Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Raphaël Jacquot wrote: it's *very* understandable. it's called the NIH syndrome... We are talking about spectrum allocation here. The 900Mhz band was already allocated in North America. You can buy 900Mhz cordless phones and wireless speakers. 915Mhz is in the ISM band (industrial, scientific, medical). There is no invention involved in spectrum allocation. GSM was already specified. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes well it is the dreaded silly 110V/220V, Pal/NTSC, lb/kg standards monster again. Not long ago (10 yeqrs ago) there were a lot of resistance to GSM here which is just not understandable and luckily it is getting way more foothold. it's *very* understandable. it's called the NIH syndrome... also, patents of all sorts may have something to do with it, and we all know how the US are patent lawsuit happy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Doug Sutherland wrote: Raphaël Jacquot wrote: it's *very* understandable. it's called the NIH syndrome... We are talking about spectrum allocation here. The 900Mhz band was already allocated in North America. You can buy 900Mhz cordless phones and wireless speakers. 915Mhz is in the ISM band (industrial, scientific, medical). There is no invention involved in spectrum allocation. GSM was already specified. I'm talking about the previous tech, such as iden (nextel if I'm not mistaken) whatever qualcomm's proprietary tech was called. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I'm talking about the previous tech, such as iden (nextel if I'm not mistaken) whatever qualcomm's proprietary tech was called. Motorola invented IDEN. They have been doing telecom since 1928, so you can't really blame them for inventing stuff hehe. In Canada, Telus Mobility also uses IDEN. The PTT feature is actually quite popular. In fact, it could be said that others are conceptual copies of what motorola designed. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On to, 2007-11-08 at 06:29 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this case it is a very valid issue and definitely not a complaint or a whine. It can become one quickly if everyone keeps mulling it over without adding anything new. It basically tanks one of the largest consumer bases and it tanks my project in my company until I find something else. Sad about your project. Hope they can make that speculated 850/1800/1900 triband version a reality quick, but you can't of course assume that. Will GPS work without trouble, is it in any way affected by the bandwidth issue. 1) It's not a bandwidth issue. It's a frequency band issue. 2) GPS is not affected in any way. -- Mikko J Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Helsinki ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Hi, I'm still pressing on the GSM firwmare update. TI is supposed to have an answer for us, and we've been calling them daily. They are incredibly difficult to catch. (Same problem with Global Locate regarding the GPS driver) Michael ian douglas wrote: Al Johnson wrote: We should find out one way or the other reasonably soon. Like we'd know reasonably soon about the TI modem firmware delivery system that they told us about almost a month ago? ;o) Seriously, if they can fix the 3G issue so I can just use TMobile for the time being, then great, I'll keep my Neo. But if I have to wait much longer just for the modem firmware upgrade, then this 850 issue is a serious deal breaker and I want a refund. -id ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
In this case it is a very valid issue and definitely not a complaint or a whine. It basically tanks one of the largest consumer bases and it tanks my project in my company until I find something else. You left out one important part in your mail below. Will GPS work without trouble, is it in any way affected by the bandwidth issue. I would surely think not, but if y0ou want to market this to someone as a PDA only, then definitely give the complete information sucha as include GPS usability in NA. Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: So, ok, the NEO does NOT support 850/1900 MHz band, this is an issue, FIC is informed of that and i think that they are evaluating the possibilities to make it working, so please just stop crying at the list my neo here isn't working... ok, i understand the problem and i understand you, but receiving a tons of similar mail is boring. AFAIK FIC members read the list, and now are just considering some solutions (at least i hope). So in conclusion, the replies at the FAQ on this issue are (forgive me if appear a bit rude but it's due to my english): I live in north america, i have my NEO dev edition and i can't get the signal, what i can do? sell your neo, it's an hardware/firmware/software issue, so it can't be fixed with a simple software upgrade I need the 850 support should i buy the neo now? No you don't have to until you want a good pda whitout the possibility to make phone calls I live in NA and i usually stay in my big city, will the neo get the signal? May be, it will probably get it but it's not assured, you can try to verify somehow if the bands supported by the neo are covering your area What can i do to make the neo supporting those bands? you can do nothing What is FIC doing about this? Don't know, i hope they are considering some solutions for this issue Last but not least: which are the solutions which FIC is considering? The solutions are: 1) do nothing, at least for the GTA02, maybe a fix in GTA03 or something similar 2) produce 2 separate phone, 1 for the NA and another one for the Rest Of The World (identical phone except the capability to get the 850/1900 band INSTEAD the 900/1800 one) 3) make a nice community poll to ask if the members can wait another 2 month (the time is just something I think) to redesign the hardware and fix the firmware so that we can have a full quad band phone) The 3rd solution was not proposed but it's another way to solve the problem, honestly i don't mind about the quad band, i live in italy and i don't think i'll ever come to america, if i'll do that i'll use some other cheap phone, but i think that it's important for other community member to have it working in quad band way, so i'll wait if the community will decide to wait and obviously FIC will consider this solution. Cya! Pietro P.S. We will wait for some FIC official solution. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Nov 8, 2007 12:29 AM, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, ok, the NEO does NOT support 850/1900 MHz band, this is an issue, FIC is informed of that and i think that they are evaluating the ONLY 850 is turned off. 1900 works fine. Coverage may be sproadic or nonexistent still, but facts are useful :) Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
We were willing to wait for the commercial version to start our development, but if that is not going to be functional in the USA in remote areas like other cellphones, then it is lights-out for any possible future vendor here in the USA who want to incorporate this in to an existing product line. Thats a fact not a wine. I will get a development kit from Apple and live with it. Our products need a gps/phone/computer system as an add-on and it cant wait past January 2008. If the GPS works great I will buy it as a PDA in future once it is released. This morning the project using the NEO was canned, reasons are, ever shifting timetables and secondly, too much risk when the rug is pulled from under your feet by FIC suddenly not supporting US frequency bands, while there are other alternatives such as Iphone available with a development kit that might meet our development scenario -- (about just). Unfortunately rural access is crucial for our applications, so it just became a no-no. Anyway thanks to all for the input, and the NEO was a great idea till now, unfortunately it does not seem if it will be available in a working state within the next year here in the USA. All of luck with OpenMoko. Bye. Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: In this case it is a very valid issue and definitely not a complaint or a whine. It basically tanks one of the largest consumer bases and it tanks my project in my company until I find something else. Well the man at FIC (Michael) said that this issue is being evaluated, i'm not associated with fic in any way so anything i'm writing is because i've read the mails coming from this mailing list. You left out one important part in your mail below. No, i've left anything because the subject of this mail is regarding the 850MHz issue, GPS is not involved with it. Well, then add in the WIKI that GPS will still work in NA, else it only makes matters worse for marketing and is misleading by not disclosing all the features that will work.. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: In this case it is a very valid issue and definitely not a complaint or a whine. It basically tanks one of the largest consumer bases and it tanks my project in my company until I find something else. Well the man at FIC (Michael) said that this issue is being evaluated, i'm not associated with fic in any way so anything i'm writing is because i've read the mails coming from this mailing list. You left out one important part in your mail below. No, i've left anything because the subject of this mail is regarding the 850MHz issue, GPS is not involved with it. Will GPS work without trouble, is it in any way affected by the bandwidth issue. I would surely think not, but if y0ou want to market this to someone as a PDA only, then definitely give the complete information sucha as include GPS usability in NA. Updates? they are told to us from Michael and there is a wiki page for them, so if you want to make a business project NEO based you have to keep in mind that it's still in development and something could go wrong, the new version (GTA02) will have more hardware like wifi and openmoko is quite usable now, but i don't know if it's so stable. The OpenMoko is free software, so you have to read the license saying something like if it works ok, if it don't fix it yourself or pay someone to fixit for you, so i have to say to be careful doing this choice. Good software and i think i'll enjoy it on the NEO (trying the qemu versions) but this is from a user/programmer/liunx fan/geek/everything you want point of view. From a business point of view you have to consider a lot of factor so you have to wait a stable release first and get all the updates on that: software firmware hardware issues (i'm doing it for the NEO just to see which are the progress) I've wrote that mail only to clarify the situation beacuse anyone was saying the same thing. I'll buy the NEO, i'll be happy if it will be a quad band phone, but i don't really mind if it'll be a triband phone because where i live this is not a problem. Thinking about myself only? Maybe, but i really care about a NEO which will work fine in my conuntry, if i have to wait for another revision or two to let this phone be full quad band to let it working well in the north america, i'll be happy to wait, no problem. Anything I want is a good device that work fine, possibly in any country with a GSM compilant network. I've made a mistake saying that the NEO isn't working with 1900MHz, it's only not working with the 850MHz one (hope to be useful and if this email seems not too polite is because of my english) Bye! Pietro Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: So, ok, the NEO does NOT support 850/1900 MHz band, this is an issue, FIC is informed of that and i think that they are evaluating the possibilities to make it working, so please just stop crying at the list my neo here isn't working... ok, i understand the problem and i understand you, but receiving a tons of similar mail is boring. AFAIK FIC members read the list, and now are just considering some solutions (at least i hope). So in conclusion, the replies at the FAQ on this issue are (forgive me if appear a bit rude but it's due to my english): I live in north america, i have my NEO dev edition and i can't get the signal, what i can do? sell your neo, it's an hardware/firmware/software issue, so it can't be fixed with a simple software upgrade I need the 850 support should i buy the neo now? No you don't have to until you want a good pda whitout the possibility to make phone calls I live in NA and i usually stay in my big city, will the neo get the signal? May be, it will probably get it but it's not assured, you can try to verify somehow if the bands supported by the neo are covering your area What can i do to make the neo supporting those bands? you can do nothing What is FIC doing about this? Don't know, i hope they are considering some solutions for this issue Last but not least: which are the solutions which FIC is considering? The solutions are: 1) do nothing, at least for the GTA02, maybe a fix in GTA03 or something similar 2) produce 2 separate phone, 1 for the NA and another one for the Rest Of The World (identical phone except the capability to get the 850/1900 band INSTEAD the 900/1800 one) 3) make a nice community poll to ask if the members can wait another 2 month (the time is just something I think) to redesign the hardware and fix the firmware so that we can have a full quad band phone) The 3rd solution was not proposed but it's another way to solve the problem, honestly i don't mind about the quad band, i live in italy and i don't think i'll ever come to america, if i'll do that i'll use some other cheap phone, but i think that it's important for other community member to have it working in quad band way, so i'll wait if the community will decide to wait and obviously FIC will consider this
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Randall Mason wrote: How are there so many people who know so little about cell phones, GPS, and PDAs that claim to be supporting projects on this phone? I would challenge you on that flame Mr Ignoramus. I dont have to prove anything to you as I dont need your sanction. How did you convince your company to start these projects? Because I have several patents (working in industry) making a lot of money and have 100's of large industrial corporations as customers. Why was Michael's initial post saying that 850MHz is not supported because of hardware layout not enough? How do people decide that they want quad band phones without knowing what they really are and why they would want them (besides wow, quad band works everywhere, right? Great, I'll just get quad band so I never have to think!)? Because simply put, IT WONT WORK in rural areas remotely as well as another cell phone supporting both bands. Been there done that. Cant you get it!? Anyway I will unsubscribe as I am not interested in non-factual hothead behavior. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
iPhone doesn't have GPS, so how does that fit your mythical project? GPS works in the US. It is a US invention. It is owned by the US. It is run by the US. We donate it to the world. Why would it not work in the US? It works EVERYWHERE, that's why it's called Global Positioning System. How are there so many people who know so little about cell phones, GPS, and PDAs that claim to be supporting projects on this phone? How did you convince your company to start these projects? Why was Michael's initial post saying that 850MHz is not supported because of hardware layout not enough? How do people decide that they want quad band phones without knowing what they really are and why they would want them (besides wow, quad band works everywhere, right? Great, I'll just get quad band so I never have to think!)? On 11/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We were willing to wait for the commercial version to start our development, but if that is not going to be functional in the USA in remote areas like other cellphones, then it is lights-out for any possible future vendor here in the USA who want to incorporate this in to an existing product line. Thats a fact not a wine. I will get a development kit from Apple and live with it. Our products need a gps/phone/computer system as an add-on and it cant wait past January 2008. If the GPS works great I will buy it as a PDA in future once it is released. This morning the project using the NEO was canned, reasons are, ever shifting timetables and secondly, too much risk when the rug is pulled from under your feet by FIC suddenly not supporting US frequency bands, while there are other alternatives such as Iphone available with a development kit that might meet our development scenario -- (about just). Unfortunately rural access is crucial for our applications, so it just became a no-no. Anyway thanks to all for the input, and the NEO was a great idea till now, unfortunately it does not seem if it will be available in a working state within the next year here in the USA. All of luck with OpenMoko. Bye. Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: In this case it is a very valid issue and definitely not a complaint or a whine. It basically tanks one of the largest consumer bases and it tanks my project in my company until I find something else. Well the man at FIC (Michael) said that this issue is being evaluated, i'm not associated with fic in any way so anything i'm writing is because i've read the mails coming from this mailing list. You left out one important part in your mail below. No, i've left anything because the subject of this mail is regarding the 850MHz issue, GPS is not involved with it. Well, then add in the WIKI that GPS will still work in NA, else it only makes matters worse for marketing and is misleading by not disclosing all the features that will work.. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Thursday 08 November 2007 16:44:45 Randall Mason wrote: iPhone doesn't have GPS, so how does that fit your mythical project? GPS works in the US. It is a US invention. It is owned by the US. It is run by the US. We donate it to the world. Why would it not work in the US? It works EVERYWHERE, that's why it's called Global Positioning System. donated, under the condition that you (as in the nation) have the sole right to turn it of at any time. lets never forget, its a military system, designed to guide weapons and soldiers. that its being used for civilian uses are a afterthought more then anything else. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 03:44 +0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: (Same problem with Global Locate regarding the GPS driver) It might be nice to just send out the old module, even if it theoretically isn't useful, because somebody might be willing to hack it to make it work. Right now we have nothing. On the topic of 850 MHz, it is a problem that it's not supported. It's early days, so I don't care about it for the current phone - I can get by without it. But I'd like to hear if there are serious plans to add this band to a future revision of the phone, or whether this is simply not possible. Even if you have a build option for 850 vs. 900, that's not a good solution - I want a phone that works everywhere, not a phone that works everywhere close to me. So I hope that this is something that can happen with a future revision of the phone, even if it's not the very next revision. I'm not expecting a quick answer on this - just wanted to state my personal concerns on this, which I think are mirrored by a few other Western Hemispheroids on the list. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I wouldn't have imagined I'd see a less productive contribution than the _rest_ of this discussion, but I guess it goes to show how mistaken one can be. I won't be hurt if you don't use GPS. On 11/8/07 8:08 AM, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 08 November 2007 16:44:45 Randall Mason wrote: iPhone doesn't have GPS, so how does that fit your mythical project? GPS works in the US. It is a US invention. It is owned by the US. It is run by the US. We donate it to the world. Why would it not work in the US? It works EVERYWHERE, that's why it's called Global Positioning System. donated, under the condition that you (as in the nation) have the sole right to turn it of at any time. lets never forget, its a military system, designed to guide weapons and soldiers. that its being used for civilian uses are a afterthought more then anything else. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I want to apologize for this post. This post has nothing to do with community. It is just insulting to many people. I was wrong to post this and I hope the people who felt insulted will accept my apology. Stupid posts like mine are something that just drive people apart and that is NOT community. Sometimes I wish I could have never said something. Now is one of those times. Randall On 11/8/07, Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: iPhone doesn't have GPS, so how does that fit your mythical project? GPS works in the US. It is a US invention. It is owned by the US. It is run by the US. We donate it to the world. Why would it not work in the US? It works EVERYWHERE, that's why it's called Global Positioning System. How are there so many people who know so little about cell phones, GPS, and PDAs that claim to be supporting projects on this phone? How did you convince your company to start these projects? Why was Michael's initial post saying that 850MHz is not supported because of hardware layout not enough? How do people decide that they want quad band phones without knowing what they really are and why they would want them (besides wow, quad band works everywhere, right? Great, I'll just get quad band so I never have to think!)? On 11/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We were willing to wait for the commercial version to start our development, but if that is not going to be functional in the USA in remote areas like other cellphones, then it is lights-out for any possible future vendor here in the USA who want to incorporate this in to an existing product line. Thats a fact not a wine. I will get a development kit from Apple and live with it. Our products need a gps/phone/computer system as an add-on and it cant wait past January 2008. If the GPS works great I will buy it as a PDA in future once it is released. This morning the project using the NEO was canned, reasons are, ever shifting timetables and secondly, too much risk when the rug is pulled from under your feet by FIC suddenly not supporting US frequency bands, while there are other alternatives such as Iphone available with a development kit that might meet our development scenario -- (about just). Unfortunately rural access is crucial for our applications, so it just became a no-no. Anyway thanks to all for the input, and the NEO was a great idea till now, unfortunately it does not seem if it will be available in a working state within the next year here in the USA. All of luck with OpenMoko. Bye. Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: In this case it is a very valid issue and definitely not a complaint or a whine. It basically tanks one of the largest consumer bases and it tanks my project in my company until I find something else. Well the man at FIC (Michael) said that this issue is being evaluated, i'm not associated with fic in any way so anything i'm writing is because i've read the mails coming from this mailing list. You left out one important part in your mail below. No, i've left anything because the subject of this mail is regarding the 850MHz issue, GPS is not involved with it. Well, then add in the WIKI that GPS will still work in NA, else it only makes matters worse for marketing and is misleading by not disclosing all the features that will work.. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Sorry. I was unclear. I was thinking from apples perspective. Releasing an application development kit is likely to increase the pressure on apple to add both Bluetooth gps and keyboard support. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 8, 2007, at 8:40 AM, Doug Sutherland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alan wrote: Adding gps to the iPhone is likely to be a minor Bluetooth driver project. But you don't have source, so this minor project becomes impossible. The only way that is going to happen is if/when Apple integrates such driver support into the device. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Mason... I think we are all terribly frustrated with the events of the last few days and I think this frustration is amplified by how much we all desire to see OpenMoko to succeed. We all want the perfect smartphone. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 8, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to apologize for this post. This post has nothing to do with community. It is just insulting to many people. I was wrong to post this and I hope the people who felt insulted will accept my apology. Stupid posts like mine are something that just drive people apart and that is NOT community. Sometimes I wish I could have never said something. Now is one of those times. Randall On 11/8/07, Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: iPhone doesn't have GPS, so how does that fit your mythical project? GPS works in the US. It is a US invention. It is owned by the US. It is run by the US. We donate it to the world. Why would it not work in the US? It works EVERYWHERE, that's why it's called Global Positioning System. How are there so many people who know so little about cell phones, GPS, and PDAs that claim to be supporting projects on this phone? How did you convince your company to start these projects? Why was Michael's initial post saying that 850MHz is not supported because of hardware layout not enough? How do people decide that they want quad band phones without knowing what they really are and why they would want them (besides wow, quad band works everywhere, right? Great, I'll just get quad band so I never have to think!)? On 11/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We were willing to wait for the commercial version to start our development, but if that is not going to be functional in the USA in remote areas like other cellphones, then it is lights-out for any possible future vendor here in the USA who want to incorporate this in to an existing product line. Thats a fact not a wine. I will get a development kit from Apple and live with it. Our products need a gps/phone/computer system as an add-on and it cant wait past January 2008. If the GPS works great I will buy it as a PDA in future once it is released. This morning the project using the NEO was canned, reasons are, ever shifting timetables and secondly, too much risk when the rug is pulled from under your feet by FIC suddenly not supporting US frequency bands, while there are other alternatives such as Iphone available with a development kit that might meet our development scenario -- (about just). Unfortunately rural access is crucial for our applications, so it just became a no-no. Anyway thanks to all for the input, and the NEO was a great idea till now, unfortunately it does not seem if it will be available in a working state within the next year here in the USA. All of luck with OpenMoko. Bye. Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: In this case it is a very valid issue and definitely not a complaint or a whine. It basically tanks one of the largest consumer bases and it tanks my project in my company until I find something else. Well the man at FIC (Michael) said that this issue is being evaluated, i'm not associated with fic in any way so anything i'm writing is because i've read the mails coming from this mailing list. You left out one important part in your mail below. No, i've left anything because the subject of this mail is regarding the 850MHz issue, GPS is not involved with it. Well, then add in the WIKI that GPS will still work in NA, else it only makes matters worse for marketing and is misleading by not disclosing all the features that will work.. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Alan wrote: Adding gps to the iPhone is likely to be a minor Bluetooth driver project. But you don't have source, so this minor project becomes impossible. The only way that is going to happen is if/when Apple integrates such driver support into the device. -- Doug___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I understand distrust of the availability and governance of GPS services by parties outside (and inside) the US, but there is a valid PoV that the rest of world rides free on those demonic US DoD funded satellites. Let's use up more discussion bandwidth cursing the darkness. David Schlesinger wrote: I wouldn't have imagined I'd see a less productive contribution than the _rest_ of this discussion, but I guess it goes to show how mistaken one can be. I won't be hurt if you don't use GPS. On 11/8/07 8:08 AM, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 08 November 2007 16:44:45 Randall Mason wrote: iPhone doesn't have GPS, so how does that fit your mythical project? GPS works in the US. It is a US invention. It is owned by the US. It is run by the US. We donate it to the world. Why would it not work in the US? It works EVERYWHERE, that's why it's called Global Positioning System. donated, under the condition that you (as in the nation) have the sole right to turn it of at any time. lets never forget, its a military system, designed to guide weapons and soldiers. that its being used for civilian uses are a afterthought more then anything else. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Bill Weinberg - Embedded and Open Source Analyst / Consultant http://www.linuxpundit.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 831-662-2857 (p) | 408-568-2492 (m) | 831-662-2852 (f) Blogs: http://activeanalysis.net/blog/18 http://linux-foundation.org/weblogs/mobile ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Adding gps to the iPhone is likely to be a minor Bluetooth driver project. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 8, 2007, at 7:44 AM, Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: iPhone doesn't have GPS, so how does that fit your mythical project? GPS works in the US. It is a US invention. It is owned by the US. It is run by the US. We donate it to the world. Why would it not work in the US? It works EVERYWHERE, that's why it's called Global Positioning System. How are there so many people who know so little about cell phones, GPS, and PDAs that claim to be supporting projects on this phone? How did you convince your company to start these projects? Why was Michael's initial post saying that 850MHz is not supported because of hardware layout not enough? How do people decide that they want quad band phones without knowing what they really are and why they would want them (besides wow, quad band works everywhere, right? Great, I'll just get quad band so I never have to think!)? On 11/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We were willing to wait for the commercial version to start our development, but if that is not going to be functional in the USA in remote areas like other cellphones, then it is lights-out for any possible future vendor here in the USA who want to incorporate this in to an existing product line. Thats a fact not a wine. I will get a development kit from Apple and live with it. Our products need a gps/phone/computer system as an add-on and it cant wait past January 2008. If the GPS works great I will buy it as a PDA in future once it is released. This morning the project using the NEO was canned, reasons are, ever shifting timetables and secondly, too much risk when the rug is pulled from under your feet by FIC suddenly not supporting US frequency bands, while there are other alternatives such as Iphone available with a development kit that might meet our development scenario -- (about just). Unfortunately rural access is crucial for our applications, so it just became a no-no. Anyway thanks to all for the input, and the NEO was a great idea till now, unfortunately it does not seem if it will be available in a working state within the next year here in the USA. All of luck with OpenMoko. Bye. Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: In this case it is a very valid issue and definitely not a complaint or a whine. It basically tanks one of the largest consumer bases and it tanks my project in my company until I find something else. Well the man at FIC (Michael) said that this issue is being evaluated, i'm not associated with fic in any way so anything i'm writing is because i've read the mails coming from this mailing list. You left out one important part in your mail below. No, i've left anything because the subject of this mail is regarding the 850MHz issue, GPS is not involved with it. Well, then add in the WIKI that GPS will still work in NA, else it only makes matters worse for marketing and is misleading by not disclosing all the features that will work.. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 23:46 +0100, AVee wrote: I think it whould help an awfull lot, it would allow you to switch firmware before leaving to an 850 or 900 area. In a lot af cases that will involve a air travel and a somewhat longer stay in the 'other frequency' area. If it could be just a build option I also can imagine a bit of software which makes the switch trivial. I wish it were so, but what I mean by a build option is that they put a different part on the board if you want 850 vs. 900. Which I think is what was proposed. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Wednesday 07 November 2007 21:39, Tommi Virtanen wrote: The only reason USA picked non-standard frequencies was because they had already licensed the 900 and 1800 MHz bands to something else. Just totaly useless curiousity, but does anyone know what these bands are used for in the US? -- Endless Loop, n.: see Loop, Endless. Loop, Endless, n.: see Endless Loop. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I forgot to mention, with the modules I have looked at and also worked with, you send a command over the serial port to switch bands. That is all. Regarding the board design dilemma, I suppose that means the antenna as is probably part of the pcb board is not tuned to be quad band. It must be possible because thousands of other phones work that way. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
You should not have to switch firmware for the different bands. That would be insanity. A quad band module should be able to use one image for everything. That apparently isn't the case at the moment, but it should be, and hopefully they are working towards that end. Not sure what the deal is with calypso but I have looked very closely at several other quad band modules and there is none of this problem. Check out for example the telit modules and the mult-tech modules. They are likely more expensive but they definitely do quad band and they don't need different firmware for different bands. http://www.multitech.com/PRODUCTS/Families/SocketModemEDGE/ http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68 Load different firmware to travel? WTF? Dear FIC please work on quad band with single firmware. If calypso is problematic for this then please ditch it and get another module, there are many many to choose from and gsm serial code is standard so there should not be a huge number of changes required. I noticed that TI is very secretive and protective of their cell technology. I am starting to think that it's a bad choice. I have all the docs for the above two modules and everything is well documented and ready to go. They both have direct antenna connector, although the telit surface mount modules allow you to make part of the pcb board the antenna. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Thursday 08 November 2007 17:14, Ted Lemon wrote: On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 03:44 +0800, Michael Shiloh wrote: Even if you have a build option for 850 vs. 900, that's not a good solution - I want a phone that works everywhere, not a phone that works everywhere close to me. I think it whould help an awfull lot, it would allow you to switch firmware before leaving to an 850 or 900 area. In a lot af cases that will involve a air travel and a somewhat longer stay in the 'other frequency' area. If it could be just a build option I also can imagine a bit of software which makes the switch trivial. However, the issue appears to involve hardware as well, so I don't have high hopes for that. But maybe thet manage to get a jumper on the board or something... AVee -- AMAZING BUT TRUE ... If all the salmon caught in Canada in one year were laid end to end across the Sahara Desert, the smell would be absolutely awful. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Am 07.11.2007 um 19:08 schrieb Gabriel Ambuehl: On Wednesday 07 November 2007 18:23:18 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Problem is I dont want to buy a lot of $750 US units if I could just develop on e.g. gphone or iphone which will be way cheaper. You need not buy many units yourself - there is an idea for a group purchase. So if you can convince (many) others so that it goes beyond the order quantity of the next price scale it can go down to less than $600. Even then, unless someone turns this in a complete phone, quite some bit of engineering will be needed to turn an SBC plus touchscreen into a proper phone... Not to mention software support for it. But I'd sure love the Just needs a plastic case (plus stylus) case. Everything else is available (charger, battery, etc.). possible form factor (3.5 VGA with little bigger case). Software: Why not OpenMoko or Qtopia or QuantumSTEP? It seems to be a quite small step. CompuLabs already provides Angstrom (previously called OpenZaurus). See: http://www.compulab.co.il/x270em/download ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Doug Sutherland skrev: 850Mhz is odd because north america is big. Output power 2 watt versus 1 watt for 1900 Mhz. To cover rural areas, less towers required for 850Mhz. There will be more not less 850 support in the future. Europe is much more congested so can justify more towers with less output power on phones. Not really true... Europe have GSM 900/1800... 850 is not that big a difference from 900, nether is 1900 from 1800. Probably the 900 and 1800 bands was occupied in the us. However, Ericson and Nokia are pushing GSM 450 for the 3:d world and the most remote arias in richer countrys. So we might end up with the need for 5 GSM band: 450/900/1800 for 'the world' and 850/1900 (and possibly 450) for 'parts of America'. The part with lower frequency give bigger coverage is true. 900 reach ~twice as far as 1800, cowering ~four times the area. 450 will reach ~twice as far as 900, cowering ~sixteen times the area 1800 cover. Thats the rational for GSM 450. Hope the Neo1973 GTA2v4 will be released fast as possably as is. Then a 850/1800/1900 as soon as posably. Don't think a sales organization more then the already existing one need to be built in north America before the 850/1800/1900 version is ready. If this is reconfigurable in soft/firmware... It's realy a quad band phone... You just have to configure what three band to listen to. I Know of no place having 850 and 900 in the same aria. I have litle hope for that tho... It sounds like hw changes is needed :-( /LaH ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I did not look further as Neo was about 100% what I was looking for. Thanks to all for the help. Bye. Unfortunately, I think this is a very good summary of the issue. The Neo is still primarily a developer phone w/o the 850 band, at least here in NA. Since that's where I am, it's no longer an option. It's a great project. But for now, bye. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
That's a shame. Have a look at the upcoming GSM-enabled h/w from Unicon Systems: http://www.uniconsys.com/ Bill W. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just checked the manual, it is 850 / 1900 So it really seems to be a bad idea to continue with NEO here in the states. Real pity as it was about the perfect solution for some of our products. Anyone has an idea of another phone-pda that can at least allow to compile your own programs? I need phones for customers as service modules so they need to be able to run Linux and be open enough to accept compilers for Console programs written in C, fpk, Ada. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Bill Weinberg - Embedded and Open Source Analyst / Consultant http://www.linuxpundit.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 831-662-2857 (p) | 408-568-2492 (m) | 831-662-2852 (f) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
I just checked the manual, it is 850 / 1900 So it really seems to be a bad idea to continue with NEO here in the states. Real pity as it was about the perfect solution for some of our products. Anyone has an idea of another phone-pda that can at least allow to compile your own programs? I need phones for customers as service modules so they need to be able to run Linux and be open enough to accept compilers for Console programs written in C, fpk, Ada. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Edwin Lock writes: Exactly, North America(and Canada) apparently uses 850/1800 and the rest of the world uses 900/1900. And without 850 you won't have coverage in North America in a lot of places, so practically it won't work. Lucky I like in the Netherlands:) I thought US was 850/1900, ROTW was 900/1800 (not that this affects the 850 issue, but just for completeness) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Yes well it is the dreaded silly 110V/220V, Pal/NTSC, lb/kg standards monster again. Not long ago (10 yeqrs ago) there were a lot of resistance to GSM here which is just not understandable and luckily it is getting way more foothold. I am currently with T-Mobile as they always were a GSM shop. The phone with the ultimate best coverage for me here in the states on GSM is an Old Siemens M56 on T-Mobile. I tried several new phones/services which just died out in the sticks. Does anyone know if the Siemens M56 was a dual or single band phone? If the band-spec is contained in the Neo, I would not be worried about it. thanks Mikko J Rauhala wrote: On ke, 2007-11-07 at 10:31 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I cannot get the original reference to why this is an issue for North American users. NA uses the unusual 850 MHz and 1900 MHz bands for GSM. The Neo, at least as it will be first available, will not support 850 MHz (but will 1900 MHz). This means that it can work in NA, _but_ will get worse coverage than GSM phones capable of also 850 MHz operation. According to my second-hand understanding of the situation, of the major US GSM providers, T-Mobile has more 1900 MHz coverage than ATT/Cingular, and that major cities may have decent amounts of it as opposed to rural areas. It's vague, but HTH. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Wednesday 07 November 2007 20:02:47 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Just needs a plastic case (plus stylus) case. Everything else is available (charger, battery, etc.). Well if someone can provide a complete unit that boots into OpenMoko for ~500USD (and can make use of WiFi), I'll likely buy it. Plus points if it has QWERTY or a somewhat decent cam :P possible form factor (3.5 VGA with little bigger case). Software: Why not OpenMoko or Qtopia or QuantumSTEP? It seems to be a quite small step. CompuLabs already provides Angstrom (previously called OpenZaurus). See: Didnt know they had Angstrom for it. That sure helps. But how do you get Angstrom onto the board? Do you need JTAG for that? Or can it boot from SD or USB the way it's shipped? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Didnt know they had Angstrom for it. That sure helps. But how do you get Angstrom onto the board? Do you need JTAG for that? Or can it boot from SD or USB the way it's shipped? According to http://www.compulab.co.il/x270em/download/x270-em-linux-doc.zip it appears tthat it can boot and flash from an USB memory stick. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
http://www.proficio.ca/ Not really true... Europe have GSM 900/1800... They have two frequencies for different reasons. 1800 was added due to congestion on 900. In North America 850Mhz is longer distance due to higher output power. Read specs on cellular modules (hardware) and you will see 850Mhz is higher output power. That is why it is used more often in rural areas. It can be hundreds of miles between cities over here. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
No, actually Unicon Systems have product coming shortly (Dec/Jan) with smaller and larger screen sizes and more memory, as needed. I have seen it in their offices! Contact Marius Kaz for roadmap and delivery info : Marius Kaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: That's a shame. Have a look at the upcoming GSM-enabled h/w from Unicon Systems: http://www.uniconsys.com/ Good pointer, and already available. But... - 32 MB SDRAM - 32 MB flash - Screen: - TFT LCD QVGA 3.5'' 16M color screen ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Bill Weinberg - Embedded and Open Source Analyst / Consultant http://www.linuxpundit.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 831-662-2857 (p) | 408-568-2492 (m) | 831-662-2852 (f) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Wednesday 07 November 2007 18:23:18 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Problem is I dont want to buy a lot of $750 US units if I could just develop on e.g. gphone or iphone which will be way cheaper. You need not buy many units yourself - there is an idea for a group purchase. So if you can convince (many) others so that it goes beyond the order quantity of the next price scale it can go down to less than $600. Even then, unless someone turns this in a complete phone, quite some bit of engineering will be needed to turn an SBC plus touchscreen into a proper phone... Not to mention software support for it. But I'd sure love the possible form factor (3.5 VGA with little bigger case). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
The 850 Mhz capability of the radio is disabled. Article quote: If you're in a major metropolitan area, you probably won't need the 850 MHz band, but if you travel to secondary areas regularly, you will find the extra coverage of the 850 MHz band to be valuable. Looking into the future, it is probable we'll see increased use of 850 MHz to expand GSM's overall coverage into more of the country. And then, looking further into the future, it is possible we'll see 1900 MHz coverage duplicating the 850 MHz coverage. Bottom line : If you travel out of the main cities, you'll definitely benefit from a phone that supports both 850 MHz and 1900 MHz. http://www.thetravelinsider.info/roadwarriorcontent/quadbandphones.htm I don't know many North Americans who do not travel outside of main cities. 850Mhz What this means for future versions depends on if they make the changes to support 850Mhz. The lack of 850Mhz support Antigua, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Cayman Islands, Colombia, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvadore, Grenada, Guam, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Montserrat, Nicaragua, Northern Mariana Islands, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, Turks and Caicos Islands, United States, Venzuela. Also, regarding the comment that some carriers only operate 1900, keep in mind that you ROAM onto partner networks. Even if your provider only uses 1900, there are good odds that you actually can and possibly do use 850 outside of major cities. If you have T-Mobile that doesn't mean you don't use other networks. You probably don't even know you are using them ... Mikko wrote: Does anyone know if the Siemens M56 was a dual or single band phone? If the band-spec is contained in the Neo, I would not be worried about it. M56 is 850/1900. Worry about lack of 850. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Am 07.11.2007 um 17:20 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Anyone has an idea of another phone-pda that can at least allow to compile your own programs? I need phones for customers as service modules so they need to be able to run Linux and be open enough to accept compilers for Console programs written in C, fpk, Ada. What about http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Compulab_EM-X270 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
That's a shame. Have a look at the upcoming GSM-enabled h/w from Unicon Systems: http://www.uniconsys.com/ Good pointer, and already available. But... - 32 MB SDRAM - 32 MB flash - Screen: - TFT LCD QVGA 3.5'' 16M color screen ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Am 07.11.2007 um 17:42 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Problem is I dont want to buy a lot of $750 US units if I could just develop on e.g. gphone or iphone which will be way cheaper. You need not buy many units yourself - there is an idea for a group purchase. So if you can convince (many) others so that it goes beyond the order quantity of the next price scale it can go down to less than $600. An unlocked iPhone is IMHO at $500 and above and the gPhone has mutated into Android (i.e. not a phone but a Linux phone stack). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Edwin Lock wrote: North America(and Canada) apparently uses 850/1800 and the rest of the world uses 900/1900. No, North America uses 850/1900 and most of the rest of the world uses 900/1800, but there are MANY MANY countries that use 1900 and more than just North America uses 850. And Canada is in North America eh LOL -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
850Mhz is odd because north america is big. Output power 2 watt versus 1 watt for 1900 Mhz. To cover rural areas, less towers required for 850Mhz. There will be more not less 850 support in the future. Europe is much more congested so can justify more towers with less output power on phones. I hope Neo gets this support for 850Mhz in the next version. I love the idea but it doesn't make sense for most folks on this side of the pond to buy what would effectively be a single band phone. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Al Johnson wrote: We should find out one way or the other reasonably soon. Like we'd know reasonably soon about the TI modem firmware delivery system that they told us about almost a month ago? ;o) Seriously, if they can fix the 3G issue so I can just use TMobile for the time being, then great, I'll keep my Neo. But if I have to wait much longer just for the modem firmware upgrade, then this 850 issue is a serious deal breaker and I want a refund. -id ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
All may not be lost. FIC are looking at whether 850/1800/1900 is possible with the existing hardware. We should find out one way or the other reasonably soon. On Wednesday 07 November 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Problem is I dont want to buy a lot of $750 US units if I could just develop on e.g. gphone or iphone which will be way cheaper. If it is OTS, then it is way more reliable due to massicve customer feedback than an obscure OEM, but it is a good idea thanks. It seems I will have to go back to the drawing board and find something close to the Neo. I did not look further as Neo was about 100% what I was looking for. Thanks to all for the help. Bye. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Problem is I dont want to buy a lot of $750 US units if I could just develop on e.g. gphone or iphone which will be way cheaper. If it is OTS, then it is way more reliable due to massicve customer feedback than an obscure OEM, but it is a good idea thanks. It seems I will have to go back to the drawing board and find something close to the Neo. I did not look further as Neo was about 100% what I was looking for. Thanks to all for the help. Bye. Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 07.11.2007 um 17:20 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Anyone has an idea of another phone-pda that can at least allow to compile your own programs? I need phones for customers as service modules so they need to be able to run Linux and be open enough to accept compilers for Console programs written in C, fpk, Ada. What about http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Compulab_EM-X270 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Sorry, I cannot get the original reference to why this is an issue for North American users. Can someone just give me a 2-5 liner of what this means to a user that will buy commercial versions released later this year as my interest is for product integration with existing products, so I need to know if the commercial version will not function in the US (if I read right) Thanks ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 at 12:42:28PM -0500, Doug Sutherland wrote:
850Mhz is odd because north america is big.
Output power 2 watt versus 1 watt for 1900 Mhz.
To cover rural areas, less towers required for 850Mhz.
There will be more not less 850 support in the future.
Europe is much more congested so can justify more
towers with less output power on phones.
On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 02:28:28PM -0500, Doug Sutherland wrote:
Not really true... Europe have GSM 900/1800...
They have two frequencies for different reasons.
1800 was added due to congestion on 900. In
North America 850Mhz is longer distance due
to higher output power. Read specs on cellular
modules (hardware) and you will see 850Mhz
is higher output power. That is why it is used
more often in rural areas. It can be hundreds
of miles between cities over here.
The level of confusion wrt 850 MHz is starting to annoy me, gotta jump
in.
There is *no* difference in range of 850 vs 900 MHz, or 1900 vs 1800
MHz. Both 850 and 900 use 2 watts, both 1800 and 1900 use 1 watt.
Stop claiming 850 is somehow better than 900.
The only reason USA picked non-standard frequencies was because they
had already licensed the 900 and 1800 MHz bands to something else.
--
:(){ :|:};:
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Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
On ke, 2007-11-07 at 10:31 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I cannot get the original reference to why this is an issue for North American users. NA uses the unusual 850 MHz and 1900 MHz bands for GSM. The Neo, at least as it will be first available, will not support 850 MHz (but will 1900 MHz). This means that it can work in NA, _but_ will get worse coverage than GSM phones capable of also 850 MHz operation. According to my second-hand understanding of the situation, of the major US GSM providers, T-Mobile has more 1900 MHz coverage than ATT/Cingular, and that major cities may have decent amounts of it as opposed to rural areas. It's vague, but HTH. -- Mikko J Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Helsinki ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Alright I stand corrected on one aspect of this, but 850Mhz (specficied power) is double the output power of 1900Mhz and is used extensively in rural areas. Any future version of Neo will need 850/1900 for North America. And as stated earlier, these countries also use 850Mhz: Antigua, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Cayman Islands, Colombia, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvadore, Grenada, Guam, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Montserrat, Nicaragua, Northern Mariana Islands, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, Turks and Caicos Islands, United States, Venzuela. It's crazy that 850 is disabled, crazier that it's called quad band. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Gphone and 850, perspectives
So, the North AND Southern American continents, in short, the entire western hemisphere, then ? Gareth -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Sutherland Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 4:34 PM To: List for OpenMoko community discussion Subject: Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives Alright I stand corrected on one aspect of this, but 850Mhz (specficied power) is double the output power of 1900Mhz and is used extensively in rural areas. Any future version of Neo will need 850/1900 for North America. And as stated earlier, these countries also use 850Mhz: Antigua, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Cayman Islands, Colombia, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvadore, Grenada, Guam, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Montserrat, Nicaragua, Northern Mariana Islands, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, Turks and Caicos Islands, United States, Venzuela. It's crazy that 850 is disabled, crazier that it's called quad band. -- Doug ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community This message is the property of Southern Wine Spirits or its affiliates. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may constitute as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, notify us immediately by telephone and (i) destroy this message if a facsimile or (ii) delete this message immediately if this is an electronic communication. Thank you. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
So, ok, the NEO does NOT support 850/1900 MHz band, this is an issue, FIC is informed of that and i think that they are evaluating the possibilities to make it working, so please just stop crying at the list my neo here isn't working... ok, i understand the problem and i understand you, but receiving a tons of similar mail is boring. AFAIK FIC members read the list, and now are just considering some solutions (at least i hope). So in conclusion, the replies at the FAQ on this issue are (forgive me if appear a bit rude but it's due to my english): I live in north america, i have my NEO dev edition and i can't get the signal, what i can do? sell your neo, it's an hardware/firmware/software issue, so it can't be fixed with a simple software upgrade I need the 850 support should i buy the neo now? No you don't have to until you want a good pda whitout the possibility to make phone calls I live in NA and i usually stay in my big city, will the neo get the signal? May be, it will probably get it but it's not assured, you can try to verify somehow if the bands supported by the neo are covering your area What can i do to make the neo supporting those bands? you can do nothing What is FIC doing about this? Don't know, i hope they are considering some solutions for this issue Last but not least: which are the solutions which FIC is considering? The solutions are: 1) do nothing, at least for the GTA02, maybe a fix in GTA03 or something similar 2) produce 2 separate phone, 1 for the NA and another one for the Rest Of The World (identical phone except the capability to get the 850/1900 band INSTEAD the 900/1800 one) 3) make a nice community poll to ask if the members can wait another 2 month (the time is just something I think) to redesign the hardware and fix the firmware so that we can have a full quad band phone) The 3rd solution was not proposed but it's another way to solve the problem, honestly i don't mind about the quad band, i live in italy and i don't think i'll ever come to america, if i'll do that i'll use some other cheap phone, but i think that it's important for other community member to have it working in quad band way, so i'll wait if the community will decide to wait and obviously FIC will consider this solution. Cya! Pietro P.S. We will wait for some FIC official solution. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Mikko Rauhala wrote: Those who cry direct to FIC, and not on lists, about returning phones should IMAO be accommodated; they bought a quad-band device, even if it was a development one. However, in the interest of expediency, it'd be nice if those devices could find new homes directly instead. A wiki-page for I'll buy your triband GTA01 off you, perchance?) Great idea. I'll set this wiki page up (or any of you could). And thanks for your thoughtful and detailed perspective! Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Mikko 850 MHz: 1) Sucks for NA people, for sure. Luckily I have no intention of traveling there (well, maybe Canada sometime), but I feel the pain of those stuck there. poor schmucks who are stuck in Canada. that's priceless. :) 2) It _does_ seem like a big blunder on the part of FIC. This is the kind of thing that makes leadership rethink the flow or responsibility and accountability in an organization. It may be a reason for the reorganizations we've heard about. It's a great idea to get the prototype phones out there, but it's a problem that the feedback that would have helped the situation didn't find its way to someone who was assigned to figure it out. Especially feedback like I've had the phone for months now and I haven't been able to make one phone call. -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
