Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Harry Waddell]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 21:24:18 +0100
Rhialto  wrote:

> I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
> forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
> context, and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person.

These "normalizing" quotes are actually a critical part of a much bigger 
external context since Hitler is such a well known/reviled figure in history.

Since we know that we all have the potential for violence and dehumanization of 
an 
out-group, e.g. as exhibited in the "Stanford Prison Experiment", 
if anything, these quotes make him more terrifying, not less.

Harry Waddell


 

Automated report: NetBSD-current/i386 build success

[NetBSD Test Fixture]

The NetBSD-current/i386 build is working again.

The following commits were made between the last failed build and the
successful build:

2017.11.19.01.31.53 christos src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2,v 1.61
2017.11.19.01.31.53 christos src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2-o.real,v 
1.17
2017.11.19.01.46.29 christos src/usr.bin/config/mkioconf.c,v 1.35

Log files can be found at:


http://releng.NetBSD.org/b5reports/i386/commits-2017.11.html#2017.11.19.01.46.29

daily CVS update output

[NetBSD source update]

Updating src tree:
P src/external/cddl/osnet/sys/sys/kmem.h
P src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes
P src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2
P src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2-o.real
P src/share/dict/web2
P src/share/misc/acronyms-o.real
P src/sys/conf/files
P src/tests/lib/libc/sys/t_ptrace_wait.c
P src/usr.bin/config/defs.h
P src/usr.bin/config/main.c
P src/usr.bin/config/mkioconf.c
P src/usr.bin/config/sem.c
P src/usr.bin/make/var.c
P src/usr.bin/make/unit-tests/varcmd.exp
P src/usr.bin/make/unit-tests/varcmd.mk

Updating xsrc tree:


Killing core files:




Updating file list:
-rw-rw-r--  1 srcmastr  netbsd  54654249 Nov 19 03:04 ls-lRA.gz

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[David Holland]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 01:21:25PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:
 > I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
 > that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
 > wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
 > illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).
 > 
 > I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).
 > I have sent a pr (bin/52735, http://gnats.netbsd.org/52735) with a
 > patch.

You are completely missing the point of why those quotes are there.

-- 
David A. Holland
dholl...@netbsd.org

iwn failure on -current (XEN3_DOM0)

[Chavdar Ivanov]

Hi,

This may belong to port-xen@ or elsewhere, but as it is ran on
-current from today and the behaviour was different than a month or so
ago, I am here.

I used to run DOM0 on xen4.8, the wireless interface worked for the
DOM0, although I could never make the bridge work (it worked with the
wired wm0, though).

Now I get
...
iwn0: timeout waiting for adapter to initialize
iwn0: could not load firmware
iwn0: could not initialize hardware
iwn0: cannot assign link-local address
...

and the interface doesn't work (it, of course, works under the usual
/netbsd). Otherwise the rest seems to be OK, I was able to start a
couple of DOMUs, so the normal Xen setup with xenkernel 4.8.2 and
xentools 4.8.2 appeared functional (modulo a panic when I powered off
one of the DOMUs, no idea here).

Any pointers?

Chavdar Ivanov

-- 

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 09:24:18PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:
> I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
> forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
> context, and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person. Now if
> he was quoted at his worst, it might be obvious what sort of monster he
> was, but that is not the effect of these quotes. His crimes against
> humanity are trivialised by putting things he said next to people like
> Mahatma Gandhi.

I bet there are a lot of ultra-right wing nut cases that are surpremely
offended by a lot of things Mahatma Gandhi said.

Joerg

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Rhialto]

On Sat 18 Nov 2017 at 15:02:01 +0100, Hauke Fath wrote:
> And note the following excerpt from fortune(6):
> 
>  -oChoose only from potentially offensive aphorisms.  Please, 
> please,
>please request a potentially offensive fortune if and only 
> if you
>believe, deep down in your heart, that you are willing to be
>offended.  (And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o 
> rather
>than give us grief about it, okay?)

You may have noted that the mentioned quotes are NOT part of the
offensive set! (As an aside: The criteria for what is "offensive" seem
rather strange to me; they seem to be mostly religious or sexuality
based, something that is looked at rather differently in Europe than the
USA.)

I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
context, and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person. Now if
he was quoted at his worst, it might be obvious what sort of monster he
was, but that is not the effect of these quotes. His crimes against
humanity are trivialised by putting things he said next to people like
Mahatma Gandhi.

-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Rhialto  wrote:
 |It has come to my attention that FreeBSD has removed fortunes quoted
 |from Adolf Hitler a few days ago. I was very surprised that there

I found this a terribly ridiculous change and myself up the wall.
How useful is it cleaning up the room until it looks super clean
if under the carpet you have dirt so much that live on earth
vanishes?  Braindead, feeble and eggless to an extent that
causes goose bumps!  This can not be anything else than one more
symptom of the increasing trivialism in media and society
discourse we all pay for more and more.  In the 70s that
discourse was so that people actually understood (to the best of
my knowledge) to place those quotes in the actual context of
what they lead to.  Etc.  That committer is an idiot, and i was
more than astonished to see that he even is part of the core team
of FreeBSD!  Thank you.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 01:21:25PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:
> I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
> that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
> wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
> illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).

I don't get why someone would be appalled by many of them. There is
certainly nothing illegal about them, even here in Germany. Seriously,
if you don't know who Hitler was and why quotes from him should be seen
in a certain perspective, you should take a lesson on modern world
history and not run around being offended.

> I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).

I find myself strongly objecting to that.

Joerg

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Tom Ivar Helbekkmo]

m...@netbsd.org writes:

> For any fortune quote you add, you may remove another, no questions
> asked.
>
> For you, that means you can get rid of things you find even slightly
> offensive without needing to convince another person of it being
> "offensive enough".

I assume this was intended as ironic sarcasm.  Let me point out how that
seldom works out well on mailing lists -- or, for that matter, on USENET.

-tih
-- 
Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance
of Lisp.  Lisp is the most important idea in computer science.  --Alan Kay

Automated report: NetBSD-current/i386 build failure

[NetBSD Test Fixture]

This is an automatically generated notice of a NetBSD-current/i386
build failure.

The failure occurred on babylon5.netbsd.org, a NetBSD/amd64 host,
using sources from CVS date 2017.11.18.13.51.56.

An extract from the build.sh output follows:

#   compile  dm/dm_table.o
/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/tools/bin/i486--netbsdelf-gcc 
-O2 -g   -std=gnu99-Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes 
-Wpointer-arith -Wno-sign-compare  -Wsystem-headers   -Wno-traditional   
-Wa,--fatal-warnings  -Wreturn-type -Wswitch -Wshadow -Wcast-qual 
-Wwrite-strings -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wno-sign-compare -Werror   
-ffreestanding  -fno-strict-aliasing -Wno-pointer-sign -msoft-float -mno-mmx 
-mno-sse -mno-avx -fno-omit-frame-pointer -msoft-float -mno-mmx -mno-sse 
-mno-avx -fno-omit-frame-pointer  
-I/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/common/include 
--sysroot=/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/destdir 
-I/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/common/include  -nostdinc -I. 
-I/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/sys/modules/dm -isystem 
/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/sys -isystem 
/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/sys/arch -isystem 
/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/s
 rc/sys/../common/include -D_KERNEL -D_LKM -D_MODULE -DSYSCTL_INCLUDE_DESCR -c  
  /tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/sys/dev/dm/dm_table.c
--- dependall-cyclic ---
In file included from 
/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/external/cddl/osnet/dev/cyclic/cyclic.c:337:0:

/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/external/cddl/osnet/sys/sys/kmem.h:
 In function 'kmem_cache_alloc':

/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/external/cddl/osnet/sys/sys/kmem.h:82:15:
 error: 'KM_PUSHPAGE' undeclared (first use in this function)
  if (flags == KM_PUSHPAGE)
   ^

/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/external/cddl/osnet/sys/sys/kmem.h:82:15:
 note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it 
appears in
*** [cyclic.o] Error code 1
nbmake[8]: stopped in 
/tmp/bracket/build/2017.11.18.13.51.56-i386/src/sys/modules/cyclic
1 error

The following commits were made between the last successful build and
the failed build:

2017.11.18.13.51.56 christos src/external/cddl/osnet/sys/sys/kmem.h,v 1.8

Log files can be found at:


http://releng.NetBSD.org/b5reports/i386/commits-2017.11.html#2017.11.18.13.51.56

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[maya]

Hi,

I thought a bit about this after seeing FreeBSD remove the database.

I do agree there are offensive things, but it would be nice not to
have a daily debate for all of eternity about whether every single quote
is offensive enough to be removed. The FreeBSD method is tempting, but I
know a lot of people like fortunes, so I wanted to suggest a compromise
rule:

For any fortune quote you add, you may remove another, no questions
asked.

For you, that means you can get rid of things you find even slightly
offensive without needing to convince another person of it being
"offensive enough".

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Andy Ruhl]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:41 AM, Chavdar Ivanov  wrote:
> even if it is perhaps a proper quote, but is worth remembering and
> reminding people.

At the risk of not being politically correct, I agree.

The world seems intent on not remembering all history and even
changing parts of it to suit today's sensibilities. Which seems
dangerous to me. "All of it" (history) is "how we got here" and should
be learned from.

I'm not necessarily against removing stuff that is offensive to more
than a few people. But if there is value in remembering it to put it
into modern context, then we should think about it a bit.

Andy

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Hauke Fath]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 13:21:25 +0100, Rhialto wrote:
> It has come to my attention that FreeBSD has removed fortunes quoted
> from Adolf Hitler a few days ago. I was very surprised that there
> actually were such quotes!

Nihil novae... 


> I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
> that we do have the same quotes there. 

To my understanding, the fact that a certain quote is in the fortunes 
database does not mean the NetBSD project identifies with it in any way.

> Apart from those quotes being
> wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
> illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).

I call bullshit on this one. Using symbols of Nazi Germany, like the 
Hitlergruß or swastikas, and denying its crimes is a criminal offense 
here . But you can quote Adolf Hitler till the cows come home if that's 
all you do, as opposed to identifying with the ideology.
 
> I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).

If we officially decide that each and every fortune cookie must comply 
with NetBSD rules, and not hurt any feelings whatsoever, we should 
indeed remove all of fortune(6). 

Pulling the quotes unfortunately does not change the harsh historic 
reality one bit.

> I have sent a pr (bin/52735, http://gnats.netbsd.org/52735) with a
> patch.

>> How-To-Repeat:
> 
> $ fortune -m Hitler all

Just don't do that, then.

And note the following excerpt from fortune(6):

 -oChoose only from potentially offensive aphorisms.  Please, 
please,
   please request a potentially offensive fortune if and only 
if you
   believe, deep down in your heart, that you are willing to be
   offended.  (And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o 
rather
   than give us grief about it, okay?)

Cheerio,
hauke

-- 
Hauke Fath
Ernst-Ludwig-Straße 15
64625 Bensheim
Germany

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Chavdar Ivanov]

It is strange indeed to find them here, although not unexplainable,
the laws are different, one can buy "Mein Kampf" from any book shop in
the UK (this startled me when I came here some 28 years ago - it was
surrounded by "The Capital" and "The Communist Manifesto"...).

Anyway - in the proposed list I see
...

-The fact that Hitler was a political genius unmasks the nature of politics
-in general as no other can.
- -- Wilhelm Reich
...

which should stay; I would have kept also

-What luck for the rulers that men do not think.
- -- Adolf Hitler

even if it is perhaps a proper quote, but is worth remembering and
reminding people.

Chavdar Ivanov

On 18 November 2017 at 12:21, Rhialto  wrote:
> It has come to my attention that FreeBSD has removed fortunes quoted
> from Adolf Hitler a few days ago. I was very surprised that there
> actually were such quotes!
>
> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision=325781
> or
> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/commit/0271df5714d9ce5274f82889febb6536a2fdba59
>
> Then soon after that they went a bit overboard and removed basically all
> fortune cookies:
> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision=325828
>
> I tried to find any discussion on this in the FreeBSD mailing lists but
> could not find anything, save something from 10 years ago where
> obviously nothing was done in the end.
> http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/Re-who-wrote-this-td4249321.html
>
>
> I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
> that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
> wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
> illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).
>
> I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).
> I have sent a pr (bin/52735, http://gnats.netbsd.org/52735) with a
> patch.
>
>>How-To-Repeat:
>
> $ fortune -m Hitler all
>
> -Olaf.
> --
> ___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
> \X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.



-- 

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Kamil Rytarowski]

On 18.11.2017 13:21, Rhialto wrote:
> Apart from those quotes being
> wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
> illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).

I don't know whether quotes are 'admiration', there are more
controversial people like Stalin or Luther and you will end up like
FreeBSD soon removing all the fortunes.

German Wikipedia has a long list of quotes.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Rhialto]

It has come to my attention that FreeBSD has removed fortunes quoted
from Adolf Hitler a few days ago. I was very surprised that there
actually were such quotes!

https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision=325781
or
https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/commit/0271df5714d9ce5274f82889febb6536a2fdba59

Then soon after that they went a bit overboard and removed basically all
fortune cookies:
https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision=325828

I tried to find any discussion on this in the FreeBSD mailing lists but
could not find anything, save something from 10 years ago where
obviously nothing was done in the end.
http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/Re-who-wrote-this-td4249321.html


I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).

I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).
I have sent a pr (bin/52735, http://gnats.netbsd.org/52735) with a
patch.

>How-To-Repeat:

$ fortune -m Hitler all

-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature