Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007, Darren Cook wrote: I actually think that under Chinese rules White wins too because Black owes 1 point for playing the last (and first) move. I'd not heard that 1pt adjustment before; is it only when black plays the last move? Do you have a reference, as this page does not mention it: http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChineseCounting I got this from the AGA rules which I (falsly?) assumed to use chinese counting (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html) Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
I actually think that under Chinese rules White wins too because Black owes 1 point for playing the last (and first) move. ... I got this from the AGA rules which I (falsly?) assumed to use chinese counting (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html) I only saw this in section 4, on handicap games: If the players have agreed to use area counting to score the game (Rule 12), White receives an additional point of compensation for each Black handicap stone after the first. (Black would otherwise gain an additional point of area for each handicap stone.) Notice it says, for each stone after the first. So no compensation for the first stone. Darren ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007, Darren Cook wrote: I got this from the AGA rules which I (falsly?) assumed to use chinese counting (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html) I only saw this in section 4, on handicap games: If the players have agreed to use area counting to score the game (Rule 12), White receives an additional point of compensation for each Black handicap stone after the first. (Black would otherwise gain an additional point of area for each handicap stone.) 11) The Last Move: White must make the last move--if necessary, an additional pass, with a stone passed to the opponent as usual. The total number of stones played or passed by the two players during the entire game must be equal. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007, Christoph Birk wrote: On Sat, 14 Jul 2007, Darren Cook wrote: I got this from the AGA rules which I (falsly?) assumed to use chinese counting (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html) At one time, the Chinese rules compensated White with an extra point when Black got the last move. If Black's last move was to fill a ko he or she had won, however, it was deemed unfair to penalize him or her, so eventually the Chinese removed this proviso. in: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.commentary.html It looks like that rule is obsolete. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
I got this from the AGA rules which I (falsly?) assumed to use chinese counting (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html) At one time, the Chinese rules compensated White with an extra point when Black got the last move. If Black's last move was to fill a ko he or she had won, however, it was deemed unfair to penalize him or her, so eventually the Chinese removed this proviso. in: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.commentary.html It looks like that rule is obsolete. Thanks for finding that, as I was getting confused :-). It would've affect the scoring of monte-carlo playouts. Darren P.S. Is the pass stone also passed over when territory scoring in AGA rules? That sounds like the score will deviate from Japanese scoring quite frequently. E.g. games often end with a small ko, and when one player runs out of ko threats he will pass (assuming no dame available), the other player will fill the ko, then each player will pass. If pass costs a point it hurts. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
This extra bonus for black is commonly known by Japanese Go players who know Chinese rules. That is, the result of a game is the same if either rules is used (Japanese or Chinese) in simple games (i.e. no Seki etc.) except this extra bonus for black when the number of moves of the game is odd. MC Go programs may need to adjust this one point. - gg Darren Cook: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I got this from the AGA rules which I (falsly?) assumed to use chinese counting (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html) At one time, the Chinese rules compensated White with an extra point when Black got the last move. If Black's last move was to fill a ko he or she had won, however, it was deemed unfair to penalize him or her, so eventually the Chinese removed this proviso. in: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.commentary.html It looks like that rule is obsolete. Thanks for finding that, as I was getting confused :-). It would've affect the scoring of monte-carlo playouts. Darren P.S. Is the pass stone also passed over when territory scoring in AGA rules? That sounds like the score will deviate from Japanese scoring quite frequently. E.g. games often end with a small ko, and when one player runs out of ko threats he will pass (assuming no dame available), the other player will fill the ko, then each player will pass. If pass costs a point it hurts. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kato) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
Why not put both version on CGOS and find out? - Don We have at the moment 3 GUIs and each of them does not support the protocoll. The main GUI is from GoAhead. Its written in old Atari-Basic and according to Peter Woitke its difficult to integrate it. ChessBase has promised a better GUI, but they are busy with other things and Go has obviously low priority on their list. But thats not their fault, because my input was even less. I have written a C# Prototype-GUI. But I have no time and also not much interest to develop this further. I have good jobs in industry. Working 2 weeks on an GUI costs me indirectly 5.000 Euro. CGOS is not worth this money. Chrilly ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
New lesson learned. It depends on the rule set if something is correct or a blunder. So far the Go-masters told me, it does not matter, its practically the same. Obviously its not. This is not some weired, constructed position, it really happened and it does not look strange at all. Chrilly - Original Message - From: Erik van der Werf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT) On 7/11/07, chrilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Attached is an interesting testposition which occured in UCT-Suzie against Peter-Woitke. If black plays 37 c4 the game is lost by 0.5 points. If Black passes, white gets a lot of threats. Black can choose between a safe loss, or some risk and a win. UCT-Suzie and the public domain version of Crazy-Stone played the save loss. Seems like you're mixing up Territory and Area scoring. Under area scoring rules the programs can strengthen their (final) position by playing in their own territory. (Crazystone as Black would win under Chinese rules) The example illustrates why Japanese rules provide a slightly more interesting endgame. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
We have at the moment 3 GUIs and each of them does not support the protocoll. I have written a C# Prototype-GUI. But I have no time and also not much interest to develop this further. .. Chrilly Hi Chrilly, GoTraxx has a C# class that interfaces directly with CGOS. Should be fairly trivial to incorporate especially if it already knows GTP. The source code is up at CodePlex. Regarding your prototype GUI, would you consider donating it the open source community, especially if you don't have much interest in it anymore? I could use it. Right now I use GoGui for the GUI, which is great, but sometimes I'd like to display internal data during debug for which GoGui would be too difficult to use. Phil___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
it's much more likely not to matter on a real (19x19) board. s. --- chrilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: New lesson learned. It depends on the rule set if something is correct or a blunder. So far the Go-masters told me, it does not matter, its practically the same. Obviously its not. This is not some weired, constructed position, it really happened and it does not look strange at all. Chrilly - Original Message - From: Erik van der Werf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT) On 7/11/07, chrilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Attached is an interesting testposition which occured in UCT-Suzie against Peter-Woitke. If black plays 37 c4 the game is lost by 0.5 points. If Black passes, white gets a lot of threats. Black can choose between a safe loss, or some risk and a win. UCT-Suzie and the public domain version of Crazy-Stone played the save loss. Seems like you're mixing up Territory and Area scoring. Under area scoring rules the programs can strengthen their (final) position by playing in their own territory. (Crazystone as Black would win under Chinese rules) The example illustrates why Japanese rules provide a slightly more interesting endgame. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
I haven't been working on Go at all recently so here's my UI code. It's not great. I only used it for testing and feedback. It's not meant to look nice. Perhaps someone else can also use it. www.fantius.com/Go.UI.rar ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
I forgot to mention, it's C#. On 7/12/07, Chris Fant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't been working on Go at all recently so here's my UI code. It's not great. I only used it for testing and feedback. It's not meant to look nice. Perhaps someone else can also use it. www.fantius.com/Go.UI.rar ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
Darren Cook wrote: You know you can output internal data to stderr and gogui will pick it up and show it in the shell window? Yes; I use the stderr output feature extensively. In fact, GoGui can be extended via customizable analyze commands via GTP, which among other things, can display graphics (squares, circles, text, etc). [Thanks Markus Enzenberger for such a great program!] But there are only two drawbacks with this approach. One, it only works as a result of a customized GTP command. Sometimes I want it to display debugging information data while the GTP command is still executing (or maybe as an addition to an existing GTP command). Two, it's not interactive - it doesn't have any ability to ask simple questions, Yes | No, etc. The first I think would be easy to add to GoGui, if it would listen to the stderr and given a trigger string, response type (plist, gfx, etc) and data it could display that immediately in the GUI. The second probably isn't possible since the stderr is output only and not bi-directional. Or did you mean it is too much bother to connect with gogui while also running your code in a debugger? That would be great! How do you do that (without going through a million zillion steps each time)? I use Visual Studio. Phil___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
On 7/12/07, Phil G [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But there are only two drawbacks with this approach. One, it only works as a result of a customized GTP command. Sometimes I want it to display debugging information data while the GTP command is still executing (or maybe as an addition to an existing GTP command). Two, it's not interactive - it doesn't have any ability to ask simple questions, Yes | No, etc. The first I think would be easy to add to GoGui, if it would listen to the stderr and given a trigger string, response type (plist, gfx, etc) and data it could display that immediately in the GUI. The second probably isn't possible since the stderr is output only and not bi-directional. This is really one of the big reasons why some alternative to GTP should be created. We'd all like a little more flexibility. If someone came out with a non-binary bidirectional format that was a competitor to GTP, I'd support it. I'd also be willing to support slight variants to SGF that use positions such as C4 instead of wacky things that don't match the notation everyone else uses and vary depending on the board size. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
Jason wrote: I'd also be willing to support slight variants to SGF that use positions such as C4 instead of wacky things that don't match the notation everyone else uses and vary depending on the board size. Anders Kierulf's SmartGo program has the option to use standard Go coordinates in SGF files. I think it knows which coordinate system to use based on if it has a digit in it or not. And for style, the letter in the coordinate is in uppercase. I plan to add support for this in GoTraxx (but continue to use SGF coordinates until other programs, like GoGui, support this too). - Phil___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
On 7/12/07, Phil G [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jason wrote: I'd also be willing to support slight variants to SGF that use positions such as C4 instead of wacky things that don't match the notation everyone else uses and vary depending on the board size. Anders Kierulf's SmartGo program has the option to use standard Go coordinates in SGF files. I think it knows which coordinate system to use based on if it has a digit in it or not. And for style, the letter in the coordinate is in uppercase. I plan to add support for this in GoTraxx (but continue to use SGF coordinates until other programs, like GoGui, support this too). - Phil I've submitted this as a feature request (1752711) for GoGUI http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=1752711group_id=59117atid=489967 ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007, chrilly wrote: New lesson learned. It depends on the rule set if something is correct or a blunder. So far the Go-masters told me, it does not matter, its practically the same. Obviously its not. This is not some weired, constructed position, it really happened and it does not look strange at all. I actually think that under Chinese rules White wins too because Black owes 1 point for playing the last (and first) move. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
Or did you mean it is too much bother to connect with gogui while also running your code in a debugger? That would be great! How do you do that (without going through a million zillion steps each time)? I use Visual Studio. Can Visual Studio connect to a running process? On linux you'd do something like: 1. Start gogui 2. Start your program 3. Use ps | grep your_program_name to find the PID 4. gdb your_program_name its_PID (Not tested.) I find debuggers unsuitable for go - it is too hard to set breakpoints saying stop here when you are at depth ply 17 and the move A5 was played at ply 13. So I usually use a debug log where I output variable values and ascii board positions. Darren ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
New lesson learned. It depends on the rule set if something is correct or a blunder. So far the Go-masters told me, it does not matter, its practically the same. Obviously its not. This is not some weired, constructed position, it really happened and it does not look strange at all. I actually think that under Chinese rules White wins too because Black owes 1 point for playing the last (and first) move. I'd not heard that 1pt adjustment before; is it only when black plays the last move? Do you have a reference, as this page does not mention it: http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChineseCounting Darren ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
Attached is an interesting testposition which occured in UCT-Suzie against Peter-Woitke. If black plays 37 c4 the game is lost by 0.5 points. If Black passes, white gets a lot of threats. Black can choose between a safe loss, or some risk and a win. UCT-Suzie and the public domain version of Crazy-Stone played the save loss. See also comments in the sgf-Files by Peter Woitke. Alpha-Beta-Suzie plays the position right. If one replaces for such situations the Rollout by the AB-Eval also the UCT version plays correct. According our tests AB-Suzie is on 9x9 slightly stronger than UCT-Suzie. But UCT is plain-vannila, about 100h development time. AB-Suzie about 1500 h (mainly by Peter Woitke). The h/Elo ratio is much better for UCT-Suzie. Replacing always the Rollout by the AB-Eval is worse. With other words, UCT is not in generall the better tree-search. It is better for a Rollout-Eval. I think AB-Suzie is for humans more difficult, because it plays more aggressive. But sometimes too aggressive. If its ahead, it plays still risky. The UCT-version plays such positions safly home. The test is biased, because the human is always Peter Woitke. The Go-European Championship in Villach/Austria will be a better test. Chrilly UCT_verrueckt_02.sgf Description: Binary data ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
Why not put both version on CGOS and find out? - Don On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 23:17 +0200, chrilly wrote: Attached is an interesting testposition which occured in UCT-Suzie against Peter-Woitke. If black plays 37 c4 the game is lost by 0.5 points. If Black passes, white gets a lot of threats. Black can choose between a safe loss, or some risk and a win. UCT-Suzie and the public domain version of Crazy-Stone played the save loss. See also comments in the sgf-Files by Peter Woitke. Alpha-Beta-Suzie plays the position right. If one replaces for such situations the Rollout by the AB-Eval also the UCT version plays correct. According our tests AB-Suzie is on 9x9 slightly stronger than UCT-Suzie. But UCT is plain-vannila, about 100h development time. AB-Suzie about 1500 h (mainly by Peter Woitke). The h/Elo ratio is much better for UCT-Suzie. Replacing always the Rollout by the AB-Eval is worse. With other words, UCT is not in generall the better tree-search. It is better for a Rollout-Eval. I think AB-Suzie is for humans more difficult, because it plays more aggressive. But sometimes too aggressive. If its ahead, it plays still risky. The UCT-version plays such positions safly home. The test is biased, because the human is always Peter Woitke. The Go-European Championship in Villach/Austria will be a better test. Chrilly ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
Chrilly wrote: Attached is an interesting testposition which occured in UCT-Suzie against Peter-Woitke. If black plays 37 c4 the game is lost by 0.5 points. If Black passes, white gets a lot of threats. Black can choose between a safe loss, or some risk and a win. UCT-Suzie and the public domain version of Crazy-Stone played the save loss. See also comments in the sgf-Files by Peter Woitke. I don't know about Suzie but I'm fairly certain that CrazyStone only knows Chinese scoring, in which case black is still ahead by 0.5 after 37 C4. /Gunnar ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Interesting Test Position (for UCT)
On 7/11/07, chrilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Attached is an interesting testposition which occured in UCT-Suzie against Peter-Woitke. If black plays 37 c4 the game is lost by 0.5 points. If Black passes, white gets a lot of threats. Black can choose between a safe loss, or some risk and a win. UCT-Suzie and the public domain version of Crazy-Stone played the save loss. Seems like you're mixing up Territory and Area scoring. Under area scoring rules the programs can strengthen their (final) position by playing in their own territory. (Crazystone as Black would win under Chinese rules) The example illustrates why Japanese rules provide a slightly more interesting endgame. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
