Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour
+1 on Rui's, Google+ and reposted: https://plus.google.com/114836911973677582368#114836911973677582368/posts and retweeted Rui's tweet http://twitter.com/#!/nls_hvrt Keep it going! -- Microsoft gives you windows, Linux gives you the whole house. --Doorgestuurd bericht in de bijlage-- From: r...@1407.org To: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 13:59:33 + Subject: Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour I just posted about it in my blog and Google+ page, now forwarding it to identi.ca (which forwards it to twitter). http://blog.1407.org/2012/01/01/gta04-free-software-smartphone-group-buy/ https://plus.google.com/111476378907603803049/posts/5vbJyoeDSLu http://identi.ca/notice/87924177 http://twitter.com/#!/RuiSeabra/status/153475257783689216 I think we should make more publicity about this in places where more people may reach these lists here are preaching to the choir, some outreach is a must! Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour
I just posted about it in my blog and Google+ page, now forwarding it to identi.ca (which forwards it to twitter). http://blog.1407.org/2012/01/01/gta04-free-software-smartphone-group-buy/ https://plus.google.com/111476378907603803049/posts/5vbJyoeDSLu http://identi.ca/notice/87924177 http://twitter.com/#!/RuiSeabra/status/153475257783689216 I think we should make more publicity about this in places where more people may reach these lists here are preaching to the choir, some outreach is a must! Rui On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 11:50:40 +0100 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Hi all, that status of the GTA04 mass market group tour http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%20Group%20Tour is that we have: * passed half time yesterday * first early bird batch is sold out * but still only 16% preorders (56 units) * we have approx. 6 weeks left to fill the remaining gap of 84 % So I would say that we are still far away from becoming successful. If I read that over 2 Million new Android units have been activated over the Christmas holidays [1] and 4 Million iOS devices just on Christmas day [2], I can't believe that we do not find 350 potential buyers in 60 days... Well, we don't have a real mass market device and I think we should not even pretend to have one, in this phase. Because we are then compared to the 100 EUR Huawei Android/UMTS units where one has to suspect that the workers in China are being ripped off... What do you think should we do to make this group tour a success? * extend the subscription timeframe until we reach 100%? * ask for/collect donations to extend the early bird rebates? Some sort of sponsorship by community members for community members who can't afford a new GTA04 immediately? * have more resellers or buying groups to order batches of 10 units? * talk more about the benefits and special features one can only find in a GTA04 and nowhere else? * subsidize GTA04 boards by combining them with a UMTS contract? * offer to pay only part of the price by end of the subscription time frame so that we can already buy the expensive and difficult to source components, but postpone production individually until the remaining payments arrive? (i.e. pay 200 EUR until 10th Feb and the remainder until May) More ideas are welcome! But please keep in mind that we can't develop something completely new until February and components cost what they cost... The simpler the idea the better! And, there may be ideas which are too big for a single community member, but may become feasible if we all work together, contributing many small pieces. Curious about your ideas, Nikolaus [1]: http://www.giga.de/macnews/newsticker/ios-gegen-android-42-millionen-ios-26-millionen-android-aktivierungen-am-weihnachtstag-256890 [2]: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/27/holiday-gifts-drive-new-ios-device-activations-sharply-higher/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
2011/12/29 Neal H. Walfield n...@walfield.org: First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. In my opinion the GTA02 requirement is the unfortunate limiting factor (in additition to lack of publicity, but it perhaps wouldn't help to enough extent with the GTA02 requirement). That, and the fact that many GTA02 buyers are not _that_ interested in GTA04 as they could and should be. This is just speculation, but I believe that since FreeRunner was well advertised, too well from some perspectives, it was bought by many people expecting a working phone out-of-the-box, freedom issues important but secondary. They got disappointed over a long period of problems, and possibly lost their hope for similar free phone efforts since Om Inc also stopped phone business and years passed. Another big part of the FreeRunner owners are people interested in general in cool hackable devices, and in 2008 FreeRunner was IMHO easily the coolest hackable and own OS installable mobile computer device in existence. The freedomness was a plus but not necessarily the driving factor for the big mass of FreeRunner buyers. Now there is a multitude of cool hackable devices - Pandaboard, Raspberry Pi and many others, in addition to mainstream phone devices like at least Nokia N9 which also can be run with alternative OS like Mer/Nemo(/SHR/Debian), while the default OS is very hackable Debianish GNU/Linux as well. They are free enough for many of the original FreeRunner buyers, I'd believe. Both of these groups, I think, have the majority of currently available GTA02:s ie. the target group for GTA04 buyers, but the devices are possibly sleeping in the drawers while a lot of other cool hacker devices are out there. GTA04 is just one another option, and it has the minus side of not being the coolest gadget of 2012, unless you are interested in precisely 100% free software phone, while the GTA02 interest group who also ended up buying GTA02 was larger. The GTA02 case was also kind of cool or at least ok in 2008, but nowadays to make similar wow effect you'd need GTA04 to be not just an expensive motherboard upgrade to an used and old pretty bulky external case from 2008. And as mentioned, still a few people also have FreeRunner as a functional, primary phone, and they can't risk it. I have two FreeRunners and also N9 so I could risk mine and ordered a piece of GTA04 group order of course. Also notable is that I didn't even consider doing the motherboard upgrade myself, but ordered the service from Golden Delicious. The various marketing ideas seem great, since GTA04 is a _really_ cool device for many user/hacker groups. I just fear the GTA02 requirement problem doesn't go away since it's very hard to reach current GTA02 owners so that they could eg. pass their GTA02 on if they're not interested themselves of buying GTA04. -Timo (btw: I can let go of my other FreeRunner, GTA02a5, for just postage costs + eg. 10/15€ extra if it helps to get another GTA04 buyer. It has a slight screen related problem which shouldn't cause too much grief though: it requires a small plastic piece to be in place between screen and case that adds a bit of pressure so that touch works fluently - but it has been working nicely for over a year after I discovered the workaround. you can also of course just order a new screen together with GTA04) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:18:05PM +0100, Neal H. Walfield wrote: Hi, It seems to me that there are two problems. First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I miss it?). Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for this?). I really like this idea. As someone who is using smartphone mostly only to open terminal and connect to home computer I would really prefer something with hw qwerty keyboard (like n900). So for me the biggest disadvantage of GTA02 was it's bigger case with high edge of display (harder to use touchscreen neer the edge) and lack of keyboard. Now I would have to sacrifice old GTA02 for GTA04 so I can get much better hw but still in not so great case (at least for me) and instead of 2 platforms to hack on I will have just 1 again. Would be great to have some plans for new case (I know that qwerty is much more difficult to manufacture and that you're already working on something). And if there is new case, will it use the same LCD from GTA02 (it there enough modules?) or will it use something else? In other words I would advertise GTA04 board more like base of completely new phone not as board upgrade for old one (GTA02). I know you can use GTA04 without LCD and case already, but for people who don't have GTA02 or don't want to sacrifice it yet, it's not an option to keep it that way forever, they want some vision of new phone. If there is LCD which will for sure fit in future case and if there is some promise that there will be new case (maybe even with qwerty kbd) I think that more people will buy board+LCD now to start playing with it and then complete their new phone with case after maybe 6 months, while still keeping their GTA02. Regards, -- Martin 'JaMa' Jansa jabber: martin.ja...@gmail.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
I just got an idea. Maybe it is not very good, but I will mention it anyway. Imagine if the GTA04 board could be available for different cases, so that people owning a HTC could free their devices Maybe this is not feasible, but could increase the marked if done right. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi Martin, Am 30.12.2011 um 20:01 schrieb Martin Jansa: On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:18:05PM +0100, Neal H. Walfield wrote: Hi, It seems to me that there are two problems. First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I miss it?). Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for this?). I really like this idea. As someone who is using smartphone mostly only to open terminal and connect to home computer I would really prefer something with hw qwerty keyboard (like n900). So for me the biggest disadvantage of GTA02 was it's bigger case with high edge of display (harder to use touchscreen neer the edge) and lack of keyboard. Now I would have to sacrifice old GTA02 for GTA04 so I can get much better hw but still in not so great case (at least for me) and instead of 2 platforms to hack on I will have just 1 again. If you ever have tried to hack on a GTA04 you will love it as your single platform :) Would be great to have some plans for new case (I know that qwerty is much more difficult to manufacture and that you're already working on something). And if there is new case, will it use the same LCD from Well, there are external bluetooth keyboards for 39 EUR of approx. the same size as the GTA... This makes it quite impossible to develop a keyboard at comparable price. GTA02 (it there enough modules?) or will it use something else? Yes, the idea is to make a replacement case around the existing display and PCB. In other words I would advertise GTA04 board more like base of completely new phone not as board upgrade for old one (GTA02). That is not the idea behind the GTA04. It is designed as a motherboard upgrade and if we want to completely design a new phone it would be quite different. We simply have quite complex technical limitations. I know you can use GTA04 without LCD and case already, but for people who don't have GTA02 or don't want to sacrifice it yet, it's not an option to keep it that way forever, they want some vision of new phone. Currently we can't give that because we don't see how we can make a completely new device cheaper than one that reuses some parts. If there is LCD which will for sure fit in future case and if there is some promise that there will be new case (maybe even with qwerty kbd) I think that more people will buy board+LCD now to start playing with it and then complete their new phone with case after maybe 6 months, while still keeping their GTA02. That is what I don't understand - why would someone want to keep the GTA02 in operation... Either the GTA04 is so good that you don't need the GTA02 any more or you would not need a new GTA04 :) Well, we don't have enough devices out there to prove it, so I can understand that one hesitates to believe it. This is why we plan to demonstrate the GTA04 at FOSDEM (if we get a stand). Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 10:02:44PM +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi Martin, Hi Nikolaus, Am 30.12.2011 um 20:01 schrieb Martin Jansa: On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:18:05PM +0100, Neal H. Walfield wrote: Hi, It seems to me that there are two problems. First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I miss it?). Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for this?). I really like this idea. As someone who is using smartphone mostly only to open terminal and connect to home computer I would really prefer something with hw qwerty keyboard (like n900). So for me the biggest disadvantage of GTA02 was it's bigger case with high edge of display (harder to use touchscreen neer the edge) and lack of keyboard. Now I would have to sacrifice old GTA02 for GTA04 so I can get much better hw but still in not so great case (at least for me) and instead of 2 platforms to hack on I will have just 1 again. If you ever have tried to hack on a GTA04 you will love it as your single platform :) I hope I will, but old GTA02 board still has some value, similar my old Sharp Spitz which is still running and used from time to time. Would be great to have some plans for new case (I know that qwerty is much more difficult to manufacture and that you're already working on something). And if there is new case, will it use the same LCD from Well, there are external bluetooth keyboards for 39 EUR of approx. the same size as the GTA... This makes it quite impossible to develop a keyboard at comparable price. Yes I have one of these, but try to use it in a train for longer time, usually you have to hold keyboard with both hands to type with thumbs and then phone screen is too far in your lap or you try to hold phone closer to eyes while typing one hand with keyboard balancing in your lap - not so good for longer texts with lots of special characters :). GTA02 (it there enough modules?) or will it use something else? Yes, the idea is to make a replacement case around the existing display and PCB. In other words I would advertise GTA04 board more like base of completely new phone not as board upgrade for old one (GTA02). That is not the idea behind the GTA04. It is designed as a motherboard upgrade and if we want to completely design a new phone it would be quite different. We simply have quite complex technical limitations. Being able to reuse as much components from GTA02 is definitely big plus and works great for people who like GTA02 case. I'm just saying that maybe there is a lot of potentional customers which would be even more interested in GTA04 if they can expect to use it in different case later (even if the case is then for another 250e). I know you can use GTA04 without LCD and case already, but for people who don't have GTA02 or don't want to sacrifice it yet, it's not an option to keep it that way forever, they want some vision of new phone. Currently we can't give that because we don't see how we can make a completely new device cheaper than one that reuses some parts. If there is LCD which will for sure fit in future case and if there is some promise that there will be new case (maybe even with qwerty kbd) I think that more people will buy board+LCD now to start playing with it and then complete their new phone with case after maybe 6 months, while still keeping their GTA02. That is what I don't understand - why would someone want to keep the GTA02 in operation... For me it was mostly to keep GTA02 supported by SHR, but as I said before I still keep Spitz in operation even with more powerfull devices available to me e.g. N900 (maybe because of 3 extra rows of keys and all special characters on hw keyboard :)) Either the GTA04 is so good that you don't need the GTA02 any more or you would not need a new GTA04 :) Well, we don't have enough
Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour
Am 29.12.2011 um 13:06 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Hi Ben, Am 29.12.2011 um 12:49 schrieb Ben Thompson: Hi Thank you for creating the GTA04. My problem is the early bird pricing which it seems to me requires some people pay more than others, without any real incentive or added value in the goods received. I don't want to pay 474 euros one Well, the early birds take a higher risk that the group tour does not start at all. If someone waits until 9th of February it is much easier to estimate. Those who subscribe early simply have to wait much longer although they have paid. This is why we developed this early bird rebate at all, to give some benefit to those who really subscribe early and taking more risk. day when you were offering the same item the day before for 449 euros. First you need to find out if my view is held by others, if so my advice would be to write to the current subscribers to the group tour explaining that you made a mistake with the pricing, and ask permission to cancel their orders. Then you could create a new group buy with fair pricing for all which I am guessing would be a price somewhere between 449 and 499 euros. The amount of the rebate we give to the early birds is driven by donations and these are too limited to spread to everyone. The fair price to everyone would be 499 EUR which covers all cost we expect (i.e. we don't have 350*50 EUR = 17500 EUR). I should ass that the 449-499 EUR also include some money set aside for developing future devices. Reducing the price for everyone by that amount wouldn't help for a long-term future. So what do those think who have already ordered? Would you think that cancelling the orders and start a new group buy is an way to go? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi Neal, Am 29.12.2011 um 12:18 schrieb Neal H. Walfield: Hi, It seems to me that there are two problems. First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. I understand. Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I miss it?). Well, we are not enough people in the core team to write and submit articles to all the important magazines. And, we are not good at writing... There have been attempts to do that, but it appears that the magazines are simply ignoring the GTA04 project. In Germany, neither Heise.de nor Golem.de did take the story although they got some tips. There has been some minor coverage, e.g. http://www.google.de/search?tbm=nwsbtnmeta_news_search=1q=openmoko And, I tried to submit a hot tip to http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/s/News/ but their contactus link is severely broken. This is IMHO an area where the community could easily help! Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment While a GTA04 can even work without LCD or case (just bend a staple to hold the battery and power through USB), such a kit with case is of course much better. to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for this?). I have a new idea and have planned to do some first evaluation next week. It may become a real community solution where everyone could become able to order an existing case or even a modified one (source code will be provided). We need of course provide the missing pieces like UMTS/GPS antenna, speakers, vibracall motor. BR, NIkolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour
Sorry for the typo below :) Am 29.12.2011 um 13:14 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com: Am 29.12.2011 um 13:06 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Hi Ben, Am 29.12.2011 um 12:49 schrieb Ben Thompson: Hi Thank you for creating the GTA04. My problem is the early bird pricing which it seems to me requires some people pay more than others, without any real incentive or added value in the goods received. I don't want to pay 474 euros one Well, the early birds take a higher risk that the group tour does not start at all. If someone waits until 9th of February it is much easier to estimate. Those who subscribe early simply have to wait much longer although they have paid. This is why we developed this early bird rebate at all, to give some benefit to those who really subscribe early and taking more risk. day when you were offering the same item the day before for 449 euros. First you need to find out if my view is held by others, if so my advice would be to write to the current subscribers to the group tour explaining that you made a mistake with the pricing, and ask permission to cancel their orders. Then you could create a new group buy with fair pricing for all which I am guessing would be a price somewhere between 449 and 499 euros. The amount of the rebate we give to the early birds is driven by donations and these are too limited to spread to everyone. The fair price to everyone would be 499 EUR which covers all cost we expect (i.e. we don't have 350*50 EUR = 17500 EUR). I should ass that the 449-499 EUR ... add ... also include some money set aside for developing future devices. Reducing the price for everyone by that amount wouldn't help for a long-term future. So what do those think who have already ordered? Would you think that cancelling the orders and start a new group buy is an way to go? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi, I think, you should focus more on present and make GTA04 price available to many members of this small community as you can. GTA04 is much expensive in comparison with other OMAP3 based mobile phones today. I know, cost is based on production volumes, but ordinary hackers likes cheap devices. You should try find balance and make GTA04 successful. The poll you announced yesterday was first move. Development costs and other margins can be gained through some fundraising sites like Kickstarter. Disclaimer: My view is based on dialogs with current or past owners of Neo FreeRunner that I know and my observations. Best Regards, Martix Dne 29.12.2011 13:14, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller napsal(a): Am 29.12.2011 um 13:06 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Hi Ben, Am 29.12.2011 um 12:49 schrieb Ben Thompson: Hi Thank you for creating the GTA04. My problem is the early bird pricing which it seems to me requires some people pay more than others, without any real incentive or added value in the goods received. I don't want to pay 474 euros one Well, the early birds take a higher risk that the group tour does not start at all. If someone waits until 9th of February it is much easier to estimate. Those who subscribe early simply have to wait much longer although they have paid. This is why we developed this early bird rebate at all, to give some benefit to those who really subscribe early and taking more risk. day when you were offering the same item the day before for 449 euros. First you need to find out if my view is held by others, if so my advice would be to write to the current subscribers to the group tour explaining that you made a mistake with the pricing, and ask permission to cancel their orders. Then you could create a new group buy with fair pricing for all which I am guessing would be a price somewhere between 449 and 499 euros. The amount of the rebate we give to the early birds is driven by donations and these are too limited to spread to everyone. The fair price to everyone would be 499 EUR which covers all cost we expect (i.e. we don't have 350*50 EUR = 17500 EUR). I should ass that the 449-499 EUR also include some money set aside for developing future devices. Reducing the price for everyone by that amount wouldn't help for a long-term future. So what do those think who have already ordered? Would you think that cancelling the orders and start a new group buy is an way to go? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour
Just my point of view: I think the price is the problem. To be less brief I'll explain MY situation: I'm a student, I'm very interested in GTA04 because I think it's a tool that can help me in learning how to write code for embedded stuff in an open environment but I don't have a pay or some regular income. Therefore for me GTA04 is a dream :D I read all the previous mails, I have a GTA02 (it was the gift for my bachelor...), so I know why the price is around 450€ ... but for me is really too much. just my small and personal 2 cents d On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Hi all, that status of the GTA04 mass market group tour http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%20Group%20Tour is that we have: * passed half time yesterday * first early bird batch is sold out * but still only 16% preorders (56 units) * we have approx. 6 weeks left to fill the remaining gap of 84 % So I would say that we are still far away from becoming successful. If I read that over 2 Million new Android units have been activated over the Christmas holidays [1] and 4 Million iOS devices just on Christmas day [2], I can't believe that we do not find 350 potential buyers in 60 days... Well, we don't have a real mass market device and I think we should not even pretend to have one, in this phase. Because we are then compared to the 100 EUR Huawei Android/UMTS units where one has to suspect that the workers in China are being ripped off... What do you think should we do to make this group tour a success? * extend the subscription timeframe until we reach 100%? * ask for/collect donations to extend the early bird rebates? Some sort of sponsorship by community members for community members who can't afford a new GTA04 immediately? * have more resellers or buying groups to order batches of 10 units? * talk more about the benefits and special features one can only find in a GTA04 and nowhere else? * subsidize GTA04 boards by combining them with a UMTS contract? * offer to pay only part of the price by end of the subscription time frame so that we can already buy the expensive and difficult to source components, but postpone production individually until the remaining payments arrive? (i.e. pay 200 EUR until 10th Feb and the remainder until May) More ideas are welcome! But please keep in mind that we can't develop something completely new until February and components cost what they cost... The simpler the idea the better! And, there may be ideas which are too big for a single community member, but may become feasible if we all work together, contributing many small pieces. Curious about your ideas, Nikolaus [1]: http://www.giga.de/macnews/newsticker/ios-gegen-android-42-millionen-ios-26-millionen-android-aktivierungen-am-weihnachtstag-256890 [2]: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/27/holiday-gifts-drive-new-ios-device-activations-sharply-higher/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi Ben, Am 29.12.2011 um 12:49 schrieb Ben Thompson: Hi Thank you for creating the GTA04. My problem is the early bird pricing which it seems to me requires some people pay more than others, without any real incentive or added value in the goods received. I don't want to pay 474 euros one Well, the early birds take a higher risk that the group tour does not start at all. If someone waits until 9th of February it is much easier to estimate. Those who subscribe early simply have to wait much longer although they have paid. This is why we developed this early bird rebate at all, to give some benefit to those who really subscribe early and taking more risk. day when you were offering the same item the day before for 449 euros. First you need to find out if my view is held by others, if so my advice would be to write to the current subscribers to the group tour explaining that you made a mistake with the pricing, and ask permission to cancel their orders. Then you could create a new group buy with fair pricing for all which I am guessing would be a price somewhere between 449 and 499 euros. The amount of the rebate we give to the early birds is driven by donations and these are too limited to spread to everyone. The fair price to everyone would be 499 EUR which covers all cost we expect (i.e. we don't have 350*50 EUR = 17500 EUR). So what do those think who have already ordered? Would you think that cancelling the orders and start a new group buy is an way to go? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi, It seems to me that there are two problems. First, if someone orders a GTA04, that person doesn't get all the hardware--that person needs to have a GTA01 or GTA02 and do some non-trivial assembly. I realize that you have some cases that you are selling, which is the route that I went, but I think these are limited and independent of the group tour. If this option hadn't been available, I would not have signed up for a GTA04. Second, I think you are lacking publicity. I haven't seen an article about this on the news sites that I follow, such as lwn.net (did I miss it?). Given these two problems, I'd try to solve the first one before the second one (one only gets so many chances with the media...). I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for this?). Thanks, Neal ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Fwd: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:50 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: snip Well, we don't have a real mass market device and I think we should not even pretend to have one, in this phase. Because we are then compared to the 100 EUR Huawei Android/UMTS units where one has to suspect that the workers in China are being ripped off... I recently bought a used Motorola XT720 on Ebay for $80 CAD. That's a price I can afford. I'm not saying you should drop prices or use bad factories, but I personally need far more time to save up 499 Euros. What do you think should we do to make this group tour a success? * extend the subscription timeframe until we reach 100%? Please! The people who want it earlier will be disappointed, but seeing as how the development model is so different, I'm sure they'll understand (though ask them, which what you're doing I suppose). * ask for/collect donations to extend the early bird rebates? Some sort of sponsorship by community members for community members who can't afford a new GTA04 immediately? I love this idea, but with only 56 units ordered, I'm not going to hold my breath. * have more resellers or buying groups to order batches of 10 units? * talk more about the benefits and special features one can only find in a GTA04 and nowhere else? Always good, but takes work. Someone in reply to a recent Phoronix article suggested marketing them as devices that can be fully encrypted for the politician or activist who needs it most. I hate to say it but people have a real hard-on for Android. Making sure the AoF people have a board to hack on could go a long way and you could reasonably call it an investment. * subsidize GTA04 boards by combining them with a UMTS contract? Possibly but very limited to certain areas, right? Maybe pick the top four geekiest locations to this... What kind of person knows about this sort of thing? * offer to pay only part of the price by end of the subscription time frame so that we can already buy the expensive and difficult to source components, but postpone production individually until the remaining payments arrive? (i.e. pay 200 EUR until 10th Feb and the remainder until May) Big yes! I firmly set my vote for this option above all others. I can afford one eventually, but even May might be too soon for me. More ideas are welcome! But please keep in mind that we can't develop something completely new until February and components cost what they cost... The simpler the idea the better! You spoke about marketing in another post. This is crucial. Geeks should be jumping for a phone that ships Debian + LXDE. I haven't seen one post on Debian User, or the LXDE lists! These guys are the one's who'll be happy to pay a premium. Let's blast all Foss lists that are even mildly relevant, LUGS all have mailing lists, hackspace lists, where-ever makers hang out, and this is just off the top of my head. Let's also ask GTA02 owners (18,000 of them right?), who have one collecting dust to put them up on Ebay or buy a GTA04. Kickstarter or a similar service like others mentioned, is also a good idea. Even if it's just for specific areas, any funding I'm sure will be put to good use. I wish I had known earlier no one was doing marketing. Not that I really have much time myself, but since no one else is stepping up to the plate I'll see what I can conjure up. I'll start a marketing thread in the next few days, please though if someone else wants to take the initiative you have my blessing and thanks! And, there may be ideas which are too big for a single community member, but may become feasible if we all work together, contributing many small pieces. Curious about your ideas, Nikolaus [1]: http://www.giga.de/macnews/newsticker/ios-gegen-android-42-millionen-ios-26-millionen-android-aktivierungen-am-weihnachtstag-256890 [2]: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/27/holiday-gifts-drive-new-ios-device-activations-sharply-higher/ ___ For the record, I have three hurdles: A) The price is too high for me. 499 Euros = 659.692059 Canadian dollars. I pay less in rent. At $400 it's a strertch, but I could maybe pull it off by February/March. It's just a matter of time before I get one, but it won't be soon. B) GSM in my area is very expensive. The only providers that have a fair price where I live are UMTS IV (aka AWS). With the GSM networks, I'm looking at 3 times more than the AWS networks. I have to factor in this cost as well or relegate the GTA04 to a PDA. C) I don't want to risk breaking my beloved FR. Section 4.9 of the manual should highlight my concern. When I get my hands on a GTA04, I'll probably do the switch at my local hack space under the supervision of a hardware geek. FYI, I've had my FR since near launch and it's been sole phone even when #1024 was making me miss calls. To go from an FR to a GTA04 would provide
Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi all, that status of the GTA04 mass market group tour http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%20Group%20Tour is that we have: * passed half time yesterday * first early bird batch is sold out * but still only 16% preorders (56 units) * we have approx. 6 weeks left to fill the remaining gap of 84 % So I would say that we are still far away from becoming successful. If I read that over 2 Million new Android units have been activated over the Christmas holidays [1] and 4 Million iOS devices just on Christmas day [2], I can't believe that we do not find 350 potential buyers in 60 days... Well, we don't have a real mass market device and I think we should not even pretend to have one, in this phase. Because we are then compared to the 100 EUR Huawei Android/UMTS units where one has to suspect that the workers in China are being ripped off... What do you think should we do to make this group tour a success? * extend the subscription timeframe until we reach 100%? * ask for/collect donations to extend the early bird rebates? Some sort of sponsorship by community members for community members who can't afford a new GTA04 immediately? * have more resellers or buying groups to order batches of 10 units? * talk more about the benefits and special features one can only find in a GTA04 and nowhere else? * subsidize GTA04 boards by combining them with a UMTS contract? * offer to pay only part of the price by end of the subscription time frame so that we can already buy the expensive and difficult to source components, but postpone production individually until the remaining payments arrive? (i.e. pay 200 EUR until 10th Feb and the remainder until May) More ideas are welcome! But please keep in mind that we can't develop something completely new until February and components cost what they cost... The simpler the idea the better! And, there may be ideas which are too big for a single community member, but may become feasible if we all work together, contributing many small pieces. Curious about your ideas, Nikolaus [1]: http://www.giga.de/macnews/newsticker/ios-gegen-android-42-millionen-ios-26-millionen-android-aktivierungen-am-weihnachtstag-256890 [2]: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/27/holiday-gifts-drive-new-ios-device-activations-sharply-higher/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Status GTA04 GroupTour
Hi Thank you for creating the GTA04. 29.12.2011, 10:50, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com: Hi all, that status of the GTA04 mass market group tour http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%20Group%20Tour is that we have: * passed half time yesterday * first early bird batch is sold out * but still only 16% preorders (56 units) * we have approx. 6 weeks left to fill the remaining gap of 84 % So I would say that we are still far away from becoming successful. If I read that over 2 Million new Android units have been activated over the Christmas holidays [1] and 4 Million iOS devices just on Christmas day [2], I can't believe that we do not find 350 potential buyers in 60 days... Well, we don't have a real mass market device and I think we should not even pretend to have one, in this phase. Because we are then compared to the 100 EUR Huawei Android/UMTS units where one has to suspect that the workers in China are being ripped off... What do you think should we do to make this group tour a success? * extend the subscription timeframe until we reach 100%? * ask for/collect donations to extend the early bird rebates? Some sort of sponsorship by community members for community members who can't afford a new GTA04 immediately? * have more resellers or buying groups to order batches of 10 units? * talk more about the benefits and special features one can only find in a GTA04 and nowhere else? * subsidize GTA04 boards by combining them with a UMTS contract? * offer to pay only part of the price by end of the subscription time frame so that we can already buy the expensive and difficult to source components, but postpone production individually until the remaining payments arrive? (i.e. pay 200 EUR until 10th Feb and the remainder until May) More ideas are welcome! But please keep in mind that we can't develop something completely new until February and components cost what they cost... The simpler the idea the better! And, there may be ideas which are too big for a single community member, but may become feasible if we all work together, contributing many small pieces. Curious about your ideas, My problem is the early bird pricing which it seems to me requires some people pay more than others, without any real incentive or added value in the goods received. I don't want to pay 474 euros one day when you were offering the same item the day before for 449 euros. First you need to find out if my view is held by others, if so my advice would be to write to the current subscribers to the group tour explaining that you made a mistake with the pricing, and ask permission to cancel their orders. Then you could create a new group buy with fair pricing for all which I am guessing would be a price somewhere between 449 and 499 euros. Ben ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Status GTA04 GroupTour
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 11:50:40 +0100 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Curious about your ideas, If I were thinking about joining the group tour, I'd be waiting for confirmation from the early adopters that the device really worked as a phone. The freerunner was plagued with little hardware bugs which meant various bits didn't quite work perfectly. I wouldn't want to repeat that. Clearly most of the hardware does work and calls can be made but as a potential purchaser I would want to be hearing things like: - I used my gta04 to call my girl friend and she didn't complain about the sound quality. - I can browse the web over UMTS and it is quite usable - I only need to charge the battery every other day. That last one is the biggest hole in our story currently. We have no evidence that we can achieve appropriate power saving. I suspect we can but as yet we cannot demonstrate it. If I were buying I'd wait until it could be demonstrated. Others probably think very differently to me, but that I what I would be thinking. NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
