Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
This is wrong. Competition only needs a winner and looser at the end of the game. However during it both sides should stay competitive. And yes, I'll worry, along with you, when the game is over. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:44 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: No one could compete with Freddy and Fanny because they had the implied (turns out real) backing of the US Treasury and they could borrow at rates lower than other financial institutions. That's how they made those gobs of money (before the fun ran out). And Franklin Raines made his 90 mil during the same years that Fanny Mae couldn't produce a yearly financial report. In order to say you have a competition, then you have to have winners and losers. Do you really think that if a public option were set up to compete, that it would have a chance in hell of losing. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: You can't compete with the govt. Choice with the state is a bug, not a feature. This has no basis in fact. You just keep chanting that wingnut mantra. Keep your eyes shut real tight while you do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
I don't question who did it. While I sound like a liberal most of the time, I blame the democrats as much as the conservatives most of the time. Stupid ideas see no political bias. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress. See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as affordable as it is today. Very true,except that today we have more information about fares. You only get less for your $ today. Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave you sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and laugh about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY office of the CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I still smile as I recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn accents giving me tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was magical. When I would get to the airline counter and they would try to screw me once again I would mutter a few rule numbers and screw you became yes sir, we can book you with another airline and we'll pay the difference. Those were the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the government and now tell us how ineffective it is. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy beyond its means. Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif The chart shows that the national Debt was MUCH higher in the 40s and 50s. You should also note that the USA survived the 40s and 50s just fine. This chart also shows that the run up in the National Debt was inherited by the current administration and that they have increased it by just a tiny amount. When you consider what a mess they are up against that increase is perfectly reasonable. The alternative would be far worse. The best way to pay down the debt is to get the economy going again. Note that Clinton did precisely that. You just do not have your facts straight and your analysis is piss poor. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit
That was kind of my point. Not really happy about the thought of paying for a house that burned to the ground 5 years earlier. But the option of not buying insurance should be there. That's tort reform for you. Hard to sue an insurance company if you never paid for it in the first place. This of course assumes your insurance company is refusing to pay your claim. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 10:09 PM, t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 8, 2009, at 6:23 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: As for letting the free market work for insurance companies, I'm all for that. Let's stop requiring insurance for damn near everything. Let's make it an option. Do you want to buy a house? You don't have to buy fire insurance. You want to drive a car? You don't have to have whatever insurance. You want to live a few years more? You don't have to buy health insurance. But the option could be there if you do. Fine, but if you do opt out of medical insurance and you don't have proof of cash up front and you do have an accident the ambulance will refuse to transport you. We just let you bleed to death on the side of the road. You fine with that? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:59 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: This is wrong. Competition only needs a winner and looser at the end of the game. However during it both sides should stay competitive. And yes, I'll worry, along with you, when the game is over. Eventually the Sun will go super nova and the game will be over. At that point we won't care, but that is sufficiently far into the future that the end of the game is not something that is worth thinking about. In real life there is no need for the concept of winners and losers. That assumes a zero sum game. That happens in sports, but is not a useful concept for real life. Real life is best approached as a positive sum game. All players are made better off by playing it. Approaching life as a zero sum game is usually immoral. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
And people are just figuring this out. You'd figure not being able to make a house payment on a house they couldn't afford in the first place would have been a big clue. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:56 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: Profit, no, but break even has a certain appeal. An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy beyond its means. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: How about if they break even? That would be a hoot. What does that mean? You could try to make sense from time to time. That would really be a hoot. Profit and break even are not useful concepts for thinking about how governments work. Any discussion built around those concepts will be illogical. you wast our time. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Socialism is a word like any other, a construct of humans and governments. Neither good nor bad, Tom is being mighty ignorant here since both the nazi and soviets called themselves and acted in great part in a socialistic way. Then of course you can discuss the merits of the pseudo socialism of the UK or canada etc. Historically the United States however has been opposed to this kind of central governmental control even though for the last hundred years we've been lurching towards it. The problem comes in that the reality of socialism more often then not takes a negative form. I know lefties like Tom won't understand, but those who do not support socialism, do not because personal freedom is more important then collective bondage. *. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance Winston Churchill * On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:03 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too. Socialism is simply opposition to the untrammeled workings of the economic market. Most of the world embraces socialism. Socialism is a good and virtuous thing. Anyone who does not support socialism is either evil or a nut job. Which one are you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
*. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance Winston Churchill * Oh, dear. I'm afraid you've just stepped in it, Mike. That's a postwar campaign quote, a broadside from Churchill's 15-inch oratorical guns, aimed squarely at Clement Attlee. It was hyperbole, and it cost him dearly. Attlee responded by thanking Churchill for providing a clear demonstration of the difference between a great wartime leader and a typical peacetime politician. In fact, the British National Health Service originated from a report commissioned by the WW2 Churchill government--a report that Churchill endorsed and would have implemented had he not been voted out of office in 1945. Instead, Attlee's government implemented it in 1948. When Churchill returned to power in 1951, he could easily have scrapped it, and many in the Conservative Party wanted him to do just that. He did not; on the contrary, he increased its funding. (As did Margaret Thatcher, by the way, the very Toriest of modern Tories.) Here's a pre-campaign Churchill quote that shows his position far more accurately, from 1944. Note clearly the final sentence. In the future you will want to avoid citing Churchill on this. He understood the difference between a Marxist regime and the provision of critical social programs by a democratic government--a distinction that seems to escape so many American conservatives. The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is clear. Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the richest man or woman simply on the ground that it is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the same way as the fire brigade will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as to the most important mansion. Our policy is to create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the country, irrespective of means, age, sex, or occupation, shall have equal opportunities to benefit from the best and most up-to-date medical and allied services available. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Then the socialists should pick a better word. I'm speaking in broader terms keeping in mind the people the big O has surrounded himself with over his lifetime. I'm also talking about keeping the federal government from gaining even more control, keep these things within the states where it belongs. On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com wrote: *. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance Winston Churchill * Oh, dear. I'm afraid you've just stepped in it, Mike. That's a postwar campaign quote, a broadside from Churchill's 15-inch oratorical guns, aimed squarely at Clement Attlee. It was hyperbole, and it cost him dearly. Attlee responded by thanking Churchill for providing a clear demonstration of the difference between a great wartime leader and a typical peacetime politician. In fact, the British National Health Service originated from a report commissioned by the WW2 Churchill government--a report that Churchill endorsed and would have implemented had he not been voted out of office in 1945. Instead, Attlee's government implemented it in 1948. When Churchill returned to power in 1951, he could easily have scrapped it, and many in the Conservative Party wanted him to do just that. He did not; on the contrary, he increased its funding. (As did Margaret Thatcher, by the way, the very Toriest of modern Tories.) Here's a pre-campaign Churchill quote that shows his position far more accurately, from 1944. Note clearly the final sentence. In the future you will want to avoid citing Churchill on this. He understood the difference between a Marxist regime and the provision of critical social programs by a democratic government--a distinction that seems to escape so many American conservatives. The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is clear. Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the richest man or woman simply on the ground that it is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the same way as the fire brigade will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as to the most important mansion. Our policy is to create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the country, irrespective of means, age, sex, or occupation, shall have equal opportunities to benefit from the best and most up-to-date medical and allied services available. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
I was replying to the complaints about how horrible flying was today and how much better it was when it used to be federally regulated. I was just pointing out who did the deregulation. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress. See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act. Are we talking policy or are you starting a Jimmy Carter fan club here? It is impossible to keep you on topic and making a logical progression from one fact to the next. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy beyond its means. Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif This was the Bush party line when he grew the National Debt. The chart shows that the national Debt was MUCH higher in the 40s and 50s. You should also note that the USA survived the 40s and 50s just fine. The problem with the huge national debt is that it will soon become the largest item in the federal budget. That was not the case back in the 40s and 50s. http://www.federalbudget.com/ I agree with you that the previous administration ( which included 2 years of a Democratic Congress) was fiscally irresponsible and ran up the National Debt. I condemn that profligate spending. But the party fully in charge now has quadrupled the budget deficits which will drive up the National Debt unless they enact massive tax increases. This chart also shows that the run up in the National Debt was inherited by the current administration and that they have increased it by just a tiny amount. When you consider what a mess they are up against that increase is perfectly reasonable. The alternative would be far worse. The best way to pay down the debt is to get the economy going again. Again, the was the Bush mantra for his excessive spending. Note that Clinton did precisely that. Don't forget that Clinton had a Republican Congress to somewhat restrain growth in spending (before they went hogwild with Bush). And most of the gusher of revenue during the short surplus period was due to capital gains from the skyrocketing stock market whose underlying values were phony. Remember the tech bubble and Enron? You just do not have your facts straight and your analysis is piss poor. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Actually, I am a liberal concerning airline deregulation. It opened inexpensive air travel to the masses. Competition brought us Peoples Express (remember them?) and then SW and Jet Blue. Granted, flying in coach today is much like taking the bus as far as amenities. I remember flying before 1978. A round trip to the coast was over $1000, and that was in 1970s dollars. And it was for the elite and businessmen primarily. Today you can go to the coast with Jet Blue for $500. I will grant you that some regulations may be needed to solve the horrors of 8 hour waits on the runway. Jeff Miles wrote: I don't question who did it. While I sound like a liberal most of the time, I blame the democrats as much as the conservatives most of the time. Stupid ideas see no political bias. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress. See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as affordable as it is today. Very true,except that today we have more information about fares. You only get less for your $ today. Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave you sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and laugh about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY office of the CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I still smile as I recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn accents giving me tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was magical. When I would get to the airline counter and they would try to screw me once again I would mutter a few rule numbers and screw you became yes sir, we can book you with another airline and we'll pay the difference. Those were the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the government and now tell us how ineffective it is. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
It's all ok, Geithner and O are asking congress to raise the debt ceiling to 12t. On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Steve at Verizon stevet...@verizon.netwrote: t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy beyond its means. Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif This was the Bush party line when he grew the National Debt. The chart shows that the national Debt was MUCH higher in the 40s and 50s. You should also note that the USA survived the 40s and 50s just fine. The problem with the huge national debt is that it will soon become the largest item in the federal budget. That was not the case back in the 40s and 50s. http://www.federalbudget.com/ I agree with you that the previous administration ( which included 2 years of a Democratic Congress) was fiscally irresponsible and ran up the National Debt. I condemn that profligate spending. But the party fully in charge now has quadrupled the budget deficits which will drive up the National Debt unless they enact massive tax increases. This chart also shows that the run up in the National Debt was inherited by the current administration and that they have increased it by just a tiny amount. When you consider what a mess they are up against that increase is perfectly reasonable. The alternative would be far worse. The best way to pay down the debt is to get the economy going again. Again, the was the Bush mantra for his excessive spending. Note that Clinton did precisely that. Don't forget that Clinton had a Republican Congress to somewhat restrain growth in spending (before they went hogwild with Bush). And most of the gusher of revenue during the short surplus period was due to capital gains from the skyrocketing stock market whose underlying values were phony. Remember the tech bubble and Enron? You just do not have your facts straight and your analysis is piss poor. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy beyond its means. Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif The chart shows that the national Debt was MUCH higher in the 40s and 50s. You should also note that the USA survived the 40s and 50s just fine. This chart also shows that the run up in the National Debt was inherited by the current administration and that they have increased it by just a tiny amount. When you consider what a mess they are up against that increase is perfectly reasonable. The alternative would be far worse. The best way to pay down the debt is to get the economy going again. Note that Clinton did precisely that. You just do not have your facts straight and your analysis is piss poor. The two main reasons that the national debt is up this year, aside from the financial incompetence and theft of the previous administration, are that all the costs of two wars [including war profiteers] and GWOT are now listed in the budget. Those items--well over $1 trillion--along with the deliberate run-up of debt to bankrupt the US Treasury by Reagan-Bush-Bush policies represent almost all of the national debt. The remaining amounts are the funds being used to repair the financial damage, and to provide programs for people, rather than corporations, for a change. The lowest point in the debt graph was Carter's last budget that ran into the first year of Reagan's administration. After that first year, the debt lurched upward, in a planned policy to bankrupt the middle class as well as the US government [see David Stockman's book, The Triumph of Politics: Why the Reagan Revolution Failed, and Grover Norquist's goal to drown the federal government, i.e. Starve the Beast]. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
This makes no sense to me. Control is control, regardless of who's doing it. So it's ok for your neighbor to tell you what you can or can't do, but not for that sap from Maine directing what you can or can't do? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 11, 2009, at 7:37 AM, mike wrote: Then the socialists should pick a better word. I'm speaking in broader terms keeping in mind the people the big O has surrounded himself with over his lifetime. I'm also talking about keeping the federal government from gaining even more control, keep these things within the states where it belongs. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
I used to fly mostly out of Seattle and mainly to places on the west coast. However, I have been to Florida and Hawaii quite a few times over the past 20 or so years. I haven't noticed prices changing that drastically. With the exception of flying first class to Hawaii this last time. No 6 hours on the plane sitting on a stool for me. Exaggeration, but close enough. I'm also an airline flight prices junkie. I hit cheaptickets.com daily. And prices can be deceptive nowadays. Horizon air (owned by Alaska air) now charges at check in for even the first bag checked. Kind of irritating if you didn't show up prepared to pay it. Which I noticed this last trip to San Diego that several kids had. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 11, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: Actually, I am a liberal concerning airline deregulation. It opened inexpensive air travel to the masses. Competition brought us Peoples Express (remember them?) and then SW and Jet Blue. Granted, flying in coach today is much like taking the bus as far as amenities. I remember flying before 1978. A round trip to the coast was over $1000, and that was in 1970s dollars. And it was for the elite and businessmen primarily. Today you can go to the coast with Jet Blue for $500. I will grant you that some regulations may be needed to solve the horrors of 8 hour waits on the runway. Jeff Miles wrote: I don't question who did it. While I sound like a liberal most of the time, I blame the democrats as much as the conservatives most of the time. Stupid ideas see no political bias. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress. See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as affordable as it is today. Very true,except that today we have more information about fares. You only get less for your $ today. Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave you sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and laugh about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY office of the CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I still smile as I recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn accents giving me tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was magical. When I would get to the airline counter and they would try to screw me once again I would mutter a few rule numbers and screw you became yes sir, we can book you with another airline and we'll pay the difference. Those were the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the government and now tell us how ineffective it is. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:15 AM Sep 11, mike wrote: Socialism is a word like any other, a construct of humans and governments. Neither good nor bad, Tom is being mighty ignorant here since both the nazi and soviets called themselves and acted in great part in a socialistic way. Another demonstration of piss poor logic. These evil doers did a lot of things, as did Reagan and Bush. Their hearts beat. Blood flowed through their veins. They breathed in air. By your logic all these activities should be condemned by virtue of guilt by association. If you truly believe what you wrote you need to promptly stop all of the above. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:44 AM Sep 11, Steve at Verizon wrote: t.piwowar wrote: Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif This was the Bush party line when he grew the National Debt. Should we stop doing the math properly just because Bush did it properly too? Your logic continues to be cracked. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: The only thing I'm not seeing here is a point. Precisely the point. You don't see much through your ideological haze and trying to provoke thought is quite impossible. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: You can't compete with the govt. Choice with the state is a bug, not a feature. This has no basis in fact. You just keep chanting that wingnut mantra. Keep your eyes shut real tight while you do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too. Socialism is simply opposition to the untrammeled workings of the economic market. Most of the world embraces socialism. Socialism is a good and virtuous thing. Anyone who does not support socialism is either evil or a nut job. Which one are you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:19 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: What the hell came of creating the database/intranet of health care? Who was against it? What happened to the waste cutting? Where did it go? The company still exists, so.? People were rightly nervous over such an operation being run by M$. Same thing happened when M$ tried to muscle into the financial services business. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 6, 2009, at 2:04 PM, mike wrote: Brilliant! Socialism is great till you run out of everyone elses money. But one doesn't. That is just a bogeyman invented by wing nuts who are bad at math. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as affordable as it is today. Very true,except that today we have more information about fares. You only get less for your $ today. Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave you sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and laugh about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY office of the CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I still smile as I recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn accents giving me tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was magical. When I would get to the airline counter and they would try to screw me once again I would mutter a few rule numbers and screw you became yes sir, we can book you with another airline and we'll pay the difference. Those were the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the government and now tell us how ineffective it is. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
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On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Jordan wrote: _Oh, and by the way, these wingers who are against government involvement in health care because it's not in the constitution? I guess they are against Medicare too. Good luck with that. I recall Trent Lott lecturing us while people were dying from tainted beef. His anti-regulation, free-market notion seemed to require that each of us acquire a food testing lab and take it to the grocery store every time we shopped. Such jaw-dropping stupidity. As Barney Frank asks What planet do you live on? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: How about if they break even? That would be a hoot. What does that mean? You could try to make sense from time to time. That would really be a hoot. Profit and break even are not useful concepts for thinking about how governments work. Any discussion built around those concepts will be illogical. you wast our time. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
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On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:33 PM, b_s-wilk wrote: By expanding Medicare and returning to private nonprofits instead of taking customers' premiums for shareholders, the costs of both Medicare and private health care will go down, as it has in many other countries with similar plans. Medicare costs and premiums will go down--lurching downward--when the pool is increased to include younger healthier people instead of only people over the age of 65. Amen. There are so many good examples to emulate. They all have much lower costs and offer much better outcomes. Those people love their health plans. But the wingnuts comb through the millions of people served by those health systems to find the 1 in a 100 examples where something went wrong and then try to convince us that this is how those systems work all the time. And when that fails they just out and out lie to us. Don't forget Stephen Hawking likes his Death Panel Health Care just fine ... http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/erica/2009/08/stephen-hawking-likes-his-deat.php * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress. See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as affordable as it is today. Very true,except that today we have more information about fares. You only get less for your $ today. Today they can abuse their customers with impunity. They can leave you sitting in a plane with overflowing toilets for 12 hours and laugh about it. Back when I was a kid I recall calling the NY office of the CAB several times about abusive airline practices. I still smile as I recall they guys there with their thick Brooklyn accents giving me tactical advice and regulations to cite. It was magical. When I would get to the airline counter and they would try to screw me once again I would mutter a few rule numbers and screw you became yes sir, we can book you with another airline and we'll pay the difference. Those were the days. Then the wingnuts wrecked the government and now tell us how ineffective it is. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
No one could compete with Freddy and Fanny because they had the implied (turns out real) backing of the US Treasury and they could borrow at rates lower than other financial institutions. That's how they made those gobs of money (before the fun ran out). And Franklin Raines made his 90 mil during the same years that Fanny Mae couldn't produce a yearly financial report. In order to say you have a competition, then you have to have winners and losers. Do you really think that if a public option were set up to compete, that it would have a chance in hell of losing. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: You can't compete with the govt. Choice with the state is a bug, not a feature. This has no basis in fact. You just keep chanting that wingnut mantra. Keep your eyes shut real tight while you do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Profit, no, but break even has a certain appeal. An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy beyond its means. t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: How about if they break even? That would be a hoot. What does that mean? You could try to make sense from time to time. That would really be a hoot. Profit and break even are not useful concepts for thinking about how governments work. Any discussion built around those concepts will be illogical. you wast our time. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 9, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Jeff Miles wrote: I'm an ignorant ass because I don't agree with you and don't see why you keep refusing to understand the word option? Same thing happens with these folks when the topic is computers. They simply refuse to acknowledge key facts and will argue round and round the facts then try to change the subject. A dearth or logic and an abundance of debating tactics. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
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On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: Every year we work longer and longer to pay the guvmint our tax burden and every year we become less free as more laws are passed that restrict our freedom just a little bit more than last year. False. What planet do you live on? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
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On Sep 9, 2009, at 5:59 PM, mike wrote: I heard someone saying on the radio or television, I don't recall where, that we should require when any new law goes on the books they should have to remove one also. Probably Fox. Most of the utterly stupid commentary comes from there. Only an idiot would think this way. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit
On Sep 8, 2009, at 6:23 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: As for letting the free market work for insurance companies, I'm all for that. Let's stop requiring insurance for damn near everything. Let's make it an option. Do you want to buy a house? You don't have to buy fire insurance. You want to drive a car? You don't have to have whatever insurance. You want to live a few years more? You don't have to buy health insurance. But the option could be there if you do. Fine, but if you do opt out of medical insurance and you don't have proof of cash up front and you do have an accident the ambulance will refuse to transport you. We just let you bleed to death on the side of the road. You fine with that? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
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On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: It is called universal or one payer healthcare. Nothing socialistic about it. Nope. It is socialism through and through. It is the right thing to do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit
On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote: For you to say that the health care in Cuba is better than the United States may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Given the choice...you mean to tell me that you would fly to Cuba to have open heart surgery instead of having it done by a specialist here? You answered no...I'm certain...which means then, that health care is NOT better in Cuba. Inability to think straight seems to be a recurring theme here. Open heart surgery is a specific procedure and is in no way indicative of quality of health care. On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote: Socializing our health care system will not only hurt our economy...but it will ruin medicine in the United States. How do you get to such a sweeping and bizarre conclusion? There is no logical way to get to such a conclusion from the data. If you build your case on the foundation of such nonsense you have no case. On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote: 85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health care Not true. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007 www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml That would mean that only 82% have health insurance, so how can it be that 85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health care? Is Hamid Karzai your pollster? And on an on. You are just spouting nonsense. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
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On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:44 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: No one could compete with Freddy and Fanny because they had the implied (turns out real) backing of the US Treasury and they could borrow at rates lower than other financial institutions. That's how they made those gobs of money (before the fun ran out). And Franklin Raines made his 90 mil during the same years that Fanny Mae couldn't produce a yearly financial report. Well here you go changing the subject again in the hope that you can maybe prevail in another arena. Clearly you do not know that Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac do. They are clearing houses or facilitators that work with *privately-held* banks and other *private* financial firms to securitize mortgages. Between the two of them they handle only about half of this kind of business so there is plenty of competition. The reason there are two of them is to further enhance competition. If you want to call them socialist than by the same logic the New York Stock Exchange is socialist. You gat an F on the facts and an F on your logic. You make no sense at all. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit
Hello kettle? I love that line! g cb _ On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote: For you to say that the health care in Cuba is better than the United States may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Given the choice...you mean to tell me that you would fly to Cuba to have open heart surgery instead of having it done by a specialist here? You answered no...I'm certain...which means then, that health care is NOT better in Cuba. Inability to think straight seems to be a recurring theme here. Open heart surgery is a specific procedure and is in no way indicative of quality of health care. On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote: Socializing our health care system will not only hurt our economy...but it will ruin medicine in the United States. How do you get to such a sweeping and bizarre conclusion? There is no logical way to get to such a conclusion from the data. If you build your case on the foundation of such nonsense you have no case. On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote: 85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health care Not true. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007 www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml That would mean that only 82% have health insurance, so how can it be that 85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health care? Is Hamid Karzai your pollster? And on an on. You are just spouting nonsense. *** ** ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** *** ** * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress. See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act. Are we talking policy or are you starting a Jimmy Carter fan club here? It is impossible to keep you on topic and making a logical progression from one fact to the next. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
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We ain't govmuent then whats be we? I don't work in a labor camp. I'm not forced into an army. Hell I'm not even made to feed the chickens. Damn, how did this govment I'm not a part of get so out of control? By the way, next time you feel we aren't all the government, lets see what happens when no one votes. Then we're talking revolution. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: She said we, she didn't say you. We aren't including you. So don't bother voting next election. It won't be counted. You're not included. Oh, we'll still be taking SS out of your paycheck. Probably LI as well, but you aren't part of our government. Wow, how freeing that must feel. A man of the world. Oh! To the heart! You big meanie. Yes, it was a very nice DNC talking points post. Filled with null data and misty eyed nostalgic naiveté. We ain't been the guvmint for some time now, but please, don't let me interrupt the fantasy that any of us still have a role to play other than thrall. I knew I should have just started punching myself in the head, rather than let myself get dragged into one of these pointless health care arguments. It always degrades into partisan idiocy. Life's too short... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
And that's why you're against health care reform and/or the public option, you have the blinders on? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:41 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: If you encounter someone who is hungry and you don't feed them you are not being nice. If you encounter someone who is homeless and you don't shelter them you are not being nice. If you encounter someone who is bleeding to death and you don't help them you are a criminal. Tell us again that you don't see the difference. The only thing I'm not seeing here is a point. D-. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Yes and no. Why are the both on the stock exchange as two separate entities? But that's not what I really asked. What the hell came of creating the database/intranet of health care? Who was against it? What happened to the waste cutting? Where did it go? The company still exists, so.? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:50 PM, t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste. Whatever happened with that? Healtheon merged with WebMD in 1999. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as affordable as it is today. You only get less for your $ today. I search flight prices on a weekly, if not daily schedule. Prices go up and down depending on when you search. But they haven't changed much in the last 20 years over all. Only the service has. I've started to wonder when they're going to start packing us in popcorn crates. Actually those would probably be to big. Get rid of the crates and popcorn. Let's just glue them all together and shove them inside. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: This is a terrible comparison. But if you must, the airline travel industry has also gone to hell. I don't know how much you fly, but it's miserable today as compared to 20 years ago I fly a couple of times a year. It's OK. What I do know is that it's no longer only a tool for the businessman or the wealthy as it was pre-deregulation. Everyone can afford to fly now, which in my book, is a great thing. It's not the state-protected status quo, which again, that's a good thing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Where are you getting this nonsense? What part of option won't flow through your head? I'd recommend using a hammer, but then you'd have to use your insurance. That is if you have insurance. Option means optional. Wham, wham, wham. Bang your head against the wall a few more times and it might sink in. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Whjy are you afraid of a choice between the private insurers and a government program? I said: choice. Private insurers can't print money or tax their customers when times get tight. You can't compete with the govt. Choice with the state is a bug, not a feature. If the issue are persons without insurance, then why are we talking about making a program for everyone else too? As I said, it's a stalking horse for single-payer. If it were only to cover the uninsured, then expanding Medicare coverage would be the expedient and practical solution. It's not even on the table. For a president who said that he didn't want any part in running an auto company, he sure seems all fired up to run an insurance company. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Ok, how about socialized health care if we call it the Republican Healthcare Initiative? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 10:15 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: I find it funny that when liberals want change its called socialism or pandering to people with hands out. While when neocons call for change it's fanatical renegade John Wynism (I just made that up). Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too. I don't think either are to far apart on what we all want, but we're to damn stubborn to say, hey, I agree with that. Reinforcing the idea that there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the 2 parties. If either party had any ideas worth agreeing with, I'd be all over it. Still waiting for that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Once again I have to point out government programs aren't created and meant to make a profit. Ya think? How about if they break even? That would be a hoot. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Where are you getting this nonsense? What part of option won't flow through your head? I'd recommend using a hammer, but then you'd have to use your insurance. That is if you have insurance. Option means optional. Wham, wham, wham. Bang your head against the wall a few more times and it might sink in. Yep. Should have started punching myself in the head. The end result is the same. Go be an ignorant ass on someone else's time. Buh-bye. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 6, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: That food, which uses a mixed but largely free market system, is so cheap and plentiful that even the poor can easily afford it, is lost on the socialized medicine proponents. Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? This is another issue that Americans will have to face up to. Corporate farmers are polluting our world and serving up food from diseased animals. Our food is so strongly laced with antibiotics that they are breeding new strains of drug-resistant diseases. The corporate farmers are slowly killing us. Have a nice day! There is also strong evidence that eating more than a little animal protein isn't healthy anyway, even if it wasn't laced with antibiotics and hormones. Read _The China Study._ But the corporate farmers are also polluting the land with chemical fertilizers and our bodies with GM and chemical laced vegetables. _ _Oh, and by the way, these wingers who are against government involvement in health care because it's not in the constitution? I guess they are against Medicare too. Good luck with that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
One side of it is that Doctors did not need to purchase it and did not. Professionals are notorious (I mean Doctors etc.) in keeping up with the latest technology. With all the doctors I get to see with my wife We have only seen one clinic (Othopods) who used tablets and kept all their records on computers. He was able to call up the record, even an MRI on tablet and then send it to a viewer and show us the MRI. This is out of 10 doctors 1 did it this way. Not good stats. Stewart At 11:14 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote: Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste. Whatever happened with that? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
IT IS NEITHER! It is called universal or one payer healthcare. Nothing socialistic about it. Stewart At 01:42 AM 9/9/2009, you wrote: Ok, how about socialized health care if we call it the Republican Healthcare Initiative? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 10:15 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: I find it funny that when liberals want change its called socialism or pandering to people with hands out. While when neocons call for change it's fanatical renegade John Wynism (I just made that up). Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too. I don't think either are to far apart on what we all want, but we're to damn stubborn to say, hey, I agree with that. Reinforcing the idea that there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the 2 parties. If either party had any ideas worth agreeing with, I'd be all over it. Still waiting for that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
IT IS NEITHER! It is called universal or one payer healthcare. Nothing socialistic about it. Then that word does not mean what you think it means. I'm out of this discussion at this point. It has devolved into the usual partisan nonsense. If leftists have any sense, they'll read and soak in the Paglia piece. I'm not holding breath. She's probably being purged from the community as we speak for her disloyalty and temerity. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
As one with family from Cuba and some friends remaining, I can assure you that Jeff W. has no idea about Cuba, considering his comments. It's their health care insurance system and outcomes that are better than ours, not the high tech gadgets and expensive doctors. The Cuban government, thanks to US intervention and unnecessary embargos, is oppressive, and the people are suffering from that. Government oppression has not affected the affordability and quality of outcomes in Cuba, which are more favorable than in the US, with insurance and care universally available, unlike here. I was wondering when you would get around to apologizing for tyrants. The Cuban govt is oppressive because it chooses to be and can be. The embargo is stupid and should have been lifted long ago, but many, many other countries have managed to oppress their people without any US embargo. I thought of you and your talking points post when I read Camille Paglia's latest column. Oh, please, not Camille Paglia! She's a walking oxymoron--a hostile misogynist feminist flamethrower. Is she stupid enough to think that town hall disruptions and teabaggers weren't Astroturf corporate shills and misinformed puppets? I doubt it. Does she really believe that Democrats as a whole are wealthy zombies? Get real. It's an umbrella coalition with diverse factions. A flame-thrower for over 30 years, Paglia doesn't like to be confused with the facts when her reality distortions get her more money and recognition. Seems to be the kind of liberal that David Horowitz and Linda Chavez were before they found out they could make more money pretending to be conservative. Your mistake is twofold. First you are equating the Cuban government with its generous social system. It's encouraging that an oppressive government takes care of its citizens as well as it can afford, unless, of course, you directly oppose the government and are thrown in jail. The Cuban government is oppressive because some leaders are paranoid and power-hungry. The paranoia is understandable considering the more severe oppression of US-backed Fulgencio Batista, who was given $1 million each day by the Mafia, to allow them to rape the country in the aftermath of the coups that overthrew popularly elected presidents, as the US did in Nicaragua, Panama, Iran, Australia, Mexico, and other countries. The main difference is that the proximity of Cuba made both sides even more paranoid than other countries that suffered from US manipulation. The widespread mis-/disinformation that's readily believed by too many Americans is a failure of our education system, dumbed down by Bush-era changes in NCLB, emphasizing multiple-guess tests instead of teaching and encouraging children to be able to discern fact from fiction, in printed media, and especially on the Internet. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Actually, you will find the banks that survived were the ones who were more diversified in their holdings. The one that went tits up were the old investment houses that only recently started banking businesses. And why does the federal government have Medicaid administered by the states? You might find the answer above. And why is Medicare an actuarial mess and lurching towards insolvency? I think you'll find your answer somewhere around reality. You have the corporate talking points well-memorized. Medicare has an overhead of 2-4%. For-profit companies have overhead of 15-30% or more with the top crooks being paid huge salaries/bonuses with the money made from not paying their customers' claims. It isn't difficult to adjust the basis for Medicare to extend its longevity, although it isn't lurching towards insolvency, except that Bush used the Medicare funds to pay for his wars instead of saving it for health care costs. That theft of Medicare funds to pay for war--off budget--is another act that has led to exploding debt that the current administration has to deal with. By expanding Medicare and returning to private nonprofits instead of taking customers' premiums for shareholders, the costs of both Medicare and private health care will go down, as it has in many other countries with similar plans. Medicare costs and premiums will go down--lurching downward--when the pool is increased to include younger healthier people instead of only people over the age of 65. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:33 PM, b_s-wilkb1sun...@yahoo.es wrote: You have the corporate talking points well-memorized. Medicare has an overhead of 2-4%. For-profit companies have overhead of 15-30% or more with the top crooks being paid huge salaries/bonuses with the money made from not paying their customers' claims. It isn't difficult to adjust the basis for Medicare to extend its longevity, although it isn't lurching towards insolvency, except that Bush used the Medicare funds to pay for his wars instead of saving it for health care costs. That theft of Medicare funds to pay for war--off budget--is another act that has led to exploding debt that the current administration has to deal with. By expanding Medicare and returning to private nonprofits instead of taking customers' premiums for shareholders, the costs of both Medicare and private health care will go down, as it has in many other countries with similar plans. Medicare costs and premiums will go down--lurching downward--when the pool is increased to include younger healthier people instead of only people over the age of 65. If you continue to provide information that makes too much sense you are going to further confuse those who have already been confused by too much misinformation. They may then be in need of psychological help that is probably not covered by their insurance plan. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
One side of it is that Doctors did not need to purchase it and did not. Professionals are notorious (I mean Doctors etc.) in keeping up with the latest technology. With all the doctors I get to see with my wife We have only seen one clinic (Othopods) who used tablets and kept all their records on computers. He was able to call up the record, even an MRI on tablet and then send it to a viewer and show us the MRI. This is out of 10 doctors 1 did it this way. Not good stats. Stewart My country doctor runs her practice like a clinic. When I first started going there many years ago, she charged $5 for those without insurance. I think it's $35 or $40 now. She knows how to milk the Pharma system, taking as many samples as she can, then giving them to those who need them most and can least afford them. Her waiting room tables and magazine stands are covered with computer mags--Macworld, PC World, IT mags, etc. She started automating at least ten years ago on her own. She walks around with a portable phone clipped to her belt and a bluetooth headset, to take patient calls. Her records are digital, as are the prescriptions she writes. She's a real geek--in a good way--and is a good advocate for her patients whose insurance companies deny procedures that they're supposed to cover. She's had to raise fees over the years to cover the cost of a separate office that only handles insurance claim problems. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Good for her. I applaud professionals like that and if I were close I would use her. Stewart At 12:23 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote: My country doctor runs her practice like a clinic. When I first started going there many years ago, she charged $5 for those without insurance. I think it's $35 or $40 now. She knows how to milk the Pharma system, taking as many samples as she can, then giving them to those who need them most and can least afford them. Her waiting room tables and magazine stands are covered with computer mags--Macworld, PC World, IT mags, etc. She started automating at least ten years ago on her own. She walks around with a portable phone clipped to her belt and a bluetooth headset, to take patient calls. Her records are digital, as are the prescriptions she writes. She's a real geek--in a good way--and is a good advocate for her patients whose insurance companies deny procedures that they're supposed to cover. She's had to raise fees over the years to cover the cost of a separate office that only handles insurance claim problems. Betty Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
When I worked for the Vet Company as hardware support, we were often chided for what we charged for support and equipment by those who had no support contracts. It was explained to us this way. You are giving them a service., They have no compunction charging you for a service when you go into the Vet clinic so you should not feel bad about charging them for a service when they call here. By the way the guy telling us this had been a practicing Vet. Doctors can complain that it will cost them money to spend on the technology, but that is short term foolish. The long term gains they could make from increased efficiency, less duplication, better service, less mistakes would be recouped by increased profits fast.. Stewart At 12:23 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote: My country doctor runs her practice like a clinic. When I first started going there many years ago, she charged $5 for those without insurance. I think it's $35 or $40 now. She knows how to milk the Pharma system, taking as many samples as she can, then giving them to those who need them most and can least afford them. Her waiting room tables and magazine stands are covered with computer mags--Macworld, PC World, IT mags, etc. She started automating at least ten years ago on her own. She walks around with a portable phone clipped to her belt and a bluetooth headset, to take patient calls. Her records are digital, as are the prescriptions she writes. She's a real geek--in a good way--and is a good advocate for her patients whose insurance companies deny procedures that they're supposed to cover. She's had to raise fees over the years to cover the cost of a separate office that only handles insurance claim problems. Betty Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
That would be nice, but far from a requirement. We buy goods and services because we want them. How many things do you own that actually make you money? And be honest here. Do most things you own supply you with a check at the end of the month you can take to the bank? I realize anything can be rationalized, just like healthcare keeping people healthy so they can work and better our economy. However that's not why I'm for it. I just think people should be healthy. The healthier they are, chances are the healthier I'll be. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 4:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: Once again I have to point out government programs aren't created and meant to make a profit. Ya think? How about if they break even? That would be a hoot. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
I'm an ignorant ass because I don't agree with you and don't see why you keep refusing to understand the word option? If that's the case I guess I'm an ignorant ass most of the time. It's worked for me for 47 years, why quit now? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 4:47 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: Where are you getting this nonsense? What part of option won't flow through your head? I'd recommend using a hammer, but then you'd have to use your insurance. That is if you have insurance. Option means optional. Wham, wham, wham. Bang your head against the wall a few more times and it might sink in. Yep. Should have started punching myself in the head. The end result is the same. Go be an ignorant ass on someone else's time. Buh-bye. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Now here I totally agree with you. But we, the government, is mostly the problem. We make new laws on knee jerk reactions. We rarely take old laws off the books. Corporations constantly want more and more for their work force $, and we seem to feel it's our responsibility to give it to them while COEs are making hundreds of millions of $ in bonuses. We have to blame ourselves because we're letting them do it. On the healthcare issue, I'm for providing for everyone. However I'm totally against the insurance industry. Do I realistically think there's anything I can do about that? No. I had mentioned before that I have congestive heart failure. After being diagnosed I paid all my medical bills and prescriptions myself. I didn't mind. I've always thought if you need something you pay for it. It wasn't till 4 years later and put in the ICU that some lady filled out a bunch of paperwork for me and now I get SSI and Washington STATE pays all my medical bills. I'm not going to complain. I didn't realize they would do that, but now that they are my money gets filtered into the economy in different areas. Regardless of who gets it, sooner or later it's going to end up there and not in my pocket. Why, because I like THINGS. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 4:45 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: We ain't govmuent then whats be we? I don't work in a labor camp. I'm not forced into an army. Hell I'm not even made to feed the chickens. Damn, how did this govment I'm not a part of get so out of control? By the way, next time you feel we aren't all the government, lets see what happens when no one votes. Then we're talking revolution. Every year we work longer and longer to pay the guvmint our tax burden and every year we become less free as more laws are passed that restrict our freedom just a little bit more than last year. At this point, you're in the pot and think the water temperature is just fine. You won't think anything is wrong until the soup's done. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
So we have things in place that could lower all our costs but we aren't using them. To me this sounds like a very good reason for government/us to get involved. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 9, 2009, at 6:27 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: One side of it is that Doctors did not need to purchase it and did not. Professionals are notorious (I mean Doctors etc.) in keeping up with the latest technology. With all the doctors I get to see with my wife We have only seen one clinic (Othopods) who used tablets and kept all their records on computers. He was able to call up the record, even an MRI on tablet and then send it to a viewer and show us the MRI. This is out of 10 doctors 1 did it this way. Not good stats. Stewart At 11:14 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote: Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste. Whatever happened with that? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
I heard someone saying on the radio or television, I don't recall where, that we should require when any new law goes on the books they should have to remove one also. On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote: Now here I totally agree with you. But we, the government, is mostly the problem. We make new laws on knee jerk reactions. We rarely take old laws off the books. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 09:57:52 -0400, Jeff Wright wrote: I'm out of this discussion at this point. It has devolved into the usual partisan nonsense. Sa-weet! Anybody else care to drop it so's we can get more on topic, like Steve Job's health? Oh wait . . . -- R:\katan There's only 10 kinds of people who understand binary. Those who do, and those who don't. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Did you ever read on how he got his transplant? It is an interesting story and shows you the disparity we have at present in the Medical Insurance system. Stewart At 06:27 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote: Sa-weet! Anybody else care to drop it so's we can get more on topic, like Steve Job's health? Oh wait . . . Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 18:35:59 -0500, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Did you ever read on how he got his transplant? It is an interesting story and shows you the disparity we have at present in the Medical Insurance system. At 06:27 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote: Sa-weet! Anybody else care to drop it so's we can get more on topic, like Steve Job's health? Oh wait . . . Please, no, Stewart, I *REALY* don't want to keep this stoopid thread going. -- R:\katan LET'S GO METS!! LET'S GO METS!! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
When was the last time you were in Cuba, and does the US know about your visit? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 9:59 AM, John Emmerling wrote: Although it would be nice to cite a reference for the world's health statistics, I suspect that if Cuba looks good in any such listing, it is due to the Mussolini made the trains run on time principle. Cuban physicians and other health workers do as they are told. I doubt anyone in authority there is telling them to report anything that would jeopardize Cuba's high ranking in these statistics. Please don't misconstrue what I have just said as a defense of the U.S. system. It has its virtues, but compared to some others, it ranks poorly overall by most measures. Nevertheless, I think the discourse is best served when limited to countries with at least a smidgen of political freedom. Compared to Cuba, apartheid-era South Africa was a beacon of democracy. On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Steve at Verizon stevet...@verizon.net wrote: Then why are Cuban doctors fleeing to the US? See this article from the NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/health/04cuba.html?_r=1partner=rssemc=rsspagewanted=all phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Fred Holmesf...@his.com wrote: If you drive the drug companies out of business, then the government will have to manufacture current drugs and develop new ones. Will they do a better job of it? Unlikely! For what it is worth, Cuba has one of the best, if not the overall best health care system in the world. Check out the world's health statistics and see for yourself. Marcio can speak to this issue I am sure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
And I thought this public option health care system was just going to cost us $. What was I thinking? If we pass the health care plan will we all have to convert to satanism as well? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:26 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote: My point is that for Cubans, they pay a very high price for their free medical care, and that is a totalitarian government, human rights abuse, no free press, jails full of political prisoners, required listening to 5 hour speeches by Fidel (before his illness). And even their mass production of doctors is not purely a humanitarian gesture; they are used as an export commodity. Witness the 100s of doctors sent to Venezuela in exchange for her oil. We are in agreement that many of the most talented, be they pitchers or doctors or architects (my sister's galfriend's ex-Cuban husband) prefer to be compensated accordingly. Thank god that there are some altruistic physicians (worldwide, not just Cuba), who forgo high salaries for religious or political reasons to support their communities, as they are needed there, but this should be a choice of the individual not the state. phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Steve at Verizonstevet...@verizon.net wrote: Then why are Cuban doctors fleeing to the US? See this article from the NYT. For the money, primarily. Also, for a higher overall standard of living or because they do not support the government there or they have relatives inthe U.S. Cuba has some of the best baseball teams and players as well, but just because they are some of the best does not mean that they will not try to leave for the United States where they can make a lot of money and live far higher on the hog, so to speak. Please do not attempt to make the case that because some Cuban doctors want to leave that island that it somehow implies that the Cuban medical system is some giant dysfunctional mess and a failure. Wealthy Americans routinely seek to move their assets offshore, out of the country, but that does not mean that the financial system of the United States is some abysmal failure. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Finally a breath of fresh air and common sense. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 10:38 AM, b_s-wilk wrote: I am also losing faith in Obama... he is not standing up for what he believes. He is afraid of big business. I understand, he is not independently wealthy like JFK. Marcio Let's all get a handle on this Mario, et al. You and others are losing faith in President Obama. Why? Because he may not be able to do in 9 months what FDR took over 4 years to do. It's too soon for a postmortem before a bill has even been finished, no matter what creeps like Glenn Beck and Charles Krauthammer say. Give Obama time to herd the Congress toward a better bill. He's waiting. Patience. Affordable health insurance for all could happen, maybe incrementally, although Medicare for all is best for the US, on a voluntary basis. We won't get single payer because the people spreading the lies about it [drug companies, insurance companies] are too successful in confusing people and have too much money to spread their propaganda. Corporate propaganda must be successful considering the people who want the government to keep hands off Medicare, not realizing it's a successful government program. It's the same kind of clueless people who go to Tea Party protests, not knowing that the original Boston Tea Party was the result of taxes being TOO LOW. We are the government. We shouldn't be afraid, just because some corporations want us to fear. Fear the corporate databases, not the government. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
She said we, she didn't say you. We aren't including you. So don't bother voting next election. It won't be counted. You're not included. Oh, we'll still be taking SS out of your paycheck. Probably LI as well, but you aren't part of our government. Wow, how freeing that must feel. A man of the world. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: We are the government. We shouldn't be afraid, just because some corporations want us to fear. Fear the corporate databases, not the government. Thanks for the larf, Betty. Good one! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
This is a terrible comparison. But if you must, the airline travel industry has also gone to hell. I don't know how much you fly, but it's miserable today as compared to 20 years ago. A couple of weeks ago Alaska airlines started charging for even my first checked bag. And they don't bother telling you this till you're at the counter. So go to the airport with cash in your pocket. The seating space on planes has decreased. No movies unless you pay for the headsets. And you get meals on a long flight if you pay for them. But all of this of course is if you are flying coach. First class is a different story, and the only thing I'd fly nowadays on a flight longer then 4 hours. But then again, you have to pay for it. Hmmm, coach healthcare and then first class healthcare if I'm willing to pay for it. What a concept. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: I'm behind on my email, but one problem is that anymore there are few actual insurance companies. The big ones keep buying the smaller ones to limit competition. Compare a list of airline companies from 1980, shortly after the airlines were deregulated, and compare that list to today. I think you'll see a significant difference in the list, not to mention the cost to the consumer to fly. I don't know why people think that insurance companies, when they aren't being propped up by the states with laws that limit their competition, don't have to obey the laws of supply and demand. I have to say, I'm really stumped by this attitude. H, it seems that they are good at dropping people who actually need to use their services. See examples of recision by the health insurance companies. If someone gets sick and starts costing them money hurting the profit potential of the company, the insurance company finds a way to ditch the person/company. See above. You and the Rev really need to get your heads around the status quo. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
The title says what? 89 people were polled and those who were interested in whoever was doing the polling were against healthcare? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 1:38 PM, mike wrote: Dueling links? http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose The title says it. On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Jordan jor17...@gmail.com wrote: I hate to throw cold water on all this fun, but wasting time talking about all this fear and straw men is just what the right wing wants you to do. That little video posted a while back is enough for any rational person to get the picture. http://brightcove.newscientist.com/services/player/bcpid2227271001?bctid=30583310001 The public is overwhelmingly for single payer. If congress does anything but work toward putting together a strong single payer plan then they've let the wingers win. It's fear vs. facts. phartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Fred Holmesf...@his.com wrote: If you drive the drug companies out of business, then the government will have to manufacture current drugs and develop new ones. Will they do a better job of it? Unlikely! For what it is worth, Cuba has one of the best, if not the overall best health care system in the world. Check out the world's health statistics and see for yourself. Marcio can speak to this issue I am sure. Cuba is one poor as hell nation, and the Cuban health care system is government run, yet is at the top of the A list worldwide. Socialist? Yes. Works extremely well overall? Yes. Far lower child death rate than here in the United States? By far. All citizens get health care? Absolutely. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
This is the standard response when someone doesn't have a decent argument. If you like it so much, why don't you move there? This is a crap argument. If the French found out how to create nuclear fusion, should we all move there, or should we import the idea? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Marcio wrote: This is interesting. I am not pro-Cuba and I dislike Fidel as a ditactoir. I agree that Cuba is doing very poorly, partially because of the US embargo. But I beleive that socialism as in Cuba will never work. As I said before I believe in a combination of capitalism with socialized programs. But I will have to agree that Cuba has a better health care and school system that Brazil and the USA. No doubt. Health care and schools must be socialized in order to work. Marcio -Original Message- From: Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com Sent: Sep 7, 2009 3:50 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit... For what it is worth, Cuba has one of the best, if not the overall best health care system in the world. Check out the world's health statistics and see for yourself. Marcio can speak to this issue I am sure. Cuba is one poor as hell nation, and the Cuban health care system is government run, yet is at the top of the A list worldwide. Socialist? Yes. Works extremely well overall? Yes. Far lower child death rate than here in the United States? By far. All citizens get health care? Absolutely. Sounds like paradise. Why aren't you living there? I'm sure the Cuban guvmint has no reason to lie to or distort the truth. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Good. Why are there some, with no interest, so interested in protecting these crooks? If you don't work for, own interest in or own the company out right, what do you care if a crooked insurance company goes out of business? I'm playing Mafia Wars, but it's just a game. These insurance companies play it for real. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: And the ones who will choose choice will be the employers, dumping their health care, and then you, the employee, will have only one choice, the public option. That is what is happening in Massachusetts; the employers would rather pay the penalty for not providing health insurance. And, as I pointed out earlier, the more folks are government insured, the surge in baby boom Medicare, as well as a large public option, the less provider reimbursement will come from private insurers which compensate for the losses from government reimbursement. And, of course, private insurers can't compete with a government run public plan. A private business cannot operate at a loss, the way a government subsidized entity can (like the USPS and Amtrak). Marcio wrote: Whjy are you afraid of a choice between the private insurers and a government program? I said: choice. Marcio -Original Message- From: Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com Sent: Sep 7, 2009 3:49 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit... This is one subspecialty that is also elective surgery. Now say the same thing about cardiac stints, hernia surgery etc. Yes, I understand that. It's one of the better analogs for demonstrating that the medical industry can deliver quality care with cost awareness. Why wouldn't it work for cardiac stents, hernias, tonsils, etc? It wouldn't work very well for time-sensitive/emergency care or for critical care situations such as cancer treatment, but there is a world of medicine where price can and should matter. We can reform health care the smart way, as proposed by Mackey and illustrated in the article you linked with truly innovative ideas, or the dumb way, with price controls, massive budget deficits and a very high probability of rationing with nowhere else to turn. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Just a thought, but if we stopped calling it the US and just called it us maybe people would remember. Then maybe healthcare for us might sound more attractive. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 4:24 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: Did you notice any Country in this world copying the USA system?... Marcio Oh, that's not going to work, Marcio. Any suggestion, any hint, that the US might not be the best in the world at ANYTHING gets the right wing's nose out of joint. Try that on Fox Nation and all you'll get is a chorus of YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE? LEAVE! They are not fond of any kind of criticism of the US. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive care unit
Where do you come up with these figures? Have they been fed to you or are they just off the top of your head? You did get to the meat of the problem however. We might have great medical care here in us. But getting it and being able to have access to it is a totally different story. And that is what we're talking about. As for letting the free market work for insurance companies, I'm all for that. Let's stop requiring insurance for damn near everything. Let's make it an option. Do you want to buy a house? You don't have to buy fire insurance. You want to drive a car? You don't have to have whatever insurance. You want to live a few years more? You don't have to buy health insurance. But the option could be there if you do. I agree that the problem lays in prices charged. But I also believe it's our insurance industry that's created this problem, not the lack of free market. How much did you pay to your don last month? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote: For you to say that the health care in Cuba is better than the United States may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard. Given the choice...you mean to tell me that you would fly to Cuba to have open heart surgery instead of having it done by a specialist here? You answered no...I'm certain...which means then, that health care is NOT better in Cuba. You are free to move to Cuba, collect your $3 a month wage and enjoy that health care. Do not confuse health care costs with health care. There is a world of difference between the two. Socializing our health care system will not only hurt our economy...but it will ruin medicine in the United States. You can do some things to fix the cost...without changing the entire system. 85% of the population is perfectly happy with their health care. So you want to wreck what the 85% enjoy so that the 15% get free health care coverage? That's like having 85% of a restaraunt's clientele perfectly happy with the food at a given restaurant...but in order to please the other 15%, we bulldoze the building. Makes just as much sense as bulldozing the current system to satisfy the few, and to satisfy the socialists (Obama, Reid, Pelosi) who want more and more government control over every facet of our lives. Expand medicare to cover those who legitimately cannot afford health care. I'm not talking about those who whine that they can't afford insurance but have two cars, a house they can't afford, cell phones, top tier cable tv and other luxuries. How about if we actually let the free market work for insurance like it does almost every other industry. There are only so many companies I am allowed to buy insurance from. Those are federal regulations and state regulations, and it benefits the insurance company ensuring them of a monopoly of sorts. Let me buy my health insurance anywhere I want - provided they meet federal regulations. That will increase choice of product dramatically, which will increase competition, which will drive down prices and improve service. The free markets have NOT been tried with insurance. Loser pays as part of Tort reform. If you file a bogus lawsuit and lose, you pay the cost of the legal fees for the doctor or pharmacuetical company you just sued. That would just about put an end to the frivelous and phony lawsuits. Doctors and drug companies and anybody else who can be sued pay huge, huge fees for insurance...which of course if passed along to the consumer. Won't happen though. Why? The majority of congress are lawyers. No...there are plenty of things that can be done besides turning us into a socialist country. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
? where you been Marcio? I Thought that what I've been doing all along. Though many of those views are well received. I need to explain a few things here. I suffer from congestive heart failure. From what I could find my survival rate was 13% after being diagnosed for the first 5 years. I'm on year 6.5 and feeling ok. I had no insurance when I initially went to the clinic and then the doctor. I spent about 5 minutes filling out paperwork. That was the first time. In the hospital I spent no time filling out anything. Everything got filled out for me. By who I don't know. But now I get all my meds for free. I also get food stamps at $200/mo which I rarely use. I never asked for them. But what the hell. I even got a letter from the state questioning why I wasn't using them. And to further explain the story, I started getting $97/mo and then got a letter saying I needed $174/mo. If I had problems with this I could ask for a review and debate the the decision. A couple of months later they uped it to $200/mo, It came with the same proviso that I could challenge this if I thought it wasn't enough. Like I said earlier, I eat steak twice a week. I try and find new recipes for the chicken, fish and pork the rest of the week. I think us wants me to be obese. I could live on Top Raman and a ham sandwich or two for most any week. I should look more closely at the king crab legs. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Marcio wrote: Share you views and perceptions Jeff. Marcio -Original Message- From: Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Sent: Sep 7, 2009 7:39 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit... Sorry to say, but you sound like the guy who sits on his porch and yells at the kids for being on his lawn. I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing the mail carriers aren't allowed to actually put something in your home. So using the mail slot probably isn't a legal option for them. I do know for sure that only the USPS is allowed to use your mail box. This is why you get things from pizza companies and others hanging on your door knob. As for the signing for things. Would you be complaining if they left something important that was then stolen by some sleaze bag? You always have the option of not picking up the package or letter that need a signature. And when it comes to the postal employee pay, I don't think they get paid enough. The employees at all the postal stations in my area are some of the friendliest people I've met. I know I couldn't do their job and remain that friendly. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 6, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Regularly, I get other people's mail delivered to my home. On some occasions, it has been outgoing mail that the mail carrier has picked up at someone else's home. The mail may arrive at any time from 10:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., which says that they don't have a standard, routine manner in which the deliver the mail. I took down the mailbox on the front of my house and installed a mail slot in my front door, but the letter carriers often won't use it. The just leave the mail inside the storm door, which then stays partially propped open and thereby doesn't perform its intended purpose. When I'm not home to sign for a receipted item of mail, there is no clue on the postcard announcement that is left at my home as to who the sender is or what sort of article it is, so there is no way to prioritize my visit to the Post Office. And with post office hours now reduced to 9:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., working folks have to take additional time off from work to stop at the post o! ffice to pick up receipted mail. But the letter carriers have an extremely good pay and benefits package. Fred Holmes At 03:04 AM 9/6/2009, Jeff Miles wrote: True, the post office certainly has on many occasions. Does anyone really stop and think what the post office does on a daily basis? I have yet to find a privet company that has worked as efficiently and consistently. And, being governmentally run, the post office's goal isn't to make a profit. No government program is run to make a profit. People bitch when the programs loose money, and they'd bitch about prices and taxes if the programs were making money. It's a no win situation. I have yet, in my 47 years, realized something getting lossed by the USPS. On occasion it's taken a day or more to get here or there. But at the cost, I really can't complain. And with the millions of letters and packages they deal with each day, Fed-Ex and UPS seem to be doing just fine. In fact new people are coming on board. What's the new one? Some Yellow truck, 3 letters, can't remember the name
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Move down here and we can remedy that situation for you. Not all states are as generous and $200 a month for groceries are a minmum. Stewart At 06:59 AM 9/8/2009, you wrote: ? where you been Marcio? I Thought that what I've been doing all along. Though many of those views are well received. I need to explain a few things here. I suffer from congestive heart failure. From what I could find my survival rate was 13% after being diagnosed for the first 5 years. I'm on year 6.5 and feeling ok. I had no insurance when I initially went to the clinic and then the doctor. I spent about 5 minutes filling out paperwork. That was the first time. In the hospital I spent no time filling out anything. Everything got filled out for me. By who I don't know. But now I get all my meds for free. I also get food stamps at $200/mo which I rarely use. I never asked for them. But what the hell. I even got a letter from the state questioning why I wasn't using them. And to further explain the story, I started getting $97/mo and then got a letter saying I needed $174/mo. If I had problems with this I could ask for a review and debate the the decision. A couple of months later they uped it to $200/mo, It came with the same proviso that I could challenge this if I thought it wasn't enough. Like I said earlier, I eat steak twice a week. I try and find new recipes for the chicken, fish and pork the rest of the week. I think us wants me to be obese. I could live on Top Raman and a ham sandwich or two for most any week. I should look more closely at the king crab legs. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Marcio wrote: Share you views and perceptions Jeff. Marcio -Original Message- From: Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Sent: Sep 7, 2009 7:39 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit... Sorry to say, but you sound like the guy who sits on his porch and yells at the kids for being on his lawn. I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing the mail carriers aren't allowed to actually put something in your home. So using the mail slot probably isn't a legal option for them. I do know for sure that only the USPS is allowed to use your mail box. This is why you get things from pizza companies and others hanging on your door knob. As for the signing for things. Would you be complaining if they left something important that was then stolen by some sleaze bag? You always have the option of not picking up the package or letter that need a signature. And when it comes to the postal employee pay, I don't think they get paid enough. The employees at all the postal stations in my area are some of the friendliest people I've met. I know I couldn't do their job and remain that friendly. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 6, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Regularly, I get other people's mail delivered to my home. On some occasions, it has been outgoing mail that the mail carrier has picked up at someone else's home. The mail may arrive at any time from 10:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., which says that they don't have a standard, routine manner in which the deliver the mail. I took down the mailbox on the front of my house and installed a mail slot in my front door, but the letter carriers often won't use it. The just leave the mail inside the storm door, which then stays partially propped open and thereby doesn't perform its intended purpose. When I'm not home to sign for a receipted item of mail, there is no clue on the postcard announcement that is left at my home as to who the sender is or what sort of article it is, so there is no way to prioritize my visit to the Post Office. And with post office hours now reduced to 9:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., working folks have to take additional time off from work to stop at the post o! ffice to pick up receipted mail. But the letter carriers have an extremely good pay and benefits package. Fred Holmes At 03:04 AM 9/6/2009, Jeff Miles wrote: True, the post office certainly has on many occasions. Does anyone really stop and think what the post office does on a daily basis? I have yet to find a privet company that has worked as efficiently and consistently. And, being governmentally run, the post office's goal isn't to make a profit. No government program is run to make a profit. People bitch when the programs loose money, and they'd bitch about prices and taxes if the programs were making money. It's a no win situation. I have yet, in my 47 years, realized something getting lossed by the USPS. On occasion it's taken a day or more to get here or there. But at the cost, I really can't complain. And with the millions of letters and packages they deal with each
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:54 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: Rev, now you miss his point. If you allow companies to compete over state lines, removing their captive audience, you won't *need* mandates. That's what competition is best at providing: choice. You mean like when we got rid of the laws that required local banking? That worked very well. Didn't it? If you look for banks that did not get caught in the sub-prime fiasco you will find that these were banks run by local bankers who knew who and what was getting the loan. You will also find that such banks that are willing to work with their customers when times get tough and did not rush to foreclose. And why does the federal government have Medicaid administered by the states? You might find the answer above. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Not only do you have to pay but their scales in many cases are not regulated. (Paid a $50 penalty on a flight recently for an overweight bag. One between the two of us. ) Read a story about an airport where they went through and calibrated the scales. Many were off by a few pounds. Stewart At 03:17 AM 9/8/2009, you wrote: This is a terrible comparison. But if you must, the airline travel industry has also gone to hell. I don't know how much you fly, but it's miserable today as compared to 20 years ago. A couple of weeks ago Alaska airlines started charging for even my first checked bag. And they don't bother telling you this till you're at the counter. So go to the airport with cash in your pocket. The seating space on planes has decreased. No movies unless you pay for the headsets. And you get meals on a long flight if you pay for them. But all of this of course is if you are flying coach. First class is a different story, and the only thing I'd fly nowadays on a flight longer then 4 hours. But then again, you have to pay for it. Hmmm, coach healthcare and then first class healthcare if I'm willing to pay for it. What a concept. Jeff Miles Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Jeff you got me interested. Don´t be impressed by statistics and be careful with the information you get from the Internet. Talk with your doctor. Cardiology is a branch of medicine that is growing a lot and you will never know what is coming next. My advice: if you are feeling good live life to the fullest, enjoy each minute of it, and let diseases become bigger than they deserve. Insofar as health care. I guess you fell into the Medicaid support network? I am not sure in which State you live but people who who receive Medicaid, as a rule have pretty good services. Of course, as you know, it is a socialized program, the tax payers (Federal and State) share the costs. The problem are the people who can´t receive Medicaid because they are not considered poor (there is a scale to determine who is elegible). People who earn more that the minimum required, are not above 65 years old (another socialized program) and have no insurance public or private. They are a large number. They are people who lost their jobs, people who developped a disease and are no longer accepted in new insurance, people who are afraid of changind jobs for fear of losing their insurance. They are many! When I discuss in favor of the Singloe Payer I am saying that everyone should take the risks and have access. If you lump Medicaid, Medicare, VA, ald all other health care programs in one... the burden in the citizen will be minimal and everyone will have access. Hope you understand. Live life to the fullest. It goes lasts such a short time... Marcio -Original Message- From: Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Sent: Sep 8, 2009 8:59 AM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit... ? where you been Marcio? I Thought that what I've been doing all along. Though many of those views are well received. I need to explain a few things here. I suffer from congestive heart failure. From what I could find my survival rate was 13% after being diagnosed for the first 5 years. I'm on year 6.5 and feeling ok. I had no insurance when I initially went to the clinic and then the doctor. I spent about 5 minutes filling out paperwork. That was the first time. In the hospital I spent no time filling out anything. Everything got filled out for me. By who I don't know. But now I get all my meds for free. I also get food stamps at $200/mo which I rarely use. I never asked for them. But what the hell. I even got a letter from the state questioning why I wasn't using them. And to further explain the story, I started getting $97/mo and then got a letter saying I needed $174/mo. If I had problems with this I could ask for a review and debate the the decision. A couple of months later they uped it to $200/mo, It came with the same proviso that I could challenge this if I thought it wasn't enough. Like I said earlier, I eat steak twice a week. I try and find new recipes for the chicken, fish and pork the rest of the week. I think us wants me to be obese. I could live on Top Raman and a ham sandwich or two for most any week. I should look more closely at the king crab legs. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Marcio wrote: Share you views and perceptions Jeff. Marcio -Original Message- From: Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Sent: Sep 7, 2009 7:39 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit... Sorry to say, but you sound like the guy who sits on his porch and yells at the kids for being on his lawn. I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing the mail carriers aren't allowed to actually put something in your home. So using the mail slot probably isn't a legal option for them. I do know for sure that only the USPS is allowed to use your mail box. This is why you get things from pizza companies and others hanging on your door knob. As for the signing for things. Would you be complaining if they left something important that was then stolen by some sleaze bag? You always have the option of not picking up the package or letter that need a signature. And when it comes to the postal employee pay, I don't think they get paid enough. The employees at all the postal stations in my area are some of the friendliest people I've met. I know I couldn't do their job and remain that friendly. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 6, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: Regularly, I get other people's mail delivered to my home. On some occasions, it has been outgoing mail that the mail carrier has picked up at someone else's home. The mail may arrive at any time from 10:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., which says that they don't have a standard, routine manner
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 6, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: That food, which uses a mixed but largely free market system, is so cheap and plentiful that even the poor can easily afford it, is lost on the socialized medicine proponents. Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? This is another issue that Americans will have to face up to. Corporate farmers are polluting our world and serving up food from diseased animals. Our food is so strongly laced with antibiotics that they are breeding new strains of drug-resistant diseases. The corporate farmers are slowly killing us. Have a nice day! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Fred Holmes wrote: But liberals proclaim that you should never defend yourself against an attacker. You should run away and call the police. Why did this individual not follow the liberal doctrine? When _you_ are being attacked, you all of a sudden become a conservative, don't you? Make a note who's living in lala land. This is useful information. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 7, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Jordan wrote: http://brightcove.newscientist.com/services/player/bcpid2227271001?bctid=30583310001 Thank you. Very well thought out and rational. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:33 PM, mike wrote: You don't seem to have a full grasp on capitalism. If your letters didn't arrive you'd switch carriers and get them to arrive. It's called Fedex and UPS and DHL etc. Would one pizza shop across the nation be good? There was a time when you had to subscribe to a fire company to protect your house. Members of other fire companies would stand around and watch your house burn. I see you long for the good old days. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:34 PM, mike wrote: The UK and Canada are moving away from socialized medicine, not towards it. While this is definitely off topic, it is still very useful in the general context of the List's discussions about computers and technology. It gets us away from tainted topics like Macs vs PCs and lets us see how other people reason. This will be good to remember when we do get back to the main topic of the List. Some people just do not have a tight grasp on reality. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 6, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: We are being told that health care is a right. I disagree. Health care is paramount, no doubt, but it is no more a right than food or a place to live. If you encounter someone who is hungry and you don't feed them you are not being nice. If you encounter someone who is homeless and you don't shelter them you are not being nice. If you encounter someone who is bleeding to death and you don't help them you are a criminal. Tell us again that you don't see the difference. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: And the ones who will choose choice will be the employers, dumping their health care, and then you, the employee, will have only one choice, the public option. That is what is happening in Massachusetts; the employers would rather pay the penalty for not providing health insurance. Here in DC there are mandates on insurance companies that require provision of reasonable insurance at reasonable rates to DC citizens. As a DC-based employer I cannot get coverage that is as good and as affordable for my employees. Unfortunately, all my staff does not live in DC. If they did, you bet I would stop providing coverage. Anyone who would call that dumping their health care would be a jerk. There is no honor in enriching insurance company managers who earn their $100,000,000 salaries by pronouncing death sentences on the sick, the poor, and the crippled. I guess they insist on being rewarded in this world to compensate for the torment they will surely suffer in the next. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste. Whatever happened with that? Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 8:37 PM, t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:34 PM, mike wrote: The UK and Canada are moving away from socialized medicine, not towards it. While this is definitely off topic, it is still very useful in the general context of the List's discussions about computers and technology. It gets us away from tainted topics like Macs vs PCs and lets us see how other people reason. This will be good to remember when we do get back to the main topic of the List. Some people just do not have a tight grasp on reality. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Sounds like paradise. Why aren't you living there? I was just waiting for the old love it or leave it bullshit to start. Why can't an intelligent and respectful conversation take place without descending into the pit of old worn out saws such as that? Really? You saw love or leave it in there? I asked you a simple question, to which you read a great deal into that wasn't there. If it's that great, why aren't you living there? Could there be other reasons you aren't? Why don't you go on the internet, or seek the information anywhere you choose to, to discover how abysmal the overall health care in the United States really is, especially when viewed in light of our extreme financial wealth? I have, many times. Yes, we spend more on health care. We also spend more on many other things as well things, compared to countries such as France and Germany. Does our government lie and distort the truth? Does our current administration lie and distort the truth? Did our most recent previous administration lie and distort the truth, or is such the sole provence of Cuba or any other nation that is not our own? Please stop this silliness. Where did I suggest that our own govt doesnt lie? Everyone is doing so that makes it OK? I'm being silly? Please. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
I did find it interesting someone would equate violence with either being liberal or conservative. I personally know some pretty passive conservatives and also some pretty violent liberals. I don't think how you feel about Sarah Palin and her views makes you one or the other. I won't go any further then that on my views of the woman. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 8:47 PM, t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Fred Holmes wrote: But liberals proclaim that you should never defend yourself against an attacker. You should run away and call the police. Why did this individual not follow the liberal doctrine? When _you_ are being attacked, you all of a sudden become a conservative, don't you? Make a note who's living in lala land. This is useful information. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
As one with family from Cuba and some friends remaining, I can assure you that Jeff W. has no idea about Cuba, considering his comments. It's their health care insurance system and outcomes that are better than ours, not the high tech gadgets and expensive doctors. The Cuban government, thanks to US intervention and unnecessary embargos, is oppressive, and the people are suffering from that. Government oppression has not affected the affordability and quality of outcomes in Cuba, which are more favorable than in the US, with insurance and care universally available, unlike here. I was wondering when you would get around to apologizing for tyrants. The Cuban govt is oppressive because it chooses to be and can be. The embargo is stupid and should have been lifted long ago, but many, many other countries have managed to oppress their people without any US embargo. I thought of you and your talking points post when I read Camille Paglia's latest column. …affluent middle-class Democrats now seem to be complacently servile toward authority and automatically believe everything party leaders tell them. Why? Is it because the new professional class is a glossy product of generically institutionalized learning? Independent thought and logical analysis of argument are no longer taught. Elite education in the U.S. has become a frenetic assembly line of competitive college application to schools where ideological brainwashing is so pandemic that it’s invisible. The top schools, from the Ivy League on down, promote “critical thinking,” which sounds good but is in fact just a style of rote regurgitation of hackneyed approved terms (”racism, sexism, homophobia”) when confronted with any social issue. The Democratic brain has been marinating so long in those cliches that it’s positively pickled… By a proportion of something like 10-to-1, negative articles by conservatives were vastly more detailed, specific and practical about the proposals than were supportive articles by Democrats, which often made gestures rather than arguments and brimmed with emotion and sneers. There was a glaring inability in most Democratic commentary to think ahead and forecast what would or could be the actual snarled consequences-- in terms of delays, denial of services, errors, miscommunications and gross invasions of privacy -- of a massive single-payer overhaul of the healthcare system in a nation as large and populous as ours. It was as if Democrats live in a utopian dream world, divorced from the daily demands and realities of organization and management. Read more. http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/09/09/healthcare/ * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? This is another issue that Americans will have to face up to. Corporate farmers are polluting our world and serving up food from diseased animals. Our food is so strongly laced with antibiotics that they are breeding new strains of drug-resistant diseases. The corporate farmers are slowly killing us. Have a nice day! S, Tom, the grownups are talking. Yes, your non-sequitors are very nice. Uh-huh, I know, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Run along now and go play. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
You mean like when we got rid of the laws that required local banking? That worked very well. Didn't it? If you look for banks that did not get caught in the sub-prime fiasco you will find that these were banks run by local bankers who knew who and what was getting the loan. You will also find that such banks that are willing to work with their customers when times get tough and did not rush to foreclose. Actually, you will find the banks that survived were the ones who were more diversified in their holdings. The one that went tits up were the old investment houses that only recently started banking businesses. And why does the federal government have Medicaid administered by the states? You might find the answer above. And why is Medicare an actuarial mess and lurching towards insolvency? I think you'll find your answer somewhere around reality. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Jeff Miles wrote: Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste. Whatever happened with that? Healtheon merged with WebMD in 1999. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
If you encounter someone who is hungry and you don't feed them you are not being nice. If you encounter someone who is homeless and you don't shelter them you are not being nice. If you encounter someone who is bleeding to death and you don't help them you are a criminal. Tell us again that you don't see the difference. The only thing I'm not seeing here is a point. D-. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
She said we, she didn't say you. We aren't including you. So don't bother voting next election. It won't be counted. You're not included. Oh, we'll still be taking SS out of your paycheck. Probably LI as well, but you aren't part of our government. Wow, how freeing that must feel. A man of the world. Oh! To the heart! You big meanie. Yes, it was a very nice DNC talking points post. Filled with null data and misty eyed nostalgic naiveté. We ain't been the guvmint for some time now, but please, don't let me interrupt the fantasy that any of us still have a role to play other than thrall. I knew I should have just started punching myself in the head, rather than let myself get dragged into one of these pointless health care arguments. It always degrades into partisan idiocy. Life's too short... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
I'm amazed that those against health care options don't see the insurance companies as death panels. Because Sarah says it they're quick to jump on the idea when it comes to a federal health option, but seeing their own insurance companies as doing the same? Hand over the head motion here. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:02 PM, t.piwowar wrote: On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote: And the ones who will choose choice will be the employers, dumping their health care, and then you, the employee, will have only one choice, the public option. That is what is happening in Massachusetts; the employers would rather pay the penalty for not providing health insurance. Here in DC there are mandates on insurance companies that require provision of reasonable insurance at reasonable rates to DC citizens. As a DC-based employer I cannot get coverage that is as good and as affordable for my employees. Unfortunately, all my staff does not live in DC. If they did, you bet I would stop providing coverage. Anyone who would call that dumping their health care would be a jerk. There is no honor in enriching insurance company managers who earn their $100,000,000 salaries by pronouncing death sentences on the sick, the poor, and the crippled. I guess they insist on being rewarded in this world to compensate for the torment they will surely suffer in the next. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
This is a terrible comparison. But if you must, the airline travel industry has also gone to hell. I don't know how much you fly, but it's miserable today as compared to 20 years ago I fly a couple of times a year. It's OK. What I do know is that it's no longer only a tool for the businessman or the wealthy as it was pre-deregulation. Everyone can afford to fly now, which in my book, is a great thing. It's not the state-protected status quo, which again, that's a good thing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
I agree with the idea that if you love it so much why don't you move there is a BS argument. How about, if it works, lets bring it here? We import just about everything else, why not healthcare ideas? Oh, no money in it. Can we export our insurance companies to China with the proviso they stay there and not do business here? I was all for exporting wacko neocons to Alaska and let them drill to their hearts content if they weren't allowed back in the lower 48. They could drill and sit on their porches with binoculars and keep on eye on them pesky Russians. Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:18 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Sounds like paradise. Why aren't you living there? I was just waiting for the old love it or leave it bullshit to start. Why can't an intelligent and respectful conversation take place without descending into the pit of old worn out saws such as that? Really? You saw love or leave it in there? I asked you a simple question, to which you read a great deal into that wasn't there. If it's that great, why aren't you living there? Could there be other reasons you aren't? Why don't you go on the internet, or seek the information anywhere you choose to, to discover how abysmal the overall health care in the United States really is, especially when viewed in light of our extreme financial wealth? I have, many times. Yes, we spend more on health care. We also spend more on many other things as well things, compared to countries such as France and Germany. Does our government lie and distort the truth? Does our current administration lie and distort the truth? Did our most recent previous administration lie and distort the truth, or is such the sole provence of Cuba or any other nation that is not our own? Please stop this silliness. Where did I suggest that our own govt doesn’t lie? Everyone is doing so that makes it OK? I'm being silly? Please. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Hmmm, coach healthcare and then first class healthcare if I'm willing to pay for it. What a concept. Sounds like you're describing the UK's DHS or Canada's Medicare to a T. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
