Re: [css-d] pure CSS drop-down menu

[joyfulevents]

Hi, I am a newbie too, but I found this site very helpful.

http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/index.htm

good luck

> Hi all,
>
>  I'm still very low on the learning curve, so thank you in advance for
> your patience.
>
>  First let me thank eveyone who responded to my earlier (and first)
> post to the list. I ended up going with the Dreamweaver template
> feature to do the frames simulation. That's another learning curve to
> deal with, but it's working so far.
>
> Anyway, I'm rebuilding a site that I inherited, and right now I'm
> stuck on the menu bar. I want a full-width bar with buttons that
> change background color on hover, with drop-downs on some of the
> buttons, and I'd rather do it with pure CSS (which I know almost
> nothing about but am learning fast) rather than java (which I know
> Absolutely nothing about).
>
> I got a great start from Lim Chee Aun at
> http://phoenity.com/newtedge/horizontal_nav/ and put this together
> (internal style sheet for your convenience):
> http://portlandtango.com/exp-9-PTmenu.htm
>
> But I need it to work in IE, and it doesn't, and I am totally clueless
> about any hacks that might fix it.
>
> So then I worked with Patrick Griffith's approach at
> http://alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns/
> and put this together:
> http://portlandtango.com/exp-10c-PTmenu.htm
> which worked in IE7 but for all my hair-tearing-out I couldn't figure out
> how to make it do what I wanted, that is to look like the exp-9-PTmenu
> version.
>
> Any help will be greatly appreciated. A reference to a good tutorial
> on the fine points of ul and li would be especially helpful as I am
> spending hours fumbling around doing trial and error without much
> success, and the tutorials I've found haven't helped. Basically it
> seems that there are several ways of attacking the problem, and I just
> get confused as to the function of some of the code.
>
> Thanks,
>
> J
>
>
>
>
> _
> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
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>


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Re: [css-d] pure CSS drop-down menu

[David Laakso]

Jay Rabe wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> 
> Anyway, I'm rebuilding a site that I inherited, and right now I'm stuck 
> on the menu bar. I want a full-width bar with buttons that change background 
> color on hover, with drop-downs on some of the buttons, and I'd rather do it 
> with pure CSS (which I know almost nothing about but am learning fast) rather 
> than java (which I know Absolutely nothing about).
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>   


Jay,

If you strove to find a problem that is difficult to resolve, then CSS 
drop down menus are it. They seem to be the bane of every Web designer-- 
they can't seem to make 'em work, and they can't seem to live without 
'em. Such is life: both on an off the Web (if you know what I mean). 
While I have no "real world" experience with  drop-downs, I have 
recently experimented with  this [1] little number, and find it works 
unusually well compared with others I've tried. Name of the game (for 
me) seems to be to adhere /very/ closely to the author's model -- 
variation is possible-- but strict adherence first time around will help 
cut the learning curve.

[1] 

Best,

~dL





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Re: [css-d] Converting to EMs

[Kenny Graham]

I think the gimmick they're talking about is using
body {font-size:62.5%;}
in an attempt to give yourself the illusion of 1em = 10px.

An "em" is relative to the user's default font-size, whereas a pixel
is absolute*.  So the 62.5% calculation only works with one specific
default font-size.  The gimmick isn't using em's, it's the idea that
em's and px's can be converted back and forth.  It's not like
converting inches to cm, it's like converting "5 lengths of the user's
thumb" to inches.  If you want to size your page in pixels, you should
use pixels, not em's.  Em's are better, but the technique you were
using above is an attempt to make em's behave identically to pixels,
which is impossible since the size of an em is different for each
user.  Only use a font-size of 1.5em's if you want the font size to be
one and a half times the size of the user's default font.  Not if you
want it to be a specific pixel amount.
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[css-d] pure CSS drop-down menu

[Jay Rabe]

Hi all,

 I'm still very low on the learning curve, so thank you in advance for your 
patience.

 First let me thank eveyone who responded to my earlier (and first) post to 
the list. I ended up going with the Dreamweaver template feature to do the 
frames simulation. That's another learning curve to deal with, but it's working 
so far.

Anyway, I'm rebuilding a site that I inherited, and right now I'm stuck on 
the menu bar. I want a full-width bar with buttons that change background color 
on hover, with drop-downs on some of the buttons, and I'd rather do it with 
pure CSS (which I know almost nothing about but am learning fast) rather than 
java (which I know Absolutely nothing about).

I got a great start from Lim Chee Aun at 
http://phoenity.com/newtedge/horizontal_nav/ and put this together (internal 
style sheet for your convenience):
http://portlandtango.com/exp-9-PTmenu.htm

But I need it to work in IE, and it doesn't, and I am totally clueless about 
any hacks that might fix it.

So then I worked with Patrick Griffith's approach at 
http://alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns/
and put this together:
http://portlandtango.com/exp-10c-PTmenu.htm
which worked in IE7 but for all my hair-tearing-out I couldn't figure out how 
to make it do what I wanted, that is to look like the exp-9-PTmenu version.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. A reference to a good tutorial on the 
fine points of ul and li would be especially helpful as I am spending hours 
fumbling around doing trial and error without much success, and the tutorials 
I've found haven't helped. Basically it seems that there are several ways of 
attacking the problem, and I just get confused as to the function of some of 
the code.

Thanks,

J




_
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Re: [css-d] Converting to EMs

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Pete Harrison wrote:

> Is the use of ems just a gimmick?

It depends. If you actually want to achieve pixel sizes using the em unit, 
then there is little point in it. You haven't described what you wish to 
achieve, so people might make some guesses. Anyway, using percentages is a 
little safer than using the em unit.

Let's see your original question:

>> If I have got this right, to simulate the
>> following;
>>
>> H1=24px
>> H2=18px
>> P=12px

In which sense would you want to simulate it?

If you want to keep the relationships between the sizes the same but use 
adjustable sizes, then you would simply set

h1 { font-size: 200%; }
h2 { font-size: 150%; }

and that's it. No reason to set size for p, since it defaults to the body 
element's font size. What you set for body is a different issue, and often 
debated, but not relevant to keeping the proportions the same.

>> However, is I have a div like #frontpagenews {font-size:2em;}

That's quite a big font size, but let's assume it.

>> with a
>> nested h2, the h2 would seem like it was 9px (using child*parent i.e.
>> 1.8*2=3.6em/36px

Pardon? I can't see where your calculations come from and why you divide ems 
by pixels.

If you have an h2 inside #frontpagenews, then you just have to decide which 
font size you want for it. It's simple anyway: when setting in % (or em), 
you naturally need to take into account the enclosing element's font size, 
because that's what % (and em) is relative to.

>> So I would have to change all em sizes of all nested elements if I
>> had to make a change to just one parent!

If you set a font size relative to an element's parent, then the size 
obviously changes if you change the parent's font size. But it doesn't 
generally change if you change another element's parent's font size.

A wild guess: are you perhaps dealing with a problem that has a solution 
like

#frontpagenews h2 {font-size: 120%;}

or something like that?

Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 

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Re: [css-d] Best option for simple contact form?

[David Hucklesby]

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:12:47 -0400, Allison Kelly wrote:
>
> I need to build a very simple email form for a contact page.
>

Take a look at Wufoo: http://wufoo.com/

I just helped a classmate set up a contact form with the free
service they provide. They have a huge variety of forms they
support, so the options are somewhat overwhelming for a simple
contact form. But the documentation is clearly written - be sure
to read it.

The markup is clean, valid, and CSS friendly. The free version
is paid for by showing an ad to the form submitter on the "thank you"
page, but it's pretty innocuous.

The form even uses the latest anti-spam techniques.

Cordially,
David
--

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Re: [css-d] Converting to EMs

[David Laakso]

Pete Harrison wrote:
> I'm sorry David, I do not understand what you are saying here.
>
> Is the use of ems just a gimmick?
>
> What has the margin size got to do with my question. I was asking about
> nested elements
>
> Regards
> Pete 
>
> Pete Harrison wrote:
>   
>> OK, I'm getting more savvy with CSS and feeling a lot more confident 
>> with many thing I try. However, I've been looking at using EM as the 
>> scaling factor for all my fonts and pictures for accessibility reasons.
>>
>> I must admit, it all seems a little difficult, especially when it 
>> comes to nested elements. If I have got this right, to simulate the 
>> following;
>>
>> H1=24px
>> H2=18px
>> P=12px
>>
>> I would do the following
>>
>> body {font-size:62.5%;}
>> H1 (font-size:2.4em;}
>> H2 (font-size:1.8em;}
>> P (font-size:1.2em}
>>
>> However, is I have a div like #frontpagenews {font-size:2em;} with a 
>> nested h2, the h2 would seem like it was 9px (using child*parent i.e.
>> 1.8*2=3.6em/36px
>>
>> So I would have to change all em sizes of all nested elements if I had 
>> to make a change to just one parent!
>>
>> I think this is a ridiculous this to have to do so I must have got it 
>> all wrong.
>>
>> Please help
>>
>> Regards
>> Pete
>>
>>   
>> 
>
>
> It does not take an advanced degree in mathematics to make words readable on
> the screen.
> The method you are using is one of many such "gimmicks" and while
> interesting they seldom deliver as promoted and are known to fail user
> stress testing.
>
> This works well across-browser when setting fonts in em:
>
> html { font-size : 100%; } 

Re: [css-d] Converting to EMs

[Felix Miata]

On 2007/10/13 23:11 (GMT+0100) Pete Harrison apparently typed:

> From: David Laakso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>> Pete Harrison wrote:

>>> OK, I'm getting more savvy with CSS and feeling a lot more confident 
>>> with many thing I try. However, I've been looking at using EM as the 
>>> scaling factor for all my fonts and pictures for accessibility reasons.

>>> I must admit, it all seems a little difficult, especially when it comes
>>> to nested elements. If I have got this right, to simulate the following;
>>> H1=24px H2=18px P=12px

>>> I would do the following

>>> body {font-size:62.5%;}
>>> H1 (font-size:2.4em;}
>>> H2 (font-size:1.8em;}
>>> P (font-size:1.2em}

>>> However, is I have a div like #frontpagenews {font-size:2em;} with a 
>>> nested h2, the h2 would seem like it was 9px (using child*parent i.e. 
>>> 1.8*2=3.6em/36px

>>> So I would have to change all em sizes of all nested elements if I had 
>>> to make a change to just one parent!

>>> I think this is a ridiculous this to have to do so I must have got it 
>>> all wrong.

>> It does not take an advanced degree in mathematics to make words readable
>> on the screen. The method you are using is one of many such "gimmicks" and
>> while interesting they seldom deliver as promoted and are known to fail
>> user stress testing.

>> This works well across-browser when setting fonts in em:

>> html { font-size : 100%; } 

Re: [css-d] Converting to EMs

[Pete Harrison]

I'm sorry David, I do not understand what you are saying here.

Is the use of ems just a gimmick?

What has the margin size got to do with my question. I was asking about
nested elements

Regards
Pete 

-Original Message-
From: David Laakso [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 13 October 2007 16:38
To: Pete Harrison
Cc: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
Subject: Re: [css-d] Converting to EMs

Pete Harrison wrote:
> OK, I'm getting more savvy with CSS and feeling a lot more confident 
> with many thing I try. However, I've been looking at using EM as the 
> scaling factor for all my fonts and pictures for accessibility reasons.
>
> I must admit, it all seems a little difficult, especially when it 
> comes to nested elements. If I have got this right, to simulate the 
> following;
>
> H1=24px
> H2=18px
> P=12px
>
> I would do the following
>
> body {font-size:62.5%;}
> H1 (font-size:2.4em;}
> H2 (font-size:1.8em;}
> P (font-size:1.2em}
>
> However, is I have a div like #frontpagenews {font-size:2em;} with a 
> nested h2, the h2 would seem like it was 9px (using child*parent i.e.
> 1.8*2=3.6em/36px
>
> So I would have to change all em sizes of all nested elements if I had 
> to make a change to just one parent!
>
> I think this is a ridiculous this to have to do so I must have got it 
> all wrong.
>
> Please help
>
> Regards
> Pete
>
>   


It does not take an advanced degree in mathematics to make words readable on
the screen.
The method you are using is one of many such "gimmicks" and while
interesting they seldom deliver as promoted and are known to fail user
stress testing.

This works well across-browser when setting fonts in em:

html { font-size : 100%; } 

Re: [css-d] downloadable fonts?

[david]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>  >>you don't need Flash to use image replacement techniques. You can
> make heading images using your graphic program of choice, and just link
> in the image as desired.<<
> 
> True - but the site I want to do this for is dynamic, and I need 
> "on-the-fly" headers.  I liked the sIFR method because all I had to do 
> was specify a class for the "special" header, and it would render it as 
> needed - rather than having to go to the trouble of making an image, 
> uploading and linking to it every time I wanted to use it.

If your server is running Linux, there are a number of command line 
tools that can be run via CGI to generate heading images on the fly.

-- 
David
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
authenticity, honesty, community
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Re: [css-d] CSS Slide Show

[Andrew Doades]

David Laakso wrote:
> Andrew Doades wrote:
>   
>> This is the kind of thing I am looking for, but I need  some help with 
>> the coding, that is the main problem!
>>
>> David Laakso wrote:
>> 
>>> Andrew Doades wrote:
>>>  
>>>   
 I am working on a site, where I need a set up small images to one 
 side, or bottom, and when the views slick on the small images there 
 is a larger image with text about the image, I have read that this 
 can be done in CSS, but I can't find anywhere that I can get help 
 for doing this.

 Cheers,
 Andrew
   
 
>>> Generally, behavior is best left to another technology-- but this is 
>>> one of the few of such CSS image galleries of merit:
>>> 
>>>
>>> There are other CSS galleries but most inevitably fail at user 
>>> friendliness, accessibility, and keyboard functionality.
>>>
>>> A friend of the list (s) shared a delightful image gallery with me 
>>> that might meet your need but I am not sure it is ready for release.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> ~dL
>>>
>>>   
>>>   
>
>
>
> Andrew,
>
> Put your page on a public server and someone on the list will lend a 
> hand with whater the coding difficulty may be.
>
> Regards,
>
> ~dL
>
> PS On this list, for a number of reasons, please write /below/ those to 
> whom you reply; /and/ hit "reply all" when sending.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   
Cheers, David

Cheers for the point about replying!
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Re: [css-d] CSS Slide Show

[David Laakso]

Andrew Doades wrote:
> This is the kind of thing I am looking for, but I need  some help with 
> the coding, that is the main problem!
>
> David Laakso wrote:
>> Andrew Doades wrote:
>>  
>>> I am working on a site, where I need a set up small images to one 
>>> side, or bottom, and when the views slick on the small images there 
>>> is a larger image with text about the image, I have read that this 
>>> can be done in CSS, but I can't find anywhere that I can get help 
>>> for doing this.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andrew
>>>   
>>
>> Generally, behavior is best left to another technology-- but this is 
>> one of the few of such CSS image galleries of merit:
>> 
>>
>> There are other CSS galleries but most inevitably fail at user 
>> friendliness, accessibility, and keyboard functionality.
>>
>> A friend of the list (s) shared a delightful image gallery with me 
>> that might meet your need but I am not sure it is ready for release.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> ~dL
>>
>>   
>



Andrew,

Put your page on a public server and someone on the list will lend a 
hand with whater the coding difficulty may be.

Regards,

~dL

PS On this list, for a number of reasons, please write /below/ those to 
whom you reply; /and/ hit "reply all" when sending.







-- 
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

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Re: [css-d] CSS Slide Show

[David Laakso]

Andrew Doades wrote:
> I am working on a site, where I need a set up small images to one side, 
> or bottom, and when the views slick on the small images there is a 
> larger image with text about the image, I have read that this can be 
> done in CSS, but I can't find anywhere that I can get help for doing this.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrew
>   

Generally, behavior is best left to another technology-- but this is one 
of the few of such CSS image galleries of merit:


There are other CSS galleries but most inevitably fail at user 
friendliness, accessibility, and keyboard functionality.

A friend of the list (s) shared a delightful image gallery with me that 
might meet your need but I am not sure it is ready for release.

Best,

~dL

-- 
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

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[css-d] CSS Slide Show

[Andrew Doades]

I am working on a site, where I need a set up small images to one side, 
or bottom, and when the views slick on the small images there is a 
larger image with text about the image, I have read that this can be 
done in CSS, but I can't find anywhere that I can get help for doing this.

Cheers,
Andrew
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Re: [css-d] Converting to EMs

[David Laakso]

Pete Harrison wrote:
> OK, I'm getting more savvy with CSS and feeling a lot more confident with
> many thing I try. However, I've been looking at using EM as the scaling
> factor for all my fonts and pictures for accessibility reasons.
>
> I must admit, it all seems a little difficult, especially when it comes to
> nested elements. If I have got this right, to simulate the following;
>
> H1=24px
> H2=18px
> P=12px
>
> I would do the following
>
> body {font-size:62.5%;}
> H1 (font-size:2.4em;}
> H2 (font-size:1.8em;}
> P (font-size:1.2em}
>
> However, is I have a div like #frontpagenews {font-size:2em;} with a nested
> h2, the h2 would seem like it was 9px (using child*parent i.e.
> 1.8*2=3.6em/36px
>
> So I would have to change all em sizes of all nested elements if I had to
> make a change to just one parent!
>
> I think this is a ridiculous this to have to do so I must have got it all
> wrong.
>
> Please help
>
> Regards
> Pete
>
>   


It does not take an advanced degree in mathematics to make words 
readable on the screen.
The method you are using is one of many such "gimmicks" and while 
interesting they seldom deliver as promoted and are known to fail user 
stress testing.

This works well across-browser when setting fonts in em:

html { font-size : 100%; } 

[css-d] Converting to EMs

[Pete Harrison]

OK, I'm getting more savvy with CSS and feeling a lot more confident with
many thing I try. However, I've been looking at using EM as the scaling
factor for all my fonts and pictures for accessibility reasons.

I must admit, it all seems a little difficult, especially when it comes to
nested elements. If I have got this right, to simulate the following;

H1=24px
H2=18px
P=12px

I would do the following

body {font-size:62.5%;}
H1 (font-size:2.4em;}
H2 (font-size:1.8em;}
P (font-size:1.2em}

However, is I have a div like #frontpagenews {font-size:2em;} with a nested
h2, the h2 would seem like it was 9px (using child*parent i.e.
1.8*2=3.6em/36px

So I would have to change all em sizes of all nested elements if I had to
make a change to just one parent!

I think this is a ridiculous this to have to do so I must have got it all
wrong.

Please help

Regards
Pete

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Re: [css-d] downloadable fonts?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

 >>http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200710/the_resurrection_of_downloadable_web_fonts/<<

Thanks Peter - this article is actually what made me want to ask you all 
this question :)   I remember this method being discussed a couple of 
times here (or something similar to it), but not in the context that I'd 
like, really (didn't answer the questions I have).

 >>you don't need Flash to use image replacement techniques. You can
make heading images using your graphic program of choice, and just link
in the image as desired.<<

True - but the site I want to do this for is dynamic, and I need 
"on-the-fly" headers.  I liked the sIFR method because all I had to do 
was specify a class for the "special" header, and it would render it as 
needed - rather than having to go to the trouble of making an image, 
uploading and linking to it every time I wanted to use it.

 >>You run into the problem of font licenses <<

This actually isn't a concern for me, because I never plan to use any 
fonts that are not free (in fact, the one that started this quest *is* a 
freely available font, with a GNU license).

As for the rest, I'm already prepared to have an alternative standard 
font to be in the "pretty" font's stead - I'm not planning to have this 
be something that I can force on people.  It's just something nice to 
provide to people who are ready to see it - if javascript's shut off, or 
whatever - then a standard font is used, no problem (I'm not designing 
around the font, I'm just enhancing the current design a little bit with 
the availability of this - I don't expect everyone to see it.)

I just wanted to know that, for people that *can* see it, if this would 
be a bad idea to use.  It's not something that is required for my design 
to work (it would be insane for me to think I could be!), but it's just 
a "little something extra" I wanted to add - but I wanted to be sure if 
I did it, it wouldn't be a detriment in any way.  If it is, I'm 
abandoning the idea and going with what I have - which is honestly fine 
as it stands.

...and thanks for those links Eileen - I'll be reading up on it :)

(And as a side note: "The Resurrection of Downloadable Web Fonts By 
Roger Johansson." - that's funny.  My old boss in Minneapolis was names 
"Roger Johannson".  I doubt he wrote an article on fonts though ;) )

Thanks all - and as always, any further input is well appreciated!

~Shelly

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Re: [css-d] tables, table captions in I.E.6

[Michael Leibson]

From: Philippe Wittenbergh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [css-d] tables, table captions in I.E.6


On Oct 11, 2007, at 12:50 AM, Michael Leibson wrote:

> http://members.distributel.net/~leibson/table%20or%20caption%20margins%20in%20IE.htm
> First problem:
> The margin  for the table caption displays properly in FF2, but not at all in 
> IE6.
> Second problem:
> Although the caption margins are only set for 'top' and 'bottom',  
> IE6 gives it the same L and R margins as the table (while FF2 does  
> not).

. . . result: it is kind of a mess out there...
One approach I've taken in a similar situation as yours:
* don't apply margins to the table, but wrap it in a div and apply  
the margins to the div.
* for margins on the caption: set them to 0, and wrap the text of the  
caption in a span, style the span with display:block + margins as  
needed. That still fails in WebKit/Safari.

... or don't use caption, but headings (like h5 or h6, depending on  
your document structure).

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh



Thanks for answering this, Philippe!  I'll try your solutions.
- Michael





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End of css-d Digest, Vol 59, Issue 12
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Re: [css-d] downloadable fonts?

[Eileen]

On 10/13/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This sounds like a good solution to a problem I currently have.  But I
> didn't know much about it.  Is using downloadable fonts in your
> wondered what the pros here thought about it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> ~Shelly






Downloadable Fonts - Safari now supports CSS @font-face rules
By Dave Hyatt.
"WebKit now supports CSS @font-face rules. With font face rules you can
specify downloadable custom fonts on your Web pages or alias one font
to another..."
http://webkit.org/blog/124/downloadable-fonts/

Fonts in Your Face
By Jon Hicks.
"...First problem, yes this will mean some people will specify
unreadable/unsuitable type for body copy, but what's new? It simply
means that there will be a wider variety of unreadable fonts to choose
from. Secondly, and this is the real sticking point, font licensing..."
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/fonts-in-your-face

A Type In the Right Direction?
Dan Cederholm.
"...While this certainly could be true for many, it doesn't mean that
web designers can't become good typographers ? especially when given
the chance with more of a variety of typefaces to work with. The worry
that all web pages will be suddenly ruined with crappy free fonts
everywhere overshadows the fact that some good can come out of the
ability to at least have a choice to use those crappy (and/or potential
useful) fonts. Give us all a chance, eh?..."
http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2007/10/05/fonts.html

The Resurrection of Downloadable Web Fonts
By Roger Johansson.
"...I can see how useful this can be, though I do worry that many will
not be able to use this tool responsibly. Then again, that applies to
most tools."
http://tinyurl.com/yug6cx
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