Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[MIKE SPITZER]

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: Steve Wingate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal


-Caveat Lector-

I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon. Fortunately it is still
protected from oil drilling and mining operations.  :)

Steve

Good luck, my friend!

God speed,

Mike


=
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT

  FROM THE DESK OF:

   *Michael Spitzer*[EMAIL PROTECTED]

   The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends
=







On 11 May 01, at 15:16, William Bacon wrote:

 Hello! Well it's been almost 3 days since I posted my ami an extremist?
 and no response from Steve Wingate. What's the matter? Your buzzword
 generator not working?
 Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
 proposal involves what these watermelon environmental groups can do to
 promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
 manner!
 Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
 and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
 is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
 eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
 perfectly free to join them. And of course I would stipulate that these
 wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
 sprawl, nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
 energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
 after? Anything wrong with this? An inquiring mind would like to know!
 Bill Bacon



ANOMALOUS IMAGES AND UFO FILES
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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal #3

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

Good idea, Bill, then me and my light-burning, 4WD  motorcycle
driving, cigarette smoking, beer drinking, deer hunting, meat-eating,
charcoal-grilling, trash-burning, tire-dumping-in-the-woods,
drag-racing-on-the-street, gun nut, peeing-in-the-river buddies here in
New Jersey will have more space to spread out and have our fun!

Tenorlove


--- William Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

 Hello!
 Here is my current suggestion for Watermelon Environmental Group
 Members
 (WEGers) inthe Mid-atlantic area to congregate!

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Prudence L. Kuhn]

-Caveat Lector-

Sounds like a great idea.  Can you provide location of one of these pristine areas?  
Prudy

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

Can you provide location of one of these pristine areas?  


Alas.

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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Amelia]

-Caveat Lector-

{{Well, seems to me that if the wacko environ extremists were
serious, this would be their ideal.  But then, of course, they only
want to control what OTHERS do while picking and choosing for
themselves only those measures that suit their own agenda.  So when
enough of them demonstrate their sincerity in the following manner,
I will start to pay more attention.  Meanwhile, those do-good
non-profit orgs are some of the most corrupt and manipulative forms
of corporate greed in existence.  So the UN and NWO now called
Globalists goal is to eliminate 70 percent of the population and
they are behind schedule.  Come on, help them out!  Se below for how
you can do this.
~Amelia~}



The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement


May we live long and die out




Phasing out the human race by voluntarily ceasing to breed will
allow Earth's biosphere to return to good health. Crowded conditions
and resource shortages will improve as we become less dense.



Deutsch | English | Francais | Italiano | Portugues
Translations Welcome



ABOUT THE MOVEMENT

What is the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement?
Are you really serious?
How do I join?
What's new?
Do some people misunderstand the VHEMT concept?

BIOLOGY AND BREEDING

What's wrong with having babies? Don't you like babies?
If we only produce two children, doesn't that just replace
ourselves?
Aren't the wrong people making babies these days?
I'm extra smart. Shouldn't I pass on my genes?
What about the human instinct to breed?
Do we have to stop having sex?
Does VHEMT favor abortion?
Will contraception lower birth rates?

DEATH

Will new viruses, wars, famine, and toxic waste help the cause of
human extinction?
Are we all supposed to kill ourselves?
Won't VHEMT die out when all its members die off?

ECOLOGY

Is parenthood bad for Earth's ecology?
What's the big deal about animals going extinct?
Are humans the most important species on Earth?
How do I gauge the depth of my ecology?
Don't humans have a place in Nature?
Isn't over-population just a human distribution problem?

ECONOMICS

Does a growing economy require a growing population?
Who will pay our social security when we're old?
Is conservation the answer to resource depletion?
Isn't over-population worse in poor countries?
Is unequal distribution of wealth the cause of hunger rather than
over-population?
Is capitalism the main cause of environmental destruction?

POLITICS

Didn't Hitler have the same ideas?
Does VHEMT support China's one-child policy?
Should human migration be controlled to help Earth's ecosystems?
Will Urban Growth Boundaries stop suburban sprawl?
What about our right to breed?

PHILOSOPHY and RELIGION

Is there a typical path of progression to a VHEMT awareness?
Will human extinction solve all of Earth's problems?
If there were a magic button for extinction, would you press it?
What will the world be like when population starts getting smaller?
What will Earth be like without humans?
Is voluntary human extinction possible?
Isn't over population just a symptom of the problem rather than the
cause?
Are religions to blame for human over population?
Earth's sun will burn out in a few billion years anyway, so what
difference does it make?

SCIENCE FICTION and FANTASY

Without us, who would protect Earth from extraterrestrial threats
like comets and asteroids?
Why not clone extinct species from their DNA codes?
Why not move excess human population to colonies on other planets?
If we spread life to other planets, wouldn't there be more chance
for it to survive?

LINKS







© 1996 - 2001 Les U. Knight. Non-profit reproductions permitted with
citation.

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon.

 

Do us a favor. While you’re there, check these out, OK?



http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/text/grnd.html

http://www.sightings.com/earthchanges/grandcanyon_e.htm

http://www.keelynet.com/unclass/canyon.txt


Thanks in advance.

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal (fwd)

[YnrChyldzWyld]

-Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 12 May 2001, William Bacon wrote:
Now that Mr. Shannon has called me the standard names, has anybody an
opinion on my modest proposal?

Yes, I do.

You're an idiot.


June

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal (fwd)

[William Bacon]

-Caveat Lector-

YnrChldzWyld,
Why?

visit my web site at  http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon
My ICQ# is 79071904
for a precise list of the powers of the Federal Government linkto:
http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/Enumerated.html

On Sat, 12 May 2001, YnrChyldzWyld wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-

 On Sat, 12 May 2001, William Bacon wrote:
 Now that Mr. Shannon has called me the standard names, has anybody an
 opinion on my modest proposal?

 Yes, I do.

 You're an idiot.


 June

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[MIKE SPITZER]

-Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: Steve Wingate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal


-Caveat Lector-

I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon. Fortunately it is still
protected from oil drilling and mining operations.  :)

Steve

Good luck, my friend!

God speed,

Mike


=
Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT

  FROM THE DESK OF:

   *Michael Spitzer*[EMAIL PROTECTED]

   The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends
=







On 11 May 01, at 15:16, William Bacon wrote:

 Hello! Well it's been almost 3 days since I posted my ami an extremist?
 and no response from Steve Wingate. What's the matter? Your buzzword
 generator not working?
 Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
 proposal involves what these watermelon environmental groups can do to
 promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
 manner!
 Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
 and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
 is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
 eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
 perfectly free to join them. And of course I would stipulate that these
 wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
 sprawl, nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
 energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
 after? Anything wrong with this? An inquiring mind would like to know!
 Bill Bacon



ANOMALOUS IMAGES AND UFO FILES
http://www.anomalous-images.com

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal (fwd)

[YnrChyldzWyld]

-Caveat Lector-

On Sat, 12 May 2001, William Bacon wrote:
Why doesn't Steve Wingate Stay in the grand canyon and leave everybody
else alone?

Why don't YOU stay in your nuclear/toxic waste dump and do the same?


June

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

Mr. Shannon,

I think Mr. Bacon is telling them to practice what they preach. Nothing
tripy or twaddly about that.

Tenorlove

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

 From: Steve Wingate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon. Fortunately it is
 still
 protected from oil drilling and mining operations.  :)

You sure about that? An old acquaintance once told me that the Grand
Canyon was so deep that when they threw their beer cans in, they didn't
hear them hit bottom. ;-D

Tenorlove
busting Steve's chops

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==
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[William Shannon]

In a message dated 5/11/01 2:16:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
proposal involves what these "watermelon environmental" groups can do to
promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
manner!

Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
perfectly free to join them. 

And of course I would stipulate that these
wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
"sprawl", nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
after? 

What utter tripe...pure unfiltered Limbaugh/Corporate twaddle.
This is Marta Limbaugh, right?
If you weren't so busy being aurally penetrated by the porcine one and
actually took the time to think for yourself you'd see how remarkably silly
you sound.

Bill.

Re: [CTRL] A modest proposal

[Steve Wingate]

-Caveat Lector-

I am leaving for a hiking trip in the Grand Canyon. Fortunately it is still
protected from oil drilling and mining operations.  :)

Steve

On 11 May 01, at 15:16, William Bacon wrote:

 Hello! Well it's been almost 3 days since I posted my ami an extremist?
 and no response from Steve Wingate. What's the matter? Your buzzword
 generator not working?
 Well anyway, you might ask what is your modest proposal? Well my modest
 proposal involves what these watermelon environmental groups can do to
 promote their weird notions of environmental wackoism in a constitutional
 manner!
 Why don't these groups voluntaraliy move to some pristine wilderness area
 and use all of their proposals and develop a demonstration community that
 is environmentally friendly? And if living in caves, herding sheep and
 eating raw vegtables is appealling to other people, then people are
 perfectly free to join them. And of course I would stipulate that these
 wackos would of course leave people like me alone who favors suburban
 sprawl, nuclear power, all of the pro production proposals I made in my
 energy independence artilce alone, and we all would live happilly ever
 after? Anything wrong with this? An inquiring mind would like to know!
 Bill Bacon



ANOMALOUS IMAGES AND UFO FILES
http://www.anomalous-images.com

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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Howard R. Davis III]

 -Caveat Lector-

Robert Tatman wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a
sense of what I can
 only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that
the time has come
 to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep
and bear arms. What
 is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a
pedestal and
 worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence
that insists on
 "getting even" instead of resolving conflicts.

   Your wish to end the "culture of violence" is a worthy goal. I, too,
would like to see it end, so we are in agreement here. I also do not
like guns or weapons of any kind. Holding a gun in my hands does not
feel good to me in any way. I am a violinist, composer, inventor, and
artist. I would rather create than destroy. However, I understand the
fear of those who do not want to see the citizens of this country
disarmed while the government remains massively so and shows signs of
turning into a police state. And, because I acknowledge the fact that
there are many who would see the confiscation of guns as a last straw
and would resist it with violence, I would have to oppose the ending of
this right for that reason, if for no other. So, I wonder if you really
desire to end the "culture of violence" and are not opposed to limiting
our present rights which are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, that you
might embrace the modification of another of these amendments. Would not
an amendment to the Constitution which modified the first amendment to
allow the government to ban the depiction of violence in all
entertainment forms be something which you would support? This would
certainly go a long way towards ending the "culture of violence" you
wrote about and should garner more support than your proposal to repeal
the 2nd amendment. It seems to me that it would be an action towards
your goal which would be more acceptable to the majority of
conservatives who often favor censorship. Perhaps it might actually have
more difficulty among liberals, but I am sure that the importance of
ending the "culture of violence" would be a stronger motivating force
than any fear liberals might have of weakening the protection of
individual rights. And, we know from history that the loss of the
ability to show violence in entertainment would not significantly
diminish its quality or impact. Shakespeare was able to entertain and
enlighten millions with little (if any) depiction of violence. So would
not such a modification of the First Amendment be something which all
can support (except, of course, libertarians with their almost religious
belief in "rights").

Howard Davis

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Ric Carter wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 - Original Message -
 From: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what
  I can only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time
  has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 In some forums [fora?] you might indeed be flamed, but not here on
 CTRL.  Let me [as co-moderator] remind readers that personal attacks
 and criticisms are inappropriate here.  This is not UseNet.  Critique
 the writings, not the writer.  Any poster here may express totally
 insane ideas, but the poster him/herself is always an intelligent
 person of sparkling character.  Selah!


That's really beautiful man.

J2

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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Om

Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal]

[Teo One Thousand]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 5/5/99 11:33:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Teo, my response is simple: you cannot shoot someone without a firearm. I
 know
  that murder, assault, armed robbery, etc., are perfectly possible without
  guns...but they are *much* deadlier when committed with a gun. One of the
  deepest roots of our culture of violence is the assumption that each person
  has the right to be armed. If we are to change our culture to one that
 affirms
  life across the board, affirms true freedom, affirms the right of each
 person
  to seek happiness in his or her own way...if we are, in short, to turn
 America
  in a completely new direction, that *cannot* be accomplished without
 removing
  the threat posed by virtually uncontrolled private ownership of firearms.
I
 do
  know how to shoot--and precisely for that reason I feel a hell of a lot
 safer
  when there are no firearms around.

  Bob

A well reasoned proposal, but unfortunately not one likely to work.  The
affirmation of life in all its aspects is essential to stopping the
degradation that we as a society face.
I agree with you on your aims but disagree on the methods.  To change the
culture one must change the minds of the people.  Positive influence is
sorely needed and sorely lacking, thus we are where we are.
Teo1000

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Andrew Kieran]

 -Caveat Lector-

At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of
intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second
Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.


risk of being massively flamed? don't you mean an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY?

i'm sure there's a lot of people on this list that equate the idea of
giving up their guns with asking the government to shoot them in the head
or something.

this is almost like saying to america and russia in the cold war "hey guys,
relax, throw away your nukes, and everything will be ok, dude"

firearms are a problem, yes, but taking them away will achieve Sweet Fanny
Adams, maybe you should attempt to tackle the PROBLEM, and not the symptom,
when you cure a disease the symptoms will go away.

i'm sure you can understand why people want to keep guns, it makes them
feel secure, people are scared, of criminals, the government, loonies,
whatever. hardly surprising considering the massive panic over drug crime
and gangs and the like and the general image of the US (well, the one i've
always had) as an incredibly bad place to live unless you're ridiculously
rich or something

that and incidents like Waco and general US government shittyness
throughout it's entire history to anyone it doesn't agree with (ie. most
people who stop to think)

What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms. What
is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
"getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it might
have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and operate
an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those rights
if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to stringent
governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
services of the United States.

aye aye, so the chemist sells me some sleeping tablets and i overdose and
kill myself, is this the chemists fault? those who use the guns to hurt
people are responsible, not the manufacturers.

btw, i'm not defending the manufacturers, i personally hate anyone who will
happily make money out of manufacturing murder, that includes the WTO and
most major corporate-capitalist institutions

If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun lobby
itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority of
the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati

the rule of law IS the rule of force. he who has the force, makes the laws.

really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken the
U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

the libertarian party being used by evil-conspiracy-people?
surely not, aren't liberals, like, nice and stuff?
i suppose the politicians have managed to mutilate the meaning of that word
as well then.

Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to
the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
any other possible action that the people of the United States have genuinely
grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

and we'll do it with cars and mobile phones instead like everyone else. and
people get killed on the road, but that's ok, because that's only idiots

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout 

Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Ric Carter]

 -Caveat Lector-

- Original Message -
From: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what
 I can only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time
 has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

In some forums [fora?] you might indeed be flamed, but not here on
CTRL.  Let me [as co-moderator] remind readers that personal attacks
and criticisms are inappropriate here.  This is not UseNet.  Critique
the writings, not the writer.  Any poster here may express totally
insane ideas, but the poster him/herself is always an intelligent
person of sparkling character.  Selah!

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Teo One Thousand]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 5/3/99 6:08:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what I
 can
  only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time has
come
  to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.


This is not the answer.  At issue is the right to defend oneself, and guns
offer that to many people.  People do have an inalienable right to life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Having a weapon, whether it is a gun
or not is necessary in order to insure those right, at least sometimes, and
especially so today.  It is NEVER the instrument that is the culprit, but
ALWAYS the wielder of the instrument.  By themselves guns are no more deadly
than a big stone, but if used they both can kill.  It takes a killer to kill,
or perhaps mind controlled assassins, which most of the people here would
agree is a possibility.  If Johnny goody-two-shoes takes a gun and kills
little Jimmy then Johnny is the problem, NOT the gun.  Yes, guns are the
source of too much reverence, and yes their proliferation is a sad statement
on the nature of today's society, but outlawing them will not solve anything.
 Drugs are illegal, murder is illegal, rape is illegal, assault is illegal,
but they all STILL occur in huge numbers.  Which is just another reason why
guns should NOT be illegal.
Teo1000

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Robert Tatman wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what I can
 only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time has come
 to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms. What
 is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
 worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
 "getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it might
 have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
 shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
 desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
 government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

 You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and operate
 an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
 state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those rights
 if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
 society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
 Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
 the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to stringent
 governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
 services of the United States.

 If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
 undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun lobby
 itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority of
 the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
 law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati
 really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
 global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
 United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
 government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken the
 U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
 conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
 Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

 Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to
 the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
 any other possible action that the people of the United States have genuinely
 grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
 firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

 Bob


Bravo! Where do I sign up.

Joshua2

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal

[Jerry Rivas]

 -Caveat Lector-

It is that kind of thinking that leads to an oppressive government.  We have
created the world in which we live in.  These tools we use to kill are of
our own devising.  Where will revocation stop?  What will we take away next?
Man will kill with whatever tools suit him, can you not see that?  It is not
an object that kills, it is the evil in us all.

Let me remind you, it is against the our laws to kill one another.  Even
suicide is against the law.  Yet how is it that it still occurs?  It is a
flaw in the human spirit that allows this to happen and any law we can think
up will not stop it.  It is something that flows much deeper. We will endure
and inflict so much more suffering before we embrace the thing that
separates us from insects and animals.  There is a holocaust going on before
our very eyes and there is not enough love in the world to fight it.

Yes, there are those of us who would like a world without guns, hate and
death.  But that is not for this world, that is not for this time.  Be just,
be kind, and be devoted to righteousness.  And with hope, you shall not fail
in this.




-Original Message-
From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Robert Tatman
Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 2:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [CTRL] A Modest Proposal


 -Caveat Lector-

At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of what I
can
only call spiritual and emotional maturity to propose that the time has come
to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms.
What
is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and
worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on
"getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it
might
have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by
shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it
desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the
government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work.

You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and
operate
an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the
state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those
rights
if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a
society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms.
Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for
the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to
stringent
governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed
services of the United States.

If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to
undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun
lobby
itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority
of
the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of
law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati
really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a
global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened
United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal
government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken
the
U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a
conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the
Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument.

Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment
to
the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than
any other possible action that the people of the United States have
genuinely
grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of
firearms to maintain our self-esteem.

Bob


=
Robert F. Tatman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Remove "nospam" from the address to reply.

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