Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Tue Nov 20 09:52:07 CET 2007 Attila Csipa plists at prometheus.org.yu wrote: On Monday 19 November 2007 19:01:14 Mark wrote: My interest in the Neo from the the beginning has been the possibility of running Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice on it. All I would need Are you really-really sure you want to run those exact applications on an embedded device with 128MB RAM and =400MHz embedded CPU ? From your usage pattern an eeepc does make more sense than the Neo (although it seems less and less appealing here as the prices have ballooned from 200$ to well over 300E) Yes, I'm absolutely certain of that. I don't plan on doing heavy-duty computing, but I do need to be able to open existing files and do light editing, as well as use full versions of Firefox and Thunderbird so I can use my existing plugins and have full compatibility with Web pages. Adblock and NoScript would help somewhat with the load on Web pages. I realize that it's going to run these apps much slower than a desktop (but my main machine right now is a 1 GHz VIA EPIA M1 Mini-ITX running kubuntu, so I'm not used to lightning speed anyway), but if it works at all I'll be happy. The whole point is to replace both my Visor and my Laptop. The Visor is on its last legs, and I'm tired of lugging around a big, heavy laptop with all its accessories. The thing that attracts me to the Neo is that there are many times when I absolutely cannot lug around something even the size of the Eee PC, but would really benefit from having my files handy and accessible, not to mention the Internet. My laptop is 7 years old and the backlight recently died, so I have to find a way to replace it anyway. I originally bought it as a desktop replacement, but it was very much overkill since I never got completely away from my desktop, and the applications I used away from home were only the ones I describe here: word processing, email and Web. I did occasionally use GPS and mapping software for navigation, which would definitely be a plus, but as I have a Garmin StreetPilot that's not critical. That said, I am very interesting in the possibilities for the Neo with Geocaching and OSM. In the same vein, my existing cellphone is a very basic phone. I'm not the least bit interested in text messaging (although the phone is capable) or any of the other fluff that you can't buy a phone without these days. I'll never text message any more than I ever got caught up in IRC or IM. Voice is much quicker and more efficient. The one killer app the Neo needs with respect to phone function is voice recognition for hands-free dialing. My current phone doesn't even have that, though my previous one did. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
Anyone after a laptop replacement should consider the Asus eeePc. It's Linux based, cheap (£220 UKP) small and fairly rugged. Hey, don't discount the NEO1973+Apple Wireless Keyboard idea, also. Its a very neat package, and while it is two things to carry around, its two very nice things which work well together .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Monday 19 November 2007 19:01:14 Mark wrote: My interest in the Neo from the the beginning has been the possibility of running Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice on it. All I would need Are you really-really sure you want to run those exact applications on an embedded device with 128MB RAM and =400MHz embedded CPU ? From your usage pattern an eeepc does make more sense than the Neo (although it seems less and less appealing here as the prices have ballooned from 200$ to well over 300E) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Use Neo w/out removing from pocket (was: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement)
I'm well aware that the input side of things is not addressed yet, but I think we can explore the video side without having to wait for a solution on the input side. It will come soon enough, I'm sure. Especially once we start showing what we can do on the output side. Bluetooth input devices work great with the neo1973 already .. I tote my Apple Bluetooth keyboard and the neo alongside my monster-sized powerbook, and it seems like its only weeks away until I can leave the powerbook at home and just bring a full python development environment in the neo for hacking .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Saturday 17 November 2007 21:09, Joshua Layne wrote: Ted Lemon wrote: On Sat, 2007-11-17 at 11:19 -0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: I'd like to explore adding a head mounted display to the Neo, like the i-glasses PC/SVGA Head Mounted Display at about $700. Would require an off-board SVGA controller, which could be prototyped with a USB SVGA controller, assuming Linux drivers can be found. I think when you add all the pieces together, this isn't going to be a cost-effective solution, and it's not going to perform well either. Head mounted displays need to get higher resolution before they're worth the money. What's the point of having a six-foot-tall screen in your visual field if it's only 640x480? And having direct access to the frame buffer makes a big difference in performance. I like the way you're thinking, though - if it were possible to get WUXGA glasses, that would completely solve the portable display problem. And I don't think it's out of the question - it's just too soon. The parts you'd need to make one are only just becoming available. But it's with this in mind that I mention the DVI output - you really don't want to plug VGA into a display like that. agreed. meanwhile, and I am well aware that this isn't FIC/OpenMoko hardware, but for a portable laptop replacement, I think the upcoming Nokia N810 is a pretty good fit. no phone, but that's what the neo is for. still waiting on the unification device - one handheld to rule them all. Your not the only one. The Nokia N810 has 2 advantages compare to the NEO, it has a keyboard and a slightly bigger display. However, it does force me to carry two devices, which is a major disadvantage. Maybe one day there will be a NEO like device with a proper foldable display. Or perhaps a build in beamer of some sort. Then add the laser projection keyboard thinkgeek sells and find all hope of a decent battery live is gone ;-) AVee -- Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : Your not the only one. The Nokia N810 has 2 advantages compare to the NEO, it has a keyboard and a slightly bigger display. However, it does force me to carry two devices, which is a major disadvantage. Maybe one day there will be a NEO like device with a proper foldable display. Or perhaps a build in beamer of some sort. Then add the laser projection keyboard thinkgeek sells and find all hope of a decent battery live is gone ;-) AVee Anyone after a laptop replacement should consider the Asus eeePc. It's Linux based, cheap (£220 UKP) small and fairly rugged. It's a good unit for testing out mobile Linux ideas on since it has a smallish screen (7inch 800x480) and limited storage. It also has only flash storage and so it's close to being a mobile phone in effect. --- G O Jones ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Use Neo w/out removing from pocket (was: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement)
On Mon, 2007-11-19 at 10:35 -0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: What sort of applications make sense this way? What sort of new applications does this allow? I think the two big killer apps are laptop replacement and watching video. But that's going to require hardware acceleration. Long term, you can imagine using something like this as a HUD, but I don't know if that's actually going to see any use - we won't know until someone tries to sell one and we see if people are actually willing to look that silly. I think running something like this without wires is way in the future, but I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong. The trouble with wireless is power consumption for a high-bandwidth video signal. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
Ted sed: What I'd like to see is someone (FIC?) making a computer *like* the Neo that's a real laptop replacement. 1Ghz ARM, DVI out, 640x480 screen just like what we have in the Neo, runs slow when it's on batteries, fast when it's plugged in, a couple gigabytes of flash, an external hard drive for when you're near power, and Bob's your uncle. There are already devices like that on the open market...UMPC's. Granted, they are bigger than a cell phone, but are much smaller than even a lightweight laptop, and might suit your needs. I just took delivery of a Raon Everun UMPC yesterday. 800x480 resolution 4.8 touch sensitive screen, with the whole device at 170x83x25mm in size (about double the size of an iPhone in all directions). 7.5 hour battery life. Powered by a AMD 600mhz processor, 512MB memory, with 60GB of disk, 802.11bg, bluetooth and even a HSPDA slot for a SIM card (though I haven't tried that yet!). Weights about a pound with the standard battery in it. But it's not a cell phone by any stretch...not sure if you can even use the SIM card for cell access, and if you could, at a half kilo, it would be quite a brick to hold to your ear. What was amazing is that it was less than a grand in cost! Comes with WinXP only though ;-( . I would have preferred Ubuntu or some other variant of Linux, but for my demo purposes that will work since all I need really is Firefox for what I'm doing. More info and pics here if anyone is interested: http://www.raondigital.com/fnt_english/ As someone else said, the lack of memory in the planned OpenMoko hardware will likely be the critical limiting factor in what you can do in the way of more complex apps. Then again, I have an unlocked iPhone (only way to get it running here in Canuck land) and you can run some pretty decent stuff on it with good response. Problem there, of course, is that it's a closed platform and requires hacks to unlock it, so an open phone platform is very attractive to me. At some point, it is good to remember the old adage: Horses for courses. Andrzej Jan Taramina Coalese Corporation: Making Integration Easier http://www.coalese.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
Ted sed: What I'd like to see is someone (FIC?) making a computer *like* the Neo that's a real laptop replacement. 1Ghz ARM, DVI out, 640x480 screen just like what we have in the Neo, runs slow when it's on batteries, fast when it's plugged in, a couple gigabytes of flash, an external hard drive for when you're near power, and Bob's your uncle. There are already devices like that on the open market...UMPC's. Granted, they are bigger than a cell phone, but are much smaller than even a lightweight laptop, and might suit your needs. I just took delivery of a Raon Everun UMPC yesterday. 800x480 resolution 4.8 touch sensitive screen, with the whole device at 170x83x25mm in size (about double the size of an iPhone in all directions). 7.5 hour battery life. Powered by a AMD 600mhz processor, 512MB memory, with 60GB of disk, 802.11bg, bluetooth and even a HSPDA slot for a SIM card (though I haven't tried that yet!). Weights about a pound with the standard battery in it. But it's not a cell phone by any stretch...not sure if you can even use the SIM card for cell access, and if you could, at a half kilo, it would be quite a brick to hold to your ear. What was amazing is that it was less than a grand in cost! Comes with WinXP only though ;-( . I would have preferred Ubuntu or some other variant of Linux, but for my demo purposes that will work since all I need really is Firefox for what I'm doing. More info and pics here if anyone is interested: http://www.raondigital.com/fnt_english/ As someone else said, the lack of memory in the planned OpenMoko hardware will likely be the critical limiting factor in what you can do in the way of more complex apps. Then again, I have an unlocked iPhone (only way to get it running here in Canuck land) and you can run some pretty decent stuff on it with good response. Problem there, of course, is that it's a closed platform and requires hacks to unlock it, so an open phone platform is very attractive to me. At some point, it is good to remember the old adage: Horses for courses. Andrzej Jan Taramina Chaeron Corporation: Enterprise System Solutions http://www.chaeron.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
I really like your idea. I also think that GTA02 will have enough power for a small notebook-replacement for a bit hacking, writing or something like this. Up until my catastrophic u-boot and debug board failure (grr..) I had been using my GTA01 for the last couple of weeks just fine as a really, really nice little python development machine .. I got an Apple Wireless Keyboard hooked up with it over bluetooth, and the combination of a fine little keyboard wirelessly connected to the GTA01 is indeed a very nice laptop replacement. With a little bit of Terminal-font love, a well-integrated VNC client, and perhaps some stability in the windowing department, for sure the GTA01 - and thus the GTA02 - could function very nicely as a laptop replacement. I really look forward to that eventuality, once I get a working and stable GTA01 rig up and running again .. Count me in for a 6-pack of GTA02's, while we're at it. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Saturday 17 November 2007 09:11, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: On 09:56:25 2007-11-17 Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really like your idea. I also think that GTA02 will have enough power for a small notebook-replacement for a bit hacking, writing or something like this. Here's my 0.02 euro-cents... Why not a laptop chassis with a tft in and an extra battery pack integrated and keyboard(combo usb/bt/wireless)(hell even a mouse of some sorts) and then just have a plugin slot for the neo to hook in(of course this would require a bit of hardware addon to the neo(a vga/dvi/other) port but it could work out nicely... And have both displays be able to work at the same time(randr1.2) so that one could for example have a logitech g15 like display on the small screen of the neo and full vm on the tft... If I can manage to push aside the feeling that people should just buy something like the Asus EEE PC rather than going this route... Why not have the neo screen act as the trackpad, ie backlight off then all you'd need to supply is a keyboard and 'big' screen... Andy / ScaredyCat ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On 09:56:25 2007-11-17 Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really like your idea. I also think that GTA02 will have enough power for a small notebook-replacement for a bit hacking, writing or something like this. Here's my 0.02 euro-cents... Why not a laptop chassis with a tft in and an extra battery pack integrated and keyboard(combo usb/bt/wireless)(hell even a mouse of some sorts) and then just have a plugin slot for the neo to hook in(of course this would require a bit of hardware addon to the neo(a vga/dvi/other) port but it could work out nicely... And have both displays be able to work at the same time(randr1.2) so that one could for example have a logitech g15 like display on the small screen of the neo and full vm on the tft... -- Andraž ruskie Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
Why not a laptop chassis with a tft in and an extra battery pack integrated and keyboard(combo usb/bt/wireless)(hell even a mouse of some sorts) and then just have a plugin slot for the neo to hook in(of course this would require a bit of hardware addon to the neo(a vga/dvi/other) port but it could work out nicely... why not indeed? get on with it! build one! make a prototype! And have both displays be able to work at the same time(randr1.2) so that one could for example have a logitech g15 like display on the small screen of the neo and full vm on the tft... or even just have the capability of plugging in a few extra neo's if you want the screen real-estate .. ;) ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Sat, 2007-11-17 at 10:11 +0100, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Why not a laptop chassis The laptop form factor forces poor ergonomics. I always bring a keyboard with me when I travel so that I can have the screen up high and the keyboard down low. So for me the built-in keyboard is just wasted space. And when you take that and the CPU out, all you're really left with is the TFT. The really great thing about the TFT is that because it doesn't have the crown jewels on it (your data!), you can put it in luggage and check it, and the worst that happens on the other end is that you have to get a replacement if someone stole it. Checking a laptop isn't such a fortunate plan. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Sat, 2007-11-17 at 09:29 +, Andy Powell wrote: If I can manage to push aside the feeling that people should just buy something like the Asus EEE PC rather than going this route... No bluetooth. No DVI out. Doesn't fit in your pocket, unless you have a really big pocket. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
I'd like to explore adding a head mounted display to the Neo, like the i-glasses PC/SVGA Head Mounted Display at about $700. Would require an off-board SVGA controller, which could be prototyped with a USB SVGA controller, assuming Linux drivers can be found. Thoughts? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Sat, 2007-11-17 at 11:19 -0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: I'd like to explore adding a head mounted display to the Neo, like the i-glasses PC/SVGA Head Mounted Display at about $700. Would require an off-board SVGA controller, which could be prototyped with a USB SVGA controller, assuming Linux drivers can be found. I think when you add all the pieces together, this isn't going to be a cost-effective solution, and it's not going to perform well either. Head mounted displays need to get higher resolution before they're worth the money. What's the point of having a six-foot-tall screen in your visual field if it's only 640x480? And having direct access to the frame buffer makes a big difference in performance. I like the way you're thinking, though - if it were possible to get WUXGA glasses, that would completely solve the portable display problem. And I don't think it's out of the question - it's just too soon. The parts you'd need to make one are only just becoming available. But it's with this in mind that I mention the DVI output - you really don't want to plug VGA into a display like that. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
Ted Lemon wrote: On Sat, 2007-11-17 at 11:19 -0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: I'd like to explore adding a head mounted display to the Neo, like the i-glasses PC/SVGA Head Mounted Display at about $700. Would require an off-board SVGA controller, which could be prototyped with a USB SVGA controller, assuming Linux drivers can be found. I think when you add all the pieces together, this isn't going to be a cost-effective solution, and it's not going to perform well either. Head mounted displays need to get higher resolution before they're worth the money. What's the point of having a six-foot-tall screen in your visual field if it's only 640x480? And having direct access to the frame buffer makes a big difference in performance. I like the way you're thinking, though - if it were possible to get WUXGA glasses, that would completely solve the portable display problem. And I don't think it's out of the question - it's just too soon. The parts you'd need to make one are only just becoming available. But it's with this in mind that I mention the DVI output - you really don't want to plug VGA into a display like that. agreed. meanwhile, and I am well aware that this isn't FIC/OpenMoko hardware, but for a portable laptop replacement, I think the upcoming Nokia N810 is a pretty good fit. no phone, but that's what the neo is for. still waiting on the unification device - one handheld to rule them all. j. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 23:11 +0100, Erland Lewin wrote: I imagine a kit the size of a regular book for the Neo containing a fresnel lens with a frame for attaching to the phone, a foldable keyboard, a small mouse, and a battery pack loadable with, say, 2 regular 'C' size batteries. Ted Lemon replied: The keyboard needs to be an old manual typewriterkeyboard, and the UI should be white on black for maximum compatibility with Brazil. ;-) Seriously, though, I think this is a cool idea, but once you have a proper focusing system it's probably not going to be lighter than a laptop, so what's the point. You don't need a focusing system, just the lens held at a constant distance from, and parrallell to the screen. So this part doesn't have to weight much at all, just some foldable plastic brackets to hold the phone behind the screen. What I'd like to see is someone (FIC?) making a computer *like* the Neo that's a real laptop replacement. 1Ghz ARM, DVI out, 640x480 screen just like what we have in the Neo, runs slow when it's on batteries, fast when it's plugged in, a couple gigabytes of flash, an external hard drive for when you're near power, and Bob's your uncle. Don't forget more RAM - I think the 64 MB RAM or whatever's in the Neo would be the biggest performance limitation as it is. Also, if I understand correctly, if the processor consumes little power when stopped/idle, it's energywise equivalent to use a fast processor for a short time or use a slow processor for longer (each gate switch/operation consumes the same amount of power regardless of speed). However, I've seen two arguments why slower speeds might be better anyway - one is that batteries prefer an even power drain rather than spiky, and that at lower speeds you could possibly lower the CPU core voltage, which would lower the energy consumption per operation. You can pack a monitor in your luggage when you travel, and have a nice setup wherever you land. It would fit in your pocket when you're flying, but be powerful enough to actually use when you arrive. It could be a bit bigger than the Neo, and if it had a GSM modem and GPS in it, it'd double as a phone. Neo's big brother, you might say. I'm not so sure about packing a monitor, but we're definitely thinking along the same lines. One critical question is how much CPU power you need. I still believe that with lean programming, 400 MHz should be enough for standard applications such as word processing, editing presentations, email and web. At least if you strip off the 'frills'. Think Word 5.1 for Macs which ran on 8 MHz 68000 processors. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
I really like your idea. I also think that GTA02 will have enough power for a small notebook-replacement for a bit hacking, writing or something like this. If the lens would be mounted correctly I think this would be really cool. On software-side this could be done with using a new profile (like: Loud, Silent, Offline/Flight-Mode), named Laptop-Mode or so. This profile could switch from the matchbox-gtk-GUI to a full windowmanager in landscape-mode, let's say e17, which is running fine :) On 11/15/07, Erland Lewin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please let me bounce an idea off the list... Given that the Neo1973 has similar processing power and screen resolution to what desktop machines had not too long ago, I think it would be cool if the user interface had a 'mode' where the Neo could work as a laptop replacement. I imagine a kit the size of a regular book for the Neo containing a fresnel lens with a frame for attaching to the phone, a foldable keyboard, a small mouse, and a battery pack loadable with, say, 2 regular 'C' size batteries. The keyboard and mouse could be either Bluetooth for wireless convenience or USB for use on airplanes. The kit could be carried separately from the phone when you anticipate wanting but not having access to a computer. The fresnel lens would be mounted about 10-20cm in front of the Neo (in landscape orientation), and magnify the 2.8 283 DPI screen to, say, an 8.5 94 dpi or an 11.3 71 dpi screen image. This would suit the Neo's high DPI screen well. The battery pack would allow the Neo to run for six times longer than the built in battery, so it would last for the longest flights. The Neo could run both as an X server thin client for 'heavy' applications run on a server over WiFi (or VNC), and host some local applications (simple office suite, games, development tools?...) for offline work. This 'mode' would have a regular full screen desktop look and feel with a lightweight window manager (e17, rasterman?). When you're done you disconnect the Neo and pack up your 'kit' in a small bag or case and return the Neo to your pocket or wherever you keep your phone. Sure, it wouldn't be as nice as having a separate laptop, but considering weight, size and price still an attractive compromise in some situations. This would take the Neo to where no phone has gone before, and show off the power of a 'real', desktop OS under the shell. Comments? (I don't have a Neo (waiting for the GTA02), so I can't try it. But I tested a fresnel lens with my Sony Ericsson P910, and I think it could work.) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Friday 16 November 2007 02:11, Ted Lemon wrote: On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 23:11 +0100, Erland Lewin wrote: I imagine a kit the size of a regular book for the Neo containing a fresnel lens with a frame for attaching to the phone, a foldable keyboard, a small mouse, and a battery pack loadable with, say, 2 regular 'C' size batteries. The keyboard needs to be an old manual typewriterkeyboard, and the UI should be white on black for maximum compatibility with Brazil. Seriously, though, I think this is a cool idea, but once you have a proper focusing system it's probably not going to be lighter than a laptop, so what's the point. What I'd like to see is someone (FIC?) making a computer *like* the Neo that's a real laptop replacement. 1Ghz ARM, DVI out, 640x480 screen just like what we have in the Neo, runs slow when it's on batteries, fast when it's plugged in, a couple gigabytes of flash, an external hard drive for when you're near power, and Bob's your uncle. Frankly, the screen size is becoming a problem for most desktop apps. I have a computer hooked up to a TV in my livingroom which is running at 640x480 and that's is really annoying at times. Enough to make me walk up the stairs to a real PC. A lot of desktop apllications simply assume (rightly so) you have at least 800x600 available. You must adapt the userinterface of most programs to this resolution to be able to use it sensibly. You can pack a monitor in your luggage when you travel, and have a nice setup wherever you land. It would fit in your pocket when you're flying, but be powerful enough to actually use when you arrive. It could be a bit bigger than the Neo, and if it had a GSM modem and GPS in it, it'd double as a phone. Neo's big brother, you might say. Or you they could add display connectors to a next version of the neo. And sell a laptop sized tft screen as an accessoire. The next neo is likely to be faster anyway. I could see the use of that, it would make me think twice about buying a laptop. (OTOH, when the next neo has a heigher resolution display the lens thing might work well enough after all) AVee -- I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing... -- Thomas Jefferson ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
Please let me bounce an idea off the list... Given that the Neo1973 has similar processing power and screen resolution to what desktop machines had not too long ago, I think it would be cool if the user interface had a 'mode' where the Neo could work as a laptop replacement. I imagine a kit the size of a regular book for the Neo containing a fresnel lens with a frame for attaching to the phone, a foldable keyboard, a small mouse, and a battery pack loadable with, say, 2 regular 'C' size batteries. The keyboard and mouse could be either Bluetooth for wireless convenience or USB for use on airplanes. The kit could be carried separately from the phone when you anticipate wanting but not having access to a computer. The fresnel lens would be mounted about 10-20cm in front of the Neo (in landscape orientation), and magnify the 2.8 283 DPI screen to, say, an 8.5 94 dpi or an 11.3 71 dpi screen image. This would suit the Neo's high DPI screen well. The battery pack would allow the Neo to run for six times longer than the built in battery, so it would last for the longest flights. The Neo could run both as an X server thin client for 'heavy' applications run on a server over WiFi (or VNC), and host some local applications (simple office suite, games, development tools?...) for offline work. This 'mode' would have a regular full screen desktop look and feel with a lightweight window manager (e17, rasterman?). When you're done you disconnect the Neo and pack up your 'kit' in a small bag or case and return the Neo to your pocket or wherever you keep your phone. Sure, it wouldn't be as nice as having a separate laptop, but considering weight, size and price still an attractive compromise in some situations. This would take the Neo to where no phone has gone before, and show off the power of a 'real', desktop OS under the shell. Comments? (I don't have a Neo (waiting for the GTA02), so I can't try it. But I tested a fresnel lens with my Sony Ericsson P910, and I think it could work.) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
But the GTA02 is 400 MHz. I've got a 650 MHz laptop at home that runs Windows XP just fine. That's over 7 years old. I think the 400 MHz processor could handle a lot of the simple apps I'd want while on the move. I plan to use the GTA02 much as Erland describes (minus the lens). -Steven On Nov 15, 2007 4:17 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erland Lewin wrote: Given that the Neo1973 has similar processing power and screen resolution to what desktop machines had not too long ago For the Perl hackers among us: $quote =~ s/not too long/over seven years/ ; It's been a LONG LONG time since I've had a 200MHz processor running on my desktop. Just my $0.02 ;o) The lens idea sounds neat, and I believe others have tested bluetooth keyboards. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On 15 Nov 2007, at 22:32, Steven ** wrote: But the GTA02 is 400 MHz. I've got a 650 MHz laptop at home that runs Windows XP just fine. That's over 7 years old. I think the 400 MHz processor could handle a lot of the simple apps I'd want while on the move. I plan to use the GTA02 much as Erland describes (minus the lens). -Steven But you're falling for the megahertz myth. The clock speed comparison doesn't work across different processor families. The ARM core is a RISC design that originated in the Acorn Archimedes computer in the mid 80s. But there are many different core designs each with different MHz requirements. It was the XScale which brought in the high clock speeds, but they were slower than the previous Intel ARM chips that were half the clock speed. Anyway, so long as you're running Linux and complex apps designed for the desktop then you may not achieve the speed of a laptop. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973/OpenMoko as a laptop replacement
On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 23:11 +0100, Erland Lewin wrote: I imagine a kit the size of a regular book for the Neo containing a fresnel lens with a frame for attaching to the phone, a foldable keyboard, a small mouse, and a battery pack loadable with, say, 2 regular 'C' size batteries. The keyboard needs to be an old manual typewriterkeyboard, and the UI should be white on black for maximum compatibility with Brazil. Seriously, though, I think this is a cool idea, but once you have a proper focusing system it's probably not going to be lighter than a laptop, so what's the point. What I'd like to see is someone (FIC?) making a computer *like* the Neo that's a real laptop replacement. 1Ghz ARM, DVI out, 640x480 screen just like what we have in the Neo, runs slow when it's on batteries, fast when it's plugged in, a couple gigabytes of flash, an external hard drive for when you're near power, and Bob's your uncle. You can pack a monitor in your luggage when you travel, and have a nice setup wherever you land. It would fit in your pocket when you're flying, but be powerful enough to actually use when you arrive. It could be a bit bigger than the Neo, and if it had a GSM modem and GPS in it, it'd double as a phone. Neo's big brother, you might say. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
