Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Buchan Milne wrote: A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. Seen on a local LUG list: I made the mistake of changing my monitor, and now X doesn't seem to be running...I have no idea on how to fix the problem or where to start. I am currently running Mandrake 9.1. Is there a console program (like in RedHat, namely, setup and then to X setup) where you can fix the X display resolution / refresh rates? Or if there isn't, how can I set up my computer to use the default setting which allows any monitor to be connected to it and it still displays something. What files do I need to edit? This kind of question should never need to be asked ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/oQchrJK6UGDSBKcRArIrAKCsRiHT4l4W5zzB1YgS8MiblW6wjQCfcHrM LcqhL9RRyRx6yIBdxTlTv3w= =ygZ7 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 13:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Buchan Milne wrote: A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. Seen on a local LUG list: I made the mistake of changing my monitor, and now X doesn't seem to be running...I have no idea on how to fix the problem or where to start. I am currently running Mandrake 9.1. Is there a console program (like in RedHat, namely, setup and then to X setup) where you can fix the X display resolution / refresh rates? Or if there isn't, how can I set up my computer to use the default setting which allows any monitor to be connected to it and it still displays something. What files do I need to edit? This kind of question should never need to be asked ... Regards, Buchan Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... I could agree if he had said : i tried drakXfree and didn't found it, but here, he didn't even try to figure out. May be we should normalize definitively the Mandrake tools as drak* for example, but that's another point. Stef signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 13:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : Buchan Milne wrote: A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. Seen on a local LUG list: I made the mistake of changing my monitor, and now X doesn't seem to be running...I have no idea on how to fix the problem or where to start. I am currently running Mandrake 9.1. Is there a console program (like in RedHat, namely, setup and then to X setup) where you can fix the X display resolution / refresh rates? Or if there isn't, how can I set up my computer to use the default setting which allows any monitor to be connected to it and it still displays something. What files do I need to edit? This kind of question should never need to be asked ... Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... And what if the user had never used Redhat before??? This guy has been using Linux on hist desktop for over a year, do we expect newbies to know more than this? I could agree if he had said : i tried drakXfree and didn't found it, but here, he didn't even try to figure out. May be we should normalize definitively the Mandrake tools as drak* for example, but that's another point. This is largely irrelevant. For a desktop OS, it is criminal to dump a user in a console without any help if they have just changed the monitor. If we can't ensure that X will come up, why should newbies use Mandrake over Debian? Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/oRAurJK6UGDSBKcRAjXEAJ9v3nN6Qew1iQcNTKNy2oWoTtXIGACgo1/6 sN2E3j43jKjKf8rj29PI27g= =u8kz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Thursday 30 October 2003 08:11 am, Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: This kind of question should never need to be asked ... Regards, Buchan Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... I think Buchan's point is that if one tries to start X and it fails, XFdrake should be launched automatically to try and help the user fix the problem. -- /g Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read -Groucho Marx
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Thursday 30 October 2003 08:11, Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... That's great for that one user, but now there's Mandrake 9.2 Discovery Edition aimed at people who don't even know what a command line is. Those are the people who need a safe mode by default when X can't run. The truth is, Mandrake isn't like Red Hat, and nothing against Red Hat users but I hope it never is. It's always been easier and saying the end user should have known... is almost always not helpful. Rob
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:20, Buchan Milne a écrit : Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... And what if the user had never used Redhat before??? This guy has been using Linux on hist desktop for over a year, do we expect newbies to know more than this? Yes, but in that case, he should subscribe to MandrakeClub or buy a pack and solve this problem with the manual or on-line. I could agree if he had said : i tried drakXfree and didn't found it, but here, he didn't even try to figure out. May be we should normalize definitively the Mandrake tools as drak* for example, but that's another point. This is largely irrelevant. For a desktop OS, it is criminal to dump a user in a console without any help if they have just changed the monitor. If we can't ensure that X will come up, why should newbies use Mandrake over Debian? I agree on this point in the case you describe. I was just answering about THIS user in particular. BTW, i'm not sure if we should provide such -finger in the nose- practice that far : at the end, this is the kind of plus value one should expect from club membership and/or pack ? WDYT ? Regards, Buchan Regards, Stef signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 13:22, Greg Meyer wrote: I think Buchan's point is that if one tries to start X and it fails, XFdrake should be launched automatically to try and help the user fix the problem. Uh, it is. Anyone who uses nvidia drivers knows this, as every time you install a new kernel they aren't found, X fails to start, and Mandrake pops up two nice prompts offering to start XFdrake and show you the logs. Are you using gdm? That would be the *non-default* display manager, and this doesn't work with kdm or mdkkdm, and probably not 'startx' either. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/oRQdrJK6UGDSBKcRAh1LAKC8HjMj2DN6+BsZ2O5UQz/wwWofwACgs+iY ppMX2E4cbMNfAmAbGgEzzw8= =t52F -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Am Donnerstag, 30. Oktober 2003 14:11 schrieb Teletchéa Stéphane: Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 13:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ... Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... I could agree if he had said : i tried drakXfree and didn't found it, but here, he didn't even try to figure out. May be we should normalize definitively the Mandrake tools as drak* for example, but that's another point. We had that discussion allready ;) Back to the main point: I think Buchans idea isn't bad. If its only some comments of users thats missing i can give you a load of them. All sorts of things can fail, but if X fails to startup noobs are lost. I heard more then one time that people reinstall everything because X failed to start. So i second Buchans idea Steffen
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:20, Buchan Milne a écrit : Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... And what if the user had never used Redhat before??? This guy has been using Linux on hist desktop for over a year, do we expect newbies to know more than this? Yes, but in that case, he should subscribe to MandrakeClub or buy a pack and solve this problem with the manual or on-line. Why should he need a manual to do this trivial thing? When last did you need a manual to do this in Windows (I'm guessing it was Windows 3.1). This is largely irrelevant. For a desktop OS, it is criminal to dump a user in a console without any help if they have just changed the monitor. If we can't ensure that X will come up, why should newbies use Mandrake over Debian? I agree on this point in the case you describe. I was just answering about THIS user in particular. BTW, i'm not sure if we should provide such -finger in the nose- practice that far : at the end, this is the kind of plus value one should expect from club membership and/or pack ? So, we shouldn't be making a user-friendly linux distribution, instead we should make a user-unfriendly linux distribution, and then sell support? Sorry, but this business model is doomed. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/oRU4rJK6UGDSBKcRAoTCAJ0QKFxC4Bxh6OXI80rsqcvv9DN1HQCgrSfj ynhNTghmZNdtZE0/ebZAmkY= =qA8h -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 13:37, Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 13:22, Greg Meyer wrote: I think Buchan's point is that if one tries to start X and it fails, XFdrake should be launched automatically to try and help the user fix the problem. Uh, it is. Anyone who uses nvidia drivers knows this, as every time you install a new kernel they aren't found, X fails to start, and Mandrake pops up two nice prompts offering to start XFdrake and show you the logs. Are you using gdm? That would be the *non-default* display manager, and this doesn't work with kdm or mdkkdm, and probably not 'startx' either. Ah, right - yeah, I use gdm, I just figured the same would happen with other dms too. If it doesn't, that needs fixing, I guess. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:21, Rob a écrit : On Thursday 30 October 2003 08:11, Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... That's great for that one user, but now there's Mandrake 9.2 Discovery Edition aimed at people who don't even know what a command line is. Those are the people who need a safe mode by default when X can't run. The truth is, Mandrake isn't like Red Hat, and nothing against Red Hat users but I hope it never is. It's always been easier and saying the end user should have known... is almost always not helpful. Rob I agree totally on what you say : Mandrake is better than RH, especially for new users. BUT i'm saying that in this specific purpose, they must subscribe to the club or buy a pack where this kind of problems will be solved. This is part of the SERVICE Mandrake should gain money on, so my point is : 1 - you have some knowledge or want ot improve, so this it one issue you should be able to survive to, or 2 - you just don't want to have a look at what is happening, so you buy a powerpack to get the help, subscribe to the club, buy a preinstalled computer. Stef signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Thursday 30 October 2003 08:37 am, Buchan Milne wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 13:22, Greg Meyer wrote: I think Buchan's point is that if one tries to start X and it fails, XFdrake should be launched automatically to try and help the user fix the problem. Uh, it is. Anyone who uses nvidia drivers knows this, as every time you install a new kernel they aren't found, X fails to start, and Mandrake pops up two nice prompts offering to start XFdrake and show you the logs. Not on my box. When X doesn't start because the nvidia drivers are not yet installed on a new kernel, I get dumped to a console. -- /g Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read -Groucho Marx
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:41, Steffen Barszus a écrit : May be we should normalize definitively the Mandrake tools as drak* for example, but that's another point. We had that discussion allready ;) Yes but it is still not completely normalised, so as we're going to 9.3/10.0, it could be the good occasion for that. Back to the main point: I think Buchans idea isn't bad. If its only some comments of users thats missing i can give you a load of them. All sorts of things can fail, but if X fails to startup noobs are lost. I heard more then one time that people reinstall everything because X failed to start. Right. So i second Buchans idea I must agree with him also, at the end, you've convinced me, i was just trying to give the other side of the story, i'm bad ... Steffen Stef signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 13:11, Teletchéa Stéphane a écrit : Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 13:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : This kind of question should never need to be asked ... Regards, Buchan Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... I could agree if he had said : i tried drakXfree and didn't found it, but here, he didn't even try to figure out. May be we should normalize definitively the Mandrake tools as drak* for example, but that's another point. Both are wrong and right at the same time 1°/ a user should never have to ask this 2°/ XFdrake ( hard to type as you have to put 2 capital letters )should have a symlink to it named drakxfree 3°/ dm ( and so kdm/mdkkdm as gdm seems to do it right ) should launch XFdrake if X failed to start -- Les ruines d'une maison Se peuvent reparer : que n'est cet avantage Pour les ruines du visage ! -- Jean de La Fontaine, La Fille
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 13:49, Greg Meyer wrote: On Thursday 30 October 2003 08:37 am, Buchan Milne wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 13:22, Greg Meyer wrote: I think Buchan's point is that if one tries to start X and it fails, XFdrake should be launched automatically to try and help the user fix the problem. Uh, it is. Anyone who uses nvidia drivers knows this, as every time you install a new kernel they aren't found, X fails to start, and Mandrake pops up two nice prompts offering to start XFdrake and show you the logs. Not on my box. When X doesn't start because the nvidia drivers are not yet installed on a new kernel, I get dumped to a console. See Buchan's reply to me, I guess... -- adamw
drak*-tools (was: Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??)
Am Donnerstag, 30. Oktober 2003 14:53 schrieb Teletchéa Stéphane: Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:41, Steffen Barszus a écrit : May be we should normalize definitively the Mandrake tools as drak* for example, but that's another point. We had that discussion allready ;) Yes but it is still not completely normalised, so as we're going to 9.3/10.0, it could be the good occasion for that. I absolutly agree with you here. A drak[tab] should show all tools that are available. Beside that i think one of the most important things is to fix drakfirewall: [EMAIL PROTECTED] drakfirewall SCALAR(0x8b11308) [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 9.2 it silently dies without an visible error in the GUI. And yep i know i should run drakgw before drakfirewall, but that is a no go w/o a NIC ;). As this problem exists since 9.0 i think, i guess i shouldn't file it as bug on bugs.mandrake.com or should i ? See here: http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3572 I don't understand why this isn't fixed and what is so complicated to insert a question which device connects to the net. Yeah its another story again I know ;) Steffen
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 | Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:20, Buchan Milne a écrit : | |Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console |program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... | |And what if the user had never used Redhat before??? This guy has been |using Linux on hist desktop for over a year, do we expect newbies to |know more than this? I have better idea than to dump the newbie to XFdrake (that is finally a security risk, since the tool runs as root - i.e. you reboot, X fails, XFdrake runs, you are away from the machine and somebody screws your computer in the meantime). Why not put a message into /etc/issue saying to run XFdrake ? It will display on the console, so the newbie gets the idea to do it. It is trivial change and will fix the issue. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/oSehn11XseNj94gRAuxLAJwIFHe8GMvVkqowkdUDRW5pWuQmcgCfdcVA Bz9LVyX/HbJdlx1RUsy2nWw= =8n4E -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Thursday 30 October 2003 16:00, Jan Ciger wrote: | Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:20, Buchan Milne a écrit : |Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console |program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake | ... | |And what if the user had never used Redhat before??? This guy has | been using Linux on hist desktop for over a year, do we expect | newbies to know more than this? I have better idea than to dump the newbie to XFdrake (that is finally a security risk, since the tool runs as root - i.e. you reboot, X fails, XFdrake runs, you are away from the machine and somebody screws your computer in the meantime). and what about asking the root password before ? -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 | Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:20, Buchan Milne a écrit : | |Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console |program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... | |And what if the user had never used Redhat before??? This guy has been |using Linux on hist desktop for over a year, do we expect newbies to |know more than this? I have better idea than to dump the newbie to XFdrake (that is finally a security risk, since the tool runs as root - i.e. you reboot, X fails, XFdrake runs, you are away from the machine and somebody screws your computer in the meantime). you are right , isn't it possible to fallback to vesa/fb XFree driver at lower resolution, and then sugest running XFdrake to correct the setings and if XFdrake is to be run, ask for root passwd Why not put a message into /etc/issue saying to run XFdrake ? It will display on the console, so the newbie gets the idea to do it. It is trivial change and will fix the issue. IMO for most newbies this wont help much svetljo -- NEU FÜR ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - für Fotos, Musik, Dateien... Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gruß, GMX FotoService Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More! +++
Re: drak*-tools (was: Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??)
Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:28, Steffen Barszus a écrit : I absolutly agree with you here. A drak[tab] should show all tools that are available. On top of that, Rh did it for their tools ( all redhat-config prefixed if I remember well ) --- Combien de gens ne sont abstraits que pour paraitre profonds. -- Joseph Joubert, Pensees
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jan Ciger wrote: | Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 14:20, Buchan Milne a écrit : | |Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console |program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... | |And what if the user had never used Redhat before??? This guy has been |using Linux on hist desktop for over a year, do we expect newbies to |know more than this? I have better idea than to dump the newbie to XFdrake (that is finally a security risk, since the tool runs as root - i.e. you reboot, X fails, XFdrake runs, you are away from the machine and somebody screws your computer in the meantime). Who said it would be without password? It should be something along the lines of The X Window System failed to start, enter your root password to reconfigure the X Windows System. The only question, is who would be running this? (Svetjlo's idea is better though, better to have vesa X than newt console version of XFdrake). Why not put a message into /etc/issue saying to run XFdrake ? Do you mean /etc/motd? It will display on the console, so the newbie gets the idea to do it. It is trivial change and will fix the issue. sarcasm Why don't we have cron send the user email saying Please run this task now instead of running said task? It would be more secure than having cron run the tasks, as cron could run as an unpriveleged user ... /sarcasm IMHO, a better /etc/motd (last time I saw FreeBSD, it had some hints in /etc/motd) would be worthwhile, but mostly for console users (ie Permissions changing all the time? Configure msec using 'drakperm' (needs X) Missing software? Search with urpmq name, urpmf --description keyword or urpmf filename, install with urpmi package. Remember to update your packages by adding an updates urpmi medium and running 'urpmi.update update_source; urpmi --auto-select --media update_source'. Missing the tools you used during installation? Run 'drakconf' (console) For application-specific help, try 'man -K keyword' or check the documentation installed with a package by running 'rpm -qd package' To remove this message, run ' /etc/motd' Now, *that* would be useful. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/oSzlrJK6UGDSBKcRAjrHAKDHQA87bWuiIArBfN1723CKrq78LACeNVhY A4l3jnrKk5fE7oJSGmoF2Wk= =wR3L -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Tuesday 21 Oct 2003 7:42 pm, Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). I think the best option here would be to do something similar with the display drivers as is done with the resoultions - ie. specify 3 or 4 in XF86Config-4, and get X to try them in order. So for an nvidia card you could have... Driver nvidia nv vesa It would try the non-free driver first, then the 2D one, and fall back to vesa if neither are available. Obviously this would require a patch to X... David Sansome
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Tuesday 21 Oct 2003 7:42 pm, Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). I think the best option here would be to do something similar with the display drivers as is done with the resoultions - ie. specify 3 or 4 in XF86Config-4, and get X to try them in order. So for an nvidia card you could have... Driver nvidia nv vesa It would try the non-free driver first, then the 2D one, and fall back to vesa if neither are available. Obviously this would require a patch to X... IMO this doesn't look sane, doable, aceptable, but it shouldn't be that hard to define additional layout using vesa driver and lower resolution, and if X fails , try starting it with ..-layout safemode svetljo -- NEU FÜR ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - für Fotos, Musik, Dateien... Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gruß, GMX FotoService Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More! +++
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le jeu 30/10/2003 à 15:57, Svetoslav Slavtchev a écrit : On Tuesday 21 Oct 2003 7:42 pm, Buchan Milne wrote: Driver nvidia nv vesa It would try the non-free driver first, then the 2D one, and fall back to vesa if neither are available. Obviously this would require a patch to X... IMO this doesn't look sane, doable, aceptable, but it shouldn't be that hard to define additional layout using vesa driver and lower resolution, and if X fails , try starting it with ..-layout safemode The right solution is that if XFree failed it should try to use vesa drivers with a standard resolution ( 800x600 or 640x480 at least ) as you have will win9x failsafe mode. - Halte-la, mon grand. Cette barbe hirsute, ces bretelles, cet air hautain. Ne serais-tu pas l'un de ces condescendants utilisateurs d'Unix? - Tiens mon petit, je te file trois ronds. Va t'acheter une vraie becane.
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 08:22:05AM -0500, Greg Meyer wrote: On Thursday 30 October 2003 08:11 am, Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: This kind of question should never need to be asked ... Regards, Buchan Sorry to be against you Buchan, but as he knew there is a console program in RH, he should knew there is also one in Mdk aka XFdrake ... I think Buchan's point is that if one tries to start X and it fails, XFdrake should be launched automatically to try and help the user fix the problem. I think it is a good idea. I had the problem some weeks ago and could not find the right program. The xf86setup etc were not verey helpful to me as I needed to know what frequences my screen has, and I did not find that info easily. And I think that xfdrake was not installed by default:-( Keld
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Greg Meyer wrote: I think Buchan's point is that if one tries to start X and it fails, XFdrake should be launched automatically to try and help the user fix the problem. how about this in the init 3 scripts have one that pipes X start %datetime% or something to /var/log/Xmark then at some point during each of the WM load (when it does do so) remove the file (this signals that X did in fact start) Then in the init 1 scripts have a script check for Xmark and START XFdrake (perhaps with a message like Xwindows seems to have failed to start please press Y within # seconds to reconfigure Xwindows)
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le mar 21/10/2003 à 18:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. normally gdm support this and this is enable se in /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf : # if X keeps crashing on us we run this script. The default one does a bunch # of cool stuff to figure out what to tell the user and such and can # run an X configuration program. XKeepsCrashing=/etc/X11/gdm/XKeepsCrashing and in /etc/X11/gdm/XKeepsCrashing : # # First see if we can find an X configuration program # (first one in the list will be used) # XCONFIGURATOR= for n in \ /usr/bin/redhat-config-xfree86 \ /usr/sbin/XFdrake \ /usr/bin/X11/XF86Setup \ /usr/bin/X11/Xconfigurator \ /usr/bin/X11/xf86cfg \ ; do # standard shell test has no or and loops have no breaks, eek if test x$XCONFIGURATOR = x ; then if test -x $n ; then XCONFIGURATOR=$n fi fi done concerning kdm and mdkkdm ... don't know and can't find the config file in a logic place respecting LHS --- le seul probleme avec windows c'est que des fois le clavier se blo - #linuxfr
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le mar 21/10/2003 à 18:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. normally gdm support this and this is enable se in /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf : # if X keeps crashing on us we run this script. The default one does a bunch # of cool stuff to figure out what to tell the user and such and can # run an X configuration program. XKeepsCrashing=/etc/X11/gdm/XKeepsCrashing and in /etc/X11/gdm/XKeepsCrashing : # # First see if we can find an X configuration program # (first one in the list will be used) # XCONFIGURATOR= for n in \ /usr/bin/redhat-config-xfree86 \ /usr/sbin/XFdrake \ /usr/bin/X11/XF86Setup \ /usr/bin/X11/Xconfigurator \ /usr/bin/X11/xf86cfg \ ; do # standard shell test has no or and loops have no breaks, eek if test x$XCONFIGURATOR = x ; then if test -x $n ; then XCONFIGURATOR=$n fi fi done concerning kdm and mdkkdm ... don't know and can't find the config file in a logic place respecting LHS that's kde, whats strange ?-) no idea about mdk-kdm, kdm follows [EMAIL PROTECTED] seti]$ rpm -ql kdebase-kdm-config-file /usr/share/config/kdm /usr/share/config/kdm/README /usr/share/config/kdm/Xreset /usr/share/config/kdm/Xresources /usr/share/config/kdm/Xsetup /usr/share/config/kdm/Xstartup /usr/share/config/kdm/Xwilling /usr/share/config/kdm/backgroundrc /usr/share/config/kdm/kdmrc -- NEU FÜR ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - für Fotos, Musik, Dateien... Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gruß, GMX FotoService Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More! +++
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le mer 22/10/2003 à 11:00, Svetoslav Slavtchev a écrit : concerning kdm and mdkkdm ... don't know and can't find the config file in a logic place respecting LHS that's kde, whats strange ?-) no idea about mdk-kdm, kdm follows [EMAIL PROTECTED] seti]$ rpm -ql kdebase-kdm-config-file forgot this one, just try rpm -ql kdebase-kdm nothing interesting ... so kdm/mdkkdm limitation you'd rather use gdm ( on top of that it's beautiful ) --- Le droit bourgeois est la vaseline des enculeurs du peuple. Graffiti Anonyme 1968
[Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/lX34rJK6UGDSBKcRArGqAJ4hLI/D4GH3Ah89yw6O+U/vj1DV0gCeIvOC 7DMsXB84U8GYRBvn3q7svfg= =gJ27 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le Mardi 21 Octobre 2003 20:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. I know it's not the right place but: I can't find how to run windows in console mode or even failsafe. Do you known how to do? ;-)
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le Mardi 21 Octobre 2003 20:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. I know it's not the right place but: I can't find how to run windows in console mode Recovery console in Windows 2000 and Windows XP. But, there are very few times you actually need it, because you can ... or even failsafe. Hit F5 or F8 during boot (since Windows 98, maybe even Windows 95). On all versions of Windows since then, that will bring you up in VGA mode and load no drivers which aren't necessary. I have never seen a Windows system that will not get into safe mode. In Windows NT4, this is the VGA Mode boot option in the boot loader. Do you known how to do? The question is, can Mandrake also provide a solution for users who don't know all the console tools (whether MS has them or not is irrelevant, since you would never need them) can still recover from choosing the wrong display settings, or needing to choose a different display driver? Note, I don't say hardware configuration under Windows is the greatest (I have spent lots of time fighting hardware support in Windows, like about 2 hours of work to get it to work with the IDE controller on a different M/B when setting up hardware profiles for different machines on the same disk), but surely we can do at least as well in ensuring newbies don't end up with: localhost login: and believe the FUD about linux being too difficult for the average user to use. Regards, Buchan
Re: [Cooker] When can we finally get X to fall back to XFdrake??
Le Mercredi 22 Octobre 2003 00:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Le Mardi 21 Octobre 2003 20:42, Buchan Milne a écrit : A long time ago, X used to fall back to running a configuration tool. This may have been long ago, when XFdrake wstill had a link for XF86configure (or whatever Redhat used to call their tool). Why, if a user makes a mistake, do they end up with a console login, when they could have XFdrake instead to help them fix the problem? See the comments in the OSNews review to see why I am asking this again. Windows95 even had a safe mode which would help you reoconfigure your display settings. 8 years later, and Mandrake doesn't. I know it's not the right place but: I can't find how to run windows in console mode Recovery console in Windows 2000 and Windows XP. But, there are very few times you actually need it, because you can ... or even failsafe. Hit F5 or F8 during boot (since Windows 98, maybe even Windows 95). On all versions of Windows since then, that will bring you up in VGA mode and load no drivers which aren't necessary. I have never seen a Windows system that will not get into safe mode. In Windows NT4, this is the VGA Mode boot option in the boot loader. Do you known how to do? The question is, can Mandrake also provide a solution for users who don't know all the console tools (whether MS has them or not is irrelevant, since you would never need them) can still recover from choosing the wrong display settings, or needing to choose a different display driver? Note, I don't say hardware configuration under Windows is the greatest (I have spent lots of time fighting hardware support in Windows, like about 2 hours of work to get it to work with the IDE controller on a different M/B when setting up hardware profiles for different machines on the same disk), but surely we can do at least as well in ensuring newbies don't end up with: localhost login: and believe the FUD about linux being too difficult for the average user to use. Regards, Buchan Sorry for the joke (it was) ;) and thanks for the explanations... I fully agree with you.
