Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Belisko Marek]

Hi All,

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
>
> Am 15.11.2017 um 11:11 schrieb Thomas Munker :
>
> Hi,
>
> how complicate is it, to add some sort of button?
> I would prefer a non mechanic one, i think they are capacity-based read out,
> simple metal plates.
>
>
> A capacitive sensor is more difficult. It needs an additional chip (for
> example MTCH101-I/OT from MicroChip looks good),
> and additional passive components all properly wired up. And some space for
> a touch area.
>
> It might even be bigger and more expensive than a simple push button like
> Panasonic EVQ-Q2Y03W.
> And a mechanical button is more reliable and gives tactile feedback.
>
> So I'd prefer a mechanical one. Just one component :)
>
> I like the idea, that the key should only provide crypto operations, when it
> is touched. I guess, the mainwork would have to be done on SW-side. to
> achieve that kind of functionality.
>
>
> Yes.
>
> But since hardware is not so easy changeable, it would have to provide the
> capability already.
>
>
> Yes!
>
> I know that this is not as safe as a key-pin, but for some low priority
> things i would prefer such a mechanism.
>
> How do you want to work with the original author and community of
> FST01/Gnuk? Will they support/work with us and get some financial support
> for sold sticks? Maybe they would be glad if their child will get a new
> production batch run and add to our orders.
>
>
> Good question. Especially if there is a need for firmware upgrade
> (push-button) our community isn't the right one to work on this.
> We should keep a focus on what we can and that is hardware and smartphone
> software.
>
> Since I have no direct contact to the FST01 community I think someone who
> knows them better (and is ideally known by them)
> should introduce this activity and establish the connection.
Anybody willing to do what Nikolaus proposed? If not I can try to
establish some connection with FST01 community.
or somebody else already active and willing to do so? Just want to
recover communication to avoid putting this idea to dust :D
>
> BR,
> Nikolaus
>
>
> Greets,
> Thomas
>
>
> Am 15. November 2017 09:40:26 MEZ schrieb Belisko Marek
> :
>>
>> Hi Nikolaus,
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:01 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi Marek,
>>>
  Am 15.11.2017 um 08:46 schrieb Belisko Marek :

  Hi Nikolaus,

  On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
  wrote:
>
>  Hi Marek,
>  this are nice findings!
>
>  Did I understand all that correctly that one just needs some 3.3V
> compatible UART plus host software?
>
>  The FST-01 hardware has three connector pads for
>  * GND
>  * SWCLK
>  * SWDIO
>
>  where it is expected to connect the ST-link. These pin names look a
> little more like I2C than UART.
>  Or are they dual-function?

  According other app note:

 https://www.google.sk/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwjyzaDIisDXAhVMfxoKHaALBx0QFggmMAA=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.com%2Fresource%2Fen%2Fapplication_note%2Fcd00167594.pdf=AOvVaw0qX4Dmhs0QSw4vcuN33uhq
  it looks like there are various pattern how to start bootloader stored
  in internal ROM (burn in production).
>>>
>>>
>>>  This seems to be very similar to the BOOT options of the OMAP
>>> processors.
>>>  One of them is well know to GTA04 users: the AUX button modifies boot
>>> sequence from NAND-MMC-UART to MMC-NAND-UART.
>>>
  So maybe we will just need some
  jumper and connector to plug usb->uart converter and user can then
  easily update SW in stm32.
>
>
>  And do we need to pull up/down some other pin to enable this
> programming protocol?
>>
>> I have at home some STM32 eval board with many uarts so I'll check
>> what is necessary to have bootloader running and get back with
>> results.
>
>
>  Generally I'd like to avoid adding costly hardware which is rarely
> used.
>  One thing is that it may well make the cost go up to 50€ per key...
>  And the other is that it needs space making the key bigger.

  So adding small connector (rx,tx,gnd) + maybe 1 jumper for force
  bootloader to start shouldn't be so expensive ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>  Yes, that would be easy. Maybe we can use the standard FTDI-6pin UART
>>> connector like it is used for BeagleBone, Letux Cortex 8, PocketBone etc.
>>>
>>>  Do you know which pins we have to touch on the STM32F103TB (used by the
>>> FST-01)?
>>>  The schematics shows BOOT0 and BOOT1 pins both tied to GND. And SWDIO
>>> and SWCLK are going to jumper.
>>>
>>>  Or can we even have the boot loader of the STM32F103TB watch USB?
>>>
>>>  Well, that would be some security risk since a rogue usb driver
>>>  could reflash the crypto firmware without users noticing...
>>>
>>>  But a 

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Thomas,

> Am 15.11.2017 um 11:11 schrieb Thomas Munker :
> 
> Hi,
> 
> how complicate is it, to add some sort of button?
> I would prefer a non mechanic one, i think they are capacity-based read out, 
> simple metal plates.

A capacitive sensor is more difficult. It needs an additional chip (for example 
MTCH101-I/OT from MicroChip looks good),
and additional passive components all properly wired up. And some space for a 
touch area.

It might even be bigger and more expensive than a simple push button like 
Panasonic EVQ-Q2Y03W.
And a mechanical button is more reliable and gives tactile feedback.

So I'd prefer a mechanical one. Just one component :)

> I like the idea, that the key should only provide crypto operations, when it 
> is touched. I guess, the mainwork would have to be done on SW-side. to 
> achieve that kind of functionality.

Yes.

> But since hardware is not so easy changeable, it would have to provide the 
> capability already. 

Yes!

> I know that this is not as safe as a key-pin, but for some low priority 
> things i would prefer such a mechanism.
> 
> How do you want to work with the original author and community of FST01/Gnuk? 
> Will they support/work with us and get some financial support for sold 
> sticks? Maybe they would be glad if their child will get a new production 
> batch run and add to our orders.

Good question. Especially if there is a need for firmware upgrade (push-button) 
our community isn't the right one to work on this.
We should keep a focus on what we can and that is hardware and smartphone 
software.

Since I have no direct contact to the FST01 community I think someone who knows 
them better (and is ideally known by them)
should introduce this activity and establish the connection.

BR,
Nikolaus

> 
> Greets,
> Thomas
> 
> 
> Am 15. November 2017 09:40:26 MEZ schrieb Belisko Marek 
> :
> Hi Nikolaus,
> 
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:01 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
> wrote:
>  Hi Marek,
> 
>  Am 15.11.2017 um 08:46 schrieb Belisko Marek :
> 
>  Hi Nikolaus,
> 
>  On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
> wrote:
>  Hi Marek,
>  this are nice findings!
> 
>  Did I understand all that correctly that one just needs some 3.3V compatible 
> UART plus host software?
> 
>  The FST-01 hardware has three connector pads for
>  * GND
>  * SWCLK
>  * SWDIO
> 
>  where it is expected to connect the ST-link. These pin names look a little 
> more like I2C than UART.
>  Or are they dual-function?
>  According other app note:
>  
> https://www.google.sk/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwjyzaDIisDXAhVMfxoKHaALBx0QFggmMAA=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.com%2Fresource%2Fen%2Fapplication_note%2Fcd00167594.pdf=AOvVaw0qX4Dmhs0QSw4vcuN33uhq
>  
> 
>  it looks like there are various pattern how to start bootloader stored
>  in internal ROM (burn in production).
> 
>  This seems to be very similar to the BOOT options of the OMAP processors.
>  One of them is well know to GTA04 users: the AUX button modifies boot 
> sequence from NAND-MMC-UART to MMC-NAND-UART.
> 
>  So maybe we will just need some
>  jumper and connector to plug usb->uart converter and user can then
>  easily update SW in stm32.
> 
>  And do we need to pull up/down some other pin to enable this programming 
> protocol?
> I have at home some STM32 eval board with many uarts so I'll check
> what is necessary to have bootloader running and get back with
> results.
> 
>  Generally I'd like to avoid adding costly hardware which is rarely used.
>  One thing is that it may well make the cost go up to 50€ per key...
>  And the other is that it needs space making the key bigger.
>  So adding small connector (rx,tx,gnd) + maybe 1 jumper for force
>  bootloader to start shouldn't be so expensive ;)
> 
>  Yes, that would be easy. Maybe we can use the standard FTDI-6pin UART 
> connector like it is used for BeagleBone, Letux Cortex 8, PocketBone etc.
> 
>  Do you know which pins we have to touch on the STM32F103TB (used by the 
> FST-01)?
>  The schematics shows BOOT0 and BOOT1 pins both tied to GND. And SWDIO and 
> SWCLK are going to jumper.
> 
>  Or can we even have the boot loader of the STM32F103TB watch USB?
> 
>  Well, that would be some security risk since a rogue usb driver
>  could reflash the crypto firmware without users noticing...
> 
>  But a solution could be that flashing requires some solder blob on the PCB.
> 
>  BR and thanks,
>  Nikolaus
> 
> 
>  BR,
>  Nikolaus
> 
>  BR,
> 
>  marem
>  Am 14.11.2017 um 13:16 schrieb Belisko Marek :
> 
>  Hi,
> 
>  On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Belisko Marek  
> wrote:
>  Hi Nikolaus,
> 
>  On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:12 PM, 

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 15.11.2017 um 09:40 schrieb Belisko Marek :
> 
> Hi Nikolaus,
> 
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:01 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
> wrote:
>> Hi Marek,
>> 
>>> Am 15.11.2017 um 08:46 schrieb Belisko Marek :
>>> 
>>> Hi Nikolaus,
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
>>> wrote:
 Hi Marek,
 this are nice findings!
 
 Did I understand all that correctly that one just needs some 3.3V 
 compatible UART plus host software?
 
 The FST-01 hardware has three connector pads for
 * GND
 * SWCLK
 * SWDIO
 
 where it is expected to connect the ST-link. These pin names look a little 
 more like I2C than UART.
 Or are they dual-function?
>>> According other app note:
>>> https://www.google.sk/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwjyzaDIisDXAhVMfxoKHaALBx0QFggmMAA=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.com%2Fresource%2Fen%2Fapplication_note%2Fcd00167594.pdf=AOvVaw0qX4Dmhs0QSw4vcuN33uhq
>>> it looks like there are various pattern how to start bootloader stored
>>> in internal ROM (burn in production).
>> 
>> This seems to be very similar to the BOOT options of the OMAP processors.
>> One of them is well know to GTA04 users: the AUX button modifies boot 
>> sequence from NAND-MMC-UART to MMC-NAND-UART.
>> 
>>> So maybe we will just need some
>>> jumper and connector to plug usb->uart converter and user can then
>>> easily update SW in stm32.
 
 And do we need to pull up/down some other pin to enable this programming 
 protocol?
> I have at home some STM32 eval board with many uarts so I'll check
> what is necessary to have bootloader running and get back with
> results.

Fine!

In the meantime I found an article in German:

https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/439156#new

They discuss
* a 2 EUR ST-Link clone from China
* that it is needed to connect GND, SWDIO, SWCLK, sometimes VDD and sometimes 
RESET

But a pure USB-flashing solution would even be better (if possible).

BR,
Nikolaus

 
 Generally I'd like to avoid adding costly hardware which is rarely used.
 One thing is that it may well make the cost go up to 50€ per key...
 And the other is that it needs space making the key bigger.
>>> So adding small connector (rx,tx,gnd) + maybe 1 jumper for force
>>> bootloader to start shouldn't be so expensive ;)
>> 
>> Yes, that would be easy. Maybe we can use the standard FTDI-6pin UART 
>> connector like it is used for BeagleBone, Letux Cortex 8, PocketBone etc.
>> 
>> Do you know which pins we have to touch on the STM32F103TB (used by the 
>> FST-01)?
>> The schematics shows BOOT0 and BOOT1 pins both tied to GND. And SWDIO and 
>> SWCLK are going to jumper.
>> 
>> Or can we even have the boot loader of the STM32F103TB watch USB?
>> 
>> Well, that would be some security risk since a rogue usb driver
>> could reflash the crypto firmware without users noticing...
>> 
>> But a solution could be that flashing requires some solder blob on the PCB.
>> 
>> BR and thanks,
>> Nikolaus
>> 
 
 BR,
 Nikolaus
 
>>> BR,
>>> 
>>> marem
> Am 14.11.2017 um 13:16 schrieb Belisko Marek :
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Belisko Marek  
> wrote:
>> Hi Nikolaus,
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:12 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi Marek,
>>> 
 Am 13.11.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Belisko Marek :
 
 On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek 
  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller 
>  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>>> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>>> 
>>> "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
>>> 
 Hi Paul,
 
> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
> 
> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
>>> 
>>> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. 
>>> yubikey.
>>> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary 
>>> interface
>>> hardware
>> 
>> I have checked what they have:
>> 
>> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
>> 
>> 
>> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor 
>> Micro-USB. So it
>> needs a proper adapter.
> 
> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and 

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Thomas Munker]

Hi,

how complicate is it, to add some sort of button?
I would prefer a non mechanic one, i think they are capacity-based read out, 
simple metal plates.

I like the idea, that the key should only provide crypto operations, when it is 
touched. I guess, the mainwork would have to be done on SW-side. to achieve 
that kind of functionality. But since hardware is not so easy changeable, it 
would have to provide the capability already. 
I know that this is not as safe as a key-pin, but for some low priority things 
i would prefer such a mechanism.

How do you want to work with the original author and community of FST01/Gnuk? 
Will they support/work with us and get some financial support for sold sticks? 
Maybe they would be glad if their child will get a new production batch run and 
add to our orders.

Greets,
Thomas
 

Am 15. November 2017 09:40:26 MEZ schrieb Belisko Marek 
:
>Hi Nikolaus,
>
>On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:01 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
> wrote:
>> Hi Marek,
>>
>>> Am 15.11.2017 um 08:46 schrieb Belisko Marek
>:
>>>
>>> Hi Nikolaus,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
> wrote:
 Hi Marek,
 this are nice findings!

 Did I understand all that correctly that one just needs some 3.3V
>compatible UART plus host software?

 The FST-01 hardware has three connector pads for
 * GND
 * SWCLK
 * SWDIO

 where it is expected to connect the ST-link. These pin names look a
>little more like I2C than UART.
 Or are they dual-function?
>>> According other app note:
>>>
>https://www.google.sk/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwjyzaDIisDXAhVMfxoKHaALBx0QFggmMAA=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.com%2Fresource%2Fen%2Fapplication_note%2Fcd00167594.pdf=AOvVaw0qX4Dmhs0QSw4vcuN33uhq
>>> it looks like there are various pattern how to start bootloader
>stored
>>> in internal ROM (burn in production).
>>
>> This seems to be very similar to the BOOT options of the OMAP
>processors.
>> One of them is well know to GTA04 users: the AUX button modifies boot
>sequence from NAND-MMC-UART to MMC-NAND-UART.
>>
>>> So maybe we will just need some
>>> jumper and connector to plug usb->uart converter and user can then
>>> easily update SW in stm32.

 And do we need to pull up/down some other pin to enable this
>programming protocol?
>I have at home some STM32 eval board with many uarts so I'll check
>what is necessary to have bootloader running and get back with
>results.

 Generally I'd like to avoid adding costly hardware which is rarely
>used.
 One thing is that it may well make the cost go up to 50€ per key...
 And the other is that it needs space making the key bigger.
>>> So adding small connector (rx,tx,gnd) + maybe 1 jumper for force
>>> bootloader to start shouldn't be so expensive ;)
>>
>> Yes, that would be easy. Maybe we can use the standard FTDI-6pin UART
>connector like it is used for BeagleBone, Letux Cortex 8, PocketBone
>etc.
>>
>> Do you know which pins we have to touch on the STM32F103TB (used by
>the FST-01)?
>> The schematics shows BOOT0 and BOOT1 pins both tied to GND. And SWDIO
>and SWCLK are going to jumper.
>>
>> Or can we even have the boot loader of the STM32F103TB watch USB?
>>
>> Well, that would be some security risk since a rogue usb driver
>> could reflash the crypto firmware without users noticing...
>>
>> But a solution could be that flashing requires some solder blob on
>the PCB.
>>
>> BR and thanks,
>> Nikolaus
>>

 BR,
 Nikolaus

>>> BR,
>>>
>>> marem
> Am 14.11.2017 um 13:16 schrieb Belisko Marek
>:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Belisko Marek
> wrote:
>> Hi Nikolaus,
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:12 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi Marek,
>>>
 Am 13.11.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Belisko Marek
>:

 On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>>>
>>> "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
>>>
 Hi Paul,

> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie
>:
>
> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller
>wrote:
>>> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker
>:
>>>
>>> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware,
>like eg. yubikey.
>>> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with
>necessary interface
>>> hardware
>>
>> I have checked what they 

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Belisko Marek]

Hi Nikolaus,

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:01 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
wrote:
> Hi Marek,
>
>> Am 15.11.2017 um 08:46 schrieb Belisko Marek :
>>
>> Hi Nikolaus,
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
>> wrote:
>>> Hi Marek,
>>> this are nice findings!
>>>
>>> Did I understand all that correctly that one just needs some 3.3V 
>>> compatible UART plus host software?
>>>
>>> The FST-01 hardware has three connector pads for
>>> * GND
>>> * SWCLK
>>> * SWDIO
>>>
>>> where it is expected to connect the ST-link. These pin names look a little 
>>> more like I2C than UART.
>>> Or are they dual-function?
>> According other app note:
>> https://www.google.sk/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwjyzaDIisDXAhVMfxoKHaALBx0QFggmMAA=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.com%2Fresource%2Fen%2Fapplication_note%2Fcd00167594.pdf=AOvVaw0qX4Dmhs0QSw4vcuN33uhq
>> it looks like there are various pattern how to start bootloader stored
>> in internal ROM (burn in production).
>
> This seems to be very similar to the BOOT options of the OMAP processors.
> One of them is well know to GTA04 users: the AUX button modifies boot 
> sequence from NAND-MMC-UART to MMC-NAND-UART.
>
>> So maybe we will just need some
>> jumper and connector to plug usb->uart converter and user can then
>> easily update SW in stm32.
>>>
>>> And do we need to pull up/down some other pin to enable this programming 
>>> protocol?
I have at home some STM32 eval board with many uarts so I'll check
what is necessary to have bootloader running and get back with
results.
>>>
>>> Generally I'd like to avoid adding costly hardware which is rarely used.
>>> One thing is that it may well make the cost go up to 50€ per key...
>>> And the other is that it needs space making the key bigger.
>> So adding small connector (rx,tx,gnd) + maybe 1 jumper for force
>> bootloader to start shouldn't be so expensive ;)
>
> Yes, that would be easy. Maybe we can use the standard FTDI-6pin UART 
> connector like it is used for BeagleBone, Letux Cortex 8, PocketBone etc.
>
> Do you know which pins we have to touch on the STM32F103TB (used by the 
> FST-01)?
> The schematics shows BOOT0 and BOOT1 pins both tied to GND. And SWDIO and 
> SWCLK are going to jumper.
>
> Or can we even have the boot loader of the STM32F103TB watch USB?
>
> Well, that would be some security risk since a rogue usb driver
> could reflash the crypto firmware without users noticing...
>
> But a solution could be that flashing requires some solder blob on the PCB.
>
> BR and thanks,
> Nikolaus
>
>>>
>>> BR,
>>> Nikolaus
>>>
>> BR,
>>
>> marem
 Am 14.11.2017 um 13:16 schrieb Belisko Marek :

 Hi,

 On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Belisko Marek  
 wrote:
> Hi Nikolaus,
>
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:12 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
>  wrote:
>> Hi Marek,
>>
>>> Am 13.11.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Belisko Marek :
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek 
>>>  wrote:
 Hi,

 On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller 
  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>>
>> "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
>>
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
 Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :

 On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
>>
>> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. 
>> yubikey.
>> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary 
>> interface
>> hardware
>
> I have checked what they have:
>
> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
> 
>
> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor 
> Micro-USB. So it
> needs a proper adapter.

 There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:

 https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/

 It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and 
 FST-01.
>>>
>>> Interesting reading!
>>>
>>> To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
>>> enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...
>>>
>>> Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't 
>>> the fastest one:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Marek,

> Am 15.11.2017 um 08:46 schrieb Belisko Marek :
> 
> Hi Nikolaus,
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
> wrote:
>> Hi Marek,
>> this are nice findings!
>> 
>> Did I understand all that correctly that one just needs some 3.3V compatible 
>> UART plus host software?
>> 
>> The FST-01 hardware has three connector pads for
>> * GND
>> * SWCLK
>> * SWDIO
>> 
>> where it is expected to connect the ST-link. These pin names look a little 
>> more like I2C than UART.
>> Or are they dual-function?
> According other app note:
> https://www.google.sk/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwjyzaDIisDXAhVMfxoKHaALBx0QFggmMAA=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.com%2Fresource%2Fen%2Fapplication_note%2Fcd00167594.pdf=AOvVaw0qX4Dmhs0QSw4vcuN33uhq
> it looks like there are various pattern how to start bootloader stored
> in internal ROM (burn in production).

This seems to be very similar to the BOOT options of the OMAP processors.
One of them is well know to GTA04 users: the AUX button modifies boot sequence 
from NAND-MMC-UART to MMC-NAND-UART.

> So maybe we will just need some
> jumper and connector to plug usb->uart converter and user can then
> easily update SW in stm32.
>> 
>> And do we need to pull up/down some other pin to enable this programming 
>> protocol?
>> 
>> Generally I'd like to avoid adding costly hardware which is rarely used.
>> One thing is that it may well make the cost go up to 50€ per key...
>> And the other is that it needs space making the key bigger.
> So adding small connector (rx,tx,gnd) + maybe 1 jumper for force
> bootloader to start shouldn't be so expensive ;)

Yes, that would be easy. Maybe we can use the standard FTDI-6pin UART connector 
like it is used for BeagleBone, Letux Cortex 8, PocketBone etc.

Do you know which pins we have to touch on the STM32F103TB (used by the FST-01)?
The schematics shows BOOT0 and BOOT1 pins both tied to GND. And SWDIO and SWCLK 
are going to jumper.

Or can we even have the boot loader of the STM32F103TB watch USB?

Well, that would be some security risk since a rogue usb driver
could reflash the crypto firmware without users noticing...

But a solution could be that flashing requires some solder blob on the PCB.

BR and thanks,
Nikolaus

>> 
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
>> 
> BR,
> 
> marem
>>> Am 14.11.2017 um 13:16 schrieb Belisko Marek :
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Belisko Marek  
>>> wrote:
 Hi Nikolaus,
 
 On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:12 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
  wrote:
> Hi Marek,
> 
>> Am 13.11.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Belisko Marek :
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek 
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller 
>>>  wrote:
 Hi all,
 
> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
> 
> "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
> 
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>>> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
>>> 
>>> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
> 
> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. 
> yubikey.
> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary 
> interface
> hardware
 
 I have checked what they have:
 
 https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
 
 
 It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor 
 Micro-USB. So it
 needs a proper adapter.
>>> 
>>> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:
>>> 
>>> https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/
>>> 
>>> It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and 
>>> FST-01.
>> 
>> Interesting reading!
>> 
>> To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
>> enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...
>> 
>> Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the 
>> fastest one:
>> 
>> https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png
>> 
>> So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by 
>> us at
>> a reasonable price.
 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any 

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Belisko Marek]

Hi Nikolaus,

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
wrote:
> Hi Marek,
> this are nice findings!
>
> Did I understand all that correctly that one just needs some 3.3V compatible 
> UART plus host software?
>
> The FST-01 hardware has three connector pads for
> * GND
> * SWCLK
> * SWDIO
>
> where it is expected to connect the ST-link. These pin names look a little 
> more like I2C than UART.
> Or are they dual-function?
According other app note:
https://www.google.sk/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwjyzaDIisDXAhVMfxoKHaALBx0QFggmMAA=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.st.com%2Fresource%2Fen%2Fapplication_note%2Fcd00167594.pdf=AOvVaw0qX4Dmhs0QSw4vcuN33uhq
it looks like there are various pattern how to start bootloader stored
in internal ROM (burn in production). So maybe we will just need some
jumper and connector to plug usb->uart converter and user can then
easily update SW in stm32.
>
> And do we need to pull up/down some other pin to enable this programming 
> protocol?
>
> Generally I'd like to avoid adding costly hardware which is rarely used.
> One thing is that it may well make the cost go up to 50€ per key...
> And the other is that it needs space making the key bigger.
So adding small connector (rx,tx,gnd) + maybe 1 jumper for force
bootloader to start shouldn't be so expensive ;)
>
> BR,
> Nikolaus
>
BR,

marem
>> Am 14.11.2017 um 13:16 schrieb Belisko Marek :
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Belisko Marek  
>> wrote:
>>> Hi Nikolaus,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:12 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
>>>  wrote:
 Hi Marek,

> Am 13.11.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Belisko Marek :
>
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek  
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller 
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
 Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :

 "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:

> Hi Paul,
>
>> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
>>
>> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :

 i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. 
 yubikey.
 At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary 
 interface
 hardware
>>>
>>> I have checked what they have:
>>>
>>> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
>>> 
>>>
>>> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor Micro-USB. 
>>> So it
>>> needs a proper adapter.
>>
>> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:
>>
>> https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/
>>
>> It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and 
>> FST-01.
>
> Interesting reading!
>
> To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
> enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...
>
> Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the 
> fastest one:
>
> https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png
>
> So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by 
> us at
> a reasonable price.
>>>

 I agree.

 I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to
 buy one.
>>>
>>> I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to 
>>> prepare for
>>> producing some clone...
>>>
>>> Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for 
>>> tiny
>>> quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to provide
>>> permanent supply.
>>>
>>> What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected to
>>> a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
>>>
>>> One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
>>>
>>> Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so 
>>> that
>>> it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
>>>
>>> Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does someone 
>>> have
>>> an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
>>>
>>> USB-C makes no sense IMHO, because then a much faster processor with 
>>> USB3 speed
>>> should be used... This would be a completely different project.
>>>

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Arsenijs,

> Am 14.11.2017 um 19:10 schrieb Pičugins Arsenijs :
> 
>> But are they safe for those batteries ? Did you try them?
> 
> I have disassembled some of the "universal springy pins" chargers and they do 
> not seem safe, they don't seem to use specialised charging ICs and usually 
> use some kind of half-assed passives-based solution that ignores the CC/CV 
> cycle requirements for LiIon charging. They could be safe to use if you were 
> to throw out all the electronics and replace them with your own.
> 
>> I half remember most smartphone batteries include a charger chip
>> and GTA04 batteries do not (the chip is in the phone and should be
>> in the charger).
> 
> That is definitely not the case. 99.999% is that the "charger", that is, the 
> thing with a MicroUSB cable you plug into the wall socket, only provides 
> constant voltage and some guarantee about max current available (say, 5V/2A). 
> The phone has a charging chip inside, which takes 5V and uses it to charge 
> the battery, controlling the charging rate and stopping the charging process 
> when the battery is full. The battery itself doesn't have any provisions for 
> charging inside, aside from a protection circuit that prevents it from 
> overcharging (doesn't have to be there, but is included in 99.99% phones 
> with LiIon batteries),

The GTA0x batteries we are considering here have such a protection inside.

> and a thermistor so that the charger can measure temperature of the battery 
> and stop charging when the battery is too hot. Talking about protection 
> circuit, it protects from 1) discharging the battery too deep (because it 
> will get damaged, and in certain circumstances might burst into flames when 
> charged the next time), 2) overcharging the battery (even though the cha
> rger is not supposed to do that, there's still a small chance, like charger 
> short-circuiting 5V onto its output because of a power surge) and 3) 
> short-circuiting the battery. Again, that is just how phones are built, at 
> least for a decade now.

You were faster and more elaborate than I was :)

BR,
Nikolaus

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 14.11.2017 um 18:29 schrieb Xavi Drudis Ferran :
> 
> El Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:20:12AM -0700, j deia:
>> you can get universal battery chargers in Ebay, they are spring loaded and 
>> have charge pins that can be moved side to side to accommodate most cell 
>> phone batteries 
>> 
> 
> But are they safe for those batteries ? Did you try them?
> 
> I half remember most smartphone batteries include a charger chip 
> and GTA04 batteries do not (the chip is in the phone and should be 
> in the charger). 
> 
> But maybe I got it wrong, I remember having read about it lng ago. 

There is a bq27000 fuel gauge in the GTA0x batteries - it remembers the fuel 
level even if the battery is taken out.

There must be some charger which which knows how to safely charge LiIon 
batteries until they are full.
The GTA04 has a twl4030/tps65950 with some optional software control.
For the separate charger I want to use the bq24040.

Both (twl4030/b24040) need some external power, usually 5V from an USB wall 
charger.
Safely building such a device is beyond my plans...

So the idea is to use existing Mini/Micro-USB-power supplies.
BTW: I'd prefer to use USB sockets because there you can assume 5V and a 
specific polarity.
Barrel connectors can be reversed or have 12V or even 19V which will damage the 
bq24040.

For the daisy-chaining I have found a plug for µUSB that can be soldered to the 
opposite edge
of the socket so they should fit. I have ordered some sample and then we will 
see...

BR,
Nikolaus

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Xavi Drudis Ferran]

El Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 08:10:12PM +0200, Pičugins Arsenijs deia:
> > I half remember most smartphone batteries include a charger chip
> > and GTA04 batteries do not (the chip is in the phone and should be
> > in the charger).
> 

> That is definitely not the case. 99.999% is that the "charger", that
> is, the thing with a MicroUSB cable you plug into the wall socket,
> only provides constant voltage and some guarantee about max current
> available (say, 5V/2A).

By "the charger" I meant the device Goldelico could build, not a USB power 
supply.


>   The phone has a charging chip inside, which takes 5V and uses it to
>   charge the battery, controlling the charging rate and stopping the
>   charging process when the battery is full. The battery itself
>   doesn't have any provisions for charging inside, aside from a
>   protection circuit that prevents it from overcharging (doesn't
>   have to be there, but is included in 99.99% phones with LiIon
>   batteries), and a thermistor so that the charger can measure
>   temperature of the battery and stop charging when the battery is
>   too hot. Talking about protection circuit, it protects from 1)
>   discharging the battery too deep (because it will get damaged, and
>   in certain circumstances might burst into flames when charged the
>   next time), 2) overcharging the battery (even though the cha rger
>   is not supposed to do that, there's still a small chance, like
>   charger short-circuiting 5V onto its output because of a power
>   surge) and 3) short-circuiting the battery. Again, that is just
>   how phones are built, at least for a decade now.


Ok. Sorry for my disinformation and thank you for explaining. 
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[j]

let the adventure begin!

On November 14, 2017 11:10:12 AM MST, "Pičugins Arsenijs"  
wrote:
>> But are they safe for those batteries ? Did you try them?
>
>I have disassembled some of the "universal springy pins" chargers and
>they do not seem safe, they don't seem to use specialised charging ICs
>and usually use some kind of half-assed passives-based solution that
>ignores the CC/CV cycle requirements for LiIon charging. They could be
>safe to use if you were to throw out all the electronics and replace
>them with your own.
>
>> I half remember most smartphone batteries include a charger chip
>> and GTA04 batteries do not (the chip is in the phone and should be
>> in the charger).
>
>That is definitely not the case. 99.999% is that the "charger", that
>is, the thing with a MicroUSB cable you plug into the wall socket, only
>provides constant voltage and some guarantee about max current
>available (say, 5V/2A). The phone has a charging chip inside, which
>takes 5V and uses it to charge the battery, controlling the charging
>rate and stopping the charging process when the battery is full. The
>battery itself doesn't have any provisions for charging inside, aside
>from a protection circuit that prevents it from overcharging (doesn't
>have to be there, but is included in 99.99% phones with LiIon
>batteries), and a thermistor so that the charger can measure
>temperature of the battery and stop charging when the battery is too
>hot. Talking about protection circuit, it protects from 1) discharging
>the battery too deep (because it will get damaged, and in certain
>circumstances might burst into flames when charged the next time), 2)
>overcharging the battery (even though the cha
>rger is not supposed to do that, there's still a small chance, like
>charger short-circuiting 5V onto its output because of a power surge)
>and 3) short-circuiting the battery. Again, that is just how phones are
>built, at least for a decade now.
>
>-Arsenijs
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Pičugins Arsenijs]

> But are they safe for those batteries ? Did you try them?

I have disassembled some of the "universal springy pins" chargers and they do 
not seem safe, they don't seem to use specialised charging ICs and usually use 
some kind of half-assed passives-based solution that ignores the CC/CV cycle 
requirements for LiIon charging. They could be safe to use if you were to throw 
out all the electronics and replace them with your own.

> I half remember most smartphone batteries include a charger chip
> and GTA04 batteries do not (the chip is in the phone and should be
> in the charger).

That is definitely not the case. 99.999% is that the "charger", that is, the 
thing with a MicroUSB cable you plug into the wall socket, only provides 
constant voltage and some guarantee about max current available (say, 5V/2A). 
The phone has a charging chip inside, which takes 5V and uses it to charge the 
battery, controlling the charging rate and stopping the charging process when 
the battery is full. The battery itself doesn't have any provisions for 
charging inside, aside from a protection circuit that prevents it from 
overcharging (doesn't have to be there, but is included in 99.99% phones 
with LiIon batteries), and a thermistor so that the charger can measure 
temperature of the battery and stop charging when the battery is too hot. 
Talking about protection circuit, it protects from 1) discharging the battery 
too deep (because it will get damaged, and in certain circumstances might burst 
into flames when charged the next time), 2) overcharging the battery (even 
though the cha
 rger is not supposed to do that, there's still a small chance, like charger 
short-circuiting 5V onto its output because of a power surge) and 3) 
short-circuiting the battery. Again, that is just how phones are built, at 
least for a decade now.

-Arsenijs
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[j]

time for some adventure, only one way to find out, buy one or maybe a couple if 
there's more then one kind and give it a go like a mad scientist


On November 14, 2017 10:29:39 AM MST, Xavi Drudis Ferran  
wrote:
>El Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:20:12AM -0700, j deia:
>> you can get universal battery chargers in Ebay, they are spring
>loaded and have charge pins that can be moved side to side to
>accommodate most cell phone batteries 
>>
>
>But are they safe for those batteries ? Did you try them?
>
>I half remember most smartphone batteries include a charger chip 
>and GTA04 batteries do not (the chip is in the phone and should be 
>in the charger). 
>
>But maybe I got it wrong, I remember having read about it lng ago. 
>
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting j (2017-11-14 18:20:12)
> you can get universal battery chargers in Ebay, they are spring loaded 
> and have charge pins that can be moved side to side to accommodate 
> most cell phone batteries

Possibly, but the subthread you replied to was about FST-01 which need 
not accomodate any cell phone batteries ;-)

 - Jonas

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Xavi Drudis Ferran]

El Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 10:20:12AM -0700, j deia:
> you can get universal battery chargers in Ebay, they are spring loaded and 
> have charge pins that can be moved side to side to accommodate most cell 
> phone batteries 
>

But are they safe for those batteries ? Did you try them?

I half remember most smartphone batteries include a charger chip 
and GTA04 batteries do not (the chip is in the phone and should be 
in the charger). 

But maybe I got it wrong, I remember having read about it lng ago. 

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 14.11.2017 um 18:20 schrieb j :
> 
> you can get universal battery chargers in Ebay, they are spring loaded and 
> have charge pins that can be moved side to side to accommodate most cell 
> phone batteries 

I'd say that is not as much fun as it could be :)

> 
> On November 14, 2017 10:00:05 AM MST, Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:
> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-14 17:37:27)
>  Am 13.11.2017 um 12:05 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
>  Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 11:38:07)
>  Hm. I wonder if we can build/design one with multiple plugs so that 
>  one-fits-all.
>  
>  Uhm, I withdraw my promise to buy one, until I understand if it is 
>  gonna be a frankenstein model: I would want something sensible to 
>  survive carrying in a pocket (and the pocket surviving that too).
> 
>  It looks as if the thing can be designed for three different positions 
>  for different USB connectors. The standard USB at one end, the µUSB at 
>  the other and the Mini-USB (GTA04) perpendicular to the board surface 
>  so that it does not stick much away from the GTA04 body. It is like I 
>  already do it for the Qi-Charger.
>  
>  There is no need to install them all three in parallel, so you won't 
>  see the "Frankenstein" :) You just get the same PCB and controller 
>  chip.
> 
> Ah, understood. Sounds good!
> 
> To me, "Frankenstein" means "things sticking out oddly" - so gaping 
> holes for things that _can_ stick out is indeed not, and bonus points if 
> covered up to not be "gaping" :-)
> 
> 
>  I am also now thinking about placing components on both sides of the 
>  PCB to make it smaller than the original FST-01. This is a little more 
>  tricky for production, but if we build batches of let's say 10 or 12 
>  it doesn't really matter.
> 
> I would appreciate a more compact design, even if adding a bit to 
> production costs (or waiting a bit longer for a larger batch to queue 
> up).
> 
>  - Jonas
> 
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[j]

you can get universal battery chargers in Ebay, they are spring loaded and have 
charge pins that can be moved side to side to accommodate most cell phone 
batteries 

On November 14, 2017 10:00:05 AM MST, Jonas Smedegaard  wrote:
>Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-14 17:37:27)
>> Am 13.11.2017 um 12:05 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
>>> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 11:38:07)
 Hm. I wonder if we can build/design one with multiple plugs so that
>
 one-fits-all.
>>> 
>>> Uhm, I withdraw my promise to buy one, until I understand if it is 
>>> gonna be a frankenstein model: I would want something sensible to 
>>> survive carrying in a pocket (and the pocket surviving that too).
>>
>> It looks as if the thing can be designed for three different
>positions 
>> for different USB connectors. The standard USB at one end, the µUSB
>at 
>> the other and the Mini-USB (GTA04) perpendicular to the board surface
>
>> so that it does not stick much away from the GTA04 body. It is like I
>
>> already do it for the Qi-Charger.
>> 
>> There is no need to install them all three in parallel, so you won't 
>> see the "Frankenstein" :) You just get the same PCB and controller 
>> chip.
>
>Ah, understood. Sounds good!
>
>To me, "Frankenstein" means "things sticking out oddly" - so gaping 
>holes for things that _can_ stick out is indeed not, and bonus points
>if 
>covered up to not be "gaping" :-)
>
>
>> I am also now thinking about placing components on both sides of the 
>> PCB to make it smaller than the original FST-01. This is a little
>more 
>> tricky for production, but if we build batches of let's say 10 or 12 
>> it doesn't really matter.
>
>I would appreciate a more compact design, even if adding a bit to 
>production costs (or waiting a bit longer for a larger batch to queue 
>up).
>
> - Jonas
>
>-- 
> * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
> * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
>
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-14 17:37:27)
> Am 13.11.2017 um 12:05 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
>> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 11:38:07)
>>> Hm. I wonder if we can build/design one with multiple plugs so that 
>>> one-fits-all.
>> 
>> Uhm, I withdraw my promise to buy one, until I understand if it is 
>> gonna be a frankenstein model: I would want something sensible to 
>> survive carrying in a pocket (and the pocket surviving that too).
>
> It looks as if the thing can be designed for three different positions 
> for different USB connectors. The standard USB at one end, the µUSB at 
> the other and the Mini-USB (GTA04) perpendicular to the board surface 
> so that it does not stick much away from the GTA04 body. It is like I 
> already do it for the Qi-Charger.
> 
> There is no need to install them all three in parallel, so you won't 
> see the "Frankenstein" :) You just get the same PCB and controller 
> chip.

Ah, understood. Sounds good!

To me, "Frankenstein" means "things sticking out oddly" - so gaping 
holes for things that _can_ stick out is indeed not, and bonus points if 
covered up to not be "gaping" :-)


> I am also now thinking about placing components on both sides of the 
> PCB to make it smaller than the original FST-01. This is a little more 
> tricky for production, but if we build batches of let's say 10 or 12 
> it doesn't really matter.

I would appreciate a more compact design, even if adding a bit to 
production costs (or waiting a bit longer for a larger batch to queue 
up).

 - Jonas

-- 
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Jonas,

> Am 13.11.2017 um 12:05 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
> 
> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 11:38:07)
>> 
>>> Am 13.11.2017 um 11:31 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
>>> 
>>> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 08:33:45)
 Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to 
> buy one.
 
 I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to 
 prepare for producing some clone...
 
 Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for 
 tiny quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to 
 provide permanent supply.
 
 What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected 
 to a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
 
 One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
 
 Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so 
 that it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
 
 Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does 
 someone have an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
>>> 
>>> I would buy a microUSB model if made - and I believe it could be made to 
>>> work with standard Android for those using F-droid, and therefore have 
>>> potential users among those too.
>> 
>> Ah, yes. Many Android devices have an µUSB OTG port.
>> 
>> Hm. I wonder if we can build/design one with multiple plugs so that 
>> one-fits-all.
> 
> Uhm, I withdraw my promise to buy one, until I understand if it is gonna 
> be a frankenstein model: I would want something sensible to survive 
> carrying in a pocket (and the pocket surviving that too).

It looks as if the thing can be designed for three different positions
for different USB connectors. The standard USB at one end, the µUSB at the other
and the Mini-USB (GTA04) perpendicular to the board surface so that it does not
stick much away from the GTA04 body. It is like I already do it for the 
Qi-Charger.

There is no need to install them all three in parallel, so you won't see the
"Frankenstein" :) You just get the same PCB and controller chip.

I am also now thinking about placing components on both sides of the PCB
to make it smaller than the original FST-01. This is a little more tricky
for production, but if we build batches of let's say 10 or 12 it doesn't
really matter.

BR,
Nikolaus
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Marek,
this are nice findings!

Did I understand all that correctly that one just needs some 3.3V compatible 
UART plus host software?

The FST-01 hardware has three connector pads for
* GND
* SWCLK
* SWDIO

where it is expected to connect the ST-link. These pin names look a little more 
like I2C than UART.
Or are they dual-function?

And do we need to pull up/down some other pin to enable this programming 
protocol?

Generally I'd like to avoid adding costly hardware which is rarely used.
One thing is that it may well make the cost go up to 50€ per key...
And the other is that it needs space making the key bigger.

BR,
Nikolaus

> Am 14.11.2017 um 13:16 schrieb Belisko Marek :
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Belisko Marek  
> wrote:
>> Hi Nikolaus,
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:12 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi Marek,
>>> 
 Am 13.11.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Belisko Marek :
 
 On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek  
 wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller 
>  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>>> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>>> 
>>> "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
>>> 
 Hi Paul,
 
> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
> 
> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
>>> 
>>> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. 
>>> yubikey.
>>> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary 
>>> interface
>>> hardware
>> 
>> I have checked what they have:
>> 
>> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
>> 
>> 
>> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor Micro-USB. 
>> So it
>> needs a proper adapter.
> 
> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:
> 
> https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/
> 
> It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and 
> FST-01.
 
 Interesting reading!
 
 To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
 enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...
 
 Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the 
 fastest one:
 
 https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png
 
 So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by us 
 at
 a reasonable price.
>> 
>>> 
>>> I agree.
>>> 
>>> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to
>>> buy one.
>> 
>> I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to 
>> prepare for
>> producing some clone...
>> 
>> Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for tiny
>> quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to provide
>> permanent supply.
>> 
>> What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected to
>> a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
>> 
>> One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
>> 
>> Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so 
>> that
>> it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
>> 
>> Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does someone 
>> have
>> an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
>> 
>> USB-C makes no sense IMHO, because then a much faster processor with 
>> USB3 speed
>> should be used... This would be a completely different project.
>> 
>> So what can be the next steps?
>> * I await your comments and comments about being interested
>> * maybe someone should take care about the programming procedures
> I have experience with programming stm32 (there exists stm32uart
> utility which can burn SW) but in this case I'm unsure.
> Does stm32 boot from external spi flash or external spi flash is used
> for something else?
 In meantime I found that it's possible via ST-link only:
 http://wiki.seeed.cc/FST-01/
 also here: 
 http://www.gniibe.org/memo/development/fst-01/dongle/fst-01-swd-connection.html
 so if we do new design maybe would be good to add for user possibility
 to update FW.
>>> 
>>> Nice finding!
>>> 
>>> Well, this would mean that we have to clone the ST-link device 

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Belisko Marek]

Hi Nikolaus,

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:12 PM, H. Nikolaus Schaller
 wrote:
> Hi Marek,
>
>> Am 13.11.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Belisko Marek :
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek  
>> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
>>> wrote:
 Hi all,

> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>
> "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>>> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
>>>
>>> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
>
> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. 
> yubikey.
> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary interface
> hardware

 I have checked what they have:

 https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
 

 It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor Micro-USB. So 
 it
 needs a proper adapter.
>>>
>>> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:
>>>
>>> https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/
>>>
>>> It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and 
>>> FST-01.
>>
>> Interesting reading!
>>
>> To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
>> enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...
>>
>> Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the 
>> fastest one:
>>
>> https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png
>>
>> So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by us at
>> a reasonable price.

>
> I agree.
>
> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to
> buy one.

 I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to prepare 
 for
 producing some clone...

 Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for tiny
 quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to provide
 permanent supply.

 What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected to
 a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.

 One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:

 Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so that
 it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?

 Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does someone 
 have
 an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?

 USB-C makes no sense IMHO, because then a much faster processor with USB3 
 speed
 should be used... This would be a completely different project.

 So what can be the next steps?
 * I await your comments and comments about being interested
 * maybe someone should take care about the programming procedures
>>> I have experience with programming stm32 (there exists stm32uart
>>> utility which can burn SW) but in this case I'm unsure.
>>> Does stm32 boot from external spi flash or external spi flash is used
>>> for something else?
>> In meantime I found that it's possible via ST-link only:
>> http://wiki.seeed.cc/FST-01/
>> also here: 
>> http://www.gniibe.org/memo/development/fst-01/dongle/fst-01-swd-connection.html
>> so if we do new design maybe would be good to add for user possibility
>> to update FW.
>
> Nice finding!
>
> Well, this would mean that we have to clone the ST-link device (where I have 
> not
> yet an idea what is inside) and add another USB socket.
>
> But there seem to be clones:
>
> https://www.gearbest.com/development-boards/pp_62989.html?currency=EUR=2275155=CjwKCAiAoqXQBRA8EiwAIIOWstP9pf8EWlN1SaHyGVUZzDDjkmMVt329W6Misb_BTv_HxOqSr28UMxoCQ_8QAvD_BwE
>
> Hm. Well, the ST-Link device is another Microcontroller with built-in 
> firmware.
> So how do we flash that :)
OK chicken-egg problem ;). I'm not sure which interface is using
stlink but for sure I know that stm32 can be programmed vie serial
interface using : https://github.com/jsnyder/stm32ld
so maybe it will be necessary to have connector for update process (or
even bettre to usb usb serial converter on board and other usb port to
flash software). BTW we have only schematics do we have also SW which
will run in stm32?
>
> BR,
> Nikolaus
>
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marek

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Xavi Drudis Ferran]

El Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:36:16AM +0100, H. Nikolaus Schaller deia:
> 
> It works completely without case... In the spirit of tinkerers :)
> 
> But a printed case is welcome and easy: my idea is to use the same
> shape as the GTA04 board so a spare Openmoko case would suffice.
> And there had been 3D data around to print such cases.
>

Well, I don't care about the PCB shape. This is as good for me as any other. 
A new case should be easier if the PCB was rectangular, just measure where the
connectors go, I guess? 

The only advantage I can think of for having the same PCB shape as
GTA04 is that with some case or something acting as spacers you could
maybe stack 2 or 3 chargers with their batteries and the phone on top,
and save desk space w.r.t. horizontally placed chargers (which was my
first thought). Not terribly worth spending any time on, possibly. But
vertically stacking chargers would make inserting and removing
batteries phisically more difficult, wouldn't it? It is desirable not
to have to unchain the chargers to replace batteries in them. But if
the vertical space between chargers is large enough to comfortably
insert and remove batteries, the daisy chain connectors won't touch
without some extra complication ?

> 
> 800mA each. You just need a sufficiently powerful 5V supply for each battery.
>

That would be doable. For me it would be better to have a single 5V, 2A  or 3A
for 2 or 3 batteries, or whatever, than needing 2 or 3 supplies or a power hub. 
If a non USB connector helps reducing the wall sockets , cables or suppliers
needed, then that'd be a good option. 

> That is all inside the charger chip. It trickle charges if needed and turns
> automatically off if battery is full. I am quite sure that Texas Instruments 
> and
> their customers have already thought of everything when designing these 
> chips...
> They are used in millions of digital cameras, gps devices, smartphones etc.
> where user's don't care about the health of batteries.
>

Great.
 
> Maybe if you have a notebook with multiple USB sockets it would only
> need to carry extra cables.
>

I don't know about others, but I tend to have the USB sockets I need 
(or sometimes less). So I still would need some dedicated hub for charging, 
most likely. 
 
> There are also USB power supply devices like this (I don't know if this
> specific one is good): https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13915
>

Yes maybe stock some of these or similar to simplify buying with the charger. 
It'd still be simpler for me the more integrated it could be, but it's 
not really necessary, just convenient. 
 
> > 
> > It's ok but if something could be done to eliminate components it would be 
> > even more convenient. Remember those AAA rechargeable battery chargers ?
> > They have several slots (at least 2) and you don't need many of them. Some
> > plug directly to a wall socket and you don't even need a plug. This is 
> > asking too much, but maybe some reduction in components is still possible.
> 
> Well, there aren't many to be reduced. You always need a battery connector
> for each slot and a charger chip for each battery (batteries may be 
> differently
> filled and become full at different times).
>

I may have misused the term. I didn't mean electronic components, just
"solution components".  Meaning gadgets on my desk or in my suitcase.
Individual pieces taking space and (a very little) complexity when using it.
Even if it is a tinkerphone, I don't think people love to tinker when 
doing vegetative stuff like charging. You just want something that doesn't 
give you a badly connected cable 20% of the time, or complicates 
cleaning the dust or ... But maybe it's just me. 
 
> So the only thing you can share is the connector to some wall outlet and
> the wall charger.
>

just this only sharing would be attractive. 
  
> > 
> > Maybe an optional version with more battery places or maybe some male
> > and female connector in opposite sides so you could daisy chain 2 or 3
> > of those chargers side by side without needing cables and without a
> > powered hub
> 
> That looks like an interesting idea!
>

Side to side ? or stacked one in top of another ? 
can you daisy chain the phone too (easier if the connector is USB) ? 
 
> > (but then it's no longer USB 2?).
> 
> Well, charging doesn't need to be 100% compliant. It can be seen as "just
> another connector type" for a 5V 2A power supply.
> 

Ah, ok, I thought there might be some advantage to USB compliancee
about possible compatibility with cables or connectors or something.

But you could also daisy chain with barrel connectors if that helps at
all (in case the total power wasn't feasible for USB and took a
dedicated supply or something). USB seems preferable if possible.

> Maybe it should be possible to limit charging current to 500mA each so
> that you can chain up to 4 units with a 2A supply.
> 

Well, for me charging slowly is usually no problem if I can leave all
batteries I need to charge 

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Jonas,

> Am 13.11.2017 um 12:05 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
> 
> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 11:38:07)
>> 
>>> Am 13.11.2017 um 11:31 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
>>> 
>>> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 08:33:45)
 Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to 
> buy one.
 
 I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to 
 prepare for producing some clone...
 
 Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for 
 tiny quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to 
 provide permanent supply.
 
 What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected 
 to a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
 
 One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
 
 Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so 
 that it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
 
 Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does 
 someone have an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
>>> 
>>> I would buy a microUSB model if made - and I believe it could be made to 
>>> work with standard Android for those using F-droid, and therefore have 
>>> potential users among those too.
>> 
>> Ah, yes. Many Android devices have an µUSB OTG port.
>> 
>> Hm. I wonder if we can build/design one with multiple plugs so that 
>> one-fits-all.
> 
> Uhm, I withdraw my promise to buy one, until I understand if it is gonna 
> be a frankenstein model: I would want something sensible to survive 
> carrying in a pocket (and the pocket surviving that too).

Maybe we can just have one PCB where we can easily install this or that
connector (on either end). This would simplify production but you can
still get one with µUSB socket.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Marek,

> Am 13.11.2017 um 11:45 schrieb Belisko Marek :
> 
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek  
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
>> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
 Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
 
 "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
 
> Hi Paul,
> 
>> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
>> 
>> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
 
 i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. 
 yubikey.
 At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary interface
 hardware
>>> 
>>> I have checked what they have:
>>> 
>>> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor Micro-USB. So 
>>> it
>>> needs a proper adapter.
>> 
>> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:
>> 
>> https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/
>> 
>> It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and FST-01.
> 
> Interesting reading!
> 
> To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
> enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...
> 
> Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the 
> fastest one:
> 
> https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png
> 
> So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by us at
> a reasonable price.
>>> 
 
 I agree.
 
 I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to
 buy one.
>>> 
>>> I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to prepare 
>>> for
>>> producing some clone...
>>> 
>>> Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for tiny
>>> quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to provide
>>> permanent supply.
>>> 
>>> What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected to
>>> a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
>>> 
>>> One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
>>> 
>>> Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so that
>>> it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
>>> 
>>> Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does someone have
>>> an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
>>> 
>>> USB-C makes no sense IMHO, because then a much faster processor with USB3 
>>> speed
>>> should be used... This would be a completely different project.
>>> 
>>> So what can be the next steps?
>>> * I await your comments and comments about being interested
>>> * maybe someone should take care about the programming procedures
>> I have experience with programming stm32 (there exists stm32uart
>> utility which can burn SW) but in this case I'm unsure.
>> Does stm32 boot from external spi flash or external spi flash is used
>> for something else?
> In meantime I found that it's possible via ST-link only:
> http://wiki.seeed.cc/FST-01/
> also here: 
> http://www.gniibe.org/memo/development/fst-01/dongle/fst-01-swd-connection.html
> so if we do new design maybe would be good to add for user possibility
> to update FW.

Nice finding!

Well, this would mean that we have to clone the ST-link device (where I have not
yet an idea what is inside) and add another USB socket.

But there seem to be clones:

https://www.gearbest.com/development-boards/pp_62989.html?currency=EUR=2275155=CjwKCAiAoqXQBRA8EiwAIIOWstP9pf8EWlN1SaHyGVUZzDDjkmMVt329W6Misb_BTv_HxOqSr28UMxoCQ_8QAvD_BwE

Hm. Well, the ST-Link device is another Microcontroller with built-in firmware.
So how do we flash that :)

BR,
Nikolaus

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 11:38:07)
> 
> > Am 13.11.2017 um 11:31 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
> > 
> > Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 08:33:45)
> >> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
> >>> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to 
> >>> buy one.
> >> 
> >> I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to 
> >> prepare for producing some clone...
> >> 
> >> Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for 
> >> tiny quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to 
> >> provide permanent supply.
> >> 
> >> What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected 
> >> to a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
> >> 
> >> One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
> >> 
> >> Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so 
> >> that it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
> >> 
> >> Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does 
> >> someone have an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
> > 
> > I would buy a microUSB model if made - and I believe it could be made to 
> > work with standard Android for those using F-droid, and therefore have 
> > potential users among those too.
> 
> Ah, yes. Many Android devices have an µUSB OTG port.
> 
> Hm. I wonder if we can build/design one with multiple plugs so that 
> one-fits-all.

Uhm, I withdraw my promise to buy one, until I understand if it is gonna 
be a frankenstein model: I would want something sensible to survive 
carrying in a pocket (and the pocket surviving that too).


 - Jonas

-- 
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Belisko Marek]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Belisko Marek  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>>>
>>> "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
>>>
 Hi Paul,

> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
>
> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
>>>
>>> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. yubikey.
>>> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary interface
>>> hardware
>>
>> I have checked what they have:
>>
>> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
>> 
>>
>> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor Micro-USB. So it
>> needs a proper adapter.
>
> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/
>
> It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and FST-01.

 Interesting reading!

 To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
 enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...

 Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the 
 fastest one:

 https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png

 So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by us at
 a reasonable price.
>>
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to
>>> buy one.
>>
>> I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to prepare for
>> producing some clone...
>>
>> Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for tiny
>> quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to provide
>> permanent supply.
>>
>> What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected to
>> a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
>>
>> One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
>>
>> Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so that
>> it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
>>
>> Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does someone have
>> an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
>>
>> USB-C makes no sense IMHO, because then a much faster processor with USB3 
>> speed
>> should be used... This would be a completely different project.
>>
>> So what can be the next steps?
>> * I await your comments and comments about being interested
>> * maybe someone should take care about the programming procedures
> I have experience with programming stm32 (there exists stm32uart
> utility which can burn SW) but in this case I'm unsure.
> Does stm32 boot from external spi flash or external spi flash is used
> for something else?
In meantime I found that it's possible via ST-link only:
http://wiki.seeed.cc/FST-01/
also here: 
http://www.gniibe.org/memo/development/fst-01/dongle/fst-01-swd-connection.html
so if we do new design maybe would be good to add for user possibility
to update FW.
>> * then I can open a shop entry for preordering
>> * I can prepare production data
>> * and order 2-3 samples and have them built
>> * those samples go to those doing the first preorders
>> * things would be tested/debugged
>> * after that it is possible to provide permanent service for the community 
>> until components become EOL
>>
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
>> ___
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>> http://www.tinkerphones.org
>
BR,

marek



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-
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Freelance Developer

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Tel: +421 915 052 184
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Belisko Marek]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 8:33 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller  
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>>
>> "H. Nikolaus Schaller"  writes:
>>
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
 Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :

 On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
>>
>> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. yubikey.
>> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary interface
>> hardware
>
> I have checked what they have:
>
> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
> 
>
> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor Micro-USB. So it
> needs a proper adapter.

 There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:

 https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/

 It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and FST-01.
>>>
>>> Interesting reading!
>>>
>>> To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
>>> enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...
>>>
>>> Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the 
>>> fastest one:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
>>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png
>>>
>>> So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by us at
>>> a reasonable price.
>
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to
>> buy one.
>
> I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to prepare for
> producing some clone...
>
> Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for tiny
> quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to provide
> permanent supply.
>
> What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected to
> a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
>
> One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
>
> Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so that
> it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
>
> Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does someone have
> an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
>
> USB-C makes no sense IMHO, because then a much faster processor with USB3 
> speed
> should be used... This would be a completely different project.
>
> So what can be the next steps?
> * I await your comments and comments about being interested
> * maybe someone should take care about the programming procedures
I have experience with programming stm32 (there exists stm32uart
utility which can burn SW) but in this case I'm unsure.
Does stm32 boot from external spi flash or external spi flash is used
for something else?
> * then I can open a shop entry for preordering
> * I can prepare production data
> * and order 2-3 samples and have them built
> * those samples go to those doing the first preorders
> * things would be tested/debugged
> * after that it is possible to provide permanent service for the community 
> until components become EOL
>
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> ___
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> Community@tinkerphones.org
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> http://www.tinkerphones.org

BR,

marek

-- 
as simple and primitive as possible
-
Marek Belisko - OPEN-NANDRA
Freelance Developer

Ruska Nova Ves 219 | Presov, 08005 Slovak Republic
Tel: +421 915 052 184
skype: marekwhite
twitter: #opennandra
web: http://open-nandra.com
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 13.11.2017 um 11:31 schrieb Jonas Smedegaard :
> 
> Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 08:33:45)
>> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>>> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to 
>>> buy one.
>> 
>> I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to 
>> prepare for producing some clone...
>> 
>> Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for 
>> tiny quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to 
>> provide permanent supply.
>> 
>> What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected 
>> to a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
>> 
>> One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
>> 
>> Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so 
>> that it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
>> 
>> Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does 
>> someone have an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?
> 
> I would buy a microUSB model if made - and I believe it could be made to 
> work with standard Android for those using F-droid, and therefore have 
> potential users among those too.

Ah, yes. Many Android devices have an µUSB OTG port.

Hm. I wonder if we can build/design one with multiple plugs so that 
one-fits-all.

BR,
Nikolaus

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Xavi,

> Am 13.11.2017 um 10:58 schrieb Xavi Drudis Ferran :
> 
> El Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 09:41:44AM +0100, H. Nikolaus Schaller deia:
>> 
>> I would like it as well!
>> 
> 
> :) 
> 
>> And I have a simple idea how to build one. I still use one of the original
>> GTA04A1 prototype boards where just some components were soldered on,
>> incl. the battery connector. I use it to power a GTA04 from battery
>> without covering the OMAP processor. It is not a charger (there is
>> no charger chip installed), but used as a power bank...
>> 
>> It looks like this (the board on the left is the GTA04A1):
>> 
>> 
> 
> Good, possibly someone can design a ·D printed case or something, but it 
> would already be something. 

It works completely without case... In the spirit of tinkerers :)

But a printed case is welcome and easy: my idea is to use the same
shape as the GTA04 board so a spare Openmoko case would suffice.
And there had been 3D data around to print such cases.

> 
>> 
>> 
>> Now, the idea is to provide a PCB very similar to this, but have:
>> * the correct spring loaded battery connector
>> * some metal handles (cut a copper staple and solder to the board) to 
>> keep the battery in place
>> * an Mini-USB socket so that you can connect to a standard wall charger or a 
>> PC or hub
> 
> This is good, as long as it brings enough power (surely for charging one 
> battery
> it will, but for 2 or 3 ? )

800mA each. You just need a sufficiently powerful 5V supply for each battery.

> 
>> * it should even be possible to strap together with the GTA04 Qi-Charger:)
> 
> Good, I'm not interested in inductive charging, but why not ?
> 
>> * a LiIon charger chip that can run a charging cycle w/o any CPU support
> 
> And maybe take care of the charged battery if left there for longer
> than needed ?  Would it need to eventually recharge ? Maybe that's too
> complex and depends on user wishes so best left out ... ?

That is all inside the charger chip. It trickle charges if needed and turns
automatically off if battery is full. I am quite sure that Texas Instruments and
their customers have already thought of everything when designing these chips...
They are used in millions of digital cameras, gps devices, smartphones etc.
where user's don't care about the health of batteries.

> 
>> * some LED(s) to show the charging status
>> * is likely ~20€ per unit
>> 
>> I think you can then just take two or three of those and connect to some
>> (old) externally powered hub to charge several batteries in parallel.
>> 
> 
> That would be better than what I have now (nothing). But it would
> still require
> 
>   2 o 3 of these units
> 
>   1 power hub
>   1 hub power source 
>   3 or 4 cables 

If you already have it, it would be fine.

> 
>   some case
> 
> Doable at home, not so much to take to a hotel, I guess...

Ok, I see.

Maybe if you have a notebook with multiple USB sockets it would only
need to carry extra cables.

There are also USB power supply devices like this (I don't know if this
specific one is good): https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13915

> 
> It's ok but if something could be done to eliminate components it would be 
> even more convenient. Remember those AAA rechargeable battery chargers ?
> They have several slots (at least 2) and you don't need many of them. Some
> plug directly to a wall socket and you don't even need a plug. This is 
> asking too much, but maybe some reduction in components is still possible.

Well, there aren't many to be reduced. You always need a battery connector
for each slot and a charger chip for each battery (batteries may be differently
filled and become full at different times).

And you need a PCB space at least as large as each battery.

So the only thing you can share is the connector to some wall outlet and
the wall charger.
 
> 
> Maybe an optional version with more battery places or maybe some male
> and female connector in opposite sides so you could daisy chain 2 or 3
> of those chargers side by side without needing cables and without a
> powered hub

That looks like an interesting idea!

> (but then it's no longer USB 2?).

Well, charging doesn't need to be 100% compliant. It can be seen as "just
another connector type" for a 5V 2A power supply.

Maybe it should be possible to limit charging current to 500mA each so
that you can chain up to 4 units with a 2A supply.

> 
>> 
>> Would this fit your needs? Would others be interested as well? Additional 
>> ideas?
>> 
> 
> It would, and I think I would get 2 or 3 of them if there isn't a more
> integrated option. But if possible I would pay more than this total
> price for a more integrated option.

Well, there is nothing to save in a more integrated version. Space
goes up linearily and number of components as well. The only wasted
space is that a GTA04 shaped board is a little bigger than it would
need to be.

So with the daisy-chaining idea (if it can be done) there is maximum
flexibility (i.e. you 

Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting H. Nikolaus Schaller (2017-11-13 08:33:45)
> Am 04.11.2017 um 22:17 schrieb Niels :
>> I have been wanting a FST-01 for a while, but not found any place to 
>> buy one.
>
> I have studied the schematics and it will take less than 1 day to 
> prepare for producing some clone...
>
> Cost is also reasonable, e.g. something below 30€ seems feasible for 
> tiny quantities (if produced in batches of 10). So it is possible to 
> provide permanent supply.
>
> What I understood is that it needs some flashing tool to be connected 
> to a jumper. Maybe someone can elaborate this.
>
> One thing is to be discussed about the USB interface:
>
> Should we keep the USB-A plug or try to replace it by an Mini-USB-A so 
> that it can be directly plugged into a GTA0x?
>
> Or even 3 variants with Standard-USB, MiniUSB and µUSB? Or does 
> someone have an idea if multiple sockets are feasible?

I would buy a microUSB model if made - and I believe it could be made to 
work with standard Android for those using F-droid, and therefore have 
potential users among those too.


 - Jonas

-- 
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 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H . Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Xavi,

> Am 11.11.2017 um 13:12 schrieb Xavi Drudis Ferran :
> 
> El Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 06:17:11PM +0100, H. Nikolaus Schaller deia:
>> So I'd be interested in which products (or services) you as
>> a member of the tinkerphones community would like to see. So
> 
> A battery charger ?
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I keep getting too little time out of my GTA04
> battery.  I carry a few battery spares and that's enough, but then I
> have to charge several of them, and I only have the GTA04 to do it. I
> charge the one in the phone, when it's full, swith it off, change
> battery, charge that one, and again. It takes a while for each and
> often I forget I have to change the batery and when I need them they
> are not charged.  I'd like to have a charger where I can put 2 or 3
> batteries and forget about them until later to just pick them up
> charged.
> 
> I guess it's low tech and boring, but it'd be useful and I'd like to
> buy it. I'm not sure if someone else would like it. 

I would like it as well!

And I have a simple idea how to build one. I still use one of the original
GTA04A1 prototype boards where just some components were soldered on,
incl. the battery connector. I use it to power a GTA04 from battery
without covering the OMAP processor. It is not a charger (there is
no charger chip installed), but used as a power bank...

It looks like this (the board on the left is the GTA04A1):




Now, the idea is to provide a PCB very similar to this, but have:
* the correct spring loaded battery connector
* some metal handles (cut a copper staple and solder to the board) to keep 
the battery in place
* an Mini-USB socket so that you can connect to a standard wall charger or a PC 
or hub
* it should even be possible to strap together with the GTA04 Qi-Charger:)
* a LiIon charger chip that can run a charging cycle w/o any CPU support
* some LED(s) to show the charging status
* is likely ~20€ per unit

I think you can then just take two or three of those and connect to some
(old) externally powered hub to charge several batteries in parallel.


Would this fit your needs? Would others be interested as well? Additional ideas?


Generally, this discussion has already turned out to be very fruitful!

We already have identified as not difficult to provide:
* Qi-charger kit for GTA04 (working prototype already presented a while ago: 
https://twitter.com/goldelico/status/815234456126689280 )
* FST-01 crypto-key clone (Big-USB or Mini-USB plug for GTA04)
* standalone GTA0x battery charger for HF08 batteries

More ideas are welcome! Make GTA0x great again :-P

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Paul,

> Am 05.11.2017 um 00:15 schrieb Paul Boddie :
> 
> On Friday 3. November 2017 09.21.37 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> 
>> And more generally, this is in the area of software we offer for free and
>> not new hardware / gadgets / services we could put in a shop.
>> 
>> Any wishes for gadgets, accessories, tools, breakout boards, pocket bones,
>> Pyra-phone, OMAP5 CPU board, i.MX6 board, Qi charger for GTA01/02/04, ...?
> 
> I know you've been doing work for the Pyra project, and I guess that the 
> OMAP5 
> board is what you were calling "Letux Cortex 15"

yes. It is a tiny OMAP5 SoC board with 2 or 4GB RAM and ca. 32 GB eMMC and
thrww board-to-board connectors. It has USB(3), SATA, I2C, HDMI, MIPI and
audio.

There is a plan to offer it separately with enough documentation. But first we
need to get the Pyra into production.

> and that there was also a 
> "Letux Cortex 8" board. So it would be interesting to know what your plans 
> would be for those.

Well, the Letux Cortex 8 is a tiny AM3358 based Linux board. I had planned
to spin and offer a second version of it, but now the PocketBone came out and
is essentially the same thing (except that I had planned for eMMC). And the
PocketBone comes at an unbeatable low price so that I can't even get the
components cheaper.

So there is no future for the Letux Cortex 8 board and I have added the 
PocketBone
to the shop: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Product=1057

The Letux-kernel for the Letux Cortex 8 works out of the box for the 
PocketBeagle.

> 
> To an extent, I think interest is growing in modular solutions. People try 
> and 
> shoehorn things like the Raspberry Pi Zero into things like the ZeroPhone 
> (mentioned on this list before). Fairphone has adopted some modularity and 
> recently advertised their camera upgrade, although we all know that it is 
> possible to do the same with the GTA01/02/04. I suppose that products like 
> PocketBeagle and Raspberry Pi Zero (and all the USB stick devices) are almost 
> like steps along a road towards discovering what usable and interchangeable 
> hardware modules might be like.
> 
> There are also initiatives like EOMA68 (proceeding rather slowly, but 
> hopefully approaching completion of its first phase) which try and package up 
> functionality into something compact and convenient. Although such things 
> must 
> compromise on performance, they potentially let people think about the other 
> aspects of devices rather than having to struggle with making a mainboard 
> every time, only then to have to struggle with other tasks that are also 
> difficult, like making the casing and getting the ergonomics right.

Well, in my experience it is easier to modularize on schematics level and have
individual boards than designing a perfectly stable and long-lasting interface.
EOMA68 seems to be outdated to me before it is published.

> 
> Of course, modules aren't everything. It is arguably better to have complete 
> products with particular purposes in mind as well. Things like "plug 
> computers" or "desktop-side servers" or "storage appliances" seem fairly 
> popular. Having got myself a MIPS Creator CI20 partly to motivate experiments 
> with the Ingenic SoCs, the Letux 400 Minibook, and so on, it makes me wonder 
> whether most single-board computers are as half-finished and as awkward to 
> set 
> up correctly as that one.

Well, they are more like high-level evaluation boards. Most of these boards are
supported by the silicon vendors of the SoC. Their purpose is to make it known
to a broader public (of engineers). So the SBC doesn't need to be perfect for
everything.

> I think there are plenty of opportunities for hardware products that are well-
> designed and just get the job done.

Indeed. And we have all tools to get hardware done.

BR,
Nikolaus

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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[Paul Boddie]

On Friday 3. November 2017 09.21.37 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
> And more generally, this is in the area of software we offer for free and
> not new hardware / gadgets / services we could put in a shop.
> 
> Any wishes for gadgets, accessories, tools, breakout boards, pocket bones,
> Pyra-phone, OMAP5 CPU board, i.MX6 board, Qi charger for GTA01/02/04, ...?

I know you've been doing work for the Pyra project, and I guess that the OMAP5 
board is what you were calling "Letux Cortex 15" and that there was also a 
"Letux Cortex 8" board. So it would be interesting to know what your plans 
would be for those.

To an extent, I think interest is growing in modular solutions. People try and 
shoehorn things like the Raspberry Pi Zero into things like the ZeroPhone 
(mentioned on this list before). Fairphone has adopted some modularity and 
recently advertised their camera upgrade, although we all know that it is 
possible to do the same with the GTA01/02/04. I suppose that products like 
PocketBeagle and Raspberry Pi Zero (and all the USB stick devices) are almost 
like steps along a road towards discovering what usable and interchangeable 
hardware modules might be like.

There are also initiatives like EOMA68 (proceeding rather slowly, but 
hopefully approaching completion of its first phase) which try and package up 
functionality into something compact and convenient. Although such things must 
compromise on performance, they potentially let people think about the other 
aspects of devices rather than having to struggle with making a mainboard 
every time, only then to have to struggle with other tasks that are also 
difficult, like making the casing and getting the ergonomics right.

Of course, modules aren't everything. It is arguably better to have complete 
products with particular purposes in mind as well. Things like "plug 
computers" or "desktop-side servers" or "storage appliances" seem fairly 
popular. Having got myself a MIPS Creator CI20 partly to motivate experiments 
with the Ingenic SoCs, the Letux 400 Minibook, and so on, it makes me wonder 
whether most single-board computers are as half-finished and as awkward to set 
up correctly as that one.

I think there are plenty of opportunities for hardware products that are well-
designed and just get the job done.

Paul
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 03.11.2017 um 19:41 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller :
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
>> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
>> 
>> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
 
 i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. yubikey.
 At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary interface
 hardware
>>> 
>>> I have checked what they have:
>>> 
>>> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor Micro-USB. So it
>>> needs a proper adapter.
>> 
>> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:
>> 
>> https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/
>> 
>> It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and FST-01.
> 
> Interesting reading!
> 
> To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
> enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...
> 
> Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the fastest 
> one:
> 
> https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png
> 
> So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by us at
> a reasonable price.

And design a variant with Mini-USB plug for the OTG port of GTA0x devices...

> 
>> 
>>> Or we build our own simple Mini-USB-key with some tiny microcontroller for
>>> that purpose. But we lack certification and cloud integration.
>>> 
>>> Is there a project that already goes into that direction? AFAIR there was
>>> Anelok by Werner Almesberger but it had a different focus.
>> 
>> Anelok is largely concerned with password management:
>> 
>> https://anelok.com/
> 
> Ah, yes. And it has some keys, a display and even a battery - which is
> all not required for an USB key encryption processor.
> 
>> 
>> There are quite a few projects targeting this particular area (and also key 
>> management) just on Crowd Supply alone:
>> 
>> https://www.crowdsupply.com/third-pin/pastilda (awaiting shipping)
>> https://www.crowdsupply.com/nth-dimension/signet (funded, in manufacturing)
>> https://www.crowdsupply.com/duly-co/opentpm (campaign not yet started)
>> https://www.crowdsupply.com/soniktech/zamek (campaign not yet started)
>> 
>> Paul
> 
> So the FST-01 looks in total like a good candidate! Who agrees, who disagrees?
> 
> BR and thanks,
> Nikolaus
> 
> 
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Re: [Tinkerphones] New tinkerphone gadgets in Goldelico shop?

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Paul,

> Am 03.11.2017 um 13:06 schrieb Paul Boddie :
> 
> On Friday 3. November 2017 10.54.44 H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> Am 03.11.2017 um 10:32 schrieb Thomas Munker :
>>> 
>>> i would like to see some small cryptographic hardware, like eg. yubikey.
>>> At best easy interfaceable to gta02/gta04 or with necessary interface
>>> hardware
>> 
>> I have checked what they have:
>> 
>> https://www.yubico.com/product/yubikey-4-series/
>> 
>> 
>> It seems they offer USB-A and USB-C. So neither Mini nor Micro-USB. So it
>> needs a proper adapter.
> 
> There is an article on LWN.net about these devices and others:
> 
> https://lwn.net/Articles/736231/
> 
> It covers the Yubikey NEO and Yubikey 4 plus the Nitrokey Pro and FST-01.

Interesting reading!

To me it looks as if it would best fit our community to simply build
enough FST-01 units, so that they are not out of stock...

Everything is said to be free and open, even if the device isn't the fastest 
one:

https://github.com/vinaebizs/fst-01
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SeeedDocument/FST-01/master/img/Fst-01-schematic.png

So it looks not very difficult to have them produced and stocked by us at
a reasonable price.

> 
>> Or we build our own simple Mini-USB-key with some tiny microcontroller for
>> that purpose. But we lack certification and cloud integration.
>> 
>> Is there a project that already goes into that direction? AFAIR there was
>> Anelok by Werner Almesberger but it had a different focus.
> 
> Anelok is largely concerned with password management:
> 
> https://anelok.com/

Ah, yes. And it has some keys, a display and even a battery - which is
all not required for an USB key encryption processor.

> 
> There are quite a few projects targeting this particular area (and also key 
> management) just on Crowd Supply alone:
> 
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/third-pin/pastilda (awaiting shipping)
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/nth-dimension/signet (funded, in manufacturing)
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/duly-co/opentpm (campaign not yet started)
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/soniktech/zamek (campaign not yet started)
> 
> Paul

So the FST-01 looks in total like a good candidate! Who agrees, who disagrees?

BR and thanks,
Nikolaus


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