[css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
-Original Message- From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org [mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org] b is presentational. It says, Make this bold. em and strong aren't presentational. They say emphasize/strongly emphasize this. They don't say HOW to emphasize/strongly emphasize it. They're just saying that this text is more important than surrounding text, so emphasize it. --- And how is that text emphasized? In most cases by changing the way it is presented to the reader. I know EM and STRONG don't require that it's presentation be changed which is probably where everyone thinks that the tags are then rendered non-presentational. I use use EM when I want italic and STRONG when I want bold, sometimes I'll change the font color as well, therefore I consider them presentational tags. Mike (Got in a hurry and originally sent to the WD list :( ) __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
Michael Stevens said: I use use EM when I want italic and STRONG when I want bold, sometimes I'll change the font color as well, therefore I consider them presentational tags. Are your definitions the ideal we all should adhere to? I think not. Why a specific developer choose to misuse a certain element or a group thereof, doesn't make that element presentational per definition. You can say that you use specific elements for presentational reasons of course, but if you don't point that out clearly in the discussion to begin with, then it's quite hard to discuss the topic meaningfully. Because, if the developer uses some elements primarily for their browser default CSS, then any element can be considered presentational for that reason. Which is a quite pointless set of considerations to have to use in this discussion in this forum. But perhaps (hopefully) I'm missing your point. /MB __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
Michael Stevens wrote: -Original Message- From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org [mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org] b is presentational. It says, Make this bold. em and strong aren't presentational. They say emphasize/strongly emphasize this. They don't say HOW to emphasize/strongly emphasize it. They're just saying that this text is more important than surrounding text, so emphasize it. --- And how is that text emphasized? In most cases by changing the way it is presented to the reader. I know EM and STRONG don't require that it's presentation be changed which is probably where everyone thinks that the tags are then rendered non-presentational. Yes, Michael, those are the browser designer decisions that I mentioned in my original email. I use use EM when I want italic and STRONG when I want bold, sometimes I'll change the font color as well, therefore I consider them presentational tags. You can use them that way, too. -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
I use use EM when I want italic and STRONG when I want bold, therefore I consider them presentational tags. That's like saying I use CODE when I want a monospace font and LI when I want bullets next to text, therefore I consider them presentational tags. I hope you see how both of those are ludicrous. __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
b is presentational. It says, Make this bold. em and strong aren't presentational. They say emphasize/strongly emphasize this. They don't say HOW to emphasize/strongly emphasize it. They're just saying that this text is more important than surrounding text, so emphasize it. --- And how is that text emphasized? In most cases by changing the way it is presented to the reader. I know EM and STRONG don't require that it's presentation be changed which is probably where everyone thinks that the tags are then rendered non-presentational. Yes, Michael, those are the browser designer decisions that I mentioned in my original email. I use use EM when I want italic and STRONG when I want bold, sometimes I'll change the font color as well, therefore I consider them presentational tags. You can use them that way, too. fwiw, I don't agree. If an author wants italics or bold then he emshould/em, strongmust/strong, use i and b. To stay on-topic I won't mention semantics (should be a no brainer though), but CSS: a User Agent does *not* have to make em italics and strong bold, but it has to for i and b. -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | articles and tutorials www.ez-css.org | ultra light CSS framework __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
Thierry Koblentz wrote:
fwiw, I don't agree.
If an author wants italics or bold then heemshould/em,
strongmust/strong, usei andb.
To stay on-topic I won't mention semantics (should be a no brainer though),
but CSS: a User Agent does *not* have to makeem italics andstrong
bold, but it has to fori andb.
Although I don't disagree with your underlying premiss,
I do disagree with your conclusions. A User Agent is no
more obliged to render i elements in italics, or
b elements in bold, than it is required to set off
p elements by vertical white space. CSS gives
both author and consumer the opportunity (or right,
or privilege : call it what you will) to override
any of those default renderings, as in :
I {font-style: normal; font-weight: bold}
B {font-style: italic; font-weight: normal}
P {margin-top: 0ex; margin-bottom: 0ex}
Philip Taylor
__
css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
At 20:08 + on 03/06/2010, Philip TAYLOR (Ret'd) wrote about Re:
[css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags:
Thierry Koblentz wrote:
fwiw, I don't agree.
If an author wants italics or bold then heemshould/em,
strongmust/strong, usei andb.
To stay on-topic I won't mention semantics (should be a no brainer though),
but CSS: a User Agent does *not* have to makeem italics andstrong
bold, but it has to fori andb.
Although I don't disagree with your underlying premiss,
I do disagree with your conclusions. A User Agent is no
more obliged to render i elements in italics, or
b elements in bold, than it is required to set off
p elements by vertical white space. CSS gives
both author and consumer the opportunity (or right,
or privilege : call it what you will) to override
any of those default renderings, as in :
I {font-style: normal; font-weight: bold}
B {font-style: italic; font-weight: normal}
P {margin-top: 0ex; margin-bottom: 0ex}
Philip Taylor
You are confusing two issues. What the statement you are replying to
said was that i and b will ALWAYS be displayed as respectively
italic and bold by the UA/Browser. em and strong on the other
hand will display in whatever style the Designer of the UA/Browser
decided they should (although the usual method is italic and bold
respectively).
This is how the displays work UNLESS you override the decision of the
UA via use of CSS rules. When you say A User Agent is no more
obliged to render i elements in italics, or b elements in bold
... you are incorrect. In the absence of a CSS override i and b
ARE orders to display in italic or bold.
CSS is a way of changing the built-in defaults for how to display
text enclosed in the different tags.
Bob Rosenberg
RockMUG Webmaster
webmas...@rockmug.org
www.RockMUG.org
__
css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] Clearing floats in a dl clears a previous float I didn't want cleared...
I am a volunteer webmaster for a couple of churches, and on one site all pages have a header div across the top, and below that a navigation div floated left with main content div flowing to its right. One page lists parish events of which we have photos and/or video elsewhere on the site. Currently, I just describe those events in paragraphs with links to pages with the photos/video. It works, but I recently decided it would be both more visually interesting and more helpful to put an illustrative photo to the left of the description of each event. So instead of just paragraphs, I set up a dl with a series of list items each of which is as follows: dttitle/dt ddimage file/dd ddtext about the event/dd and used CSS to format it, floating the dds with an img to the left, allowing the other dds with the descriptive text to flow to the right, and I put a clear float in the dt to separate them, because there wasn't always enough text to prevent the next list item from stacking to the right of the previous one. I could probably fine-tune the formatting a bit, but basically it does what I want. The problem is that when I clear the dt it clears the previously left-floated navigation div, which forces the entire dl below that, which I don't want! I tried floating the images right and clearing right on the dt which indeed solved that problem, but unfortunately it just looks a whole lot better to me with the images at the left. I have the old/current version with just paragraphs, here: http://www.holycrossoca.org/phot/photos.html And the newer one I'm working on here (with just 2010, so far, in the new format): http://www.holycrossoca.org/phot/photos2.html And the newer one with the images floated right and cleared right here: http://www.holycrossoca.org/phot/photos4.html I could easily do this with a table, and I suppose I could convince myself that it's semantically tabular in that the rows are events, the left column is image data and the right column is text data of the event constituting each row. But I'd rather use CSS to format this. I confess that I'm scared of using absolute or relative positioning because in lurking on this list, gosh it seems like even the professionals have trouble making those things work right, but by all means I'll consider all options. Do you have any suggestions? Many thanks! Theophan __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
Bob Rosenberg said: CSS is a way of changing the built-in defaults for how to display text enclosed in the different tags. The built-in defaults ARE CSS. It's the CSS the browsermakers decided to have builtin. Technically, this is the case with Firefox anyway. __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
Bob Rosenberg said: CSS is a way of changing the built-in defaults for how to display text enclosed in the different tags. The built-in defaults ARE CSS. It's the CSS the browsermakers decided to have builtin. Technically, this is the case with Firefox anyway. They decide following the specs. -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | articles and tutorials www.ez-css.org | ultra light CSS framework __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
Thierry Koblentz wrote:
fwiw, I don't agree.
If an author wants italics or bold then heemshould/em,
strongmust/strong, usei andb.
To stay on-topic I won't mention semantics (should be a no brainer
though),
but CSS: a User Agent does *not* have to makeem italics
andstrong
bold, but it has to fori andb.
Although I don't disagree with your underlying premiss, I do disagree
with your conclusions. A User Agent is no more obliged to render i
elements in italics, or b elements in bold, than it is required to
set off p elements by vertical white space.
I don't think you can make a parallel between the margin on p and the
font-weight on b afaik, the b element has been kept in the spec for a
specific purpose: to make text bold.
The same with i, it is to render text in italics.
CSS gives
both author and consumer the opportunity (or right, or privilege :
call it what you will) to override any of those default renderings, as
in :
I {font-style: normal; font-weight: bold}
B {font-style: italic; font-weight: normal}
P {margin-top: 0ex; margin-bottom: 0ex}
The above is irrelevant, we are talking about User Agents' default styles
sheet.
b *means* bold, no matter the font-weight authors choose to style it with.
I'd say it would make no sense if a UA were styling b with a normal
font-weight. On the other hand, I think it would make sense (to some extend)
if a UA were styling strong in red with an underline.
imho, this is because b must convey *bold* while strong must convey
strong emphasis.
--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | articles and tutorials www.ez-css.org | ultra light CSS
framework
__
css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
-Original Message- From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org [mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org] Subject: Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags Because, if the developer uses some elements primarily for their browser default CSS, then any element can be considered presentational for that reason. Which is a quite pointless set of considerations to have to use in this discussion in this forum. -- My point was that, stricly semantically speaking (real semantics not web semantics), most tags are used to change the way a browser presents text to the reader. That is PRESENTATTIONAL by definition. I understand that some tags have an inherent meaning. In the end they almost always change the way the text is presented. So, to me and my simple mind these arguments about things being semantic or not are humorous at best. Mike __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Clearing floats in a dl clears a previous float I didn't want cleared...
Theophan Dort wrote: I am a volunteer webmaster for a couple of churches, and on one site all pages have a header div across the top, and below that a navigation div floated left with main content div flowing to its right. Do you have any suggestions? Theophan Hi Theophan, A fast and dirty suggestion. Nothing wrong with using a dl I guess. I just did it different. http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ca/cssd/o.htm CSS Embedded Cursory checked in IE 6/78, Safari, Camino, SeaMonkey, FF. And Mac Opera at 32px minimum font-size. br class=clearfloat!--this was deleted as it is no loger needed h2Photos and Videos from 2009/h2 Best, ~d -- desktop http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ mobile http://chelseacreekstudio.mobi/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Clearing floats in a dl clears a previous float I didn't want cleared...
A fast and dirty suggestion. Nothing wrong with using a dl I guess. I just did it different. It works -- it's perfect! I have to study up on that overflow hidden that seems to be a key in how it works even when the text in one div is short. I'll go back to my books, and if I can't figure it out, I'll ask again. MANY thanks! Theophan __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Clearing floats in a dl clears a previous float I didn't want cleared...
Theophan Dort wrote: A fast and dirty suggestion. Nothing wrong with using a dl I guess. I just did it different. It works -- it's perfect! I have to study up on that overflow hidden that seems to be a key in how it works even when the text in one div is short. I'll go back to my books, and if I can't figure it out, I'll ask again. MANY thanks! Theophan O.K. This stuff drives me nuts. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html see css2.1-- block formatting context 9.4.1 Block formatting contexts Floats, absolutely positioned elements, inline-blocks, table-cells, table-captions, and elements with 'overflow' other than 'visible' (except when that value has been propagated to the viewport) establish new block formatting contexts. Best, ~d -- desktop http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ mobile http://chelseacreekstudio.mobi/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] FW: bemstrongi tags
MB wrote: Bob Rosenberg said: CSS is a way of changing the built-in defaults for how to display text enclosed in the different tags. The built-in defaults ARE CSS. It's the CSS the browsermakers decided to have builtin. Technically, this is the case with Firefox anyway. No, you are both wrong in opposite ways. The user agent defaults are just style sheets and an important part in the cascade. http://css-class.com/test/css/defaults/UA-style-sheet-defaults.htm Note that b and strong have the same defaults (I think that there is a mistake concerning FF) and i and em have the same defaults. They are part of the cascade of style sheets from user agent, user to author which we know as CSS (Cascading Style Sheets). BTW, the browser implementors are following the specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#cascade -- Alan http://css-class.com/ Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Creating a small table
Brian M. Curran wrote: Hi All, I need to make a small table for my website (For my rates of service.), and so my question is, Does anyone know of a resource for different styles of CSS tables, so I can get some ideas on neat table styles/layouts? Something akin to listamatic for lists. Sincerely, Brian Please see: http://icant.co.uk/csstablegallery/ Best, ~d Thank you!! __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] IE7 bug with inheritance
Hi all! Please read the latest two posts on IE7 on my blog and tell me if I stumbled on something that's well-documented or not. Can you make up a static test? I used JavaScript to create spans in the following structure: ul id=navigation lia href=spanLink/span/a/li /ul Try to apply some styles to :hover: nothing happens to links, but they maintain the same styles specified before. thanks in advance. ps. the solution is to specify styles for the span elements. G. ^^ http://www.css-zibaldone.com http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/ (English) http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/ (English) http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/ (English) __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] IE7 bug with inheritance
Gabriele Romanato wrote:
Hi all!
Please read the latest two posts on IE7 on my blog and tell me if I
stumbled on something that's well-documented or not. Can you make up a
static test? I used JavaScript to create spans in the following
structure:
ul id=navigation
lia href=spanLink/span/a/li
/ul
Try to apply some styles to :hover: nothing happens to links, but they
maintain the same styles specified before. thanks in advance.
ps. the solution is to specify styles for the span elements.
G. ^^
Hello Gabriele.
This is only one of the solutions. IE7 has trouble with :hover when an
element does not have hasLayout. You didn't mention which element the
hover transition is applied too. Is it the li or the a?
What styles for the span element is needed for your solution? The
below hasLayout trigger could be another solution.
*:first-child+html #navigation a,
*:first-child+html #navigation span {
min-height:1%;
}
Here are some explanations.
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html#link
http://www.brunildo.org/test/IEABlock1.html
http://www.brunildo.org/test/IEul1.html
--
Alan http://css-class.com/
Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
__
css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
