date:20031109

Title: Independent News
-Caveat Lector-



http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=461953host=3dir=70

Case for war confected, say top US officials
Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
09 November 2003
An unprecedented array of US intelligence professionals, diplomats and former 
Pentagon officials have gone on record to lambast the Bush administration for 
its distortion of the case for war against Iraq. In their view, the very 
foundations of intelligence-gathering have been damaged in ways that could take 
years, even decades, to repair.
A new documentary film beginning to circulate in the United States features 
one powerful condemnation after another, from the sort of people who usually 
stay discreetly in the shadows - a former director of the CIA, two former 
assistant secretaries of defence, a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia and even 
the man who served as President Bush's Secretary of the Army until just a few 
months ago.
Between them, the two dozen interviewees reveal how the pre-war intelligence 
record on Iraq showed virtually the opposite of the picture the administration 
painted to Congress, to US voters and to the world. They also reconstruct the 
way senior White House officials - notably Vice-President Dick Cheney - leaned 
on the CIA to find evidence that would fit a preordained set of conclusions.
"There was never a clear and present danger. There was never an imminent 
threat. Iraq - and we have very good intelligence on this - was never part of 
the picture of terrorism," says Mel Goodman, a veteran CIA analyst who now 
teaches at the National War College.
The case for accusing Saddam Hussein of concealing weapons of mass 
destruction was, in the words of the veteran CIA operative Robert Baer, largely 
achieved through "data mining" - going back over old information and trying to 
wrest new conclusions from it. The agenda, according to George Bush Senior's 
ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Chas Freeman, was both highly political and 
profoundly misguided.
"The theory that you can bludgeon political grievances out of existence 
doesn't have much of a track record," he says, "so essentially we have been 
neo-conned into applying a school of thought about foreign affairs that has 
failed everywhere it has been tried."
The hour-long film - entitled Uncovered: The Whole Truth About the Iraq War - 
was put together by Robert Greenwald, a veteran TV producer in the forefront of 
Hollywood's anti-war movement who never suspected, when he started out, that so 
many establishment figures would stand up and be counted.
"My attitude was, wow, CIA people, I thought these were the bad guys," Mr 
Greenwald said. "Not everyone agreed on everything. Not everyone was against the 
war itself. But there was a universally shared opinion that we had been misled 
about the reasons for the war."
Although many elements in the film are not necessarily new - the forged 
document on uranium sales from Niger to Iraq, the aluminium tubes falsely 
assumed to be parts for nuclear weapons, the satellite images of "mobile 
biolabs" that turned out to be hydrogen compression facilities, the 
"decontamination vehicles" that were in fact fire engines - what emerges is a 
striking sense of professional betrayal in the intelligence community.
As the former CIA analyst Ray McGovern argues with particular force, the 
traditional role of the CIA has been to act as a scrupulously accurate source of 
information and analysis for presidents pondering grave international decisions. 
That role, he said, had now been "prostituted" and the CIA may never be the 
same. "Where is Bush going to turn to now? Where is his reliable source of 
information now Iraq is spinning out of control? He's frittered that away," Mr 
McGovern said. "And the profound indignity is that he probably doesn't even 
realise it."
The starting point for the tarnishing of the CIA was a speech by 
Vice-President Cheney on 26 August 2002, in which he told the Veterans of 
Foreign Wars in Nashville that Saddam was reconstituting his nuclear weapons 
programme and was thus threatening to inflict "death on a massive scale - in his 
own region or beyond".
According to numerous sources, Mr Cheney followed up his speech with a series 
of highly unorthodox visits to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, in which 
he badgered low-level analysts to come up with information to substantiate the 
extremely alarming - but entirely bogus - contents of his speech.
By early September, intelligence experts in Congress were clamouring for a 
so-called National Intelligence Estimate, a full rundown of everything known 
about Iraq's weapons programmes. Usually NIEs take months to produce, but George 
Tenet, the CIA director, came up with a 100-page document in just three 
weeks.
The man he picked to write it, the weapons expert Robert Walpole, had a track 
record of going back over old intelligence assessments and reworking them in 
accordance with the wishes of a specific

[CTRL] Iraqi Scientist Not Working on Bombs

-Caveat Lector-

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=540ncid=736e=7u=/ap/20031108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_death_of_a_scientist

Middle East - AP

AP: Iraqi Scientist Not
Working on Bombs

Sat Nov 8, 1:08 PM ET

By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special
Correspondent
BAGHDAD, Iraq - An Iraqi scientist killed in
the U.S. invasion and now linked by arms hunter David Kay to possible
nuclear weapons research was working on an advanced gun, not atomic bombs,
fellow physicists say.
They and eyewitnesses also say Khalid Ibrahim
Sa'id was killed not when he tried to "run a roadblock," as asserted by
Kay, but when a U.S. tank crew blasted his civilian car without warning on
an open street.

These accounts of the physicist's research and death, provided by 10
Iraqis and supported on key points by U.N. arms inspectors, challenge a
core element of Kay's testimony Oct. 2 to congressional committees in
Washington.

The Associated Press asked Kay's Iraq (news
- web
sites) Survey Group to better detail its allegations about the late
scientist, but the ISG repeatedly declined. The U.S. weapons hunters also
have not disclosed any basis for such allegations to U.N. inspectors,
although they had been expected to do so under U.N. resolutions.

President Bush (news
- web
sites) endorsed Kay's work again Oct. 28, telling reporters his chief
weapons investigator "continues to ferret out the truth." But Sa'id's
longtime colleagues and friends sharply disagree, calling what they read
in Kay's report "lies."

"Sa'id is a good catch for David Kay because he is silent. He can't
defend himself," said nuclear scientist Sabah Abdul Noor, a friend for 30
years.

Those challenging the American's allegations include physicists known
not to have supported Saddam Hussein (news
- web
sites)'s ousted Baath Party regime or its work in the 1980s on
nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

Kay's mixed CIA (news
- web
sites)-military Iraq Survey Group, staffed with weapons specialists,
was deployed here to try to substantiate claims made by the Bush
administration to justify the March invasion assertions that Baghdad
still possessed prohibited chemical and biological arms and had resumed
its nuclear weapons program.

In his Oct. 2 interim report, Kay acknowledged that his teams had found
no such weapons or nuclear program.

Instead, he shifted the focus to Iraqi "aspirations," "intentions" and
"capabilities." In his 700-word nuclear section, that focus fell largely
on Khalid Sa'id.

Kay told congressmen that beginning around 2000, Sa'id "began several
small and relatively unsophisticated research initiatives that could be
applied to nuclear weapons development." His report did not describe that
research, however, and said, "These initiatives did not in and of
themselves constitute a resumption of the nuclear weapons program."

It then added that "regretfully" the scientist was killed on April 8,
as U.S. troops entered Baghdad, "when the car he was riding in attempted
to run a Coalition roadblock."

"To begin with, this is a lie," Noor said.

He and other scientist friends said they learned how Sa'id died from
his family and others, an account corroborated by three eyewitnesses in AP
interviews.

That morning, the friends recounted, the Nissan Patrol utility vehicle
carrying Sa'id, his driver and another man turned onto the main avenue of
south Baghdad's Khadra district, for the physicist to check on his empty,
shuttered home. They apparently were unaware that advancing U.S. tanks had
reached Khadra, and a tank stood at the far end of the avenue.

"Anything that moved, they would shoot," said Mohammed Hassan, 36, an
avenue resident who said he saw Sa'id's vehicle approaching. "People were
running madly here and there with their children. People on foot were shot
here," another witness, Jamal Abbas, 40, told the AP as he stood on the
Khadra curbside.

People tried to signal Sa'id's car and another one to stop, but it was
too late, the witnesses said. From a few hundred yards away, they said,
the tank crew fired its cannon at both vehicles.

At least one shell struck the Nissan and turned it into an inferno,
killing the driver and third man, and fatally wounding Sa'id, they said.
He

[CTRL] The Nuptials of Boykin and Wolfowitz (Saul Landau)

-Caveat Lector-

http://www.counterpunch.com/landau11082003.html

November 8,
2003
The Nuptials of Boykin and
Wolfowitz
The Bride Wore
Black
By SAUL LANDAU
"This is a first," a colleague moaned, claiming that the
country has fallen into the hands of a religious cult. "Look," he directed me,
"at the crusade-like rhetoric emanating from high circles about the Iraq effort,
while we get dosed with supposedly Christian doctrines of enforcement from
Attorney General John Ashcroft." He meant the 2001 order from the AG to cover a
bare breast on a statue in the Department of Justice as well as his Puritanical
diktats that decry abortion and exalt the death penalty.
"Look at history," I reminded my colleague. "Until the
late 17th Century, a theocracy ruled Massachusetts Bay Colony. Those Puritans
believed in witches and the Devil. They also fostered aggressive conversion of
the heathen, so that all might hear the `revealed word.' God had instructed them
to build a `Zion in the Wilderness,' so He could issue in the Kingdom of the
Apocalypse, or what the current holy rollers call The Rapture. The Puritan
mission to create a virtuous society worthy of God's redemption placed an urgent
burden on their pious shoulders. Since God had chosen these Puritans to do His
mission, the stoic New Englanders could not afford to indulge in sentimentality
or other forms of weakness. They tried to eliminate the Devil's presence by
killing his witches after fair trials of course.
"Today," I argued, "the religious or ideological
descendents of the Puritan elite, the modern crusaders, repeat similar messages
from the pulpit and even from the Pentagon." I offered as an illustration Deputy
Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence General William G. Boykin, who
called a dark spot on a photograph in Mogadishu, Somalia `a manifestation of
evil.'
In speeches Boykin refers to the "Christian army," waging
holy war against the "idol" of Islam's false God, and the "spiritual battle"
against "a guy named Satan" who "wants to destroy us as a nation, and he wants
to destroy us as a Christian army." This does not sound like the emissions
coming from the mouth of rational Jewish neo conservatives like Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz. With
completely secular logic, Wolfy explained to Vanity Fair (May 2003) that "For
bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction,
because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."
Now, imagine an intellectual marriage between these two
men! Does it seem bizarre that ultra zany Christian theologians wearing military
uniforms marry Jewish neo-con ideologues? In the 21st Century, this union has
not replaced the family, but it has invaded the space traditionally occupied by
foreign policy strategists.
One could see the invasion of Iraq as the nuptial ceremony
for this bizarre matrimony. The war itself, over in weeks, symbolized the
honeymoon period when both sides of this crusading union talked about
"liberating Iraq" and bringing democracy to the Middle East." This act of
"liberation" destroyed with missiles and bombs Iraq's infrastructure. The
neo-con/Christian fundamentalist merger received the blessings of President
George W. Bush when he declared victory who could forget his jet landing on the
USS Abraham Lincoln? In his May 1 self-congratulatory speech he also indirectly
applauded those who had brought him to lead the country into a pre-emptive
attack against Iraq.
Then, even as US troops began to rebuild Iraq, the
consequences of an unjust war began to intrude. The very neo-cons and Christians
who had predicted that Iraqis would welcome our soldiers as liberators, had to
face the harsh truth that many Iraqis deeply resented the invasion and the
occupation of their country. By the end of October more than 200 US soldiers
have died, more than a thousand wounded, more than a dozen suicides; thousands
more have fallen seriously ill and been evacuated. Bush's declaration of victory
might even have echoed harshly in the ears of Wolfowitz himself as mortars
struck the hotel that lodged him in Baghdad where he had been busy issuing
optimistic statements. As Ramadan commenced at the very end of October, suicide
bombers struck four targets in Baghdad and hit other Iraqi targets as well.
Wolfowitz looked shaken. The fanatics on the enemy side seemed even more
committed than Wolfy and his new theological partner.
The peace and order promised by the president as his newly
married advisers assured him did not materialize. Instead, the numbers of
attacks on US occupation forces, including those by suicide bombers, has grown.
The army's morale has declined. A Member of Congress told me that National
Guardsmen from his district call him regularly to complain about as many as
twenty attacks a day on US patrols. Guardsmen's wives also complain, he said,
that their husbands did not join the National Guard to become an occupation

[CTRL] Parallels Between Iraq and Vietnam (Georgie Anne Geyer)

-Caveat Lector-



http://www.uexpress.com/printable/print.html?uc_full_date=20031104uc_comic=gg


  
  

   
  VIETNAM AND IRAQ HAVE MORE SIMILARITIES THAN 
  DIFFERENCESCHICAGO -- To 
  my immense surprise, I recently ran into the American scholar who, for 
  many correspondents in Vietnam, offered the most fair-minded analysis of 
  the war. 
  Suddenly, there was Gerald "Gerry" Hickey at the 
  Chicago Public Library, a little grayer after 35 years, but still much the 
  same, with a big smile on his face and a welcome "Hello!" 
  I remembered well how Gerry, then the Rand Corp.'s top 
  man in Vietnam, had meticulously explained for us the cultures and 
  behavior of highland tribes such as the Montagnards, but also the Viet 
  Cong and the "pro-American" Saigon government. 
  "And now we're doing the same thing all over again," 
  he said as we talked about Iraq. "First, we suffer from the same 
  invincible ignorance about Iraq that we suffered over Vietnamese culture. 
  Second, in Vietnam we set the military impact with no concern about our 
  effect on South Vietnamese culture. By the time we left in 1975, they were 
  just exhausted. They were just tired out -- and so was I. 
  "It is so sad now that I can see the same mistakes 
  being made in Iraq. The GIs busting down the doors, breaking into homes, 
  doing everything wrong. But, you know something," he went on, sadness 
  outlining his voice, "I'm shocked at much of what we are seeing in Iraq: 
  The Americans are much crueler than they were in Vietnam. Remember, when 
  American correspondents found American troops burning down houses -- that 
  was remarkable then; today it's the norm." 
  Gerry and I talked a long time that day, mulling over 
  our common experiences, wondering primarily why the United States can't 
  ever pause to analyze a country correctly, and above all comparing the two 
  conflicts. 
  Despite the myriad voices in the press insisting, 
  "Iraq is not a Vietnam!" the indisputable fact is that, if you consider 
  the passions and principles applied there, it really IS another Vietnam. 
  Among the causes for the war are obscurantist theories about foreign 
  threats that have little basis in reality; civilians at the top who play 
  with the soldiers they have never been; and the underlying lies that give 
  credence to special interests (the Bay of Tonkin pretense in Vietnam, the 
  supposed weapons of mass destruction in Iraq). 
  In Vietnam, we were following the bizarre notion of 
  the "domino theory," the idea that a communist Vietnam would mean that all 
  of Southeast Asia would fall to communism. The Johnson administration 
  refused to realize that it was a colonial war, and that in colonial wars, 
  people fight forever. 
  With Iraq, the second Bush administration accepted the 
  idea, perfervidly pushed by civilian neoconservatives, that Iraq was the 
  center of terrorism, the cause of 9/11 and an immediate threat, ignoring 
  the Greek chorus of voices warning against such intellectual, military and 
  moral folly. 
  Curiosly, in both cases it was civilian ideological 
  fanatics in the Pentagon, enamored of American technology and with no 
  knowledge of history or culture, and not the U.S. military, who pressed 
  for the wars. (It was Robert McNamara and his "whiz kids" then; now it's 
  Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle and others.) 
  Perhaps the old American maxim of civilian control of 
  the military might be changed, with what we are seeing, to military 
  control of the civilians. 
  Other comparisons of the two wars: 
  Today, one hears a doublespeak that almost echoes the 
  communists of the old days. In Vietnam, it was, "We had to destroy the 
  village to save it." With Iraq, it is President Bush's statement of last 
  week that "the more successful we are on the ground, the more these 
  killers will react!" 
  Today, it's called "Iraqization." In Vietnam, it was 
  called "Vietnamization" -- late-hour attempts to make everything look as 
  though it's working. As military historian William Lind wryly remarked to 
  me of Iraqization, "It presumes that because you pay someone, he's yours." 

  In 1967 in Vietnam, I spent a lot of time interviewing 
  officers and troops all over the country, and I wrote a series of articles 
  that my paper, the Chicago Daily News, headlined with: "The GI Who Asks 
  'Why?'" Today's GIs are beginning to ask that same question. 
  America needs to look seriously at these two wars and 
  analyze why it repeatedly gets involved in painful and costly faraway 
  conflicts. Why, when we could with little effort be a great example for 
  mankind, do we

[CTRL] Another American Casualty: Credibility (Zbigniew Brzezinski)

Title: washingtonpost.com: Another American Casualty: Credibility
-Caveat Lector-



Probably it is Micronesia that is responsible for driving the United 
States into a state of isolation from the rest of the world -- that's the 
ticket. The Micronesian lobby is reputed to be quite influential in the 
Bush administration and the Congress, although voicing such thoughts is usually 
met withmorally outragedcomplaints about anti-Micronesianism.

  Today it is the United States that finds itself alone. In the last 
  three weeks, there were two votes on the Middle East in the U.N. General 
  Assembly. In one, the vote was 133 to 4, and in the other, it was 144 to 4 -- 
  the United States, Israel, the Marshall Islands and Micronesia. Japan and all 
  of our NATO allies, including Great Britain and the so-called "new" Europe, 
  voted with the majority. 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14360-2003Nov7?language=printer













 washingtonpost.com 

Another American Casualty: Credibility 
By Zbigniew BrzezinskiSunday, November 9, 2003; Page 
B01 

Forty years ago, an important emissary was sent to France by a beleaguered 
president of the United States . It was during the Cuban missile crisis 
and the emissary was a tough-minded former secretary of state, Dean Acheson. His 
mission was to brief French President Charles de Gaulle and solicit his support 
in what could become a nuclear war involving not just the United States and the 
Soviet Union but the entire NATO alliance and the Warsaw Pact.
At the end of the briefing, Acheson said to de Gaulle, "I would now like to 
show you the evidence, the photographs that we have of Soviet missiles armed 
with nuclear weapons." The French president responded, "I do not wish to see the 
photographs. The word of the president of the United States is good enough for 
me. Please tell him that France stands with America."
Would any foreign leader today react the same way to an American emissary 
sent abroad to say that country X is armed with weapons of mass destruction that 
threaten the United States? It is unlikely. The recent conduct of U.S. foreign 
policy, by distorting the threats facing America, has isolated the United States 
and undermined its credibility. It has damaged our ability to deal with issues 
in North Korea, Iran, Russia and the West Bank. If a case ever needs to be made 
for action against a truly imminent threat, will any nation take us seriously? 

Fifty-three years ago, after the Soviet-sponsored assault by North Korea on 
South Korea, the Soviet Union boycotted a resolution in the U.N. Security 
Council for a collective response to North Korea's act. That left the Soviet 
Union alone in opposition, stamping it as a global pariah.
Today it is the United States that finds itself alone. In the last three 
weeks, there were two votes on the Middle East in the U.N. General Assembly. In 
one, the vote was 133 to 4, and in the other, it was 144 to 4 -- the United 
States, Israel, the Marshall Islands and Micronesia. Japan and all of our NATO 
allies, including Great Britain and the so-called "new" Europe, voted with the 
majority. 
The loss of U.S. international credibility and the growing U.S. isolation are 
aspects of a troubling paradox: American power worldwide is at its historic 
zenith, but American global political standing is at its nadir. Maybe we are 
resented because we are rich, and we are, or because we are powerful, and we 
certainly are. But I think anyone who thinks that this is the full explanation 
is taking the easy way out and engaging in a self-serving justification. 
Since the tragedy of 9/11, our government has embraced a paranoiac view of 
the world summarized in a phrase President Bush used on Sept. 20, 2001: "Either 
you are with us or you are with the terrorists." I suspect that officials who 
have adopted the "with us or against us" formulation don't know its historical 
origins. It was used by Lenin to attack the social democrats as anti-Bolshevik 
and to justify handling them accordingly. This phrase is part of our 
policymakers' defining focus, summed up by the words "war on terrorism." War on 
terrorism reflects, in my view, a rather narrow and extremist vision of foreign 
policy for a superpower and for a great democracy with genuinely idealistic 
traditions.
Our country suffers from another troubling condition, a fear that 
periodically verges on blind panic. As a result, we lack a clear perception of 
critical security issues such as the availability to our enemies of weapons of 
mass destruction. In recent months, we have experienced perhaps the most 
significant intelligence failure in American history. That failure was fueled by 
a demagogy that emphasizes worst-case scenarios, stimulates fear and induces a 
dichotomous view of world reality.
It is important to ask ourselves, as citizens, whether a world power can 
provide global leadership on the basis of fear and anxiety. Can we really 
mobilize support,

Re: [CTRL] Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners...

2003-11-09 Thread Zuukie

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



As I said earlier the Israeli 
men were supposedly only seen acting in the reported way by one woman who wants 
to remain anonymous. If, as has been written, others in our government 
knew even parts of what was to happen, my guess is thatinvestigators 
wanted to know what, if anything, the Israelis knew about how the picture came 
together and what they knew about the Arabs involved. In chasing down all 
of thestories about the Israelis and the moving company, there is much 
speculation and little fact becausethose involved in covert operations, no 
matter from which country, don't go blabbing to newspapers.  


  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy 
  Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  William ShannonSent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 9:12 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Five Israelis 
  were seen filming as jet liners...http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707Five 
  Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on 
  September 11, 2001 ...Were they part of a massive spy ring which 
  shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating 
  terrorist attack on the USA? Neil Mackay 
  investigatesTHERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, 
  but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As 
  the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed 
  the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before 
  their eyes.Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, 
  even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis  and at least 
  two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the 
  equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.Their discovery and arrest that morning 
  is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the 
  Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that 
  Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved 
  from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as 
  pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. 
  And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli 
  cause.After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli 
  Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would 
  mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: Its very good. Then he corrected 
  himself, adding: Well, its not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy 
  [for Israel from Americans].If Israels closest ally felt the 
  collective pain of mass civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists, then 
  Israel would have an unbreakable bond with the worlds only hyperpower and an 
  effective free hand in dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been 
  murdering its innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 
  2001. Its not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first 
  spotted the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. 
  Shes insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her 
  apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the Twin 
  Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions across the 
  world, she watched the horror of the day unfold.As she gazed at the 
  burning towers, she noticed a group of men kneeling on the roof of a white van 
  in her parking lot. Heres her recollection: They seemed to be taking a 
  movie. They were like happy, you know ... they didnt look shocked to me. I 
  thought it was strange.Maria jotted down the vans registration and 
  called the police. The FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all 
  points bulletin put out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The 
  cops traced the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called 
  Urban Moving.Police Chief John Schmidig said: We got an alert to be 
  on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and 
  writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State 
  Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and 
  down.By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted 
  near New Jerseys Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were 
  five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at 
  their heads and handcuffed.In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of 
  foreign passports and a pair of box cutters  the concealed Stanley Knife-type 
  blades used by the 19 hijackers whod flown jetliners into the World Trade 
  Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the 
  men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the 
  background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the 
  devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop

[CTRL] Rothschilds Conduct Red Symphony

2003-11-09 Thread William Shannon

-Caveat Lector-
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1235

Rothschilds Conduct "Red Symphony"
Henry Makow Ph.D.

Incredible and bizarre as it sounds, humanity is indeed the victim of a diabolical conspiracy.

War, depression and genocide in the past century were not accidental or inevitable but the result of a malevolent design.

Shocking evidence is a 1938 Stalinist police (NKVD) interrogation of a founder of the Communist International, Christian G. Rakovsky, 65, who was facing the firing squad for plotting to overthrow Stalin.

The 50-page transcript of his interrogation, dubbed "The Red Symphony," was not meant to become public. It confirms that the Rothschild-Illuminati planned to use Communism to establish a world dictatorship of the super rich.

This is perhaps the most extraordinary political document in modern history. It reveals why, to widespread consternation, Stalin made a pact with Hitler in 1939, opening the way for World War Two.

Christian Rakovsky was a veteran Communist insider. Born Chaim Rakeover in 1873, he studied medicine in France before becoming a revolutionary. He was the leader of a terror group that attacked government officials. www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSrakovsky.htm

In 1919, Lenin put him in charge of the Soviet Ukraine government. He successfully kept the area for the Bolsheviks during the Civil War. Stalin appointed him Russian ambassador to Paris in 1925,

Rakovsky belonged to the powerful Trotskyite faction that took their orders from the Rothschilds. Many of this group were shot in Stalin's 1937 Communist Party purge.

Midnight Interrogation

Thus the circumstances of the midnight interrogation Jan. 26, 1938 were very dramatic.

What could Rakovsky say that would save his life?

Rakovsky appears to use the tactic of "deceiving with the truth." He wins trust by revealing the truth but leaves some of it out. He tries to impress Kus'min that he and Trotsky represent an invincible power he calls the "Capitalist-Communist Financial International."

He confirms that the "revolutionary movement" was designed to enlist support by pretending to serve mankind's moral and collective ideals. The real aim, however, is to divide society, undermine established authority and create totalitarian rule.

"Revolution" really means, "overturning" Western civilization.

"Christianity is our only real enemy since all the political and economic phenomena of the bourgeois states are only its consequences," Rakovsky says. (Griffin, p. 264)

Peace is "counter-revolutionary" since it is war that paves the way for revolution.

Rakovsky refers to the Illuminati as "they" or "them." He claims he does not know them but I suspect he does.

He explains that the "Illuminati" is a Masonic secret society dedicated to Communism. Significantly, its founder Adam Weishaupt took the name from "the second anti-Christian conspiracy of that era, gnosticism." (249)

How This Gripping Account Surfaced

The interrogator was one of Stalin's cleverest agents, Gavriil Kus'min known as "Gabriel." Apart from him and a hidden sound technician, a doctor Jose Landowsky was the only other person present.

Conscripted by the NKVD to help "loosen the tongues of detainees," Dr. Landowsky was sickened by the many tortures he witnessed.

The interrogation of Rakovsky, however, was cordial. Dr. Landowsky doubts if the mild euphoric he put in Rakovsky's drink had much effect.

The interrogation, conducted in French lasted from midnight until 7 a.m. After, Kus'min ordered Landowsky to translate the interview into Russian and make two copies.

The content was so mind boggling that Landowsky made an additional carbon for himself. "I am not sorry that I had the courage for this," he wrote. (279) (The Bolsheviks had shot Landowsky's father, a Tsarist colonel, during the 1917 revolution.)

A Spanish volunteer later found the manuscript on Landowsky's dead body in a hut on the Petrograd front during World War Two. He took it back to Spain where it was published as "Sinfonia en Rojo Mayo." in 1949.

A person with the nickname "Yamaguchi" has posted the first half of "Red Symphony" on the Internet at http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/symphony/red1.html

The whole transcript was published in English in 1968 as "The Red Symphony: X-Ray of Revolution." You can find it in Des Griffin's "Fourth Reich of the Rich." (1988) I recommend this book.

Revelations

Rakovsky gives his interrogator an astonishing inside view of modern history in order to prove that his sponsors control the world.

"Money is the basis of power," Rakovsky says, and the Rothschilds manufacture it thanks to the banking system.

The "Revolutionary Movement" was an attempt by Meyer Rothschild and his allies to protect and extend this monopoly by establishing a New World Order using the "revolutionary movement."

According to Rakovsky, "The Rothschilds were not the treasurers, but the chiefs of that first secret Communism...Marx and

[CTRL] Zionist Intel Ops Within Pentagon

2003-11-09 Thread William Shannon

-Caveat Lector-
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/November/7%20o/Iraq%20How%20did%20we%20get%20here%20John%20Anast.htm

Iraq: How did we get here?
John Anast
Al-Jazeerah, 11/7/03

As the battle rages in Iraq what do we really know about the reasons for the war? The weapons of mass destruction "WMD" have become harder to identify and as mysterious as UFO sightings. In fact a disturbing aspect of the hunt for WMD was the admission by Mr. Kay, who has no academic background in any scientific discipline, was that no "program" could be found supporting the claim that Iraq had attempted to reconstitute a nuclear capability. As investigations continue within the US Congress as to the nature and quality of intelligence provided to decision makers within the Bush Administration, a few well placed leaks and a few scant news articles are beginning to identify what actually happened. It seems that a small group of Zionists created and operated their own intelligence service within the Pentagon which came to be known as the Office of Special Plans "OSP" run by Douglas Feith, Mr. Shulski and Mr. Luti, under the supervision of Mr. Wolfowitz. According to a July 17, 2003 story in the Guardian by Julian Borge which is an expose on OSP, Israeli's were admitted to the Pentagon on occasion without having to show identification or sign-in, allegedly as directly authorized by Mr. Feith. The now defunct OSP is at the center of the storm. It is suspected of rewriting Intelligence as well as providing information known to be false directly to decision makers in the Bush Administration without being vetted or reviewed by seasoned intelligence analysts at CIA.

The Guardian in the same article also reported that OSP had "parallel ad hoc" sister organization within Sharon's office in Israel -- a separate function from " Mossad " . It was later leaned from sources in the UK that a similar office was operating out of 10 Downing Street. The speculation is that Zionist agents in the US, Israel and the United Kingdom under the direction of Israel, directly and through surrogates, planted false intelligence in official Pentagon channels for use by the Bush Administration as a means to deceive the US Congress and the American people. There is further speculation that the Zionist agents were all too eager to circumvent US law and had no hesitation to provide false information to the US Congress. One may note that last statement is not surprising given some of these very same Zionist agents were convicted in the United States of that very offense in the past. It does not take much to assert that they placed the interests of Israel well above the interests of America. CIA reports resolving that Iraq would become a quagmire fuelled by Iraqi resistance to occupation were promptly discarded by the Bush Administration in favor of the ridiculous notion that the US Army would be welcomed as liberators. There is currently an effort emanating from the Vice President's office and from within the Pentagon to wholly blame CIA for faulty intelligence, as the "perpetrators" are attempting to find solace in another lie for the ghastly loss of American lives in Iraq and the economic toll yet to be felt in America. Sources mentioned that the task of rationalizing the intelligence product was well beyond the capability of Dr. Rice at the National Security Council "NSC" who could not handle the task. It may well be that Rice, et al seem more interested in covering-up their errors than in setting forth exactly how their Zionist mentors subverted and co-opted their work.

Some were surprised that these same Zionist fanatics went as far as to out a CIA operative in the press as an alleged slap against her husband Ambassador Wilson. More likely it was a salvo meant to stop similar leaks in an effort to cover-up the connections between prominent members of the Bush Administration, NSC staff and the Israeli operation to deceive the President of the United States, the Congress and the American people, which was apparently not that difficult. It should be no surprise to anyone that Israeli agents in America would disclose information harmful to American interests when their actions are directly responsible for the deaths of over 350 (and rising) US military personnel in Iraq (as well as 1,000 wounded) and have thus far cost the US over $150 Billion (and counting). I have heard it said that within the Administration there is a strategy to wait until after the 2004 presidential election to take action quietly against some people at Pentagon and within the White House itself. It seems that they do not wish to appear "stupid" before the American people.

As to the real reason for the war in Iraq, well that is all too easy to answer. The Iraq war which is spiraling out of control was actually about oil, but not oil destined for the United States. Israel, through deception, instigated the conflict in an attempt to gain

[CTRL] D.C. Priests, Mount Cashel case, child abuse/Capturing the Friedmans

2003-11-09 Thread Smart News

-Caveat Lector-
"Extrapolating from the study's 3,500 respondents to the U.S. population as a whole - using NORC's stringent and narrow definition of abuse - this suggests that at least 23.8 million adult American women and 16.7 million men were sexually abused as children."

"In his eagerness to make his viewers empathize with the Friedmans' humanity, he (Jarecki, Capturing the Friedmans) stacked the deck to conceal significant evidence of their guilt."

scroll for news articles

two from L Moss Sharman D.C. Archdiocese Issues Abuse Data - 26 Priests Identified as Likely Molesters By Caryle Murphy Washington Post 11/7/03 "The Washington Archdiocese said yesterday that 26 of its priests have been credibly accused of child sexual abuse over the past 56 years and that it has spent $4.3 million on victim compensation, legal fees and other expenses stemming from those cases. About 85% of the incidents of abuse occurred before 1980, and the last known incidents occurred in 1990, said archdiocesan spokeswoman Susan Gibbs. She said that none of the 26 priests is still in active ministry." http://www.washingtonpost.com

Mount Cashel case nears close - Court to resolve last legal conflicts blocking victims' compensation by Douglas Todd, Vancouver Sun, 11/7/03 "...scores of Newfoundland orphans abused in the 1970s by Christian Brothers are hoping they will finally get their hands on money they believe could brighten their difficult lives...It was more than 13 years ago that a dozen members of the Christian Brothers' order were convicted of abusing the boys. As well, 16 months has passed since a court case ended with two Vancouver-area Catholic schools agreeing to pay $19 million in damages to the orphansThe legal battle waged by 81 Newfoundland victims to win financial compensation from the order has dragged on for more than seven years. The victims' ordeal was exacerbated, Byrne says, when Vancouver College and St. Thomas More Collegiate joined with the Vancouver archdiocese to go to court to argue the assets of the two Christian-Brother-run schools should not be used to compensate Mount Cashel's orphans." http://www.canada.com/search/story.aspx?id=83ce9d19-58ff-4d85-97d3-4bcf6ad5058e

This article describes abuse.

Beyond the Bogeyman - Psychotherapy Networker - November/December 2003 We need to develop a more mature perspective on the child molester By Katy Butler Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders By Anna C. Salter Basic Books. 272 pp. ISBN: 0-4650-7172-4 "The Social Organization of Sexualitythe landmark 1994 study of American sexual practices spearheaded by the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) and University of Chicago professor Edward Laumannfound that 17 percent of its adult female informants and 12 percent of its male informants said they'd been touched sexually (90 percent genitally) by at least one adult before they turned 14. Extrapolating from the study's 3,500 respondents to the U.S. population as a whole - using NORC's stringent and narrow definition of abuse - this suggests that at least 23.8 million adult American women and 16.7 million men were sexually abused as children." "In his eagerness to make his viewers empathize with the Friedmans' humanity, he (Jarecki) stacked the deck to conceal significant evidence of their guilt. He filmed one high-school buddy vouching for Jesse. But he didn't mentionperhaps because it would have damaged the movie's dramatic uncertainty19-year-old Ross Goldstein, a schoolmate of Jesse's who helped out at the computer class and admitted that he, too, had participated in sexually abusing some of the younger boys. Nor did Jarecki include footage of a Geraldo! program in which Jesse, by phone from prison, pled for a reduced sentence and described his own prior sexual abuse by his father. Jarecki has said in interviews that Goldstein didn't want to be included and that he couldn't obtain the Geraldo! tape." http://www.psychotherapynetworker.org/book_reviews.htm
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:]

[CTRL] Armed Mexican Soldiers Said To Cross Into US

-Caveat Lector-


Armed Mexican Soldiers 
Said To Cross Into US 
By Chad Groening
11-7-3
(AgapePress) - A volunteer organization dedicated to protecting the
private property rights of American citizens says there is a full-scale
war waging on the nation's southern border. One Arizona rancher says he
has had Mexican soldiers on his property.
Ranch Rescue is calling it Operation
Thunderbird. Beginning on November 15, the property rights group
will dispatch volunteers to an Arizona ranch to help a landowner who has
been plagued by individuals crossing over illegally from Mexico onto his
property. He has property directly
adjacent to the international border, explains Ranch Rescue
spokesman Jack Foote, and he has been having to deal with drug
smugglers [and] people smugglers.
According to Foote, the landowner also has seen several
incursions of Mexican soldiers on his property in recent months. He
has encountered armed, uniformed Mexico soldiers on his property three
times in the last two months, Foote says. They were very
heavily armed. He adds that shots
have been fired from Mexico at people on the property. There is a
full-scale war about to break out on our southern border, particularly on
this one property where we're sending our volunteers, Foote
says. The Ranch Rescue spokesman says his
group intends to document the incursions and apprehend those involved.
Operation Thunderbird is slated to continue into April 2004. In addition
to videotaping the incursions, volunteers will be asked to build what the
group calls physical obstacles to ongoing vandalism, and to
counter physical threats to the landowner's family.
© 2003 AgapePress all rights
reserved.
-iNFoWaRZ
While the troops are overseas fighting the phoney war on terror, terror
is coming in through the back door.
And the traitors in the US Government are looking the other way.


www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceânot soap-boxingâplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'âwith its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsâis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Bush: Global Revolution

-Caveat Lector-

Bush:  The War on Terror is now become a Global Democratic Revolution.
Gee, isn't that what Karl Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky wanted?
I guess the phrase Global Democratic Revolution sounds better than New World Order.
With our wonderful Global Revolutionary Leader, GW Red Bush, it is guaranteed that 
you haven't heard the last of Let's Roll.
-

Bush Sets Out Mideast Democracy Strategy
By James
Harding The Financial Times - UK 11-8-3

[Bush announced] a 'new policy' which will no longer excuse or accommodate 
dictatorships in the Muslim world.

WASHINGTON -- President George W. Bush on Thursday recast the argument for America's 
intervention in Iraq as part of a global democraticc revolution, announcing a new 
policy which will no longer excuse or accommodate dictatorships in the Muslim world.

In a sweeping speech to the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington, Mr Bush 
portrayed himself as a champion of liberty setting out a forward strategy of freedom 
in the Middle East.

His rhetoric was intended to echo that of Ronald Reagan, the former president who 
mandated the endowment, when confronting the Soviet Union 20 years ago.

Mr Bush was speaking as a memorial service was held in Iraq for the 15 US soldiers 
killed when a Chinook helicopter was shot down by insurgents last Sunday.

He made no mention of weapons of mass destruction or the alleged threat Saddam Hussein 
posed to US national security, but instead emphasised the importance of American 
sacrifice to the spread of freedom.

Iraqi democracy will succeed and that success will send forth the news from Damascus 
to Tehran that freedom can be the future of every nation, Mr Bush said.

The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed 
event in the global democratic revolution.

Drawing a line under 60 years of western nations excusing and accommodating the lack 
of freedom in the Middle East, Mr Bush expanded on the transformationalist agenda 
embraced by Condoleezza Rice, his national security adviser.

In August, Ms Rice set out US ambitions to remake the Middle East, an argument 
championed by neo-conservatives eager to use American power to advance democracy and 
free markets.

The White House did not elaborate on Mr Bush's implicit criticism of half a century of 
US foreign policy in the Muslim world, nor the suggestion that fellow democracies in 
Europe had coddled cruel dictatorships in the region. But, he said: The United States 
has adopted a new policy, a forward strategy of freedom in the Middle East.

Mr Bush's speech came just before he signed legislation authorising $87bn further 
funding for Iraq and Afghanistan, the largest US programme of financial aid since the 
post-second world war Marshall Plan.

Just over seven months since Mr Bush stood on a US aircraft carrier and addressed 
troops beneath a banner that said Mission Accomplished, the White House is making 
renewed efforts to defend the pre-emptive war launched by Mr Bush.

Opinion polls show that a minority of Americans now approve of Mr Bush's handling of 
the Iraq war and nearly two thirds of people polled by ABC News last month said the 
levels of US casualties were unacceptable.

Mr Bush made swift mention of other regions of the world where democracy is yet to 
take root, such as China. But he emphasised the democratic progress in the Middle 
East, citing countries such as Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Morocco and Jordan.

The Saudi government is taking first steps toward reform, including a plan for 
gradual introduction of elections, Mr Bush said, in a brief reference to one of the 
most contentious countries on the US foreign policy agenda.

© Copyright The Financial Times Ltd 2003.

-
-iNFoWaRZ
If your job was to convince the public that a self-admitted Global Revolutionary 
Communist was really a Conservative, you would probably end up addicted to 
narcotics.
Right Rush?

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceânot soap-boxingâplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'âwith its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsâis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL]

[CTRL] Jackbooted Thugs Terrorize School Children

-Caveat Lector-

Gun-Wielding Cops Conduct Drug Sweep At School




Drug Sweep Finds No Drugs

POSTED: 3:52 p.m. EST November 7, 2003
A drug sweep Wednesday morning at a South Carolina school has some parents and 
students questioning police tactics.

 Video
[]
[] []
[]
[]Police Draw Guns In Charlotte School []
[]
[]
[]
Surveillance video from Stratford High School in Goose Creek shows 14 officers, some 
with guns drawn, ordering students to lie the ground as police searched for marijuana. 
Students who didn't comply with the orders quickly enough were reportedly handcuffed.

Police didn't find any criminals in the armed sweep, but they say search dogs smelled 
drugs on a dozen backpacks.

The school's principal defended the dramatic sweep.

We received reports from staff members and students that there was a lot of drug 
activity, said George McCrackin. Recently we busted a student for having over 
300-plus prescription pills. The volume and the amount of marijuana coming into the 
school is unacceptable.

The parents of some students who were subjected to the sweep disagree.

I was just upset knowing they had guns put to their head and a canine was barking at 
them and about to bite somebody, said Latonia Simmons, the parent of one student. It 
was awful.

http://www.ksat.com/news/2620644/detail.html

There is also a poll on the website, so far 34 percent of your disgusting pathetic 
moronic braindead fellow Americans think this a good idea.  Yeah, it's really a good 
idea for cops to bust into schools a stick a gun in your kids face and cuff 'em.

---
-iNFoWaRZ
These cops, these criminal terrorists in Darth Vader suits, need to spend some time 
behind bars to think about their violation of the oath they took to uphold and defend 
the Constitution.
Then, slap hundreds of lawsuits on the bastards, break the town's treasury, and take 
away the homes, and cars, and property, and pet dogs of these scumbags that would 
actually participate in such a un-American tactic.  Then jail the principal as a 
reminder to any other government official that when you violate the rights of 
Americans you will go to jail for a long long time.

AmeriKa...it's beginning to look a lot like a Third World Police State and the 
Brownshirts are coming for your kids.

Meanwhile... get your kids out of the Government Schools.

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Warning To The World About The New America

-Caveat Lector-

Warning To The World  About The New America
By Baldknobber
11-7-3

For years I have told Americans to wake up and see what was happening to their country 
before it was too late for America. Now it is time for me to tell the world to wake up 
about America before it is too late for them.

I have been aware of a disturbing change in the US government for the last 12 years. 
It seems that the world has slept through this change and does not realize what 
America has become. I will outline some major problems, go into specific subjects and 
cite examples of how America has changed, yes, we are indeed no longer free. Much of 
what is written in this report is from my own personal experience.

This is a warning to the world to watch out for the new America. America is no longer 
the moral guardian you knew it to be, in recent years America has become a tyrant 
unprecedented.

Control Of Media

The American press can no longer be trusted. When the Government passed the 
Telecommunications act of 1996, it allowed consolidation of the media and control of 
all information received by the people to a small group of sources. This showed itself 
as large media mergers and virtually all information was soon controlled by the same 
small group of people. In June of 2003 additional legislation was passed which now 
allows all the news to be controlled from a single source. The day I typed this I 
called CN8 live, a national cable news program to speak on the air. They took my 
personal information including name, address and phone number. They then hung up and 
called me back to verify that I really was at that address. They then said something 
that scared me half to death, They said that if I did not stay on subject and say what 
I told them I would say that they would notify the authorities. I am someone who has 
called news programs frequently in the past, and that never happene
 d bef
ore. Itís obviously a new policy. So much for a free press.

Police Brutality

I know a man who manages a store close to where I live. His brother has a sixteen year 
old boy and seven year old girl. Outside his brotherís house some police were beating 
a man who was laying down on the road and not fighting back. The sixteen year old 
opened the window and shouted at the police, telling them that they were doing too 
much and that they did not need to beat the man so hard.

They did not let up, instead they kicked in the door to the house and assaulted the 
boy. So now they were beating up the man on the street and beating up the kid in the 
house. The seven year old girl ran to the officer who kicked in the door and tried 
pulling him off her brother. The officer pushed her away so hard that she hit the wall 
and broke her arm. It never made the news. This is not an isolated incident, it is the 
new America. Contrast this with the glossy happy-go-lucky police are great and 
accountable for their actions media coverage on shows like Real TV and Cops, there 
is much more to the truth than we are allowed to see.

In the past I had heard stories like this from strangers but did not believe them 
until I heard it from someone I knew well. Indeed the foreign governments who have 
started to call the US a police state are much more correct than they realize. I am 
waiting for them to have the courage to say it without retracting comment.

Asset Forfeiture

America has a new policy towards personal property called asset forfeiture. This is 
the act of confiscating property without a trial. The way it works is this: The police 
accuse you of a crime and take whatever they say you had in your possession when the 
alleged crime was committed. This could be a vehicle such as a boat or car, or a 
computer, or even your house. You have to go to court to prove your innocence to get 
it back, and if you win your case you have to pay a return fee which is usually 50% of 
the property value. If they take a car that was worth 12,000 you will have to pay 
6,000 to get it back. If you cannot afford the 6,000 they will sell it at auction to 
recover their funds. If you have a loan or mortgage on the property they sell at 
auction, you are still obligated to pay the bank for what you no longer have.

This happens frequently and the evidence is easy to find. Go to Google and type the 
search term US government auctions or asset forfeiture auction or pick any state 
and add the word auction. The auctions are everywhere, selling property seized from 
people who were often judged by the courts innocent.

If you are a property owner with tenants in a 200 room apartment complex and one of 
the tenants gets arrested in an apartment for possession of drugs or stolen property, 
or committing a crime such as calling a prostitute to his room, the city or state can 
take the apartment building away from the owner who was not involved in any way and 
say that the property committed the crime and therefore needed to be taken. 
Confiscation of large

Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to Sean

2003-11-09 Thread Zuukie

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/25378_comment.php

Yes, I read the story but thought I would be 
polite and not comment on it, particularly after looking at the stories carried 
by the paper it came from. The above site is a series of posts on the 
topic that I would recommend as a response to you.Knowledgeable 
individuals have spent time gathering much information that should be reviewed 
by others before they jump to conclusions based on the slippery story you 
posted.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean 
  McBrideSent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:56 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to 
  Sean-Caveat Lector- 
  
  Zuukie,
  
  I posted in this group several days ago the 
  full text of an article which mentions three reasons, apart from the testimony 
  of one woman, to believe that the Israeli spies in question celebrated 
  the destruction of the World Trade Center.
  
  The article is here:
  
   http://ww1.sundayherald.com/print37707
  
  Are you able to read the article and to 
  identify the three reasons I am alluding to?
  
  Let me be of assistance:
  
  1. There were also fresh pictures of the men 
  standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. 
  One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated 
  buildings, like a fan at a pop concert.
  
  2. An employee of Urban Moving said his 
  co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. I 
  was in tears, the man said. These guys were joking and that bothered me. 
  These guys were like, Now America knows what we go through. 
  
  
  3. Their lawyers and the embassy say their 
  ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands 
  died were due to youthful foolishness. 
  
  Comments?
  
  In an earlier post, you dismissed the reports 
  of Odigo advance warnings not being of significance. 
  Why?
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Zuukie 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 
11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies 
to Sean
-Caveat Lector- 

I tried posting my answers to your 
questions three times, and only on the third time did my post appear. 
You have given no sources that can be checked for your information. 
Since you made the original allegations, I would suggest you post sources 
and then I will give sources in rebuttal. Saying that numerous 
government investigators have viewed the video is not a valid comment unless 
a source is given. Your entire first post gave no sources other than 
your opinion based on whatever you read. A scholar you are not. 
A propagandist is what you 
are.

  
  -Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
  Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean 
  McBrideSent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:51 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Third try Replies to 
  Sean-Caveat Lector- 
  
  Mr. Rarey,
  
  The Israeli spies hung themselves with 
  their own video, which has been viewed by numerous government 
  investigators. We are not reliant on the testimony of a single woman 
  in this case to know how the Israelis behaved.
  
  What is there about Israel which is capable 
  of dimming the minds of even highly intelligent people? Look at what 
  it has done to "geniuses" like Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle, who 
  assured us that invading Iraq would be a cakewalk and that Iraqi oil would 
  pay for the entire venture. Instead, Americans are now paying 
  hundreds of billions of dollars for the privilege of being trapped in a 
  bottomlesshellhole in the Mideast. We are being RUINED by the 
  brilliant advice of pro-Israel zealots.
  
  It is highly revealing that the best you 
  can come up with on this topic is the nitpicking post below. Your 
  instinct whenever the subject of Israel comes up is to attack critics of 
  Israel, usually in a way that is embarrassing to yourself and which 
  undercuts your reputation for being a fearless conspiracy 
  investigator. Michael Ruppert fell into the same trap, although he 
  has shown some efforts recently to correct the 
  problem.
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Jim 
Rarey 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 
2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try 
Replies to Sean
-Caveat Lector- 



Prudy,

I don't follow your reasoning 
if that's what it is. You say no (we don't have the word of just one 
woman?) we have the written words of the police officers who

[CTRL] Information from Janes

2003-11-09 Thread Zuukie

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Things are heating up between 
China and Japan. The European Union is forming its own first strike force, 
an interesting position as Muslims grow in population there. Pressure is being 
put on Israel to sign its death warrant as a Jewish country byconcessions 
to the Arabs. A folk curse on someone is "May you live in 
interesting times." 

Some headlines from a 
leading intelligence service:A 
tsar is bornWhat Russia's leader plans for the short term.[Jane's 
Foreign Report - first posted to www.foreignreport.com - 4 November 
2003]Iran: caving in or buying time?Although an escalating 
international crisis over Iran's nuclear programme appears to have been averted, 
or at least postponed, many key questions remain unanswered about the Islamic 
Republic's activities and the intentions of its leadership. JID reviews the 
latest developments.[Jane's Intelligence Digest - first posted to http://jid.janes.com - 4 November 2003] Palestinian militants target 
USAIn the months ahead, the detonation of a massive bomb underneath a US 
diplomatic vehicle travelling in the Gaza Strip is likely to be regarded as the 
beginning of a major shift in Palestinian politics - a transition in which US 
interests in both Israel and the Occupied Territories became targets of 
Palestinian militant attacks. JID's regional correspondent reports from the West 
Bank on why the USA is now in the firing line.[Jane's Intelligence Digest - 
first posted to http://jid.janes.com - 4 November 
2003]Iraq: a war without intelligenceAs the security 
situation in Iraq deteriorates daily, serious questions need to be asked about 
the shortcomings in the standard of intelligence gathering, both in the USA and 
the UK. JID has asked experienced intelligence experts to highlight the key 
problems.[Jane's Intelligence Digest - first posted to http://jid.janes.com - 4 November 2003] China steps up security on 
North Korean borderChina has transferred responsibility for securing its 
borders with North Korea and Myanmar from the police to the People's Liberation 
Army.[Jane's Intelligence Review - first posted to http://jir.janes.com - 15 October 2003] {{{ note that I had sent you a 
story about this several weeks ago. Remember, the Chinese also sent troops 
to their border with NK before  in late 1950}}}Islamist terrorism 
in Latin AmericaThe devastating 11 September terrorist attacks focused 
US attention on finding the perpetrators; US officials were shocked to find 
signs of activity far from Al-Qaeda's mountain lairs in Afghanistan, in their 
own hemisphere. In the last two years, investigators have uncovered an intricate 
web of Islamic terrorist movements and cells concentrated in the USA's back 
door, Latin America. Islamic terrorists of every movement from Hamas to Al-Qaeda 
have been uncovered in Latin America, ensconced in emigre communities. The USA 
has paid the price for its gringo superiority and the terrorists, in an arc 
sweeping through central and Latin America, have yet to be decisively 
defeated.[Jane's Terrorism  Security Monitor - first posted to 
http://jtsm.janes.com - 13 
October 2003]  Please connect this with the rise of anti-US 
governments in Latin America, and the increasing strength of Communist 
insurgents in Colombia and Peru; the Shining Path is on the rebound. When 
the World War gets going full speed, we will have serious opposition to our 
south.}Lee
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Hierarchy

2003-11-09 Thread Eric Stewart

-Caveat Lector-

In The Beginning

In the Beginning was The Plan.
And then came the Assumptions.
And the Assumptions were without form.
And the Plan was completely without substance.
And the darkness was upon the face of the faithful.
And they spoke among themselves, saying
It is a crock of shit, and it stinketh.
And the faithful went unto their Pastors and sayeth,
It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof.
And the Pastors went unto their Vicars and sayeth unto them,
It is a container of excrement and it is very strong.
Such that none may abide by it.
And the Vicars went unto their Secretariats and sayeth,
It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength.
And the Secretariats spoke amongst themselves, saying to one another,
It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.
And the Secretariats went unto the Vicar for Administration and sayeth unto
him,
It promotes growth and is very powerful.
And the Vicar for Administration went unto the Archbishop and sayeth unto
him,
This new plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency
Of this Archdiocese, and in these Areas in particular.
And the Archbishop looked upon The Plan,
And saw that it was good, and The Plan became Policy.

This is How Shit Happens.

Big Medicine: More on Falls Church, VA and 9-11
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/smilinks/FallsChurch.html

*

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] * * * The Anti-American Right * * *

-Caveat Lector-


The 
Anti-American Right 
Jack WheelerWednesday, Nov. 5, 2003 
A ToThePoint Report 
Sounds like an oxymoron, doesnt it? Its the Left  liberals, left-wingers, 
socialists, commies, pinkos, the Noam Chomskys and Alec Baldwins and Barbra 
Streisands  that hates America. But the Right  good old flag-waving patriotic 
God Bless America conservatives? How could they possibly be anti-American? It 
sounds ridiculous. 

Yet whatever sense or nonsense it makes, anti-Americanism is seeping into the 
entire conservative movement and is threatening to splinter it into pieces. 

Im not talking about the racist nuts, the white supremacists and militia 
types. Im talking about mainstream heartland conservatives. Howard Phillips, 
head of the famed Conservative Caucus, is one of the founders of the entire 
modern conservative movement in America. He is a dear friend whom I care for 
personally, with whom I worked closely on organizing support for the Reagan 
Doctrine in dismantling the Soviet Empire. 
Yet Howard Phillips writings and speeches now are indistinguishable from 
those of Howard Deans in their outpouring of vitriol and condemnation of 
President Bush, accusing him of war crimes against the people of Iraq. 

Jon Utley, an influential conservative writer and activist of long 
anti-Communist standing during the Cold War, has simply gone around the bend in 
his hatred for everything America does in terms of foreign policy and everything 
the Bush administration does, foreign and domestic. 

The same is true for conservative economist Paul Craig Roberts, whose 
syndicated columns have become so rabid that they seem deranged with hate  such 
as the claim that the Bush administration is organizing genocide for Arabs. 

David Keene, head of the American Conservative Union, organizer of the annual 
C-PAC conference (the largest gathering of conservatives in the country) and 
member of the Board of Directors of the National Rifle Association, is now in 
bed with the ACLU in its efforts to demonize Attorney General John Ashcroft and 
prevent the Patriot Act from catching Moslem terrorists. 

Former Congressman Bob Barr, who led the impeachment of Bill Clinton in 
Congress and is also an NRA board member, has become a paid whore for the ACLU, 
and now makes a living bashing Bush and Ashcroft. 

The single most influential conservative activist in Washington, Grover 
Norquist, is being investigated by the FBI for his long-standing connections to 
a network of financiers of Moslem terrorists. 

There are many people in Washington who look upon Grover as the conservative 
movements most valuable asset. His Americans for Tax Reform is in the forefront 
of the entire conservative tax reduction effort. 
Yet ATR shares office space and staff with the Islamic Institute at 1920 L 
Street. The same receptionist answers both groups phones. Grover is the 
founding chairman of the Islamic Institute and got the seed money from 
Abdurahman Alamoudi, just indicted by federal prosecutors for financial 
connections to al-Qaeda terrorists. 

Grover is the conservative movements gatekeeper to Karl Rove and the White 
House, yet he is doing everything he can to demonize John Ashcroft, recently 
appearing on a panel with Alec Baldwin to denounce the attorney general. 
Grover is amazingly smart, talented and influential. The source of his 
pro-Moslem obsession and his passionate defense of radical Moslems linked to 
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and al-Qaeda is a mystery to many. 

The source of many conservatives and libertarians hatred for America is, 
however, no mystery: the baneful influence of the founder of the Libertarian 
Party, Murray Rothbard. He is the reason why so much of the entire libertarian 
movement is in bed with the hate-America left, and why so many conservatives are 
getting under the same covers. 

The intellectual parents of the libertarian movement are philosopher Ayn Rand 
and economist Murray Rothbard, whose followers caused an ideological split in 
the movement in the 1970s. Randian libertarians are pro-defense, pro-America; 
Rothbardians are the opposite. Tragically, the latter seized control of the 
Libertarian Party and have not relinquished it since. 

I will never forget the day I canceled my subscription to Rothbard's 
Libertarian Forum newsletter in 1974. The lead editorial was written by 
Rothbard, in which he said: "The Soviet Union is the greatest force for peace in 
the world today." Not once  never  did Rothbard take the side of America in 
any dispute with the Soviet Union. 
I will state it very clearly: Murray Rothbard hated America. He was as 
Platonist as they come, and hated America for not living up to his anarchist 
ideals. 
Rothbard was a black-flag anarchist who argued for the total abolishment of 
all government entirely. Congressman Chris Cox once told me how much he 
regretted the ruinous influence of Rothbard upon the Libertarian Party, 
disenabling it from playing the

Re: [CTRL] Larouche vs. Jesuits Synarchists

-Caveat Lector-



What the hell are you mewling about now 
you pious Whining Wuzzy McWindbag!

Do you want a shoulder to cry on? 


Someone to hold your hand perhaps? 


What if Salter doesn't want to hold hands 
with Justin(e) Raimondo's Backdoor Bandit!

Are you going to liken Salter to a "Nazi" 
or an "anti-Semite," words you've already used; if he diss's your phoney 
advances.

You fouled-mouthed, scurrilous and 
obnoxious little prat.

McMuttonHead; you came, you bitched, you 
got slapped-down. 

The cause of the latter was of your own 
making and nobody else's. Now you want somebody to mommy you, and pretend that 
your own foul and insidious mouth is not in fact your own worst enemy. You have 
a terminal case of foot-in-mouth.

Here's something infinitely more 
interesting than McMoron's mind-farts.

A fish flatus!
http://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~bwilson/Herring_sound.wav


Dave.






  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Sean 
  McBride 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 10:37 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [CTRL] Larouche vs. Jesuits 
   Synarchists
  -Caveat Lector- 
  
  

  Brian,
  
  Your efforts to try to conduct a 
  well-informed, rational, fair and civil discussion on this and other topics 
  have been greatly appreciated.
  
  What is the best way to handle 
  disrupters who are vicious and deranged, and clearly have no interest in 
  dealing reasonably with the facts?
  
  Probably, aftermaking a few failed 
  efforts to engage them in serious discussion,the best course is to 
  ignore them entirely.
  
  These exchanges have nicely demonstrated 
  that it is much better to be the target than the source of irrational verbal 
  abuse and personal attacks. On the net, the attackers will have to live 
  with the consequences of their words forever.
  
  political-research 
  at
  
   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/political-research/
  
  is wide open for discussion of these 
  topics, and has a policy of firmly moderating any personal attacks or obvious 
  efforts at disruption.
  
  By the way, I regard any blanket 
  condemnation and negative stereotyping of entire religious and ethnic groups 
  to be a form of unacceptable bigotry, particularly when members of groups are 
  singled out for attack without any regard for what they've said as individuals 
  and how they've conducted their lives.
  
  As a rule it's a good idea to discourage 
  this kind of hate speech in discussion forums, unless one wants the forums to 
  descend into violent chaos.
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Brian Salter 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:37 
AM
Subject: [CTRL] Larouche vs. Jesuits 
 Synarchists
-Caveat Lector-the 
following article is of interest as it is a clear refutation ofrecent 
spurious disinfo claims that larouche is pro-jesuit, and thathis 
opposition to the synarchist movement is a cypher 
foranti-semitism. here, jesuits are identified as being behind 
synarchistefforts to promote the catholic "christero rebellion" in 
mexico, 1929.i rest my case! i don't think it could be any 
clearer. and i will notinsult myself by responding any further to 
obvious slander attacks;however, if anyone is interested in a further 
discussion and critiqueof larouche based on an adult standard of debate 
and constructive,factual analysis, i'm willing to continue sharing 
info.Synarchism, the Spanish Falange,and the Nazishttp://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3029cristero.htmlps: 
another source for the larouche org's views on jesuits (which, tomy 
knowledge, they generally consider to be an infiltrated front 
foranglo-venetian interests within the the various factions of 
thevatican, FWIW) is anton chaitkin's "treason in america". there 
are 13index references for jesuits, all of them very negative and 
critical,and which portray jesuits as allies of oligarchal subversion 
ofamerican democracy over the past two centuries. whether this is 
anaccurate analysis is a separate question, but this is what is on 
therecord.pps: i know full well that in other ways, larouche 
clearly has apro-vatican bias. to be clear, i'm not denying 
that.www.ctrl.orgDECLARATION 
 DISCLAIMER==CTRL is a discussion  informational 
exchange list. Proselytizing propagandicscreeds are unwelcomed. 
Substanceâ?"not soap-boxingâ?"please! These aresordid 
matters and 'conspiracy theory'â?"with its many half-truths, 
mis-directions and outright fraudsâ?"is used politically by different 
groups withmajor and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of 
time and thought.That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the 
validity of posts, andalways suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
read. CTRL gives nocredence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not 
apply.Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat

Re: [CTRL] Larouche vs. LaRouche (Schizoid)

-Caveat Lector-



Still got the sooks Brian? I 
note that you and Danny boy seem to have something in common? And now I see the 
grand Wazzock, Schmuck McWinbag feels he has found a "familiar spirit" with you. 
McDaft's advances on you are rather touching, I don't know whether to hurl or 
reach for my box of tissues.Now how can anything an individual like 
yourself, accept by shear fortuitous chance, be taken seriously or 
sincerely?You do not even have the personal character nor integrity to 
admit that it was yourself who from the outset began with the "hysterics" and 
suspicious paranoid allegations, as you do so again within this dogmatic post, 
"i rest my case!" as if it were the end of all 
knowledge.You cannot even come clean, nor have the decency or guts to 
apologise when caught out lying and blaming others for what you yourself engaged 
in the first instance.Character is not something developed in one post, 
or overnight B.S., it's the work of a lifetime. To date, your weak character 
indicatescrappy workmanship.The Christian Messiah said, 
"seek the truth, and the truth shall make you free." What he 
spoke of was not going down to the local synagogue and digging up dirt, or 
manufacturing dirt as people like David Icke do, who use this verse in their 
demonising hogwash; but to do some hard soul-searching to find inner 
righteousness and strength of moral character; to ultimately find the soul and 
passion of Jesus.Aside from exposing his moral duplicity; whether the 
public face of LaRouche says that he is pro- or anti- Jesuit is completely 
irrelevant. 

The point that was made is 
thatLaRouche imbibes the same old anti-Semitic Conspiracy Theories 
originated by the Jesuit propaganda mill and applies them to his own sociopathic 
and megalomaniac ends.

LaRouche employs the 
phraseology of Jesuits like Abbe Barruel, the Jesuit Vatican approved organ 
Civilta Cattolica, and the religio-political hoax 'Protocols of Zion,' he 
says:

  "This 
  Synarchist International (safe to assume heimplies some 
  'International Jewish Cabal') is a continuation of the same 
  Martinist freemasonic cult behind both the 
  Jacobin Terror and Napoleon Bonaparte's rule in 
  France".
As the Jesuit 
Barruel claimed in his crackpot conspiracy diatribes; he attributed a vast 
conspiracy in his published manifesto,"Memoires pour servir a 
l'Histoire du Jacobinisme or Memoirs Illustrating the History of 
Jacobinism,"to theIlluminati with 
Freemasons and the Jacobin's as 
part of their instrumentality to destroy Catholic Europe.He later 
used a forged letter, and claimed that a cabal of Satanic Jews were ultimately 
behind this vast universal Conspiracy.

We have witnessed the revival of the Roman 
Catholic Jesuit Abbe Burruel's, anti-Semitic Jewish-Masonic-Jacobin  et al, 
Conspiracy Theory via politicaldupes on this very forum. 

Mostly,via Shill McDaft from regurgitated 
articles fromhis bum bandit the shrill Justin Raimondo, a creature of the 
Jesuits,who himself was inspired by the holy man of Jesus Paul Craig 
Roberts, whose "neo-Jacobin" conspiracy,demonising the US 
Administrationlike reckless, godless Jacobins, was plagiarised from 
the Catholic University of America's Claes Ryn. So again, we 
trace the hand of clericalism and its allies and discover that not much has 
changed in there lovely demonising methods.Furthermore, 
"Conspiracy Theory," predominantly since about the time of the 
Enlightenment, andsince Science and Rationality began to take root in the 
pre and neo-modern world; has been a fabulously success replacement for 
Clerico-Fascists, Nazis and the Ultra-Rights,asa "Devil" 
motif; an instrument of propaganda to demonise enemies. 
Hitler himself fervently 
believed in the Conspiracy hoax 'Protocols of Zion,' and used it demonise his 
foes.

Personally, I often employ Jesuitism and 
Vaticanism as iconic effigies. Like a Lab skeleton, using it to flesh out a 
particular religio-socio-politico non-niceties and malevolence. Individually I 
know these men and they are top-notch in the brain dept. But certainly 
clericalism historically, has had and its screwy and malignant side. 


Religious Orders are adaptive. 


They are chameleon-like by nature, trained 
to infiltrate and meld as far as possible with the cultural 
surround.

Take but one recent Academic 
example:

Manufacturing 
Confucianism: Chinese Traditions and Universal 
Civilization (Duke University Press), by Lionel M. 
Jensen:

  Lionel M. Jensen 
  reveals how in China, the Jesuits, as sixteenth and seventeenth-century 
  Western missionaries used translations of the ancient ru tradition to invent 
  the presumably historical figure who has since been globally celebrated as 
  philosopher, prophet, statesman, wise man, and 
  saint.



This is a 
magnificent example of the power and will of the Jesuit Order to assimilate the 
religio-socio-political paradigm of a host nation in order to move it toward 
their own preferred ideology,

Re: [CTRL] Chip Berlet's apologist defence of ADL spying on US citizens

-Caveat Lector-



It seems your post came up right after I posted my "limit" for that day; 
when I read it, I felt an unusual Prick stabbing mid the thoracic 
vertebrae.

But in any case; whatever buys me a beer is fine. 

BUUURP!

My Portfolio's very good. Thanks for asking.

And how's yourstash of Reichsmarks doing these days down at the el 
Banco de La Argentina?

Dave.




  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  William Shannon 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 1:48 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [CTRL] Chip Berlet's 
  apologist defence of ADL spying on US citizens
  -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 11/6/2003 8:32:30 PM 
  Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Thanks for the laughs!So do you collect in shekels or Aussie dollars? What 
  is the exchange rate anyhow?I suspect you have the up-to-the-minute stats 
  in that department.Bill. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER 
  == CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. 
  Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not 
  soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with 
  its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used 
  politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout 
  the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to 
  the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you 
  read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. 
  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. 
   
  Archives Available at: 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A 
  HREF=""ctrl/A 
   To 
  subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
  [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF 
  CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Om 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Prudy Icy Gust Religious Gynophobia

-Caveat Lector-

Palestinians have problems, but so do many other
peoples have severe hardships. The suffering of one is bad enough, let alone so
many; that it becomes so incomprehensible.

Yet you can't incessantly blame your neighbour
for all your problems; when you treat your own family in suicidal and
psychopathic terms. They have dishonoured themselves, committed the most heinous
crimes against their own conscience, psycho-genocide, and now need a scapegoat
to expunge that evil guilt within their own societal-hive.

You can fake holding a suicide-bomber as a
hero-martyr only for long. Eventually your mind will crumble, as you live with
such lies. The Jews lived forhundred of years under the conditions you
enunciate, but generally didn't go around blowing their neighbours to pieces;
but rather tried to get on with them and improve on the little they had. In
fact, even in the recent controversial Mahathirspeeches, he said a similar
thing; and hence the Judeophobes didn't quite get the mileage they'd hoped for
from his talks.

Perhaps many Palestinians don't want peace,
because peace is just too hard.

For starters, peace might mean higher education
and the use of your brain to resolve problems instead of a quick-TNT explosive
grab on CNN. It might mean dissin some patriarchy, and giving a woman a life
rather than life as a breeding laboratory for the next suicide
bomber.

Religious, clerical terror against women is probably the oldest
Gynophobia.

Woman has had to cover-up; her arms, her legs, her beauty, from head to
toe. She cannot wear pants, but her guru or priest may slip on a skirt. Her head
will be shaved, or she will be forced to cover her head or her hair.

Her rape will be legitimized and sanctified by wedlock.

Her master will be her father, her husband, brother and even her own son.
Her worth will be less than that of the family dog or swine.

As a
sign of holiness, she will have to immolate herself at her husbands
funeral.

Satan is her secret lover, whilst her husband openly takes a whore.
Pregnancy is not an option for her, but a duty. Whether in metaphor, or by
actual physical means, she will carve out her sexual organs.

She is banished from holy sites, lest she pollute them and its pious male
devotees.

She learns that as god is to man, so man is to woman, as she "dwells in
terror of the living god," so she does of living man. She must nod, bow,
genuflect, kneel, kowtow and prostrate herself. She must avert her eyes.

She is told she has no soul. Paradise awaits her
only as an appendage to man; his rib, or his odalisque.

If she dared to question, she was excommunicated, declared lapsed, a
heretic, apostate, damned, doomed, expelled, ostracised, Satan's harlot,
daughter of hell; tortured, flogged, beaten, drowned, hanged, strangled or set
aflame.

If she paid all-homage to 'the faith,' and offered her body
andbeing as a complete living sacrifice, she gained vicarious honour and
sainthood; a living emissary, a holy vessel; because she served to facilitate
Mans entrance into the Kingdom of
Heaven.

Dave.

- Original Message -
From:
Prudy L
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:32
PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Icy gust cools
Israel's relations with EU - from an ICY QUEEN ...
-Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 11/6/2003 9:12:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
One cannot even begin to imagine what life would
be like in such a society. How can the likes of some Palestinians, who have
no respect for their own lives, and vicariously through no respect of their
children's lives; possibly respect their neighbours lives much less the
social welfare of their neighbour. And if they are notmaddeningly
bombing the Israeli's;they are busy killing one
another.
First one must imagine what life is like for Palestinians--no education,
no security, no jobs, no land, constant harrassment and humiliation--nothing
to look forward to except death--so strapping on a bomb and going out with a
bang must not seem like such a bad thing to a man who has no prospectsin
his future. Prudy www.ctrl.org DECLARATION
DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list.
Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceânot
soap-boxingâplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'âwith
its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsâis used
politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout
the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to
the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you
read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Re: [CTRL] Larouche vs. LaRouche (Schizoid)

2003-11-09 Thread Party of Citizens

-Caveat Lector-

Larouche has published a book titled Christian Economics. What would be
the structure and functioning of a Larouche Christian economy for
http://www.UniverCity.ca atop Burnaby Mountain in BC? A shining city on
a hill so that we can all see what he is talking about? Or can the SFU
pagans do it better?

Zandu Goldbar
POC Financier

Lyndon Larouche was right!
-Homer Simpson

 * http://www.geocities.com/CITIZENS_ASSEMBLY **
 $$$   Capital punishment is not just penalty for poverty$$$

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Reasearch on illuminati

-Caveat Lector-

I take my kids to the Library too.

Not infrequently, they come home with works of fiction; of course it's overt
fiction, and not deliberate demonising poppycock and shear fantasy disguised
as research.

Dave.




- Original Message -
From: Prudy L
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Reasearch on illuminati


-Caveat Lector- Glad to get a laugh, etc.   I'm no expert, but the book I'm
reading by this guy was borrowed (interlibrary loan) from a library in
Brooklyn.  If it's all wrong, it's a wonder he's not being sued.  Oh well.
Prudy www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion
 informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are
unwelcomed. Substanceâ?not soap-boxingâ?please! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory'â?with its many half-truths, mis- directions and
outright fraudsâ?is used politically by different groups with major and
minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being
said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests
to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust
denial and nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A
HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A
 To
subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE
CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF
CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Om

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceânot soap-boxingâplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'âwith its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsâis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] David Sutherland

-Caveat Lector-



I'm not sure what you are responding to, as there is no pre-content in your 
post.

In any case, your diggy-postjust re-states a given; people will draw 
their own conclusion regardless whether or not I, or anybody else, claims 
something is BS. Oddly, youre-enacted the strange schizo-mind exhibited by 
some on this forum of doing the very same thing as you accuse others of, ie 
being irrelevant.

This is just a small forum, quite irrelevant to the Big Picture or scheme 
of things. That's not to say anything bad of it, but youhavesee 
things in perspective and realise there are just squillions of forums on the 
Netmuch like this one. 

It's only sociopaths like the anti-social Shyte McDudd, who believe they 
are on some type of mission from god, a holy Crusade to hunt down evil-doers, 
and who have fallen victim to their own hate-rhetoric and imbibed regurgitated, 
paranoidJudeophobic conspiracy theories; that take themselves overly 
seriously and as you can see, in the process go quite insane.

"constructive," in the end can be a rather subjective 
orientation. It's all a matter of perspective, where you're coming from and what 
presuppositions one brings to the table, and where you think you are 
headed.

For instance, on the surface; toddlers seem very de- or un- constructive, 
butonce we begin to appreciate that the apparent destructiveness of the 
toddler in taking apart a flower or knocking down sand castles is in fact a 
constructive effort to understand unity, we are able to revise our view of the 
situation, moving from reprimand and prohibition to the intelligent channelling 
of his efforts and the fostering of discovery.

Dave.
- Original Message 
- From: "Daniel Harrison" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 
Friday, November 07, 2003 2:59 PMSubject: [CTRL] David 
Sutherland-Caveat Lector-Im sure you have many reasons for 
saying what you have said although youmustknow that all people of 
intelligence will use their own determination tocometo a conclusion of 
wether others posts are bBS or not.Thankyou you for you comments 
although they do no one any good when they arenot 
constructive.--Regards,Daniel HarrisonPABX Advisory Services 
Pty Ltdwww.ctrl.orgDECLARATION  
DISCLAIMER==CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange 
list. Proselytizingpropagandicscreeds are unwelcomed. Substanceâ?"not 
soap-boxingâ?"please! These aresordid matters and 'conspiracy 
theory'â?"with its many half-truths, mis-directions and outright fraudsâ?"is 
used politically by different groupswithmajor and minor effects spread 
throughout the spectrum of time and thought.That being said, CTRLgives no 
endorsement to the validity of posts, andalways suggests to readers; be wary 
of what you read. CTRL gives nocredence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need 
not apply.Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat 
Lector.Archives 
Available at:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A HREF="">ctrlhttp://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/ATo 
subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:SUBSCRIBE CTRL 
[to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]To 
UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:SIGNOFF CTRL 
[to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]Om
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceânot soap-boxingâplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'âwith its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsâis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Shill McDudds (Nightly?) Eruption Methods

-Caveat Lector-

Yes Yawn McDudd, unlike your droll,
boorish self, some of us do think and read and are able to construct thoughts
and come to independent conclusions rather than sociopaths such as yourself who
ape others, tow a particular party-political line, and thenmake complete
arses of themselves because they don't have a grip on anything, excepta
microscope looking for their ant-sized weenies.

Not sure what you areapoplectically
carrying on about "homosexuals"? Are you trying to tell us that you are a butt-sniffer
like your guru Justin(e) Raimondo or something? Your sexual preferences and
fantasies have nothing to do me McDudd, they're your choices. Don't tray and
blameus for them.

You're quite an angry little fellow aren't
you, withall that bold type you scrawl on the walls here.
Come andlie down on Dr. Dave's
couch for a bit and tell Dr. Dave whatangers you so and what makes you
spew all this hatred everywhere little Shyster McFrazzled?

"... your skills in verbal abuse,
I know of several software programs that can easily outdo
you."

Lol! McDudd keeps dancing the Freudian
Slip! He does it so well -"software"! Really Yawn McDudd?
Hang on a bit ...you are boring me
into ... a ... Yaaawn!

Don't go back we'll be right
away.

That's better. Okay so lets move on in reverse to McDudd.

Now who would've thought that
?!?!

Who would've thought thatMcDudd was
"... not an independent mind but a mere winding cog in the vast Borg
Machinery,sustaining the Borg agenda" well, actually that's me
quoting my good self! Sure hit that
McDudd-Nut right on the head in my previous post! McDudddidn't even see
the truck that just ran over him.

Windbag McDudd is simply tooignorant
to even at this point realise that in his apoplectic foot in mouth;
he'slet the cat out of the bag again to reveal that he's been toying with
software to do his "thinking" for him; the lazy intellectual sloth that he is.
In fact, he's been toying with "software" to assist with, and
for the purpures of "verbal abuse".B'Jeezus, what a
fruitball!

Then McNappySanMouth, has the gall to
attribute others posts as
software"bots"!Once again, we have
the liar McShill; attempting to tar another with the very thing he is involved
in doing.

McTosser frothed: "Do you think
you are doing Israel any favors .." Whatfavours McKook? If
what you say is true, and not a lie, like everything else you post; and if I'm
not doing Israel any favours then plainly and simply, I'm just not doing Israel
any favours.

But, if that were the case as you claim,
why have you expended another apoplectic post trying to deny what you allege is
as obvious as that six-foottrunk of yours McPinocchio?

LMAO! You're really a hopeless
case.

It's evident that you cannot construct one
rational, logical sensible sentence even with that smear
"software" of yours. I'd take it back to the store and ask for
a refund; "user too stupid" to
operate.Clearly you're a dumb
schmuck McDunce, and not very technologically savvy either.

Furthermore, I'm hardly concerned about
Israel, they seem to have a pretty good handle on things; I am more concerned
about American psychos such as yourself who think they are on some divine
mission; a holy Crusader hunting down evil-doers. I think you'rekind of
sick mentality poses more threat to decent people and stray poodles, more than
anything Israel does.

McBanal fulminates: "... including
the National Council of Churches,who joined with Catholics in strongly
opposing the Iraq War." You're hilarious with
the Freudian Slips todayMcDudd the McDaft.

One has to rub ones eye's in disbelief as
such ignorance and foot-in-mouth!

McFruitBallz has slipped on another soap
bar! He's just confirmed what I have implied all along but he has so venomously
denied in every post! He's finally admitted the role and hand of clericalism in
all this anti-America, anti-Israel, and anti-Jew bullshyte. McDudd now seems to want it both ways; he's learnt
the AC/DC style of his boy lover Justin(e) Raimondo.

Nonetheless, Dr. Dave's efficacious
therapy appears to have improved patient McDudd; he's progressively moving away
from his hitherto state of denial, whilst providing us all with some decent
entertainment with is foot-in-mouth antics. Which must be a change from having
Justine(e) R's gonads in his gob.

McDaft prattled: "Europeans
now believe that Israel is a greater threat to world peace than Iran and North
Korea"

SHIT! REALLY! That's really big time NEW;
News!

I think I have a copy of the same poll
conducted by Herr Goebbels.

And similar polls from News clippings
circa 1930-40's Nazi Germany, and same from the Russian Secret Police, and the
Inquisition, and Medieval Catholic Europe, and some from the Catholic holy men
before that. With almost two millennia of such "polls," you really have some BIG
Jew-Hate "News" there McBrainDead.

I just hope them evil Israeli's

Re: [CTRL] Fw: H

-Caveat Lector-



Much of this is wrong.

Very, very wrong.

If you examine the situation in Europe, 
the only winners of the Balkans conflagrations were the Vatican and some of its 
Muslim allies. Russia also now appears to be moving closer to the 
Vatican.

The Balkan conflagrations, damaged and 
weakened the "Godless Communists," and re-established theformer papal 
fiefdoms; the WWII murderous Nazi satellite State of Catholic Croatia as but one 
example, where the murderous crimes against humanity and "racial purification" 
enacted by the indigenous Ustache, blessed by Catholic clerics some of whom 
willingly often participated in the atrocities; made even the Nazi's ill and 
were on a level unparalleled in modern history.

Dave.



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mrs. Jela 
  Jovanovic 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:03 
  AM
  Subject: [CTRL] Fw: H
  -Caveat Lector- 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Icy gust cools Israel's relations with EU - from an ICY QUEEN ...

-Caveat Lector-

What do I think?

Well I think that's pretty freckin sick.

That's like saying if I had a gripe over a piece of turf with my neighbour,
I strap some TNT onto my kids back and blow my neighbours kids up so I can
get some attention from the Local Council over my alleged 'plight'.

The reality of it is that I would be seen as a complete wacko and locked up.

Murder is just plain fucking murder and no reason justifies it.

To suggest you blow your kids and your neighbours kids up, for the sake of
attention and media publicity, is the thinking of psychopaths, not
liberators.


Dave.



- Original Message -
From: Daniel Harrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Icy gust cools Israel's relations with EU - from an ICY
QUEEN ...


-Caveat Lector-

coul it be that they do this because sacraficing their life not to kill jews
for the sake of it but to save their children and childrens children by
giving their life to make someone notice their cause in an otherwise media
locked down conflict.

The jews have brought this on them selves by holding media attention back
from
them and thus this is the only way then can achieve it (by blowing
themselves
up).

.really i do not believe someone wakes up in the morning and says well i
fell like blowing up myself today, more to the effect of if i do this maybe
someone somewhere will notice and might do something to help which in turn
could possibly end the conflict and save their childrens lives.

what are your thoughts on this?

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:32, you wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 11/6/2003 9:12:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 One cannot even begin to imagine what life would be like in such a
society.
 How can the likes of some Palestinians, who have no respect for their own
 lives, and vicariously through no respect of their children's lives;
 possibly respect their neighbours lives much less the social welfare of
 their neighbour. And if they are not maddeningly bombing the Israeli's;
 they are busy killing one another.
 First one must imagine what life is like for Palestinians--no education,
no
 security, no jobs, no land, constant harrassment and humiliation--nothing
 to look forward to except death--so strapping on a bomb and going out with
 a bang must not seem like such a bad thing to a man who has no prospects
in
 his future.  Prudy

 www.ctrl.org
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
 propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceâ?not soap-boxingâ?please!
 These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'â?with its many
 half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsâ?is used politically by
 different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the
 spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to
 the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you
 read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not
apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:

 http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

--
Regards,

Daniel Harrison
PABX Advisory Services Pty Ltd
Ph :  02-9893-7888
Fax: 02-9893-7788

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceâ?not soap-boxingâ?please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'â?with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsâ?is used politically by different groups
with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange

Re: [CTRL] David Sutherland

2003-11-09 Thread Daniel Harrison

-Caveat Lector-

I refuse to argue with a fool, for some might not be able to tell the
difference.

Thankyou for you opinion it was much appreciated.

You seem to be quite intelligent seen by some reasoning behind your
statements, don't do yourself a disfavour.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:50, you wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

 I'm not sure what you are responding to, as there is no pre-content in your
 post.

 In any case, your diggy-post just re-states a given; people will draw their
 own conclusion regardless whether or not I, or anybody else, claims
 something is BS. Oddly, you re-enacted the strange schizo-mind exhibited by
 some on this forum of doing the very same thing as you accuse others of, ie
 being irrelevant.

 This is just a small forum, quite irrelevant to the Big Picture or scheme
 of things. That's not to say anything bad of it, but you have see things in
 perspective and realise there are just squillions of forums on the Net much
 like this one.

 It's only sociopaths like the anti-social Shyte McDudd, who believe they
 are on some type of mission from god, a holy Crusade to hunt down
 evil-doers, and who have fallen victim to their own hate-rhetoric and
 imbibed regurgitated, paranoid Judeophobic conspiracy theories; that take
 themselves overly seriously and as you can see, in the process go quite
 insane.

 constructive, in the end can be a rather subjective orientation. It's all
 a matter of perspective, where you're coming from and what presuppositions
 one brings to the table, and where you think you are headed.

 For instance, on the surface; toddlers seem very de- or un- constructive,
 but once we begin to appreciate that the apparent destructiveness of the
 toddler in taking apart a flower or knocking down sand castles is in fact a
 constructive effort to understand unity, we are able to revise our view of
 the situation, moving from reprimand and prohibition to the intelligent
 channelling of his efforts and the fostering of discovery.


 Dave.



 - Original Message -
 From: Daniel Harrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:59 PM
 Subject: [CTRL] David Sutherland


 -Caveat Lector-

 Im sure you have many reasons for saying what you have said although you
 must
 know that all people of intelligence will use their own determination to
 come
 to a conclusion of wether others posts are bBS or not.

 Thankyou you for you comments although they do no one any good when they
 are not constructive.
 --
 Regards,

 Daniel Harrison
 PABX Advisory Services Pty Ltd

 www.ctrl.org
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
 propagandic
 screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceâ?not soap-boxingâ?please!   These are
 sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'â?with its many half-truths, mis-
 directions and outright fraudsâ?is used politically by different groups
 with
 major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
 That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
 always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
 credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:

 http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

 www.ctrl.org
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
 propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceânot soap-boxingâplease!
 These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'âwith its many
 half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsâis used politically by
 different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the
 spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to
 the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you
 read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:

 http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

--
Regards,

Daniel Harrison
PABX Advisory Services

Re: [CTRL] Icy gust cools Israel's relations with EU - from an ICY QUEEN ...

2003-11-09 Thread Daniel Harrison

-Caveat Lector-

Thankyou for your opinion, although please dont forget the idea of looking at
thing from different perspectives.

Besides you obviously dont care it seems you have somewhere to sleep at night
already.

After long enough in the box it seems you forgot theres a world outside or are
you just being ignorant?

If so why bother? no-one honestly cares for that.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:50, you wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

 What do I think?

 Well I think that's pretty freckin sick.

 That's like saying if I had a gripe over a piece of turf with my neighbour,
 I strap some TNT onto my kids back and blow my neighbours kids up so I can
 get some attention from the Local Council over my alleged 'plight'.

 The reality of it is that I would be seen as a complete wacko and locked
 up.

 Murder is just plain fucking murder and no reason justifies it.

 To suggest you blow your kids and your neighbours kids up, for the sake of
 attention and media publicity, is the thinking of psychopaths, not
 liberators.


 Dave.



 - Original Message -
 From: Daniel Harrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 3:08 PM
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] Icy gust cools Israel's relations with EU - from an ICY
 QUEEN ...


 -Caveat Lector-

 coul it be that they do this because sacraficing their life not to kill
 jews for the sake of it but to save their children and childrens children
 by giving their life to make someone notice their cause in an otherwise
 media locked down conflict.

 The jews have brought this on them selves by holding media attention back
 from
 them and thus this is the only way then can achieve it (by blowing
 themselves
 up).

 .really i do not believe someone wakes up in the morning and says well
 i fell like blowing up myself today, more to the effect of if i do this
 maybe someone somewhere will notice and might do something to help which in
 turn could possibly end the conflict and save their childrens lives.

 what are your thoughts on this?

 On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:32, you wrote:
  -Caveat Lector-
 
  In a message dated 11/6/2003 9:12:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  One cannot even begin to imagine what life would be like in such a

 society.

  How can the likes of some Palestinians, who have no respect for their own
  lives, and vicariously through no respect of their children's lives;
  possibly respect their neighbours lives much less the social welfare of
  their neighbour. And if they are not maddeningly bombing the Israeli's;
  they are busy killing one another.
  First one must imagine what life is like for Palestinians--no education,

 no

  security, no jobs, no land, constant harrassment and humiliation--nothing
  to look forward to except death--so strapping on a bomb and going out
  with a bang must not seem like such a bad thing to a man who has no
  prospects

 in

  his future.  Prudy
 
  www.ctrl.org
  DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
  ==
  CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
  propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceâ?not soap-boxingâ?please!
  These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'â?with its many
  half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsâ?is used politically by
  different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the
  spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement
  to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what
  you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not

 apply.

  Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
  
  Archives Available at:
 
  http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
  A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A
  
  To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
  SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
  SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Om

 --
 Regards,

 Daniel Harrison
 PABX Advisory Services Pty Ltd
 Ph :  02-9893-7888
 Fax: 02-9893-7788

 www.ctrl.org
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
 propagandic
 screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceâ?not soap-boxingâ?please!   These are
 sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'â?with its many half-truths, mis-
 directions and outright fraudsâ?is used politically by different groups
 with
 major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
 That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
 always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
 credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Re: [CTRL] Reasearch on illuminati

2003-11-09 Thread Marti Maurer

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: Davide [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Reasearch on illuminati

 -Caveat Lector-

 I take my kids to the Library too.

 Not infrequently, they come home with works of fiction; of course it's
overt
 fiction, and not deliberate demonising poppycock and shear fantasy
disguised
 as research.

 Dave.

 - Original Message -
 From: Prudy L
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] Reasearch on illuminati

 -Caveat Lector- Glad to get a laugh, etc.   I'm no expert, but the book
I'm
 reading by this guy was borrowed (interlibrary loan) from a library in
 Brooklyn.  If it's all wrong, it's a wonder he's not being sued.  Oh well.
 Prudy www.ctrl.org DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a
discussion
  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are
 unwelcomed. Substanceâ?not soap-boxingâ?please! These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory'â?with its many half-truths, mis- directions and
 outright fraudsâ?is used politically by different groups with major and
 minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That
being
 said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always
suggests
 to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust
 denial and nazi's need not apply.
 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

 Archives Available at:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A
 HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To
 subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE
 CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF
 CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Om

 www.ctrl.org
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing
propagandic
 screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceâ?not soap-boxingâ?please!   These are
 sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'â?with its many half-truths, mis-
 directions and outright fraudsâ?is used politically by different groups
with
 major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
thought.
 That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
 always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
 credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

 Archives Available at:

 http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om Are you truley that ignorant? I must be misuderstanding what you are
saying! Researching the Illuminiti is fiction??? Oh, how this organization
must love blind people like you! They have influences in evry aspect
of human life in every country of this world and you are calling it
fiction??? OH BROTHER  Lord help  us all with people like you on
this planet  M Maurer   a soldier for Jesus Christ

This Email has been scanned for viruses, courtesy of Tnets.net

www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substanceânot soap-boxingâplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'âwith its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsâis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Fwd: [cia-drugs] BUSH-NAZI DEALINGS CONTINUED UNTIL 1951 - FEDERAL DOCUMENTS

2003-11-09 Thread Kris Millegan

-Caveat Lector-
 
www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om
---BeginMessage---
-Caveat Lector-


 Here is the much-anticipated, "final"-edited follow-up NHG story for
posting tomorrow. None of this has ever been reported anywhere before,
not even the Internet sites, so it should provoke quite a reaction -- on
all sides.
Please make sure it is posted at least as far and wide as the first
story, so we can further build our global base for the still to come
stories.
A number of the major world newspapers that ran the AP story are going
with this over the coming week, so the impact should be much wider and
louder than the first story -- which really advanced the debate, all the
way to Doonesbury and Howard Kurtz. Not bad after 60 years of enforced
silence.
Thanks very much for all your help in making this story happen after 60
years! Keep the faith, and please keep up the good work on behalf of the
truth. We are winning...as truth can not be withstood for long...even
from the corporate conglomerate ivory tower.


BUSH-NAZI DEALINGS CONTINUED UNTIL 1951 - FEDERAL DOCUMENTS


By John Buchanan and Stacey Michael
Exclusive to The New Hampshire Gazette, Vol. 248, No. 3, November 7,
2003


Founded in 1756, The New Hampshire Gazette is The Nation's Oldest
Newspaper



After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on
behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, Prescott Bush, the
grandfather
of President George W. Bush, failed to divest himself of more than a
dozen
"enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951,
newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal.

Furthermore, the records show that Bush and his colleagues routinely
attempted to conceal their activities from government investigators.

Bush's partners in the secret web of Thyssen-controlled ventures
included
former New York Governor W. Averell Harriman and his younger brother, E.
Roland Harriman. Their quarter-century of Nazi financial transactions,
from
1924-1951, were conducted by the New York private banking firm, Brown
Brothers Harriman.

The White House did not return phone calls seeking comment.

Although the additional seizures under the Trading with the Enemy Act
did
not take place until after the war, documents from The National Archives
and Library of Congress confirm that Bush and his partners continued
their
Nazi dealings unabated. These activities included a financial
relationship
with the German city of Hanover and several industrial concerns. They
went
undetected by investigators until after World War Two.

At the same time Bush and the Harrimans were profiting from their Nazi
partnerships, W. Averell Harriman was serving as President Franklin
Delano
Roosevelt's personal emissary to the United Kingdom during the toughest
years of the war. On October 28, 1942, the same day two key
Bush-Harriman-run businesses were being seized by the U.S. government,
Harriman was meeting in London with South African Field Marshall Smuts
to discuss the war effort.

Denial and Deceit

While Harriman was concealing his Nazi relationships from his government
colleagues, Cornelius Livense, the top executive of the interlocking
German
concerns held under the corporate umbrella of Union Banking Corporation
(UBC), repeatedly tried to mislead investigators, and was sometimes
supported in his subterfuge by Brown Brothers Harriman.

All of the assets of UBC and its related businesses belonged to
Thyssen-controlled enterprises, including his Bank voor Handel en
Scheepvaart in Rotterdam, the documents state.

Nevertheless, Livense, president of UBC, claimed to have no knowledge of
such a relationship. "Strangely enough, (Livense) claims he does not
know
the actual ownership of the company," states a government report.

H.D Pennington, manager of Brown Brothers Harriman and a director of UBC
"for many years," also lied to investigators about the secret and
well-concealed

[CTRL] Senate Panel Intensifies Its Conservancy Probe

2003-11-09 Thread Jim Rarey

-Caveat Lector-



http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A20332-2003Nov9?language=printer





  
  


  

  

  

  

  

  

  
   
  
  
washingtonpost.com 
Senate Panel Intensifies Its Conservancy Probe 

By Joe Stephens and David B. OttawayWashington Post Staff 
WritersMonday, November 10, 2003; Page A01 

A six-month inquiry into the Arlington-based Nature Conservancy by the Senate 
Finance Committee has raised "new questions in a wide range of areas," leading 
investigators to intensify their pursuit of internal audits and property records 
they have been seeking since last summer, according to committee Chairman 
Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa).
Committee investigators, who have been looking into the charity's management 
and real estate sales, are now particularly interested in the "valuation of land 
donations and the conservation-buyer program," Grassley said. The charity uses 
that program to sell property to private individuals, including Conservancy 
members.
In a statement, Grassley said he is reserving judgment until the 
investigation is concluded, but added: "I expect it will become even more clear 
that reforms to existing law should accompany any new incentives for taxpayers 
to donate land for conservation." Grassley is sponsor of a bill backed by the 
Conservancy that passed the Senate earlier this year and which would provide 
hundreds of millions of dollars in new conservation tax breaks. 
"The Conservancy always anticipated there would be additional questions," the 
charity said in a statement Friday. "Should the Committee identify reforms it 
feels are needed, the Conservancy stands ready to work with the Committee to 
design and implement them." 
Grassley's comments came as committee staffers and Conservancy officials met 
last week to resolve issues that have delayed the release of key Conservancy 
documents, which detail some of the charity's largest and most controversial 
real estate deals. 
"There are some areas where the Finance Committee has yet to receive a 
complete response or will require additional information," Grassley and ranking 
Democrat Max Baucus (Mont.) wrote to the Conservancy last week. The Conservancy 
had said it could not hand over some of the records because it was bound by 
confidentiality agreements or did not want to release proprietary information. 
In its letter, the committee offered to subpoena the documents. 
Baucus said in a statement last week, "The Nature Conservancy has been 
cooperative with the information requested to this point, and I expect this 
willingness to continue." The senators also asked the Conservancy for a written 
promise not to retaliate against whistleblowers who "have been chilled by 
confidentiality agreements."
Conservancy officials said in Friday's statement that they expected "in a 
matter of days" to resolve all issues holding up release of the documents, 
including concerns about individual privacy.
"The Conservancy has cooperated voluntarily and fully with the Committee and 
its staff throughout the inquiry and it will continue to do so," the group's 
statement said. "The Conservancy is eager to produce the remaining documents as 
soon as possible."
The Conservancy said it has obtained confidentiality waivers and is awaiting 
"confirmation from the committee of the Conservancy's understanding of how 
Senate disclosure rules will be applied." 
With $3 billion in assets, the Conservancy is the world's largest 
environmental group and has preserved millions of acres worldwide.
The areas where the committee is seeking additional information include: 
internal Conservancy audits, Conservancy land sales to government agencies, a 
$64 million land deal on Martha's Vineyard that involved talk show host David 
Letterman and "details of sales, donations or purchases of land with certain 
private individuals and companies," the senators' letter says. The Conservancy 
said that 11 of its land transactions were covered by confidentiality 
agreements.
The Washington Post independently obtained one Conservancy audit, of a 
project on Virginia's Eastern Shore. The audit found widespread accounting 
problems and violations of Internal Revenue Service regulations. The audit also 
states that managers helped a contractor "hide personal income."
The Senate inquiry began after a Post series in May reported on a wide range 
of Conservancy practices. Articles detailed how the charity had sold scenic 
properties to its state trustees, who reaped large tax breaks. Other stories 
disclosed that the charity engaged in multimillion-dollar business deals with 
companies and their executives while they sat on the charity's governing board 
and advisory council. The Conservancy responded by banning a range of 
practices.
The senators wrote the Conservancy in July seeking internal records covering 
18 broad categories and set an Aug. 18 deadline. The Conservancy pledged to 
cooperate and has

Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to Sean

Title: Message
-Caveat Lector-



Zuukie,

Your last reply bears no connection to the 
exchanges which preceded it.

You claimed that only woman observed the Israeli 
spies celebrating the destruction of the World Trade Center on 
9/11.

Documentation was provided proving your error -- 
documentation which appears in this very message, below.

Rather than admitting your error, and dealing 
with the implications of the truth about these Israeli government operatives, 
who are clearly the enemies of all Americans, you veered off vaguely in another 
direction altogether.

By doing this, you give the impression to the 
world that you are an apologist, if not a very effective one, for Israeli abuses 
against Americans.

There are many New Yorkers who would like to 
spend some time with thesecheerleaders for911 in asmall 
room. And the suspicion remains that they were co-conspirators in 911, 
since they were Mossad agents who "came to document the 
event."


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Zuukie 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 2:29 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to 
  Sean
  -Caveat Lector- 
  
  http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/25378_comment.php
  
  Yes, I read the story but thought I would 
  be polite and not comment on it, particularly after looking at the stories 
  carried by the paper it came from. The above site is a series of posts 
  on the topic that I would recommend as a response to 
  you.Knowledgeable individuals have spent time gathering much 
  information that should be reviewed by others before they jump to conclusions 
  based on the slippery story you posted.
  

-Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean 
McBrideSent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:56 PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies to 
Sean-Caveat Lector- 

Zuukie,

I posted in this group several days ago the 
full text of an article which mentions three reasons, apart from the 
testimony of one woman, to believe that the Israeli spies in question 
celebrated the destruction of the World Trade Center.

The article is here:

 http://ww1.sundayherald.com/print37707

Are you able to read the article and to 
identify the three reasons I am alluding to?

Let me be of 
assistance:

1. There were also fresh pictures of the men 
standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. 
One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated 
buildings, like a fan at a pop concert.

2. An employee of Urban Moving said his 
co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. I 
was in tears, the man said. These guys were joking and that bothered me. 
These guys were like, Now America knows what we go through. 


3. Their lawyers and the embassy say their 
ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands 
died were due to youthful foolishness. 

Comments?

In an earlier post, you dismissed the reports 
of Odigo advance warnings not being of significance. 
Why?


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Zuukie 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 
  11:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [CTRL] Third try Replies 
  to Sean
  -Caveat Lector- 
  
  I tried posting my answers to your 
  questions three times, and only on the third time did my post 
  appear. You have given no sources that can be checked for your 
  information. Since you made the original allegations, I would 
  suggest you post sources and then I will give sources in rebuttal. 
  Saying that numerous government investigators have viewed the video 
  is not a valid comment unless a source is given. Your entire first 
  post gave no sources other than your opinion based on whatever you 
  read. A scholar you are not. A propagandist is what you are.
  

-Original Message-From: Conspiracy Theory 
Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean 
McBrideSent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:51 
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [CTRL] Third 
try Replies to Sean-Caveat Lector- 

Mr. Rarey,

The Israeli spies hung themselves with 
their own video, which has been viewed by numerous government 
investigators. We are not reliant on the testimony of a single 
woman in this case to know how the Israelis 
behaved.

What is there about Israel which is 
capable of dimming the minds of even highly intelligent people? 
Look at what it has done to "geniuses" like Paul Wolfowitz and Richard 
Perle, who assured us that

[CTRL] More Evidence of Richard Perle's Role in the Iraq War

-Caveat Lector-



So -- Richard Perle played a key role in 
knocking down what was apparently a legitimate peace offer from Iraq, one which 
was certainly in the interests of the United States, the West and the 
world.

Why did Perle do this? To pursue a 
strategy on behalf on Israeli interests, as defined by Likud, which he had 
helped design years before in the Clean Break paper for 
Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel's Institute for 
Advanced Strategic and Political Studies.

The American major media, once again, have 
backed away from looking at the Israeli angle on the Iraq War. As one 
reason after another for the war goes up in smoke, including the oil rationale, 
the big media scratch their heads and ask in a puzzled way, what could the real 
reason have been? We're so baffled. We just can't figure it 
out. The true cause will remain a mystery forever, like the identity of 
the leakers in the Valerie Plame affair.

Perle's influence in this matter has cost 
Americans at least $100 billion and their good relations with the rest of the 
world, including their traditional allies. Perle and his neocon colleagues 
have also greatly increased the risks of terrorism for Americans. And yet 
the American big media continue to treat him respectfully.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/nm/20031109/ts_nm/iraq_usa_offer_dc_1


U.S. Advisor Says Iraq Peace Offer 
Was a Trap

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A last minute peace deal 
offered by a top Iraqi official in the run up to the war that toppled Saddam 
Hussein (news 
- web 
sites) was a trap designed to discredit U.S. policy, an advisor to the 
Pentagon (news 
- web 
sites) said on Sunday. 
Richard Perle, former chairman of the Defense Policy 
Advisory Board who had met with a Lebanese businessman who conveyed the Iraqi 
offer meant to prevent an invasion, said the offer had not been credible. 

Perle told ABC television's "This Week With George Stephanopoulos" that the 
offer by former chief of intelligence, Gen. Tahir Habbush made through Imad 
Hage, a prominent Lebanese-American businessman, was one of many approaches for 
a last-minute peace deal. 

"There were a number of governments that were trying to broker something with 
the Iraqis," Perle said. "So this was not credible, this offline approach, 
indirect as it was." 

The Bush administration has been accused by Democrats of being overeager to 
go to war with Iraq (news 
- web 
sites), ignoring possible diplomatic avenues to peace including that 
conveyed through Perle and exaggerating the threat from Iraq. 

The offer that came to Perle was to allow the United States to inspect for 
weapons of mass destruction, which the Iraqis said they did not have, and to 
turn over a top al Qaeda operative who was in Iraqi custody. 

Perle said it also included oil concessions and he thought it was part of an 
effort to use that offer to discredit U.S. intentions. 

"This was a trap," Perle said. "I think it was clearly a trap. It was 
intended to discredit the administration's policy, it was intended to discredit 
our effort to liberate Iraq." 

ABC News reported last week that Hage had met with Iraqi officials, including 
Habbush, to discuss the peace offer. Hage had also met with Perle in London to 
convey the information. 



www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease!   These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
A HREF=""ctrl/A

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

[CTRL] Fw: Chaos in Iraq and Washington