Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
Kathy Wheeler wrote: On 09/03/2008, at 6:40 AM, Karl Hardisty wrote: A comparison of usage before and after is generally a good idea. If a site design changes, and suddenly a certain type of browser/platform combination drops off markedly, there's probably a good reason. However it may also pay to check overall traffic trends - if traffic does not drop off, then perhaps those recalcitrant old browser users may have finally decided to upgrade? On the other hand, if you pick up more traffic than you lose ... It's nice to say you support ie5.5, netscape 4 or whatever, but with the security vulnerabilities inherent in the older unsupported browsers is it really a good idea to encourage users not to upgrade? Are you really doing them a favor? And what browser would my dear old retired parents (still using a 128MB Windows98 PC) use? BTW, Windows98 has paradoxically become more secure - a lot of Windows worms and viruses can no longer run on it. ;-) -- David [EMAIL PROTECTED] authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
On 09/03/2008, at 6:40 AM, Karl Hardisty wrote: A comparison of usage before and after is generally a good idea. If a site design changes, and suddenly a certain type of browser/platform combination drops off markedly, there's probably a good reason. However it may also pay to check overall traffic trends - if traffic does not drop off, then perhaps those recalcitrant old browser users may have finally decided to upgrade? On the other hand, if you pick up more traffic than you lose ... It's nice to say you support ie5.5, netscape 4 or whatever, but with the security vulnerabilities inherent in the older unsupported browsers is it really a good idea to encourage users not to upgrade? Are you really doing them a favor? Regards, KathyW. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
It's all about the user data, baby! We've got no people using anything lower than IE6, so I test IE6, IE7, Firefox, Safari, Opera, and that's about it. However, I'd really like to know how to test for those several WebTV users we have visit our site every month (I didn't even know it still existed until we were reviewing the logs!) Tim AIM: TymArtist http://www.timpalac.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
On 7/03/2008, at 8:29 AM, david wrote: Karl Hardisty wrote: On 6/03/2008, at 7:03 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: As far as IE goes, I test for IE6 and IE7, nothing lower. My data shows no visitors ever coming to my sites with anything less than IE6. And if they do, well, it's just time for an upgrade. I'm not jumping through that many hoops to accommodate so few IE 5 users. And I make liberal use of conditional comments for IE. In the years to come, as standards and browser capabilities change, conditional stylesheets are much easier to change than hacks, which are no future-proof, either. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:css-d- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Story Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 12:36 PM To: 'CSS' Subject: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for It seems that my perception of in the wild browsers was a bit off. As I consider IE 5 for mac to be deceased, however it seems to be alive and kicking for some. So I just wanted to get an idea of what the oldest browser you are currently testing for is? And how are you targetting them? Hacks, conditional comments, other techniques? -Mark I have recently updated our policies regarding this, after much examining of logs of sites we've developed. For IE it is now 6 upward as well, with a check to ensure it renders ok in 5.5, and that it is readable, if not reference rendering. In fact, the only mention of IE below 6 was in a discussion forum, for which the lone user of Mac IE5.2 on OS 9 could change the theme to another which rendered fine, so no issue there. Keep in mind this is more representative of the type of sites we do, than the internet as a whole, and the ultimate answer is for the developer to examine logs, and their own ideas of what they're comfortable with. And remember this about logs: If you design a site that doesn't work in browser X, after awhile, you won't have anyone using browser X visit your site *because your site doesn't work.* Then you'll pat yourselves on the back and say, See - no one uses browser X. ;-) -- David [EMAIL PROTECTED] authenticity, honesty, community __ David - you raise a very good point. This is why it is so important to pay special attention to logs immediately after a site update. Usage patterns can highlight issues that cursory testing of browsers during development may have missed. A comparison of usage before and after is generally a good idea. If a site design changes, and suddenly a certain type of browser/platform combination drops off markedly, there's probably a good reason. Karl mothership - http://mothership.co.nz __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
Rob Emenecker wrote: And remember this about logs: If you design a site that doesn't work in browser X, after awhile, you won't have anyone using browser X visit your site *because your site doesn't work.* Then you'll pat yourselves on the back and say, See - no one uses browser X. ;-) ... says the gentleman from Hawaii that supports the Lynx browser! I test with it, because it is a very good way to experience a site the way a visitor using a screenreader might. Or someone trying to use a site who can only navigate via keyboard due to motor control difficulties. But I'm not a person who'll ever be accused of being a kewl graphic designer. The principle is true of any browser, regardless of how old or new it might be. If you unnecessarily erect obstacles to visitors, they will turn away. They'll tell their friends about it. So their friends won't visit, either. And it spreads with each visitor you disappoint. -- David [EMAIL PROTECTED] authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
I agree with everything your saying David. I was simply having one of those crap-tacular days and was trying to inject some witty sarcasm into the thread. It wasn't meant as a 'poo poo, why do you worry about that old text browser?' comment. The exact opposite is true, we should worry about it for the very reasons you state. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
On 3/6/08, Mark Story [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hernly, Lee wrote: Netscape 4.X here... When testing with an older browser such as netscape 4.x are you looking for identical results to current browsers. Or just 'good enough' results? identical is impossible with Netscape 4. In fact, so much modern CSS crashes that browser that the only safe method would be to serve unstyled content. (achieved by importing all the stylesheets). I would imagine that many of the remaining NN4 users would surf with Javascript disabled (which has the effect of disabling stylesheets from the user end) -- Richard Grevers, New Plymouth, New Zealand Dramatic Design www.dramatic.co.nz __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
Mark Story wrote: So I just wanted to get an idea of what the oldest browser you are currently testing for is? Lynx. And how are you targetting them? Hacks, conditional comments, other techniques? None needed. -- David [EMAIL PROTECTED] authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
Karl Hardisty wrote: On 6/03/2008, at 7:03 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: As far as IE goes, I test for IE6 and IE7, nothing lower. My data shows no visitors ever coming to my sites with anything less than IE6. And if they do, well, it's just time for an upgrade. I'm not jumping through that many hoops to accommodate so few IE 5 users. And I make liberal use of conditional comments for IE. In the years to come, as standards and browser capabilities change, conditional stylesheets are much easier to change than hacks, which are no future-proof, either. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:css-d- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Story Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 12:36 PM To: 'CSS' Subject: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for It seems that my perception of in the wild browsers was a bit off. As I consider IE 5 for mac to be deceased, however it seems to be alive and kicking for some. So I just wanted to get an idea of what the oldest browser you are currently testing for is? And how are you targetting them? Hacks, conditional comments, other techniques? -Mark I have recently updated our policies regarding this, after much examining of logs of sites we've developed. For IE it is now 6 upward as well, with a check to ensure it renders ok in 5.5, and that it is readable, if not reference rendering. In fact, the only mention of IE below 6 was in a discussion forum, for which the lone user of Mac IE5.2 on OS 9 could change the theme to another which rendered fine, so no issue there. Keep in mind this is more representative of the type of sites we do, than the internet as a whole, and the ultimate answer is for the developer to examine logs, and their own ideas of what they're comfortable with. And remember this about logs: If you design a site that doesn't work in browser X, after awhile, you won't have anyone using browser X visit your site *because your site doesn't work.* Then you'll pat yourselves on the back and say, See - no one uses browser X. ;-) -- David [EMAIL PROTECTED] authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
And remember this about logs: If you design a site that doesn't work in browser X, after awhile, you won't have anyone using browser X visit your site *because your site doesn't work.* Then you'll pat yourselves on the back and say, See - no one uses browser X. ;-) ... says the gentleman from Hawaii that supports the Lynx browser! __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
As far as IE goes, I test for IE6 and IE7, nothing lower. My data shows no visitors ever coming to my sites with anything less than IE6. And if they do, well, it's just time for an upgrade. I'm not jumping through that many hoops to accommodate so few IE 5 users. And I make liberal use of conditional comments for IE. In the years to come, as standards and browser capabilities change, conditional stylesheets are much easier to change than hacks, which are no future-proof, either. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Story Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 12:36 PM To: 'CSS' Subject: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for It seems that my perception of in the wild browsers was a bit off. As I consider IE 5 for mac to be deceased, however it seems to be alive and kicking for some. So I just wanted to get an idea of what the oldest browser you are currently testing for is? And how are you targetting them? Hacks, conditional comments, other techniques? -Mark __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
Netscape 4.X here... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Story Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 12:36 PM To: 'CSS' Subject: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for It seems that my perception of in the wild browsers was a bit off. As I consider IE 5 for mac to be deceased, however it seems to be alive and kicking for some. So I just wanted to get an idea of what the oldest browser you are currently testing for is? And how are you targetting them? Hacks, conditional comments, other techniques? -Mark __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
On 6/03/2008, at 7:03 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: As far as IE goes, I test for IE6 and IE7, nothing lower. My data shows no visitors ever coming to my sites with anything less than IE6. And if they do, well, it's just time for an upgrade. I'm not jumping through that many hoops to accommodate so few IE 5 users. And I make liberal use of conditional comments for IE. In the years to come, as standards and browser capabilities change, conditional stylesheets are much easier to change than hacks, which are no future-proof, either. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:css-d- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Story Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 12:36 PM To: 'CSS' Subject: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for It seems that my perception of in the wild browsers was a bit off. As I consider IE 5 for mac to be deceased, however it seems to be alive and kicking for some. So I just wanted to get an idea of what the oldest browser you are currently testing for is? And how are you targetting them? Hacks, conditional comments, other techniques? -Mark __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ I have recently updated our policies regarding this, after much examining of logs of sites we've developed. For IE it is now 6 upward as well, with a check to ensure it renders ok in 5.5, and that it is readable, if not reference rendering. In fact, the only mention of IE below 6 was in a discussion forum, for which the lone user of Mac IE5.2 on OS 9 could change the theme to another which rendered fine, so no issue there. Keep in mind this is more representative of the type of sites we do, than the internet as a whole, and the ultimate answer is for the developer to examine logs, and their own ideas of what they're comfortable with. We still use conditional comments for IE6 for functionality as far as transparent PNGs and a few other small aspects go, but the 'ie' stylesheet has become much shorter than it used to be. Karl mothership - http://mothership.co.nz __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
I test for SIMILAR results on Firefox2, ie6, and ie7 on pc along with safari on the mac and Konq on linux I test for 'acceptible' for ie5.5 on pc, opera, and ie5.5 on the mac __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
Virtualization is great for this sort of thing; however, specifically what I do is. Opera and Netscape The browsers allow for multiple versions coexisting on the same machine. Firefox I use a virtualization program for different older browser; however, there are tips online for getting two separate installations to work at the same time. It's relatively painless. Internet Explorer I download the Multiple Ies program. Safari I've noticed tends to behave similar enough to Opera that it doesn't need to be tested as much (except Javascript). Generally I test Opera 9+, Netscape 7+, IE5.5+, Firefox 1+, Safari 1+ which makes up the overwhelming majority of users that I care about. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
I test for SIMILAR results on Firefox2, ie6, and ie7 on pc along with safari on the mac and Konq on linux I test for 'acceptible' for ie5.5 on pc, opera, and ie5.5 on the mac Ditto here. Basic content can be viewed testing for anything less than IE6, FF2, Safari 1.2, or Konquerer (can't recall version). On the lower end stuff, we just run in through browsershots.org and/or browsercam.com for legible deprecation (not layout) on these older ones. Rob Emenecker @ Hairy Dog Digital www.hairydogdigital.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Oldest Browser Currently Testing for
Hernly, Lee wrote: Netscape 4.X here... When testing with an older browser such as netscape 4.x are you looking for identical results to current browsers. Or just 'good enough' results? -Mark __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
