Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources (off-topic)

[sm+afrinic]

Hi Sander,
At 03:29 29-06-2017, Sander Steffann wrote:
Indeed, it is worrying that insider knowledge is necessary to know 
what information to ask for. That already shows a lack of 
transparency. Afrinic (morally) belongs to its members, and I 
understand the desire of those members to know how their 
organisation is run so they can have trust that it is run well. It 
would indeed be good to be able to build this trust without using 
insider knowledge.


From the above, the issue is that a representative of a company 
which is a member of Afrinic Ltd does not have adequate information 
to know whether Afrinic Ltd is run well.


Regards,
S. Moonesamy 



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Andrew Alston]

Jackson,

If you read my original email very carefully on this subject – I will not 
violate the NDA – I will not reveal anything that is not already published – 
the rules around the NDA are clear – do not reveal information that you gained 
– I am not doing that – I am asking the board to release the information 
themselves – and as Sander just said –


  1.  The existence of the audit-co report – is documented in the minutes – its 
contents aren’t – and I have not alluded to those contents
  2.  The existence of management letters is public knowledge – if you know 
anything about audit – you will know that is standard practice to issue such
  3.  The fact that I stated that I have knowledge of the management letter is 
public knowledge – I was chair of the audit-co – and the audit charter 
specifically permitted that
  4.  The fact that I have concerns about what is in there – that does not 
reveal any information about the contents – it reveals my opinion about a 
document that it is public knowledge that I have had access to.

I also point you to the resolutions past in the last few years – that 
specifically state that anything that is revealed to a third party not under 
NDA is considered within the public domain – the existence of anything I have 
questioned in the way of documents has been revealed through the publication of 
the minutes.

However Jackson, the problem here is – and I believe I stated as much in the 
previous email – the minutes which are published in any board – are never 
totally revealing – because there are reports – which are clearly mentioned in 
the minutes – and should a reference in the minutes me made to a report and 
that discussion was held around said report, the actual contents of that report 
are never published.  This is open to abuse – and while I am in no way alleging 
such abuse has taken place – I merely point out a significant risk – and here 
is how this could work


  1.  A committee exists
  2.  Work is assigned to said committee
  3.  The committee comes back with a report that is circulated
  4.  The board makes decisions based on what is in that report
  5.  The minutes reflect that the report was discussed – but nothing about 
what was in the report
  6.  The report is never tabled before the community

That leads to a situation where transparency can easily be avoided.

Am I saying that that has happened here?  Certainly not.  I am saying – that is 
the risk of reports that never make it to the light of day.  And as I have said 
– the existence of the reports – that is referenced – that is public 
information – all I am asking is that those reports be made public so that the 
community can judge their contents for themselves.

I also point out – under the national code of corporate governance for 
Mauritius – there are meant to be minutes of every single committee meeting – 
and I would like to ask the board – are those minutes available and if so will 
the board be prepared to publish them – since I believe that if we want 
transparency – let us get full transparency – including into the workings of 
the committees who’s existence is public knowledge.

Andrew


From: Jackson Muthili [mailto:jacksonmu...@gmail.com]
Sent: 29 June 2017 12:46
To: Andrew Alston <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Sunday Folayan <sfola...@gmail.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC 
<community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

This is worrying.

A former board member using privileged insider information to demand
accountability and transparency from current board members.

What does AfriNIC legal adviser have to say about this sort of disclosure?

-J



On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Andrew Alston
<andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com<mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
> Sunday,
>
>
>
> In order to do that – may we audit co report that was presented to the
> board? That is covered by the NDA – and there are aspects of that that
> relate to this directly.
>
>
>
> Can you also – for clarity before we get into this – publish the charter for
> the audit co – because again – to get into this fully – there needs to be
> points made about EXACTLY what is in that audit-co charter and the rules
> behind which anyone on the audit-co must operate.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> From: Sunday Folayan <sfola...@gmail.com<mailto:sfola...@gmail.com>>
> Date: Thursday, 29 June 2017 at 12:06
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
> <community-discuss@afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources
>
>
>
> Mr Alston,
>
> Your crafty discussions about the NDA fuels a perception that there is a
> problem(s) which is being hidden from the public.
>
> I think you should start from issues you 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Sander Steffann]

Hi,

> This is worrying.
> 
> A former board member using privileged insider information to demand
> accountability and transparency from current board members.

Indeed, it is worrying that insider knowledge is necessary to know what 
information to ask for. That already shows a lack of transparency. Afrinic 
(morally) belongs to its members, and I understand the desire of those members 
to know how their organisation is run so they can have trust that it is run 
well. It would indeed be good to be able to build this trust without using 
insider knowledge.

> What does AfriNIC legal adviser have to say about this sort of disclosure?

Nothing has been disclosed that wasn't already disclosed through the minutes 
etc. Everybody could have asked for publication of reports mentioned in the 
minutes.

Cheers,
Sander



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Jackson Muthili]

This is worrying.

A former board member using privileged insider information to demand
accountability and transparency from current board members.

What does AfriNIC legal adviser have to say about this sort of disclosure?

-J



On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Andrew Alston
<andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Sunday,
>
>
>
> In order to do that – may we audit co report that was presented to the
> board?  That is covered by the NDA – and there are aspects of that that
> relate to this directly.
>
>
>
> Can you also – for clarity before we get into this – publish the charter for
> the audit co – because again – to get into this fully – there needs to be
> points made about EXACTLY what is in that audit-co charter and the rules
> behind which anyone on the audit-co must operate.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> From: Sunday Folayan <sfola...@gmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, 29 June 2017 at 12:06
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources
>
>
>
> Mr Alston,
>
> Your crafty discussions about the NDA fuels a perception that there is a
> problem(s) which is being hidden from the public.
>
> I think you should start from issues you raised as a Board member, on the
> board, which the Board did not attend to, or indeed ignored. You are free to
> refer to specific things in the Board minutes, there are no NDAs there.
>
> Go for that!
>
> Sunday.
>
> On 28/06/2017 11:19, Andrew Alston wrote:
>
> Sunday – I happen to disagree with you – strongly – and I am curious to hear
> the opinions of the members.
>
>
>
> Please keep in mind – I HAVE that letter – I know exactly what it is in – I
> however, signed an NDA – and I will not disclose the contents of what is in
> there under any circumstances without it being published.  That being said –
> I *DO* believe that there is information in there that is material to the
> members of this organisation – that I do not believe have been disclosed and
> that should be.
>
>
>
> I also do not believe for a second that this is a simple case of one
> management letter – this is about locking in transparency for the future –
> today – we have a fairly innocuous document from my understanding – tomorrow
> – who knows – and I want a situation that guarantees that in the future – we
> have precedent that will result in total transparency and nothing hidden.
>
>
>
> In the coming days – I will be asking a series of questions – and I will
> explain up front and with transparency exactly what my goals are – and what
> the limits of those questions will be.
>
>
>
> Firstly – under no circumstances will I violate the NDA to which I am a
> signatory of – I hold myself to standards on that and nothing will convince
> me to step outside of that.
>
> Secondly – I am deeply concerned about much of what I have seen – and I
> believe strongly that we need more transparency – and while we have done
> good work in the last few years that work must continue.  Once I feel, as a
> member, within my rights and powers granted by the bylaws, that we are in a
> place where
>
>
>
> a.)The board is bound to follow the bylaws – to the very letter of every
> clause
>
> b.)That the board is bound to follow the law – every aspect of it – law
> which I will not attempt to interpret – there are lawyers on this list for
> that – and there is in house council – I will merely question based  on my
> understanding – and then here the responses and learn from them
>
> c.)The board is acting in the best interests of the community with total
> transparency at all times – I will let the community through their voice
> indicate when they feel there is enough transparency – but right now – I am
> not getting that impression.
>
> d.)That the corporate governance of the organisation is of international
> standard and in full compliance with what is running in the NCCG as
> published in the area in which AfriNIC is domiciled.  While this is
> partially the function of the governance committee – any question I ask on
> this list of course may be taken up and looked at by them should they choose
> to do so – but the creation of such a committee did in no way detract from
> the rights of members to question what is in effect their organisation.
>
>
>
> Then – and only then – will I cease to ask the questions.  As I have said to
> you openly – and I will say it publicly – the questions that will come over
> the next few weeks and months have carefully thought about – carefully
> considered - and they are not meant to do damage – they are meant to provide
> options – and to cr

Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Andrew Alston]

Sunday,

Let me now respond further,

I apologise, I found the audit-co charter online.

I refer to point 3.8 of the charter:

3.8. All decisions of the committee shall be by consensus or unanimous vote of 
all its members.

What this means is – before the audit-co can put anything in a report back to 
the wider board – the ENTIRE committee has to agree that it goes into the 
audit-co report – that is crystal clear.  That limits – heavily – what can be 
said that will make it into the minutes of a board meeting.  Because – when 
issues get  controversial – it is entirely plausible (and I cannot confirm or 
deny due to the NDA if this happened) – that issues never make it into the 
actual reports.

Furthermore – if you refer to the board minutes – you will note that a report 
was tabled – the contents of that report however – are in the report itself – 
they will not appear in the minutes of the actual meeting – and to have this 
discussion further – I now am asking you to publish that entire report without 
redaction – since that will show exactly what I have raised and haven’t raised 
– and anything NOT in that report – please refer to section 3.8 of the charter 
referred to above.

Andrew


From: Andrew Alston [mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com]
Sent: 29 June 2017 12:24
To: Sunday Folayan <sfola...@gmail.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC 
<community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

Sunday,

In order to do that – may we audit co report that was presented to the board?  
That is covered by the NDA – and there are aspects of that that relate to this 
directly.

Can you also – for clarity before we get into this – publish the charter for 
the audit co – because again – to get into this fully – there needs to be 
points made about EXACTLY what is in that audit-co charter and the rules behind 
which anyone on the audit-co must operate.

Andrew

From: Sunday Folayan <sfola...@gmail.com<mailto:sfola...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thursday, 29 June 2017 at 12:06
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
<community-discuss@afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

Mr Alston,

Your crafty discussions about the NDA fuels a perception that there is a 
problem(s) which is being hidden from the public.
I think you should start from issues you raised as a Board member, on the 
board, which the Board did not attend to, or indeed ignored. You are free to 
refer to specific things in the Board minutes, there are no NDAs there.

Go for that!

Sunday.
On 28/06/2017 11:19, Andrew Alston wrote:
Sunday – I happen to disagree with you – strongly – and I am curious to hear 
the opinions of the members.

Please keep in mind – I HAVE that letter – I know exactly what it is in – I 
however, signed an NDA – and I will not disclose the contents of what is in 
there under any circumstances without it being published.  That being said – I 
*DO* believe that there is information in there that is material to the members 
of this organisation – that I do not believe have been disclosed and that 
should be.

I also do not believe for a second that this is a simple case of one management 
letter – this is about locking in transparency for the future – today – we have 
a fairly innocuous document from my understanding – tomorrow – who knows – and 
I want a situation that guarantees that in the future – we have precedent that 
will result in total transparency and nothing hidden.

In the coming days – I will be asking a series of questions – and I will 
explain up front and with transparency exactly what my goals are – and what the 
limits of those questions will be.

Firstly – under no circumstances will I violate the NDA to which I am a 
signatory of – I hold myself to standards on that and nothing will convince me 
to step outside of that.
Secondly – I am deeply concerned about much of what I have seen – and I believe 
strongly that we need more transparency – and while we have done good work in 
the last few years that work must continue.  Once I feel, as a member, within 
my rights and powers granted by the bylaws, that we are in a place where


  1.  The board is bound to follow the bylaws – to the very letter of every 
clause
  2.  That the board is bound to follow the law – every aspect of it – law 
which I will not attempt to interpret – there are lawyers on this list for that 
– and there is in house council – I will merely question based  on my 
understanding – and then here the responses and learn from them
  3.  The board is acting in the best interests of the community with total 
transparency at all times – I will let the community through their voice 
indicate when they feel there is enough transparency – but right now – I am not 
getting that impression.
  4.  That the corporate governance of the organisation is of international 
standard and in full complia

Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Sunday Folayan]

 assets */_attributable to members_/*”, now, 
my laymans understanding of this is that in effect, we, as members, 
pay AfriNIC to deliver us a service and because of the way the 
organisation and RIR’s in general are structured, we also get a say in 
how that service is done, and in effect, the financial aspects of the 
company are of concern to the members, since AfriNIC in effect is 
acting on our behalf in a trust capacity.  To enhance that trust – we 
need to know that the organisation will honour the rules around 
non-profit organisations and transparency – and that is something – I 
plan to fully test.


Thanks

Andrew

*From:*Sunday Folayan [mailto:sfola...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 28 June 2017 12:49
*To:* Andrew Alston <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>
*Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
*Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

Dear Mr Alston,

On 27/06/2017 00:31, Andrew Alston wrote:

Hi Sunday,

Ok – now we have a problem – let me quote what you said:

"This */_report_/*is intended solely for the information and use
of the audit
committee and is not intended to be and should not be used by anyone
other than these specified parties."

Now, let me quote from the bylaws:

7.6 The Registered Members and Resource Members shall, at Annual
General Members' Meetings or by way of written resolutions, in
addition to the rights conferred by Articles 7.1 and 7.2, have the
right to:

(ii) receive */_any auditor's report_/*;

So – what we have is something that SPECIFICALLY calls itself a
report – and is from the auditors.

Then – we have a clause in the bylaws that says **ANY** auditors
report – NOT the financial audit report – not annual report -
**ANY AUDITORS REPORT**

As such – by my reading of this – the board is now in violation of
the bylaws – clearly – and without apology – in violation of that
clause.  Are you SURE this is the stance that the AfriNIC board
wants to take?

Andrew



I would like to remind everybody that an “auditor’s report” is a specific type 
of report, and “any auditor’s report” means any instance of an auditor’s 
report.  It does not mean ”any report that originates from an auditor”.
AFRINIC has published any and all auditor’s reports.
AFRINIC’s auditors and AFRINIC’s legal counsel have confirmed that the 
management letter is not an auditor’s report, neither is it part of an 
auditor’s report, and it is a confidential document.
Some people have implied that there might be something bad in the management 
letter. There are suggestions of things that AFRINIC could do better, but if 
there was anything bad, then it would appear in the auditor’s report, which has 
been published.
Thanks.
Sunday Folayan.
Board Chair.


--
--
Sunday Adekunle Folayan
Managing Director
General data Engineering Services (SKANNET)
16 Oshin Road, Kongi Bodija, Ibadan - Nigeria
Phone: +234 802 291 2202, +234 816 866 7523
Email:sfola...@skannet.com.ng,sfola...@gmail.com
---

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Andrew Alston]

 will honour the rules around non-profit 
organisations and transparency – and that is something – I plan to fully test.

Thanks

Andrew


From: Sunday Folayan [mailto:sfola...@gmail.com]
Sent: 28 June 2017 12:49
To: Andrew Alston <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources


Dear Mr Alston,
On 27/06/2017 00:31, Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Sunday,

Ok – now we have a problem – let me quote what you said:


"This report is intended solely for the information and use of the audit
committee and is not intended to be and should not be used by anyone
other than these specified parties."
Now, let me quote from the bylaws:

7.6 The Registered Members and Resource Members shall, at Annual General 
Members' Meetings or by way of written resolutions, in addition to the rights 
conferred by Articles 7.1 and 7.2, have the right to:
(ii) receive any auditor's report;

So – what we have is something that SPECIFICALLY calls itself a report – and is 
from the auditors.
Then – we have a clause in the bylaws that says *ANY* auditors report – NOT the 
financial audit report – not annual report - *ANY AUDITORS REPORT*

As such – by my reading of this – the board is now in violation of the bylaws – 
clearly – and without apology – in violation of that clause.  Are you SURE this 
is the stance that the AfriNIC board wants to take?

Andrew



I would like to remind everybody that an “auditor’s report” is a specific type 
of report, and “any auditor’s report” means any instance of an auditor’s 
report.  It does not mean ”any report that originates from an auditor”.



AFRINIC has published any and all auditor’s reports.



AFRINIC’s auditors and AFRINIC’s legal counsel have confirmed that the 
management letter is not an auditor’s report, neither is it part of an 
auditor’s report, and it is a confidential document.



Some people have implied that there might be something bad in the management 
letter. There are suggestions of things that AFRINIC could do better, but if 
there was anything bad, then it would appear in the auditor’s report, which has 
been published.



Thanks.



Sunday Folayan.

Board Chair.


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Sunday Folayan]

Dear Mr Alston,

On 27/06/2017 00:31, Andrew Alston wrote:


Hi Sunday,

Ok – now we have a problem – let me quote what you said:

"This */_report_/*is intended solely for the information and use of 
the audit

committee and is not intended to be and should not be used by anyone
other than these specified parties."

Now, let me quote from the bylaws:

7.6 The Registered Members and Resource Members shall, at Annual 
General Members' Meetings or by way of written resolutions, in 
addition to the rights conferred by Articles 7.1 and 7.2, have the 
right to:


(ii) receive */_any auditor's report_/*;

So – what we have is something that SPECIFICALLY calls itself a report 
– and is from the auditors.


Then – we have a clause in the bylaws that says **ANY** auditors 
report – NOT the financial audit report – not annual report - **ANY 
AUDITORS REPORT**


As such – by my reading of this – the board is now in violation of the 
bylaws – clearly – and without apology – in violation of that clause.  
Are you SURE this is the stance that the AfriNIC board wants to take?


Andrew



I would like to remind everybody that an “auditor’s report” is a specific type 
of report, and “any auditor’s report” means any instance of an auditor’s 
report.  It does not mean ”any report that originates from an auditor”.

AFRINIC has published any and all auditor’s reports.

AFRINIC’s auditors and AFRINIC’s legal counsel have confirmed that the 
management letter is not an auditor’s report, neither is it part of an 
auditor’s report, and it is a confidential document.

Some people have implied that there might be something bad in the management 
letter. There are suggestions of things that AFRINIC could do better, but if 
there was anything bad, then it would appear in the auditor’s report, which has 
been published.

Thanks.

Sunday Folayan.
Board Chair.

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Tutu Ngcaba]

Brother Andrew

Maybe they shall he hiding somethig which makes afraid to publish maybe for
good or bad. No one shall know this if they Chair said no publication even
if some members already they wish for the traparent publications as per the
ANY clauses you pointed from this bylaways.

Best Regards,
Tutu Ngcaba


On 27 Jun 2017 2:32 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Hi Sunday,
>
>
>
> Ok – now we have a problem – let me quote what you said:
>
>
>
> "This *report* is intended solely for the information and use of the audit
> committee and is not intended to be and should not be used by anyone
> other than these specified parties."
>
> Now, let me quote from the bylaws:
>
>
>
> 7.6 The Registered Members and Resource Members shall, at Annual General
> Members' Meetings or by way of written resolutions, in addition to the
> rights conferred by Articles 7.1 and 7.2, have the right to:
>
> (ii) receive *any auditor's report*;
>
>
>
> So – what we have is something that SPECIFICALLY calls itself a report –
> and is from the auditors.
>
> Then – we have a clause in the bylaws that says **ANY** auditors report –
> NOT the financial audit report – not annual report - **ANY AUDITORS
> REPORT**
>
>
>
> As such – by my reading of this – the board is now in violation of the
> bylaws – clearly – and without apology – in violation of that clause.  Are
> you SURE this is the stance that the AfriNIC board wants to take?
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sunday Folayan [mailto:sfola...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 26 June 2017 23:35
> *To:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources
>
>
>
> Dear Community members,
>
> The Board has confirmed from the auditors that the Management letter is
> not part of the Audit Report.
>
> The cover note of the Management letter indeed has a part that reads 
>
>
>
> *"This report is intended solely for the information and use of the audit
> committee and is not intended to be and should not be used by anyone other
> than these specified parties."*
>
> Because of this, we can't and should not share the management letter.
>
> I hope this clears the matter.
>
> Best Regards ...
>
> Sunday Folayan.
>
> Chair, AFRINIC Board
>
>
>
> On 23/06/2017 15:32, Badru Ntege wrote:
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On 23 Jun 2017, at 15:13, Sunday Folayan <sfola...@gmail.com> 
> <sfola...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> The Auditor's Report is already published along with the Financial 
> Statements. The Board believes that the Management letter is a confidential 
> document.
>
> Why would the management letter be . Confidential
>
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Andrew Alston]

Hi Sunday,

Ok – now we have a problem – let me quote what you said:


"This report is intended solely for the information and use of the audit
committee and is not intended to be and should not be used by anyone
other than these specified parties."
Now, let me quote from the bylaws:

7.6 The Registered Members and Resource Members shall, at Annual General 
Members' Meetings or by way of written resolutions, in addition to the rights 
conferred by Articles 7.1 and 7.2, have the right to:
(ii) receive any auditor's report;

So – what we have is something that SPECIFICALLY calls itself a report – and is 
from the auditors.
Then – we have a clause in the bylaws that says *ANY* auditors report – NOT the 
financial audit report – not annual report - *ANY AUDITORS REPORT*

As such – by my reading of this – the board is now in violation of the bylaws – 
clearly – and without apology – in violation of that clause.  Are you SURE this 
is the stance that the AfriNIC board wants to take?

Andrew


From: Sunday Folayan [mailto:sfola...@gmail.com]
Sent: 26 June 2017 23:35
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

Dear Community members,

The Board has confirmed from the auditors that the Management letter is not 
part of the Audit Report.

The cover note of the Management letter indeed has a part that reads 

"This report is intended solely for the information and use of the audit
committee and is not intended to be and should not be used by anyone
other than these specified parties."

Because of this, we can't and should not share the management letter.

I hope this clears the matter.

Best Regards ...

Sunday Folayan.

Chair, AFRINIC Board

On 23/06/2017 15:32, Badru Ntege wrote:



Sent from my iPhone



On 23 Jun 2017, at 15:13, Sunday Folayan 
<sfola...@gmail.com><mailto:sfola...@gmail.com> wrote:



The Auditor's Report is already published along with the Financial Statements. 
The Board believes that the Management letter is a confidential document.

Why would the management letter be . Confidential
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Sunday Folayan]

Dear Community members,

The Board has confirmed from the auditors that the Management letter is 
not part of the Audit Report.


The cover note of the Management letter indeed has a part that reads 

*"This report is intended solely for the information and use of the audit**
**committee and is not intended to be and should not be used by anyone**
**other than these specified parties."*

Because of this, we can't and should not share the management letter.

I hope this clears the matter.

Best Regards ...

Sunday Folayan.

Chair, AFRINIC Board


On 23/06/2017 15:32, Badru Ntege wrote:

Sent from my iPhone


On 23 Jun 2017, at 15:13, Sunday Folayan  wrote:

The Auditor's Report is already published along with the Financial Statements. 
The Board believes that the Management letter is a confidential document.

Why would the management letter be . Confidential
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Chevalier du Borg]

2017-06-23 20:06 GMT+04:00 Andrew Alston :

> So – fine – let someone ask for it let it be disclosed and let them
> publish it – either way – the point is – the community has a right to see it



Since it concern audit and money. It is important for membership to know.

-A- If there is someting bad inside  letter, CEO and board had
responsiblity to inform members/community and tell us what is being done to
fix
-B- If there is nothing bad inside letter, that only increase our confidence

That is how we build TRUST. which before anyone is like a bank account. You
cannot keep withdrawing (no answering simple question from community,
calling on confidentiality, NDA etc) without making deposit (be more
transparent, disclosing thing before the go bad, etc) and expect thing to
go well.



-- 
Borg le Chevalier
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Chevalier du Borg]

2017-06-23 19:58 GMT+04:00 Janvier NGNOULAYE :

> " the member base can see the document" does it mean those documents
> should be published to the community?
>

AfriNIC get it's legitimacy from The Community
Membership is just subset of The Community



-- 
Borg le Chevalier
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Andrew Alston]

Ok – but Janvier – at that point – this doesn’t make much sense – because – 
under the rules (see a resolution published I believe in 2014 or 2015), the 
moment you disclose to any member – it may as well be disclosed to all – since 
any document disclosed to an individual not bound by the AFRINIC NDA is 
considered in the public domain (I can find the exact resolution number and 
give you a link to it if you want)

So – fine – let someone ask for it let it be disclosed and let them publish it 
– either way – the point is – the community has a right to see it

Andrew


From: Janvier NGNOULAYE [mailto:jnoul...@gmail.com]
Sent: 23 June 2017 18:58
To: Andrew Alston <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>; 
badru.nt...@nftconsult.com
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

Dear Andrew and all,
I hope you will get me well here.
" the member base can see the document" does it mean those documents should be 
published to the community? I think this clause into the bylaw requests to any 
member to access to the documents when he/she asks. Based on this I can't see 
any false in transparency. There is no need to change the bylaw on this, but to 
give a correct reading on it.
So Trust and Patience are the key values the community should build vis à vis 
the leaders of the Company, of cause in respect of the bylaw and company Act, 
with the correct reading.
Nice week-end to All.
Janvier Ngnoulaye


Le 23 juin 2017 16:14, "Andrew Alston" 
<andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com<mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> a 
écrit :
Janvier,

Sorry – but let me put this another way –

Confidence is a product of transparency – and when the bylaws of the company 
say that the member base can see documents – we either change the bylaws to say 
they can’t – or when requested to – the documents get disclosed as per the 
bylaws.

A few weeks ago – I asked this community about transparency in the financials 
and more transparency about what we wanted to see – I was met with curious 
silence from most quarters – and I’d really like to see more discussion on that 
as well.

The reality is – we’ve come a LONG way in the last few years in terms of 
transparency – but have we come far enough?  I don’t believe so.  Furthermore – 
to be quite frank – while I trust the management of today – I have no idea what 
the management will be like in the future – and therefore – it is necessary to 
lay the groundwork and set the precedents that force on going long term 
sustainable transparency.  So – if the bylaws grant the access to things – let 
it be shared – there should be nothing to hide anyway – because after all – if 
there are problems – this community can sometimes assist in finding solutions 
to those problems and discussing them openly.  However, if there are problems 
and they are dealt with behind closed doors with the lights off – well – that 
is not exactly conducive to trust is it?

Andrew


From: Janvier NGNOULAYE [mailto:jnoul...@gmail.com<mailto:jnoul...@gmail.com>]
Sent: 23 June 2017 18:06
To: Badru Ntege <badru.nt...@nftconsult.com<mailto:badru.nt...@nftconsult.com>>

Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
<community-discuss@afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources



Le 23 juin 2017 15:31, "Badru Ntege" 
<badru.nt...@nftconsult.com<mailto:badru.nt...@nftconsult.com>> a écrit :


Sent from my iPhone

> On 23 Jun 2017, at 15:13, Sunday Folayan 
> <sfola...@gmail.com<mailto:sfola...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> The Auditor's Report is already published along with the Financial 
> Statements. The Board believes that the Management letter is a confidential 
> document.
Why would the management letter be . Confidential

Badru, because it is a management letter. Take it like this. It is a common 
principle in management.
People or community should have a little confidence to the people they elected 
to carry the business of the company.
Regards,
/Janvier
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Janvier NGNOULAYE]

Dear Andrew and all,
I hope you will get me well here.
" the member base can see the document" does it mean those documents should
be published to the community? I think this clause into the bylaw requests
to any member to access to the documents when he/she asks. Based on this I
can't see any false in transparency. There is no need to change the bylaw
on this, but to give a correct reading on it.
So Trust and Patience are the key values the community should build vis à
vis the leaders of the Company, of cause in respect of the bylaw and
company Act, with the correct reading.
Nice week-end to All.
Janvier Ngnoulaye


Le 23 juin 2017 16:14, "Andrew Alston" <andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com> a
écrit :

Janvier,



Sorry – but let me put this another way –



Confidence is a product of transparency – and when the bylaws of the
company say that the member base can see documents – we either change the
bylaws to say they can’t – or when requested to – the documents get
disclosed as per the bylaws.



A few weeks ago – I asked this community about transparency in the
financials and more transparency about what we wanted to see – I was met
with curious silence from most quarters – and I’d really like to see more
discussion on that as well.



The reality is – we’ve come a LONG way in the last few years in terms of
transparency – but have we come far enough?  I don’t believe so.
Furthermore – to be quite frank – while I trust the management of today – I
have no idea what the management will be like in the future – and therefore
– it is necessary to lay the groundwork and set the precedents that force
on going long term sustainable transparency.  So – if the bylaws grant the
access to things – let it be shared – there should be nothing to hide
anyway – because after all – if there are problems – this community can
sometimes assist in finding solutions to those problems and discussing them
openly.  However, if there are problems and they are dealt with behind
closed doors with the lights off – well – that is not exactly conducive to
trust is it?



Andrew





*From:* Janvier NGNOULAYE [mailto:jnoul...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 23 June 2017 18:06
*To:* Badru Ntege <badru.nt...@nftconsult.com>

*Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
*Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources







Le 23 juin 2017 15:31, "Badru Ntege" <badru.nt...@nftconsult.com> a écrit :



Sent from my iPhone


> On 23 Jun 2017, at 15:13, Sunday Folayan <sfola...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The Auditor's Report is already published along with the Financial
Statements. The Board believes that the Management letter is a confidential
document.

Why would the management letter be . Confidential



Badru, because it is a management letter. Take it like this. It is a common
principle in management.

People or community should have a little confidence to the people they
elected to carry the business of the company.

Regards,

/Janvier

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Badru Ntege]

Sent from my iPhone

> On 23 Jun 2017, at 15:13, Sunday Folayan  wrote:
> 
> The Auditor's Report is already published along with the Financial 
> Statements. The Board believes that the Management letter is a confidential 
> document.

Why would the management letter be . Confidential
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Andrew Alston]

And while on the subject of transparency, I would also ask, that the board 
disclosure *ALL* the audit reports – inclusive of the management letters which 
form part of the auditor’s report – as per section 7.6.(ii) which expressly 
says that the registered and resource members have the right to receive *ANY* 
auditor’s report.
The board is reading

Yes. reading loud and clear.

The Auditor's Report is already published along with the Financial Statements. 
The Board believes that the Management letter is a confidential document.


Sunday – then change the bylaws – the management letter forms a part of the 
auditors report to the board – indeed an auditor will not finalize without what 
is in there being addressed – it is a standard part of any audit report.  The 
bylaws are explicit – members have the right to *ANY* report from the auditors 
– no exceptions – no limitations.  I understand as well as you do that there 
are confidential documents which the board cannot share – however – if the 
right is explicitly granted in the bylaws – then there is no option but to 
share.  That is the nature of the bylaws – and the board does not have the 
right or the authority to ignore them

Andrew

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Noah]

On 22 Jun 2017 9:49 p.m., "Andrew Alston" 
wrote:

Noah –



An annual report – by law – has to contain the financials – audits cannot
even BEGIN until after the close of the financial year – and audits take
time – and yes – I am also not all that pleased that the “friendly” audit
report is not out yet – but asking for a report in Q1 that is required to
contain financials is entirely unrealistic.



Here is the thing – while the board of directors has the power to approve
the financials, and then bring them to the floor for adoption by the
members – until such time as they are approved and I would say adopted –
they cannot realistically be included in the “friendly” annual report –
because the financials actually **ARE** the annual report – the friendly
version is what is added to that.



So – either an annual report goes out with financials the community has not
adopted – and by the way – annual reports are meant to be filed and once
released are very difficult to withdraw and change – or – the community
still gets to adopt the financials before they get put into formal
publication – one way – you can have an early annual report – the other way
– you can adopt the financials – but it can’t be both – that’s not the way
it works.


Andrew,

Alright then and I get what you are saying, but the concern is still the 6
months delay its taken and is only expected in July 2017.

IMHO, the FS is a summary of the activity of AFRINIC in a given year
financially. As such, it would make sense for the report that explains the
details of the FS pending adoption by community and a report on AFRINIC
activities to be made available at the same time as the FS.

AFRINIC should combine both if need be and publish them as earlier as April
and before AGMM.



By the way – I have a serious and pressing concern that I will be raising
on the members list about the adoption of the financials – because I only
realized this AFTER the Nairobi meeting – under section 7.6.(i) the
community has the power to adopt the financials – and unless I am mistaken
– this was not done – so I would like to ask the board of directors when
this community will get to adopt said financials.


As far as I remember,  you were seated with fellow board members during the
discussion on the FS and if memory serves the Chair called for the adoption
of the FS after the community discussing it and no one in the room
objected. I could also be wrong unless I check the video archives on
youtube :-).



And while on the subject of transparency, I would also ask, that the board
disclosure **ALL** the audit reports – inclusive of the management letters
which form part of the auditor’s report – as per section 7.6.(ii) which
expressly says that the registered and resource members have the right to
receive **ANY** auditor’s report.

The board is reading

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Andrew Alston]

Noah –

An annual report – by law – has to contain the financials – audits cannot even 
BEGIN until after the close of the financial year – and audits take time – and 
yes – I am also not all that pleased that the “friendly” audit report is not 
out yet – but asking for a report in Q1 that is required to contain financials 
is entirely unrealistic.

Here is the thing – while the board of directors has the power to approve the 
financials, and then bring them to the floor for adoption by the members – 
until such time as they are approved and I would say adopted – they cannot 
realistically be included in the “friendly” annual report – because the 
financials actually *ARE* the annual report – the friendly version is what is 
added to that.

So – either an annual report goes out with financials the community has not 
adopted – and by the way – annual reports are meant to be filed and once 
released are very difficult to withdraw and change – or – the community still 
gets to adopt the financials before they get put into formal publication – one 
way – you can have an early annual report – the other way – you can adopt the 
financials – but it can’t be both – that’s not the way it works.

By the way – I have a serious and pressing concern that I will be raising on 
the members list about the adoption of the financials – because I only realized 
this AFTER the Nairobi meeting – under section 7.6.(i) the community has the 
power to adopt the financials – and unless I am mistaken – this was not done – 
so I would like to ask the board of directors when this community will get to 
adopt said financials.

And while on the subject of transparency, I would also ask, that the board 
disclosure *ALL* the audit reports – inclusive of the management letters which 
form part of the auditor’s report – as per section 7.6.(ii) which expressly 
says that the registered and resource members have the right to receive *ANY* 
auditor’s report.

Thanks

Andrew

From: Noah [mailto:n...@neo.co.tz]
Sent: 22 June 2017 21:29
To: Alan Barrett <alan.barr...@afrinic.net>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources



On 21 Jun 2017 7:17 p.m., "Alan Barrett" 
<alan.barr...@afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barr...@afrinic.net>> wrote:

> On 20 Jun 2017, at 21:59, Noah <n...@neo.co.tz<mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the effort and sharing this information.
>
> We will appreciate as a community that this information is and must be made 
> available online as part of the annual report[1]
We will develop processes for publishing a summary of recovered space in the 
future.



Sounds like a plan and let the process consider publishing this information 
each quarter if not annually please.



> Checking again the link 
> ftp://ftp.afrinic.net//stats/afrinic/delegated-afrinic-extended-latest<ftp://ftp.afrinic.net//stats/afrinic/delegated-afrinic-extended-latest>
>
> Besides the block below which you indicated as reserved per CPM 5.4.7.
>
> afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.224.0.0|1048576||reserved
>
> It does also shows for instance, the below space as reserved
>
> afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.160.0.0|524288||reserved
> afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.178.0.0|131072||reserved
> afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.180.0.0|65536||reserved
I will find out why that space is marked as reserved.


Looking forward indeed.



> And why is the recovered and/or reseved space not listed in Afrinic's normal 
> pool or at a dedicated web page like below for better trasparency.
>
> http://www.lacnic.net/web/lacnic/revocacion-de-recursos<http://www.lacnic.net/web/lacnic/revocacion-de-recursos>
>
> Why can't Afrinic create similar tools?
I think you are asking for Afrinic to publish similar information in future.  
Yes, we will do so, but it requires new internal tools to be developed.


Yes I am and we look forward to a simple tool that is easy to parse and find 
such information  from the stat file as well.



> And what is the rational behind the 2 years quarantine  before the recovered 
> space can be reallocated?
>
> What is the process of determining and/or restoring recovered space 
> reputation from previous activities
The existing process is purely internal.  We will produce a public summary of 
the process.


Perfect and looking forward to that too.




> [1] By the way,  where is the annual report for 2016? The bylaws make its 
> publication mandatory.
The friendly version of the annual report will be published by 15 July.  The 
mandatory requirement in the bylaws is satisfied by the audited financial 
report, but we recognise that members want more than that, and we are committed 
to delivering a friendly version of the annual report.



In all honesty this is very disappointing. Even the so called friendly version 
of the annual report which is

Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Noah]

On 21 Jun 2017 7:17 p.m., "Alan Barrett"  wrote:


> On 20 Jun 2017, at 21:59, Noah  wrote:
>
> Thank you for the effort and sharing this information.
>
> We will appreciate as a community that this information is and must be
made available online as part of the annual report[1]

We will develop processes for publishing a summary of recovered space in
the future.




Sounds like a plan and let the process consider publishing this information
each quarter if not annually please.



> Checking again the link ftp://ftp.afrinic.net//stats/a
frinic/delegated-afrinic-extended-latest
>
> Besides the block below which you indicated as reserved per CPM 5.4.7.
>
> afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.224.0.0|1048576||reserved
>
> It does also shows for instance, the below space as reserved
>
> afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.160.0.0|524288||reserved
> afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.178.0.0|131072||reserved
> afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.180.0.0|65536||reserved

I will find out why that space is marked as reserved.



Looking forward indeed.



> And why is the recovered and/or reseved space not listed in Afrinic's
normal pool or at a dedicated web page like below for better trasparency.
>
> http://www.lacnic.net/web/lacnic/revocacion-de-recursos
>
> Why can't Afrinic create similar tools?

I think you are asking for Afrinic to publish similar information in
future.  Yes, we will do so, but it requires new internal tools to be
developed.



Yes I am and we look forward to a simple tool that is easy to parse and
find such information  from the stat file as well.



> And what is the rational behind the 2 years quarantine  before the
recovered space can be reallocated?
>
> What is the process of determining and/or restoring recovered space
reputation from previous activities

The existing process is purely internal.  We will produce a public summary
of the process.



Perfect and looking forward to that too.




> [1] By the way,  where is the annual report for 2016? The bylaws make its
publication mandatory.

The friendly version of the annual report will be published by 15 July.
The mandatory requirement in the bylaws is satisfied by the audited
financial report, but we recognise that members want more than that, and we
are committed to delivering a friendly version of the annual report.




In all honesty this is very disappointing. Even the so called friendly
version of the annual report which is VERY IMPORTAMT for members and the
community to assess the organization's achievements for its core activities
yet it's not ready 6 months after end of 2016 [1].

Cheers,
Noah


[1] If we are too improve accountability and transparency across the board,
having this reports published as earlier as possible will be better perhaps
within Q1 and before next AGMM please.
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Alan Barrett]

> On 21 Jun 2017, at 17:30, Walubengo J  wrote:
> 
> Thanx Alan for the update.
> 
> But meanwhile forgive my ignorance.  I am having trouble interpreting what it 
> means to reclaim a /32 v4 address.
> 
> >>>
> 211968 IPv4 Addresses (/32s) were reclaimed
> >>>

Here, a /32 simply means an IPv4 address.  For example, there are 256 /32s in a 
/24.

Alan Barrett


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Closed members and recovered resources

[Noah]

On 19 Jun 2017 4:07 p.m., "Alan Barrett"  wrote:

In response to several questions, I can give the following information
about organisations whose Afrinic membership was terminated and their
resources reclaimed.

In 2014:

15 members were closed
18 ASNs were reclaimed
211968 IPv4 Addresses (/32s) were reclaimed
5 IPv6 /32s were reclaimed

In 2015: No members were closed.

In 2016:

12 members were closed
8 ASNs were reclaimed
71680 IPv4 /32s were reclaimed
1 IPv6 /48 was reclaimed

In 2017:

19 members have been closed (or are near the end of the closure process)
16 ASNs have been reclaimed
45056 IPv4 /32s have been reclaimed
2 IPv6 /32s have been reclaimed


To find exactly what space is currently quarantined, you can download the
extended statistics file from , search for “reserved” in the
seventh pipe-delimited column, and then exclude any space within the
following ranges which are reserved by policy:

IPv4 196.60.0.0/16  Reserved for IXPs peering networks per CPM 11.4
IPv4 196.49.0.0/16  Reserved for IXPs management networks per CPM 11.4
IPv4 102.224.0.0/12 Reserved for future use per CPM 5.4.7
ASN 37769-37887 Reserved for use in BGP route servers at IXPs per
CPM 11.4

In the case of IPv6, the extended statistics file shows that, for each
allocated /48, space is reserved up to the next /44 boundary, and for each
allocated /32, space is reserved up to the next /29 boundary.  If you are
looking for quarantined space, you will also have to ignore these
reservations.



Hi Alan

Thank you for the effort and sharing this information.

We will appreciate as a community that this information is and must be made
available online as part of the annual report[1]

Checking again the link ftp://ftp.afrinic.net//stats/a
frinic/delegated-afrinic-extended-latest

Besides the block below which you indicated as reserved per CPM 5.4.7.

afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.224.0.0|1048576||reserved

It does also shows for instance, the below space as reserved

afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.160.0.0|524288||reserved
afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.178.0.0|131072||reserved
afrinic|ZZ|ipv4|102.180.0.0|65536||reserved

Which means either this stats are outdated or wrong since your email and
explaination doesnt indicate why the above 3 blocks are marked as reserved
and which can't be recovered space as per the recovery numbers for 2017.

And why is the recovered and/or reseved space not listed in Afrinic's
normal pool or at a dedicated web page like below for better trasparency.

http://www.lacnic.net/web/lacnic/revocacion-de-recursos

Why can't Afrinic create similar tools?.

And what is the rational behind the 2 years quarantine  before the
recovered space can be reallocated?

What is the process of determining and/or restoring recovered space
reputation from previous activities

BR,
Noah



[1] By the way,  where is the annual report for 2016? The bylaws make its
publication mandatory.


[1] The community has requested and we agreed that In order to enhance
AFRINIC accountability, we make sure that this information is published
yearly so that the community/membership can know how much space is
recovered and available in the inventory.
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