Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
mobi phil wrote: no offense, but thinkin only about yourself, what you want, is probably the cause nr. one for openmoko company/project failing. If you want a company to sponsor the development of the project, they need to have benefit. They can generate benefit by selling devices. But if you fail to put on the device minimal usability only a small amount of the potential customers will consider buying the device. By providing a bit more usability openmoko would have been able to sell more phones. Lot of IT friends laughed at me when I tried to show them the phone... actually I could show nothing. If I was able to show a bit more... these guys would have probably considered buying the phone etc... If you want to show off, install some apps. For game players: Linball and mokomaze looks good. Tangogps with some maps, and one of the audio players. Set up wifi and surf the web on the 640x480 screen, which really is better than the 320x240 or so found on many other phones. And then stuff that is hard to do on other phones because they don't have linux. ssh into some other machine, for example. Or in a windows-only place, show how you can log onto the file server directly and browse your files. Because the thing is a computer too. Look at images and documents. Developing only for your own satisfaction and thinking zero about giving back as usability helps less than zero! Many developers develop only for their own satisfaction - but happily share the stuff. And this helps, for generally, lots of people wants the same stuff. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:23:14 pm Michal Brzozowski wrote: I think it was pretty reliable too, except the duplicating sms bug. But that's not a big deal I think. That's fixed in QtMoko, which is a great relief! :-) -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC This email may come with a PGP signature as a file. Do not panic. For more info see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
maybe http://wave.google.com/ will solve the problem? http://mobiphil.com On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 7:25 AM, fredrik normann fredrik.normann.j...@gmail.com wrote: so true 2009/6/26 Fabian Schölzel fabian.schoel...@googlemail.com Long long ago, someone wrote : And sometimes, you just dont have to quote, because the discussion hierarchy isnt lost within mailing lists. True. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- being mobile, but including technology http://mobiphil.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
people have different ideas about how to use their devices. regarding netiquette, opinion varies and there is no one solution which fits everyone best. not every wants to use text based clients, nor scroll to the end of a page. regardless of it being near instant or several steps, they are still unnecessary steps. in the end this is, as it always has been, a religious preference that some people attempt to enforce passionately. thankfully the passionate argument of 40 column text has disappeared. On 06/26/09 01:28, Matthias Apitz wrote: I think I'd never use my FR to read and answer the hundreds of mail I receive every day; ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
El día Friday, June 26, 2009 a las 02:09:51AM -0400, David Ford escribió: people have different ideas about how to use their devices. regarding netiquette, opinion varies and there is no one solution which fits everyone best. not every wants to use text based clients, nor scroll to the end of a page. regardless of it being near instant or several steps, they are still unnecessary steps. in the end this is, as it always has been, a religious preference that some people attempt to enforce passionately. thankfully the passionate argument of 40 column text has disappeared. Everything in Internet must have rules, for example, mail is transported by protocols like SMTP and they are ruled in RFC's like RFC822. One of those rules is the netiquette, another is line wrapping around column 68-72 (and not 40) which makes still much sense and has not disappeared; even your text is correcly wrapped, only wrong (top) posted. matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use FreeBSD. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
On Fri, 2009-06-26 at 02:09 -0400, David Ford wrote: people have different ideas about how to use their devices. regarding netiquette, opinion varies and there is no one solution which fits everyone best. not every wants to use text based clients, nor scroll to the end of a page. regardless of it being near instant or several steps, they are still unnecessary steps. in the end this is, as it always has been, a religious preference that some people attempt to enforce passionately. thankfully the passionate argument of 40 column text has disappeared. What do you mean? 40 columns? Way too much for my terminal! I read this from punchcards (extended version) so that I really need your mails to wrap around much less than 40 columns. I hate people are making so many assumptions as to what terminal I'm using to read their mails. So, I agree with your first point. Regards, David PS: This thread alone has made for a nice stack of cards. Still think- ing about ways to use them... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
there is no functional harm to top posting, only that it violates your preference. There is. With top posting, it may be, and often is, hard to understand what patricular part of previous message(s) author is answering to. Because of that: - reading and understanding discussion becomes much harder, - when author formats message such that his reply is just below the text he replies to, he will likely see and re-read it while typing, and really reply to it, not to something else that his oppoinent never wrote. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/26 Nikita V. Youshchenko yo...@debian.org - when author formats message such that his reply is just below the text he replies to, he will likely see and re-read it while typing, and really reply to it, not to something else that his oppoinent never wrote. True, but sometimes you want to make a general remark on the subject of the thread, and then I think it's ok to top post. A worse habit is when someone is bottom posting and quotes the whole email and you have to scroll down to see what he wrote. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
any chance you fight that out somewhere else? the discussions about the prefered posting style (and no, there's no rule!) is as old as the internet -- and both positions still live and kick. that can only mean one thing: for both prefs good reasons exist and no party could ever convince the other one. if you, please, would stop to argue on that mostly religuous level and look to what you (hopefully) want to achieve? do not top post! is as stupid as do not bottom post!, and assumptions what users do, are always subjective -- if i receive a mail with bottom posting, i don not read the entire mail, but scroll to the part not cited (usually marked by different color or missing symbol at line position 0). simply always cut down the mail to tzhe neccissities, do not stupidly type either bottom or top. the realy annoyance is not top or bottom posting, the real annoyance are those stupid mails where simply everything everybody once saidf is included -- and even those fighting for nettiquette do that very often! a good rule _would_ be to imagine, that recipients _are_ reading the mails on their fr -- it easily reminds you to not live for dogms but for common sense. btw: those lengthy mails are annoying not only on the fr but even on my netbook with about 600px screen height! and that is use rather often to check mails. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
FINALLY :) Thumbs up! arne anka ha scritto: any chance you fight that out somewhere else? the discussions about the prefered posting style (and no, there's no rule!) is as old as the internet -- and both positions still live and kick. that can only mean one thing: for both prefs good reasons exist and no party could ever convince the other one. if you, please, would stop to argue on that mostly religuous level and look to what you (hopefully) want to achieve? do not top post! is as stupid as do not bottom post!, and assumptions what users do, are always subjective -- if i receive a mail with bottom posting, i don not read the entire mail, but scroll to the part not cited (usually marked by different color or missing symbol at line position 0). simply always cut down the mail to tzhe neccissities, do not stupidly type either bottom or top. the realy annoyance is not top or bottom posting, the real annoyance are those stupid mails where simply everything everybody once saidf is included -- and even those fighting for nettiquette do that very often! a good rule _would_ be to imagine, that recipients _are_ reading the mails on their fr -- it easily reminds you to not live for dogms but for common sense. btw: those lengthy mails are annoying not only on the fr but even on my netbook with about 600px screen height! and that is use rather often to check mails. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community FINALLY :) Thumbs up! (To not hurt anyone :P ) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
LOL On Fri, 2009-06-26 at 12:32 +0200, DJDAS wrote: FINALLY :) Thumbs up! BWL snip FINALLY :) Thumbs up! (To not hurt anyone :P ) ROTFL David ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Long long ago, someone wrote : And sometimes, you just dont have to quote, because the discussion hierarchy isnt lost within mailing lists. True. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
so true 2009/6/26 Fabian Schölzel fabian.schoel...@googlemail.com Long long ago, someone wrote : And sometimes, you just dont have to quote, because the discussion hierarchy isnt lost within mailing lists. True. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/25 Laura Vance van...@thespazcat.com The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language (Python). This alone contributes to the slowness of the device. Heck, the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows python /usr/bin/frameworkd). The FSO website suggests that they are (or were) planning to port it to C or Vala at some point. But who knows if and when that will happen. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
El Thursday, 25 de June de 2009 08:47:04 Michal Brzozowski va escriure: 2009/6/25 Laura Vance van...@thespazcat.com The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language (Python). This alone contributes to the slowness of the device. Heck, the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows python /usr/bin/frameworkd). The FSO website suggests that they are (or were) planning to port it to C or Vala at some point. But who knows if and when that will happen. The vala port seems active on: http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=cornucopia.git;a=summary ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Talking about the memory usage of C++: On Wed, 2009-06-24 at 22:30 +0200, Michal Brzozowski wrote: Hmm, that is one very aspect of C++ I wasn't aware of. But it won't use more than, lets just mention some random language that's currently making up most of FSO / Paroli (thus Om2009), python. I'm very fond of python BTW, but I don't think efficiently using memory resources is one of its strengths, but you can prove me wrong any time, ;-) David ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
On Wed, 2009-06-24 at 17:32 -0600, Laura Vance wrote: Interpreted languages are excellent for rapid prototyping and initial development, but once it's ready for any type of release, it should be ported to C (in this case) or C++. From the FSO website (http://www.freesmartphone.org/index.php/Cornucopia): Always remember: The python implementation is the chance for getting the API right; the vala implementation is the chance of getting the right API fast. ... which is basically what you are saying. David ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Am Mittwoch, den 24.06.2009, 22:32 +0200 schrieb mobi phil: By the way... did anybody reverse engineer' a bit the iphone ?or Android?(not necessarily only the code, but gui patterns I think paying a little attention to their way of doing things maybe will inspire a bit. Both Android and the MacOS have understood the value of abstractions and frameworks especially given the constant rising of the complexity in the problem domain. There's little chance in the future you can continue keeping the same level of abstractions in the solution domain. That said, this is exactly the reason why I have decided to go with Vala for FSO 2.0 -- it combines a high abstraction level with the raw performance of C. Can't get much better ;) Cheers, :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/25 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer mic...@vanille-media.de That said, this is exactly the reason why I have decided to go with Vala for FSO 2.0 -- it combines a high abstraction level with the raw performance of C. Is there any rough schedule for releasing FSO 2.0? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
I agree that C++ compiler produces larger footprint. This is due to the more complex abstraction, expanded templates etc. Normally memory density doubles each year and prices halfs. For implementing the same abstraction, you would create probably the same size of exectable both in C and C++, and probably you would not use more than 20% more memory. What about productivity? I am sure that implementing a correct memory management strategy: smart pointers, object managers ( they add a bit to the overhead, but with increasing memory, does it matter?), it would be probably possible to avoid the annoying transition from prototype phase in pyothon to C phase (or other similar). By the way, did anybody measure/compare (with real data, not based on presumptions and previous experiences) the memory consumption (text, data, dynamic data etc.) of QT and other frameworks applications? On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Laura Vance van...@thespazcat.com wrote: It's not about the programmer managing memory, the C++ compiler produces a MUCH larger memory footprint. I like C++ programming, and I used C for years before that. My first exposure to C++ was when I simply compiled one of my C programs with the C++ switch. An executable file that was about 2k compiled as C became about 140k compiled as C++ ... I didn't modify the code at all. The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language (Python). This alone contributes to the slowness of the device. Heck, the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows python /usr/bin/frameworkd). The core systems need to be compiled. With a past employer, I did most of my development in perl, and I ran into a bottleneck in the interpreter for startup time. I copied the program in C++ and did a load comparison of the two. It was easy to bring the system to its knees with the interpreted language, but I couldn't even get the cpu load to bump more than a tiny bit using the compiled C++. (I write perl using the same structure as my C++, so it's very easy for me to port between the two) This is nothing against python in general, I don't think any interpreted language belongs in a phone except provide the interpreter for the individual owner to write their own code... but interpreted code should not make up the core of the system. Interpreted languages are excellent for rapid prototyping and initial development, but once it's ready for any type of release, it should be ported to C (in this case) or C++. I do use my Freerunner (rev6 that nobody has told me about a buzz... and I've asked them) on a daily basis. I choose not to let my phone go on standby, because I had heard about some of the problems with my current release, but I'm willing to charge it frequently since I am choosing to not let it standby. At some point, I'd like to get into the SMS code and make it do a few things: - Show the contact rather than the phone number - Show the actual time the message was received. (currently all messages are 1-1-1970) - Link the SMS message to a voicemail icon (my provider sends a message from -@ when I have voicemail and ascii triangle@ when all voicemail has been heard). But that's when I have the time. :) -Laura mobi phil wrote: memory?... this remembers me about women... you can give the same amount of money to a blond, black, brunette, blue eyes etc. women... all of them they will spend it the same nanosecond... give the same money to a good businessman He will use it carefully... the programming language does not make too much difference neither. Give the same memory to an unconscious programmer he will waste it the same, just in few lines of code whatever C or C++ or C-- his is programming. Only issue could be memory fragmentation, that with a little care could be avoided in C++ as well. Average C++ programmers have no idea how to save memory. But C++ at least helps you a bit more to think in patterns, to keep much more order with less effort. I think if one keeps for the backend all the legacy (not pejorative ) C code, but coding against a simple widgetset for the GUI in C++ is not a bad idea. Creating a C wrapper, was not really a joke, for only C programmers... I am not saying that C++ is better for the embedded devices, far from that. Just that Qt has a much better abstraction than other toolkits, and is easier to use than few other toolkits. And besides that produces much better user experience. And it is portable. Encourage programmers to create GUI with QT, in few days there will be somebody who will port that to windows CE as there is QT toolkit for CE as well. Then maybe wince programmers would also think about programming against some more generic toolkit etc. By the way... did anybody reverse engineer' a bit the iphone ?or Android?(not necessarily only the code, but gui
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Am Mittwoch, den 24.06.2009, 17:32 -0600 schrieb Laura Vance: The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language (Python). It becomes less of an absurdity when you know the history. The core systems need to be compiled. I agree. :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Am Donnerstag, den 25.06.2009, 08:47 +0200 schrieb Michal Brzozowski: 2009/6/25 Laura Vance van...@thespazcat.com The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language (Python). This alone contributes to the slowness of the device. Heck, the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows python /usr/bin/frameworkd). The FSO website suggests that they are (or were) planning to port it to C or Vala at some point. This is already underway. fsousaged is done, fsodeviced will be finished during LinuxTag. But who knows if and when that will happen. Me :) :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Am Donnerstag, den 25.06.2009, 11:57 +0200 schrieb Michal Brzozowski: 2009/6/25 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer mic...@vanille-media.de That said, this is exactly the reason why I have decided to go with Vala for FSO 2.0 -- it combines a high abstraction level with the raw performance of C. Is there any rough schedule for releasing FSO 2.0? The good thing is that we don't have to wait for a release of the whole thing. As 2.0 subsystems will individually be finished released, we can substitute the Python counterparts with the Vala ones. The bad thing is that it is a huge task and we no longer are funded by Openmoko. Still, as you can see in the Cornucopia git tree, I'm devoting quite some time. The good thing again is we are in the process of founding a BGB company in Germany, hence are soon contractable as a team -- we really would love to continue working on it more than just in our spare time. Cheers, :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/25 mobi phil m...@mobiphil.com I agree that C++ compiler produces larger footprint. This is due to the more complex abstraction, expanded templates etc. Normally memory density doubles each year and prices halfs. But the Freerunner has 128mb of RAM, and I don't see it doubling every year :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
How long do you think people will carry arround the freerunner in their pockets, when next year the same time you will be able to buy a crap :) nvidia tegra based device with 500MB memory for 200$ ? Plan for the future, not for the past :) On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fmwrote: 2009/6/25 mobi phil m...@mobiphil.com I agree that C++ compiler produces larger footprint. This is due to the more complex abstraction, expanded templates etc. Normally memory density doubles each year and prices halfs. But the Freerunner has 128mb of RAM, and I don't see it doubling every year :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- being mobile, but including technology http://mobiphil.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
I don't want to buy Tegra based device or any other propertiary stuff. I want to work on my Neo FreeRunner long. And I'm developing mostly for myself (satisfaction, learning, and usable phone :P) On 6/25/09, mobi phil m...@mobiphil.com wrote: How long do you think people will carry arround the freerunner in their pockets, when next year the same time you will be able to buy a crap :) nvidia tegra based device with 500MB memory for 200$ ? Plan for the future, not for the past :) On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fmwrote: 2009/6/25 mobi phil m...@mobiphil.com I agree that C++ compiler produces larger footprint. This is due to the more complex abstraction, expanded templates etc. Normally memory density doubles each year and prices halfs. But the Freerunner has 128mb of RAM, and I don't see it doubling every year :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- being mobile, but including technology http://mobiphil.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak pisze: And I'm developing mostly for myself (satisfaction, learning, and usable phone :P) For me too! :) -- jahckal smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
no offense, but thinkin only about yourself, what you want, is probably the cause nr. one for openmoko company/project failing. If you want a company to sponsor the development of the project, they need to have benefit. They can generate benefit by selling devices. But if you fail to put on the device minimal usability only a small amount of the potential customers will consider buying the device. By providing a bit more usability openmoko would have been able to sell more phones. Lot of IT friends laughed at me when I tried to show them the phone... actually I could show nothing. If I was able to show a bit more... these guys would have probably considered buying the phone etc... Developing only for your own satisfaction and thinking zero about giving back as usability helps less than zero! On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Marcin Ćwikła jahc...@gmail.com wrote: Sebastian Krzyszkowiak pisze: And I'm developing mostly for myself (satisfaction, learning, and usable phone :P) For me too! :) -- jahckal ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- being mobile, but including technology http://mobiphil.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
El día Thursday, June 25, 2009 a las 01:50:19PM +0200, mobi phil escribió: no offense, but thinkin only about yourself, what you want, is probably the cause nr. one for openmoko company/project failing. If you want a company to sponsor the development of the project, they need to have benefit. They can generate benefit by selling devices. But if you fail to put on the device minimal usability only a small amount of the potential customers will consider buying the device. By providing a bit more usability openmoko would have been able to sell more phones. Lot of IT friends laughed at me when I tried to show them the phone... actually I could show nothing. If I was able to show a bit more... these guys would have probably considered buying the phone etc... Developing only for your own satisfaction and thinking zero about giving back as usability helps less than zero! I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I think that the full thread is less than zero usefull; matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use FreeBSD. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
I am affraid that even if you would do your best you would not be able to reason what is usefull for all the people who subscribed for the list. It is usefull for at least two people: the person who started the thread and me :). On the other side it is inpolite to reason in name of others. So the conclusion is your last post is zero at power of infinet usefull :) On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: El día Thursday, June 25, 2009 a las 01:50:19PM +0200, mobi phil escribió: no offense, but thinkin only about yourself, what you want, is probably the cause nr. one for openmoko company/project failing. If you want a company to sponsor the development of the project, they need to have benefit. They can generate benefit by selling devices. But if you fail to put on the device minimal usability only a small amount of the potential customers will consider buying the device. By providing a bit more usability openmoko would have been able to sell more phones. Lot of IT friends laughed at me when I tried to show them the phone... actually I could show nothing. If I was able to show a bit more... these guys would have probably considered buying the phone etc... Developing only for your own satisfaction and thinking zero about giving back as usability helps less than zero! I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I think that the full thread is less than zero usefull; matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use FreeBSD. -- being mobile, but including technology http://mobiphil.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/25 mobi phil m...@mobiphil.com How long do you think people will carry arround the freerunner in their pockets, when next year the same time you will be able to buy a crap :) nvidia tegra based device with 500MB memory for 200$ ? Plan for the future, not for the past :) Nvidia writes software for nvidia tegra, and I'm writing software for Freerunner. And I don't see another Freerunner coming next year with double the memory. And I hope that the FSO team doesn't follow your reasoning, otherwise the next stable release would be for GTA03. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
On Thursday 25 June 2009 13:25:39 mobi phil wrote: I am affraid that even if you would do your best you would not be able to reason what is usefull for all the people who subscribed for the list. It is usefull for at least two people: the person who started the thread and me :). On the other side it is inpolite to reason in name of others. So the conclusion is your last post is zero at power of infinet usefull :) For f*ck sake people this isn't a school playground stop with the childish bickering. That last line isn't clever or even funny. solar.george signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
El día Thursday, June 25, 2009 a las 02:25:39PM +0200, mobi phil escribió: I am affraid that even if you would do your best you would not be able to reason what is usefull for all the people who subscribed for the list. It is usefull for at least two people: the person who started the thread and me :). On the other side it is inpolite to reason in name of others. I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I think that the full thread is less than zero usefull; First, you should read the netiquette and understand that top posting violates it. Second, as you could read above I said «I think» and never was inpolite to reason in name of others. matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use FreeBSD. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
mind you, while i've enjoyed the convenience of learning and writing my sms app in python/pygtk, when i'm done learning it'll definitely be redone in C. i'm also interested in seeing what vala has to offer and the contrast of it with C. -david On 06/25/09 05:15, David Fokkema wrote: But it won't use more than, lets just mention some random language that's currently making up most of FSO / Paroli (thus Om2009), python. I'm very fond of python BTW, but I don't think efficiently using memory resources is one of its strengths, but you can prove me wrong any time, ;-) David ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
actually - and i'm not picking on you, it really bugs me that developers think oh, i don't need to trim this down and it's ok to suck up more resources because next year ram will be cheaper that's the reason why we have desktops that still bog down with half a dozen programs running even though we now have orders of magnitude more resources. imagine what our desktops could actually do if we didn't have 183 levels of abstraction, 52 different sound ways to do sound, themes and rendering, etc, etc. just imagine having a browser that could actually scroll smoothly with multimedia objects, without requiring a quad xeon system and 8gigs of ram. please don't buy into the wasteful use of resources as planning for the future. it's bothersome to go through accessories like a pair of shoes. that's one of the things that makes linux (*nix) so much better is that it can still run on old hardware. i nearly miss most of my calls on my phone even when it's sitting right here next to me because it takes so long for the phone user interface software to respond to me and tell the gsm modem to answer the call. that's entirely silly. i answer it and i can leave it sitting on the desk for another 7-15 seconds while it keeps on ringing before i pick it up and can talk. every other cellphone i've ever had, had a nearly instant transition from ring to talk when i answered it. :-/ On 06/25/09 06:26, mobi phil wrote: How long do you think people will carry arround the freerunner in their pockets, when next year the same time you will be able to buy a crap :) nvidia tegra based device with 500MB memory for 200$ ? Plan for the future, not for the past :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
have you ever tried reading an ever growing message thread on your FR? scrolling isn't easy, nor is it fast. -d On 06/25/09 08:14, Matthias Apitz wrote: I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I think that the full thread is less than zero usefull; matthias ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Good point! Additionally, I would prefer mailman (or whatever program does it) not appending the ml signature to *every* mail but only to the ones which don't have it at the bottom anymore. I always need to remove multiple (3 or more) instances of that sig everytime I do netiquette-compliant top- quoting. Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 20:47:34 schrieb David Ford: have you ever tried reading an ever growing message thread on your FR? scrolling isn't easy, nor is it fast. -d On 06/25/09 08:14, Matthias Apitz wrote: I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I think that the full thread is less than zero usefull; matthias ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 8:35 PM, David Fordda...@blue-labs.org wrote: i answer it and i can leave it sitting on the desk for another 7-15 seconds while it keeps on ringing before i pick it up and can talk. You should definietly try out om2009. It takes about 2 sec delay when ringing, and the delay between picking up and be able to talk takes about 2 sec too. It is managable, and I never loosed calls because of the delay. (although it was the case with other distribution in the past). And om2009 dont even use the vala implementation (yet) of frameworkd. So things are going definietly great. Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/25 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer mic...@vanille-media.de Am Mittwoch, den 24.06.2009, 17:32 -0600 schrieb Laura Vance: The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language (Python). It becomes less of an absurdity when you know the history. The core systems need to be compiled. I agree. I had a look at qt extended sources. It seems that there's middleware for OM out there that's stable and fast, written in C++. It's also portable to a a dozen other devices. What are the reasons why were not using it on Om2009? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
-[ Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 02:47:34PM -0400, David Ford ] have you ever tried reading an ever growing message thread on your FR? scrolling isn't easy, nor is it fast. Another part of the netiquette handle this : if the requotes are not usefull then delete them. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
-[ Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 02:35:10PM -0400, David Ford ] every other cellphone i've ever had, had a nearly instant transition from ring to talk when i answered it. Certainly because they use hardware from the future. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
El día Thursday, June 25, 2009 a las 02:47:34PM -0400, David Ford escribió: have you ever tried reading an ever growing message thread on your FR? scrolling isn't easy, nor is it fast. I think I'd never use my FR to read and answer the hundreds of mail I receive every day; in general: Use a MUA which does not scroll, but page (like mutt+vi) and in which you can easily jump to the place you want to read or delete some hundred of lines of nonsense in a thread just by typing .,$d matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use FreeBSD. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Hey!! Is this kind of phrase i am not interested in c++. driving the linux phone development? I can never understand how is it possible to have such a huge gap on the scale between C programmers and C++ programmers? Why are C++ programmers dying out? Is it because some C programmers never managed to get the point with C++ and those who did, switched automatically to Java? I propose a C wrapper arround Qt, for the C programmers, and everybody will still benefit, beleive me. QT is a treasure, is a nice clean code! And it is fast! By the way... nvidia tegra, the new dancer on the stage says no linux on tegra http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/06/nvidia-says-no-to-linux-on-tegra-netbooks-chooses-wince.ars or http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=nvidia+tegra+linux mobiphil mobiphil.com On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Al Johnson openm...@mazikeen.demon.co.ukwrote: On Monday 22 June 2009, mobi phil wrote: I think carrying Xwindows is the biggest mistake. I personally encourage QT or new start with gtk on top of www.directfb.org/, so that gtk based interfaces can be reused... By the way did anybody consider gtk with directfb as direction? Or I am wrong and the bottleneck is not really Xwindows? This has been discussed _many_ times before. Those with extensive experience in this area have said X is not the bottleneck. I've just dug out a few of Raster's comments: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-April/046056.html http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-November/035825.html http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2008-February/001924.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- being mobile, but including technology http://mobiphil.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
do you understand the weight involved with using c++? without very very careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices. granted, having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices but it's still onerous. C is much more lightweight and very functional. any benefits of c++ usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices. -d On 06/24/09 07:09, mobi phil wrote: Hey!! Is this kind of phrase i am not interested in c++. driving the linux phone development? I can never understand how is it possible to have such a huge gap on the scale between C programmers and C++ programmers? Why are C++ programmers dying out? Is it because some C programmers never managed to get the point with C++ and those who did, switched automatically to Java? I propose a C wrapper arround Qt, for the C programmers, and everybody will still benefit, beleive me. QT is a treasure, is a nice clean code! And it is fast! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/24 David Ford da...@blue-labs.org do you understand the weight involved with using c++? without very very careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices. granted, having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices but it's still onerous. C is much more lightweight and very functional. any benefits of c++ usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices. What drawbacks do you mean? That is uses more memory? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
that is one typical aspect. Michal Brzozowski wrote: 2009/6/24 David Ford da...@blue-labs.org mailto:da...@blue-labs.org do you understand the weight involved with using c++? without very very careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices. granted, having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices but it's still onerous. C is much more lightweight and very functional. any benefits of c++ usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices. What drawbacks do you mean? That is uses more memory? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Hmm, that is one very aspect of C++ I wasn't aware of. 2009/6/24 David Ford da...@blue-labs.org that is one typical aspect. Michal Brzozowski wrote: 2009/6/24 David Ford da...@blue-labs.org mailto:da...@blue-labs.org do you understand the weight involved with using c++? without very very careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices. granted, having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices but it's still onerous. C is much more lightweight and very functional. any benefits of c++ usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices. What drawbacks do you mean? That is uses more memory? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
memory?... this remembers me about women... you can give the same amount of money to a blond, black, brunette, blue eyes etc. women... all of them they will spend it the same nanosecond... give the same money to a good businessman He will use it carefully... the programming language does not make too much difference neither. Give the same memory to an unconscious programmer he will waste it the same, just in few lines of code whatever C or C++ or C-- his is programming. Only issue could be memory fragmentation, that with a little care could be avoided in C++ as well. Average C++ programmers have no idea how to save memory. But C++ at least helps you a bit more to think in patterns, to keep much more order with less effort. I think if one keeps for the backend all the legacy (not pejorative ) C code, but coding against a simple widgetset for the GUI in C++ is not a bad idea. Creating a C wrapper, was not really a joke, for only C programmers... I am not saying that C++ is better for the embedded devices, far from that. Just that Qt has a much better abstraction than other toolkits, and is easier to use than few other toolkits. And besides that produces much better user experience. And it is portable. Encourage programmers to create GUI with QT, in few days there will be somebody who will port that to windows CE as there is QT toolkit for CE as well. Then maybe wince programmers would also think about programming against some more generic toolkit etc. By the way... did anybody reverse engineer' a bit the iphone ?or Android?(not necessarily only the code, but gui patterns I think paying a little attention to their way of doing things maybe will inspire a bit. would not like to offend... just some random ideas... mobip...@mobiphil.com On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:08 PM, David Ford da...@blue-labs.org wrote: do you understand the weight involved with using c++? without very very careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices. granted, having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices but it's still onerous. C is much more lightweight and very functional. any benefits of c++ usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices. -d On 06/24/09 07:09, mobi phil wrote: Hey!! Is this kind of phrase i am not interested in c++. driving the linux phone development? I can never understand how is it possible to have such a huge gap on the scale between C programmers and C++ programmers? Why are C++ programmers dying out? Is it because some C programmers never managed to get the point with C++ and those who did, switched automatically to Java? I propose a C wrapper arround Qt, for the C programmers, and everybody will still benefit, beleive me. QT is a treasure, is a nice clean code! And it is fast! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- being mobile, but including technology http://mobiphil.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
It's not about the programmer managing memory, the C++ compiler produces a MUCH larger memory footprint. I like C++ programming, and I used C for years before that. My first exposure to C++ was when I simply compiled one of my C programs with the C++ switch. An executable file that was about 2k compiled as C became about 140k compiled as C++ ... I didn't modify the code at all. The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language (Python). This alone contributes to the slowness of the device. Heck, the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows python /usr/bin/frameworkd). The core systems need to be compiled. With a past employer, I did most of my development in perl, and I ran into a bottleneck in the interpreter for startup time. I copied the program in C++ and did a load comparison of the two. It was easy to bring the system to its knees with the interpreted language, but I couldn't even get the cpu load to bump more than a tiny bit using the compiled C++. (I write perl using the same structure as my C++, so it's very easy for me to port between the two) This is nothing against python in general, I don't think any interpreted language belongs in a phone except provide the interpreter for the individual owner to write their own code... but interpreted code should not make up the core of the system. Interpreted languages are excellent for rapid prototyping and initial development, but once it's ready for any type of release, it should be ported to C (in this case) or C++. I do use my Freerunner (rev6 that nobody has told me about a buzz... and I've asked them) on a daily basis. I choose not to let my phone go on standby, because I had heard about some of the problems with my current release, but I'm willing to charge it frequently since I am choosing to not let it standby. At some point, I'd like to get into the SMS code and make it do a few things: - Show the contact rather than the phone number - Show the actual time the message was received. (currently all messages are 1-1-1970) - Link the SMS message to a voicemail icon (my provider sends a message from -@ when I have voicemail and ascii triangle@ when all voicemail has been heard). But that's when I have the time. :) -Laura mobi phil wrote: memory?... this remembers me about women... you can give the same amount of money to a blond, black, brunette, blue eyes etc. women... all of them they will spend it the same nanosecond... give the same money to a good businessman He will use it carefully... the programming language does not make too much difference neither. Give the same memory to an unconscious programmer he will waste it the same, just in few lines of code whatever C or C++ or C-- his is programming. Only issue could be memory fragmentation, that with a little care could be avoided in C++ as well. Average C++ programmers have no idea how to save memory. But C++ at least helps you a bit more to think in patterns, to keep much more order with less effort. I think if one keeps for the backend all the legacy (not pejorative ) C code, but coding against a simple widgetset for the GUI in C++ is not a bad idea. Creating a C wrapper, was not really a joke, for only C programmers... I am not saying that C++ is better for the embedded devices, far from that. Just that Qt has a much better abstraction than other toolkits, and is easier to use than few other toolkits. And besides that produces much better user experience. And it is portable. Encourage programmers to create GUI with QT, in few days there will be somebody who will port that to windows CE as there is QT toolkit for CE as well. Then maybe wince programmers would also think about programming against some more generic toolkit etc. By the way... did anybody reverse engineer' a bit the iphone ?or Android?(not necessarily only the code, but gui patterns I think paying a little attention to their way of doing things maybe will inspire a bit. would not like to offend... just some random ideas... mobip...@mobiphil.com mailto:mobip...@mobiphil.com On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:08 PM, David Ford da...@blue-labs.org mailto:da...@blue-labs.org wrote: do you understand the weight involved with using c++? without very very careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices. granted, having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices but it's still onerous. C is much more lightweight and very functional. any benefits of c++ usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices. -d On 06/24/09 07:09, mobi phil wrote: Hey!! Is this kind of phrase i am not interested in c++. driving the linux phone development? I can never understand how is it possible to have such a huge gap on the scale between C
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
I've had my Freerunner since day 1 and sadly have to agree with almost everything Joerg has said. The surprising thing to me is that we haven't seen more significant improvement on the software side in the last year. I'm not saying things haven't improved, I've just had the following in the back of my mind this whole time: I can buy a $20 pay-as-you go phone that has reliable SMS and voice calls, audible call volume, decent battery life, a fast boot process, reliable input method, a working calendar, and a few silly games. This made me believe that the software side of things was relatively easy. (If that cheapo phone can do it, the Freerunner developers will have these kinks worked out in no time I thought.) Maybe, as Joerg acknowledges too, all these little things ARE working on some distro or other or can be fixed by someone willing to tweak it for three months but in all this time I haven't been able to just flash the thing and get everything to work as reliably as my $20 junk phone. This has surprised me. I keep hoping that Koolu is going to release a version of Android that accomplishes this, but that seems at least a few more weeks (months?) off as well. Every couple of weeks I take the time to install what appears to be the best distro and fiddle with it for a day or so before being confounded by an array of things that still don't work. Then I set it aside and wait another couple of weeks and repeat. I couldn't advise even very experienced GNU/Linux users like our original poster who want the FR to replace a capable smartphone to try it right now. As I see it, only two results are possible: he'll give up disappointed or he'll spend way too much time (3 months) trying to tweak the FR to do that list of things he wants it to do and ultimately succeed, but will have spent 3 months without a usable daily phone. If those of us who feel like this are missing a great FR experience that the rest of you daily users are having, then perhaps the wiki needs a new section Daily Users where each person who is completely satisfied with their FR setup can describe in excruciating detail (command by command) how they got to that point so that the rest of us could cut-and-paste their HOWTO and have the same experiences. Without something like that, I don't expect to be a daily user any time soon. Brian Joerg Lippmann wrote: Am Montag 22 Juni 2009 schrieb Ben Wong: I want to thank Joerg for taking the time to give a clear list of reasons why a person might consider the Freerunner unsuitable as a phone. I think it'd be helpful if these and other points were put on the wiki so that potential buyers can see the arguments against the Freerunner, and what the community response is. (E.g., Solved? Kludged? In progress? Unfixable?) Good starting point! I'd like to thank everyone who answered my disgruntled mail in a constructive manner. You all made a good case for the freerunner/openmoko and I appreciate that. I think I see clearer, why I'm so unhappy with it now and maybe that's the case for other people, too. I think, most of the technical answers totally missed my point. The guy wanted a smartphone. He didn't ask for an exiting piece of hardware experimentation lab and developer paradise. If you recommend to tweak this mixer-setting and install that tool and use that kernel-fix, then you prove, that it's not for him. I listed a lot of points, where I got stuck or where I got frustrated with the Freerunner to show, where he might get stuck, too. Granted, most of my points may be solved in distro A or fixed in Kernel B, or fixable by tweaking settings in illume. but the point is, that there is (to my knowledge) not a single distro out there, that works perfectly out of the box and has all the fixes already installed. Thats whats needed, if you want to recommened it to the end-user. You are offering me and this guy single proofs-of-concept, and that is great for further development, but thats not a working everyday smartphone. let me cite another mail (from Vasco Nevoa): Yes, it needs A LOT of attention and tweaking for about 3 months until you get it just right for yourself, but after that it's good enough as a phone and GPS, and a pretty good PDA. See my point? Best wishes! j�...@home ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/23 Brian C bria...@ocf.berkeley.edu I can buy a $20 pay-as-you go phone that has reliable SMS and voice calls, audible call volume, decent battery life, a fast boot process, reliable input method, a working calendar, and a few silly games. This made me believe that the software side of things was relatively easy. (If that cheapo phone can do it, the Freerunner developers will have these kinks worked out in no time I thought.) Maybe, as Joerg acknowledges too, all these little things ARE working on some distro or other or can be fixed by someone willing to tweak it for three months but in all this time I haven't been able to just flash the thing and get everything to work as reliably as my $20 junk phone. This has surprised me. When I bought my FR (around november), QtExtended worked as you describe. It had everything that a phone needs. I think it was pretty reliable too, except the duplicating sms bug. But that's not a big deal I think. I didn't use it a lot just because you couldn't hack it as much as Om or SHR. But the wiki said: if you want a reliable phone, and just a phone, use QtExtended. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
On Monday 22 June 2009, mobi phil wrote: I think carrying Xwindows is the biggest mistake. I personally encourage QT or new start with gtk on top of www.directfb.org/, so that gtk based interfaces can be reused... By the way did anybody consider gtk with directfb as direction? Or I am wrong and the bottleneck is not really Xwindows? This has been discussed _many_ times before. Those with extensive experience in this area have said X is not the bottleneck. I've just dug out a few of Raster's comments: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-April/046056.html http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-November/035825.html http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2008-February/001924.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Am Montag 22 Juni 2009 schrieb Ben Wong: I want to thank Joerg for taking the time to give a clear list of reasons why a person might consider the Freerunner unsuitable as a phone. I think it'd be helpful if these and other points were put on the wiki so that potential buyers can see the arguments against the Freerunner, and what the community response is. (E.g., Solved? Kludged? In progress? Unfixable?) Good starting point! I'd like to thank everyone who answered my disgruntled mail in a constructive manner. You all made a good case for the freerunner/openmoko and I appreciate that. I think I see clearer, why I'm so unhappy with it now and maybe that's the case for other people, too. I think, most of the technical answers totally missed my point. The guy wanted a smartphone. He didn't ask for an exiting piece of hardware experimentation lab and developer paradise. If you recommend to tweak this mixer-setting and install that tool and use that kernel-fix, then you prove, that it's not for him. I listed a lot of points, where I got stuck or where I got frustrated with the Freerunner to show, where he might get stuck, too. Granted, most of my points may be solved in distro A or fixed in Kernel B, or fixable by tweaking settings in illume. but the point is, that there is (to my knowledge) not a single distro out there, that works perfectly out of the box and has all the fixes already installed. Thats whats needed, if you want to recommened it to the end-user. You are offering me and this guy single proofs-of-concept, and that is great for further development, but thats not a working everyday smartphone. let me cite another mail (from Vasco Nevoa): Yes, it needs A LOT of attention and tweaking for about 3 months until you get it just right for yourself, but after that it's good enough as a phone and GPS, and a pretty good PDA. See my point? Best wishes! j�...@home ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
that's all quite true. however, allow me to make just one point. this phone is marketed as a developer's phone, and all the websites related to this phone all have (or should have) discussion largely surrounding this. :) On 06/22/09 21:51, Joerg Lippmann wrote: [...] let me cite another mail (from Vasco Nevoa): Yes, it needs A LOT of attention and tweaking for about 3 months until you get it just right for yourself, but after that it's good enough as a phone and GPS, and a pretty good PDA. See my point? Best wishes! j�...@home ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Sure, it's a developer phone, and is marketed as such, but what they don't tell you is what kind of developer. When I got mine 6 months ago, I took that to mean applications, not everything about this needs massive help. I think one of the pitfalls for OM was trying to put everything out at once, instead of systematically selecting and stabilizing a kernel, then get the underlying system working, and finally get the UI and useable applications. Now I haven't tried all the distros out there, but from the chatter I read on the maillists, it seems that each are shooting for that moving target in continuing the all at once approach, and predictably coming up short. Don't get me wrong, I love my Freerunner, and it's my daily/only phone (Hackable:1and SHR). I just wish I could spend more time working on applications than messing around with little fixes, rebooting, and waiting for something reasonably stable to develop for. :) On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:05 PM, David Ford wrote: this phone is marketed as a developer's phone, and all the websites related to this phone all have (or should have) discussion largely surrounding this. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
except for ophonekitd being crashy currently, nearly everything else works decently for me. it's stable enough for me to be developing my SMS app for it. honestly, i only do these fixes for issues about once every two to three weeks. there are bugs that others encounter that i've never seen and there are bugs that i have encountered or deal with, that others never see, or they don't impact them. (current shr-unstable) so, at the moment, it's working pretty good and i'm not spending any time fixing anything that -i- didn't break :) -d On 06/22/09 22:42, Damian Spriggs wrote: Sure, it's a developer phone, and is marketed as such, but what they don't tell you is what kind of developer. When I got mine 6 months ago, I took that to mean applications, not everything about this needs massive help. I think one of the pitfalls for OM was trying to put everything out at once, instead of systematically selecting and stabilizing a kernel, then get the underlying system working, and finally get the UI and useable applications. Now I haven't tried all the distros out there, but from the chatter I read on the maillists, it seems that each are shooting for that moving target in continuing the all at once approach, and predictably coming up short. Don't get me wrong, I love my Freerunner, and it's my daily/only phone (Hackable:1and SHR). I just wish I could spend more time working on applications than messing around with little fixes, rebooting, and waiting for something reasonably stable to develop for. :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
i use it for about a year now as sole phone, after some weeks with 2007.X i installed debian with fso (a kind of distri you forgot to metion, too). - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls. no problem for month now. - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls. most if not all vibrators i have known i cellphones were _way_ weaker -- most notably the treo650's, which made me lose more calls than the fr until now. - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors. no problem here. - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade. -no problem here - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the device experienced tha a long time ago, imo at least in fso that is fixed. - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this depends on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device did not suspend due to something crashing) dunno, what you mean by couple of hours, i get at least 48h standby, crashing and leaving th fr in a unsuable state happens every couple of month. i say, that's a rate other devices have too. - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR) no problem here, but i use zhone and tweaked it to read not from sim but vcf file. - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect. true - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm in comparison! compared with a plam, that's true -- but then, the palms were never able to do multi tasking. - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the one from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use landscape automatically. no problems here, i use matchbox-keyboard, which is sufficient for my needs. and i am no friend of completion either. - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated. far to general -- what software/distribution are you talking about? - The alarm clock does not work reliably. don't know, i never used them. in the beginning there were no working alarms and i bought a little alarm clock, which is the only use i have for alarms anyway. - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone and you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in. not more than about 1h -- after that the fr is able to boot and you can access it. - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non-existent. ever checked avaliable sw repos? debian has all kinds of sw available and thus even pim, the integration with other apps (namely calling/sms) is indeed missing so far. and with those apps you can sync the same way you would eg a laptop's pim with a desktop's (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player, voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...) see above. if you can't find apps for non-debian distris, it's most likely because of the fact that no one missed the really so far and cared to create them. i for one don't miss those. i don't say (like you do) it is ready. period, but i say it is ready for _me_ and sufficiently fits _my_ needs. period. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Joerg Lippmannjl_li...@donalbain.de wrote: Then the Freerunner is not for you. It may sound harsh, but it's definitely *not* suitable for daily use. Period. Brolin, I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you. There are flaws, including the ones Joerg points out, but they do not necessarily make the Freeruner unsuitable as a daily phone. I think it depends on the person. I use mine daily as my only phone and it works well for me. From your description of yourself, I suspect you would be happy with a Freerunner as well, as long as you don't expect it to do everything you want out of the box. OK, maybe I should explain. My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out a year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get something rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to replace first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does neither in a satisfactory way. I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during that time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a daily phone. Here's why: - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls. - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls. - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors. - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade. - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the device - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this depends on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device did not suspend due to something crashing) - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR) - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect. - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm in comparison! - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the one from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use landscape automatically. - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated. (- Many people I called complained about terrible buzz, but I hope to get the fix soon) - The alarm clock does not work reliably. - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone and you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in. - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non- existent. (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player, voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...) Granted, most things depend on the distro you're using. But neither is really good: OM: 2007: very stripped down, although I liked the simple interface. QTe: Overall quite OK, but no Sync, no working wifi, no usable browser, no GPRS, no usable GPS-Application SHR: good battery life when not crashing. some bad design decisions (animations are useless on this phone), slow (especially the setup-menus and finger-scrolling), ugly phone-function, contacts crash very often, tangogps is working, many SMS and calls lost. Keyboard either english-only or only usable with a pen. Android: Best of the bunch so far. But volume too low, missing keyboard in stable versions (cupcake one looks better, but is not stable enough at the moment) I'm trying to honour the work of the many developers, but in my book, this is still not a working everyday phone. Let alone a smartphone. Today, I slipped my SIM-card back into my old Siemens M55. What an experience: I got every call immediatly! I could hear what the other side was talking! I could send an SMS in a few seconds without problems and received an answer! I could also insert the number from a caller directly into my addressbook. You should try it once. My freerunner will stay in my drawer. Maybe when Android works perfectly, I will give it another try. Am Samstag 20 Juni 2009 schrieb Ben Wong: The sound quality is terrible according to Joerg, but that has not It's just way too low. I can only unterstand the other side well, when I'm in a quiet place. While with a real phone you can talk on the street or in a car, with the freerunner I can't. I tried also other alsa-state-files and fiddled myself, but without real success. Joerg also mentioned that the device is lame. I'm not quite sure what he means. Sorry, I meant slow. See above. Please, developers, don't feel like I want to thrash your work. It's just not ready for primetime, yet. I really like the design and the hires screen. It could make a cool device when it would work... j�...@home -- We will bring freedom and Leberwurst to the Welt, ob sie will oder nicht.
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Most of Joerg's comments reflect the experience I have had. On the other hand, its a GREAT portable office. You can run just about any Linux application on it and with an 8Gbyte microSD card, carry around a lot of stuff easily in your pocket. Just plug it into any old PC via WIFI, Bluetooth or USB (Preferred) and you are away. Simply great for a consulting lifestyle. It also receives and sends phone calls, although it generates too much heat to carry about in your pocket for that application. Joerg Lippmann wrote: On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Joerg Lippmannjl_li...@donalbain.de wrote: Then the Freerunner is not for you. It may sound harsh, but it's definitely *not* suitable for daily use. Period. Brolin, I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you. There are flaws, including the ones Joerg points out, but they do not necessarily make the Freeruner unsuitable as a daily phone. I think it depends on the person. I use mine daily as my only phone and it works well for me. From your description of yourself, I suspect you would be happy with a Freerunner as well, as long as you don't expect it to do everything you want out of the box. OK, maybe I should explain. My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out a year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get something rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to replace first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does neither in a satisfactory way. I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during that time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a daily phone. Here's why: - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls. - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls. - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors. - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade. - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the device - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this depends on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device did not suspend due to something crashing) - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR) - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect. - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm in comparison! - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the one from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use landscape automatically. - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated. (- Many people I called complained about terrible buzz, but I hope to get the fix soon) - The alarm clock does not work reliably. - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone and you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in. - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non- existent. (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player, voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...) Granted, most things depend on the distro you're using. But neither is really good: OM: 2007: very stripped down, although I liked the simple interface. QTe: Overall quite OK, but no Sync, no working wifi, no usable browser, no GPRS, no usable GPS-Application SHR: good battery life when not crashing. some bad design decisions (animations are useless on this phone), slow (especially the setup-menus and finger-scrolling), ugly phone-function, contacts crash very often, tangogps is working, many SMS and calls lost. Keyboard either english-only or only usable with a pen. Android: Best of the bunch so far. But volume too low, missing keyboard in stable versions (cupcake one looks better, but is not stable enough at the moment) I'm trying to honour the work of the many developers, but in my book, this is still not a working everyday phone. Let alone a smartphone. Today, I slipped my SIM-card back into my old Siemens M55. What an experience: I got every call immediatly! I could hear what the other side was talking! I could send an SMS in a few seconds without problems and received an answer! I could also insert the number from a caller directly into my addressbook. You should try it once. My freerunner will stay in my drawer. Maybe when Android works perfectly, I will give it another try. Am Samstag 20 Juni 2009 schrieb Ben Wong: The sound quality is terrible according to Joerg, but that has not It's just way too low. I can only unterstand the other
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
2009/6/20 Joerg Lippmann jl_li...@donalbain.de OK, maybe I should explain. My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out a year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get something rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to replace first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does neither in a satisfactory way. You're spreading a lot of misinformation. Since you might influence someone's decision about buying the FR, I'll address those points with which I completely disagree (about the rest I could argue). I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during that time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a daily phone. Here's why: - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls. The wake up time is about 2 to 2.5 seconds. Usually small enough for picking up the call quickly. - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls. - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors. Depends on a particular mixer setting. I could get one that's good enough for me (found a link on the wiki) - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade. - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the device - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this depends on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device did not suspend due to something crashing) With most distros you get ~48h of suspend time with the GSM running. Whether the distro you choose crashes a lot or not depends on your luck and ability to chose the right distro and version (release, testing, unstable). But agree that most of them crash occasionally, although I don't see how this influences battery life (just restart the device) - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR) - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect. - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm in comparison! There is a ton of software, and some of it is slow, some of it is fast. The device itself is pretty fast for a phone I would say. - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the one from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use landscape automatically. Then you haven't tried the illume predictive keyboard. It's better for typing sms with your finger than anything else I've seen. Certainly 10x faster than a phone without a touchscreen. - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated. (- Many people I called complained about terrible buzz, but I hope to get the fix soon) You can buy a buzz-fixed FR. - The alarm clock does not work reliably. - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone and you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in. I think it takes a few hours to reload it. The problem with starting on an empty battery have been fixed in recent devices I think. - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non- existent. (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player, voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...) Granted, most things depend on the distro you're using. But neither is really good: OM: 2007: very stripped down, although I liked the simple interface. That distro is 2.5 years old! :-) QTe: Overall quite OK, but no Sync, no working wifi, no usable browser, no GPRS, no usable GPS-Application SHR: good battery life when not crashing. some bad design decisions (animations are useless on this phone), slow (especially the setup-menus and finger-scrolling), ugly phone-function, contacts crash very often, tangogps is working, many SMS and calls lost. Keyboard either english-only or only usable with a pen. The slowness can be fixed by tweaking some settings in illume gui. Keyboard english-only? Changing the dictionary to another language is as simple as downloading a word list into the FR. Android: Best of the bunch so far. But volume too low, missing keyboard in stable versions (cupcake one looks better, but is not stable enough at the moment) Well, you definitely forgot about Om2008 and 2009. Please, developers, don't feel like I want to thrash your work. It's just not ready for primetime, yet. I really like the design and the hires screen. It could make a cool device when it would work... I will repeat the famous words, works for me. Just give it some love. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
works for me too : ) actually, i really like the thing. just with the screen was not recessed into the shell. and ffalarms works great for me. On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fmwrote: 2009/6/20 Joerg Lippmann jl_li...@donalbain.de OK, maybe I should explain. My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out a year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get something rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to replace first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does neither in a satisfactory way. You're spreading a lot of misinformation. Since you might influence someone's decision about buying the FR, I'll address those points with which I completely disagree (about the rest I could argue). I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during that time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a daily phone. Here's why: - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls. The wake up time is about 2 to 2.5 seconds. Usually small enough for picking up the call quickly. - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls. - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors. Depends on a particular mixer setting. I could get one that's good enough for me (found a link on the wiki) - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade. - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the device - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this depends on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device did not suspend due to something crashing) With most distros you get ~48h of suspend time with the GSM running. Whether the distro you choose crashes a lot or not depends on your luck and ability to chose the right distro and version (release, testing, unstable). But agree that most of them crash occasionally, although I don't see how this influences battery life (just restart the device) - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR) - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect. - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm in comparison! There is a ton of software, and some of it is slow, some of it is fast. The device itself is pretty fast for a phone I would say. - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the one from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use landscape automatically. Then you haven't tried the illume predictive keyboard. It's better for typing sms with your finger than anything else I've seen. Certainly 10x faster than a phone without a touchscreen. - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated. (- Many people I called complained about terrible buzz, but I hope to get the fix soon) You can buy a buzz-fixed FR. - The alarm clock does not work reliably. - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone and you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in. I think it takes a few hours to reload it. The problem with starting on an empty battery have been fixed in recent devices I think. - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non- existent. (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player, voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...) Granted, most things depend on the distro you're using. But neither is really good: OM: 2007: very stripped down, although I liked the simple interface. That distro is 2.5 years old! :-) QTe: Overall quite OK, but no Sync, no working wifi, no usable browser, no GPRS, no usable GPS-Application SHR: good battery life when not crashing. some bad design decisions (animations are useless on this phone), slow (especially the setup-menus and finger-scrolling), ugly phone-function, contacts crash very often, tangogps is working, many SMS and calls lost. Keyboard either english-only or only usable with a pen. The slowness can be fixed by tweaking some settings in illume gui. Keyboard english-only? Changing the dictionary to another language is as simple as downloading a word list into the FR. Android: Best of the bunch so far. But volume too low, missing keyboard in stable versions (cupcake one looks better, but is not stable enough at the moment) Well, you definitely forgot about Om2008 and 2009. Please, developers, don't feel like I want to thrash your work. It's just not ready for primetime, yet. I really like the design and the hires screen. It
Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)
Works for me too! :D It is my only phone for almost a year now. Yes, it needs A LOT of attention and tweaking for about 3 months until you get it just right for yourself, but after that it's good enough as a phone and GPS, and a pretty good PDA. And yes, the screen is not bright enough, and the earpiece not loud enough, and the vibrator not strong enough, and the audio/DSP is not perfectly tweaked yet (still some people complain in calls); but these are minor complaints when you think about all the freedom you get in installing anything you want, to use it in ways no other device lets you... Things I still miss: working out-of-the-box bluetooth integration (headsets, PAN), a rock-solid GPRS and Wifi experience (still unstable with some kinds of network and encription), and above all, a rock-solid kernel. Some people will, of course, dearly miss the 2D and 3D acceleration capabilities that the Glamo chip still does not have active (and apparently will never have). But I don't use the FR as a jukebox, so it doesn't affect me. The kernel is, in my opinion, the area where OM (the company) has failed more spectacularly; I've never had a kernel that does everything well at the same time, and it certainly has passed enough development and testing time for that to happen. For example, it is common to have a kernel revision that does at least one of these things: - crash (panic or silent lockup) on wakeup, making you lose calls - fortunately very sporadically, about once a month or less; - ruin networking (drop GPRS or WIFI packets), making a connection stall mysteriously; - corrupt the screen data (random noise in framebuffer) - also very sporadic, fortunately; - make the FR incompatible with Windows boxes (some people need this at work, you know?); - some minor hardware not working, like accelerometers; Yes, I know that most of this stuff is hard to debug, but that's the kind of thing an embedded products company does: it secures the kernel quality first and foremost. It's all water under the bridge, now that the FR is strictly community, but in my view this is what has prevented the device from being a world-class bedrock for VARs and tinkerers and inventors and anyone with and interest in FLOSS phones... I think that if the kernel was rock-solid and stable, people wouldn't care so much about which distro works? - the hardware would always just work, and the distro would be just a matter of taste and fitness for a purpose. Get the kernel right, and you have a winner. jeremy jozwik escreveu: works for me too : ) actually, i really like the thing. just with the screen was not recessed into the shell. and ffalarms works great for me. On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm mailto:ruso...@poczta.fm wrote: 2009/6/20 Joerg Lippmann jl_li...@donalbain.de mailto:jl_li...@donalbain.de OK, maybe I should explain. My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out a year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get something rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to replace first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does neither in a satisfactory way. You're spreading a lot of misinformation. Since you might influence someone's decision about buying the FR, I'll address those points with which I completely disagree (about the rest I could argue). I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during that time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a daily phone. Here's why: - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls. The wake up time is about 2 to 2.5 seconds. Usually small enough for picking up the call quickly. - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls. - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors. Depends on a particular mixer setting. I could get one that's good enough for me (found a link on the wiki) - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade. - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the device - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this depends on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device did not suspend due to something crashing) With most distros you get ~48h of suspend time with the GSM running. Whether the distro you choose crashes a lot or not depends on your luck and ability to chose the right distro and version (release, testing,
