Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary Re: Translators needed?
Salve Vincente! On Sat, 03 Feb 2007, Vincente Aggrippino wrote: > I'm coming into this conversation late, as I just joined the mailing > list, Then welcome to our openmoko community :) > but I think I can offer a more general perspective on > translation. :) > My enthusiasm towards Open Source Software has at least piqued their > curiosity and I've brought up the idea of translation. Some of them > would be willing to consider doing voluntary translation for products > that would benefit less-advantaged kids. The context for my > discussion was OpenOffice.org, but would easily apply to other > products. The advantage of opensource is that good solutions could be used on other plattforms/project. I think solutions from http://www.laptop.org will be used with OpenMoko and vice versa. I like your ambition to give children support - software, tutorials books not in their mother language is a disadvantage... But somebody could replay why supporting a luxury device, a mobil with big screen, AGPS, ... Well I think you are good in charing, when you do something with your full heart and is a pleasure for your itself. So this "luxury" device could enthuse many people to develop solutions for an embedded device. Comparing the price for the Neo with other small embedded starter kits is low and the Neo is powerfull. Back to translation - several projects are now caring about translation - this hour, I found a news about this project: http://translatedfiles.netbeans.org/ > The point I'm getting at is that I don't think there are many > professional translators, but there are many people with the same > qualifications. They just didn't choose to become translators. Good point. I was not speaking against professional people, I just tried to encourage everybody (with good skills) to be courageous to start a translation themself. I was active on the German Wikipedia for a while and their slogan for new peole was "Be courageous!" (Sei mutig!) BTW I once thought for myself it is not important if I can speak 3 or 4 languages, to know the 100 improtant words in more then 50 languages would be better than just another lauguange - why? Because saying some words in somebody mother language is respectfull and polite. So having the wikipedia article, but also a welcomeside about OpenMoko in as many as possible languages would IMHO motivate people to join the international community of OpenMoko. So welcome, thank you for your perspective - there is no "comming late.." :) Greetins, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary Re: Translators needed?
I'm coming into this conversation late, as I just joined the mailing list, but I think I can offer a more general perspective on translation. My wife, and many of her colleagues, are not native English speakers. They are all highly educated (PhD) and, among the entire group, speak several languages including English, Malay, Mandarin, Kadazan, Tagalog, Japanese, Arabic, Spanish, French, German, Hindi, Tamil, and Russian. As you might have guessed, my wife is a linguist at a major university. My enthusiasm towards Open Source Software has at least piqued their curiosity and I've brought up the idea of translation. Some of them would be willing to consider doing voluntary translation for products that would benefit less-advantaged kids. The context for my discussion was OpenOffice.org, but would easily apply to other products. The point I'm getting at is that I don't think there are many professional translators, but there are many people with the same qualifications. They just didn't choose to become translators. On 2/2/07, Marnix Klooster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Op 31-01-07 15:22, Robert Michel schreef: > Salve Engin! > > On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Engin Erenturk wrote: > >> In my opinion the translations must be done professionally for such a product like this. Instead of volunteers who are not professionals, volunteers who are professionals and volunteer who can provide a professional translation must localize this product. I localized RSSOwl into Turkish, and I gathered 3 of my friends and discussed every one of the phrases translated. But in the end it is not like a professional translation. It's very important to give the same meaning of the sentence in the localized language instead of pure translation. Sometimes it is very hard to do such a thing. The best example is the Microsoft products, even I don't support or like them, they did great job in localization... They got a big book of meanings of words/phrases which are used in Microsoft products, books etc. If someone wants to do a translation for the books etc. they gave this didctionary to them to use it as reference dictionary... As I said if there are volunteers who are >> professionsals and who can localize it with professionals must be found... I'll try to get in touch with a professional translator who is experienced in technical translations if there is a need for Turkish localization. > > I would like to disagre. Open translation has the big > advantage that people could give feedback about the > translations - many opensource projects include the > wikipedia are working without the support of professional > translators. > > Getting in touch with professional translators would help > in some rar cases of doubts/dispute. IMHO more important > is that the people who translate does know what the software > device do at that moment. Hi Rob, First, as Engin already wrote in another response I think, "open" and "professional" are not opposites. His suggestion is, if I understood him correctly, to find volunteers who are already software translators professionally. Also, yes you are correct that "many opensource projects [...] are working without the support of professional translators." And it shows. I absolutely do not intend any disrespect with that-- I'm really very grateful to the people (volunteers mostly) who make OpenOffice, GNOME, Evolution, Thunderbird, Firefox, etc. etc. available in Dutch on my home Linux box, so that also my wife can use the system comfortably. However, there definitely are many problems: inconsistencies between applications, inconsistencies with Microsoft software (yes, unfortunately this is important), different views of translators (most keep the English "website", some translate it to the horrendous neologism "webplek"), missing translations because the translation could not keep up with new releases of the application, etc. Such problems are minor, in the sense that they usually do not block understanding of what is going on, what should I do next, etc. But they make the experience less polished and more botched. And for a device that we want in lots of non-developer hands, we need polish. Translation is a thing that Microsoft does really well, as far as I've seen. In my opinion, the officially-blessed-by-OpenMoko software feed also should aim for a high level of translation quality, consistency, and completeness. So again, professional volunteers are welcome :-) Groetjes, <>< Marnix ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary Re: Translators needed?
Op 31-01-07 15:22, Robert Michel schreef: Salve Engin! On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Engin Erenturk wrote: In my opinion the translations must be done professionally for such a product like this. Instead of volunteers who are not professionals, volunteers who are professionals and volunteer who can provide a professional translation must localize this product. I localized RSSOwl into Turkish, and I gathered 3 of my friends and discussed every one of the phrases translated. But in the end it is not like a professional translation. It's very important to give the same meaning of the sentence in the localized language instead of pure translation. Sometimes it is very hard to do such a thing. The best example is the Microsoft products, even I don't support or like them, they did great job in localization... They got a big book of meanings of words/phrases which are used in Microsoft products, books etc. If someone wants to do a translation for the books etc. they gave this didctionary to them to use it as reference dictionary... As I said if there are volunteers who are professionsals and who can localize it with professionals must be found... I'll try to get in touch with a professional translator who is experienced in technical translations if there is a need for Turkish localization. I would like to disagre. Open translation has the big advantage that people could give feedback about the translations - many opensource projects include the wikipedia are working without the support of professional translators. Getting in touch with professional translators would help in some rar cases of doubts/dispute. IMHO more important is that the people who translate does know what the software device do at that moment. Hi Rob, First, as Engin already wrote in another response I think, "open" and "professional" are not opposites. His suggestion is, if I understood him correctly, to find volunteers who are already software translators professionally. Also, yes you are correct that "many opensource projects [...] are working without the support of professional translators." And it shows. I absolutely do not intend any disrespect with that-- I'm really very grateful to the people (volunteers mostly) who make OpenOffice, GNOME, Evolution, Thunderbird, Firefox, etc. etc. available in Dutch on my home Linux box, so that also my wife can use the system comfortably. However, there definitely are many problems: inconsistencies between applications, inconsistencies with Microsoft software (yes, unfortunately this is important), different views of translators (most keep the English "website", some translate it to the horrendous neologism "webplek"), missing translations because the translation could not keep up with new releases of the application, etc. Such problems are minor, in the sense that they usually do not block understanding of what is going on, what should I do next, etc. But they make the experience less polished and more botched. And for a device that we want in lots of non-developer hands, we need polish. Translation is a thing that Microsoft does really well, as far as I've seen. In my opinion, the officially-blessed-by-OpenMoko software feed also should aim for a high level of translation quality, consistency, and completeness. So again, professional volunteers are welcome :-) Groetjes, <>< Marnix ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary Re: Translators needed?
Salve Engin! I like your motivation and your will to find a some experienced in localisation/translation. You have the experiance with the localization of RSSOwl and that the help of 3 friends seems not to be enought to reach a professional translation. On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Engin Erenturk wrote: > I think you got me wrong. I'm not against open translations, I know how > wikipedia works, and I really believe thats the true way for many areas. What > I want to say that, this is a phone and this phone can be used anyone... so > the localizations must be done very carefully, because you have to tell the > user the exact meaning or explanation of an icon, a small text, or a button. You are right, whe you are publishing it, you must be carefull. I thought about to translate man pages into German, but I didn't done it, because I saw this is to complecated - I don't find the right words for 100%. So when we have an open system, a translation into German would be read by many people that I do not know - when they have a better formulation they could change it - maybe with a small comment why, maybe with a small hint where there have this expression from. > This is what I'm facing at the Turkish of the devices I've got. Even some > world brand devices have really bad localizations.For example I've a Sony > handycam and the menu localization is terrible. I'm not saying that a pro > must do this and no one can change it. I say, someone experienced in > localization of this kind of devices can be very useful. Useful yes. A good friend of mine has one of his job at his company to test software of mobiles for big companies... I'm telling him about OpenMoko/Neo1973, but I do not try to get some help from him. So manybe a professional translator does have some seperation of business and freedomwork as well - I don't know. I just tried to encorage you and other to do not think "my skills are not good enough, we need a professional for this.." no - OpenMoko is a training field where you can join for fun, for getting some new skills, for supporting this project and the reposablility of a good translation will not belongs to you - it will belongs to the community. When somebody take the time and did a translation as good as he could - and nobody who read this will make some improvements - then the others are reponsable for the bad localization. Having very low barrier/hurdle to support this project is very important - I hope everybody will be surprised what he could contribute and how easy it was... So I didn't want to stop you - I only tried to motivate and encourage that everybody has skills good enough to contribute - no professional skills needed :) best wishes from Aachen, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary Re: Translators needed?
Hi Robert, I totally respect your ideas. I think you got me wrong. I'm not against open translations, I know how wikipedia works, and I really believe thats the true way for many areas. What I want to say that, this is a phone and this phone can be used anyone... so the localizations must be done very carefully, because you have to tell the user the exact meaning or explanation of an icon, a small text, or a button. This is what I'm facing at the Turkish of the devices I've got. Even some world brand devices have really bad localizations.For example I've a Sony handycam and the menu localization is terrible. I'm not saying that a pro must do this and no one can change it. I say, someone experienced in localization of this kind of devices can be very useful. best regards Engin Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Salve Engin! On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Engin Erenturk wrote: > In my opinion the translations must be done professionally for such a product > like this. Instead of volunteers who are not professionals, volunteers who > are professionals and volunteer who can provide a professional translation > must localize this product. I localized RSSOwl into Turkish, and I gathered 3 > of my friends and discussed every one of the phrases translated. But in the > end it is not like a professional translation. It's very important to give > the same meaning of the sentence in the localized language instead of pure > translation. Sometimes it is very hard to do such a thing. The best example > is the Microsoft products, even I don't support or like them, they did great > job in localization... They got a big book of meanings of words/phrases which > are used in Microsoft products, books etc. If someone wants to do a > translation for the books etc. they gave this didctionary to them to use it > as reference dictionary... As I said if there are volunteers who are > professionsals and who can localize it with professionals must be found... > I'll try to get in touch with a professional translator who is experienced in > technical translations if there is a need for Turkish localization. I would like to disagre. Open translation has the big advantage that people could give feedback about the translations - many opensource projects include the wikipedia are working without the support of professional translators. Getting in touch with professional translators would help in some rar cases of doubts/dispute. IMHO more important is that the people who translate does know what the software device do at that moment. Some "meta" translation - creating an own specialised dictionary for mobil communications could help to do the translations. Has anybody experiances with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary? Would it possible to join Wiktionary with having a specialised dictionary for mobil communication OpenMoko-Wiktionary? Greetings rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary Re: Translators needed?
Salve Engin! On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Engin Erenturk wrote: > In my opinion the translations must be done professionally for such a product > like this. Instead of volunteers who are not professionals, volunteers who > are professionals and volunteer who can provide a professional translation > must localize this product. I localized RSSOwl into Turkish, and I gathered 3 > of my friends and discussed every one of the phrases translated. But in the > end it is not like a professional translation. It's very important to give > the same meaning of the sentence in the localized language instead of pure > translation. Sometimes it is very hard to do such a thing. The best example > is the Microsoft products, even I don't support or like them, they did great > job in localization... They got a big book of meanings of words/phrases which > are used in Microsoft products, books etc. If someone wants to do a > translation for the books etc. they gave this didctionary to them to use it > as reference dictionary... As I said if there are volunteers who are > professionsals and who can localize it with professionals must be found... > I'll try to get in touch with a professional translator who is experienced in > technical translations if there is a need for Turkish localization. I would like to disagre. Open translation has the big advantage that people could give feedback about the translations - many opensource projects include the wikipedia are working without the support of professional translators. Getting in touch with professional translators would help in some rar cases of doubts/dispute. IMHO more important is that the people who translate does know what the software device do at that moment. Some "meta" translation - creating an own specialised dictionary for mobil communications could help to do the translations. Has anybody experiances with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary? Would it possible to join Wiktionary with having a specialised dictionary for mobil communication OpenMoko-Wiktionary? Greetings rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
