Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Mark Richards wrote: Barney wrote: IE bug fixes of this nature have no historical precedent. Well, consider that IE7 no longer supports the * html hack. I'd call that a precedent. Mark IE7 is a different browser. If it did support the star hack, we'd be in terrible trouble - Microsoft themselves acknowledge that. The star hack has been kept for IE6. IE7 has to use different hacks. This is really not a problem at all - it is a blessing. david wrote: No, it's not. Because your typical business isn't concerned about the grand scheme of things. They're concerned about their little piece of it. There it IS significant. Yeah, I suppose the grand scheme of thing isn't of concern to anyone really (?). I'm not a businessman, so I can't really carry this on with any authority. However I am always hearing about people having immense difficulty justifying accessibility to business-minded clients, so I'm not so sure the sales people are all that obsessed with appealing to the tiniest of internet minorities. In any case, this is complete idle theory. You shouldn't take me too seriously on this and if you do, it should be off-list. david wrote: I disagree with that. They have every incentive to make things render weird in their browser - so people will look at their market share, say to themselves, Well, they're the big one, don't worry about the minority browsers and go around designing sites that only look good in IE. Then ordinary people using the minority browsers will eventually get tired of sites not working right in their browser - and decide they might was well use IE. I can't see how that's a disagreement. Throughout this thread I've been saying that Microsoft will keep their browsers acting significantly different to the standard so that people will design specifically for them. Ideally it'd be one or the other, but I design for both. Using hacks. Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Barney Carroll wrote: The star hack has been kept for IE6. IE7 has to use different hacks. While I agree with the above statement I just take the chance for some remark on IE7 in quirks mode. I wonder if this not has been mentioned before, but I could not find it on the CSS-wiki or elsewhere: The star hack still works for IE7 in quirks mode. Also, the new IE7 hacks only work for IE7 when in strict mode. So, regarding CSS IE7 in quirks mode works pretty much like IE6 in quirks mode. Rainer -- www.rohschnitt.de __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Rainer Wagener wrote: The star hack still works for IE7 in quirks mode. Also, the new IE7 hacks only work for IE7 when in strict mode. That's pretty serious. I haven't played with IE7 in quirks mode yet... I wonder how 'useful' this turn of events is considering IE7's rendering capabilities (particularly concerning the box model) in quirks? If it really is pretty much like IE6 in all respects, then we have little (or less, more to the point) to worry about. On the subject, not entirely CSS-related, but does anyone know of any .msi and/or .xpi extension that will discreetly tell you when your browser shifts to quirks mode? Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Barney Carroll wrote: If it really is pretty much like IE6 in all respects, then we have little (or less, more to the point) to worry about. At least it was good news for me when I found out. I had to adapt a rather complicated site that has to run in quirks mode (IE only) to IE7. And all I had to change was 'lt IE 7' to 'lte IE 7' in the CC. Regards, Rainer -- www.rohschnitt.de __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Barney Carroll wrote: Presumably if you had used the star hack, no changes would have been necessary (not a suggestion, geuine question!)? Exactly. In fact I used the star hack a lot and had only expressions and other invalid statements in my ie.css. When I was about to migrate all those star hacks to ie.css I realized that IE7 was misbehaving even more. After a short confusion I put everything back in place and feeded IE7 with all the invalid stuff it required so badly. Voila, just like daddy ;-) Regards, Rainer -- www.rohschnitt.de __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Presumably if you had used the star hack, no changes would have been necessary (not a suggestion, geuine question!)? [...] After a short confusion I put everything back in place and feeded IE7 with all the invalid stuff it required so badly. Voila, just like daddy ;-) For completeness: Running IE 7 in “quirks mode” is always an *option* - especially when we want a 'quick fix' for an old site... http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/quirksmode.html (No, I don't follow that route very often :-) ) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: (No, I don't follow that route very often :-) ) Why ever not? Hehehehe. Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
(No, I don't follow that route very often :-) ) Why ever not? Hehehehe. Sorry... I can't come up with a good reason :-) I /may/ find a few once I have gotten around to dissect IE7 completely. I haven't even downloaded IE7 yet, so in the mean time I'll give it a chance ;-) To keep it on track for this thread: IE7 has the same bug as earlier versions when it comes to '@import with media attribute', so it is easy to correct IE/win without disturbing other browsers - regardless of mode... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_12.html ...and it even works both ways since we can have 2 stylesheets under one @import, which makes it an almost perfect filter for IE7 and below vs. the other browsers. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: I /may/ find a few once I have gotten around to dissect IE7 completely. I haven't even downloaded IE7 yet, so in the mean time I'll give it a chance ;-) What, so this is all just idle theory?! :) ...and it even works both ways since we can have 2 stylesheets under one @import, which makes it an almost perfect filter for IE7 and below vs. the other browsers. I don't understand this... 2 stylesheets from the same import? How? And how do you use this to differentiate? Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
I /may/ find a few once I have gotten around to dissect IE7 completely. I haven't even downloaded IE7 yet, so in the mean time I'll give it a chance ;-) What, so this is all just idle theory?! :) Not exactly ;-) You know, I keep track of as many buggy cases where IE7 is involved - that ends up on lists like this, as I possibly can without using a database. IE7 uses the same engine as its predecessors - with most bugs intact although many /appear/ to be corrected, so it isn't too hard to understand what goes on when an IE7 bug appears. Friends across the web provide me with hints and screenshots, so I know whether it is I or IE7 that is most buggy. ...and it even works both ways since we can have 2 stylesheets under one @import, which makes it an almost perfect filter for IE7 and below vs. the other browsers. I don't understand this... 2 stylesheets from the same import? How? And how do you use this to differentiate? I provided a link, didn't I? (is my Norwenglish _that_ hard to understand :-) ) Ok, so I have the following in my main stylesheet... @import url(ag2c_con.css) screen; Now, go look for the stylesheet... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/styles/ag2c_con.css ...which is what the good browsers are looking for, and there isn't much there for them at the moment. Next: compare the proper stylesheet to the following... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/styles/url(ag2c_con.css)%20screen ...which is what IE/win is looking for, and actually gets. A bit more there... So, IE/win provides me with a way to differentiate. - I can add whatever I want to the first stylesheet, and IE/win won't see any of it. Perfect separation. - I can add whatever I want to the second stylesheet, and only Trident based browsers (that's IE/win and a few others) will ever see it. Again, perfect separation. Yes, I know this method is ugly, but it all makes perfect sense now, doesn't it? :-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: - I can add whatever I want to the second stylesheet, and only Trident based browsers (that's IE/win and a few others) will ever see it. Again, perfect separation. I didn't realise this (that there /was/ a second stylesheet there)... That's very astute - but the article didn't make it very clear that there was anything there... Yes, I know this method is ugly, but it all makes perfect sense now, doesn't it? :-) IE /is/ ugly. We're all make-up artists as far as I'm concerned. Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Ok, so I have the following in my main stylesheet... @import url(ag2c_con.css) screen; Now, go look for the stylesheet... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/styles/ag2c_con.css ...which is what the good browsers are looking for, and there isn't much there for them at the moment. Next: compare the proper stylesheet to the following... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/styles/url(ag2c_con.css)%20screen ...which is what IE/win is looking for, and actually gets. A bit more there... Am I glad I visited this list today? This is great stuff, thanks for sharing. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Subject: Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: - I can add whatever I want to the second stylesheet, and only Trident based browsers (that's IE/win and a few others) will ever see it. Again, perfect separation. I didn't realise this (that there /was/ a second stylesheet there)... That's very astute - but the article didn't make it very clear that there was anything there... Yes, I know this method is ugly, but it all makes perfect sense now, doesn't it? :-) IE /is/ ugly. We're all make-up artists as far as I'm concerned. Don't you think we get too hung up about IE6? Sure it is anything but perfect - hell no browser is! Our job is to make things that work across the board. So let's concentrate on what we can affect. IE6 is here for some while to come like it or not - or at least until IE7 confines it to history. Ian J Young Director IY e-Solutions IYES Ltd 39 Palmerston Place Edinburgh EH12 5AU Tel:+44 131 527 6070 Registered in Scotland no:208707. VAT no 804 5776 20 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/649 - Release Date: 23/01/2007 20:40 __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Barney Carroll wrote: IE /is/ ugly. We're all make-up artists as far as I'm concerned. I agree. Some use soft make-up brushes and conditional comments... ...I prefer to whack the buggers with their own bugs, and smash what's left with a huge CSS sledgehammer[1]. Doesn't matter all that much (to me) how we achieve it, but the result should at least be somewhat acceptable to visitors. regards Georg [1]http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_02.html -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Next: compare the proper stylesheet to the following... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/styles/url(ag2c_con.css)%20screen ...which is what IE/win is looking for, and actually gets. A bit more there... Am I glad I visited this list today? This is great stuff, thanks for sharing. It was too good to be true I guess... It works with a file name, but not with a path (with /) so it is not something that could really be used in real life. Or am I missing something? --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
~davidLaakso wrote: It was too good to be true I guess... It works with a file name, but not with a path (with /) so it is not something that could really be used in real life. Or am I missing something? I may be missing something, too-- but my site http://www.chelseacreekstudio.com/ , and all my pages linked from it in the left column, use the method Georg describes. It works extremely well. Granted it took me awhile to get my head wrapped around the concept :-) . Thanks David for making me look at this again. I was not using it *inside* the styleheet but in the document, that's why path was an issue. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
I just discovered a pure CSS way of separating the IEs (7 included) from FF and Opera (not sure about Safari). You can read about it here: http://frontend.blogsome.com/2007/01/23/the-flispide-of-star-html/ -- Chris Ovenden http://thepeer.blogspot.com Imagine all the people / Sharing all the world __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
I don't see why conditional comments pollute html - they are comments, nothing more, and pretty harmless- less dangerous than hacks that may be dependent on bugs that are fixed in future versions of whatever browser you are targeting? __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
The reason this hack rubs me the wrong way is that you're using the hack to pass a value to FF and other compliant browsers. IE7 gets the unblemished, unhacked version. It's the exact opposite of the way I usually work. (Also, calling Safari a minority browser is absolute foolishness. Konqueror or Epiphany *maybe* but definitely not Safari.) matt __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Matt Dawson wrote: (Also, calling Safari a minority browser is absolute foolishness. Konqueror or Epiphany *maybe* but definitely not Safari.) I think everything that isn't IE is a minority browser with regards to the human race. With regards to my web community generally, things are different. I think what you mean is we must be multiculturally-minded, and you shouldn't take the mick out of Safari for its differences. But it is a minority browser. Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Depends what you mean by minority browser. It's good to always consider your audience - one site I built had a Safari audience of 40%+. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Sorry, I only just found the original post. Seeing as we're in the
domain of hacks anyway (and I believe somebody said they'd far rather
hack for IE as opposed to hacking for everything else)...
I'm keen to re-iterate my IE# comma hack:
selector,{rules}
Everything apart from IE looks for another selector after the comma and
when that fails, drops the rule. IE isn't troubled though.
This is great because you can use nothing but CSS to cater for IE7, IE7
and the civilised world separately.
Regards,
Barney
Chris Ovenden wrote:
I just discovered a pure CSS way of separating the IEs (7 included) from FF
and Opera (not sure about Safari). You can read about it here:
http://frontend.blogsome.com/2007/01/23/the-flispide-of-star-html/
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Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
The real foolishness is arguing over browser market share and which browsers are worth supporting and what consitutes being in the minority, among other things. Any browser can be a minority browser, depending on the site in question. On my web site, for example, IE/Win (all versions) is a clear minority browser. On other sites, the story will be different. So let's concentrate on whether hacks are useful or not, please. Excellent point - I really need to keep reminding myself of that. I just wish I could get my boss to understand that it's a problem when page x renders like a busted up jigsaw puzzle in Firefox - especially when a full sixth of our total audience uses it. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
On 23/01/2007 16:47, Barney Carroll wrote:
selector,{rules}
This is great because you can use nothing but CSS to cater for IE7, IE7
and the civilised world separately.
This hack has been discussed by Jon Hicks before [1]; it's invalid,
whereas conditional comments are not.
[1]
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/providing-css-for-just-internet-explorer
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Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=minority On 1/23/07, Dave Goodchild [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Depends what you mean by minority browser. It's good to always consider your audience - one site I built had a Safari audience of 40%+. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ -- Chris Ovenden http://thepeer.blogspot.com Imagine all the people / Sharing all the world __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
On 1/23/07, Matt Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason this hack rubs me the wrong way is that you're using the hack to pass a value to FF and other compliant browsers. IE7 gets the unblemished, unhacked version. It's the exact opposite of the way I usually work. In general, I agree. In this case I was trying to find a workaround for firefox bug (which I really must make time to investigate properly). My workaround should have been harmless, but turned out not to be, due to IE stupidity. I am not particularly enamoured of the IE7-only hacks that are circulating, like this: http://www.brothercake.com/site/resources/reference/xxx/ while this one relies on deprecated XHTML: http://www.ibloomstudios.com/article7/ (Also, calling Safari a minority browser is absolute foolishness. Konqueror or Epiphany *maybe* but definitely not Safari.) It is used by a minority of web surfers, and (by the way) so is Firefox - they are minority browsers. I tend to cater to FF more than other minorities as it is the #2 browser by a very long way. Still, I wouldn't want to write CSS that would screw up in a perfect standards-compliant browser, should one exist. Variations in actual support, though, I may not have time to work around. In this particular case, as I tried to say at the end, any damage arising should be minimal. Graceful degradation, if you like. -- Chris Ovenden http://thepeer.blogspot.com Imagine all the people / Sharing all the world __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
On 1/23/07, Eric A. Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:22 AM -0500 1/23/07, Matt Dawson wrote: The reason this hack rubs me the wrong way is that you're using the hack to pass a value to FF and other compliant browsers. IE7 gets the unblemished, unhacked version. It's the exact opposite of the way I usually work. Yeah, same here. I can see where this hack might have utility, though-- in cases where you absolutely have to meet this browser support profile AND conditional comments are, for whatever reason, not an option. It can and does happen: I've had clients tell me that hacks in the CSS are okay but in the markup they aren't, and of course some people work (or play) in environments where they have control over the CSS but the markup is inviolate. That's pretty much the situation here. Most of the sites that I maintain is driven by a very complex content engine, and I have to raise tasks and generally bug people if I want to change the HTML. CSS I have complete control over. Which is not such a bad thing. I am provided with content, which I must then style to a design. How I do that is temporary and evolving; the content itself remains the same. Besides that, there is something very ugly about conditional comments; while I find some CSS hacks/filters aesthetically acceptable. -- Chris Ovenden http://thepeer.blogspot.com Imagine all the people / Sharing all the world __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Chris Ovenden wrote: I just discovered a pure CSS way of separating the IEs (7 included) from FF and Opera (not sure about Safari). You can read about it here: http://frontend.blogsome.com/2007/01/23/the-flispide-of-star-html/ So you don't want to pollute your HTML with IE's well-supported conditional comments, but you're willing to pollute your CSS with some newly-found hack instead? Seems unwise to me - CC are well documented and well supported by IE, while the IE-specific CSS interpretation that a hack depends on might go away in any future IE bug fix ... -- David [EMAIL PROTECTED] authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Dave Goodchild wrote: Depends what you mean by minority browser. It's good to always consider your audience - one site I built had a Safari audience of 40%+. Another thing to consider: a percentage by itself is meaningless. It must always be a percentage of something. Now if you swallow the bilge that many so-called monitoring sites report as percentages, you need to turn that into real numbers. If Konqueror has a share of 1%, and your target is the US, then you're talking about roughly 3 million potential visitors. That seems like a lot of potential customers to me! -- David [EMAIL PROTECTED] authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Chris Ovenden wrote: I am not particularly enamoured of the IE7-only hacks that are circulating, like this: http://www.brothercake.com/site/resources/reference/xxx/ while this one relies on deprecated XHTML: http://www.ibloomstudios.com/article7/ Those are hideous hideous hacks - they rely on partial CSS3 support (in incredibly convoluted ways), which is a completely entropic thing and depends on every affected browser's evolution. Clever fun for hobby hackers, but something even I would never consider as having practical applications. The star and comma hack have nothing to do with css functional support, and are respectively rooted in a) a different DOM and b) a different way of parsing syntax. These things are far more solid, and are unlikely to be changed in any hurry. Besides that, there is something very ugly about conditional comments; while I find some CSS hacks/filters aesthetically acceptable. I agree. There is something ever so sneaky about comments, and the supposed cleanliness of conditional comments + no hacks is one felt mostly by machines who are unaware of the tricks being played on them. The validator gives me warnings, but that's only because I'm being honest with it. Besides, if the validator only understood what was going on in browserland, I wouldn't be on the top of it's naughty list. I'd say They started it, miss. There is something a bit weird about people who proudly quote the automated validation process, fully aware there are things they are hiding from it. It's like a Microsoft QA session or something. Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
I think, at the end of it, all I can say is that this particular hack seemed like the best solution for this particular problem. I don't particularly recommend it (and I *do* want to know whether it's parsed by Safari or not), just thought it might be worth drawing people's attention to it in case others found it useful. Chris __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
david wrote: Another thing to consider: a percentage by itself is meaningless. It must always be a percentage of something. Now if you swallow the bilge that many so-called monitoring sites report as percentages, you need to turn that into real numbers. If Konqueror has a share of 1%, and your target is the US, then you're talking about roughly 3 million potential visitors. That seems like a lot of potential customers to me! Everybody is a 'potential customer' in the most forgiving of theories, David, but I'd be incredibly surprised if everyone in the US visited your website. The 'bilge' reported as percentages is still percentages... It is still as a fraction compared to the whole that you determine whether a demographic is a minority or not. 3 million potential customers are still a minority if you're talking about the population of the US. In the grand scheme of things, it's _still_ insignificant. So you don't want to pollute your HTML with IE's well-supported conditional comments, but you're willing to pollute your CSS with some newly-found hack instead? Seems unwise to me - CC are well documented and well supported by IE, while the IE-specific CSS interpretation that a hack depends on might go away in any future IE bug fix ... IE bug fixes of this nature have no historical precedent. That's not saying your statement is incorrect - the possibility is conceivable - but I'm still confident. I never tire of this childish optimism when I suggest that, if Microsoft were to periodically update their browser, they might focus on actually improving it before they get to the all-important task of stripping it of support for the hacks that were allowing things to display right in the first place. Contrary to popular belief, it is not Microsoft's primary goal to have everything render like sh!t on their software! Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Oh, and I do think *|html is kind of amusing. -- Chris Ovenden http://thepeer.blogspot.com Imagine all the people / Sharing all the world __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Chris Ovenden wrote: and I *do* want to know whether it's parsed by Safari or not What hack is this, Chris? I will remain on this Mac for approximately 5 more minutes... Chris Ovenden wrote: Oh, and I do think *|html is kind of amusing. As poetry, it's beautiful! Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Making their browser display like crap might not be a primary goal of Microsoft's but it seems that another primary goal that IS DEFINITELY NOT theirs is making their browser compliant... But it sure does look pretty! Mmike -Original Message- Contrary to popular belief, it is not Microsoft's primary goal to have everything render like sh!t on their software! Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
Barney Carroll wrote: david wrote: Another thing to consider: a percentage by itself is meaningless. It must always be a percentage of something. Now if you swallow the bilge that many so-called monitoring sites report as percentages, you need to turn that into real numbers. If Konqueror has a share of 1%, and your target is the US, then you're talking about roughly 3 million potential visitors. That seems like a lot of potential customers to me! Everybody is a 'potential customer' in the most forgiving of theories, David, but I'd be incredibly surprised if everyone in the US visited your website. They don't have to. I was just using it as an example of a base, the real number corresponding to 100%. Then you can turn values less than 100% into real numbers. At which point, you have some idea of how many potential customers you might be figuratively locking out of your shop. If you're able to turn even 1% of those 3 million customers into paying customers, while your competition is locking them out - your site has 3 more paying customers, which is pretty good for a lot of businesses ... The 'bilge' reported as percentages is still percentages... It is still as a fraction compared to the whole that you determine whether a demographic is a minority or not. 3 million potential customers are still a minority if you're talking about the population of the US. In the grand scheme of things, it's _still_ insignificant. No, it's not. Because your typical business isn't concerned about the grand scheme of things. They're concerned about their little piece of it. There it IS significant. So you don't want to pollute your HTML with IE's well-supported conditional comments, but you're willing to pollute your CSS with some newly-found hack instead? Seems unwise to me - CC are well documented and well supported by IE, while the IE-specific CSS interpretation that a hack depends on might go away in any future IE bug fix ... IE bug fixes of this nature have no historical precedent. That's not saying your statement is incorrect - the possibility is conceivable - but I'm still confident. I never tire of this childish optimism when I suggest that, if Microsoft were to periodically update their browser, they might focus on actually improving it before they get to the all-important task of stripping it of support for the hacks that were allowing things to display right in the first place. Contrary to popular belief, it is not Microsoft's primary goal to have everything render like sh!t on their software! I disagree with that. They have every incentive to make things render weird in their browser - so people will look at their market share, say to themselves, Well, they're the big one, don't worry about the minority browsers and go around designing sites that only look good in IE. Then ordinary people using the minority browsers will eventually get tired of sites not working right in their browser - and decide they might was well use IE. The MS philosophy of Embrace and extend is still active, and always has the goal of extending in ways that their competition do not or cannot match. -- David [EMAIL PROTECTED] authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] How to Filter Out Explorer 7 and Below
And there is the simple answer... I know I've been to my share of sites that break in other browsers. That's why I originally switched from NN to IE back in the mid 90s. Fortunately, I now know better but at least 99% of the public doesn't... Mike -Original Message- They have every incentive to make things render weird in their browser - so people will look at their market share, say to themselves, Well, they're the big one, don't worry about the minority browsers and go around designing sites that only look good in IE. Then ordinary people using the minority browsers will eventually get tired of sites not working right in their browser - and decide they might was well use IE. -- David __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
