Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
On Jan 14, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Mark Boon wrote: It's difficult to get hard data about this. Go is only the most popular game in Korea. In other countries like Japan and China it comes second by far to a local chess variation. Possibly Chess is more ingrained in Western culture than Go is in Asia, I don't know really. But Chess has the population-numbers of West vs. East against it. If there are more chess-players than Go- players in the world then it won't be by much. But the Go market is probably a lot bigger. Look only at the money in professional Go tournaments. It's probably an order of magnitude more than the money in professional Chess. But I must admit this is just a guess of mine. Mark Oh la la, The origin of chess and go isn't far away from each. Chess originates from India, go not far away from there, if you look at it from a global perspective. Both go and chess are really similar in that they are symmetric games. From strong player perspective there isn't that much difference in the game in intellectual experience. A good chessplayer can be a good go player and vice versa. Quite the opposite with the zillions of checkers versions there are. Checkers is NOT a symmetric game. If Chess would get added again to the olympic sports (which i doubt happens, but you never know how political decision taking takes place) that would be good news for China's women team. Maybe they lose on board 1 sometimes, but the other boards they'll win all games. Chess is becoming really big in China now (heh i'm still looking for a girlfriend, know a Chinese female go or chessplayer?) I'm quite sure chess is by now bigger in China than go there. Of course the step from Chinese chess to chess is real real tiny as well. Chess gets played in every nation on the planet. Tiniest chess is probably in Japan. Shogi and go seem to be more popular there. South Korea used to be real tiny also for chess, a new initiative there might boost it a tad more. Chess' advantage is of course the fact that the game is a lot quicker than go. Now for serious, strong players, that is not an advantage, but for the 'big masses' it is. Chess computers used to get exported to 105+ nations world wide. As for the rest of the planet, with exception of Japan and Korea, go doesn't exist. There is no doubt about that some very succesful chess and go players to be very very wealthy. If you're good in that game, you have good brains of course, everyone likes to pay you, most chessplayers even get asked to run a business of some billionair type guys. I don't doubt that's identical in go. Whether 1 go player has more billions worth of wealth than a chessplayer, that's not very interesting. As for the 'subtop', there chess is quadratic bigger than go. How many people live from chess? Well thousands. Amazing yet true. Whereas in a few nations like Netherlands the number of chessplayers that are a member of a federation is getting less, realize the tiny size of the nation here, netherlands has exactly 16.5 million inhabitants. Even then each town still has a chessclub. Chess is total booming in India, China, Turkey and Spain. Just these 3 nations are already nearly 3 billion people. When i was in China, i saw zero go boards anywhere. Vincent On Jan 12, 2009, at 9:22 AM, steve uurtamo wrote: i think you might be estimating this incorrectly. s. On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Gian-Carlo Pascutto g...@sjeng.org wrote: Ingo Althöfer wrote: What prevents you from freezing in your chess activities for the next few months and hobbying full (free) time on computer go. The amount of chess players compared to the amount of go players. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
hi, You're miscounting here completely again. Counting the number of federation members is a bad idea. Count the number of people who know a game and regurarly play it. Draughts (internatoinal 10x10 checkers, using polish rules) is really tiny. It is not culture to get a member of a club in a nation like Netherlands anymore, netherlands is a very weird nation in that respect. Yet many learn the game. You shouldn't let yourself get led by federation numbers, but by the number of people who know a game and play it regurarly. Active official competition players is simply a bad measure. The online chess servers are indeed a bad measure. It is spreaded over a number of servers. Yahoo has a daily load of about 7000 that are nonstop playing, chessclub.com which used to be a paid club and still is, it has about a million who visit, yet as a membership has a cost of 50 dollar, which is 500 yuan nearly a year, that's a price i'm not willing to pay either. chessclub offers free membership to titled players. Yet i'm titled and i have to pay how about that? Having 2 dutch titles and a fidemaster title seemingly doesn't count :) The strongest players are at chessclub.com It's about 2500 nonstop (so 24 hours load) now, chessbase is becoming a tad larger now, note also a paid chess club. About 3000 load. Yet again you have to either buy a product of them for 50+ euro for a free 1 year membership, or you have to pay 25 euro a year for membership. There is a range of servers. Each one has about a 500-1000. Most are paid. There chess is really doing bad of course. Experience learns when you setup a free server with a good client that you soon get a huge load. 5000+ is very normal. There is a lot of tiny communities with a 400+ players 24 hours a day online. that's what you get when there is 105+ nations playing chess. Each federation wants their own server. Yet they do not want to pay for it. FIDE really is doing very bad there. Their problem would be they go to commercial companies which have all their own interest, instead of using a few of their guys who already work in organisations and are objective. Vincent On Jan 14, 2009, at 4:06 PM, Mark Boon wrote: On Jan 14, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Thomas Lavergne wrote: Couting xiangqi and shogi players as chess players is a bit unfair... Sorry if I caused confusion, I didn't mean to count those as Chess- players. I just stated that to show that despite large population- numbers in say China, most of those people play Xiang-Qi rather than Wei-Qi. This in contrast to a large country like Russia where I believe Chess is by far the most popular. In Holland however, Chess comes only at third place (or maybe even lower) after Bridge and Draughts. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
i think you might be estimating this incorrectly. s. On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Gian-Carlo Pascutto g...@sjeng.org wrote: Ingo Althöfer wrote: What prevents you from freezing in your chess activities for the next few months and hobbying full (free) time on computer go. The amount of chess players compared to the amount of go players. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
It's difficult to get hard data about this. Go is only the most popular game in Korea. In other countries like Japan and China it comes second by far to a local chess variation. Possibly Chess is more ingrained in Western culture than Go is in Asia, I don't know really. But Chess has the population-numbers of West vs. East against it. If there are more chess-players than Go- players in the world then it won't be by much. But the Go market is probably a lot bigger. Look only at the money in professional Go tournaments. It's probably an order of magnitude more than the money in professional Chess. But I must admit this is just a guess of mine. Mark On Jan 12, 2009, at 9:22 AM, steve uurtamo wrote: i think you might be estimating this incorrectly. s. On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Gian-Carlo Pascutto g...@sjeng.org wrote: Ingo Althöfer wrote: What prevents you from freezing in your chess activities for the next few months and hobbying full (free) time on computer go. The amount of chess players compared to the amount of go players. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
In message 9495573f-28cd-4ce0-b88a-f5443466a...@gmail.com, Mark Boon tesujisoftw...@gmail.com writes It's difficult to get hard data about this. Go is only the most popular game in Korea. In other countries like Japan and China it comes second by far to a local chess variation. Possibly Chess is more ingrained in Western culture than Go is in Asia, I don't know really. But Chess has the population-numbers of West vs. East against it. If there are more chess-players than Go- players in the world then it won't be by much. But the Go market is probably a lot bigger. Look only at the money in professional Go tournaments. It's probably an order of magnitude more than the money in professional Chess. But I must admit this is just a guess of mine. When I last checked server usage, in 2004, the busiest Go server usually had over 20,000 Go players connected. This was much more than any chess server. It (www.ourgame.com) has changed its interface since then, and without being able to read Chinese, I cannot check its current usage. Nick -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:42:53AM -0200, Mark Boon wrote: It's difficult to get hard data about this. Go is only the most popular game in Korea. In other countries like Japan and China it comes second by far to a local chess variation. Couting xiangqi and shogi players as chess players is a bit unfair... They are called chinese chess and japan chess only in the occidental word due to strange looking names that we always forgot and a few similarity. These two games are very different from occidental chess. Ok, the board is similar (9x9 instead of 8x8), you have to capture a king or similar, and some pieces are similar. But the games themselves are very different. Especialy shogi with the hability two return captured pieces on the board need very different strategy and playing style. For me, if you count xiangqi and shogi players with chess players you have to include a lot of others similar games. Why not including chekers or amazones ;-) Tom -- Thomas LavergneEntia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem. (Guillaume d'Ockham) thomas.laver...@reveurs.orghttp://oniros.org ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
On Jan 14, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Thomas Lavergne wrote: Couting xiangqi and shogi players as chess players is a bit unfair... Sorry if I caused confusion, I didn't mean to count those as Chess- players. I just stated that to show that despite large population- numbers in say China, most of those people play Xiang-Qi rather than Wei-Qi. This in contrast to a large country like Russia where I believe Chess is by far the most popular. In Holland however, Chess comes only at third place (or maybe even lower) after Bridge and Draughts. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
I have heard 100 million as an estimate of the total number of Go players worldwide. - George On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Mark Boon tesujisoftw...@gmail.com wrote: It's difficult to get hard data about this. Go is only the most popular game in Korea. In other countries like Japan and China it comes second by far to a local chess variation. Possibly Chess is more ingrained in Western culture than Go is in Asia, I don't know really. But Chess has the population-numbers of West vs. East against it. If there are more chess-players than Go-players in the world then it won't be by much. But the Go market is probably a lot bigger. Look only at the money in professional Go tournaments. It's probably an order of magnitude more than the money in professional Chess. But I must admit this is just a guess of mine. Mark On Jan 12, 2009, at 9:22 AM, steve uurtamo wrote: i think you might be estimating this incorrectly. s. On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Gian-Carlo Pascutto g...@sjeng.org wrote: Ingo Althöfer wrote: What prevents you from freezing in your chess activities for the next few months and hobbying full (free) time on computer go. The amount of chess players compared to the amount of go players. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
There have been several hundred thousand Igowin downloads, so many westerners have been exposed to the game. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of George Dahl Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:59 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona I have heard 100 million as an estimate of the total number of Go players worldwide. - George On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Mark Boon tesujisoftw...@gmail.com wrote: It's difficult to get hard data about this. Go is only the most popular game in Korea. In other countries like Japan and China it comes second by far to a local chess variation. Possibly Chess is more ingrained in Western culture than Go is in Asia, I don't know really. But Chess has the population-numbers of West vs. East against it. If there are more chess-players than Go-players in the world then it won't be by much. But the Go market is probably a lot bigger. Look only at the money in professional Go tournaments. It's probably an order of magnitude more than the money in professional Chess. But I must admit this is just a guess of mine. Mark On Jan 12, 2009, at 9:22 AM, steve uurtamo wrote: i think you might be estimating this incorrectly. s. On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Gian-Carlo Pascutto g...@sjeng.org wrote: Ingo Althöfer wrote: What prevents you from freezing in your chess activities for the next few months and hobbying full (free) time on computer go. The amount of chess players compared to the amount of go players. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
Bridge is also far more popular than chess in the USA. -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:07 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona On Jan 14, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Thomas Lavergne wrote: Couting xiangqi and shogi players as chess players is a bit unfair... Sorry if I caused confusion, I didn't mean to count those as Chess- players. I just stated that to show that despite large population- numbers in say China, most of those people play Xiang-Qi rather than Wei-Qi. This in contrast to a large country like Russia where I believe Chess is by far the most popular. In Holland however, Chess comes only at third place (or maybe even lower) after Bridge and Draughts. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
I found a Mind Sports slide presentation which says the following: Go originated in South-East Asia, and the majority of Go players and fans will be found in that area. Private initiative characterises the organisation of Go which explains the strong ties with the media and business. GO is well recognized by Asian people institutions In China, the government strongly supports the organisation and promotion of Go. In Japan Go is recognised as an instrument contributing to key elements of human life, such as young people’s education, leisure activities, mental care for the aged, promotion of culture. In Korea the demand for Go is rising rapidly. A number of Korean youngsters are the top players in the world. They are role models for the Korean youth. In many schools Go is part of the curriculum. Many Go teachers and promoters have travelled around the world and popularised the game of Go. Nowadays, Go is heavily broadcast in Asia: 15 Chinese television networks. Go broke record of TV viewers on CCTV. 3 Korean TV channels are dedicated solely to GO. Japan’s National Station (NHK) organises a tournament running throughout the year which is broadcast for two hours every Sunday, attracting a very large audience. Mind Sports claims there are 60 million Go players and 300 million chess players worldwide. The usgo.org site claims that there are 100 million go players worldwide. I have been told by a Korean professional that the popularity of Baduk in Korea is rising quite rapidly. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com -- Libertarians Do It With Consent! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
If we are counting card games (no longer games of perfect information), then I think poker is also more popular than chess in the USA. Poker can mean many games of course, but maybe hold-em alone is still more popular than chess. Most of the games are illegal, of course. David Fotland wrote: Bridge is also far more popular than chess in the USA. -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Mark Boon Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:07 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona On Jan 14, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Thomas Lavergne wrote: Couting xiangqi and shogi players as chess players is a bit unfair... Sorry if I caused confusion, I didn't mean to count those as Chess- players. I just stated that to show that despite large population- numbers in say China, most of those people play Xiang-Qi rather than Wei-Qi. This in contrast to a large country like Russia where I believe Chess is by far the most popular. In Holland however, Chess comes only at third place (or maybe even lower) after Bridge and Draughts. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
Hello Gian-Carlo, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: The computer chess forums are ablaze with protests, because ... [But] the decision seems to have been cast in stone, with no amount of protest still being able to reverse it. I think, this is indeed the case. But at least YOU would have reason not only to complain all time. You are one of the few strong chess programmers who are in the comfortable situation to have another game at stake. What prevents you from freezing in your chess activities for the next few months and hobbying full (free) time on computer go. There are enough goals left: at least, in Beijing there were still 1.5 teams ahead of Leela ;-) (MFoG and MoGo on 19x19, MFoG on 9x9). And for computer go, there are no hardware limitations given for Pamplona. Best regards, Ingo PS: According to the leading German chess magazine (SchachMagazin 64, Issue January 2009) Jaap van den Herik claimed in a talk during the (traditional) chess olympiad in Dresden (in November 2008) that chess will likely be solved around 2035... -- Sensationsangebot verlängert: GMX FreeDSL - Telefonanschluss + DSL für nur 16,37 Euro/mtl.!* http://dsl.gmx.de/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K1308T4569a ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: GCP on ICGA Events 2009 in Pamplona
Ingo Althöfer wrote: What prevents you from freezing in your chess activities for the next few months and hobbying full (free) time on computer go. The amount of chess players compared to the amount of go players. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
