Re: [css-d] Frustration learning css for layout
At 14:40 +0200 27/10/05, Erik Visser wrote: So what I 'am asking myuself since then: - what things to find in the DTD - what things to find in the other part of the recommendation - what to find else where Is there some kind of guideline or something like that somewhere? Start from the css-d wiki http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ and move out from there http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsefulResources http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=GoodBooks From this point of view I guess the starting point of design should be: - not to get realized whats in my head - but rather the possibilities (without hacks) should be the starting point (off course with a certain design in mind) If hacks make possible what you dream of, then you should feel to use hacks. Just as long as you are aware of the implications of committing yourself to such a path. Maybe there are even places that list browser bugs and explain the work arounds (while avoiding hacks off course). Well, apart from conditional comments for IE or double-wrapping a box to overcome the box model, the only workarounds for the other browsers is to do it differently. Anyhow, css-d people, can this thread end now? We've done it to death a thousand times already. Unless of course someone has something spectacularly useful, insightful and practical to add ;) Alex css-d moderator __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] Frustration learning css for layout
CSS is clearly elegant and powerful, and I have little difficulty using it to style elements. And using divs for layout - which I'm new at - works pretty well designing for ONE browser. But trying to make the layout look right for 'all' browsers is driving me nuts (and I suspect I have company). I've read possibly hundreds of pages of code/hack advice, yet it seems that every fix I make breaks something else, and I often have no way to know if the advice I'm following is truly savvy or not. Are there any agreed-upon (or widely accepted) fundamentals (conditional comments vs. hacks; the 'best' box-model hack; best source for reliable hacks; top 3 issues to address, when and how to position divs, etc)? Without knowing or understanding some basics, I get the feeling that I'm building on quicksand, and thinking fondly of tables. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
RE: [css-d] Frustration learning css for layout
Without knowing or understanding some basics, I get the feeling that I'm building on quicksand, and thinking fondly of tables. I totally sympathize but you hit the nail on the head... to master any piece of web technology (or just about anything really) you've got to get a thorough understanding of the basics first, otherwise, yeah, it can be a time-consuming and frustrating learning process. Personally, I floundered for weeks trying to figure out CSS on a new site design and it wasn't until I sat down for the weekend and read a book on CSS that it all came together. But, if it helps, three practical suggestions: 1) make sure your HTML and CSS code validates, first and foremost 2) avoid hacks if you can; use them if there's no other way around them 3) take it step-by-step; try coding for a one-column site first and get that going on multiple browsers; then try adding a second column -- what happens when you float the column? or use relative positioning?; then try adding a heading and a footer; then code your navigation; etc. In other words, start simple and build upon success. Good luck and have fun with it! __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Frustration learning css for layout
David Agnew wrote: CSS is clearly elegant and powerful, and I have little difficulty using it to style elements. And using divs for layout - which I'm new at - works pretty well designing for ONE browser. But trying to make the layout look right for 'all' browsers is driving me nuts (and I suspect I have company). I think this article says it well... http://www.wait-till-i.com/index.php?p=172 I've read possibly hundreds of pages of code/hack advice, yet it seems that every fix I make breaks something else, and I often have no way to know if the advice I'm following is truly savvy or not. Lots of old and outdated articles around - check dates. Also a lot of relative new articles that repeat old stuff without checking and testing what works and what doesn't. CSS and browser-support is still very much a moving target, with constant browser-upgrades, and even seasoned web developers have their frustrated moments while trying to stay on top of it and separate the useful stuff from a maze of browser-bugs. Are there any agreed-upon (or widely accepted) fundamentals (conditional comments vs. hacks; the 'best' box-model hack; best source for reliable hacks; top 3 issues to address, when and how to position divs, etc)? Only one rule that most web developers seems to agree on: - design in Opera, Moz/Firefox, Safari first (in whatever order you like), and correct things in IE/win later. This makes sense when we look at actual standard support: http://nanobox.chipx86.com/browser_support.php The rest is basically 'personal preferences', where we often agree to disagree :-) (once we've got the hang of it). Without knowing or understanding some basics, I get the feeling that I'm building on quicksand, and thinking fondly of tables. Oh, and I left tables because they were too unstable... The basic is found on http://www.w3.org/, although it can be hard to find all bits and pieces in that maze of a site. This page should lead to some useful resources: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/learning regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
