on GTA02, anyhow. If you go QVGA, you're competing squarely against Moto MING and the like. At that point only the most hardcore gimme OPEN crowd (which I estimate to be pretty small) will care about GTA03. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping details
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 8:25 AM, Simon Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve, I am not Steve. Not even close (not ) Firstly i would like to thank you and everyone at Openmoko for being so open about the production process. As one who has been involved with the design, manufacture and sales of electronic products for many years i know how complex and frustrating it is to get product out the door, with Murphy's law waiting at every turn! It is a real breath of fresh air, especially in an industry which is getting more and more closed and hard to deal with unless you are talking in 100K+ quantities. Now back to some of those frustrating details. So we can finalise our group buy details could you please enlighten us on the following. What courier companies/the postal service and shipping options (express versus normal etc) will you be using to ship the phones (only UPS or others as well?) This info will be available in the shop. There you can select TRIsoft and OM a.o. and the shipping price will be available. Will you be offering the option of having the shipments insured? Do you know how much the insurance will cost. I can't find much information on the UPS web site on insurance. UPS takes 1% of the insured value if the shipment is insured. (DHL take 2%) What payment options will you have. At least Visa and not paypal, iirc. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
0n Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:46:57PM +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on future OM phones. The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which is better than what you find on a typical smart phone. you haven't been to japan lately. a whole host of their phones are 834x480... in 3.2 screens! totally nuts! Raster, got a link to any pictures of these magic phones ? -aW IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 06 June 2008 19:18:43 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Yes. This should be IMHO the future for GTA03 - use a better chipset rather than a worse display resolution. Full ACK. Some application I have choosen makes regular screen updates: Neo 1973 every 0.5 seconds (due to more work for the higher number of pixels) Acer n30 every 0.3 seconds (same CPU but QVGA) Zaurus C3100 every 0.3 secons (with X/Qt on VGA) So, the difference is not that large by different architectures and display resolutions. The astonishing thing is that the C3100 is faster than the Neo with the same display. I.e. Display resolution by itself can not be the main issue with speed. The PXA27x runs circles around the S3C2410. This brings me to a point not discussed so far. IMHO it also depends on whether Finger or Pen operation is used. With the finger, you have to reduce the display content anyway - like the iPhone working with many sheets moving from left to the right etc. But if you operate by pen, you have a much better precision so select something and you expect and can handle a much higher information density on a single page. So, a better screen reduces the number of flipping/switching operations. Finally, I think since the GTA03 platform should not rule out either finger or pen operation, it must fulfill the higher requirements. That's what I was thinking as well. Cheers, Mickey. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings, to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option. Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'. I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels very smooth. it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers. and a very good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still HALF the pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen - we'd have better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave about how great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's dpi is I would also like to have a better screen on the iPhone! If you open a web page you have always to zoom in the first step. pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as hell has not It would still be approx. 30% better than a QVGA 2'8... stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and reality seem to show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell. I have now thought a lot about why they have chossen 320x480. Most probably, they have spent a lot of money and useability research to find the **best compromise** between number of pixels, dpi, speed, readibility, information density and cost. Conclusion: * QVGA is worse (!) than the best compromise (as benchmarked by the iPhone) * VGA is better to use - which has its price. So how should one decide between two contradicting requirements? In the view of openness and unknown future applications, I would pay the price to go beyond the best compromise. Even if it needs a more expensive processor to get the speed. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
When I first saw the Neo's screen I was amazed by how crisp the graphics were and the shine on the Openmoko logo looked real to me. The first thing I tried was the terminal (of course) and I was happy that the text could be zoomed, and was still readable. I am short sighted and have seen the graphics on the iPhone and they seemed ok, but this is the first phone display that I have been impressed with. I fully agree: QVGA: the minimum to be useable HVGA (iPhone): good enough VGA: impressive Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping details
So no paypal ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko
saurabh gupta wrote: Although I had a look at sphinx but at this moment I am not very sure that how much will i reuse it since with their very little documentation, the source code is not so comprehensible. However, I am trying to get a hand on it and use its libraries wherever possible. They also propose an IRC channel and forums: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=766785 http://sourceforge.net/forum/?group_id=1904 Best regards, Gilles ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
On 6/6/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: convince me vga is incredibly more useful than qvga. convince me you all have amazing eyesight! :) i am doing this because i am trying to listen to the community and if given a choice - choose the right way based on what you guys think, but PLEASE, be practical, and honest. be honest with yourselves. this is not a my screen is higher dpi than your screen competition. it's about making a nice and usable device you want. if you ask for vga, but you really can't see the difference between qvga and vga, you're not being honest. you're just playing the spec numbers game. I have good eye sight and I believe many other people do, too. You don't need very good eye sight to see the difference but I guess you need it to fully make use of the high resolution. What do we not need VGA for? -Videos. The phone won't do VGA videos anyway and resolution isn't that important when watching videos. (See the popularity of YouTube...) -Finger applications. Displaying huge buttons in high resolution is beautiful but not useful. What do we need VGA for? -Ebook reading. I read Cory Doctorow's Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town in very tiny font on my Neo. It was a great experience. But even fonts that are a little bigger still profit a lot from the high resolution. -Web browsing. There are a lot of tricks to display web pages at low resolutions. I haven't seen anything that works well, though. VGA is the smallest resolution to do web browsing well. -Other things that use text (word processor, speadsheet, calendar, ...) and stylus applications in general. -Games. Not necessarily 3D games but things like OTTD. RTS on a handheld becomes usable at 480*320 and fun at 640*480. Since we don't have buttons, those are the games that are possible on current Neos. -Maps. The tiny map portions you can fit into 320*240 aren't really useful... -Comics. Again, 640*480 is the smalles resolution most comic pages become readable at. -Pictures. They can be displayed at QVGA but only at VGA they look perfect, because it's hard to see the individual pixels. Not being able to see the individual pixels is pretty much the point of the high resolution! -The text console. The terminal app is bad enough with the huge font it is set to at the moment. Way back it had a very tiny font that worked great. Can you imagine it at 320*240? I can't. What future OpenMoko devices need is a bigger screen area. Making the problem worse by decreasing the resolution to a quarter is not a good idea. 480*320 is the lowest resolution I could live with but I'd much rather have 800*480. When I get my Pandora, that's what I'll get used to. Ortwin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping details
no paypal, search the maillist archives, there is more information about reason On 6/7/08, Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So no paypal ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Ublox AGPS On-line impelementation
The perl version is in this pdf: http://people.openmoko.org/matt_hsu/ImplementationAssistNowServerAndClient(GPS.G4-SW-05017-C).pdf Joseph 2008/6/6 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, According to previous mail in community list, there is a perl version of AGPS on-line implementation. But it requires to install many packages. The following is the C implementation. Could you give me a pointer to the message or a link to the perl one. I did not find neither the message nor the implementation ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping details
Simon Matthews wrote: What courier companies/the postal service and shipping options (express versus normal etc) will you be using to ship the phones (only UPS or others as well?) ups. Will you be offering the option of having the shipments insured? Do you know how much the insurance will cost. I can't find much information on the UPS web site on insurance. dunno, but i guess they are. What payment options will you have. visa, master, jcb or so.. no amex, no paypal atleast thats what i know and whats prepared. -- Joachim Steiger Openmoko Central Services ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko
Thanks Gilles, It can be helpful for my project development. On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Gilles Casse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: saurabh gupta wrote: Although I had a look at sphinx but at this moment I am not very sure that how much will i reuse it since with their very little documentation, the source code is not so comprehensible. However, I am trying to get a hand on it and use its libraries wherever possible. They also propose an IRC channel and forums: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=766785 http://sourceforge.net/forum/?group_id=1904 Best regards, Gilles ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Saurabh Gupta Electronics and Communication Engg. NSIT,New Delhi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Default toolkits?
There is a discussion on the local LUG list about the OpenMoko phone and the toolkits used. So far as I understand, the ETK, GTK, and Qt toolkits will be available on the phone, with ETK being the default toolkit used in the core phone UI. Could someone please clue us in and correct me if I'm wrong, so that we will know what we are facing in terms of localizing the device? Thanks in advance. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default toolkits?
2008/6/7 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 7 Jun 2008, at 14:06, Dotan Cohen wrote: There is a discussion on the local LUG list about the OpenMoko phone and the toolkits used. So far as I understand, the ETK, GTK, and Qt toolkits will be available on the phone, with ETK being the default toolkit used in the core phone UI. Could someone please clue us in and correct me if I'm wrong, so that we will know what we are facing in terms of localizing the device? Discussed to death last month. Please see the LONG threads: - Will GTK be used in Openmoko? (was: Re: Software Status Update) - Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions) - clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK - Qtopia Vs. GTK or both? - Qte or Qt? at http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/thread.html Stroller. Thanks, will do. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
Just out of interest, why don't other countries get access to these components sooner? Why do Japanese consumers get them first? Do they pay significantly more than the rest on phones so they're a better market for manufacturers or could openmoko steal a lead here in the rest of the world? Might it be an idea to appeal to these component manufacturers competitive sides and say if you give us the specs to write open drivers we can give you sales in the rest of the world? Regards Dave On Sat, 2008-06-07 at 16:51 +0800, Wilkinson, Alex wrote: 0n Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:46:57PM +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on future OM phones. The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which is better than what you find on a typical smart phone. you haven't been to japan lately. a whole host of their phones are 834x480... in 3.2 screens! totally nuts! Raster, got a link to any pictures of these magic phones ? -aW IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Trac down?
Hi OpenMoko team, it looks like your Trac at http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ is down? Roland -- (GNU) PGP ID: 0x4D385570 Weblog: http://blog.mxchange.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Is case design changing for GTA03?
I'm almost sure I read a comment saying (in passing) that Freerunner case design will change for GTA03. Is the change strictly to accommodate the new 3.5mm plug for the headset, or are other changes being considered? thx. Ron K. Jeffries http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: London Groupsales
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:00:35PM +0100, Andy Selby wrote: I was going to sign up with the London groupbuy, but nobody has asserted themselves to be the main purchaser. HantsLUG's groupbuy is a more attractive prospect because it is organized through an existing LUG and includes notable people such as Andy Smith and Alan Pope so there's less chance of them running off with your money. It should be pointed out that neither Andy nor Alan has volunteered to do anything with the Hants group buy other than buy their phones. I'm the one doing the organisation. They're purely acting as users on this one. However, if I steal their money (and/or yours), they know where I live and can break my fingers until I give it back... :) Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- Geek, n.: Circus sideshow performer specialising in the --- eating of live animals. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg, iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) Well were all those 'never see them' people linux users and interested in openmoko? Haha we might just all be gifted people ! :D On 6/7/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: ... Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than 20/20 and i use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can read my miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen - they all complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i want anyone to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast majority of other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself out of this - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an exception to the rule. Hi there, I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to personally compare VGA QVGA 2 phone screens. However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is generally quite visible to me. Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for me, be better for displaying webpages PDFs - I'll be able to fit more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller text. So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?). Stroller. it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i never see them... :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 12:19:08 -0700 Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Just out of interest, why don't other countries get access to these components sooner? Why do Japanese consumers get them first? Do they pay significantly more than the rest on phones so they're a better market for manufacturers or could openmoko steal a lead here in the rest of the world? Might it be an idea to appeal to these component manufacturers competitive sides and say if you give us the specs to write open drivers we can give you sales in the rest of the world? japanese phones are all about tech specs - and that's it. well that and looking sexy (nice design/cases). usability is pretty poor. their software and ui's are atrocious mostly. but that doesn't matter because they can do the i'm cooler than you. my phone has more pixels! (irrespective if they can even use more than 10% of the features of the phone, nor see the pixels they have so many of...) :) Regards Dave On Sat, 2008-06-07 at 16:51 +0800, Wilkinson, Alex wrote: 0n Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:46:57PM +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on future OM phones. The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which is better than what you find on a typical smart phone. you haven't been to japan lately. a whole host of their phones are 834x480... in 3.2 screens! totally nuts! Raster, got a link to any pictures of these magic phones ? -aW IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:08:05 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels very smooth. it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers. and a very good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still HALF the pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen - we'd have better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave about how great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's dpi is I would also like to have a better screen on the iPhone! If you open a web page you have always to zoom in the first step. pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as hell has not It would still be approx. 30% better than a QVGA 2'8... stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and reality seem to show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell. I have now thought a lot about why they have chossen 320x480. Most probably, they have spent a lot of money and useability research to find the **best compromise** between number of pixels, dpi, speed, readibility, information density and cost. Conclusion: * QVGA is worse (!) than the best compromise (as benchmarked by the iPhone) * VGA is better to use - which has its price. also screens available at the time of development, would have factored in, cost, but remember - they posess a massive amount more compute grunt to drive their screen. we posess much less, so for the cpu power we have qvga is the equivalent of 320x480 on the iphone - if we follow the above logic. So how should one decide between two contradicting requirements? In the view of openness and unknown future applications, I would pay the price to go beyond the best compromise. Even if it needs a more expensive processor to get the speed. this is the thing - for now, processor isnt changing. so - it's resolution, or speed that has to give (or features graphically). -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:46:28 +0200 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings, to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option. Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'. I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution. vga to qvga for gta03 is a drop-in replacement. same size, form-factor, manufacturer, etc. etc. - so as such it fits in with evolution. as it is a drop-in, it is a decision that can be changed easily (for at least a while). for now we have a vga screen on the gta03. i asked this after a talk with will and i wanted to gauge what people would really think about qvga. i'm fairly agnostic about vga vs qvga myself - i'm on the fence with it. i see the benefits both ways. if we could have i'd have liked an intermediate res (eg 480x272), but we won't. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:51:37 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 0n Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:46:57PM +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on future OM phones. The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which is better than what you find on a typical smart phone. you haven't been to japan lately. a whole host of their phones are 834x480... in 3.2 screens! totally nuts! Raster, got a link to any pictures of these magic phones ? http://www.au.kddi.com/seihin/ichiran/cdma1x_win/w63sa/index.html 800x480 2.8 http://www.au.kddi.com/english/product/lineup/w61s/index.html 800x480 2.8 others too... -aW IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping details
Heterogeneous 10 packs? Do you know yet if I can buy 9 US phones and 1 EU phone in a single 10 pack? Thanks, Vinc On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 6:33 AM, Joachim Steiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Simon Matthews wrote: What courier companies/the postal service and shipping options (express versus normal etc) will you be using to ship the phones (only UPS or others as well?) ups. Will you be offering the option of having the shipments insured? Do you know how much the insurance will cost. I can't find much information on the UPS web site on insurance. dunno, but i guess they are. What payment options will you have. visa, master, jcb or so.. no amex, no paypal atleast thats what i know and whats prepared. -- Joachim Steiger Openmoko Central Services ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
IMHO: You can drive a VGA screen at QVGA, but you can't drive a QVGA screen at VGA... Cheers, Federico On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:16 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:46:28 +0200 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings, to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option. Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'. I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution. vga to qvga for gta03 is a drop-in replacement. same size, form-factor, manufacturer, etc. etc. - so as such it fits in with evolution. as it is a drop-in, it is a decision that can be changed easily (for at least a while). for now we have a vga screen on the gta03. i asked this after a talk with will and i wanted to gauge what people would really think about qvga. i'm fairly agnostic about vga vs qvga myself - i'm on the fence with it. i see the benefits both ways. if we could have i'd have liked an intermediate res (eg 480x272), but we won't. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: japanese phones are all about tech specs - and that's it. well that and looking sexy (nice design/cases). usability is pretty poor. their software and ui's are atrocious mostly. but that doesn't matter because they can do the i'm cooler than you. my phone has more pixels! (irrespective if they can even use more than 10% of the features of the phone, nor see the pixels they have so many of...) :) I think the high resolution / high DPI might come in handy when displaying those complex kanji characters. So maybe it's not just about having better tech specs... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
Thanks for the response and don't take this the wrong way but it doesn't really answer my question. :) Openmoko could take these sweet spec components and do stuff with them. That would lead to increased sales for these component manufacturers. It's in their interest to make them, and hopefully therefore the specs, available to you. 1) Why don't they make the components available to anyone other than the manufacturers for phones meant for the japanese market, even those who wouldn't care about open specs? Regards Dave On Sun, 2008-06-08 at 10:28 +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 12:19:08 -0700 Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Just out of interest, why don't other countries get access to these components sooner? Why do Japanese consumers get them first? Do they pay significantly more than the rest on phones so they're a better market for manufacturers or could openmoko steal a lead here in the rest of the world? Might it be an idea to appeal to these component manufacturers competitive sides and say if you give us the specs to write open drivers we can give you sales in the rest of the world? japanese phones are all about tech specs - and that's it. well that and looking sexy (nice design/cases). usability is pretty poor. their software and ui's are atrocious mostly. but that doesn't matter because they can do the i'm cooler than you. my phone has more pixels! (irrespective if they can even use more than 10% of the features of the phone, nor see the pixels they have so many of...) :) Regards Dave On Sat, 2008-06-07 at 16:51 +0800, Wilkinson, Alex wrote: 0n Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:46:57PM +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on future OM phones. The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which is better than what you find on a typical smart phone. you haven't been to japan lately. a whole host of their phones are 834x480... in 3.2 screens! totally nuts! Raster, got a link to any pictures of these magic phones ? -aW IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am So 8. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) No it's not at all the question - other than for academic insight. If a VGA-screen isn't much more expensive than a Q, if we can drive a VGA as Q without problem or speed-penalty to do sane video etc., and if it's correct we used a VGA so far - we won't change this. No way! cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg, iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. Without being able to see them side by side I'm always going to want the higher spec. I have my blackberry 7130g set to the smallest font size available and wish it could go smaller. I think the screen is 240 x 260, 2.4. However most other people have trouble reading my bb, so I'm willing to say I'm in the minority. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is case design changing for GTA03?
Am So 8. Juni 2008 schrieb Ron K. Jeffries: I'm almost sure I read a comment saying (in passing) that Freerunner case design will change for GTA03. Is the change strictly to accommodate the new 3.5mm plug for the headset, or are other changes being considered? We also got a camera on GTA03. Changes will be significantly more noticeable than only making a 2.5mm hole 3.5mm ;-). Let me put it this way: probably we won't even consider to ship a lanyard for accessory. ;-) cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Trac down?
Roland Häder wrote: Hi OpenMoko team, it looks like your Trac at http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ is down? thanks for noting. fixed. -- Joachim Steiger Openmoko Central Services ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is case design changing for GTA03?
We also got a camera on GTA03. cheers jOERG Any specs of the camera. Please go for good quality optics and maybe 3x optical zoom (the neo is thick enough i guess :-) rather that higher mega pixels on a cheap sensor. Except for the SE K750/800/850i series and Nokia N95 series (and some Japanese phones like my Sharp 903) I have not seen a camera phone where the photos are usable when transfered to the computer or printed. In most cases the camera is just there to add a feature to feed the public coolness factor so the price can be increased. Rakshat -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg, iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. Without being able to see them side by side I'm always going to want the higher spec. I have my blackberry 7130g set to the smallest font size available and wish it could go smaller. I think the screen is 240 x 260, 2.4. However most other people have trouble reading my bb, so I'm willing to say I'm in the minority. I'm pretty surprised the QVGA idea's getting any traction. It's 2008. The GTA02 can be a little old-fashioned in exchange for it being open, but the smartphone software market is opening up, and people will become more willing to exchange some less openness for better hardware. The Freerunner I'll buy, but only due to current desires for a new toy to hack with. Its successors will need to be some advanced hardware -- freedom's only good on a platform that stays worthwhile. Frankly, I don't think too many people on this list are terribly price sensitive -- we're putting up with a lot of variability in shipping dates, hundreds of $$ for a phone whose software stacks will barely be operational at launch, and the lack of the sort of live support you'd get out of a decent phone shop. Put together a new hardware platform after this, and charge us for it! The novelty of openness is only worth so much by itself. This is all in the most sincere support of OM, but what kind of friend would I be if I didn't tell you the whole truth? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
The big companies making these hi-tech electronic parts are probably only interested in orders it the hundred of thousands if not millions of parts. There is less risk to them of intellectual property being stolen or parts copied having a few customers buying large quantities at low margins than lots of smaller companies buying small numbers at higher margins and it is also less hassle. It is probably not worth the big companies to get their lawyers to draw up the contracts for small quantities (we all know how much lawyers cost!) Then there are the cosy exclusive deals that only the big companies have the power to negotiate. I would think it has been a big advantage for Openmoko having FIC behind it when trying to source all the specialised components. Even then they are still a small fish in a very large and expensive pond. On Sat, 2008-06-07 at 19:15 -0700, Dave O'Connor wrote: Thanks for the response and don't take this the wrong way but it doesn't really answer my question. :) Openmoko could take these sweet spec components and do stuff with them. That would lead to increased sales for these component manufacturers. It's in their interest to make them, and hopefully therefore the specs, available to you. 1) Why don't they make the components available to anyone other than the manufacturers for phones meant for the japanese market, even those who wouldn't care about open specs? Regards Dave ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
