Re: [computer-go] chess/go for handhelds
Though I'm not good at PDA market in Japan, reading Japanese wikipedia, it's seems very small. Sony, which had been making and selling an original Palm, CLIE serie, stopped manifacturing and retired from PDA 2005, for example. No Japanese company sell Palm devices now. I've checked Japanese largest "price.com" site and found that no Palm's are sold on the net now in Japan. -Hideki Mark Boon: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >What's Palm's market in Japan? Does it actually exist? > >I put Goliath on my SonyEricsson phone, only to find out that all >Japanese phones have a completely different platform. > >Mark > >___ >computer-go mailing list >computer-go@computer-go.org >http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kato) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] chess/go for handhelds
First of all, I apologize for the "one word per line"-quoting in my previous message. It apparently has to do with plain/text, "Yahoo Mail Beta", and firefox not playing well together. (I have switched back to "Yahoo Mail Classic" as a work around.) --- Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In response to Ben's post about Ogo not being significantly stronger, I > will present what I have found in my tests. > > 1. I never tested 19x19, I can't say whether that is true or not. I was most interested in 19x19 performance, but I tested on 9x9 as well. > 2. I hand tested 9x9 against AIGO at it's median level (level 3 of 5) > and the match was lop-sided in Ogo's favor after 50 games. It would > be more lop-sided at level 4 and 5. There is no comparison. I didn't do any head-to-head comparisons. I trust your results. The "significant" strength I was referring to was the ability to give me an interesting game. Even with handicap stones, neither program was able to do so (I am 18kyu). The real target would of course be a challenging 19x19 game with no handicap. Strength of 10-15kyu would be nice. 1kyu would be awesome. > 3. On older palm devices, Ogo would be slow at level 5. But on > modern devices with ARM processors Ogo takes about 10 seconds at the > highest level for 9x9.That is for a Tungsten T3, some ARM devices > are a little slower. (T3 is 400 MHZ) I had a Palm V and a Sony Clie SJ22. I tested at the highest level of each program and found neither to be strong enough to be a challenge, even with handicap stones. > If you play both AIGO and Ogo, AIGO may seem stronger because it is > pattern based and does't do the MC scoring people hate, but that's just > an illusion. People also though Eliza was smart and understood things > because it displayed sentences based on simple hard coded patterns. I did play both, and I didn't conclude that AIGO was stronger than Ogo, just that neither was strong enough for me. I did like that AIGO played faster, but I would have probably bought a faster Palm if Ogo were strong enough be challenging on 19x19. > There are no Palm programs that actually play very strong, so AIGO is > likely a better choice depending on what you expect out of it. It > saves games and plays them back and it plays a pretty good move > instantly - a nice feature to have in this instant gratification world > we live in! > > Which is why I'm trying to improve Ogo. I simply want it to play a > better move faster.If I could make it play significantly faster and > significantly better, it would be pretty awesome as a toy program. I totally agree with you. A stronger and faster Ogo would be very nice. However, I think the Palm platform is fairly dead. A smartphone with Linux under the hood (as the iPhone has unix a la OS X) may be an easier and more powerful platform for you to target. > It's not clear to me that is even a good idea having a slower high level > - because most people are not satisfied to play anything less than the > "highest level."It's a phenomenon the retail market takes advantage > of, many people are reluctant to buy anything less than the top of the > line model if they can afford it. Only the best for me! I don't want > the dumbed down version! I agree here as well. People want the strongest program they can buy, but they want it to play nearly instantly. Anything more than a few seconds per move is too slow. Most people want their handheld to provide a quick game when they have a few moments to kill. If they had more time, they would play against GnuGo on their PC or a real person. I think your ideas to adapt your program to play better with fewer resources are certainly worth exploring and could lead to some interesting insights applicable to your full-blown program. I certainly don't want to discourage you in your efforts. I just wanted to chime in with my experiences of Go on the Palm. Ben. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] chess/go for handhelds
I like AIGO too.It has more features than Ogo and a better user interface with nicer graphics in my opinion and I bought a copy. In response to Ben's post about Ogo not being significantly stronger, I will present what I have found in my tests. 1. I never tested 19x19, I can't say whether that is true or not. 2. I hand tested 9x9 against AIGO at it's median level (level 3 of 5) and the match was lop-sided in Ogo's favor after 50 games. It would be more lop-sided at level 4 and 5. There is no comparison. 3. On older palm devices, Ogo would be slow at level 5. But on modern devices with ARM processors Ogo takes about 10 seconds at the highest level for 9x9.That is for a Tungsten T3, some ARM devices are a little slower. (T3 is 400 MHZ) 4. At 19x19, level 5 takes about 2 minutes even with ARM.But if you use level 3 it takes only about 10 seconds per move. Ogo use the standard MC scoring method that people often complain about. I had someone write to me complaining that it sucks because it sometimes "even moves into atari." Ogo almost never moves into atari when it really matters. Most people don't know the difference between a good move, bad move, and a move that doesn't make any difference in Chinese scoring. If you play both AIGO and Ogo, AIGO may seem stronger because it is pattern based and does't do the MC scoring people hate, but that's just an illusion. People also though Eliza was smart and understood things because it displayed sentences based on simple hard coded patterns. There are no Palm programs that actually play very strong, so AIGO is likely a better choice depending on what you expect out of it. It saves games and plays them back and it plays a pretty good move instantly - a nice feature to have in this instant gratification world we live in! Which is why I'm trying to improve Ogo. I simply want it to play a better move faster.If I could make it play significantly faster and significantly better, it would be pretty awesome as a toy program. It's not clear to me that is even a good idea having a slower high level - because most people are not satisfied to play anything less than the "highest level."It's a phenomenon the retail market takes advantage of, many people are reluctant to buy anything less than the top of the line model if they can afford it. Only the best for me! I don't want the dumbed down version! - Don Joshua Shriver wrote: > I've greatly enjoyed Aigo over the years. I have it on my palm and > have upgrade hardware 3x and each time the author has kindly given me > a new registration code for free. Think it only cost $8 and well > worth it. > > Just my $0.02 > -Josh > > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] chess/go for handhelds
What's Palm's market in Japan? Does it actually exist? I put Goliath on my SonyEricsson phone, only to find out that all Japanese phones have a completely different platform. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] chess/go for handhelds
> That makes sense, considering past programs. But Don Dailey is apparently on > the trail of a faster and better player for the Palm. > On the one hand, I wonder if the Palm architecture has reached end-of-life. > But on the other hand, discovering how to improve Go programs for tiny > computers may lead to design breakthroughs which can also be useful for > today's multi-gigabyte desktops with dual and quad cores. > The palm platform is heading towards linux. It will be rather like what apple did with macs, a unix OS underneath but with their own window manager, look and feel. If they don't hurry up, they could be in trouble because CE has been gaining ground fast. I believe there are a lot of people who are looking for an excuse not to buy Microsoft, but they must have a feasible alternative. And you are right, I feel that it can be a real benefit learning to how to make progress with limited resources. There will likely be lessons applicable to the "big" programs. > I like where Don is going with the idea of using analysis to create a table > of position values which could guide playouts and search - it may lead to > some more widely applicable optimizations, improving the overall quality of > play. > > The current study at http://cgos.boardspace.net/study/index.html seems to > flatten after a certain number of doublings. This may be related to memory > starvation. Methods which work better on small architectures might also help > when a gigabyte is not enough. They may suggest ways to optimize the use of > cache memory on today's CPUs. Algorithms which enable slow processors to play > adequately may also improve the performance of gigahertz CPUs. > > "Tiny" is relative. Some of my earliest programs were written for a TRS 80 > with 48 K ( yes, kilobytes ) of RAM. I knew a fellow who wrote a Go program > back in the day for a 64 K Z80-based machine with a 1 MHz ( Megahertz ) > clock. It wasn't very good, but it was fast enough. > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] chess/go for handhelds
I've greatly enjoyed Aigo over the years. I have it on my palm and have upgrade hardware 3x and each time the author has kindly given me a new registration code for free. Think it only cost $8 and well worth it. Just my $0.02 -Josh ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] chess/go for handhelds
From: Ben Shoemaker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >I used a Palm for many years. I believe Chess Genius was a great success because it was quite fast (nearly instant response time) yet it was strong enough to give the average user a good game. All the Go programs I played on the Palm were either too slow and/or too weak. I believe AIGO for Palm was the most enjoyable overall, but it was quite weak, even for me (I am only 18kyu). (It was also available in a Japanese language version.) I tried OGO, but it was incredibly slow on my Palm, and not significantly stronger than AIGO. >The new handhelds (WindowsMobile/PocketPC, Smartphones, and iPhones) can all run versions of GnuGo which I are much faster and stronger than anything that was available for the Palm platform. If they can't already support the latest version of GnuGo, they will soon enough. I just don't see the Palm platform being able to compete, since it is hardly used anymore. >Gnugo for WindowsMobile/PocketPC and Smartphone: http://vieka.com/gnugo/ >Gnugo for iPhone: http://www.robota.nl/products/iPhone%20iGo.html > I say keep developing for the general CPU and wait for the handheld platforms to catch up to your requirements. That makes sense, considering past programs. But Don Dailey is apparently on the trail of a faster and better player for the Palm. On the one hand, I wonder if the Palm architecture has reached end-of-life. But on the other hand, discovering how to improve Go programs for tiny computers may lead to design breakthroughs which can also be useful for today's multi-gigabyte desktops with dual and quad cores. I like where Don is going with the idea of using analysis to create a table of position values which could guide playouts and search - it may lead to some more widely applicable optimizations, improving the overall quality of play. The current study at http://cgos.boardspace.net/study/index.html seems to flatten after a certain number of doublings. This may be related to memory starvation. Methods which work better on small architectures might also help when a gigabyte is not enough. They may suggest ways to optimize the use of cache memory on today's CPUs. Algorithms which enable slow processors to play adequately may also improve the performance of gigahertz CPUs. "Tiny" is relative. Some of my earliest programs were written for a TRS 80 with 48 K ( yes, kilobytes ) of RAM. I knew a fellow who wrote a Go program back in the day for a 64 K Z80-based machine with a 1 MHz ( Megahertz ) clock. It wasn't very good, but it was fast enough. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] chess/go for handhelds
>> Ian wrote: >> I'm surprised that the big names in Go programming a decade ago >> haven't ported their programs to the small handheld platforms. I only >> know of AI Go for the Nintendo DS (Many Faces). In the chess arena, >> Richard Lang ported his last Mephisto program from the 80s (Roma) to >> the Palm and then to the PocketPC. Chess Genius is now one of the top >> selling games of any kind on these platforms. The authors of the >> strong programs Shredder and HIARCS have also followed suit. I would >> have thought this a vast untapped market, especially in Asia where >> gadgets are so prevalent. >Don wrote: >You would think that, but Ogo sold only a few hundred copies, and most >of them in Europe and the USA. I don't know if this is true, but I >heard that Asian markets are difficult to penetrate and that even with >the internet you cannot expect to get many sales. I did get SOME >sales from those places, but very few relative to Europe and USA. I used a Palm for many years. I believe Chess Genius was a great success because it was quite fast (nearly instant response time) yet it was strong enough to give the average user a good game. All the Go programs I played on the Palm were either too slow and/or too weak. I believe AIGO for Palm was the most enjoyable overall, but it was quite weak, even for me (I am only 18kyu). (It was also available in a Japanese language version.) I tried OGO, but it was incredibly slow on my Palm, and not significantly stronger than AIGO. The new handhelds (WindowsMobile/PocketPC, Smartphones, and iPhones) can all run versions of GnuGo which I are much faster and stronger than anything that was available for the Palm platform. If they can't already support the latest version of GnuGo, they will soon enough. I just don't see the Palm platform being able to compete, since it is hardly used anymore. Gnugo for WindowsMobile/PocketPC and Smartphone: http://vieka.com/gnugo/ Gnugo for iPhone: http://www.robota.nl/products/iPhone%20iGo.html I say keep developing for the general CPU and wait for the handheld platforms to catch up to your requirements. Ben. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
