Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Ben Burdette wrote: I'd have to say that for the casual or occasional user, there are significant advantages to a web forum. For me, monitoring an active email list like openmoko in my email client is a fairly sizable undertaking - there are many emails per day to look through. I take time several times a day to look through these, or just mark the folder 'read'. If I were only want to look at the forum once every few weeks, then subscribing to the list would be overkill. On the other hand, in order to participate in the list you need to subscribe. So web-search only users are in effect barred from posting. Even if our casual users wanted 70-80 emails a day for something they only use once in a while, its still a hassle to set up if you don't know about email filtering and etc. Lots of people don't. Compare this to the effort needed to visit slashdot. You register once, and you never need to worry about it again. Visit every day or every 6 months, doesn't matter. The other aspect is that you are putting your real email address out there on the internet for lots of people to look at. This means its an excellent place for spammers to harvest email accounts. With a forum your personal data is more anonymous. Plus there is potential for other social networking style things like user profiles - what users are working on, etc. You are exactly correct. Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Although I consider my self a developer and on somewhat on top of technical stuff, I still would prefer a web forum. I think that *most* non-technical people would also be more comfortable with a forum. I'm really not sure what the motive for NOT wanting a forum is, other than people being set in their ways and unwilling to accommodate people less technically proficient as they are. Now, the title of this thread is OK, the forum is coming.. because I thought that someone was going to set one up on at least until FIC/OpenMoko created an official one. I think phpBB is the general consensus. I would do it myself, but my servers are located at my house on a cable modem. I have decent uptime, but it isn't as stable as a box in a noc. I don't mind running it, but would prefer a more stable environment. That said, just let me know if you want me to go ahead and set it up. FYI, you can easily import/export to a different instance if we do want/need to change its location. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: email vs forum (was Re: OK, the forum is coming..)
On 7/25/07, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Um... That doesn't seem to get Gmail to thread the messages at all. You're solution is Just don't use Gmail. Duh!. That's not a valid answer to my question. Before you suggest it, the following is also an invalid response: use Outlook or Thunderbird and download all your messages via POP. I use Gmail. Accept it. Now, if you had a Greasemonkey script that made Gmail thread the messages, that would be acceptable. Threaded view in Gmail client works fine ( running under Firefox 1.5 ). There are few messages here and there which jump out of thread. Maybe you should check your settings or write to google. regards VK PS:- I am also using Gmail. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: email vs forum (was Re: OK, the forum is coming..)
You are talking about flat, web forum style threading, though. What he wants is tree style threading like in the ML archives, Slashdot comments etc. Ortwin On 7/26/07, vivek khurana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/25/07, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Um... That doesn't seem to get Gmail to thread the messages at all. You're solution is Just don't use Gmail. Duh!. That's not a valid answer to my question. Before you suggest it, the following is also an invalid response: use Outlook or Thunderbird and download all your messages via POP. I use Gmail. Accept it. Now, if you had a Greasemonkey script that made Gmail thread the messages, that would be acceptable. Threaded view in Gmail client works fine ( running under Firefox 1.5 ). There are few messages here and there which jump out of thread. Maybe you should check your settings or write to google. regards VK PS:- I am also using Gmail. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Valerio Bruno wrote: Forum is a better tool for heavy communication than ML, and it's the only one That it is a better tool is just an assertion that I don't concur with. usable by non-technic newbie user (like a 14 years old boy that plays with his phone.) Well, 14 years are strongly technic, IMHO. Well, not every 14 years old writes compilers for fun, as I did. And I'm old enough that email was not really available back then for a teenager :( Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGqMiGHJdudm4KnO0RAggRAJwNiqj1TvXmkhjNsFI8Q11xW5mFpgCgpe5M u2rtpl3zqVwdUG4885Y8mr8= =cFlF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, a newbie forum is fine, do as you like. Although one might argue that you are splitting the community in two. The problem is that you need a communication tool that is appropriate for newbies. And it must be appropriate for power user, or you'll have trouble to get enough answers for the questions your newbies ask. Now we don't have newbies: so the only 'fear' is to lose newcomers newbies and some (lot of?) power users. And so? What's the problem if THEY prefer webforum againist ML/NNTP ? Now, if the FIC decides that they want to have forums (and notice that typically mobile manufacturers don't have forums on their site), they will have the additional option of paying the answerers. If they're able to sell new service, why not? This has nothing to do with a forum made from the community to the community. But currently, you are advocating an end user newbie communication tool, for a device that can (perhaps?) dial a number without hacking a Unix command line. And when we'll be in third phase? and when other OpenMoko phones are released? We're preparing ourself. You should consider the fact that, in a pure FOSS market, you have newbies that post questions and advanced users that answer questions. Now, it's easy to find newbies, it's way harder to get professionals to donate their time to answer questions. This is the same for ML/forum/NNTP. An old newbie is a new power user: we'll have power users with time. Using a tool that is NOT good at heavy communication to make it more hassle for these advanced users is not a good strategy. Forum is a better tool for heavy communication than ML, and it's the only one usable by non-technic newbie user (like a 14 years old boy that plays with his phone.) Valerio ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: email vs forum (was Re: OK, the forum is coming..)
Ehrm.. try looking at the settings, maybe you habe simply deactivated it. Because for me it works pretty fine with the threated view. oh, yes, and by the way, the possibility to format text and include images/links/wathever would be really good for the average user. On 7/25/07, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Um... That doesn't seem to get Gmail to thread the messages at all. You're solution is Just don't use Gmail. Duh!. That's not a valid answer to my question. Before you suggest it, the following is also an invalid response: use Outlook or Thunderbird and download all your messages via POP. I use Gmail. Accept it. Now, if you had a Greasemonkey script that made Gmail thread the messages, that would be acceptable. Thank you, -Steven On 7/25/07, vivek khurana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/25/07, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my questions: 1. Is there a way to get Gmail to thread the messages based on who it was in response to? Yup, admins can set archiving at www.gmane.org. This way you will have archiving as well as threaded view regards VK ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- My corner of the web: http://ramsesoriginal.wordpress.com My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: email vs forum (was Re: OK, the forum is coming..)
I've been mostly silent in this discussion (partially because it's taken me two days to catch up on it), but I have some thoughts/questions. The gist of the argument for email seems to be: 1. You can download all the messages and view them offline 2. Standalone email clients group messages by who they replied to instead of grouping by subject line and then by date 3. Forums suck (in your opinion) I understand that now, but I didn't before because: 1. I use gmail and am always online 2. I use gmail, which does not group messages based on replies 3. I check several forums daily and don't think they suck Forums work for me because: 1. I'm always online 2. Forums have categories. So, I never check the hardware category because I don't do low-level stuff. I watch some other category closely reading every message closely (and reply to some). I occasionally check out the other catagories as well, but only if I have free time. 3. If I post a question or response in a thread, I often have the forum notify me when there is a response. So, even if I don't have a lot of free time, I'll see an email come in saying someone has responded to something I'm directly involved in, so I will take a minute to see what the new message is. 4. In a forum, you can edit a post and easily format your message (I could use HTML in an email, but seems like a lot of people here view email in plaintext and my HTML would just annoy them). So, my questions: 1. Is there a way to get Gmail to thread the messages based on who it was in response to? 2. Is there a way to get a mailing list with categories? So that I can see that a particular category and not worry about the other stuff? I thought that was the point of separate mailing lists, but I get messages ranging from questions on ordering and shipping the phone to problems setting up a build environment to marketing ideas to feature suggests etc. The traffic is getting unmanageably large. (perhaps you manage better than me. but I don't have time to sift through 20 threads with 5-50 responses every day). The result is that I delete entire threads based on the subject. I will probably miss valuable information that might have even been relevant to me because of this. Any ideas on how to reduce the traffic or make it more relevant? -Steven On 7/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 10:45:32AM -0700, Daniel Robinson wrote: The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different forum's is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to address. Probably it is. There are many people *in this community* in the same boat, and in general, those people will be the most knowledgeable and the most valuable sources of information, since they will tend to be more technically oriented, and be the most experienced internet users, and will be plugged in to more numerous sources of information (since email is indeed more efficient for being connected to many different information sources). To state, axiomatically, that mailing lists are more efficient is to attempt proof by assertion. Not trying to prove something -- trying to give benefit of long experience in similar situations. Email is substantially more efficient, because it is intrinsically more powerful. For example: 1) Essentially any functionality a forum can support can be supported by good email clients -- threading, sorting (or categorization), searching, restricted visibility. Converse isn't true (see below). 2) Forums cannot be viewed when you are offline, but email is a store and forward protocol, and works perfectly with only occasional connections to the internet -- you can read your email on a plane; you can't read a forum. 3) A forum, and indeed any web-based application by definition, is fundamentally restricted to the functions that can be provided by a browser. Web-based email suffers the same restrictions, but email clients can make full use of the OS interface. And contrariwise, email also supports pure text-based clients -- try using a text-based browser on typical forum applications for an exercise in frustration. 4) With email, you get to pick what you want to keep and don't want to keep. With a forum you have no control -- garbage stays there unless removed by an admin. 5) Email is accessible to a far larger population. Email supports both web-based and client based interaction. It supports text and graphical UIs. It gives a decent user experience over less bandwidth. It works better with mobile devices (eg blackberry). 6) Email has far better support for exchanging documents, media, and other kinds of information. (Web interfaces have good support for *display*, but lousy support for *sending*.) 7) When you get really good at using a particular email client, that real down to the fingers expertise generalizes to every email list. Forums
Re: email vs forum (was Re: OK, the forum is coming..)
On 7/25/07, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my questions: 1. Is there a way to get Gmail to thread the messages based on who it was in response to? Yup, admins can set archiving at www.gmane.org. This way you will have archiving as well as threaded view regards VK ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: email vs forum (was Re: OK, the forum is coming..)
Um... That doesn't seem to get Gmail to thread the messages at all. You're solution is Just don't use Gmail. Duh!. That's not a valid answer to my question. Before you suggest it, the following is also an invalid response: use Outlook or Thunderbird and download all your messages via POP. I use Gmail. Accept it. Now, if you had a Greasemonkey script that made Gmail thread the messages, that would be acceptable. Thank you, -Steven On 7/25/07, vivek khurana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/25/07, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, my questions: 1. Is there a way to get Gmail to thread the messages based on who it was in response to? Yup, admins can set archiving at www.gmane.org. This way you will have archiving as well as threaded view regards VK ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
WARNING: replies to multiple messages Richard said: If they were interested in developing, they would follow the wiki as it is the only source for finding development specs, cvs links, walkthroughs, etc. Some of us are waiting for hardware... don't get me wrong, you can do a lot with an emulator, I've just been bitten more than enough times by it worked in sim. I can wait patiently for the hardware to get here, then I'll probably be much more active on the wiki On 7/24/07, Ben Burdette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, you need to have a forum that is set up to work like a mailing list. No editing, threaded discussion. Don't have a flat format. I don't see what's wrong with that. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Despising forums, I haven't really checked, but isn't this what gmane is for? I think it's already been made... and discussed to death -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 25 Jul 2007, at 19:56, Jeff Andros wrote: WARNING: replies to multiple messages Richard said: If they were interested in developing, they would follow the wiki as it is the only source for finding development specs, cvs links, walkthroughs, etc. Some of us are waiting for hardware... don't get me wrong, you can do a lot with an emulator, I've just been bitten more than enough times by it worked in sim. I can wait patiently for the hardware to get here, then I'll probably be much more active on the wiki Same here, I can't transfer anything onto the phone yet. Tried a few kernel versions but can't get the USB networking working. If anyone has tell me your kernel version and email a kernel config file? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/24/07, wim delvaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 24 July 2007 02:08:32 Daniel Robinson wrote: I already use my browser to read my email. I use Gmail to handle the mail from my domain. I can read it at home, at the coffee house or at my day job. great for you but AFAIK almost all ISP offer reading mail from their web page so GMAIL, hotmail, yahoo etc are all obsolete. I also use gmail to collect the mail from various pop3 servers, so I can read them at home, in the other flat, at work or at work, gmail has a very good spam filter and also the labelling is really cool. But that's not tht point. The argument that you have to start your browser seems thin to me. What is a mail reader if not an application as complex as a browser? well most mail readers are integrated in your desktop and impose far less overhead when checking for email. Also you can do nice filtering and other scanning for stuff. Also YOU control your email box and not the application that your 'web'-mail provider has made available to you. The point is: most people just start their mail client, read their mail and close it. So it#s like starting the browser, reading the forum and closing it. A forum allows the _writer_ to sort the posting. I have yet to find an email filtering program that does works in a more than rudimentary fashion. A forum can be searched for keywords in much the same way that an email list can be searched. I do not get that ... what do you mean by the 'writer' and sorting ? my mail application (Kontact of KDE) allows searching for ANY data in ANY part of the mail (body subject etc) Ok, in a forum i can post in the category Developemnt subcategory Applications subcategory Graphics. Or Community- Marketing-Advertisment. And if you don't want to read a category, you simply skip it. And every half decent forum has a built-int search, per title, author, timerange, content, categroy, etc. Posts stay on a forum. Much of the email on this list goes into the bit bucket for me. Advertising? Marketing? We don't have a working phone yet. Well most mailing lists collect the email too. All mailing lists I have subscribed to have a page on which you can scan through the archive. That's true, but scanning through a mailing list can be really annoying if you're not familiar with the system. and moste people aren't. So I like the mailing list system, but I read my mail 3 times a day. If some normal user, maybe 56k connection, who connects 2 times a week, has to stay online a hour just to download the las 187 mails from the list, this isn't really the best solution. For development work, the list is perfect. But for support/community not. IMO the comminity list should be changed into a forum, with a good category structure, ant the development lists should stay here.Then every decent forum allows to recive e-mails on new threads, and also posting per mail shouldnt be difficult to achieve with a bit of a hacjing around with phpbb (or wathever we would like to use). The point is that most aren't really intrested in reading everything that's posted, but if you post on a mailing list, you have to download all the mail to know if someone answerd your question. -- My corner of the web: http://ramsesoriginal.wordpress.com My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: OK, the forum is coming..]
Sebastian Krause ha scritto: Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think that google provides nntp, but you can ask gmane to create an nntp gateway. I'm trying gmane nntp interface to community list and it doesn't support thread! all messages are ordered just by date. You're using Thunderbird, and it supports threading for mail as much as for nntp. Just click the small thread icon left over the message overview. Ups, (shame) -_- i supposed it was ordered by thread by default.. Valerio ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/24/07, Ted Lemon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly. That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it melts in the spring and your house will fall in. Don't build your house on ice. Exactly, build it on solid ground (a web forum). I'm guessing that's not what you really meant, but I'm still not sure your point is. Are you saying that if you don't want your email address harvested by spammers, then you should not participate in discussions about openmoko at all? Keeping your email address private IS a valid reason for the use of forums. As for forums, they are very nice for casual use. They are terrible for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively. The nice thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you choose. And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it. There are plenty of ways of staying in touch when using a web forum. Almost every forum I have used has some way to subscribe or watch particular threads. When you visit the site, you can view a list of all your subscribed threads that have been updated since your last visit. You also have the option to get email notifications each time(or as daily/weekly digests) those threads are updated. In my opinion the best thing about forums as compared to mailing lists(although I'm not advocating *replacing* mailing lists in any way) is it dramatically increases the *Signal To Noise Ratio*. Some people just don't want to read every damn conversation remotely related to openmoko. They want to ask their specific question, and be notified when they get a reply. Or they can search for their particular issue, find some existing thread, and subscribe to that one. This is what makes forums great. Hans Loeblich ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different forum UIs is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to address. To state, axiomatically, that mailing lists are more efficient is to attempt proof by assertion. The goal is communication, not rightness. How is communication best served? --Dan On 7/24/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the http protocol. If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) ) And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are quite well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists, because they use a standard interface. Navigating 20 different forums, is not feasible: - -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be already using to read messages. - -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login (depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2 weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest me, ... - -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client. You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based cooking community. Notice: relative newcomer (less than a decade Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed). Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured in units like transaction per time unit. And I can clearly process (or decide not to process) more messages per hour in my mailer than with my browser) Andreas Daniel Robinson wrote: What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than theirs is not worthy of consideration? I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email because it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and forth about this issue. Don't build your house on ice? This is typical of the dismissiveness with which people have responded about this issue. The straw man being used here, that wanting one position or the other is as meritorious as building one's house on ice, is not valid. It smacks of sanctimony and that should be avoided. On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly. That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it melts in the spring and your house will fall in. Don't build your house on ice. As for forums, they are very nice for casual use. They are terrible for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively. The nice thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you choose. And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it. Forums aren't bad - they're just different. I think it would be great if the casual traffic migrated to a forum. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGpjSvHJdudm4KnO0RAoYxAKCBHGel3VGjh+UUUAIa2aw92mGW5wCg6BEj N/FJkT49Lx7LTCadSE0jP08= =oU8p -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On Jul 24, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Daniel Robinson wrote: The goal is communication, not rightness. How is communication best served? duh, use both mailing lists and forums. any new forum post - new post to the list. and vice versa. my vote, if we can't get that working, is to do both, even if we can't keep them in sync. those who want to use the list will use the list, and those on the forum can do that too .. its not a bad thing to have two camps to sit in. mailing lists always seem to tend to have a much faster mean response time between participants than forums do, and this is precisely why forums are often preferred, for their general 'lagginess' which doesn't require attention the user isn't willing to spend unless its on their own schedule.. both means of communication are valid for different reasons. ; ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/24/07, Daniel Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different forum UIs is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to address. To state, axiomatically, that mailing lists are more efficient is to attempt proof by assertion. I think you may fine that mailing lists are more efficient if you want to read all information that comes across the list. If however, you don't care about a significant portion of the posts (like I have stopped caring to see this one). A forum is more efficient cause you end up deleting it over and over again instead of just not clicking on that thread. The goal is communication, not rightness. How is communication best served? Most people seem to specialize and therefore don't actually care about all posts, so I think a forum is marginally more suited especially when most of the traffic is dedicated to dumb arguments like this one (which I realize I have now participated in). So to increase communication I really think both solutions, synchronized is best. But I really think it should wait for some official word if an official one is on its way (and delayed by more important things like shipping the phones). Mark --Dan On 7/24/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the http protocol. If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) ) And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are quite well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists, because they use a standard interface. Navigating 20 different forums, is not feasible: - -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be already using to read messages. - -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login (depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2 weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest me, ... - -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client. You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based cooking community. Notice: relative newcomer (less than a decade Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed). Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured in units like transaction per time unit. And I can clearly process (or decide not to process) more messages per hour in my mailer than with my browser) Andreas Daniel Robinson wrote: What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than theirs is not worthy of consideration? I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email because it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and forth about this issue. Don't build your house on ice? This is typical of the dismissiveness with which people have responded about this issue. The straw man being used here, that wanting one position or the other is as meritorious as building one's house on ice, is not valid. It smacks of sanctimony and that should be avoided. On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly. That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it melts in the spring and your house will fall in. Don't build your house on ice. As for forums, they are very nice for casual use. They are terrible for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively. The nice thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you choose. And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it. Forums aren't bad - they're just different. I think it would be great if the casual traffic migrated to a forum. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Well, the point is that mail clients are tuned for text communication. Webbrowsers are tuned to present a page or application downloaded from a server. Andreas Daniel Robinson wrote: The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different forum UIs is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to address. To state, axiomatically, that mailing lists are more efficient is to attempt proof by assertion. The goal is communication, not rightness. How is communication best served? --Dan On 7/24/07, *Andreas Kostyrka* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the http protocol. If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) ) And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are quite well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists, because they use a standard interface. Navigating 20 different forums, is not feasible: -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be already using to read messages. -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login (depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2 weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest me, ... -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client. You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based cooking community. Notice: relative newcomer (less than a decade Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed). Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured in units like transaction per time unit. And I can clearly process (or decide not to process) more messages per hour in my mailer than with my browser) Andreas Daniel Robinson wrote: What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than theirs is not worthy of consideration? I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email because it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and forth about this issue. Don't build your house on ice? This is typical of the dismissiveness with which people have responded about this issue. The straw man being used here, that wanting one position or the other is as meritorious as building one's house on ice, is not valid. It smacks of sanctimony and that should be avoided. On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly. That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it melts in the spring and your house will fall in. Don't build your house on ice. As for forums, they are very nice for casual use. They are terrible for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively. The nice thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you choose. And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it. Forums aren't bad - they're just different. I think it would be great if the casual traffic migrated to a forum. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hans L wrote: I'm guessing that's not what you really meant, but I'm still not sure your point is. Are you saying that if you don't want your email address harvested by spammers, then you should not participate in discussions about openmoko at all? Keeping your email address private IS a valid reason for the use of forums. Then use something like spamgourmet.org, setup your spam filter, etc. As for forums, they are very nice for casual use. They are terrible for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively. The nice thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you choose. And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it. There are plenty of ways of staying in touch when using a web forum. Almost every forum I have used has some way to subscribe or watch particular threads. When you visit the site, you can view a list of all your subscribed threads that have been updated since your last That's exactly my point = almost every has some way to implement standard functionality. That's really not very efficient, isn't it? visit. You also have the option to get email notifications each Well, why would I want to have email notification if I cannot reply in my mail client? time(or as daily/weekly digests) those threads are updated. In my opinion the best thing about forums as compared to mailing lists(although I'm not advocating *replacing* mailing lists in any way) is it dramatically increases the *Signal To Noise Ratio*. Some people just don't want to read every damn conversation remotely related to openmoko. They want to ask their specific question, and be That's why they can pick and look at the threads they are interested with their MUA, or did I get something wrong. Btw, I can look at the mails with my laptop, and I can easily look at them with my mobile, as both share an IMAP folder. I can access it with a webbrowser by using the webmail interface. And all use the same data, via IMAP. All the superfluous interaction needed to work with a webbased forum make it not really feasible to use my mobile to catch up on the community while sitting in a train. (And my E61 has one of the best mobile browsers currently available, but it still is a pain to scroll around). notified when they get a reply. Or they can search for their particular issue, find some existing thread, and subscribe to that one. This is what makes forums great. Well, my mail client on the E61 and my thunderbird on the laptop have really nice search boxes. And even funnier, they work the same way on the openmoko mailing lists and on the Python tutor mailing list. Now the 55 points question: Can you tell me if the search functionality for the Django mailing list works the same as the one for the Python mailing list? Other fine things about mail: Identity management (although my E61 does not support gpg :(, so it's not perfect; Hint: How do you know that MrX at Forum X is the same person that [EMAIL PROTECTED] is? You don't.). Client better suited to text communication (e.g. spell checking, etc.), while many forums have to live with a textarea tag. And all have to live with that when Javascript is turned off, which is currently the recommendation for any site that displays user contributed text. (you never can be sure that the site implements the HTML filtering correctly, can you?) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGpkJBHJdudm4KnO0RAsVEAJ0a+bXk6omIPe39BML6TjxPnOB2hQCfTHiK zLX8nk7X6Yrlh6bejLYk+9Q= =9yUI -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OK, the forum is coming..
Is there a web form to search the mailing lists ? I didn't find it, and didn't want to ask if that had been asked before, but since I can't find the search form, well, I'm asking :-) I prefer forums over lists because forums are a lot less distracting... but at least when the lists are searchable, there's a way to find the info you want without wasting hours going through threads... I mean, I'm getting over 10 digests every day, I can't even begin to consider being subscribed to this list when the word spreads... Keep the mailing lists for the developers if you like, but we need a forum for the users. _ From: Daniel Robinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 juillet 2007 13:46 To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: OK, the forum is coming.. The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different forum UIs is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to address. To state, axiomatically, that mailing lists are more efficient is to attempt proof by assertion. The goal is communication, not rightness. How is communication best served? --Dan On 7/24/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the http protocol. If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) ) And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are quite well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists, because they use a standard interface. Navigating 20 different forums, is not feasible: - -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be already using to read messages. - -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login (depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2 weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest me, ... - -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client. You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based cooking community. Notice: relative newcomer (less than a decade Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed). Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured in units like transaction per time unit. And I can clearly process (or decide not to process) more messages per hour in my mailer than with my browser) Andreas Daniel Robinson wrote: What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than theirs is not worthy of consideration? I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email because it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and forth about this issue. Don't build your house on ice? This is typical of the dismissiveness with which people have responded about this issue. The straw man being used here, that wanting one position or the other is as meritorious as building one's house on ice, is not valid. It smacks of sanctimony and that should be avoided. On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly. That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it melts in the spring and your house will fall in. Don't build your house on ice. As for forums, they are very nice for casual use. They are terrible for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively. The nice thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you choose. And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it. Forums aren't bad - they're just different. I think it would be great if the casual traffic migrated to a forum. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Jay Vaughan wrote: On Jul 24, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Daniel Robinson wrote: The goal is communication, not rightness. How is communication best served? duh, use both mailing lists and forums. any new forum post - new post to the list. and vice versa. That was my thought too. Anyone know of an existing solution? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 www.google.com? (Hint: add a site:openmoko.com or so to your query) Andreas Jacques Poulin wrote: Is there a web form to search the mailing lists ? I didn't find it, and didn't want to ask if that had been asked before, but since I can't find the search form, well, I'm asking :-) I prefer forums over lists because forums are a lot less distracting... but at least when the lists are searchable, there's a way to find the info you want without wasting hours going through threads... I mean, I'm getting over 10 digests every day, I can't even begin to consider being subscribed to this list when the word spreads... Why would you want to use digests? Even Outlook can handle filtering and sorting your email. To put it differently, there is at least one Linux based gadget that I use, that I'd probably put some time into it (it's my sat receiver ;) ), where I don't participate, because the community organizes around a forum. Well, end effect the community is very static and very small, and slowly dieing :( Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGpkjTHJdudm4KnO0RAkctAKDYfOIorRnnW9aFUQGoysp2igDAvwCg09m2 S53O8/QUoElNnTrKrHmlZHk= =+icb -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Ok, I set up a temporary forum until the guys @ openmoko get everything sorted out. I'm using phpbb. I think the forums are needed, for many of the reasons described in this thread. Primarily, to have another sounding board for new openmoko/neo users to just communicate, and keep this list cleaner. I set it up on my hosted domain space... I need another administrator and moderators, http://www.makeopensource.com/phpBB3 http://forums.makeopensource.com should resolve by tomorrow. Thanks, Kyle On 7/24/07, Jacques Poulin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a web form to search the mailing lists ? I didn't find it, and didn't want to ask if that had been asked before, but since I can't find the search form, well, I'm asking :-) I prefer forums over lists because forums are a lot less distracting... but at least when the lists are searchable, there's a way to find the info you want without wasting hours going through threads... I mean, I'm getting over 10 digests every day, I can't even begin to consider being subscribed to this list when the word spreads... Keep the mailing lists for the developers if you like, but we need a forum for the users. -- *From:* Daniel Robinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* 24 juillet 2007 13:46 *To:* community@lists.openmoko.org *Subject:* Re: OK, the forum is coming.. The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different forum UIs is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to address. To state, axiomatically, that mailing lists are more efficient is to attempt proof by assertion. The goal is communication, not rightness. How is communication best served? --Dan On 7/24/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the http protocol. If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) ) And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are quite well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists, because they use a standard interface. Navigating 20 different forums, is not feasible: - -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be already using to read messages. - -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login (depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2 weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest me, ... - -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client. You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based cooking community. Notice: relative newcomer (less than a decade Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed). Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured in units like transaction per time unit. And I can clearly process (or decide not to process) more messages per hour in my mailer than with my browser) Andreas Daniel Robinson wrote: What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than theirs is not worthy of consideration? I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email because it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and forth about this issue. Don't build your house on ice? This is typical of the dismissiveness with which people have responded about this issue. The straw man being used here, that wanting one position or the other is as meritorious as building one's house on ice, is not valid. It smacks of sanctimony and that should be avoided. On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly. That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it melts in the spring and your house will fall in. Don't build your house on ice. As for forums, they are very nice for casual use. They are terrible for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively. The nice thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Well, mailman (which openmoko uses) has integrated support for Usenet gatewaying. That would add one further option for people that want to keep up with the communication at their own pace. Plus there seem to a number of web - nntp tools where one would need to look over them which one would provide the best web forum like experience for users. Andreas Ben Burdette wrote: Jay Vaughan wrote: On Jul 24, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Daniel Robinson wrote: The goal is communication, not rightness. How is communication best served? duh, use both mailing lists and forums. any new forum post - new post to the list. and vice versa. That was my thought too. Anyone know of an existing solution? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGpkt/HJdudm4KnO0RAtOyAJ9864mVEVtn0uMjnl/ytabq49bm/gCguuH+ jUTbcz36Sx4tntS2zevqDkc= =vr5n -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Ted Lemon wrote: Quite frankly I am completely, totally, overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. Quite a few people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they were *very* reluctant (like myself) to join. Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly. Glad you can read my mind and figure out why I was reluctant to join a mailing list. Here's a hint, it has nothing to do with my email being exposed. Honestly, I just really don't like mailing lists...you can give me all the reasons in the world why *YOU* like them, but that will not change my opinion. I would be willing to bet (even quite large amounts, seriously) that I am not alone in this feeling either. Mailing lists are very efficient if you use them correctly. Several people have explained their overall technical benefits. However, even though it is by no means as difficult as compiling a custom kernel, the people are we are eventually going to be targeting will view it that way, and *WILL NOT USE THEM*, therefore rendering them useless as a communications method with that demographic. Until you (the collect you) realize this, there cannot be a meaningful discussion on this topic. The bottom line is that mailing lists are not an acceptable means of communicating with technical novices. AGAIN, we are not talking about discontinuing the development list (that is/should be used by *developers*). We are talking about Joe and Jane Sixpack, people that don't understand the term MUA, people that would be HORRIFIED if they started getting 70-80 email in a day, people who *don't* use email for project collaboration or searching for answers. *THAT* is the reason that we are requesting a forum. Not for me, and certainly not for you (again, the collective you) that look down upon anyone who can't figure out how to setup email filters, conversation threading, and whatever else is required to make mailing lists be the more efficient means of communicating. Get off your technical superiority high horse and realize WHY we are requesting this...for improved communication with those who are less technically savvy. Sorry for the rant, but the arrogance and snobbery are killing me in this discussion if you can't tell... -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
email vs forum (was Re: OK, the forum is coming..)
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 10:45:32AM -0700, Daniel Robinson wrote: The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different forum's is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to address. Probably it is. There are many people *in this community* in the same boat, and in general, those people will be the most knowledgeable and the most valuable sources of information, since they will tend to be more technically oriented, and be the most experienced internet users, and will be plugged in to more numerous sources of information (since email is indeed more efficient for being connected to many different information sources). To state, axiomatically, that mailing lists are more efficient is to attempt proof by assertion. Not trying to prove something -- trying to give benefit of long experience in similar situations. Email is substantially more efficient, because it is intrinsically more powerful. For example: 1) Essentially any functionality a forum can support can be supported by good email clients -- threading, sorting (or categorization), searching, restricted visibility. Converse isn't true (see below). 2) Forums cannot be viewed when you are offline, but email is a store and forward protocol, and works perfectly with only occasional connections to the internet -- you can read your email on a plane; you can't read a forum. 3) A forum, and indeed any web-based application by definition, is fundamentally restricted to the functions that can be provided by a browser. Web-based email suffers the same restrictions, but email clients can make full use of the OS interface. And contrariwise, email also supports pure text-based clients -- try using a text-based browser on typical forum applications for an exercise in frustration. 4) With email, you get to pick what you want to keep and don't want to keep. With a forum you have no control -- garbage stays there unless removed by an admin. 5) Email is accessible to a far larger population. Email supports both web-based and client based interaction. It supports text and graphical UIs. It gives a decent user experience over less bandwidth. It works better with mobile devices (eg blackberry). 6) Email has far better support for exchanging documents, media, and other kinds of information. (Web interfaces have good support for *display*, but lousy support for *sending*.) 7) When you get really good at using a particular email client, that real down to the fingers expertise generalizes to every email list. Forums use different interfaces. Well, then, why not have forums for people who want them, and leave email for people who don't want them? The thing is, it doesn't work very well in practice. If experience is any guide, then the technically knowledgable people will use email, and won't waste much time on the forums. But a project at the current stage of the openmoko project will require lots of *technical* help for everyone, so what will happen is that you will have to follow the email lists anyway... I mean -- I could be wrong, but that's the way things seem to go with this kind of project. Kent -- Kent Crispin Technical Systems Manager ICANN ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Andreas Kostyrka wrote: To put it differently, there is at least one Linux based gadget that I use, that I'd probably put some time into it (it's my sat receiver ;) ), where I don't participate, because the community organizes around a forum. Well, end effect the community is very static and very small, and slowly dieing :( There you have it folks, unmistakable proof that forums kill communities. I mean if Andreas won't contribute to a forum, then it is most certainly doomed. :) (I kid, I kid) Well, I've said it before and I will say it again. We are not wanting to kill the mailing lists!!! We are wanting to supplement the mailing list with a forum. I cannot see ANY reason why this would be a bad thing. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 02:07:03PM -0500, Jonathon Suggs wrote: [...] The bottom line is that mailing lists are not an acceptable means of communicating with technical novices. AGAIN, we are not talking about discontinuing the development list (that is/should be used by *developers*). We are talking about Joe and Jane Sixpack, people that don't understand the term MUA, people that would be HORRIFIED if they started getting 70-80 email in a day, people who *don't* use email for project collaboration or searching for answers. *THAT* is the reason that we are requesting a forum. Not for me, and certainly not for you (again, the collective you) that look down upon anyone who can't figure out how to setup email filters, conversation threading, and whatever else is required to make mailing lists be the more efficient means of communicating. Get off your technical superiority high horse and realize WHY we are requesting this...for improved communication with those who are less technically savvy. Sorry for the rant, but the arrogance and snobbery are killing me in this discussion if you can't tell... Not arrogance or snobbery -- different view of reality. At this point, openmoko *is* a development project. It's emphatically not for Joe and Jane -- it says so on the web site, where you order your phone. There are disclaimers all over the place. It's not even for early adopters -- it's for hackers and developers. Explicitly. It is devoutly to be hoped that someday there will be a need for a forum for Joe and Jane. But as a real concern that's at *least* 6 months away. More realistically, it will be a year before there is a unit that will be robust enough for Joe and Jane. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not arrogance or snobbery -- different view of reality. At this point, openmoko *is* a development project. It's emphatically not for Joe and Jane -- it says so on the web site, where you order your phone. There are disclaimers all over the place. It's not even for early adopters -- it's for hackers and developers. Explicitly. It is devoutly to be hoped that someday there will be a need for a forum for Joe and Jane. But as a real concern that's at *least* 6 months away. More realistically, it will be a year before there is a unit that will be robust enough for Joe and Jane. Point well taken. However, we are starting to get some interest from people who fall into that middle ground category. They follow technology (to an extent) but aren't willing/capable to actively develop. So we are suggesting creating a forum to be able to answer their basic questions...ones that they wouldn't register on a mailing list to ask. Mailing lists are great tools for keeping the developers in touch, and so we should not change that (nor has that even been suggested). We are merely trying to establish another method to communicate with potential customers, even if they aren't going to be purchasing for 6-12 months. Sorry for being so aggressive in my posts, but seeing people shoot down the thoughts/ideas just because it doesn't suit them is a little arrogant/snobby. Anyway, thanks for bringing the tone down a little and making good solid points. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: email vs forum (was Re: OK, the forum is coming..)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, then, why not have forums for people who want them, and leave email for people who don't want them? The thing is, it doesn't work very well in practice. If experience is any guide, then the technically knowledgable people will use email, and won't waste much time on the forums. But a project at the current stage of the openmoko project will require lots of *technical* help for everyone, so what will happen is that you will have to follow the email lists anyway... I mean -- I could be wrong, but that's the way things seem to go with this kind of project. I agree with you, but no amount of debate will convince anyone and it is just wasting bandwidth. We're going to find out by experimentation but I expect a repeat of the Golgafrincham civilisation from the Hitchhiker's Guide. There are already similarities, re what people expect from fire and what color the wheel should be. ;-) Those with the questions will hang out on the forum and those with the answers will use the mailing lists, and people will grumble about the unhelpful developers not coming over to the forum to help. I'm actually looking forward to the forums, to reduce that kind of traffic on this list. Sadly, I know of several people who have unsubscribed from this list because of it, and switched exclusively to the devel lists instead. Come on over to distro-devel and let's talk about builds and drivers! Let's get started working on the apps on the openmoko-devel list! -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
The general tone on this item of discussion is This is what I want/need, therefore, that is the best solution (for everybody). What I have not seen is any concession to gather information. What I have seen is a lot of data-free analysis. What I would like to see is some examination of the traffic and what sort of organization can be placed on it. On 7/24/07, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not arrogance or snobbery -- different view of reality. At this point, openmoko *is* a development project. It's emphatically not for Joe and Jane -- it says so on the web site, where you order your phone. There are disclaimers all over the place. It's not even for early adopters -- it's for hackers and developers. Explicitly. It is devoutly to be hoped that someday there will be a need for a forum for Joe and Jane. But as a real concern that's at *least* 6 months away. More realistically, it will be a year before there is a unit that will be robust enough for Joe and Jane. Point well taken. However, we are starting to get some interest from people who fall into that middle ground category. They follow technology (to an extent) but aren't willing/capable to actively develop. So we are suggesting creating a forum to be able to answer their basic questions...ones that they wouldn't register on a mailing list to ask. Mailing lists are great tools for keeping the developers in touch, and so we should not change that (nor has that even been suggested). We are merely trying to establish another method to communicate with potential customers, even if they aren't going to be purchasing for 6-12 months. Sorry for being so aggressive in my posts, but seeing people shoot down the thoughts/ideas just because it doesn't suit them is a little arrogant/snobby. Anyway, thanks for bringing the tone down a little and making good solid points. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Well, you started to get personal. Now, a newbie forum is fine, do as you like. Although one might argue that you are splitting the community in two. The problem is that you need a communication tool that is appropriate for newbies. And it must be appropriate for power user, or you'll have trouble to get enough answers for the questions your newbies ask. Now, if the FIC decides that they want to have forums (and notice that typically mobile manufacturers don't have forums on their site), they will have the additional option of paying the answerers. But currently, you are advocating an end user newbie communication tool, for a device that can (perhaps?) dial a number without hacking a Unix command line. Furthermore as an example for a pure newbie forum that runs as a mailing list, and runs well, take a look at the Python Tutor mailing list, where we regular deal with computer illiterates that have problems even writing a simple mail. You should consider the fact that, in a pure FOSS market, you have newbies that post questions and advanced users that answer questions. Now, it's easy to find newbies, it's way harder to get professionals to donate their time to answer questions. Using a tool that is NOT good at heavy communication to make it more hassle for these advanced users is not a good strategy. Now, if you have a company that is willing to pay employees to answer these questions, you have at least a partial solution. Although it's still a solution for support, and not for a community, but who cares ;) Andreas Jonathon Suggs wrote: Andreas Kostyrka wrote: My mail client sorts and deletes mailing posts for me :) snip at least if you use a sensible client. AGAIN, you are forgetting who we are targeting with a forum! They will be using Outlook. They will NOT be setting up filters or doing anything other than hitting Send/Receive! The theoretical aspects are that Email is way more organized and standardized than the average html page. We are not talking about average html pages We are talking about setting up forum software that will correctly format html pages for the task that they would be providing. You are directly embodying the persona that characterizes the people that give FOSS a bad rep with average users. You assume them to all be at the same technical level as you. You would just as soon tell them to change their MUA and setup filters as opposed to actually help them with their problems. This type of arrogance will be what (potentially) keeps people from using OpenMoko/FOSS despite its technical merits. I'll try to keep this civil, but PLEASE stop thinking only about yourself. What is being proposed is not to kill the mailing list. What we ARE proposing if you (collective you) would listen is to supplement the mailing list with a forum. WHY ARE YOU RESISTING -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGplzSHJdudm4KnO0RAq0RAJ9fw3mbY5G10U1Intwo2zNem6qWNQCdGPjd k8mf7B9dZGWK0lBL2iVqmM4= =ctRy -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jonathon Suggs wrote: Well, I've said it before and I will say it again. We are not wanting to kill the mailing lists!!! We are wanting to supplement the mailing list with a forum. I cannot see ANY reason why this would be a bad thing. Well, it splits the community into two subcommunities. The number of users that will bother to use both forms of communication will probably be small. Additionally there is currently no need for customer-level communications at the moment. What will you answer? Considering the fact that many features are still not completely stable, and many features are completely missing. So what can you answer truthfully to some troll that wants to know if the phone will support syncing with Outlook 97? Will it support push mail? Is it better than the iPhone? Bluntly speaking, creating an enduser support forum is something that is the job of FIC, isn't it? Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGpl+gHJdudm4KnO0RAsi6AJ9cW/IZjOr9ebtAYqU55rGVgnq+DACgzzHy AVykKSw5nm6WUfVb5jQpeso= =BUto -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OK, the forum is coming..
According to the wiki there's about 2300 phone orders and the number increases every day. There's some 75-100 people that have posted on the wiki in the P1 owners category. Given, not every developer has contributed to the P1 owners page so there's probably about 300 people or so that follow the wiki and haven't posted in it. Leaving about 2000 orders to people that don't follow the wiki and are probably not interested in developing. If they were interested in developing, they would follow the wiki as it is the only source for finding development specs, cvs links, walkthroughs, etc. That's a pretty large amount of people that are going to want help building openmoko and flashing it to the phone. I think a forum is a good idea for now if anytime. If we can show that there is a great support base available for the phone this early on we can draw a much larger fan base later on. Just my 2 cents Richard Reichenbacher -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Kostyrka Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:23 PM To: Jonathon Suggs Cc: Jacques Poulin; community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: OK, the forum is coming.. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jonathon Suggs wrote: Well, I've said it before and I will say it again. We are not wanting to kill the mailing lists!!! We are wanting to supplement the mailing list with a forum. I cannot see ANY reason why this would be a bad thing. Well, it splits the community into two subcommunities. The number of users that will bother to use both forms of communication will probably be small. Additionally there is currently no need for customer-level communications at the moment. What will you answer? Considering the fact that many features are still not completely stable, and many features are completely missing. So what can you answer truthfully to some troll that wants to know if the phone will support syncing with Outlook 97? Will it support push mail? Is it better than the iPhone? Bluntly speaking, creating an enduser support forum is something that is the job of FIC, isn't it? Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGpl+gHJdudm4KnO0RAsi6AJ9cW/IZjOr9ebtAYqU55rGVgnq+DACgzzHy AVykKSw5nm6WUfVb5jQpeso= =BUto -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Sorry, man, the ante is four cents. :) So much for a tidy email list of just serious, seasoned, developers. Heh. That sound you hear is one lip gloating On 7/24/07, Richard Reichenbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to the wiki there's about 2300 phone orders and the number increases every day. There's some 75-100 people that have posted on the wiki in the P1 owners category. Given, not every developer has contributed to the P1 owners page so there's probably about 300 people or so that follow the wiki and haven't posted in it. Leaving about 2000 orders to people that don't follow the wiki and are probably not interested in developing. If they were interested in developing, they would follow the wiki as it is the only source for finding development specs, cvs links, walkthroughs, etc. That's a pretty large amount of people that are going to want help building openmoko and flashing it to the phone. I think a forum is a good idea for now if anytime. If we can show that there is a great support base available for the phone this early on we can draw a much larger fan base later on. Just my 2 cents Richard Reichenbacher -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Kostyrka Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:23 PM To: Jonathon Suggs Cc: Jacques Poulin; community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: OK, the forum is coming.. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jonathon Suggs wrote: Well, I've said it before and I will say it again. We are not wanting to kill the mailing lists!!! We are wanting to supplement the mailing list with a forum. I cannot see ANY reason why this would be a bad thing. Well, it splits the community into two subcommunities. The number of users that will bother to use both forms of communication will probably be small. Additionally there is currently no need for customer-level communications at the moment. What will you answer? Considering the fact that many features are still not completely stable, and many features are completely missing. So what can you answer truthfully to some troll that wants to know if the phone will support syncing with Outlook 97? Will it support push mail? Is it better than the iPhone? Bluntly speaking, creating an enduser support forum is something that is the job of FIC, isn't it? Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGpl+gHJdudm4KnO0RAsi6AJ9cW/IZjOr9ebtAYqU55rGVgnq+DACgzzHy AVykKSw5nm6WUfVb5jQpeso= =BUto -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/24/07, Richard Reichenbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If they were interested in developing, they would follow the wiki as it is the only source for finding development specs, cvs links, walkthroughs, etc. Flaw in your logic: One has to post to the wiki to follow it. I'm very sure you can follow a wiki and never post to it. So, your stats conclusions are on shaky ground. That's a pretty large amount of people that are going to want help building openmoko and flashing it to the phone. I think a forum is a good idea for now if anytime. If we can show that there is a great support base available for the phone this early on we can draw a much larger fan base later on. I think the idea is to get info out, in an easy to maintain way to as many people as possible. I despise forums. Some products require you to use them, so I have to. There are others that feel this same way. Some despise mailing lists. C'est la vie. I think the best thing would be to work on a way in which both groups could be happy. A gateway between the mailing list and a forum might be the best of both worlds. Then again, maybe not. But it's something that we should be talking about, rather then having a religious debate about forum vs. list. Comments? Gerald. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
A gateway would not work. Forums and mailing lists are two quite different means of communication. In a forum you can edit things, move them, delete them. Also, discussing in a flat view doesn't only look different, it works differently. Also, if you connect both, you get all the trash that's ok in a forum because you can skip it sent to everyone in the mailing list. So, you need to have a forum that is set up to work like a mailing list. No editing, threaded discussion. Don't have a flat format. I don't see what's wrong with that. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 19:19 +0200, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time email users. What, that they never actually read what anyone writes, but just skim it looking for something that they can flame about? Come on guys, read for comprehension, not for opportunities to flame. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 12:33 -0500, Hans L wrote: Are you saying that if you don't want your email address harvested by spammers, then you should not participate in discussions about openmoko at all? Keeping your email address private IS a valid reason for the use of forums. No, I'm saying that building your email security using obscurity doesn't work. There is no way to keep your email address private, any more than there's a way to keep your home address private. You might succeed for a matter of months, or even a year or so if you're really diligent, or even longer if you never actually send any email, but eventually someone who has you in their address book is going to get a virus, and then all your efforts are for naught. So whether you use a forum or a mailing list shouldn't be predicated on your desire to implement security through obscurity. It should be predicated on some other reasoning. That's all I'm saying. I think we need both, and as I said in my email message, I look forward to all of the chatter being siphoned off into the forum. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: Sebastian Krause wrote: Torfinn Ingolfsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess asking for a forum -- NNTP gateway would be asking too much? No: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community Hey, that was very nifty indeed! Lets see if this is a two-way gateway as well. It is, but for some lists you must be member with the mail address you use in the newsreader. I'm not sure about this one (even if I use it!) gmane is really a wonderful service, I read all my lists through it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: (sbup) I guess asking for a forum -- NNTP gateway would be asking too much? There's already the possibility of reading the list as a NNTP group via the gmane news servers... personally I don't like webbased forums. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Jano wrote: There's already the possibility of reading the list as a NNTP group via the gmane news servers... personally I don't like webbased forums. Just tried it, great service ! Mickael. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And people who remember the term usenet can even look at it with a proper news reader. I don't think that google provides nntp, but you can ask gmane to create an nntp gateway. See the sympy group for an example http://groups.google.com/group/sympy http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.sympy Niels ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[Fwd: Re: OK, the forum is coming..]
Messaggio Originale Oggetto: Re: OK, the forum is coming.. Data: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:14:31 +0200 Da: Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] Niels L. Ellegaard ha scritto: Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And people who remember the term usenet can even look at it with a proper news reader. I don't think that google provides nntp, but you can ask gmane to create an nntp gateway. I'm trying gmane nntp interface to community list and it doesn't support thread! all messages are ordered just by date. So it's the same as reading the messages in own mailbox. Doh. Valerio ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: OK, the forum is coming..]
Hello, On 7/23/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm trying gmane nntp interface to community list and it doesn't support thread! all messages are ordered just by date. So it's the same as reading the messages in own mailbox. Doh. Hmm, which newsreader are you using? I'm using Thunderbird, and the list is thraded there. -- Regards, Torfinn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: OK, the forum is coming..]
If you are using the nntp protocol, it means you have a client, right ? My client is Thunderbird, and it supports threads. The last time I used the _web_ interface, it had threads. Mickael. On 7/23/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Messaggio Originale Oggetto: Re: OK, the forum is coming.. Data: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:14:31 +0200 Da: Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] Niels L. Ellegaard ha scritto: Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And people who remember the term usenet can even look at it with a proper news reader. I don't think that google provides nntp, but you can ask gmane to create an nntp gateway. I'm trying gmane nntp interface to community list and it doesn't support thread! all messages are ordered just by date. So it's the same as reading the messages in own mailbox. Doh. Valerio ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Mickael. Coding an AI ! http://faivrem.googlepages.com/antbattle ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
The functionality is too close to a mailing list really... It would be another means of communication from the dark times of the internet which most developers, old people and nerds might love. It wouldn't help in any way to expand the community, though. We are NOT looking for a way to replace the mailing list. We want to ADD another channel of communication that not everyone has to like but would attract new people. Ortwin On 7/23/07, Mickael Faivre-Macon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about creating a google group ? You can still receive each mail individually if you want, or watch it as a forum. Everybody is happy. Mickael. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't like the tree style of discussion. It kind of makes sense on a mailing list. However, I find it unnatural and exhausting to navigate. Old school people who prefer threaded view have got the mailing list, I am of the strong opinion that we should go with a flat forum for accessibility. Nobody forces you to the tree-style view. Also every email client and newsreader can also show eveything in the flat webforum-like view. The difference is that here you got a *choice*. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Niels L. Ellegaard) wrote: Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And people who remember the term usenet can even look at it with a proper news reader. I don't think that google provides nntp, but you can ask gmane to create an nntp gateway. See the sympy group for an example That's what Gmane is actually about. And as a good exampple that it works, all my posting in this thread actually come from gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community on news.gmane.org via NNTP. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: OK, the forum is coming..]
Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think that google provides nntp, but you can ask gmane to create an nntp gateway. I'm trying gmane nntp interface to community list and it doesn't support thread! all messages are ordered just by date. You're using Thunderbird, and it supports threading for mail as much as for nntp. Just click the small thread icon left over the message overview. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Maybe you're right, and the whole point is here: mailing lists are for geeks and forums are for all other people. We should then have a web based forum. On 7/23/07, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The functionality is too close to a mailing list really... It would be another means of communication from the dark times of the internet which most developers, old people and nerds might love. It wouldn't help in any way to expand the community, though. We are NOT looking for a way to replace the mailing list. We want to ADD another channel of communication that not everyone has to like but would attract new people. Ortwin On 7/23/07, Mickael Faivre-Macon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about creating a google group ? You can still receive each mail individually if you want, or watch it as a forum. Everybody is happy. Mickael. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On Tuesday 24 July 2007 00:06:55 Mickael Faivre-Macon wrote: Maybe you're right, and the whole point is here: mailing lists are for geeks and forums are for all other people. We should then have a web based forum. Are you sure ? I find personally a mailing is much easier. You get the messages with your regular mail, you can sort them to a special inbox folder to read them when you have time. Whereas a forum you need to start your web browser, generally wade through some pages to get to the location you want, log on, use some user interface that changes from forum to forum. Searching a mailing list is also easy : google or some searchable mail archive. Adding another channel is counter productive. Focus all data in one location and optimize that medium to the max. W ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
I already use my browser to read my email. I use Gmail to handle the mail from my domain. I can read it at home, at the coffee house or at my day job. The argument that you have to start your browser seems thin to me. What is a mail reader if not an application as complex as a browser? A forum allows the _writer_ to sort the posting. I have yet to find an email filtering program that does works in a more than rudimentary fashion. A forum can be searched for keywords in much the same way that an email list can be searched. Posts stay on a forum. Much of the email on this list goes into the bit bucket for me. Advertising? Marketing? We don't have a working phone yet. --Dan On 7/23/07, wim delvaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 24 July 2007 00:06:55 Mickael Faivre-Macon wrote: Maybe you're right, and the whole point is here: mailing lists are for geeks and forums are for all other people. We should then have a web based forum. Are you sure ? I find personally a mailing is much easier. You get the messages with your regular mail, you can sort them to a special inbox folder to read them when you have time. Whereas a forum you need to start your web browser, generally wade through some pages to get to the location you want, log on, use some user interface that changes from forum to forum. Searching a mailing list is also easy : google or some searchable mail archive. Adding another channel is counter productive. Focus all data in one location and optimize that medium to the max. W ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Maybe you're right, and the whole point is here: mailing lists are for geeks and forums are for all other people. We should then have a web based forum. Are you sure ? I find personally a mailing is much easier. You get the messages with your regular mail, you can sort them to a special inbox folder to read them when you have time. Whereas a forum you need to start your web browser, generally wade through some pages to get to the location you want, log on, use some user interface that changes from forum to forum. Searching a mailing list is also easy : google or some searchable mail archive. Adding another channel is counter productive. Focus all data in one location and optimize that medium to the max. W I'd have to say that for the casual or occasional user, there are significant advantages to a web forum. For me, monitoring an active email list like openmoko in my email client is a fairly sizable undertaking - there are many emails per day to look through. I take time several times a day to look through these, or just mark the folder 'read'. If I were only want to look at the forum once every few weeks, then subscribing to the list would be overkill. On the other hand, in order to participate in the list you need to subscribe. So web-search only users are in effect barred from posting. Even if our casual users wanted 70-80 emails a day for something they only use once in a while, its still a hassle to set up if you don't know about email filtering and etc. Lots of people don't. Compare this to the effort needed to visit slashdot. You register once, and you never need to worry about it again. Visit every day or every 6 months, doesn't matter. The other aspect is that you are putting your real email address out there on the internet for lots of people to look at. This means its an excellent place for spammers to harvest email accounts. With a forum your personal data is more anonymous. Plus there is potential for other social networking style things like user profiles - what users are working on, etc. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On Tuesday 24 July 2007 02:08:32 Daniel Robinson wrote: I already use my browser to read my email. I use Gmail to handle the mail from my domain. I can read it at home, at the coffee house or at my day job. great for you but AFAIK almost all ISP offer reading mail from their web page so GMAIL, hotmail, yahoo etc are all obsolete. The argument that you have to start your browser seems thin to me. What is a mail reader if not an application as complex as a browser? well most mail readers are integrated in your desktop and impose far less overhead when checking for email. Also you can do nice filtering and other scanning for stuff. Also YOU control your email box and not the application that your 'web'-mail provider has made available to you. A forum allows the _writer_ to sort the posting. I have yet to find an email filtering program that does works in a more than rudimentary fashion. A forum can be searched for keywords in much the same way that an email list can be searched. I do not get that ... what do you mean by the 'writer' and sorting ? my mail application (Kontact of KDE) allows searching for ANY data in ANY part of the mail (body subject etc) Posts stay on a forum. Much of the email on this list goes into the bit bucket for me. Advertising? Marketing? We don't have a working phone yet. Well most mailing lists collect the email too. All mailing lists I have subscribed to have a page on which you can scan through the archive. W ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
I like Invision but a properly managed phpBB is nice, too. Only had bad experiences with the ones that weren't kept up to date. What will happen if an official forum is being made? Are you prepared to move all the content (and possibly software) over to the official servers? Maybe we should try to get a response on how far off an official forum is. I could do some basic moderating I guess. Ortwin On 7/21/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. So i'm going to create a forum. Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate, and some graphics suggestions. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. If anyone is doing/wants to do the same thing, please advice me (in ml or private address); otherwise, who loves forum follows me. i'll wait some days before start. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I like Invision but a properly managed phpBB is nice, too. Only had bad experiences with the ones that weren't kept up to date.What will happen if an official forum is being made? Are you prepared to move all the content (and possibly software) over to the official servers? Maybe we should try to get a response on how far off an official forum is. This is very important point. Now we have, say, 99% developers and 1% users; if we start a new forum now and then OpenMoko.org people creates the OFFICIAL one, it's all useless work. We must point to the creation of the official openmoko forum; for this reason using a pre-existent forum is not a good idea IMHO: forum will have to be relative to openmoko stuff only and layout/colors should be inline with openmoko.org site. So, we need a reply from OpenMoko.org people to those questions: - Can we start now the official OpenMoko.org forum? For example can we use forums.openmoko.org and the logo? - If we start a new forum and it works and have success (visits from users and/or developer), it will become THE OpenMoko.org forum, or it isn't acceptable from now? Who can reply for them? I don't want split community, i want bring a better tool for communication to those. Send messages from Forum to ML is a simple thing, problem is reverse. Rss feed is a common funcionality in forums, now i'm looking for it in phpbb. People say your opinion! That's mine. I could do some basic moderating I guess.Ortwin Thanks for all people that give their availability. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Giles Jones ha scritto: The number of these users can me minimised by having a very good manual. This is false imho. I know that people don't read manuals often but that's because troubleshooting sections are always stuck at the back. Have a special separate troubleshooting manual and they may read it. Remember you're talking about a free customizable smartphone where you can install lot of applications developed around the world. Not a static pre-installed software super-branded phone. As customization capacity/functionality increase, people questions increase too imho. Valerio ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
I agree with Valerio's (humble) opinion. Having a static manual would have problems due to the dynamic situation of the software. (The reason wiki's were born!) We need to have an official forum, as questions will be asked and it will strengthen the community. forums.openmoko.org I believe is the way to go. When people start asking questions over and over again, a) ask them to search the forums somewhat better next time, and b) make it a wiki article. This is a pretty important issue... opinions? Kyle Bassett On 7/22/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Giles Jones ha scritto: The number of these users can me minimised by having a very good manual. This is false imho. I know that people don't read manuals often but that's because troubleshooting sections are always stuck at the back. Have a special separate troubleshooting manual and they may read it. Remember you're talking about a free customizable smartphone where you can install lot of applications developed around the world. Not a static pre-installed software super-branded phone. As customization capacity/functionality increase, people questions increase too imho. Valerio ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Daniel Robinson ha scritto: The COGS on this phone should be around $100-110. FIC will make money, but won't make a lot of money unless they sell a lot of them. They are leveraging their expertise, manufacturing, and if they manufacture something that doesn't sell, that is wasted manufacturing resources. Sorry for ignorance but what are COGS ? building costs at FIC? i hope part of the 300$ are given to boost openmoko team.. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/22/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry for ignorance but what are COGS ? building costs at FIC? An accounting term. Wikipedia is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_goods_sold I had to look it up too... -- Regards, Torfinn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 22 Jul 2007, at 09:47, Kyle Bassett wrote: I agree with Valerio's (humble) opinion. Having a static manual would have problems due to the dynamic situation of the software. (The reason wiki's were born!) We need to have an official forum, as questions will be asked and it will strengthen the community. forums.openmoko.org I believe is the way to go. When people start asking questions over and over again, a) ask them to search the forums somewhat better next time, and b) make it a wiki article. This is a pretty important issue... opinions? It wouldn't be a manual for every possibility. Just document all the potential conditions where the phone becomes unusable and how you get out of those situations. I've known quite a few people own smartphones and never install an application. These are the sort of people who use IE and Outlook Express as they wouldn't know of another browser or email application. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
COGS = cost of goods shipped Sorry to be off topic. Yes, we need a forum, On 7/22/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Daniel Robinson ha scritto: The COGS on this phone should be around $100-110. FIC will make money, but won't make a lot of money unless they sell a lot of them. They are leveraging their expertise, manufacturing, and if they manufacture something that doesn't sell, that is wasted manufacturing resources. Sorry for ignorance but what are COGS ? building costs at FIC? i hope part of the 300$ are given to boost openmoko team.. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Dnia sobota, 21 lipca 2007, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller napisał: Well, I would suggest to use the existing Open Embedded forum (previously this was the Zaurus User Group): www.oesf.org and ask to create new subsections there OESF forums are NOT OpenEmbedded forums. It is common mistake. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant Jest to moje zdanie i ja je całkowicie podzielam. [Henri Monnier] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Am 22.07.2007 um 21:19 schrieb Marcin Juszkiewicz: Dnia sobota, 21 lipca 2007, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller napisał: Well, I would suggest to use the existing Open Embedded forum (previously this was the Zaurus User Group): www.oesf.org and ask to create new subsections there OESF forums are NOT OpenEmbedded forums. It is common mistake. Indeed - OESF = Open Embedded Software Foundation which took over the Zaurus User Group. The OpenEmbedded project is different from that. So, since many previous Zaurus users are looking for a new device to play with, why not use the ZUG Forum? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sebastian Krause [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not for me because it doesn't provide a threaded view, scoring etc. I don't understand your sentence. Forums haven't threaded view ?! Anyway... As far as I could see it in all phpBB forums until now, the messages are sorted by the date and time are posted, but by whom they're answering to. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/22/07, Sebastian Krause [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I could see it in all phpBB forums until now, the messages are sorted by the date and time are posted, but by whom they're answering to. I think you meant to say: As far as I could see it in all phpBB forums until now, the messages are [not] sorted by the date and time [they] are posted, but by whom they're answering to. phpBB forums are sorted by all three characteristics: date, time, poster. As I'm sure you know, any single phpBB forum may be divided into sub-forums or categories. Each category has threads in it, with the newest threads at the top (sorting by 'time and date'). A thread is a group of posts, the first post being the thread's seed and the others being replies to that post (sorting by 'whom they're answering to'). When reading a thread, the posts are also displayed with the seed at the top and the replies below, in chronological order (a second sorting by 'time and date'). While not a phpBB forum, LinuxQuestions.org is a great example of how all three characteristics are used to group and display the discussions. phpBB isn't that different from LQ's default, which lets you tweak a lot of display preferences (maybe you like oldest on bottom? no problem). To add more suggestions to the pile, maybe a new sub-forum in Linux - Distributions area of LQ would helpful. At least for OpenMoko. . . I don't know where/if the Neo and later devices would fit. Also, another way to have a usable 'forum' (both from mail and web) is a Google Group. Google groups offer RSS feeds as well, file and page hosting, and moderation. Do I need to mention that search is also a feature ;-P Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Moin, Am Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:31:55 + (UTC) schrieb Valerio Bruno: I don't understand your sentence. Forums haven't threaded view ?! Anyway... Yes, in my (and probably Sebastian's) part of the Internet, phpBB does not count as a threaded forum. Based on http://aktuell.de.selfhtml.org/artikel/gedanken/foren-boards/ (sorry, it's in German, but there are clarifying pictures) I'd make a distinction between a forum, which is inherently threaded (not in the phpBB-sense), and a board, which is flat (like phpBB). A thread in a forum captures the more natural way of discussion: someone says something, multiple people reply, maybe focusing on different aspects of the original post, the discussion might drift away in more than one dimension, sub-aspects get discussed, maybe even the topic changes completely: (A, B, C are people; 1,2,3... are aspects of the subject) A says 1, 2, 3 B responds to 1, 2, brings up 4 C responds to 1, 4 (from B's post) A responds to 2, 4 (independent of C's post) C responds to 1, brings up 5 A responds to 5 C responds to 5 (from A's post) etc... Graph-theoretically speaking: Real[tm] threads are trees. (Well, actually, from a real-world point of view they should be directed acyclic graphs, meaning that one could reply to more than one posting at a time. But that just adds all sorts of headaches and is difficult to visualize. It's like multiple inheritance in the programming language of your choice. But I digress ...) A 'thread' in a board, like phpBB, is inherently flat, one-dimensional, restricting. There's always only exactly one subject being discussed, and it's harder to cherry-pick the aspects that you want to reply to. Especially if you want to reply to an aspect that has been brought up several posts ago: A says 1, 2, 3 B responds to 1, 2, brings up 4 C responds to 1, brings up 5 C responds to 1, 4 (from B's post) A responds to 5 A responds to 2, 4 (independent of C's post) C responds to 5 (from A's post) Trains of thought that ought to belong together are separated by this structure, and completely unrelated aspects are forced to stand together. And now imagine being a new person D and wanting to say something about aspect 3. That's why phpBB postings basically must make use of these @poster A forms, and even that doesn't help too much if the posting being replied to was 30 postings (read: 3 pages) ago. There's a reason that the 'classical' discussion systems (usenet and mailing-lists) model real threads. Oh, and yes, some boards offer proper threads as an optional view. But that's hard, because replying in a plain-board style loses information about the intent of the poster. It's easy to transform a forum view into a board view by just throwing the who responded to whom-information away, but it's impossible the other way round. And finally: Should the discussion really be one-dimensional and flat, well that's just a special case of a tree and no problem at all for real forums. -- Henryk Plötz Grüße aus Berlin ~ Help Microsoft fight software piracy: Give Linux to a friend today! ~ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/22/07, Joe Friedrichsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In regards to my suggestions, both LQ and Google groups keep discussions flat like a phpBB board. You can of course quote people to explicitly bring context to your reply. Actually, Google Groups //does// support properly threaded reading on the web. Take a look at this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/google-code-hosting/browse_frm/thread/844ef0e6ed264357/# for an example. Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
I don't like the tree style of discussion. It kind of makes sense on a mailing list. However, I find it unnatural and exhausting to navigate. Old school people who prefer threaded view have got the mailing list, I am of the strong opinion that we should go with a flat forum for accessibility. Ortwin On 7/23/07, Henryk Plötz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Moin, Am Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:31:55 + (UTC) schrieb Valerio Bruno: I don't understand your sentence. Forums haven't threaded view ?! Anyway... Yes, in my (and probably Sebastian's) part of the Internet, phpBB does not count as a threaded forum. Based on http://aktuell.de.selfhtml.org/artikel/gedanken/foren-boards/ (sorry, it's in German, but there are clarifying pictures) I'd make a distinction between a forum, which is inherently threaded (not in the phpBB-sense), and a board, which is flat (like phpBB). A thread in a forum captures the more natural way of discussion: someone says something, multiple people reply, maybe focusing on different aspects of the original post, the discussion might drift away in more than one dimension, sub-aspects get discussed, maybe even the topic changes completely: (A, B, C are people; 1,2,3... are aspects of the subject) A says 1, 2, 3 B responds to 1, 2, brings up 4 C responds to 1, 4 (from B's post) A responds to 2, 4 (independent of C's post) C responds to 1, brings up 5 A responds to 5 C responds to 5 (from A's post) etc... Graph-theoretically speaking: Real[tm] threads are trees. (Well, actually, from a real-world point of view they should be directed acyclic graphs, meaning that one could reply to more than one posting at a time. But that just adds all sorts of headaches and is difficult to visualize. It's like multiple inheritance in the programming language of your choice. But I digress ...) A 'thread' in a board, like phpBB, is inherently flat, one-dimensional, restricting. There's always only exactly one subject being discussed, and it's harder to cherry-pick the aspects that you want to reply to. Especially if you want to reply to an aspect that has been brought up several posts ago: A says 1, 2, 3 B responds to 1, 2, brings up 4 C responds to 1, brings up 5 C responds to 1, 4 (from B's post) A responds to 5 A responds to 2, 4 (independent of C's post) C responds to 5 (from A's post) Trains of thought that ought to belong together are separated by this structure, and completely unrelated aspects are forced to stand together. And now imagine being a new person D and wanting to say something about aspect 3. That's why phpBB postings basically must make use of these @poster A forms, and even that doesn't help too much if the posting being replied to was 30 postings (read: 3 pages) ago. There's a reason that the 'classical' discussion systems (usenet and mailing-lists) model real threads. Oh, and yes, some boards offer proper threads as an optional view. But that's hard, because replying in a plain-board style loses information about the intent of the poster. It's easy to transform a forum view into a board view by just throwing the who responded to whom-information away, but it's impossible the other way round. And finally: Should the discussion really be one-dimensional and flat, well that's just a special case of a tree and no problem at all for real forums. -- Henryk Plötz Grüße aus Berlin ~ Help Microsoft fight software piracy: Give Linux to a friend today! ~ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
What about creating a google group ? You can still receive each mail individually if you want, or watch it as a forum. Everybody is happy. Mickael. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/22/07, Mickael Faivre-Macon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about creating a google group ? You can still receive each mail individually if you want, or watch it as a forum. Everybody is happy. And have the threaded view for those that want it. You can view flat as well threaded: http://groups.google.com/group/google-code-hosting/browse_frm/thread/844ef0e6ed264357/# flat: http://groups.google.com/group/google-code-hosting/browse_thread/thread/844ef0e6ed264357?tvc=2 Same discussion :-) Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Joe Friedrichsen writes: On 7/22/07, Mickael Faivre-Macon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about creating a google group ? You can still receive each mail individually if you want, or watch it as a forum. Everybody is happy. And have the threaded view for those that want it. You can view flat as well And people who remember the term usenet can even look at it with a proper news reader. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
OK, the forum is coming..
i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. So i'm going to create a forum. Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate, and some graphics suggestions. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. If anyone is doing/wants to do the same thing, please advice me (in ml or private address); otherwise, who loves forum follows me. i'll wait some days before start. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Am 21.07.2007 um 16:46 schrieb Valerio Bruno: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. Me too - it is not important if it is good or bad or forum vs. list. It is important that there are enough community members who want to have it *in addition* to this list. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. agreed! So i'm going to create a forum. Well, I would suggest to use the existing Open Embedded forum (previously this was the Zaurus User Group): www.oesf.org and ask to create new subsections there ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
I agree, a forum is a good idea! More organized and easier searched (without putting that job entirely on the user's end) than a mailing list. I prefer PHPbb, definitely. Invision is more fancy, but I am always seeing those things screw up. Bye, -Dylan McCall On 7/21/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. So i'm going to create a forum. Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate, and some graphics suggestions. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. If anyone is doing/wants to do the same thing, please advice me (in ml or private address); otherwise, who loves forum follows me. i'll wait some days before start. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
A quick search on google showed this: http://www.midgard-project.org/discussion/developer-forum/forum-to-mailing_list_integration/ I think whatever official openmoko supported communication technique is used needs to allow users the ability to choose how they access the information. There is no reason ml and forums cannot access the same backend so that users of the system can choose whether they want to communicate via ml or forum. My 2c Jae ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Hello, On 7/21/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. I couldn't care less about which system to choose, but I have one wish; make it as fast and usable as possible, nd make it work flawlessly with Firefox and Opera. I guess asking for a forum -- NNTP gateway would be asking too much? -- Regards, Torfinn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler Not for me because it doesn't provide a threaded view, scoring etc. There's nothing more comfortable than reading this list in your favorite news reader by Gmane. - could be a central point for developers too! I hope not because it horribly uncomfortable to read. I don't really care which forum software you use, but then at least it should provide a mailing list gateway for people who don't want to use a forum. And btw, you actually *can* already use this list as a web forum if you want, and actually in a really comfortale way: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community So why splitting up everything into two worlds? Sebastian ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Torfinn Ingolfsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess asking for a forum -- NNTP gateway would be asking too much? No: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On Saturday 21 July 2007, Valerio Bruno wrote: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. So i'm going to create a forum. Three cheers for that man. I definitely think a forum is a good idea. I have been a list subscriber for the past 6 months or so, and just recently the traffic has got rather high. I shudder to think what it would be like in November with thousands of newbies out there asking questions. I don't think we should close the list or the Wiki, just divert some of the newbee questions, and discussons of soft issues like advertising away from the list. Forums are also good because you can easily add links embedded images. Rather than having lots of stickys in each sub forum, I think it would be better to move HOW-TOs, FAQs etc to the Wiki, and then just have one sticky with links to them. Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate, and some graphics suggestions. I don't mind being a moderator. I won't have time to moderate all the time though. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. Personally I am familiar with phpBB, but not Invision, so that would be my preference. -- David Pottage ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/21/07, Valerio Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. So i'm going to create a forum. Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate, and some graphics suggestions. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. If anyone is doing/wants to do the same thing, please advice me (in ml or private address); otherwise, who loves forum follows me. i'll wait some days before start. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I have no problem moderating as well. I prefer phpBB, since I have experience with it. We definitely need a forum to direct some of the more user-base questions that way... All for it. Kyle ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Werner hinted at an official forums.openmoko.org. If people would just want something temporary, I could probably get an FIC or Linux subform created at http://www.howardforums.com/ (500,000 members). There are developers and network engineers that post there that can result in great threads; however, as a warning the overall userbase has become younger over the years. Regardless of age, I have not found a better user resource if you want to do anything with a phone. I'm amazed at what people can create to get around current carrier restrictions. Valerio Bruno wrote: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. So i'm going to create a forum. Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate, and some graphics suggestions. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. If anyone is doing/wants to do the same thing, please advice me (in ml or private address); otherwise, who loves forum follows me. i'll wait some days before start. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
With news readers in mind, I have one wish for the forums: Really good syndication, either with RSS or Atom feeds. On 7/21/07, Adam Krikstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Werner hinted at an official forums.openmoko.org. If people would just want something temporary, I could probably get an FIC or Linux subform created at http://www.howardforums.com/ (500,000 members). There are developers and network engineers that post there that can result in great threads; however, as a warning the overall userbase has become younger over the years. Regardless of age, I have not found a better user resource if you want to do anything with a phone. I'm amazed at what people can create to get around current carrier restrictions. Valerio Bruno wrote: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. So i'm going to create a forum. Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate, and some graphics suggestions. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. If anyone is doing/wants to do the same thing, please advice me (in ml or private address); otherwise, who loves forum follows me. i'll wait some days before start. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OK, the forum is coming..
Howard forums rock - so definitely a good location for it. No offence to the OpenMoko guys but if it was important and they were going to put up a forum then should have been done a while ago. Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Krikstone Sent: Saturday, 21 July 2007 2:38 PM To: OpenMoko Subject: Re: OK, the forum is coming.. Werner hinted at an official forums.openmoko.org. If people would just want something temporary, I could probably get an FIC or Linux subform created at http://www.howardforums.com/ (500,000 members). There are developers and network engineers that post there that can result in great threads; however, as a warning the overall userbase has become younger over the years. Regardless of age, I have not found a better user resource if you want to do anything with a phone. I'm amazed at what people can create to get around current carrier restrictions. Valerio Bruno wrote: i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad. i think is good: - can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers) - following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler - it can have email notification for reply - could be a central point for developers too! - other motivations said by other people.. So i'm going to create a forum. Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate, and some graphics suggestions. Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former. If anyone is doing/wants to do the same thing, please advice me (in ml or private address); otherwise, who loves forum follows me. i'll wait some days before start. Valerio, Italy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Sebastian Krause wrote: Torfinn Ingolfsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess asking for a forum -- NNTP gateway would be asking too much? No: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community Hey, that was very nifty indeed! Lets see if this is a two-way gateway as well. -- Torfinn Ingolfsen ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
Sebastian Krause [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not for me because it doesn't provide a threaded view, scoring etc. I don't understand your sentence. Forums haven't threaded view ?! Anyway... And btw, you actually *can* already use this list as a web forum if you want, and actually in a really comfortale way: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community So why splitting up everything into two worlds? Well, I didn't mind that openmoko mailing lists would be recorded in gmane; i admit that gmane interface is enough forum-like and comfortable for me. Why don't you say it 50 messages ago? ;p I've referred gmane web interfaces in Wiki: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Development_resources#Mailing_Lists but it should be referred in mailing lists page too: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ so new users haven't to discover. By the way, in the long run we'll need a real, user-friendly forum to address non-tech-friendly user. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 22 Jul 2007, at 00:31, Valerio Bruno wrote By the way, in the long run we'll need a real, user-friendly forum to address non-tech-friendly user. The number of these users can me minimised by having a very good manual. I know that people don't read manuals often but that's because troubleshooting sections are always stuck at the back. Have a special separate troubleshooting manual and they may read it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 7/22/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The number of these users can me minimised by having a very good manual. We can all start it and then publish it easily with a online publisher like lulu. http://www.lulu.com/ http://www.lulu.com/author/create.php By the way, does FIC plan to make money out of the neo ? Like selling manuals ? Or whatever ? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
On 22 Jul 2007, at 01:13, Mickael Faivre-Macon wrote: By the way, does FIC plan to make money out of the neo ? Like selling manuals ? Or whatever ? They'll make money on the hardware. Developing a good smartphone OS costs quite a bit of money. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OK, the forum is coming..
The COGS on this phone should be around $100-110. FIC will make money, but won't make a lot of money unless they sell a lot of them. They are leveraging their expertise, manufacturing, and if they manufacture something that doesn't sell, that is wasted manufacturing resources. I think the business plan for them is to enable developers who want to make a better phone/PDA than the pieces of crap on the market. I had a Sony Ericcsson phone on Cingular and I could create my own ring tones and down load them. I have a RAZR on T-Mobile and they will only let me buy ringtones. This is a brain dead phone/company combo. If dev heads make a better product (a product being a solution to a customer's problem) they will sell phones. --Dan On 7/21/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 22 Jul 2007, at 01:13, Mickael Faivre-Macon wrote: By the way, does FIC plan to make money out of the neo ? Like selling manuals ? Or whatever ? They'll make money on the hardware. Developing a good smartphone OS costs quite a bit of money. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
