subject:"\[Computer\-go\] Life and Death"

Re: [Computer-go] Life and Death

2015-09-03 Thread Igor Polyakov

Just stay up for like 30 hours and it will be pretty spooky at that 
point. 10/10 would watch again


On 2015-09-03 0:44, Jim O'Flaherty wrote:
I think you forgot to suggest which pharmaceuticals, legal or 
otherwise, to be using while watching this. Without said 
pharmacological assistance, that video doesn't make a bit of sense to me.


On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 9:13 PM, djhbrown . > wrote:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opOAFYutILU&index=8&list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S

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Re: [Computer-go] Life and Death

2015-09-03 Thread Jim O'Flaherty

I think you forgot to suggest which pharmaceuticals, legal or otherwise, to
be using while watching this. Without said pharmacological assistance, that
video doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 9:13 PM, djhbrown .  wrote:

>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opOAFYutILU&index=8&list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S
>
> --
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> https://www.youtube.com/user/djhbrown
>
>
>
>
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>
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[Computer-go] Life and Death

2015-09-02 Thread djhbrown .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opOAFYutILU&index=8&list=PL4y5WtsvtduqNW0AKlSsOdea3Hl1X_v-S

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RE: [computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-27 Thread terry mcintyre

> > David Fotland wrote:
> > > I just looked at this position and it looks like
> a win for black in the
> > > first position.  Many Faces evaluates it as a
> win for black, and plays c1 to
> > > save the lower left black group with almost no
> thinking time.
> > 
> > > Mogo is correct because the lower left black
> group is not dead.

Somebody replied:

> > Doesn't B3 kill in response to C1?

--- David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Oops, yes you are right.  I shouldn't try to look at
> a position when I'm half asleep.

So we are back to the original theory: Mogo
incorrectly believed that the position was 70% in
favor of a black win, until white made the situation
more blatantly obvious.

Three questions: 

a) does the new version of Mogo, with the nakade
improvements, handle this situation any better?

b) how do other programs fare?

c) what strategies would provide a general
improvement? 

Terry McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state 
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit 
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.

Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874]

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RE: [computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-27 Thread David Fotland

Oops, yes you are right.  I shouldn't try to look at a position when I'm
half asleep.

David

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Woodcraft
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:34 PM
> To: computer-go
> Subject: Re: [computer-go] Life and Death
> 
> David Fotland wrote:
> > I just looked at this position and it looks like a win for black in
> the
> > first position.  Many Faces evaluates it as a win for black, and
> plays c1 to
> > save the lower left black group with almost no thinking time.
> 
> > Mogo is correct because the lower left black group is not dead.
> 
> Doesn't B3 kill in response to C1?
> 
> -M-
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Re: [computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-27 Thread Matthew Woodcraft

David Fotland wrote:
> I just looked at this position and it looks like a win for black in the
> first position.  Many Faces evaluates it as a win for black, and plays c1 to
> save the lower left black group with almost no thinking time.

> Mogo is correct because the lower left black group is not dead.

Doesn't B3 kill in response to C1?

-M-
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RE: [computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-27 Thread terry mcintyre


--- David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I just looked at this position and it looks like a
> win for black in the
> first position.  Many Faces evaluates it as a win
> for black, and plays c1 to
> save the lower left black group with almost no
> thinking time.
> 
> Mogo is correct because the lower left black group
> is not dead.

That's interesting -- did Mogo know in some sense that
the group could be defended, yet fail to actually play
the necessary move(s)?

I wonder if enough information is available in the
playouts to determine that certain moves will
dramatically tilt the outcome? Can that information
indicate a sense of the urgency of certain moves
compared to others?

> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:computer-go-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew
> Woodcraft
> > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 11:49 AM
> > To: computer-go
> > Subject: [computer-go] Life and Death
> > 
> > I've included two 13x13 positions below. In both
> positions it is
> > Black's
> > move.
> > 
> > The first position is simplified from a real game.
> Black has two
> > enclosed dead groups, and White has a small but
> easy win.
> > 
> > The second position is a modified version of the
> first in which the
> > dead
> > groups are more obviously dead.
> > 
> > If I try MogoRelease3 playing as Black on position
> 2, it shows a 20%
> > score and resigns either immediately or after a
> couple of moves.
> > 
> > If I try it on position 1, it shows a score of
> 70%+ for Black, and
> > continues to play until White takes steps to
> remove the dead groups
> > from
> > the board. I've tested with up to 2^24 playouts.
> > 
> > I have tried increasing --collectorLimitTreeSize
> and --limitTreeSize
> > (like bigMogo in the scalability study), but I
> can't set them much
> > higher than the default on this machine without
> running out of memory.
> > 
> > I'd be interested to see if someone with a bigger
> computer can find out
> > what resources it needs to judge this position
> well, and to see how
> > other engines do.
> > 
> > Position 1
> > 
> > (;GM[1]FF[4]
> > CA[UTF-8]
> > SZ[13]
> > HA[0]
> > KM[0.5]
> >
>
AB[jb:kb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:ld][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
> >
>
[ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][lk][al][ck:cl][ji:jl]
> > [dm][im]
> >
>
AW[ia:ja][ib][hc:jc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf][hf:jf]
> >
>
[lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk][hk:ik]
> > [dl][il][bm][fl:fm][hm]
> > )
> > 
> > Position 2
> > 
> > (;GM[1]FF[4]
> > CA[UTF-8]
> > SZ[13]
> > HA[0]
> > KM[0.5]
> >
>
AB[jb:mb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:md][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
> >
>
[ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][bk:ck][lk][al][cl]
> > [ji:jl][im]
> >
>
AW[ia:la][ib][hc:jc][mc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf]
> >
>
[hf:jf][lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk]
> > [hk:ik][dl][fl][il][bm:cm][em:fm][hm]
> > )
> > 
> > -M-
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Terry McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state 
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit 
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.

Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874]


  

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Re: [computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-27 Thread Tom Cooper


I think that the original description of the position should have said
'killable' rather than 'dead', and that David missed the fact that
it is White to move.

At 08:06 27/03/2008, Hideki wrote:


David Fotland: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>I just looked at this position and it looks like a win for black in the
>first position.  Many Faces evaluates it as a win for black, and plays c1 to
>save the lower left black group with almost no thinking time.
>
>Mogo is correct because the lower left black group is not dead.

I'm sorry if wrong but the black seems dead by B5 after C1, isn't
it?

-Hideki

>David
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Woodcraft
>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 11:49 AM
>> To: computer-go
>> Subject: [computer-go] Life and Death
>>
>> I've included two 13x13 positions below. In both positions it is
>> Black's
>> move.
>>
>> The first position is simplified from a real game. Black has two
>> enclosed dead groups, and White has a small but easy win.
>>
>> The second position is a modified version of the first in which the
>> dead
>> groups are more obviously dead.
>>
>> If I try MogoRelease3 playing as Black on position 2, it shows a 20%
>> score and resigns either immediately or after a couple of moves.
>>
>> If I try it on position 1, it shows a score of 70%+ for Black, and
>> continues to play until White takes steps to remove the dead groups
>> from
>> the board. I've tested with up to 2^24 playouts.
>>
>> I have tried increasing --collectorLimitTreeSize and --limitTreeSize
>> (like bigMogo in the scalability study), but I can't set them much
>> higher than the default on this machine without running out of memory.
>>
>> I'd be interested to see if someone with a bigger computer can find out
>> what resources it needs to judge this position well, and to see how
>> other engines do.
>>
>> Position 1
>>
>> (;GM[1]FF[4]
>> CA[UTF-8]
>> SZ[13]
>> HA[0]
>> KM[0.5]
>> AB[jb:kb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:ld][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
>> [ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][lk][al][ck:cl][ji:jl]
>> [dm][im]
>> AW[ia:ja][ib][hc:jc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf][hf:jf]
>> [lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk][hk:ik]
>> [dl][il][bm][fl:fm][hm]
>> )
>>
>> Position 2
>>
>> (;GM[1]FF[4]
>> CA[UTF-8]
>> SZ[13]
>> HA[0]
>> KM[0.5]
>> AB[jb:mb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:md][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
>> [ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][bk:ck][lk][al][cl]
>> [ji:jl][im]
>> AW[ia:la][ib][hc:jc][mc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf]
>> [hf:jf][lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk]
>> [hk:ik][dl][fl][il][bm:cm][em:fm][hm]
>> )
>>
>> -M-
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>
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Re: [computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-27 Thread Hideki Kato

David Fotland: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>I just looked at this position and it looks like a win for black in the
>first position.  Many Faces evaluates it as a win for black, and plays c1 to
>save the lower left black group with almost no thinking time.
>
>Mogo is correct because the lower left black group is not dead.

I'm sorry if wrong but the black seems dead by B5 after C1, isn't 
it?

-Hideki

>David
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Woodcraft
>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 11:49 AM
>> To: computer-go
>> Subject: [computer-go] Life and Death
>> 
>> I've included two 13x13 positions below. In both positions it is
>> Black's
>> move.
>> 
>> The first position is simplified from a real game. Black has two
>> enclosed dead groups, and White has a small but easy win.
>> 
>> The second position is a modified version of the first in which the
>> dead
>> groups are more obviously dead.
>> 
>> If I try MogoRelease3 playing as Black on position 2, it shows a 20%
>> score and resigns either immediately or after a couple of moves.
>> 
>> If I try it on position 1, it shows a score of 70%+ for Black, and
>> continues to play until White takes steps to remove the dead groups
>> from
>> the board. I've tested with up to 2^24 playouts.
>> 
>> I have tried increasing --collectorLimitTreeSize and --limitTreeSize
>> (like bigMogo in the scalability study), but I can't set them much
>> higher than the default on this machine without running out of memory.
>> 
>> I'd be interested to see if someone with a bigger computer can find out
>> what resources it needs to judge this position well, and to see how
>> other engines do.
>> 
>> Position 1
>> 
>> (;GM[1]FF[4]
>> CA[UTF-8]
>> SZ[13]
>> HA[0]
>> KM[0.5]
>> AB[jb:kb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:ld][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
>> [ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][lk][al][ck:cl][ji:jl]
>> [dm][im]
>> AW[ia:ja][ib][hc:jc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf][hf:jf]
>> [lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk][hk:ik]
>> [dl][il][bm][fl:fm][hm]
>> )
>> 
>> Position 2
>> 
>> (;GM[1]FF[4]
>> CA[UTF-8]
>> SZ[13]
>> HA[0]
>> KM[0.5]
>> AB[jb:mb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:md][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
>> [ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][bk:ck][lk][al][cl]
>> [ji:jl][im]
>> AW[ia:la][ib][hc:jc][mc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf]
>> [hf:jf][lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk]
>> [hk:ik][dl][fl][il][bm:cm][em:fm][hm]
>> )
>> 
>> -M-
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RE: [computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-27 Thread David Fotland

I just looked at this position and it looks like a win for black in the
first position.  Many Faces evaluates it as a win for black, and plays c1 to
save the lower left black group with almost no thinking time.

Mogo is correct because the lower left black group is not dead.

David

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Woodcraft
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 11:49 AM
> To: computer-go
> Subject: [computer-go] Life and Death
> 
> I've included two 13x13 positions below. In both positions it is
> Black's
> move.
> 
> The first position is simplified from a real game. Black has two
> enclosed dead groups, and White has a small but easy win.
> 
> The second position is a modified version of the first in which the
> dead
> groups are more obviously dead.
> 
> If I try MogoRelease3 playing as Black on position 2, it shows a 20%
> score and resigns either immediately or after a couple of moves.
> 
> If I try it on position 1, it shows a score of 70%+ for Black, and
> continues to play until White takes steps to remove the dead groups
> from
> the board. I've tested with up to 2^24 playouts.
> 
> I have tried increasing --collectorLimitTreeSize and --limitTreeSize
> (like bigMogo in the scalability study), but I can't set them much
> higher than the default on this machine without running out of memory.
> 
> I'd be interested to see if someone with a bigger computer can find out
> what resources it needs to judge this position well, and to see how
> other engines do.
> 
> Position 1
> 
> (;GM[1]FF[4]
> CA[UTF-8]
> SZ[13]
> HA[0]
> KM[0.5]
> AB[jb:kb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:ld][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
> [ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][lk][al][ck:cl][ji:jl]
> [dm][im]
> AW[ia:ja][ib][hc:jc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf][hf:jf]
> [lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk][hk:ik]
> [dl][il][bm][fl:fm][hm]
> )
> 
> Position 2
> 
> (;GM[1]FF[4]
> CA[UTF-8]
> SZ[13]
> HA[0]
> KM[0.5]
> AB[jb:mb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:md][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
> [ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][bk:ck][lk][al][cl]
> [ji:jl][im]
> AW[ia:la][ib][hc:jc][mc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf]
> [hf:jf][lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk]
> [hk:ik][dl][fl][il][bm:cm][em:fm][hm]
> )
> 
> -M-
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Re: [computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-09 Thread Magnus Persson


Quoting Matthew Woodcraft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


I've included two 13x13 positions below. In both positions it is Black's
move.



I had Valkyria3 analyze both positions on my 1.4Ghz laptop.

In Position 1, it thinks black has 53% chance of winning but after two  
minutes it is down to 45%. The principal variation (only those nodes  
that were visited at least 1000 times) is 12 ply deep, and is mainly  
L&D moves in both corners.


In position 2 it thinks black has 10.4% chance of winning initially  
but after two minutes of thinking this goes down to 3.2% which means  
it resigns, since the threshold is 10%. At the nodes at 10 ply it sees  
that white wins 100% of the time.

--
Magnus Persson
Berlin, Germany
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[computer-go] Life and Death

2008-03-09 Thread Matthew Woodcraft

I've included two 13x13 positions below. In both positions it is Black's
move.

The first position is simplified from a real game. Black has two
enclosed dead groups, and White has a small but easy win.

The second position is a modified version of the first in which the dead
groups are more obviously dead.

If I try MogoRelease3 playing as Black on position 2, it shows a 20%
score and resigns either immediately or after a couple of moves.

If I try it on position 1, it shows a score of 70%+ for Black, and
continues to play until White takes steps to remove the dead groups from
the board. I've tested with up to 2^24 playouts.

I have tried increasing --collectorLimitTreeSize and --limitTreeSize
(like bigMogo in the scalability study), but I can't set them much
higher than the default on this machine without running out of memory.

I'd be interested to see if someone with a bigger computer can find out
what resources it needs to judge this position well, and to see how
other engines do.

Position 1

(;GM[1]FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
SZ[13]
HA[0]
KM[0.5]
AB[jb:kb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:ld][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
[ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][lk][al][ck:cl][ji:jl]
[dm][im]
AW[ia:ja][ib][hc:jc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf][hf:jf]
[lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk][hk:ik]
[dl][il][bm][fl:fm][hm]
)

Position 2

(;GM[1]FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
SZ[13]
HA[0]
KM[0.5]
AB[jb:mb][cb:cc][kc][bd:cd][jd:md][be][he][cf:df][bg][gb:gh]
[ig:ih][jh:kh][eg:ei][li][aj:bj][hi:hj][bk:ck][lk][al][cl]
[ji:jl][im]
AW[ia:la][ib][hc:jc][mc][db:dd][hd:id][ce:de][ie][ke:le][bf]
[hf:jf][lf][jg:kg][mg][lh][ai:di][gi][mi][cj][ej:gj][ij][dk:fk]
[hk:ik][dl][fl][il][bm:cm][em:fm][hm]
)

-M-
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Re: [Computer-go] Life and Death

Re: [Computer-go] Life and Death

[Computer-go] Life and Death

RE: [computer-go] Life and Death

RE: [computer-go] Life and Death

Re: [computer-go] Life and Death

RE: [computer-go] Life and Death

Re: [computer-go] Life and Death

Re: [computer-go] Life and Death

RE: [computer-go] Life and Death

Re: [computer-go] Life and Death

[computer-go] Life and Death

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