Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
David Bremner da...@tethera.net writes: Tiago Bortoletto Vaz ti...@debian.org writes: Fine then. Can we have a word from bursaries team on this? Thanks, The bursaries team has not yet been formally constituted, so can't really make policy pronouncements. A group of us are in the process of putting together some general rules for how decisions are made [0,1]. We haven't discussed DebCamp specifically yet, but since our goal is to have a consistent set of rules from year to year (and hence need some generality), it seems unlikely that we would mention sprints specifically. So a good work plan, is a good work plan, regardless of the structure it is contained in. On the other hand, I think it is reasonable to discuss whether collaboration is a necessary part of a debcamp plan. My reading of Marga's mail is that she feels it is. I certainly see the point that people don't _need_ to be at debcamp to work on a project alone. On the other hand, extapolating from my own experience, I'm sure there is plenty of individual work on Debian that happens because people are at debcamp, that would not otherwise happen. I think this is very important. Going to DebCamp and reserving this time exclusively for Debian is very different from just doing some Debian work in ones free time. And I at least (and I guess many others) would not just allocate the same time to Debian work if it were not for DebCamp. This is independant from wheter I work on my own on these things or with a team or in the context of a sprint. To me this seems like a very important aspect of DebCamp that should not be lost. To me even a work plan to just bring all their packages back in to good shape and update them to the latest best practices would be totally fine. As far as people's concerns about people not making productive use of their time at debcamp or debconf, I think one point that we did have strong concensus on is that we want what did you accomplish at previous debcamp / debconf to play an important role in the evaluation process [2] If that's really a concern, then this seems like the better approach to me than moving towards a team work only/mostly event. But at least during the DebCamps I attended I did not see this as a major problem. Gaudenz signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
Hi, On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 05:58:21PM +0100, Margarita Manterola wrote: ... This is not a silver bullet to avoid people coming to DebCamp on vacation. But we think it's something that will help many people make the most of that time. [quoting my mail to cont...@debconf.org] I beg to disagree. While I certainly would find a sprint topic I see no reason at all to force people into defining a sprint topic in contrast to a certain work plan. I considered DebCamp always a very productive time and pressing people into predefined workplans might IMHO reduce the creative environment. Are there any concerns with this plan? Yes. I never had the impression that people are doing vacation at DebCamp. While we had some non-hacking activities at DebCamp this was no difference to DebConf and this is IMHO part of the sense of meeting Debianistas. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
Hi, On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Andreas Tille andr...@an3as.eu wrote: This is not a silver bullet to avoid people coming to DebCamp on vacation. But we think it's something that will help many people make the most of that time. [quoting my mail to cont...@debconf.org] I beg to disagree. While I certainly would find a sprint topic I see no reason at all to force people into defining a sprint topic in contrast to a certain work plan. I considered DebCamp always a very productive time and pressing people into predefined workplans might IMHO reduce the creative environment. You seem to not have realized that I did not say the same thing of whatever was discussed in content@ (because I'm not in that alias, i don't really know the exact details of what was discussed). Nowhere in my mail I said that participation in a sprint was a requirement. The idea is that it will simplify the DebCamp plan into being I'll participate in the Sprint X for the people that will participate in a sprint. Yes. I never had the impression that people are doing vacation at DebCamp. While we had some non-hacking activities at DebCamp this was no difference to DebConf and this is IMHO part of the sense of meeting Debianistas. Well, other people had other impressions. But I explicitly stated quite a bunch of goal which are not to avoid people on vacation. Please evaluate those goals instead. -- Besos, Marga ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
On 19/01/15 02:00, Richard Hartmann wrote: What metric would be used to determine which sprints are accepted? Or is that simply left to the content team to deal with? Almost none, the call for sprints is needed to assign the rooms and schedule mostly, so others can plan to join in. Also the information might be valuable to the bursaries team to evaluate the working plan. -- Seek simplicity, and distrust it. -- Whitehead's Rule Saludos /\/\ /\ `/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
Hello dc-team, I take off my Chairs hat now, please read the following lines as my own PoV. On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 04:23:00PM +0100, Margarita Manterola wrote: On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Andreas Tille andr...@an3as.eu wrote: This is not a silver bullet to avoid people coming to DebCamp on vacation. But we think it's something that will help many people make the most of that time. [quoting my mail to cont...@debconf.org] I beg to disagree. While I certainly would find a sprint topic I see no reason at all to force people into defining a sprint topic in contrast to a certain work plan. I considered DebCamp always a very productive time and pressing people into predefined workplans might IMHO reduce the creative environment. You seem to not have realized that I did not say the same thing of whatever was discussed in content@ (because I'm not in that alias, i don't really know the exact details of what was discussed). IMHO Andreas was just being kind and sharing with the whole group his opinion, which had already been expressed within the content team. Thanks Andreas. Nowhere in my mail I said that participation in a sprint was a requirement. The idea is that it will simplify the DebCamp plan into being I'll participate in the Sprint X for the people that will participate in a sprint. You did not mention that it was a requirement, but at the same time you said that people would not be asked about individual DebCamp plan, and that later on, we would publish the list of sprints and let people sign up for them. It also gave me the impression that being part of a sprint was a requirement. Just to be super clear: in this new structure, will someone be able to participate in DebCamp because it collaborates with persons X, Y and Z, considering that face-to-face interactions are beneficial to their work, aka Debian, even though they do not fit in any sprint? That was contentious point. Having said that, encouraging sprints to happen is great and no one in the content team disagrees with that. Yes. I never had the impression that people are doing vacation at DebCamp. While we had some non-hacking activities at DebCamp this was no difference to DebConf and this is IMHO part of the sense of meeting Debianistas. Well, other people had other impressions. But I explicitly stated quite a bunch of goal which are not to avoid people on vacation. Please evaluate those goals instead. The goals are good, however they do not imply sprints as a requirement. IMHO we should try to find a middle ground here, otherwise I see it as a way too structured plan, which risks to compromise DebCamp spontaneity. Tassia. ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
Tiago Bortoletto Vaz ti...@debian.org writes: Fine then. Can we have a word from bursaries team on this? Thanks, The bursaries team has not yet been formally constituted, so can't really make policy pronouncements. A group of us are in the process of putting together some general rules for how decisions are made [0,1]. We haven't discussed DebCamp specifically yet, but since our goal is to have a consistent set of rules from year to year (and hence need some generality), it seems unlikely that we would mention sprints specifically. So a good work plan, is a good work plan, regardless of the structure it is contained in. On the other hand, I think it is reasonable to discuss whether collaboration is a necessary part of a debcamp plan. My reading of Marga's mail is that she feels it is. I certainly see the point that people don't _need_ to be at debcamp to work on a project alone. On the other hand, extapolating from my own experience, I'm sure there is plenty of individual work on Debian that happens because people are at debcamp, that would not otherwise happen. As far as people's concerns about people not making productive use of their time at debcamp or debconf, I think one point that we did have strong concensus on is that we want what did you accomplish at previous debcamp / debconf to play an important role in the evaluation process [2] -- [0]: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Teams/Assistance/Meetings/Bursaries [1]: These rules will obviously have to be ratified by the larger team, but it would obviously be better for people to participate in the discussion before that stage. [2]: Obviously with adjustment for first timers. ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
also sprach David Bremner da...@tethera.net [2015-01-19 19:56 +0100]: On the other hand, extapolating from my own experience, I'm sure there is plenty of individual work on Debian that happens because people are at debcamp, that would not otherwise happen. I've always been in this camp, just ftr. As far as people's concerns about people not making productive use of their time at debcamp or debconf, I think one point that we did have strong concensus on is that we want what did you accomplish at previous debcamp / debconf to play an important role in the evaluation process [2] ++ on this. While it might take us a year or two, generally establishing an understanding among our participants the we want DebConf to be bloody good in terms of enabling people getting stuff done and also in terms of content and being clear that we will use past experience for future decisions should encourage people to put effort into proposals of sprints and events, and thus improve the whole conf. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town or Montreal? https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
also sprach Tassia Camoes Araujo tas...@acaia.ca [2015-01-19 18:16 +0100]: Just to be super clear: in this new structure, will someone be able to participate in DebCamp because it collaborates with persons X, Y and Z, considering that face-to-face interactions are beneficial to their work, aka Debian, even though they do not fit in any sprint? What keeps those four people from sprinting? All we're asking is for people to come with somewhat of a plan, not unprepared. Nobody will force them to stick to the plan once they're here, but not having any plan when attending may also mean keeping other people from doing work. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town or Montreal? https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 06:54:16PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Tassia Camoes Araujo tas...@acaia.ca [2015-01-19 18:16 +0100]: Just to be super clear: in this new structure, will someone be able to participate in DebCamp because it collaborates with persons X, Y and Z, considering that face-to-face interactions are beneficial to their work, aka Debian, even though they do not fit in any sprint? What keeps those four people from sprinting? The point is: what about those who have a non-sprint plan? Will they be considered by boursaries team? Or do we want them to pretend a sprint to just convince the burocratics that they will be doing some work during Debcamp? All we're asking is for people to come with somewhat of a plan, not unprepared. Nobody will force them to stick to the plan once they're here, but not having any plan when attending may also mean keeping other people from doing work. Nobody has said Debcamp should sponsor people without a work plan. The question is about those who want to get work done without organizing/submiting something in a form of a sprint. Is there any objection on this? Can we agree that they are not mutually exclusive? Bests, -- tiago ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
Hi, The point is: what about those who have a non-sprint plan? Will they be considered by boursaries team? The bursaries team will need to decide what they will do, and nothing in my mail claimed otherwise. We want to strongly encourage people to participate in the sprints and see how that goes. The goal of the sprints is to help people work in teams, both for those that want people to work with them and for those that want to help but are unsure how. The goal is not to magically solve the problem that some people don't work during DebCamp (those people could sign up for a sprint and then don't do anything anyway). My mail INTENTIONALLY doesn't say that participating in a sprint is a requirement for DebCamp because this was criticized in the original proposal. It says that bursaries should take into account sprint participation, not the other way round. -- Besos, Marga ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
also sprach Tiago Bortoletto Vaz ti...@debian.org [2015-01-19 19:04 +0100]: The point is: what about those who have a non-sprint plan? So let's avoid the term sprints and call it group meetings? If you really do want to come to DebConf to work on your own packages or your own pet project, then say so. Why not schedule that and see, maybe it'll attract your future co-maintainers? Nobody has said Debcamp should sponsor people without a work plan. The question is about those who want to get work done without organizing/submiting something in a form of a sprint. Is there any objection on this? Can we agree that they are not mutually exclusive? I have no objection. I just think we should frame DebCamp as work camp and be crystal clear about our expectations. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town or Montreal? https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 07:15:27PM +0100, Margarita Manterola wrote: Hi, The point is: what about those who have a non-sprint plan? Will they be considered by boursaries team? The bursaries team will need to decide what they will do, and nothing in my mail claimed otherwise. We want to strongly encourage people to participate in the sprints and see how that goes. The goal of the sprints is to help people work in teams, both for those that want people to work with them and for those that want to help but are unsure how. The goal is not to magically solve the problem that some people don't work during DebCamp (those people could sign up for a sprint and then don't do anything anyway). My mail INTENTIONALLY doesn't say that participating in a sprint is a requirement for DebCamp because this was criticized in the original proposal. It says that bursaries should take into account sprint participation, not the other way round. Fine then. Can we have a word from bursaries team on this? Thanks, -- tiago ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 9:56 AM, martin f krafft madd...@debconf.org wrote: * Schedule rooms and days for the sprints (scheduling team). We don't really have rooms available to us during DebCamp. Maybe we can rent some, if we are not too late and budget permits, but in general, I envisioned the classic DebCamp when I negotiated the contract and only reserved a big hacklab and a bigger room for video team and orga. Sprints at PyCon are sometimes just 3 or 4 people and are given a table in a large room with other sprints.People sign up for sprints so the room/table allocations can be worked out ahead of time, so there is a need to sign up and get a head count. ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Margarita Manterola margamanter...@gmail.com wrote: For DebConf15 we would like to try something new regarding DebCamp. Instead of asking each person to come up with a DebCamp plan, we'd like to make a Call for Sprints together with the Call for Talks, encouraging people to think on things that they would like to work on that will benefit from more people working together on the same thing. Then, later on, publish the list of sprints and let people sign up for them. What metric would be used to determine which sprints are accepted? Or is that simply left to the content team to deal with? I am not objecting, mind. I just want to make sure that we are all agreed on the underlying assumptions. The sprints don't need to last the whole DebCamp, we could have sprints that ar 1 or 2 days long. They also are not exclusive to DebConf, if there's a team that knows they'd benefit more from having sprints during DebConf, we could also make that happen. Just to make sure, the first DebConf should actually read DebCamp? Else, I like it. Richard ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] DC15 - Sprints during DebCamp (and DebConf)
also sprach Margarita Manterola margamanter...@gmail.com [2015-01-18 17:58 +0100]: What we would need to do: * Publish the call for sprints and coordinate submissions (content team). * Schedule rooms and days for the sprints (scheduling team). We don't really have rooms available to us during DebCamp. Maybe we can rent some, if we are not too late and budget permits, but in general, I envisioned the classic DebCamp when I negotiated the contract and only reserved a big hacklab and a bigger room for video team and orga. However, I've asked for their vacancies and will report. * When evaluating the DebCamp plan, take into account if people have signed up for sprints (bursaries team). * Add summit support for the call for sprints (infra team) Are there any concerns with this plan? I like it. Thank you for the initiative. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town or Montreal? https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
