Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Learning the a corporate structures of other countries has been a steep learning curve, but this does make sense. You do have a lot of lobby groups, after all. :-P r. On 23 February 2010 01:32, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: Hi Rachel, This is great stuff, really! Thanks for all the effort. One point of note on your non-profit con about political lobbying, at least in the USA, if an organization elects 501(h) instead of 501(c)(3) then they can lobby. Generally, organizations that make the 501(h) election under the 1976 lobbying law may spend 20% of the first $500,000 of their annual expenditures on lobbying ($100,000), 15% of the next $500,000, and so on, up to $1 million dollars. http://www.muridae.com/nporegulation/lobbying.html#lobbying_who_may http://www.asaecenter.com/PublicationsResources/whitepaperdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=12202 -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. I've recently looked into this issue for another non-profit I'm setting up. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Reminder that 501c3 or whatever non-profit status ironically costs about $20k after filing and legal fees (there is a helluvalotta paperwork) and requires gobs of administrative work and reporting going forward, meaning you need to hire people for money to do that for you as it's awfully complicated. I watched Freecycle go through this painful process and they really regret it. T On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:19 AM, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca wrote: Ah, thanks for the clarification. Learning the a corporate structures of other countries has been a steep learning curve, but this does make sense. You do have a lot of lobby groups, after all. :-P r. On 23 February 2010 01:32, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: Hi Rachel, This is great stuff, really! Thanks for all the effort. One point of note on your non-profit con about political lobbying, at least in the USA, if an organization elects 501(h) instead of 501(c)(3) then they can lobby. Generally, organizations that make the 501(h) election under the 1976 lobbying law may spend 20% of the first $500,000 of their annual expenditures on lobbying ($100,000), 15% of the next $500,000, and so on, up to $1 million dollars. http://www.muridae.com/nporegulation/lobbying.html#lobbying_who_may http://www.asaecenter.com/PublicationsResources/whitepaperdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=12202 -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. I've recently looked into this issue for another non-profit I'm setting up. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- tara 'missrogue' hunt Book: The Whuffie Factor (http://www.thewhuffiefactor.com) Blog: HorsePigCow: Marketing Uncommon (http://horsepigcow.com) Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/missrogue phone: 514-679-2951 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
$20k? Wow. That shows just how different corporations can be in different countries. In Canada it is about $500 for incoprporation (depending on which province it originates in) plus legal fees, so maybe $2500 tops, depending on the lawyer. Administrative operations is separate, of course, depending on how the organisation wants to handle it. I sit on the board of a non-profit and while we do have one paid staff, the board chips in to do some work and a few volunteers also contribute. r. On 23 February 2010 08:54, Tara Hunt horsepig...@gmail.com wrote: Reminder that 501c3 or whatever non-profit status ironically costs about $20k after filing and legal fees (there is a helluvalotta paperwork) and requires gobs of administrative work and reporting going forward, meaning you need to hire people for money to do that for you as it's awfully complicated. I watched Freecycle go through this painful process and they really regret it. T On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:19 AM, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.cawrote: Ah, thanks for the clarification. Learning the a corporate structures of other countries has been a steep learning curve, but this does make sense. You do have a lot of lobby groups, after all. :-P r. On 23 February 2010 01:32, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: Hi Rachel, This is great stuff, really! Thanks for all the effort. One point of note on your non-profit con about political lobbying, at least in the USA, if an organization elects 501(h) instead of 501(c)(3) then they can lobby. Generally, organizations that make the 501(h) election under the 1976 lobbying law may spend 20% of the first $500,000 of their annual expenditures on lobbying ($100,000), 15% of the next $500,000, and so on, up to $1 million dollars. http://www.muridae.com/nporegulation/lobbying.html#lobbying_who_may http://www.asaecenter.com/PublicationsResources/whitepaperdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=12202 -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. I've recently looked into this issue for another non-profit I'm setting up. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- tara 'missrogue' hunt Book: The Whuffie Factor (http://www.thewhuffiefactor.com) Blog: HorsePigCow: Marketing Uncommon (http://horsepigcow.com) Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/missrogue phone: 514-679-2951 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca (416) 801-0196 Find us in person: Camaraderie 102 Adelaide St 2nd Floor Toronto, ONM5C 1K9 Find us online: website and blog: camaraderie.ca twitter: @camaraderie sprouter: @ruyoung -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Heath, I concur with Rachel. Offer criticism yes, but please accompany with alternative solutions? FWIW if an entity is formed is it only defined in the terms of the law and taxation. A corporation is a only legal and tax entity, after all; beyond that it has no meaning. Even Private International Law isn't a jurisdiction itself but concerns dispute resolution across jurisdictions[1]. So as far as I know you have to follow the laws of some country and ideally compatible laws of many other countries but ultimately it has to be based somewhere. Where as an alternate would you suggest, and why? -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law#Conflict_of_laws On Feb 23, 2010, at 7:17 AM, rachel young wrote: Actually no, these are not ALL USA stuff, these are both valid in Canada as well (I'm Canadian, coworking facility based in Canada, and have worked with and set up both co-ops and non-profits in Canada). I cannot find anything online that would support legal entity that is an international association that would offer memberships and tax exemptions for all countries. All associations start somewhere, in some country, and that country deals with the laws and taxations assocated with the type of organisation, therefore can get whatever applied tax exemptions. If you can find something, I suggest you post it to the group as an option. What other suggestions do you have? It is fine to speak your mind, but can you offer another option that you think might serve the community better? r. On 23 February 2010 03:47, Steven Heath she...@gmail.com wrote: My one comment and it is a major one is this is ALL USA stuff. While are we looking at USA laws? As I have said before I would rather no legal entity then one based on USA laws. Also when you say things like 'tax exemption(s)' you mean for USA tax payers. Thank god I am not and never will be one. Last time I checked this is a world wide movement that happened to start in USA. This may sound like a rant because it kinda is. If other non North American people can speak up it will be great, otherwise I will just fade back as a lurker on this pet peeve of mine. Steven Heath PS I lived for 9 years in Canada, married a Canadian and both my kids were born in Canada so I do have some perspective and 'experience' of the Norther American vs 'the rest' views. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On Feb 23, 2010, at 7:19 AM, rachel young wrote: You do have a lot of lobby groups, after all. :-P Yes. About 2 orders of magnitude more than we should! ;-) -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Before looking at entity I think we need to go back to what Alex (and others have said). Why are we doing this? For instance we are putting the cart before the horse. And it is not like I have not spoken similar words before. The 5 why's come to mind about what we are doing. One thing in the possible approach is about tax exemption and possible charitable status. If lots of people in USA and Canada thinks this is a good idea AND required then ok. But then realised that this has NO benefit outside of these two countries. I still think we need to address what our requirements are. Some of these may come out of the discussion at SXSW. This is one of many F2F and online flora we can use to start to nut out the requirements (or strawman, or whatever). I would like to add that the get together at SXSW should be one of the many places to discuss... not the place. PS I have my views, I am one of many and I think we need more discussion before moving on any framework on how to implement it. Take care -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
I'm just going to past Tony's email that begun this thread here because, well, this is getting out of hand: Hey all. Serious stuff here. Let's take a step back for a second. I believe we are in a dangerous place right now, because money is involved, and everybody is going to have an opinion on how it should be distributed, who should be involved, who has what percent control over what, etc etc etc. The thing that makes this coworking movement so nice is that it's a decentralized starfish organization with no leadership structure, hierarchy, or bureaucracy. The coworking concept is one which we all subscribe to, and that concept lives outside of any formal entity. This group, the wiki, and the blog were carefully crafted with the idea in mind that they facilitate communication amongst a body of people who subscribe to this concept. We're going to have to work on making this thing as fair as possible, but I strongly, strongly, STRONGLY advise that we do NOT try to go in ANY direction which takes us down a path of centralization, raising more money, or hierarchy. This domain purchase was done to secure our word and our movement against co-opting from an external interest, and that's it. The site should be super simple, continue to facilitate conversation and information sharing in an open, decentralized way, and nothing more. If those things are to exist, they should exist outside of the coworking.com discussion, when we're able to think about it for more than a couple of days. I gave my money to Alex with clear terms that he set, and I trust him to use those funds to act in the best interests of the movement, and that's it. I don't want a vote, I don't want a board seat. That being said, we just witnessed how much power we collectively have to pool together our resources and accomplish something. If a group of people wants to form an organization that does similar such things, like conferences and software and whatever else, that sounds like a really cool thing to work on. But it should be separate from this domain discussion. The terms Alex suggested are imperfect, and will have to be improved to better facilitate the participation of everyone who believes in what coworking is all about. But injecting structure and hierarchy will do a lot more bad than good. The same way the current blog/wiki/group sites are managed in the background by people who have the best interests of the movement at heart, so too should this domain be managed in a lightweight, nonbureaucratic, and effective manner. Love you guys. Let's keep coworking the beautiful starfish that it is. Tony - New Work City - Work with, not for. Web: http://nwcny.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/nwc Email: t...@nwcny.com Phone: (888) 823-3494 On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Tara Hunt horsepig...@gmail.com wrote: Reminder that 501c3 or whatever non-profit status ironically costs about $20k after filing and legal fees (there is a helluvalotta paperwork) and requires gobs of administrative work and reporting going forward, meaning you need to hire people for money to do that for you as it's awfully complicated. I watched Freecycle go through this painful process and they really regret it. T On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:19 AM, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.cawrote: Ah, thanks for the clarification. Learning the a corporate structures of other countries has been a steep learning curve, but this does make sense. You do have a lot of lobby groups, after all. :-P r. On 23 February 2010 01:32, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: Hi Rachel, This is great stuff, really! Thanks for all the effort. One point of note on your non-profit con about political lobbying, at least in the USA, if an organization elects 501(h) instead of 501(c)(3) then they can lobby. Generally, organizations that make the 501(h) election under the 1976 lobbying law may spend 20% of the first $500,000 of their annual expenditures on lobbying ($100,000), 15% of the next $500,000, and so on, up to $1 million dollars. http://www.muridae.com/nporegulation/lobbying.html#lobbying_who_may http://www.asaecenter.com/PublicationsResources/whitepaperdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=12202 -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. I've recently looked into this issue for another non-profit I'm setting up. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- tara 'missrogue' hunt Book: The Whuffie Factor (http://www.thewhuffiefactor.com) Blog: HorsePigCow: Marketing Uncommon
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Reminder that 501c3 or whatever non-profit status ironically costs about $20k after filing and legal fees (there is a helluvalotta paperwork) Unless you get legal done pro-bono and then it's much cheaper, which is likely. and requires gobs of administrative work and reporting going forward, meaning you need to hire people for money to do that for you as it's awfully complicated. This, of course, is harder to get around. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com On Feb 23, 2010, at 8:54 AM, Tara Hunt wrote: Reminder that 501c3 or whatever non-profit status ironically costs about $20k after filing and legal fees (there is a helluvalotta paperwork) and requires gobs of administrative work and reporting going forward, meaning you need to hire people for money to do that for you as it's awfully complicated. I watched Freecycle go through this painful process and they really regret it. T On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:19 AM, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca wrote: Ah, thanks for the clarification. Learning the a corporate structures of other countries has been a steep learning curve, but this does make sense. You do have a lot of lobby groups, after all. :-P r. On 23 February 2010 01:32, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.net wrote: Hi Rachel, This is great stuff, really! Thanks for all the effort. One point of note on your non-profit con about political lobbying, at least in the USA, if an organization elects 501(h) instead of 501(c)(3) then they can lobby. Generally, organizations that make the 501(h) election under the 1976 lobbying law may spend 20% of the first $500,000 of their annual expenditures on lobbying ($100,000), 15% of the next $500,000, and so on, up to $1 million dollars. http://www.muridae.com/nporegulation/lobbying.html#lobbying_who_may http://www.asaecenter.com/PublicationsResources/whitepaperdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=12202 -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. I've recently looked into this issue for another non-profit I'm setting up. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- tara 'missrogue' hunt Book: The Whuffie Factor (http://www.thewhuffiefactor.com) Blog: HorsePigCow: Marketing Uncommon (http://horsepigcow.com) Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/missrogue phone: 514-679-2951 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Steven Heath wrote: Before looking at entity I think we need to go back to what Alex (and others have said). Why are we doing this? Rachel was doing research in parallel. That way we can know what the options are when we discuss the why. One thing in the possible approach is about tax exemption and possible charitable status. If lots of people in USA and Canada thinks this is a good idea AND required then ok. But then realised that this has NO benefit outside of these two countries. Are there no non-profit entities outside USA and Canada? I ask not to advocate for non-profit but just to better understand international issues. I still think we need to address what our requirements are. Yes, but I think that goes without saying. Deciding requirements does not have to be a critical path before researching structural options. BTW, another option is to set up an LLC as effectively a not-for-profit entity and to establish bylaws that require it to be managed as we collectively like, regardless of specific org type. The bylaws could establish what it does and how it is allowed to operate. The bylaws could establish voting rules, and how members of many countries participate. The ownership of the entity could be held in trust[1] by a law firm and then everyone that participates could become a type of member as defined by the bylaws. We don't get tax benefits from this approach but it we distribute any potential profits to members then there is no need for tax benefits. We wouldn't get preferred status from orgs that give cheap/free things to non-profits but then we wouldn't have the issues of forming/running a non-profit either. As for the requirements, minimally I think there's a need for an org to house and run coworking.com and to establish a way for people to understand what coworking is and what it is not just as the open source group did for open source (I would have said define it but didn't since some of your reacted so negatively to that term.) I would like to add that the get together at SXSW should be one of the many places to discuss... not the place. I agree, since I won't be at SXSW. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(law) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
As for the requirements, minimally I think there's a need for an org to house and run coworking.com and to establish a way for people to understand what coworking is and what it is not just as the open source group did for open source (I would have said define it but didn't since some of your reacted so negatively to that term.) I still have not been convinced as to why an org is needed to help people understand what coworking is (and isn't). /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Steven Heath wrote: Before looking at entity I think we need to go back to what Alex (and others have said). Why are we doing this? Rachel was doing research in parallel. That way we can know what the options are when we discuss the why. One thing in the possible approach is about tax exemption and possible charitable status. If lots of people in USA and Canada thinks this is a good idea AND required then ok. But then realised that this has NO benefit outside of these two countries. Are there no non-profit entities outside USA and Canada? I ask not to advocate for non-profit but just to better understand international issues. I still think we need to address what our requirements are. Yes, but I think that goes without saying. Deciding requirements does not have to be a critical path before researching structural options. BTW, another option is to set up an LLC as effectively a not-for-profit entity and to establish bylaws that require it to be managed as we collectively like, regardless of specific org type. The bylaws could establish what it does and how it is allowed to operate. The bylaws could establish voting rules, and how members of many countries participate. The ownership of the entity could be held in trust[1] by a law firm and then everyone that participates could become a type of member as defined by the bylaws. We don't get tax benefits from this approach but it we distribute any potential profits to members then there is no need for tax benefits. We wouldn't get preferred status from orgs that give cheap/free things to non-profits but then we wouldn't have the issues of forming/running a non-profit either. As for the requirements, minimally I think there's a need for an org to house and run coworking.com and to establish a way for people to understand what coworking is and what it is not just as the open source group did for open source (I would have said define it but didn't since some of your reacted so negatively to that term.) I would like to add that the get together at SXSW should be one of the many places to discuss... not the place. I agree, since I won't be at SXSW. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(law) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
To continue my point, IndyHall existed as a non-entity (just a word, and a bunch of people spreading ideas) for a long time before we created any kind of legal entity, and that was because a commercial lease needed to be signed. There have been no commercial requirements to pull off anything (including the acquisition of a domain), and definitely not for spreading of ideas. In fact, the controlling nature of any singular entity (no matter how altruistic) would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from. Long term, an entity with higher purpose can and will likely emerge, but I still believe that we're forcing something that doesn't need to exist just because it's what everybody else would do in this situation. I have not seen any case as to why this *should* be other than the fact that it *can* be. -Alex /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Alex Hillman dangerouslyawes...@gmail.comwrote: As for the requirements, minimally I think there's a need for an org to house and run coworking.com and to establish a way for people to understand what coworking is and what it is not just as the open source group did for open source (I would have said define it but didn't since some of your reacted so negatively to that term.) I still have not been convinced as to why an org is needed to help people understand what coworking is (and isn't). /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.net wrote: On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Steven Heath wrote: Before looking at entity I think we need to go back to what Alex (and others have said). Why are we doing this? Rachel was doing research in parallel. That way we can know what the options are when we discuss the why. One thing in the possible approach is about tax exemption and possible charitable status. If lots of people in USA and Canada thinks this is a good idea AND required then ok. But then realised that this has NO benefit outside of these two countries. Are there no non-profit entities outside USA and Canada? I ask not to advocate for non-profit but just to better understand international issues. I still think we need to address what our requirements are. Yes, but I think that goes without saying. Deciding requirements does not have to be a critical path before researching structural options. BTW, another option is to set up an LLC as effectively a not-for-profit entity and to establish bylaws that require it to be managed as we collectively like, regardless of specific org type. The bylaws could establish what it does and how it is allowed to operate. The bylaws could establish voting rules, and how members of many countries participate. The ownership of the entity could be held in trust[1] by a law firm and then everyone that participates could become a type of member as defined by the bylaws. We don't get tax benefits from this approach but it we distribute any potential profits to members then there is no need for tax benefits. We wouldn't get preferred status from orgs that give cheap/free things to non-profits but then we wouldn't have the issues of forming/running a non-profit either. As for the requirements, minimally I think there's a need for an org to house and run coworking.com and to establish a way for people to understand what coworking is and what it is not just as the open source group did for open source (I would have said define it but didn't since some of your reacted so negatively to that term.) I would like to add that the get together at SXSW should be one of the many places to discuss... not the place. I agree, since I won't be at SXSW. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(law) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Thanks, Rachel for putting together a way to collect input from the community. Could you share or open the results to all so we could see what our colleagues' responses look like thus far? I'm very interested to see what the results are looking like as we proceed.. Thanks again, all. This is really interesting stuff, and I think is an enriching conversation for us to have right now. FWIW, I am very strongly of the opinion that an organized entity representing coworking is not needed at this juncture. I see it as much too big a risk for our community to take at this point in our collective history. Best, Susan __ Office Nomads officenomads.com 206-484-5859 On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 8:47 PM, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca wrote: Hi all, On 16 February 2010 13:40, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca wrote: I am volunteering to look into what an international co-op or association could be, and I'll report back pros and cons to the group in a few days. (or maybe by Mon, given what my weekend already looks like) r. If you don't want to read all of this info, please scroll to the end to find a link to a very simple survey. There has been both support in favour of and warnings against forming some sort of organisation. So, as promised, here is a high level comparison of the different types of formal organisations we *could* form - this info is not to sway your opinion for or against such an organisation, but merely to help inform you of some options. Since there is money involved (now with the acquisition of coworking.com, and potentially in future for conferences or even other currently unknown opportunities similar to the domain acquisition) I do recommend that if we decide we want some sort of organisation then it should be a formal legal entity. In keeping with the wish that this not be to any one person's benefit, the only two real options would be a co-op or a non-profit. *Co-operative* A co-op is an autonomous association of persons (or companies with one representative) united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise which is incorporated. PROS - one share, one vote - all members are owners, all members share in the profits through dividends CONS - a fair amount of red tape for the initial set up and distribution of dividends - all members essentially run the company, unless staff are hired (many of us run our own company in addition to running the business of our coworking spaces, so this would be a third company) - it is grammatically correct to include a hyphen in co-op or co-operative and aesthetically that would look weird with coworking (this is not a real point either way, just inserting some rib-jabbing levity in between corporate mumbo jumbo) *Non-profit Corporation * Forming a nonprofit corporation is much like creating a regular corporation, except that nonprofits have to take the extra steps of applying for tax-exempt status. Also called a 501(c)(3) in the USA. PROS - tax exemption(s) - greater qualification for grants - business activities cannot result in personal benefit for any director, officer, or member, which helps in keeping this community as great as it is CONS - cannot participate in political lobbying (influencing legislation) as a substantial part of its total activities (if ever we want to band together to show support in affecting legislation in any country) - there may be some restrictions on the use of assets to purposes justifying tax exemption Does anyone know of another form of legal organisational entity that would be a possible fit for our community? Basically, from what I could find, it would take forming an organisation in one country and then crafting the bylaws to include international members. All forms would essentially be governance, meaning that there would be one body to make decisions for the betterment of all members or interested parties, whether that body is composed of one representative from each coworking space for a co-op or a smaller board of representatives for a non-profit organisation. Either way, the structure would include variations of these steps: 1. Choose a Business Name 2. Prepare and File Articles of Incorporation 3. Apply for Applicable Tax Exemption(s) 4. Draft Corporate Bylaws 5. Appoint Directors 6. Hold a Directors' Meeting (attendees can be virtual in most cases) 7. Obtain Applicable Licenses and Permits * Survey* And with that, I think it is time for a straightforward surveyhttp://bit.ly/928jRPon international governance. It's time to collect brief answers to decide if we move forward, and then if yes then how to move forward. The survey is anonymous, but please decide amongst yourselves in your coworking space and answer
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
To continue my point, IndyHall existed as a non-entity (just a word, and a bunch of people spreading ideas) for a long time before we created any kind of legal entity, and that was because a commercial lease needed to be signed. There have been no commercial requirements to pull off anything (including the acquisition of a domain), and definitely not for spreading of ideas. Minimally an entity needs to exist to own the domain. Most likely it could be an endowed trust that has funds to pay for perpetual hosting. That way if you die or if you get sued to bankruptcy for whatever reason we don't loose the domain. Unless I miss my guess the domain is currently tied to you as a legal entity. If not, please explain how the community is protected in either of those two awful cases? In fact, the controlling nature of any singular entity (no matter how altruistic) would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from. I'm not being sarcastic but reading that perspective from you and others I can't stop the premise of Green Eggs and Ham from running through my mind. It feels like rather than discuss what it might be and what value it might have that some are just reacting out of fear and thus are closing themselves off from even considering that there may be some value. Please don't take offense, I'm just explaining how it seems to me. As proposed the entity would only do those things we agreed to allow it to do. If there are things it would do that would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from then we explicitly disallow those things in the bylaws without a supermajority or unanimous vote of members. One thing that *is* needed, and I'll stand firmly on this, is something we can point people to who want to understand what coworking is but who are not true believers like most on this list. For example, the media. Having the media right stories about coworking ends up having them define it for us whether we like it or not. I'd far rather we are in control of that definition and not others who couldn't be bothered to get it right. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. We can define it using principles and by giving examples, it doesn't have to be a single sentence. But it we do not define it others will. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Here is an idea: Years ago, Chris Messina (once again) had a post he put up about community marks: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/14/the-case-for-community-marks/ Rather than fitting ourselves uncomfortably into the current system (that doesn't suit what we want to do), why don't we put our force behind creating a new precedent? I spoke with a guy named Louis Villa (http://tieguy.org/) who had worked with Lawrence Lessig on the Creative Commons project years ago. I know he was quite interested in this idea (I showed him Chris' post). I won't get behind some org structure that we don't fit into, but I would happily get behind setting a new precedent (would work for many projects that have disparate stakeholders). T On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: To continue my point, IndyHall existed as a non-entity (just a word, and a bunch of people spreading ideas) for a long time before we created any kind of legal entity, and that was because a commercial lease needed to be signed. There have been no commercial requirements to pull off anything (including the acquisition of a domain), and definitely not for spreading of ideas. Minimally an entity needs to exist to own the domain. Most likely it could be an endowed trust that has funds to pay for perpetual hosting. That way if you die or if you get sued to bankruptcy for whatever reason we don't loose the domain. Unless I miss my guess the domain is currently tied to you as a legal entity. If not, please explain how the community is protected in either of those two awful cases? In fact, the controlling nature of any singular entity (no matter how altruistic) would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from. I'm not being sarcastic but reading that perspective from you and others I can't stop the premise of Green Eggs and Ham from running through my mind. It feels like rather than discuss what it might be and what value it might have that some are just reacting out of fear and thus are closing themselves off from even considering that there may be some value. Please don't take offense, I'm just explaining how it seems to me. As proposed the entity would only do those things we agreed to allow it to do. If there are things it would do that would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from then we explicitly disallow those things in the bylaws without a supermajority or unanimous vote of members. One thing that *is* needed, and I'll stand firmly on this, is something we can point people to who want to understand what coworking is but who are not true believers like most on this list. For example, the media. Having the media right stories about coworking ends up having them define it for us whether we like it or not. I'd far rather we are in control of that definition and not others who couldn't be bothered to get it right. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. We can define it using principles and by giving examples, it doesn't have to be a single sentence. But it we do not define it others will. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- tara 'missrogue' hunt Book: The Whuffie Factor (http://www.thewhuffiefactor.com) Blog: HorsePigCow: Marketing Uncommon (http://horsepigcow.com) Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/missrogue phone: 514-679-2951 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
One thing that *is* needed, and I'll stand firmly on this, is something we can point people to who want to understand what coworking is but who are not true believers like most on this list. For example, the media. Having the media right stories about coworking ends up having them define it for us whether we like it or not. I'd far rather we are in control of that definition and not others who couldn't be bothered to get it right. I think everyone agrees with this comment. I think that was in fact one of the reasons for securing the name. The content on the site is unrelated to the entity that owns/controls the name. With regard to the issues about 'if worst happens' I will research the current state of Alex holding it 'in trust' without a written trust deed being in place. I know in most common law based countries this is defensible but will check with the USA perspective. I will post back to the list my findings. Take care -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Perhaps as a corporate structure, you are looking for the LLLC. Or the L3C - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L3C It gives the chance to do projects, be flexible, and yet still take funds from foundations. Another possibility is to look at this discussion as the beginnings of the Coworking Trade Association, IE, the collection of all entities who are engaged in and who want to perpetuate and support and enhance coworking. That Trade Association type this is one of the different 501cX types, I forget if it is a 501c4 or a 501c6 In any case, realatively easy to set up, the only limitation is on writing off donations. If you don't care about that, then the cost of forming the entity goes way down. L3C's are new enough that they are not in every state. On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Tara Hunt horsepig...@gmail.com wrote: Here is an idea: Years ago, Chris Messina (once again) had a post he put up about community marks: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/14/the-case-for-community-marks/ Rather than fitting ourselves uncomfortably into the current system (that doesn't suit what we want to do), why don't we put our force behind creating a new precedent? I spoke with a guy named Louis Villa (http://tieguy.org/) who had worked with Lawrence Lessig on the Creative Commons project years ago. I know he was quite interested in this idea (I showed him Chris' post). I won't get behind some org structure that we don't fit into, but I would happily get behind setting a new precedent (would work for many projects that have disparate stakeholders). T On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.net wrote: To continue my point, IndyHall existed as a non-entity (just a word, and a bunch of people spreading ideas) for a long time before we created any kind of legal entity, and that was because a commercial lease needed to be signed. There have been no commercial requirements to pull off anything (including the acquisition of a domain), and definitely not for spreading of ideas. Minimally an entity needs to exist to own the domain. Most likely it could be an endowed trust that has funds to pay for perpetual hosting. That way if you die or if you get sued to bankruptcy for whatever reason we don't loose the domain. Unless I miss my guess the domain is currently tied to you as a legal entity. If not, please explain how the community is protected in either of those two awful cases? In fact, the controlling nature of any singular entity (no matter how altruistic) would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from. I'm not being sarcastic but reading that perspective from you and others I can't stop the premise of Green Eggs and Ham from running through my mind. It feels like rather than discuss what it might be and what value it might have that some are just reacting out of fear and thus are closing themselves off from even considering that there may be some value. Please don't take offense, I'm just explaining how it seems to me. As proposed the entity would only do those things we agreed to allow it to do. If there are things it would do that would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from then we explicitly disallow those things in the bylaws without a supermajority or unanimous vote of members. One thing that *is* needed, and I'll stand firmly on this, is something we can point people to who want to understand what coworking is but who are not true believers like most on this list. For example, the media. Having the media right stories about coworking ends up having them define it for us whether we like it or not. I'd far rather we are in control of that definition and not others who couldn't be bothered to get it right. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. We can define it using principles and by giving examples, it doesn't have to be a single sentence. But it we do not define it others will. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- tara 'missrogue' hunt Book: The Whuffie Factor (http://www.thewhuffiefactor.com) Blog: HorsePigCow: Marketing Uncommon (http://horsepigcow.com) Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/missrogue phone: 514-679-2951 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
I was merely going off of experience with chatting with another organization: Freecycle whose bills were estimated to be about $5k and ended up being more like $20k. Not to mention my own immigration experience where a $50.00 TN1 Visa quickly turned into a $10,000.00 TN1 visa because of complications...ah the complications of the law and the government. And let me tell you that the $20k happened because Freecycle, much like Coworking, was a small pieces loosely joined starfishy like group of local freecycles who all wanted to get involved in the 501c3 process to make sure it was fair to all (various countries, locals, etc.). I'm pretty sure we have the same issue (unless we trust one person - Alex? - to do all the work on this, which leads me to the question - why create an organization at all and, instead, just trust that same person to hold the coworking.com site and hosting?). T On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Anthony Sorace a...@9srv.net wrote: I've been lurking on the list for a while, and have been following all the entity threads with fascination. I think the combination of initiative and questioning is great; I wish the other place I'm dealing with similar issues had a balance more like this. A little bit ago, Tara said: Reminder that 501c3 or whatever non-profit status ironically costs about $20k after filing and legal fees... I'm a bit skeptical about this. I happen to be working on forming a US non-profit for something totally unrelated, and this is dramatically higher than anything I've seen. Estimates for having a full-service legal shop do everything from drafting by-laws through 501c3 certification (which isn't the same as simply forming the non-profit) seem to be around $5,000. The exact fees vary state by state, but all the actual government fees combined should still be well under $1,000, at least until your gross receipts exceed $10,000 (and then they go up only a few hundred, at least until the fee structure changes (for the better) some time later this year). Could that $20k include administrative staff or ongoing costs? There's also an obvious trade-off between time and money here: you can pay money to have someone with experience do things much faster. Anthony Sorace Strand 1 -- tara 'missrogue' hunt Book: The Whuffie Factor (http://www.thewhuffiefactor.com) Blog: HorsePigCow: Marketing Uncommon (http://horsepigcow.com) Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/missrogue phone: 514-679-2951 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Tara Hunt horsepig...@gmail.com wrote: I'm pretty sure we have the same issue (unless we trust one person - Alex? - to do all the work on this, which leads me to the question - why create an organization at all and, instead, just trust that same person to hold the coworking.com site and hosting?). The typical response to this is: the Proverbial Beer Truck. What happens when that person gets sick, dies, turns evil or otherwise stops being the useful centerpoint? The Secon typical response is: Why not take the opportunity to grow the strength and capabilities of the relationships and find ways to build an amplifier that is bigger than one person? -- John Sechrest . Corvallis Benton. Chamber Coalition . 420 NW 2nd . (541) 757-1507 . sechr...@corvallisedp.com . . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On Feb 23, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Alex Hillman wrote: On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Tara Hunt horsepig...@gmail.com wrote: I won't get behind some org structure that we don't fit into, but I would happily get behind setting a new precedent (would work for many projects that have disparate stakeholders). AMEN Finally! I just wish I had the same ability to get across a concept to this group that Tara has. :) To revisit, I've not been proposing an org structure that doesn't fit, I was proposing finding a structure that does. On Feb 23, 2010, at 5:05 PM, Eli Malinsky wrote: For what it's worth, our org has developed a Constellation Model of Governance (http://socialinnovation.ca/blog/constellation-model-of- collaborative-social-change) that has allowed a number of groups, big and small, to work together without incorporating. Clearly, your collective has never been sued. :-) Fred Wilson from Union Square Ventures in NYC just published a great post on Corporate Entities where he covers liability protection as a reason for why you form an entity: http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2010/02/corporate-entity.html I know that Alex has offered to hold and protect the domain and Tara and others have championed the no entity approach but let me just draw out an unfortunate scenario for you, one that doesn't assume Alex will turn die (we really hope not) or that he'll turn evil (we truly think that is unlikely): We collectively work on this new domain coworking.com and selflessly contribute. Coworking thrives to orders of magnitude what it is today, and all is good. No entity was created and none has been needed. A few years go by and Big Evil Corp (BEC) sees opportunity cost lost to these feisty yet undefinable coworking operators and they comes along and ask Alex to be included on coworking.com. Alex tells us all and we all immediately know intuitively that BEC doesn't get coworking, its offerings are not coworking nor do we realistically expect that BEC ever will get coworking. So we all almost unanimously vote against their inclusion with the exception of someone on the list who happens to be the nephew of BEC's CEO. And all continues to be good. Except, 6 weeks later a process server shows up at IndyHall and serves Alex with a lawsuit for restraint of trade and a variety of other sordid and sundry things which none of us not in the legal profession understand. Alex goes to his personal lawyer and pays $250 out of his pocket for advice and his attorney tells Alex they have absolutely no case and offers to try to get the case throw out as a frivolous suit for an additional $1000 in fees which Alex gladly pays out of his pocket. Another 6 weeks goes by and Alex finally learns from his lawyer that the judge won't dismiss the case, but that the lawyer will gladly defend Alex if Alex pays $5000 for a retainer. Alex comes to the list and 10 of us we gladly offer up $500 each to defend Alex against BEC. Feeling triumphant Alex waits another 3 months for court. Court begins and BEC's lawyers throw Alex's lawyer a curve ball. BEC's legal has been working for the past three months and has generated over 1000 pages of supporting documents based on comments on this list and more. Alex's lawyer informs Alex that it will now cost $25,000 more to defend because of the need for discovery and deposing witnesses, travel cost, etc. Dejected Alex pleads to the list again and is able to gather another $1000 from each of those 10 original donors but he's still $15k short. So Alex being the incredibly principled man he is decides to pull $15k more out of his own pocket and fight these bastards at BEC. He spends the next 3 months mostly focused on the trial and lets his business operations falter. But it's the right thing to do for the cause. Court date is finally here. Alex and his lawyer are prepared and they are going to nail BEC to the wall on this day. However BEC is prepared and has uncovered more evidence of discussions on the list in the past 3 months and they add it as evidence to their case. Alex's lawyer sheepishly says Alex, I'm really sorry but we're going to need another $25k... Unfortunately, Alex is financially tapped out at this point and his lack of focus on his businesses during the trial has him at the edge of personal bankruptcy. He heads to this list for more funds but nobody offers up any. A few even accuse him of misappropriating funds. Alex's life is in a tailspin. Alex's lawyer calls and says that BEC's CEO Will Swindle wants to talk. Without any other visible option Alex talks with Swindle. Swindle tells Alex that he understands Alex's predicament and hates to see such good man be destroyed by something like this. Swindle tells Alex that he's sorry it's gone this way for Alex but that he has shareholders to answer to and they demand that be pursue what's in their interest. Swindle tells Alex and he does have an option
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Implausible? Only if you've never been a party to a lawsuit. It's disgusting what happens when someone who has plenty of money and lawyers on staff can to do those who don't have an infinite war chest to defend, even against frivolous lawsuit, at least in the USA. Thank you for you very long message about possible risk for an American based entity and outlines in detail some of my reasons for 'anything but a USA based entity'. -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
I like the idea of a new mark. I have been speaking about the need for that and a community mark makes sense to me. Geoff DiMasi indyhall.org -- Geoff DiMasi P'unk Avenue 215 755 1330 http://punkave.com On Feb 23, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Alex Hillman wrote: I won't get behind some org structure that we don't fit into, but I would happily get behind setting a new precedent (would work for many projects that have disparate stakeholders). AMEN /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Tara Hunt horsepig...@gmail.com wrote: Here is an idea: Years ago, Chris Messina (once again) had a post he put up about community marks: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/14/the-case-for-community-marks/ Rather than fitting ourselves uncomfortably into the current system (that doesn't suit what we want to do), why don't we put our force behind creating a new precedent? I spoke with a guy named Louis Villa (http://tieguy.org/) who had worked with Lawrence Lessig on the Creative Commons project years ago. I know he was quite interested in this idea (I showed him Chris' post). I won't get behind some org structure that we don't fit into, but I would happily get behind setting a new precedent (would work for many projects that have disparate stakeholders). T On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.net wrote: To continue my point, IndyHall existed as a non-entity (just a word, and a bunch of people spreading ideas) for a long time before we created any kind of legal entity, and that was because a commercial lease needed to be signed. There have been no commercial requirements to pull off anything (including the acquisition of a domain), and definitely not for spreading of ideas. Minimally an entity needs to exist to own the domain. Most likely it could be an endowed trust that has funds to pay for perpetual hosting. That way if you die or if you get sued to bankruptcy for whatever reason we don't loose the domain. Unless I miss my guess the domain is currently tied to you as a legal entity. If not, please explain how the community is protected in either of those two awful cases? In fact, the controlling nature of any singular entity (no matter how altruistic) would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from. I'm not being sarcastic but reading that perspective from you and others I can't stop the premise of Green Eggs and Ham from running through my mind. It feels like rather than discuss what it might be and what value it might have that some are just reacting out of fear and thus are closing themselves off from even considering that there may be some value. Please don't take offense, I'm just explaining how it seems to me. As proposed the entity would only do those things we agreed to allow it to do. If there are things it would do that would squash the growth potential that we've all benefited from then we explicitly disallow those things in the bylaws without a supermajority or unanimous vote of members. One thing that *is* needed, and I'll stand firmly on this, is something we can point people to who want to understand what coworking is but who are not true believers like most on this list. For example, the media. Having the media right stories about coworking ends up having them define it for us whether we like it or not. I'd far rather we are in control of that definition and not others who couldn't be bothered to get it right. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. We can define it using principles and by giving examples, it doesn't have to be a single sentence. But it we do not define it others will. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- tara 'missrogue' hunt Book: The Whuffie Factor (http://www.thewhuffiefactor.com) Blog: HorsePigCow: Marketing Uncommon (http://horsepigcow.com) Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/missrogue phone: 514-679-2951 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On Feb 23, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Steven Heath wrote: Implausible? Only if you've never been a party to a lawsuit. It's disgusting what happens when someone who has plenty of money and lawyers on staff can to do those who don't have an infinite war chest to defend, even against frivolous lawsuit, at least in the USA. Thank you for you very long message Stories tend to be longer and opinions. :) about possible risk for an American based entity and outlines in detail some of my reasons for 'anything but a USA based entity'. Hmm. That's wasn't the correctly understood takeaway. That's what happens without a legal entity, not with one. BTW, you are saying you don't have lawsuits in New Zealand? Hmm, this seems to indicate otherwise? http://www.nzlii.org/ -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. Methinks you've got a bit of angst regarding the USA? Just be aware that the USA is filled with people just like NZ, and not all of us prescribe to the Fox News USA can do no wrong mentality. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On 24 February 2010 13:13, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.net wrote: On Feb 23, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Steven Heath wrote: Implausible? Only if you've never been a party to a lawsuit. It's disgusting what happens when someone who has plenty of money and lawyers on staff can to do those who don't have an infinite war chest to defend, even against frivolous lawsuit, at least in the USA. Thank you for you very long message Stories tend to be longer and opinions. :) about possible risk for an American based entity and outlines in detail some of my reasons for 'anything but a USA based entity'. Hmm. That's wasn't the correctly understood takeaway. That's what happens without a legal entity, not with one. BTW, you are saying you don't have lawsuits in New Zealand? Hmm, this seems to indicate otherwise? http://www.nzlii.org/ That points to *laws* and *case law* not *lawsuits* :-) P.S. Methinks you've got a bit of angst regarding the USA? Just be aware that the USA is filled with people just like NZ, and not all of us prescribe to the Fox News USA can do no wrong mentality. No, NZ is not a overly litigious country and case law would not support the hypothetical situation you proposed. I will give you an example of the different mindset in NZ. We have a thing called ACC, think of it as workers comp but applies to ALL injuries that occur, be it home, work, hobby etc. As per their own desc Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) provides comprehensive, no-fault personal injury cover for all New Zealand residents and visitors to New Zealand. www.acc.co.nz Workers, employers and the government pay into it and means that you CAN NOT sue for injury occurred, be it at work, on rugby fielded or a car crash. Read that again, it is illegal to sue for damages a driver of a car that hits you. If they broke the law they will be charged and go through the the courts and insurance (assuming carried) will cover damage to car and ACC will cover your hospital bills and rehab costs. Or in turn you have work place accident and employer has unsafe machinery then they will be charged etc... I know this is off topic but it shows how 'different' America is with regard to legal approach. The sad thing is of course is most Americans do not know any other way so think everyone operates like them. And to shake things up even further is I do not even have health/medical insurance amazing eh? -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On Feb 23, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Steven Heath wrote: http://www.nzlii.org/ That points to *laws* and *case law* not *lawsuits* :-) Sigh. http://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZHC/2010/ ;-) P.S. Methinks you've got a bit of angst regarding the USA? Just be aware that the USA is filled with people just like NZ, and not all of us prescribe to the Fox News USA can do no wrong mentality. No, NZ is not a overly litigious country and case law would not support the hypothetical situation you proposed. Maybe not, but you said my story was an example of why not to form an entity when the reverse is true. Currently in the USA (as Alex is in the USA) it could happen to an individual if the individual continues owning the domain. IF we create a US-based entity (US as a counter example for your assertion against US-based entities) and we give it proper insurance such an outcome would be highly unlikely. desc Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) provides comprehensive, no-fault personal injury cover for all New Zealand residents and visitors to New Zealand. www.acc.co.nz Workers, employers and the government pay into it and means that you CAN NOT sue for injury occurred, be it at work, on rugby fielded or a car crash. We in the USA have the same, it's called Workers Comp. Read that again, it is illegal to sue for damages a driver of a car that hits you. If they broke the law they will be charged and go through the the courts and insurance (assuming carried) will cover damage to car and ACC will cover your hospital bills and rehab costs. Or in turn you have work place accident and employer has unsafe machinery then they will be charged etc... I know this is off topic but it shows how 'different' America is with regard to legal approach. The sad thing is of course is most Americans do not know any other way so think everyone operates like them. Don't get me wrong, I hate the US' legal system and prefer others that are less monopolized by entrenched legal interests. But Alex doing nothing while being subject to US laws doesn't help. I'm not arguing (necessarily) for a US-based entity (nor am I arguing against), I'm arguing against doing nothing, especially while the holder of the domain is a US citizen. And to shake things up even further is I do not even have health/medical insurance amazing eh? Then we *definitely* don't want you to hold the domain... ;-p Whatever the case, I think this pro-vs-con on the US entity is a bit overblown for our purposes. Hell, let's put it in neutral territory: Switzerland (if we could just afford all the fees it would cost!) -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Hi. I support the decision to have a US legal entity as Alex, the current domain gatekeeper, is in the US. Perhaps that could be the precedent - whoever or whichever committee is overseeing these operational roles, that's where we transfer that liability or legal responsibility? Or is that just too difficult? Jerome __ BLANKSPACES work wide open www.blankspaces.com 5405 Wilshire Blvd (2 blocks west of La Brea) Los Angeles, CA 90036 323.330.9505 (office) On Feb 23, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote: On Feb 23, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Steven Heath wrote: http://www.nzlii.org/ That points to *laws* and *case law* not *lawsuits* :-) Sigh. http://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZHC/2010/ ;-) P.S. Methinks you've got a bit of angst regarding the USA? Just be aware that the USA is filled with people just like NZ, and not all of us prescribe to the Fox News USA can do no wrong mentality. No, NZ is not a overly litigious country and case law would not support the hypothetical situation you proposed. Maybe not, but you said my story was an example of why not to form an entity when the reverse is true. Currently in the USA (as Alex is in the USA) it could happen to an individual if the individual continues owning the domain. IF we create a US-based entity (US as a counter example for your assertion against US-based entities) and we give it proper insurance such an outcome would be highly unlikely. desc Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) provides comprehensive, no-fault personal injury cover for all New Zealand residents and visitors to New Zealand. www.acc.co.nz Workers, employers and the government pay into it and means that you CAN NOT sue for injury occurred, be it at work, on rugby fielded or a car crash. We in the USA have the same, it's called Workers Comp. Read that again, it is illegal to sue for damages a driver of a car that hits you. If they broke the law they will be charged and go through the the courts and insurance (assuming carried) will cover damage to car and ACC will cover your hospital bills and rehab costs. Or in turn you have work place accident and employer has unsafe machinery then they will be charged etc... I know this is off topic but it shows how 'different' America is with regard to legal approach. The sad thing is of course is most Americans do not know any other way so think everyone operates like them. Don't get me wrong, I hate the US' legal system and prefer others that are less monopolized by entrenched legal interests. But Alex doing nothing while being subject to US laws doesn't help. I'm not arguing (necessarily) for a US-based entity (nor am I arguing against), I'm arguing against doing nothing, especially while the holder of the domain is a US citizen. And to shake things up even further is I do not even have health/medical insurance amazing eh? Then we *definitely* don't want you to hold the domain... ;-p Whatever the case, I think this pro-vs-con on the US entity is a bit overblown for our purposes. Hell, let's put it in neutral territory: Switzerland (if we could just afford all the fees it would cost!) -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Hi all, On 16 February 2010 13:40, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca wrote: I am volunteering to look into what an international co-op or association could be, and I'll report back pros and cons to the group in a few days. (or maybe by Mon, given what my weekend already looks like) r. If you don't want to read all of this info, please scroll to the end to find a link to a very simple survey. There has been both support in favour of and warnings against forming some sort of organisation. So, as promised, here is a high level comparison of the different types of formal organisations we *could* form - this info is not to sway your opinion for or against such an organisation, but merely to help inform you of some options. Since there is money involved (now with the acquisition of coworking.com, and potentially in future for conferences or even other currently unknown opportunities similar to the domain acquisition) I do recommend that if we decide we want some sort of organisation then it should be a formal legal entity. In keeping with the wish that this not be to any one person's benefit, the only two real options would be a co-op or a non-profit. *Co-operative* A co-op is an autonomous association of persons (or companies with one representative) united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise which is incorporated. PROS - one share, one vote - all members are owners, all members share in the profits through dividends CONS - a fair amount of red tape for the initial set up and distribution of dividends - all members essentially run the company, unless staff are hired (many of us run our own company in addition to running the business of our coworking spaces, so this would be a third company) - it is grammatically correct to include a hyphen in co-op or co-operative and aesthetically that would look weird with coworking (this is not a real point either way, just inserting some rib-jabbing levity in between corporate mumbo jumbo) *Non-profit Corporation * Forming a nonprofit corporation is much like creating a regular corporation, except that nonprofits have to take the extra steps of applying for tax-exempt status. Also called a 501(c)(3) in the USA. PROS - tax exemption(s) - greater qualification for grants - business activities cannot result in personal benefit for any director, officer, or member, which helps in keeping this community as great as it is CONS - cannot participate in political lobbying (influencing legislation) as a substantial part of its total activities (if ever we want to band together to show support in affecting legislation in any country) - there may be some restrictions on the use of assets to purposes justifying tax exemption Does anyone know of another form of legal organisational entity that would be a possible fit for our community? Basically, from what I could find, it would take forming an organisation in one country and then crafting the bylaws to include international members. All forms would essentially be governance, meaning that there would be one body to make decisions for the betterment of all members or interested parties, whether that body is composed of one representative from each coworking space for a co-op or a smaller board of representatives for a non-profit organisation. Either way, the structure would include variations of these steps: 1. Choose a Business Name 2. Prepare and File Articles of Incorporation 3. Apply for Applicable Tax Exemption(s) 4. Draft Corporate Bylaws 5. Appoint Directors 6. Hold a Directors' Meeting (attendees can be virtual in most cases) 7. Obtain Applicable Licenses and Permits * Survey* And with that, I think it is time for a straightforward surveyhttp://bit.ly/928jRPon international governance. It's time to collect brief answers to decide if we move forward, and then if yes then how to move forward. The survey is anonymous, but please decide amongst yourselves in your coworking space and answer as one collective body for your space. This is the only way I can see it being fair so that multiple people from one space don't stack the votes for their own benefit, but is completely replying on the honour system. Survey results will be public but I'll also summarise them in a week or so. Here's hoping this is helpful. r. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Hi Rachel, This is great stuff, really! Thanks for all the effort. One point of note on your non-profit con about political lobbying, at least in the USA, if an organization elects 501(h) instead of 501(c)(3) then they can lobby. Generally, organizations that make the 501(h) election under the 1976 lobbying law may spend 20% of the first $500,000 of their annual expenditures on lobbying ($100,000), 15% of the next $500,000, and so on, up to $1 million dollars. http://www.muridae.com/nporegulation/lobbying.html#lobbying_who_may http://www.asaecenter.com/PublicationsResources/whitepaperdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=12202 -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com P.S. I've recently looked into this issue for another non-profit I'm setting up. :) On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:47 PM, rachel young wrote: Hi all, On 16 February 2010 13:40, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca wrote: I am volunteering to look into what an international co-op or association could be, and I'll report back pros and cons to the group in a few days. (or maybe by Mon, given what my weekend already looks like) r. If you don't want to read all of this info, please scroll to the end to find a link to a very simple survey. There has been both support in favour of and warnings against forming some sort of organisation. So, as promised, here is a high level comparison of the different types of formal organisations we could form - this info is not to sway your opinion for or against such an organisation, but merely to help inform you of some options. Since there is money involved (now with the acquisition of coworking.com, and potentially in future for conferences or even other currently unknown opportunities similar to the domain acquisition) I do recommend that if we decide we want some sort of organisation then it should be a formal legal entity. In keeping with the wish that this not be to any one person's benefit, the only two real options would be a co-op or a non-profit. Co-operative A co-op is an autonomous association of persons (or companies with one representative) united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise which is incorporated. PROS one share, one vote all members are owners, all members share in the profits through dividends CONS a fair amount of red tape for the initial set up and distribution of dividends all members essentially run the company, unless staff are hired (many of us run our own company in addition to running the business of our coworking spaces, so this would be a third company) it is grammatically correct to include a hyphen in co-op or co-operative and aesthetically that would look weird with coworking (this is not a real point either way, just inserting some rib-jabbing levity in between corporate mumbo jumbo) Non-profit Corporation Forming a nonprofit corporation is much like creating a regular corporation, except that nonprofits have to take the extra steps of applying for tax-exempt status. Also called a 501(c)(3) in the USA. PROS tax exemption(s) greater qualification for grants business activities cannot result in personal benefit for any director, officer, or member, which helps in keeping this community as great as it is CONS cannot participate in political lobbying (influencing legislation) as a substantial part of its total activities (if ever we want to band together to show support in affecting legislation in any country) there may be some restrictions on the use of assets to purposes justifying tax exemption Does anyone know of another form of legal organisational entity that would be a possible fit for our community? Basically, from what I could find, it would take forming an organisation in one country and then crafting the bylaws to include international members. All forms would essentially be governance, meaning that there would be one body to make decisions for the betterment of all members or interested parties, whether that body is composed of one representative from each coworking space for a co-op or a smaller board of representatives for a non-profit organisation. Either way, the structure would include variations of these steps: Choose a Business Name Prepare and File Articles of Incorporation Apply for Applicable Tax Exemption(s) Draft Corporate Bylaws Appoint Directors Hold a Directors' Meeting (attendees can be virtual in most cases) Obtain Applicable Licenses and Permits Survey And with that, I think it is time for a straightforward survey on international governance. It's time to collect brief answers to decide if we move forward, and then if yes then how to move forward. The survey is anonymous, but please decide amongst yourselves in your coworking space and answer as one collective body for your
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Hey all. Serious stuff here. Let's take a step back for a second. I believe we are in a dangerous place right now, because money is involved, and everybody is going to have an opinion on how it should be distributed, who should be involved, who has what percent control over what, etc etc etc. The thing that makes this coworking movement so nice is that it's a decentralized starfish organization with no leadership structure, hierarchy, or bureaucracy. The coworking concept is one which we all subscribe to, and that concept lives outside of any formal entity. This group, the wiki, and the blog were carefully crafted with the idea in mind that they facilitate communication amongst a body of people who subscribe to this concept. We're going to have to work on making this thing as fair as possible, but I strongly, strongly, STRONGLY advise that we do NOT try to go in ANY direction which takes us down a path of centralization, raising more money, or hierarchy. This domain purchase was done to secure our word and our movement against co-opting from an external interest, and that's it. The site should be super simple, continue to facilitate conversation and information sharing in an open, decentralized way, and nothing more. If those things are to exist, they should exist outside of the coworking.comdiscussion, when we're able to think about it for more than a couple of days. I gave my money to Alex with clear terms that he set, and I trust him to use those funds to act in the best interests of the movement, and that's it. I don't want a vote, I don't want a board seat. That being said, we just witnessed how much power we collectively have to pool together our resources and accomplish something. If a group of people wants to form an organization that does similar such things, like conferences and software and whatever else, that sounds like a really cool thing to work on. But it should be separate from this domain discussion. The terms Alex suggested are imperfect, and will have to be improved to better facilitate the participation of everyone who believes in what coworking is all about. But injecting structure and hierarchy will do a lot more bad than good. The same way the current blog/wiki/group sites are managed in the background by people who have the best interests of the movement at heart, so too should this domain be managed in a lightweight, nonbureaucratic, and effective manner. Love you guys. Let's keep coworking the beautiful starfish that it is. Tony - New Work City - Work with, not for. Web: http://nwcny.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/nwc Email: t...@nwcny.com Phone: (888) 823-3494 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:40 PM, rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca wrote: I am volunteering to look into what an international co-op or association could be, and I'll report back pros and cons to the group in a few days. (or maybe by Mon, given what my weekend already looks like) r. -- rachel young rac...@camaraderie.ca (416) 801-0196 Find us in person: Camaraderie 102 Adelaide St E, 2nd Floor Find us online: camaraderie.ca/blog twitter.com/camaraderie On 16 February 2010 13:34, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: On Feb 16, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Jerome Chang wrote: I've been hearing that some of you out there have not been so happy about my mentioning of executive suites and therefore, not adhering to the ethos of coworking. I want to clarify that my previous emails were only to propose utilizing some resources that I've come across, and as a way to expedite some progress toward two milestones that I do wish we all hit: conference and organization/alliance/league. The exec suites owners are not the Evil Empire, even though like you, I openly criticize their model and practices. They merely are based on a culture that we coworking people feel needs to adapt and evolve. Besides, they are fully aware of our coworking movement and some of them have already re-appropriated their spaces for coworking. If they are already doing so, shouldn't we at least collaborate with them on a discussion level so they subscribe to our ideals? The problem is that exec suites are the incumbent industry and they currently have a lot more money than coworking space operators. The Coworking movement is one that seeks to be a change agent. Anyone who has read Innovator's Dilemma will know that incumbents will fight change unless it's in their selfish best interest. Positive change that's not aligned with entrenched interests need to come from the outside, not from the inside. If we engage the exec suites industry the likelihood is they will use their funds to extinguish the nascent coworking space operations who are in the formative stage. I'd really prefer to see coworking grow and become it's own thing rather than see it be subsumed as just another exec suite option.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On Feb 16, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Tony Bacigalupo wrote: Serious stuff here. Let's take a step back for a second. I agree with you in principle, but not as black white. Do you see the Open Source Initiative as harmful? They did it in part to control the branding of open source which is essentially what acquiring a domain is about, branding. This doesn't have to be able running a conference, but it should be about branding, IMO. When you get people with shared interest in an initiative together it works when the number is small (see Dunbar's number as reference) but as the number grows and new people come in without the crystal clear ethos of the original members things turn to chaos without some way to manage it. Sadly it's human nature and wanting it to stay the same won't make it so. Worse, someone who does manage it well will be able to co-op the initiative (i.e. the exec suites industry in this case) if it isn't managed by the existing thought leaders and I'd put you, Alex, Tara and a lot of others online here in that group. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. Lead us. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. Lead us. I was one of the ones saying we needed 'something' to hold this name. However, it very quickly became apparent that we did did not agree on what that 'something' was. I very strongly said I would rather have Alex hold the name in trust for ever rather than having a USA LLC or non profit company created. Some of the reasons are legal (USA law is an arse when it comes to non citizens as shareholders) and some of it is watching creatures like ICANN (use USA law against its own directors) and the other is we are not sure what direction is going to occur. We can wait. All those that have paid up trust Alex to do the right thing. Lets do the deal, bed in an initial website and then decide from that point what to do. -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
I haven't been ignoring this thread, or the other related to the coworking.com purchase, I've just been in a conference all day :) I'm going to need some time to catch up. Thanks y'all. /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Steven Heath she...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. Lead us. I was one of the ones saying we needed 'something' to hold this name. However, it very quickly became apparent that we did did not agree on what that 'something' was. I very strongly said I would rather have Alex hold the name in trust for ever rather than having a USA LLC or non profit company created. Some of the reasons are legal (USA law is an arse when it comes to non citizens as shareholders) and some of it is watching creatures like ICANN (use USA law against its own directors) and the other is we are not sure what direction is going to occur. We can wait. All those that have paid up trust Alex to do the right thing. Lets do the deal, bed in an initial website and then decide from that point what to do. -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
RE: [Coworking] Clarification
As we are putting together our coworking space here in St Cloud, MN, I sit back and read all the threads by you 'coworking gurus' and get so impressed by how this movement is just taking off. I thought I was getting into something that was just a simple concept of getting like minded individuals (those who don't like to work alone, but work there own business in the company of others), but now is turning into this huge steam roller of ideas. It really is cool to see the collaboration take place. I still find the hardest part of this, is drumming up other like minded individuals in our community who want to jump on board with the enthusiasm of a coworker. I know it all takes time patients. Keep up the awesome work, Scott Anderson Statewide Property Inspections 320-761-2100 Web www.statewidepropertyinspections.com http://www.statewidepropertyinspections.com/ Blog http://statewide-homeinspections.blogspot.com/ _ From: coworking@googlegroups.com [mailto:cowork...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Hillman Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:07 PM To: coworking@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [Coworking] Clarification I haven't been ignoring this thread, or the other related to the coworking.com purchase, I've just been in a conference all day :) I'm going to need some time to catch up. Thanks y'all. /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Steven Heath she...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. Lead us. I was one of the ones saying we needed 'something' to hold this name. However, it very quickly became apparent that we did did not agree on what that 'something' was. I very strongly said I would rather have Alex hold the name in trust for ever rather than having a USA LLC or non profit company created. Some of the reasons are legal (USA law is an arse when it comes to non citizens as shareholders) and some of it is watching creatures like ICANN (use USA law against its own directors) and the other is we are not sure what direction is going to occur. We can wait. All those that have paid up trust Alex to do the right thing. Lets do the deal, bed in an initial website and then decide from that point what to do. -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:coworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. image002.jpg
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Mike, Good points all around; there's much to be gleaned from the open source movement and what happened to it. I wasn't aware of the Open Source Initiative. Do you know more about how they have helped the world of open source? The phrase still gets co-opted and misused left and right, but I suppose to some extent that can't be helped. Similar to the notion of open source, I hold that coworking is a concept that represents a set of needs and values that nobody can control or own. It simply is what it is. The best we can do is represent that concept the best we can, so that others may more easily and effectively participate. So regardless of what constructs we create, the concept will always exist outside of them. If somebody forms some sort of organization, it should be formed with that fact in mind. Tony - New Work City - Work with, not for. Web: http://nwcny.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/nwc Email: t...@nwcny.com Phone: (888) 823-3494 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: On Feb 16, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Tony Bacigalupo wrote: Serious stuff here. Let's take a step back for a second. I agree with you in principle, but not as black white. Do you see the Open Source Initiative as harmful? They did it in part to control the branding of open source which is essentially what acquiring a domain is about, branding. This doesn't have to be able running a conference, but it should be about branding, IMO. When you get people with shared interest in an initiative together it works when the number is small (see Dunbar's number as reference) but as the number grows and new people come in without the crystal clear ethos of the original members things turn to chaos without some way to manage it. Sadly it's human nature and wanting it to stay the same won't make it so. Worse, someone who does manage it well will be able to co-op the initiative (i.e. the exec suites industry in this case) if it isn't managed by the existing thought leaders and I'd put you, Alex, Tara and a lot of others online here in that group. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. Lead us. -Mike Schinkel Ignition Alley Atlanta Coworking http://ignitionalley.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
, scott anderson sc...@statewidepropertyinspections.com wrote: As we are putting together our coworking space here in St Cloud, MN, I sit back and read all the threads by you ‘coworking gurus’ and get so impressed by how this movement is just taking off. I thought I was getting into something that was just a simple concept of getting like minded individuals (those who don’t like to work alone, but work there own business in the company of others), but now is turning into this huge steam roller of ideas. It really is cool to see the collaboration take place. I still find the hardest part of this, is drumming up other “like minded individuals” in our community who want to jump on board with the enthusiasm of a coworker. I know it all takes time patients. Keep up the awesome work, Scott Anderson Statewide Property Inspections 320-761-2100 *Web* www.statewidepropertyinspections.com *Blog* http://statewide-homeinspections.blogspot.com/ -- *From:* coworking@googlegroups.com [mailto:cowork...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alex Hillman *Sent:* Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:07 PM *To:* coworking@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: [Coworking] Clarification I haven't been ignoring this thread, or the other related to the coworking.com purchase, I've just been in a conference all day :) I'm going to need some time to catch up. Thanks y'all. /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Steven Heath she...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. Lead us. I was one of the ones saying we needed 'something' to hold this name. However, it very quickly became apparent that we did did not agree on what that 'something' was. I very strongly said I would rather have Alex hold the name in trust for ever rather than having a USA LLC or non profit company created. Some of the reasons are legal (USA law is an arse when it comes to non citizens as shareholders) and some of it is watching creatures like ICANN (use USA law against its own directors) and the other is we are not sure what direction is going to occur. We can wait. All those that have paid up trust Alex to do the right thing. Lets do the deal, bed in an initial website and then decide from that point what to do. -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comcoworking%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. image002.jpg
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
On Feb 16, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Steven Heath wrote: I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. I was one of the ones saying we needed 'something' to hold this name. However, it very quickly became apparent that we did did not agree on what that 'something' was. Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with any something other than not doing anything. I was calling for discussing aimed at a resolution. I very strongly said I would rather have Alex hold the name in trust for ever rather than having a USA LLC or non profit company created. A trust would be something. But that is a legal entity, also covered by some countries laws, and a trust requires details to be addressed that have not yet been address. And until your email a trust hasn't been explicitly proposed (at least I don't think one has.) All I'm asking is that we stop debating what *not* to do and start discussing what *to* do. On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Tony Bacigalupo wrote: Good points all around; there's much to be gleaned from the open source movement and what happened to it. I wasn't aware of the Open Source Initiative. Do you know more about how they have helped the world of open source? The phrase still gets co-opted and misused left and right, but I suppose to some extent that can't be helped. Great questions. I subconsciously assume people who are on mailing lists know about the OSI but that's clearly a myopic view of mine. Sorry. :) The term Open Source is a definition for a type of software license. So it's a legal term more than it is a statement about free availability of source code. Public domain source code is open and freely available, but it's not Open Source. Similar to the notion of open source, I hold that coworking is a concept that represents a set of needs and values that nobody can control or own. It simply is what it is. The best we can do is represent that concept the best we can, so that others may more easily and effectively participate. Actually, people collectively came together to define open source, hence the Open Source initiative. Without us agreeing on a definition then it will come to be defined by anyone and everyone who want to pervert it for their own ends much like deciding not to decide is a decision too. Anyway, here is the definition of Open Source: http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd And here are trademark and logo usage guidelines for Open Source: http://www.opensource.org/trademark Here is a list of open source licenses by category: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/category Here's the license review process: http://www.opensource.org/approval So regardless of what constructs we create, the concept will always exist outside of them. If somebody forms some sort of organization, it should be formed with that fact in mind. I think I disagree with that. IMO Coworking is defined implicitly by what all the people on the list and the wiki make it to mean. If we collectively now define it explicitly then we can establish that meaning instead of having its meaning co-opted by others. Let me give you a counter example. Someone who owns an executive suites business changes nothing and rechristens themselves Coworking and thus tarnishes the concept in the minds of all the people they reach. Without doing something like what the OSI did for open source there will be no way to say that those opportunists are not doing coworking. I get that many of you want to avoid the status quo by defining it but 1.) we can define it to include the ethos you cherish and 2.) if we don't define it others will and, mark my words, you won't like it. Reading between the lines it seems some think we can't define Coworking in a similar manner as did the OSI for Open Source. However those of you how know the open source community will almost certainly agree that there are few others communities that are more like herding cats than the open source community. If they could agree on Open Source then us agreeing on the definition of Coworking should be comparatively easy. On Feb 16, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Susan Evans wrote: 1. There has never been better timing for these conversations (I say conversations specifically because there are multiple - I would also agree that the purchase of a domain and the creation of a large international organization are very, very different conversations) than to happen right now, just weeks before SXSWi when so many of us will gather and can have some of these conversations face to face. Very sad that I can't be there. :-( 2. The idea of creating THE coworking organization or THE coworking annual event brings with it more challenges than I think might be worth it. Minimally, since there is only one domain I believe that implies
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
We're now talking about THREE separate but related issues: 1. How to pay for/who owns the domain, long term 2. What kind of entity could exist 3. The definition of coworking Just for those keeping track :) /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.netwrote: On Feb 16, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Steven Heath wrote: I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. I was one of the ones saying we needed 'something' to hold this name. However, it very quickly became apparent that we did did not agree on what that 'something' was. Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with any something other than not doing anything. I was calling for discussing aimed at a resolution. I very strongly said I would rather have Alex hold the name in trust for ever rather than having a USA LLC or non profit company created. A trust would be something. But that is a legal entity, also covered by some countries laws, and a trust requires details to be addressed that have not yet been address. And until your email a trust hasn't been explicitly proposed (at least I don't think one has.) All I'm asking is that we stop debating what *not* to do and start discussing what *to* do. On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Tony Bacigalupo wrote: Good points all around; there's much to be gleaned from the open source movement and what happened to it. I wasn't aware of the Open Source Initiative. Do you know more about how they have helped the world of open source? The phrase still gets co-opted and misused left and right, but I suppose to some extent that can't be helped. Great questions. I subconsciously assume people who are on mailing lists know about the OSI but that's clearly a myopic view of mine. Sorry. :) The term Open Source is a definition for a type of software license. So it's a legal term more than it is a statement about free availability of source code. Public domain source code is open and freely available, but it's not Open Source. Similar to the notion of open source, I hold that coworking is a concept that represents a set of needs and values that nobody can control or own. It simply is what it is. The best we can do is represent that concept the best we can, so that others may more easily and effectively participate. Actually, people collectively came together to define open source, hence the Open Source initiative. Without us agreeing on a definition then it will come to be defined by anyone and everyone who want to pervert it for their own ends much like deciding not to decide is a decision too. Anyway, here is the definition of Open Source: http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd And here are trademark and logo usage guidelines for Open Source: http://www.opensource.org/trademark Here is a list of open source licenses by category: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/category Here's the license review process: http://www.opensource.org/approval So regardless of what constructs we create, the concept will always exist outside of them. If somebody forms some sort of organization, it should be formed with that fact in mind. I think I disagree with that. IMO Coworking is defined implicitly by what all the people on the list and the wiki make it to mean. If we collectively now define it explicitly then we can establish that meaning instead of having its meaning co-opted by others. Let me give you a counter example. Someone who owns an executive suites business changes nothing and rechristens themselves Coworking and thus tarnishes the concept in the minds of all the people they reach. Without doing something like what the OSI did for open source there will be no way to say that those opportunists are not doing coworking. I get that many of you want to avoid the status quo by defining it but 1.) we can define it to include the ethos you cherish and 2.) if we don't define it others will and, mark my words, you won't like it. Reading between the lines it seems some think we can't define Coworking in a similar manner as did the OSI for Open Source. However those of you how know the open source community will almost certainly agree that there are few others communities that are more like herding cats than the open source community. If they could agree on Open Source then us agreeing on the definition of Coworking should be comparatively easy. On Feb 16, 2010, at 6:26 PM, Susan Evans wrote: 1. There has never been better timing for these conversations (I say conversations specifically because there are multiple - I would also agree that the purchase of a domain and the creation of a large international organization are very, very different conversations) than
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
Oh, and as far as in trust relating to a legal entity of a trust, I wasn't. I was referring to trust, the noun, Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing. Stupid english language and multiple meanings for a word! /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Alex Hillman dangerouslyawes...@gmail.comwrote: We're now talking about THREE separate but related issues: 1. How to pay for/who owns the domain, long term 2. What kind of entity could exist 3. The definition of coworking Just for those keeping track :) /ah indyhall.org coworking in philadelphia On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Mike Schinkel mikeschin...@newclarity.net wrote: On Feb 16, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Steven Heath wrote: I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not do nothing. I also think we are all smart and capable people able to come up with an answer that works well if we put our heads together on the matter. I was one of the ones saying we needed 'something' to hold this name. However, it very quickly became apparent that we did did not agree on what that 'something' was. Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with any something other than not doing anything. I was calling for discussing aimed at a resolution. I very strongly said I would rather have Alex hold the name in trust for ever rather than having a USA LLC or non profit company created. A trust would be something. But that is a legal entity, also covered by some countries laws, and a trust requires details to be addressed that have not yet been address. And until your email a trust hasn't been explicitly proposed (at least I don't think one has.) All I'm asking is that we stop debating what *not* to do and start discussing what *to* do. On Feb 16, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Tony Bacigalupo wrote: Good points all around; there's much to be gleaned from the open source movement and what happened to it. I wasn't aware of the Open Source Initiative. Do you know more about how they have helped the world of open source? The phrase still gets co-opted and misused left and right, but I suppose to some extent that can't be helped. Great questions. I subconsciously assume people who are on mailing lists know about the OSI but that's clearly a myopic view of mine. Sorry. :) The term Open Source is a definition for a type of software license. So it's a legal term more than it is a statement about free availability of source code. Public domain source code is open and freely available, but it's not Open Source. Similar to the notion of open source, I hold that coworking is a concept that represents a set of needs and values that nobody can control or own. It simply is what it is. The best we can do is represent that concept the best we can, so that others may more easily and effectively participate. Actually, people collectively came together to define open source, hence the Open Source initiative. Without us agreeing on a definition then it will come to be defined by anyone and everyone who want to pervert it for their own ends much like deciding not to decide is a decision too. Anyway, here is the definition of Open Source: http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd And here are trademark and logo usage guidelines for Open Source: http://www.opensource.org/trademark Here is a list of open source licenses by category: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/category Here's the license review process: http://www.opensource.org/approval So regardless of what constructs we create, the concept will always exist outside of them. If somebody forms some sort of organization, it should be formed with that fact in mind. I think I disagree with that. IMO Coworking is defined implicitly by what all the people on the list and the wiki make it to mean. If we collectively now define it explicitly then we can establish that meaning instead of having its meaning co-opted by others. Let me give you a counter example. Someone who owns an executive suites business changes nothing and rechristens themselves Coworking and thus tarnishes the concept in the minds of all the people they reach. Without doing something like what the OSI did for open source there will be no way to say that those opportunists are not doing coworking. I get that many of you want to avoid the status quo by defining it but 1.) we can define it to include the ethos you cherish and 2.) if we don't define it others will and, mark my words, you won't like it. Reading between the lines it seems some think we can't define Coworking in a similar manner as did the OSI for Open Source. However those of you how know the open source community will almost certainly agree that there are few others communities that are more like herding cats than the open source community. If they could agree on Open Source then us agreeing on the
Re: [Coworking] Clarification
I very strongly said I would rather have Alex hold the name in trust for ever rather than having a USA LLC or non profit company created. A trust would be something. But that is a legal entity, also covered by some countries laws, and a trust requires details to be addressed that have not yet been address. And until your email a trust hasn't been explicitly proposed (at least I don't think one has.) It is like a contract, written contract is easier to prove than an oral one. English common law supports the concept of 'in trust' without a Trust Deed being created. I think however that the current set up is 'for now' which leads to your next point. All I'm asking is that we stop debating what *not* to do and start discussing what *to* do. I think we first need to decide on the problem before working on the solution. Alex posted that we seem to have three issues: 1, How to pay for/who owns the domain, long term 2, What kind of entity could exist 3, The definition of coworking I think it is actually bigger than this because as soon as you explore point 2 'entity' you need to review things like funding, membership/shares, voting, directors, legal compliance, yadda yadda yadda. I now present to you pandora's box. We are starting to open that box with this domain name... -- Steven Heath Director, Foxbane Consulting Founder, AltSpace Cell: +64 21 706-067 www.foxbane.co.nz Level 22 Plimmer Towers 2 Gilmer Terrace Wellington AltSpace.co.nz - Shared office space in Wellington for home based workers, freelancers, or nimble companies -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Coworking group. To post to this group, send email to cowork...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en.
