Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
I really don't get this. Applying a patch to a working OS isn't the same as adding oil to a running engine. You probably shouldn't do that either. So what's the big deal with a restart? On my Mac it's probably a good thing, since I haven't restarted in a week or more. Jeff M On Aug 8, 2009, at 3:55 AM, Reid Katan wrote: Quoting t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com: On Aug 6, 2009, at 9:40 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: You can expect it all you want. *All* OSes have patches that need to be applied and hardware should have its firmware at the latest spec at least annually. A properly engineered OS does not need to be restarted when patches are applied. That's not M$. That's not Apple any more either. That's funny. Every time my MacBook updates, it tells me I've got to shut down. No choice in the matter, whether I want to do it now, or wait 'till later. I can't find the Start Button, so it *must* be OSX. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Quoting Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net: On Aug 8, 2009, at 3:55 AM, Reid Katan wrote: That's funny. Every time my MacBook updates, it tells me I've got to shut down. No choice in the matter, whether I want to do it now, I really don't get this. Applying a patch to a working OS isn't the same as adding oil to a running engine. You probably shouldn't do that either. So what's the big deal with a restart? On my Mac it's probably a good thing, since I haven't restarted in a week or more. I don't have any problems with it either. Except when I'd rather be doing something than wait for the thing to go through the motions. Then again, I can always just say no. Tom's the one crowing about Apple's superiority because you don't need to do it. Thusly: Quoting t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com: A properly engineered OS does not need to be restarted when patches are applied. That's not M$. That's not Apple any more either. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
In many situations you have to. When generators need to be up they will even change the oil while it is running. Stewart At 01:40 AM 8/9/2009, you wrote: I really don't get this. Applying a patch to a working OS isn't the same as adding oil to a running engine. You probably shouldn't do that either. So what's the big deal with a restart? On my Mac it's probably a good thing, since I haven't restarted in a week or more. Jeff M Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
On Aug 6, 2009, at 9:40 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: You can expect it all you want. *All* OSes have patches that need to be applied and hardware should have its firmware at the latest spec at least annually. A properly engineered OS does not need to be restarted when patches are applied. That's not M$. That's not Apple any more either. Does a server need to be constantly patched? That is an interesting question. I would say no. Many times patches are for services that I have turned off. Other times patches are to benefit the vendor, not me (viz. Software Advantage). If you start with a well engineered OS I don't think patches are necessary very often. But then, you run patch-a-week Windows. That is different. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Quoting t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com: On Aug 6, 2009, at 9:40 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: You can expect it all you want. *All* OSes have patches that need to be applied and hardware should have its firmware at the latest spec at least annually. A properly engineered OS does not need to be restarted when patches are applied. That's not M$. That's not Apple any more either. That's funny. Every time my MacBook updates, it tells me I've got to shut down. No choice in the matter, whether I want to do it now, or wait 'till later. I can't find the Start Button, so it *must* be OSX. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Except this isn't true. You constantly talk derisively about the people you are supposed to support and save the greater portion on your spleen for those who are best able to do their work with Macs. That is what makes it an issue. I don't think I've ever known anyone with such a strong reality distortion field. You must like the way it makes you feel light on your feet, since it's strength actually warps gravity. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
That's funny. Every time my MacBook updates, it tells me I've got to shut down. No choice in the matter, whether I want to do it now, or wait 'till later. I can't find the Start Button, so it *must* be OSX. Tom also never moves off of v. 1.0 of his applications. Those later versions are just a corporate conspiracy to get him to needlessly spend money and reboot his machines. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Except this isn't true. You constantly talk derisively about the people you are supposed to support and save the greater portion on your spleen for those who are best able to do their work with Macs. That is what makes it an issue. Let's get one thing clear right now. I don't constantly talk derisively about the people I work with. In the decade + I've been on this list, I've mentioned people I work with fewer times as you have fingers on your hands. Even then, it was accurate depiction of the situation, events and personalities of the people involved. OTOH, you spend an inordinate amount of your time and energy here sputtering pejoratives, logical fallacies and projecting your own shortcomings onto anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you. Add to that, you are the ultimate partisan, throwing stink bombs into the crowd as often as you can, just to see how much crap you can stir up. It may make for good E*N*T*E*R*T*A*I*N*M*E*N*T on the list, but it has distinct limits of tolerance. I can take it as well as I give it and I haven't always behaved as well as I should, but act like an arrogant and smug shithead, and that's all you'll get in return, chief. Act like a normal and civil human being and I'll return it in kind. Give it a try, why don't you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Jeff Wright wrote: Except this isn't true. You constantly talk derisively about the people you are supposed to support and save the greater portion on your spleen for those who are best able to do their work with Macs. That is what makes it an issue. I don't think I've ever known anyone with such a strong reality distortion field. You must like the way it makes you feel light on your feet, since it's strength actually warps gravity. Every right winger like yourself has a stronger reality distortion field. Now go back to your worship of Dick and Sara and leave the rational discussion to others. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Every right winger like yourself has a stronger reality distortion field. Now go back to your worship of Dick and Sara and leave the rational discussion to others. You know Jordan, I want to be nice to you, I really do. But then, you shoot your mouth off with such blinding, illiterate and shallow partisanship. Please don't. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
On Aug 8, 2009, at 6:55 AM, Reid Katan wrote: That's funny. Every time my MacBook updates, it tells me I've got to shut down. No choice in the matter, whether I want to do it now, or wait 'till later. I can't find the Start Button, so it *must* be OSX. I suggest moving your lips as you read or maybe reading aloud. I wrote That's not Apple any more either. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Jeff Wright wrote: Every right winger like yourself has a stronger reality distortion field. Now go back to your worship of Dick and Sara and leave the rational discussion to others. You know Jordan, I want to be nice to you, I really do. I an truly blessed! But then, you shoot your mouth off with such blinding, illiterate and shallow partisanship. Please don't. You first. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Quoting TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com: On Aug 8, 2009, at 6:55 AM, Reid Katan wrote: That's funny. Every time my MacBook updates, it tells me I've got to shut down. No choice in the matter, whether I want to do it now, I suggest moving your lips as you read or maybe reading aloud. I wrote That's not Apple any more either. You mean they've changed their ways in the last couple of weeks? Since my last update? I'm looking forward to it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Mark A. Metz mam...@aol.com escribió: Thanks for the link to the article on the DC Bus iPhone app (Cavan any relation?). I use the Fairfax Connector so it doesn't help for me, but I'm sure it is advantageous for some. I used the commuterpages with my WM phone (free), but it doesn't seem to be supported for the iPhone (Yet?). As a scientist and a user of both platforms (I am not an IT person. I'm an untrained geek.), I don't give much credence to anecdotal information. I can usually match anecdote for anecdote with users on either platform. I have a HP Scanjet 8250 (USB) sitting next to my MBP 15 that I can't use while booted in Leopard. I spent considerably more time than half an hour testing HP drivers, bonjour, generic printers, etc. only to discover it wasn't going to work at all. I used to have a lot of trouble scanning with an HP scanner from Windows as well as from a Mac [OS 8/9]. Are HP scanners still as unreliable? If you have a choice, get a better scanner with real drivers. HP has awful drivers. If you can find a generic open source driver that works, use it. The third party commercial drivers cost as much as some scanners. I like Epson, Microtek, Canon, almost anything but HP for scanners, but the HP laser printers are OK, even using CUPS. What kind of data do you require instead of anecdotes? From a testing lab? From Apple, MS or HP? I really don't see that the main issue on the list is Windows PC vs Macs, although it often seems that way, sometimes from those who use one or the other, but not multiple systems. What we all need is the best platform for the work and play that we do. Could be either. Could be neither. It's often both. Cavan has a regular column at Greater Greater Washington. Yes, he's my son. Are you a physicist? Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
If you have a choice, get a better scanner with real drivers. HP has awful drivers. If you can find a generic open source driver that works, use it. That's funny. I heard that same retort almost verbatim from someone before, a Mac person by the way. I'll take the Professional Mode scanner interface from Epson before anything I've seen from HP any day, but the two HP peripherals were hand-me-downs. If I can get them to work, I keep them from the landfill. Besides I've never had any problem with HP peripherals on my Windows machines, and by and large they work on my Macs, too. What kind of data do you require instead of anecdotes? From a testing lab? From Apple, MS or HP? Independent research. Random, representative sample populations. Large numbers of replicates. Clear descriptions of variables being tested and test parameters. Applicable test design with applicable controls. You know, Science. I really don't see that the main issue on the list is Windows PC vs Macs, Perhaps, you're right. It seems more like Apple vs. M$ [sic]. Or recently, Zune vs. iPod. I guess my point is that if the intention of the listserv is to provide computer users a forum for asking questions, like the Computer Guys and Gal show, then novices exposed to heated platform discussions to the point of expletives might not be the best atmosphere. Are you a physicist? No. I am a systematist, entomologist, comparative and eco-morphologist, mathematical modeler, morphometrician, and statistician. It all fits nicely under the umbrella of evolutionary biologist. Thanks again for your input. Mark * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
I agree with you. I have three HP's and two Epsons with scanners on them (All in ones) and I much prefer the output I get from the Epsons than the HP's I scan in a lot of Hymnal pages and the scans from the Epson look so much better. Stewart At 07:23 PM 8/7/2009, you wrote: That's funny. I heard that same retort almost verbatim from someone before, a Mac person by the way. I'll take the Professional Mode scanner interface from Epson before anything I've seen from HP any day, but the two HP peripherals were hand-me-downs. If I can get them to work, I keep them from the landfill. Besides I've never had any problem with HP peripherals on my Windows machines, and by and large they work on my Macs, too. Mark Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
On Aug 6, 2009, at 8:34 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Maybe, just maybe, I respect the idea that you know better about your business needs than I do and don't deign to look down my nose at your choices and question your intelligence. Too bad that courtesy isn't a 2-way street with the Mac zealots. Except this isn't true. You constantly talk derisively about the people you are supposed to support and save the greater portion on your spleen for those who are best able to do their work with Macs. That is what makes it an issue. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
On Aug 7, 2009, at 8:23 PM, Mark A. Metz wrote: I guess my point is that if the intention of the listserv is to provide computer users a forum for asking questions, like the Computer Guys and Gal show, then novices exposed to heated platform discussions to the point of expletives might not be the best atmosphere. This List is not intentionally a public service, although that often is a result. This is entertainment for folks who know a lot about computers. If you remove the entertainment you would likely lose many folks who know a lot about computers. That would reduce the List's ability to provide a useful public service. The faint of heart may prefer to go elsewhere. The original Computer Guys show with Derek McGinty and myself was very argumentative and a lot of fun. M$' declining fortunes have our WFBs particularly riled at the moment and the MFBs are having a jolly good time of it. That discussion is a public service. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
On Aug 7, 2009, at 8:30 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: I have three HP's and two Epsons with scanners on them (All in ones) and I much prefer the output I get from the Epsons than the HP's Epson scanners are probably the best made today. Alas, the market for scanners keeps shrinking. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Pretty good, Jeff. 99.99% uptime means just under an hour of total downtime per year (about 53 minutes). Is that really what you and the DBA are maintaining over three locations? Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- We ARE a small business. We also have the needs of a larger enterprise. And we do it with 2 guys. In 3 locations. Me and a DBA. We run the entire thing on Dell hardware, Windows, Office and MS server products. With 99.99% uptime and near-zero hardware issues. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Pretty good, Jeff. 99.99% uptime means just under an hour of total downtime per year (about 53 minutes). Is that really what you and the DBA are maintaining over three locations? Yep. Only 2 locations have servers. We've had zero network downtime (excepting the 6 year old server our financial system was on--I had been warning my boss for over a year that it needed to be replaced) and the only downtime is for maintenance during off hours. I can schedule patches to be pushed out and systems rebooted in the middle of the night. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Jeff, To believe that the two of you maintain 99.99% uptime in a MS-shop, I must conclude that the computers are doing bare-bones functions. My current project involves a few dozen servers (100K+ users all over the US), mostly windows, and those servers need rebooting or services restarted at least 1-2 per day. Not even close to 99.99, and that is just one of many enterprise projects in the company. In my experience windows scales poorly. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Pretty good, Jeff. 99.99% uptime means just under an hour of total downtime per year (about 53 minutes). Is that really what you and the DBA are maintaining over three locations? Yep. Only 2 locations have servers. We've had zero network downtime (excepting the 6 year old server our financial system was on--I had been warning my boss for over a year that it needed to be replaced) and the only downtime is for maintenance during off hours. I can schedule patches to be pushed out and systems rebooted in the middle of the night. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
On Aug 6, 2009, at 7:35 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: Yep. Only 2 locations have servers. We've had zero network downtime (excepting the 6 year old server our financial system was on--I had been warning my boss for over a year that it needed to be replaced) and the only downtime is for maintenance during off hours. I can schedule patches to be pushed out and systems rebooted in the middle of the night. I see that this is a very different and very limited definition of runs fine than I would use. I expect servers to have zero downtime. That is nothing to crow about. The servers I have here run for years without attention. Same goes for the network. This year we had a router fry and I had to swap in a spare. It will probably be years before that happens again. When I say runs fine I mean that all my royalty (kings, queens, princes, and princesses) are happy and productive. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
It's your job to provide IT/network support. Yeah? So what? Tom's point was that he would have to hire additional staff to handle PCs. Your experience notwithstanding, my experience proves him decidedly wrong. Our businesses involve work other than IT. Your business is IT. Ours isn't. What's your point? If we need a tech support, it significantly cuts into our bottom line, so it's best to have a network and computers that require the least amount support, and the fewest steps to complete tasks. Example: Today we were working with some sound apps that involve changing sound output device from internal to broadcast. On the Mac, I can switch on the fly from one output to another. On the Dell, it requires a reboot with the same device, wasting time and effort. I could list more examples, but the point is that it took about a half an hour to figure out the differences, and reset the Dell [no manual provided, had to search and download drivers from mfg.]. End result is the device is permanently attached to a Mac. We don't 'schlep' to a Mac 'genius'. We rarely need the tech support in the first place, and a simple phone call, email, SMS, IM almost always get the answer quickly. We go to the Apple store to play with new toys, borrow their WiFi, buy new toys. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Jeff, To believe that the two of you maintain 99.99% uptime in a MS-shop, I must conclude that the computers are doing bare-bones functions. My current project involves a few dozen servers (100K+ users all over the US), mostly windows, and those servers need rebooting or services restarted at least 1-2 per day. Not even close to 99.99, and that is just one of many enterprise projects in the company. In my experience windows scales poorly. Compared to you, yes, our operation is bare-bones. Not for us it isn't. Perhaps Windows doesn't scale well, at least in your situation it doesn't, but I never made any such claim. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
Our businesses involve work other than IT. Your business is IT. Ours isn't. What's your point? My company is not in the business of IT either. It uses technology to accomplish its goals, which I support. What's your point? If we need a tech support, it significantly cuts into our bottom line, so it's best to have a network and computers that require the least amount support, and the fewest steps to complete tasks. Been over this a few dozen times now over the last couple years: use the best tool for your job. If that's a Mac, fine by me. Do you see me giving you endless shit for that decision? Maybe, just maybe, I respect the idea that you know better about your business needs than I do and don't deign to look down my nose at your choices and question your intelligence. Too bad that courtesy isn't a 2-way street with the Mac zealots. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
As a scientist and a user of both platforms (I am not an IT person. I'm an untrained geek.), I don't give much credence to anecdotal information. I can usually match anecdote for anecdote with users on either platform. You sound far too reasonable and rational, Mark. You won't last long here. Just the same, welcome aboard! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
I expect servers to have zero downtime. That is nothing to crow about. You can expect it all you want. *All* OSes have patches that need to be applied and hardware should have its firmware at the latest spec at least annually. What you expect is kinda irrelevant. The servers I have here run for years without attention. Same goes for the network. This year we had a router fry and I had to swap in a spare. It will probably be years before that happens again. So, you don't perform basic maintenance. I see you've bought the Fingers Toes Crossed(tm) plan. Good luck with that. When I say runs fine I mean that all my royalty (kings, queens, princes, and princesses) are happy and productive. Mine are too. My king praised me greatly this afternoon. I'm thinking knighthood. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Ford! Chevy! Lather, rinse, repeat [Finally an FCC that earns its keep]
It's your job to provide IT/network support. Yeah? So what? Tom's point was that he would have to hire additional staff to handle PCs. Your experience notwithstanding, my experience proves him decidedly wrong. It's your job to provide IT/network support. Those of us with small businesses can't afford IT staff or outside services. The computers are tools that we use in our businesses and must work seamlessly with as little tech support as possible. That's why we use Macs, even when we're forced to use Windows. That's the REAL world of small business. We ARE a small business. We also have the needs of a larger enterprise. And we do it with 2 guys. In 3 locations. Me and a DBA. We run the entire thing on Dell hardware, Windows, Office and MS server products. With 99.99% uptime and near-zero hardware issues. Dell hardware, which will run practically forever, costs me a fraction of what comparable Apple hardware would cost us, with a warranty that gets me a tech with a part on-site for any rare hardware problem, not a schlep to the genius at the mall (in Delaware, right?). We get charity pricing from MS, which costs us about 10% of retail, often less. Is that REAL enough for you? Even when I worked for a Swiss multinational corporation, many of their European employees, scientists and managers brought their own Macs to the US, while the locals were stuck with Windows by an IT department full of MS engineers. I would bet that if you gave 10 people the exact same recipe for a cake, you would 10 different cakes of varying taste, texture and appearance. Some would likely be inedible. Not everyone is cut out to be a baker or a pastry chef. The same goes for IT. GIGO rules. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
