Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At 7:05 PM -0800 on 4/2/03, James A. Donald wrote: We also have archaelogical evidence of human sacrifice in pre roman Britain ...and in pre-roman Europe in general. Besides the druids, there were several bog-slaughter :-) cults, among them the frisians (Hettinga is frisian for 'guy who lives on a hill' :-)). Pre-christian bog-men some a thousand years old or more, have been found with their throats slit, buried in various peat bogs from the British Isles up through Denmark. An ancient norse spring equinox holiday was celebrated by hanging a male of every available species, including a human, from the branches of a tree. O Tannenbaum, indeed... Nasty, brutish, and short, and all that. When life expectancy is in the mid-to-upper 20's, life, in general, is cheap. Speaking of liberal paganism, :-), Americans and other western European cultures didn't start worshiping their children until the mid-1850's, when infant (much less maternal) mortality dropped to low enough levels that an emotional investment in childhood development was even possible. Before 1840 or so, for the children was for the birds. Of course, after 1950 or so, Rachel Carson made even birds the object of re-mystification... Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 8.0 - not licensed for commercial use: www.pgp.com iQA/AwUBPoxX6cPxH8jf3ohaEQLN4QCfT3HwaRjYbhqnHlpzxbUYXchGmagAn1ra Tjrc2KIqYl/Zj4+IKosSZtmR =ushM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 07:44:43PM -0500, stuart wrote: Yes, wicca is a word with old roots. The inventor of wicca, Gerald Gardner, had a very good idea looking up the old english word for 'witch' when he concocted his story in the 50's. I have no clue who Gerald Gardner is, but you seriously need to do some research on the subject if you think he invented anything. He may well have started his own coven from scratch, but there are definitely wiccans and druids who can trace their lineage far back into antiquity. You might find it interesting, for example, to know that William Blake was the Arch-Druid of his time, in fact testified in court about it. For that matter, you might take a look at the spiritual activities of the Third Reich. Those of you who think National Socialism is a political movement know nothing about it. We are establishing a new religious order, and the SS are the high priests. Adolph Hitler Or perhaps a little closer to home, check out Aleister Crowley, William Yeats, and all that crowd. Magick, alchemy, the craft of the wise, are all long practiced spiritual paths, certainly as valid, probably even more, than christianity. How about vodun and santeria -- do you consider that to be just bullshit as well? I suppose it's pretty easy to say that about any and all religions, especially those you don't know anything about. Just because you've met people professing to be wiccans who don't seem to have any spiritual power is pretty irrelevant -- how many professed christers have you met who are exactly the same? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com We are now in America's Darkest Hour. http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org hoka hey!
Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 06:06 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote: On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 07:44:43PM -0500, stuart wrote: Yes, wicca is a word with old roots. The inventor of wicca, Gerald Gardner, had a very good idea looking up the old english word for 'witch' when he concocted his story in the 50's. I have no clue who Gerald Gardner is, but you seriously need to do some research on the subject if you think he invented anything. I learned a lot about Gardner when I was doing my research as the First Internet Witch Trial Judge. That you don't know who he is tells me you are _very_ lightly educated on this issue. --Tim May
Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 08:06:54PM -0800, Tim May wrote: On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 06:06 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote: On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 07:44:43PM -0500, stuart wrote: Yes, wicca is a word with old roots. The inventor of wicca, Gerald Gardner, had a very good idea looking up the old english word for 'witch' when he concocted his story in the 50's. I have no clue who Gerald Gardner is, but you seriously need to do some research on the subject if you think he invented anything. I learned a lot about Gardner when I was doing my research as the First Internet Witch Trial Judge. That you don't know who he is tells me you are _very_ lightly educated on this issue. Yes, you're right, I have little interest in the latter day religious movements, especially in Britain. And I'm only peripherally interested in ceremonial magick and ritual anyway -- always thought it rather akin to praying by reading a passage out of a psalter. If the spirit isn't powerful enough to overcome the person by storm and give whatever utterance is needed, what good is it? And along that vein, why would any genuine spiritual movement have need of dogma, rite, or ritual handed down from ages past. The spirits themselves are capable of instructing the seeker. Or so you'd think -- although I know that you, Tim, don't believe in such. At any rate, the concept that modern wicca has no validity because the chain of teachings was somehow broken somewhere along the line is laughable. Those who think that Gardner was the creator of latterday wicca might ask themselves what all those covens were doing who held regular ceremony doing spiritual warfare against the Third Reich during WWII, for instance. I think whatever Gardner was doing was more like coming out of the closet, eh? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
Steve Mynott wrote: Tyler Durden wrote: Well, I think there's an obvious disconnect on this issue. Clearly, pre-Christian religious practices survived Christian persecution throughout the ages. From the little I know, some of the practicing Druids actually have received a nearly unbroken chain of tradition. The modern druid traditions, as followed by Willian Blake, only date back to the eighteenth century. There is no unbroken chain of tradition. Completely correct. The stuff of modern neo-paganism is synthesised from bits of Celtic and Norse lore got from books (books written, of course, by Christian priests and monks who preserved the ancient pre-Christian stories - without them we would know nothing of the old stories); bits of renaissance early modern astrology and magic; 18th 19th century speculations; and stuff borrowed from India; and stuff that was just plain made up. Very little of it is older than about 1880, almost nothing older than about 1700. That doesn't mean it is bad, evil, or wrong; it does mean it probably has very little connection with anything our ancestors thought, said, or did 2,000 years ago. In a social sense it is fundamentalism's twin - both are reactions to a world dominated by liberal agnosticism, as it has been (at least amongst the educated ruling classes in western Europe) for the last 2 or 3 of centuries. It arose not in opposition to Christianity but in mourning for it. And if Christianity and her tomboy sister Islam are getting more powerful again, it might well be that neo-paganism, like the old-fashioned sort, is on the way out. There is certainly no significant unbroken pagan or magical tradition in Western Europe. Mediaeval and early modern magical practices in Western Europe were mostly post-Christian, or para-Christian, rather than survivals from paganism, and those that were survivals came through the *literary* tradition rather than through folk memory. Many of them arose in a Christian/Jewish context from a cobbling together of Classical and Cabbalistic sources with folk practices derived from debased versions of Catholic liturgy - people excluded from a theological understanding of Catholic ritual developed folk traditions that gave a magical or superstitious meaning to the rituals. Two books to read if anyone is interested: Religion and the Decline of Magic by Keith Thomas, and The Stripping of the Altars by Eamonn Duffy (the latter is basically an anti-Protestant polemic, but the vast amount of information in it about 15th century ritual makes fascinating reading, if you like that sort of thing)
Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
Harmon Seaver wrote... Duh! Why don't you ask the pope to prove god exiests? WTF do you mean by authentic anyway? That has to be patently one of the most stupid statements I've ever seen on this list. If someone says they worship Ishtar or Isis or Brighid or Gaia, who they fuck are you to say their faith isn't authentic? Why don't you go about asking christers to prove they are authentic? Well, I'm probably responsible for introducing the term authentic, so let me roll with the punches. What I meant was that there's a difference between a set of ancient practices handed down via pagans, and some shyster (ie, Joseph Smith) who somehow gets a hold of some 'secret information' (either via 'revelation' or searching through the stacks at the Strand), and decides to create a tradition, which is then passed off as ancient. The main reason I say this is that a real authentic pagan (or other) tradition was created over the course of hundreds and probably thousands of years. Medical and other knowledge has already passed through a very long sieve, and a large number of individuals contributed to it. WIth synthetic traditions, the origin is not only very recent, but occurs with a single individual. Of course, some older beliefs and practices may be restarted, but its not like the kind of detailed body of knowledge that gets passed down verbally is preserved. As a for instance, that Iceman they found up in the alps had on him some herbs which herbalists apparently still use (and some of which do apparently have antibiotic and other properties). So in this sense, the herbalists that have apparently received a real tradition have inherited information developed thousands of years back. THAT'S authentic. The Mormons aren't. -TD From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Tyler Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids! Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:45:10 -0600 On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 08:17:53PM +0100, Steve Mynott wrote: Tyler Durden wrote: Well, I think there's an obvious disconnect on this issue. Clearly, pre-Christian religious practices survived Christian persecution throughout the ages. From the little I know, some of the practicing Druids actually have received a nearly unbroken chain of tradition. The modern druid traditions, as followed by Willian Blake, only date back to the eighteenth century. There is no unbroken chain of tradition. Very little is known about the real pre-Roman druids, since they left no written traces. The little that is known (mistletoe and oaks) has come from Roman reports. The Romans also claim the druids burnt livestock and humans alive in huge wickermen. Human sacrifice quite often reported by the powers that be who are trying to destroy the credibility of other religions. The Romans were, by all accounts, into a heavy persecution of druidry, not just in Britain, but all of Europe. The catholic church reported widespread human sacrifice in the americas as well. I doubt these practices would survive unnoticed in most modern European societies. A lot of the blood sacrifice and sacrifice of virgins has been incredibly distorted by ignorant people. There are real blood rituals, but more often involve menstrual blood, and the menstrual blood of virgins being especially powerful. There are also the sexual sacrifices of virginity in many pre-christer religious traditions around the world -- no killing involved. But the fact that Wicca (as the movement is known today) does not necessarily represent anything authentic doesn't mean that authentic practicing pagans don't exist today (which was Harmon's main point, I believe). The burden of truth lies with you and Harmon to prove authentic pagans exist. Duh! Why don't you ask the pope to prove god exiests? WTF do you mean by authentic anyway? That has to be patently one of the most stupid statements I've ever seen on this list. If someone says they worship Ishtar or Isis or Brighid or Gaia, who they fuck are you to say their faith isn't authentic? Why don't you go about asking christers to prove they are authentic? Given that, again, virtually nothing is known about pagan practices your proof would be quite impossible. Which pagan practices? And you know that how? You've gone around the world investigating indigenous religions past and present? Perhaps you'd like to explain to us how Shinto, for example, isn't a known practice. Or the various African or South Central American traditions -- or NA for that matter. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
Or perhaps a little closer to home, check out Aleister Crowley, William Yeats, and all that crowd. Magick, alchemy, the craft of the wise, are all long practiced spiritual paths, certainly as valid, probably even more, than christianity. Well, I think there's an obvious disconnect on this issue. Clearly, pre-Christian religious practices survived Christian persecution throughout the ages. From the little I know, some of the practicing Druids actually have received a nearly unbroken chain of tradition. As for the modern movement of wicca, I had assumed that was more of a recent invention: some dude basically read about pagan practices/ideas and synthesized something more highly consumable by westerners/Americans. Kind of the Pagan version of Mormonism. But the fact that Wicca (as the movement is known today) does not necessarily represent anything authentic doesn't mean that authentic practicing pagans don't exist today (which was Harmon's main point, I believe). ALeister Crowley, though, I understood to be a little more on the synthetic side, but Crowley never seems to have fully intended that anyone take what he was doing as an inherited tradition. I put Crowley in the Blavatsky category: a real unique, free-thinker with perhaps a drop or two of quackery, who borrowed heavily from existing traditions but giving them a modern spin. And of course, often misunderstood by many of his supposed followers (ie, bored suburban headbanging teenagers), and critics alike as being some form of devil worship or other chintzy Hollywoodish crap (like that laughable Church of Satan). -TD From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids! Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:06:43 -0600 On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 07:44:43PM -0500, stuart wrote: Yes, wicca is a word with old roots. The inventor of wicca, Gerald Gardner, had a very good idea looking up the old english word for 'witch' when he concocted his story in the 50's. I have no clue who Gerald Gardner is, but you seriously need to do some research on the subject if you think he invented anything. He may well have started his own coven from scratch, but there are definitely wiccans and druids who can trace their lineage far back into antiquity. You might find it interesting, for example, to know that William Blake was the Arch-Druid of his time, in fact testified in court about it. For that matter, you might take a look at the spiritual activities of the Third Reich. Those of you who think National Socialism is a political movement know nothing about it. We are establishing a new religious order, and the SS are the high priests. Adolph Hitler Or perhaps a little closer to home, check out Aleister Crowley, William Yeats, and all that crowd. Magick, alchemy, the craft of the wise, are all long practiced spiritual paths, certainly as valid, probably even more, than christianity. How about vodun and santeria -- do you consider that to be just bullshit as well? I suppose it's pretty easy to say that about any and all religions, especially those you don't know anything about. Just because you've met people professing to be wiccans who don't seem to have any spiritual power is pretty irrelevant -- how many professed christers have you met who are exactly the same? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com We are now in America's Darkest Hour. http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org hoka hey! _
Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
Steve Mynott wrote... The burden of truth lies with you and Harmon to prove authentic pagans exist. Well I don't know if I cared enough to call it a 'burden'! You may be correct wrt European pagan traditions. But certainly Santeria and the assoicated Cajun varieties are a different matter, no? Of course, these religions come to North American from Africa by way of nominally catholic peoples which diguised pagan dieties as Catholic saints. But I have always assumed that that these were basically NOT synthetic in the way Wiccans seem to be. And while I assume there's no controversy on these facts, I believe it may be possible to prove (to the extent that anything can be proven) some distinctly non Indo-European roots to Santeria (right now I'm thinking of the musical instruments that only Santarians are taught to play...some of them have no Euro-equivalent, but plenty of African). As for Blake Co, you may be right, but I had thought that there was some supposed connection to very hidden Druidic roots. -TD From: Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tyler Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids! Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:17:53 +0100 Tyler Durden wrote: Well, I think there's an obvious disconnect on this issue. Clearly, pre-Christian religious practices survived Christian persecution throughout the ages. From the little I know, some of the practicing Druids actually have received a nearly unbroken chain of tradition. The modern druid traditions, as followed by Willian Blake, only date back to the eighteenth century. There is no unbroken chain of tradition. Very little is known about the real pre-Roman druids, since they left no written traces. The little that is known (mistletoe and oaks) has come from Roman reports. The Romans also claim the druids burnt livestock and humans alive in huge wickermen. I doubt these practices would survive unnoticed in most modern European societies. But the fact that Wicca (as the movement is known today) does not necessarily represent anything authentic doesn't mean that authentic practicing pagans don't exist today (which was Harmon's main point, I believe). The burden of truth lies with you and Harmon to prove authentic pagans exist. Given that, again, virtually nothing is known about pagan practices your proof would be quite impossible. _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Silly wiccan, tricks are for kids!
Tyler Durden wrote: Well, I think there's an obvious disconnect on this issue. Clearly, pre-Christian religious practices survived Christian persecution throughout the ages. From the little I know, some of the practicing Druids actually have received a nearly unbroken chain of tradition. The modern druid traditions, as followed by Willian Blake, only date back to the eighteenth century. There is no unbroken chain of tradition. Very little is known about the real pre-Roman druids, since they left no written traces. The little that is known (mistletoe and oaks) has come from Roman reports. The Romans also claim the druids burnt livestock and humans alive in huge wickermen. I doubt these practices would survive unnoticed in most modern European societies. But the fact that Wicca (as the movement is known today) does not necessarily represent anything authentic doesn't mean that authentic practicing pagans don't exist today (which was Harmon's main point, I believe). The burden of truth lies with you and Harmon to prove authentic pagans exist. Given that, again, virtually nothing is known about pagan practices your proof would be quite impossible.
