Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-15 Thread MiB 


mar 13 2014 23:02 MiB digital.disc...@gmail.com:

 mar 13 2014 Ezequiel Garzón garzon.luc...@gmail.com:
 
 http://81.4.104.136/fonts.html 
 
 
 I don’t see your issue in Android nor in IOS. Anyone else?

I have now tested this page on several other Android hand sets and the text 
sizes of both the elements are the same. Clearly this issue is limited to some 
sets or alternatively some Android versions.

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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-14 Thread MiB 

mar 14 2014 00:24 L. David Baron dba...@dbaron.org:

 On Sunday 2014-03-09 21:52 +0100, Ezequiel Garzón wrote:
 Is this font boosting/inflation?
 
 It sounds like it is.

Could it be that only certain android versions are affected? I’ve never 
encountered this issue on any platform before. I also have never heard of it. 
Maybe the context and/or the specific rules affect the outcome?

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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-14 Thread L. David Baron 
[ cc:ing list again, with Ezequiel Garzón's permission ]

On Friday 2014-03-14 10:36 +0100, Ezequiel Garzón wrote:
  Is this font boosting/inflation?
 
  It sounds like it is.
 
 
 Thanks for the feedback, David. I don't mean to extend this thread ad
 infinitum, but it's basically the core of my question to this list.
 Doesn't a feature named font inflation, which basically decides
 what's the best size for a given chunk of text, break CSS badly? If
 this is the industry trend I wouldn't be surprised to see major
 browsers apply font boosting even with the meta tag, etc. What's next?
 Font wisdom, where the browser chooses font family, color, weight,
 etc., ignoring all the styling? I wish browsers spent more time on
 making CSS-free content look better, improving their defaults (tables
 come quickly to mind), instead of ignoring CSS declarations.

The alternative to font inflation is substantially worse.

Mobile browsers give you a viewport in which you can pan and zoom
around a desktop-size viewport of the page.  This feature exists for
compatibility, to allow mobile Web browsers to view Web pages
designed before good mobile Web browsers existed, or designed
without considering them.  If you've considered mobile in your
design, you can use a meta viewport in your page to opt out of
parts or all of this behavior.

Some Web pages contain text that the user wants to read, and to do
this, and in cases where these dual viewports exist, the user needs
to zoom in to make the text a decent size.  If, at that zoom level
where the font is readably large, the user needs to scroll side to
side to reach *each line* of the text, because the width of the
block is wider than the device.  This is a horrible experience.

Font inflation exists to solve only this problem, which is a problem
that fundamentally would make mobile Web browsers unusable.  It
doesn't happen if pages declare a meta viewport that means there's
no viewport scaling involved, and it doesn't happen if all their
blocks are narrow enough to be readable without side-to-side
scrolling for each line.

-David

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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-14 Thread Tom Livingston 
 The alternative to font inflation is substantially worse.

 Mobile browsers give you a viewport in which you can pan and zoom
 around a desktop-size viewport of the page.  This feature exists for
 compatibility, to allow mobile Web browsers to view Web pages
 designed before good mobile Web browsers existed, or designed
 without considering them.  If you've considered mobile in your
 design, you can use a meta viewport in your page to opt out of
 parts or all of this behavior.

 Some Web pages contain text that the user wants to read, and to do
 this, and in cases where these dual viewports exist, the user needs
 to zoom in to make the text a decent size.  If, at that zoom level
 where the font is readably large, the user needs to scroll side to
 side to reach *each line* of the text, because the width of the
 block is wider than the device.  This is a horrible experience.

 Font inflation exists to solve only this problem, which is a problem
 that fundamentally would make mobile Web browsers unusable.  It
 doesn't happen if pages declare a meta viewport that means there's
 no viewport scaling involved, and it doesn't happen if all their
 blocks are narrow enough to be readable without side-to-side
 scrolling for each line.

 -David

 --
 턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org


I'd go along with this except...

You say Font inflation exists to solve only this problem, which is a
problem that fundamentally would make mobile Web browsers unusable.
It doesn't happen if pages declare a meta viewport.

The OP's page here: http://81.4.104.136/fonts.html doesn't inflate the
fonts for me on my iPhone. It miniaturizes them. Severely. This page
doesn't have the viewport meta tag in the head. Without the meta tag,
I will need to pinch and zoom, but the sizes are ridiculously small.
I'm gonna guess that because there is no layout, the width of the page
is very large so it is zoomed OUT a great deal. Right? Am I missing
something?


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ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-14 Thread Philippe Wittenbergh 

Le 15 mars 2014 à 05:52, Tom Livingston tom...@gmail.com a écrit :

 You say Font inflation exists to solve only this problem, which is a
 problem that fundamentally would make mobile Web browsers unusable.
 It doesn't happen if pages declare a meta viewport.
 
 The OP's page here: http://81.4.104.136/fonts.html doesn't inflate the
 fonts for me on my iPhone. It miniaturizes them. Severely. This page
 doesn't have the viewport meta tag in the head. Without the meta tag,
 I will need to pinch and zoom, but the sizes are ridiculously small.
 I'm gonna guess that because there is no layout, the width of the page
 is very large so it is zoomed OUT a great deal. Right? Am I missing
 something?

Mobile Safari, in the absence of any viewport meta declaration, assumes a 
viewport 980px wide (that is equivalent to 980px wide window on a desktop 
browser). Of course the 'window' on iPad/iPhone is (much) narrower, thus the 
uniform downwards scaling of the page - this is/was done to insure that pages 
designed for the desktop would be viewable as a whole on those devices. Apple 
then invented two things to improve the usability: the double-tap on a column 
zooms/inflates that column and center it in the viewport, and then the viewport 
meta to set a specific width.
(OK, and a few more - font-inflation in some circumstances [*], and the ability 
to control it via the text-size-adjust property)

So no, you're not really missing anything.

And fwiw apple.com still has meta name=viewport content=width=1024 /

 [*] it always puzzles me how it exactly works, most of the time relying on it 
is like a game of Russian roulette… and gives bizarre results. On sites that 
can't really be made “responsive” for a variety of reasons I routinely set the 
text-size-adjust property to 100% (prefixed!), and use the viewport meta to set 
a width - similar to what apple.com does. Although Apple doesn't use the 
text-size-adjust property afaict; but then, they structured their content to 
avoid the font-inflation problem, I think.

Philippe
--
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com




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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-13 Thread Ezequiel Garzón 



 You don't explain what you mean with same size -- in a valid HTML5
 document I wouldn't get that issue you claim -- nor do you post online code
 as HTML/CSS. It's pointless to debate what you think happened with a
 picture. Make it happen in all of our browsers too -- by posting validated
 code that illustrates your problem -- or talk about a specific known issue.


I did post (almost) valid code in my first message, but here it goes again.
Seeking validation I added a forgotten pair of forgotten TR tags, as well
as !doctype, charset information and a title:

!doctype html
meta charset=utf-8
titleInconsistent font size?/title
style
table { border-spacing: 0 }
td,p { font-size: medium }
/style
pLorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit. Rerum,
cumque, pariatur, deserunt id impedit delectus at porro eum quaerat
officia atque eligendi tempora corporis necessitatibus quos minima
eaque dolorem eius quia nisi velit hic consequatur ea quis earum unde
consectetur!/p
tabletrtdLorem ipsum dolor sit./td/tr/table

I also posted a picture, http://i.imgur.com/WtmgiXQ.png, that shows what
happens using three main browsers (Chrome, Firefox and Opera) in the
leading mobile OS (Android)... I would test it with an iPhone if I had one,
but I think this is far from a niche question. I can't  make it happen in
all browsers since it doesn't affect desktop browsers, the Android 2.3
stock browser, etc. For convenience, here is a URL with such code:
http://81.4.104.136/fonts.html . I don't know what else to do in order to
present my question.

Thanks for replying.

Cheers,

Ezequiel
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-13 Thread MiB 

mar 13 2014 Ezequiel Garzón garzon.luc...@gmail.com:

 http://81.4.104.136/fonts.html 


I don’t see your issue in Android nor in IOS. Anyone else?
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-13 Thread Ezequiel Garzón 
 I don't see your issue in Android nor in IOS. Anyone else?

Thanks again for your reply. Now I'm really beginning to second-guess
myself! And here I was so convinced it had something to do with the
font boosting and inflation John Mellor refers to here [1]. I will ask
tomorrow a couple of friends to let me use their cell phones... I'm
beginning to fear this is a bug specific to my Galaxy Note II...

Thanks once more, and goodnight from Spain.

[1] https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-May/020819.html
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-13 Thread Yolanda van Nieuwkoop 
I see the problem on my new android galaxy tab3.
Yolanda
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-13 Thread Tom Livingston 


Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 13, 2014, at 5:32 PM, Ezequiel Garzón garzon.luc...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 
 
 You don't explain what you mean with same size -- in a valid HTML5
 document I wouldn't get that issue you claim -- nor do you post online code
 as HTML/CSS. It's pointless to debate what you think happened with a
 picture. Make it happen in all of our browsers too -- by posting validated
 code that illustrates your problem -- or talk about a specific known issue.
 I did post (almost) valid code in my first message, but here it goes again.
 Seeking validation I added a forgotten pair of forgotten TR tags, as well
 as !doctype, charset information and a title:
 
 !doctype html
 meta charset=utf-8
 titleInconsistent font size?/title
 style
 table { border-spacing: 0 }
 td,p { font-size: medium }
 /style
 pLorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit. Rerum,
 cumque, pariatur, deserunt id impedit delectus at porro eum quaerat
 officia atque eligendi tempora corporis necessitatibus quos minima
 eaque dolorem eius quia nisi velit hic consequatur ea quis earum unde
 consectetur!/p
 tabletrtdLorem ipsum dolor sit./td/tr/table
 
 I also posted a picture, http://i.imgur.com/WtmgiXQ.png, that shows what
 happens using three main browsers (Chrome, Firefox and Opera) in the
 leading mobile OS (Android)... I would test it with an iPhone if I had one,
 but I think this is far from a niche question. I can't  make it happen in
 all browsers since it doesn't affect desktop browsers, the Android 2.3
 stock browser, etc. For convenience, here is a URL with such code:
 http://81.4.104.136/fonts.html . I don't know what else to do in order to
 present my question.
 

At the 81.4 address, all the text is microscopic on my iPhone iOS 7.1 Safari.




 Thanks for replying.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Ezequiel
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-13 Thread Peter H. 
On a Motorola G phone with Android Kitkat the p text is quite large and the 
table text is tiny.

On an iPhone 4 all the text is the same size, and tiny.

Peter



El 13/03/2014, a las 23:31, Ezequiel Garzón escribió:

Thanks again for your reply. Now I'm really beginning to second-guess
myself! And here I was so convinced it had something to do with the
font boosting and inflation John Mellor refers to here [1]. I will ask
tomorrow a couple of friends to let me use their cell phones... I'm
beginning to fear this is a bug specific to my Galaxy Note II...

Thanks once more, and goodnight from Spain.

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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-13 Thread L. David Baron 
On Sunday 2014-03-09 21:52 +0100, Ezequiel Garzón wrote:
 Is this font boosting/inflation?

It sounds like it is.

It sounds like the thread has already uncovered some links about the
Chromium implementation.  There's some information about
Gecko's implementation here:
http://www.jwir3.com/blog/2012/07/30/font-inflation-fennec-and-you/
and the start of a spec draft for the behavior here:
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-size-adjust/

-David

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 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-12 Thread MiB 

mar 12 2014 22:07 Ezequiel Garzón garzon.luc...@gmail.com:

 I specified in my example td,p { font-size: medium }. I would hence expect 
 the font size in my very simple table and in my single paragraph to be the 
 same, whether I include a meta viewport tag or not. It turns out it only 
 happens in modern Android browsers when I include such a tag, even though 
 that's not the described purpose of the tag.
 
 And, in any event, my main question to you guys is if you don't think it is a 
 violation of CSS standards for browsers to render text in different sizes 
 even though it's supposed to be the same size throughout.

You don’t explain what you mean with same size” — in a valid HTML5 document I 
wouldn’t get that issue you claim — nor do you post online code as HTML/CSS. 
It’s pointless to debate what you think happened with a picture. Make it happen 
in all of our browsers too — by posting validated code that illustrates your 
problem — or talk about a specific known issue. 



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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-10 Thread Tom Livingston 
http://www.quirksmode.org/mobile/metaviewport/

This has a good explanation of what it's for.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 9, 2014, at 4:52 PM, Ezequiel Garzón garzon.luc...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Greetings to all,
 
 I can't figure out why a webpage as simple as [2] renders text with
 uniform size in desktop browsers (which I would expect), but like this
 [1] in Android browsers such as Chrome, Firefox and (the main version
 of) Opera. I mean... both P and TD are given font-size: medium! Isn't
 this a violation of CSS standards? I have (rather empirically) found
 that adding the line meta name=viewport
 content=width=device-width fixes the issue, though I thought this
 meta tag was meant to make the value of width more predictable under
 media queries.
 
 Is this font boosting/inflation? If so, how is this not violating CSS 
 standards?
 
 Thanks in advance for your advice.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Ezequiel
 
 [1] http://i.imgur.com/WtmgiXQ.png
 [2] Please consider the following:
 
 style
 table { border-spacing: 0 }
 td,p { font-size: medium }
 /style
 pLorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit. Rerum,
 cumque, pariatur, deserunt id impedit delectus at porro eum quaerat
 officia atque eligendi tempora corporis necessitatibus quos minima
 eaque dolorem eius quia nisi velit hic consequatur ea quis earum unde
 consectetur!/p
 tabletdLorem ipsum dolor sit./td/table
 
 (If the paragraph is a bit shorter the font size is the same in P as in TD.)
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-10 Thread Ezequiel Garzón 
 http://www.quirksmode.org/mobile/metaviewport/

 This has a good explanation of what it's for.

Thanks, Tom. Still, the word font cannot be found in that article,
and I again feel font size in particular is not supposed to be
affected by this meta tag. Besides, I'm still puzzled by the way
modern browsers consistently font-size declarations in the absence of
the meta viewport tag.

On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Tom Livingston tom...@gmail.com wrote:
 http://www.quirksmode.org/mobile/metaviewport/

 This has a good explanation of what it's for.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 9, 2014, at 4:52 PM, Ezequiel Garzón garzon.luc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Greetings to all,

 I can't figure out why a webpage as simple as [2] renders text with
 uniform size in desktop browsers (which I would expect), but like this
 [1] in Android browsers such as Chrome, Firefox and (the main version
 of) Opera. I mean... both P and TD are given font-size: medium! Isn't
 this a violation of CSS standards? I have (rather empirically) found
 that adding the line meta name=viewport
 content=width=device-width fixes the issue, though I thought this
 meta tag was meant to make the value of width more predictable under
 media queries.

 Is this font boosting/inflation? If so, how is this not violating CSS 
 standards?

 Thanks in advance for your advice.

 Cheers,

 Ezequiel

 [1] http://i.imgur.com/WtmgiXQ.png
 [2] Please consider the following:

 style
 table { border-spacing: 0 }
 td,p { font-size: medium }
 /style
 pLorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit. Rerum,
 cumque, pariatur, deserunt id impedit delectus at porro eum quaerat
 officia atque eligendi tempora corporis necessitatibus quos minima
 eaque dolorem eius quia nisi velit hic consequatur ea quis earum unde
 consectetur!/p
 tabletdLorem ipsum dolor sit./td/table

 (If the paragraph is a bit shorter the font size is the same in P as in TD.)
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-10 Thread Tom Livingston 
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 4:54 PM, Ezequiel Garzón
garzon.luc...@gmail.com wrote:
 http://www.quirksmode.org/mobile/metaviewport/

 This has a good explanation of what it's for.

 Thanks, Tom. Still, the word font cannot be found in that article,
 and I again feel font size in particular is not supposed to be
 affected by this meta tag. Besides, I'm still puzzled by the way
 modern browsers consistently font-size declarations in the absence of
 the meta viewport tag.


Maybe this? Although you mention FF...

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/text-size-adjust

I use -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;

HTH


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Front-End Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
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Re: [css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-10 Thread MiB 

mar 10 2014 21:54 Ezequiel Garzón garzon.luc...@gmail.com:

 I again feel font size in particular is not supposed to be
 affected by this meta tag


Feel? Incongruent with something (what?) would seem more appropriate. Case in 
point?
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[css-d] Do modern mobile browsers deliberately ignore font size?

2014-03-09 Thread Ezequiel Garzón 
Greetings to all,

I can't figure out why a webpage as simple as [2] renders text with
uniform size in desktop browsers (which I would expect), but like this
[1] in Android browsers such as Chrome, Firefox and (the main version
of) Opera. I mean... both P and TD are given font-size: medium! Isn't
this a violation of CSS standards? I have (rather empirically) found
that adding the line meta name=viewport
content=width=device-width fixes the issue, though I thought this
meta tag was meant to make the value of width more predictable under
media queries.

Is this font boosting/inflation? If so, how is this not violating CSS standards?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Cheers,

Ezequiel

[1] http://i.imgur.com/WtmgiXQ.png
[2] Please consider the following:

style
table { border-spacing: 0 }
td,p { font-size: medium }
/style
pLorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit. Rerum,
cumque, pariatur, deserunt id impedit delectus at porro eum quaerat
officia atque eligendi tempora corporis necessitatibus quos minima
eaque dolorem eius quia nisi velit hic consequatur ea quis earum unde
consectetur!/p
tabletdLorem ipsum dolor sit./td/table

(If the paragraph is a bit shorter the font size is the same in P as in TD.)
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