Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 05:19:51AM +, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > - On 7 November 2013 04:41, Luc Verhaegen wrote: > > >> While the open hardware projects are very interesting, anytime soon I > >> can only get the dx.com etc Chinese stuff. And the netbooks that have > >> things I like (HDMI, 1 GB RAM) tend to be based o the VIA 8850. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WonderMedia > > Thanks, this helps a lot. So the 8880 is the best then. Wonder if one > can get Debian on something like this: > http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10-Laptop-VIA-WM-8880-Dual-Core-1-5GHz-1GB-RAM-4GB-ROM-Android-4-2/1346765143.html Such a thing will always be quite difficult to bring up on your own. Even if the bootloader and the kernel are free (and VIA is not breaching the GPL), there still is way to much work for a single persons free time. > Which means that an Allwinner-based netbook is preferrable because the > linux-sunxi community know something about it? I did try again now, > but just can't find one with the necessary specs (HDMI and 1GB RAM). > They are all either worse or VIA. The closest is this one > http://www.pandawill.com/h6-10-inch-notebook-android-403-1g-ram-4gb-laptop-pc-black-p65515.html > , but it appears to have no HDMI. That is the state of things currently. > Ideally I'd like to find someone who already knows how to handle a > particular model. Should I try the linux-sunxi mailing list? It seems > very technical with patches etc. If you think that sunxi is technical, then you better not try to bring up a wondermedia device. > Understood but I just can't handle screen tapping as an entry method. > And they are churning SOME out. But modern ones seem to be all VIA > based. Luc Verhaegen. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131107055722.gh22...@skynet.be
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
- On 7 November 2013 04:41, Luc Verhaegen wrote: >> While the open hardware projects are very interesting, anytime soon I >> can only get the dx.com etc Chinese stuff. And the netbooks that have >> things I like (HDMI, 1 GB RAM) tend to be based o the VIA 8850. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WonderMedia Thanks, this helps a lot. So the 8880 is the best then. Wonder if one can get Debian on something like this: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10-Laptop-VIA-WM-8880-Dual-Core-1-5GHz-1GB-RAM-4GB-ROM-Android-4-2/1346765143.html > Beware of the ton of issues you will have with any ARM platform. Issues > which are largely fixed, or getting fixed, by the linux-sunxi community > for allwinner. Which means that an Allwinner-based netbook is preferrable because the linux-sunxi community know something about it? I did try again now, but just can't find one with the necessary specs (HDMI and 1GB RAM). They are all either worse or VIA. The closest is this one http://www.pandawill.com/h6-10-inch-notebook-android-403-1g-ram-4gb-laptop-pc-black-p65515.html , but it appears to have no HDMI. Ideally I'd like to find someone who already knows how to handle a particular model. Should I try the linux-sunxi mailing list? It seems very technical with patches etc. > As for netbooks, that format is not too popular right now, so the cheap > chinese sweatshops are not churning many out. Understood but I just can't handle screen tapping as an entry method. And they are churning SOME out. But modern ones seem to be all VIA based. -- Yours, Mikhail Ramendik Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do not reflect the views of any organization -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANq10gtma7o8y_B-UqJanFf4H_sGC7qi=rks9d-j_6l6gep...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 11:16:05PM +, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > On 6 November 2013 23:06, Luc Verhaegen wrote: > > >> Cool. But I guess the A10 GPU (Mali400) is pretty basic compared to > >> the aforementioned PowerVR? > > > > Not really. Mali400 is a pretty respectable package still, > > Thanks! And speaking of this - is it true that the VIA 8850 also has > Mali400, and how does that version compare to the ones in A10 and A20? > > While the open hardware projects are very interesting, anytime soon I > can only get the dx.com etc Chinese stuff. And the netbooks that have > things I like (HDMI, 1 GB RAM) tend to be based o the VIA 8850. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WonderMedia Beware of the ton of issues you will have with any ARM platform. Issues which are largely fixed, or getting fixed, by the linux-sunxi community for allwinner. As for netbooks, that format is not too popular right now, so the cheap chinese sweatshops are not churning many out. Lkcls tablet project is turning out to be quite a lot of painstaking work, and taking much longer than anyone expected. Perhaps his tablet experience will open the door for an a20 based netbook in the next 6-12 months :) Luc Verhaegen. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131107044137.gg22...@skynet.be
Re: Porting for dummies?
I'm subscribed, no need to CC me. On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > Well, I can temporarily install the binary blobs, can't I? These ones: > http://linux-sunxi.org/Binary_drivers . They even have a rebuilt package > specifically for debian. I know I'm on my own re stability of that. But then > eventually, as I hope, LIMA will mature and make it into Debian. I tend to avoid proprietary things at all costs. I think it would be a much more productive use of your time to try out the in-development lima drivers, which are faster than the proprietary MALI driver anyway and probably more stable. > Aha - thanks! It's actually a Debian i686 system but it would fit even > better (current arm architectures are 32 bit). There is no Debian i686 architecture yet, are you using a Debian derivative? In any case you should write your code in a portable way so it can work on every architecture. Don't assume 32-bit, don't assume little-endian, don't assume memory layout, don't assume unaligned memory access is OK. Debian architectures alone have a wide variety of characteristics and there are architectures Debian doesn't support yet. https://wiki.debian.org/ArchitectureSpecificsMemo -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6Eoio5xmijU1h0nvnMniXu+yjTsJ=HshYxt=gwnu4d...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Porting for dummies?
On 7 November 2013 01:30, Paul Wise wrote: > > Debian's version of OpenGL is called Mesa and it supports normal > OpenGL on armel too, it would not be hardware-accelerated yet though > because there aren't any free drivers for that in Debian. Same goes > for hardware-acceleration of OpenGLES on ARM, no free drivers in > Debian yet. Some reverse engineering projects and free drivers exist > outside of Debian though: > > https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile#software-drivers > Well, I can temporarily install the binary blobs, can't I? These ones: http://linux-sunxi.org/Binary_drivers . They even have a rebuilt package specifically for debian. I know I'm on my own re stability of that. But then eventually, as I hope, LIMA will mature and make it into Debian. > You can install OpenGLES (libgles1-mesa-dev or libgles2-mesa-dev) on > your standard Debian amd64 PC system, try to build your code and > change it until it doesn't fail. Aha - thanks! It's actually a Debian i686 system but it would fit even better (current arm architectures are 32 bit). > This will be hardware-accelerated and > be easier than messing around with cross-compilers. > > Here are some guides for converting OpenGL code to OpenGLES, any > issues you encounter should be fixable by using a search engine > though. > > http://pandorawiki.org/Porting_to_GLES_from_GL > > http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/porting-opengl-games-to-android-on-intel-atom-processors-part-1 > http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES > Thanks a LOT. Exactly what I needed. Looks like I can give a lot of trying to the port attempt before deciding on hardware. -- Yours, Mikhail Ramendik Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do not reflect the views of any organization
Re: Porting for dummies?
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > Is there a tutorial/doc/manual anywhere on porting OpenGL code to > OpenGLES, and ideally also on cross-compiling for ARM+OpenGLES under > Debian, so that I could try to do it even before I get any real ARM > hardware? (It seems, from discussions here, that there might be > interesting options a few months down the line). Debian's version of OpenGL is called Mesa and it supports normal OpenGL on armel too, it would not be hardware-accelerated yet though because there aren't any free drivers for that in Debian. Same goes for hardware-acceleration of OpenGLES on ARM, no free drivers in Debian yet. Some reverse engineering projects and free drivers exist outside of Debian though: https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile#software-drivers You can install OpenGLES (libgles1-mesa-dev or libgles2-mesa-dev) on your standard Debian amd64 PC system, try to build your code and change it until it doesn't fail. This will be hardware-accelerated and be easier than messing around with cross-compilers. Here are some guides for converting OpenGL code to OpenGLES, any issues you encounter should be fixable by using a search engine though. http://pandorawiki.org/Porting_to_GLES_from_GL http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/porting-opengl-games-to-android-on-intel-atom-processors-part-1 http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES Debian plans to add cross-compilers for our next release: https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/CrossToolchains Until they reach Debian, here is a page about how to build cross-compilers: https://wiki.debian.org/MultiarchCrossToolchainBuild -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6EQYnhWZsKqp+B0OXA81qBMEja1NyWqvUjH89Eb=fk...@mail.gmail.com
Porting for dummies?
Hello, Is there a tutorial/doc/manual anywhere on porting OpenGL code to OpenGLES, and ideally also on cross-compiling for ARM+OpenGLES under Debian, so that I could try to do it even before I get any real ARM hardware? (It seems, from discussions here, that there might be interesting options a few months down the line). Thanks! -- Yours, Mikhail Ramendik Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do not reflect the views of any organization -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/canq10gv1x0at75xiwapwaicyzqdrm5bu4aom1+v3ts0qz5i...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On 6 November 2013 23:06, Luc Verhaegen wrote: >> Cool. But I guess the A10 GPU (Mali400) is pretty basic compared to >> the aforementioned PowerVR? > > Not really. Mali400 is a pretty respectable package still, Thanks! And speaking of this - is it true that the VIA 8850 also has Mali400, and how does that version compare to the ones in A10 and A20? While the open hardware projects are very interesting, anytime soon I can only get the dx.com etc Chinese stuff. And the netbooks that have things I like (HDMI, 1 GB RAM) tend to be based o the VIA 8850. -- Yours, Mikhail Ramendik Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do not reflect the views of any organization -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/canq10gutfsbryll1e0mknzqpwhjekkd0hnwotpau2lvxtmp...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 07:08:38PM +, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > On 6 November 2013 18:45, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > Cool. But I guess the A10 GPU (Mali400) is pretty basic compared to > the aforementioned PowerVR? Not really. Mali400 is a pretty respectable package still, and it just got a boost by doubling the core count in Mali450 (the first examples should be shipping around now - that's how recent it is). It cannot keep up with the very latest generation of GLES3 mobile cores, especially since it is a pure GLES2 core with separate shaders, but when it featured in the galaxy s2 and s3 it was a real gorilla in the room. On the A20 though, it is a 2PP version only, which supposedly clocks to only 350MHz. Still, it should be able to keep the A20 memory bus well busy. More importantly though, it should soon get a proper mesa driver which should perform close to the binary driver. Luc Verhagen. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131106230650.gf22...@skynet.be
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 10:32:01PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > > >> yeees, that CPU Card runs debian. first thing i installed when i got it :) > > > > Cool. But I guess the A10 GPU (Mali400) is pretty basic compared to > > the aforementioned PowerVR? > > we're using the A20 which is dual-core, but yes it is. part of the > issue there is that the moron in charge of MALI at ARM - the one who > thinks he's god - doesn't actually know what he's talking about, and > hasn't bothered to do any software optimisation of the parts of the > MALI libraries that run on the actual ARM cores. > > luc verbeghen did a _really_ simple memory-management system in > limadriver and got a *whopping* 30% performance increase *above* what > MALI can do on the exact same hardware. and that's *without* having > done any other special kinds of optimisations. I am not sure who luc verbeghen is, or where he found this 30% increase. But luc verhaegen got 6%, and he expects another 50% over the X11 binary by integrating the display engine correctly. The ~6% over the framebuffer binary stands as is, which is mostly down to lesser memory management overhead (due to smarter handling of throw-away memory), general lesser cpu overhead, and slightly more aggressive scheduling. The big news is: lima seems to be, in the very general case, as fast as the binary (and measurably, but not earthshatteringly faster). And i do not think that anyone in the graphics world can currently approach that. Luc Verhaegen. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131106225536.ge22...@skynet.be
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > On 6 November 2013 19:26, Lennart Sorensen > wrote: >>> Wait, is PowerVR rebranded as Intel HD Graphics? I'm getting confused >>> - again probably my fault (just trying to understand how stuff works). >> >> No intel calls it the GMA500. > > Which means there is a working open source driver? f*** no :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/capweedz-n92na3fcvqcud73zfunvbed4-h-kkyxcgapngg+...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: >> no. you don't. *do not* get *anything* that has imgtec PowerVR. >> ask anyone who's worked with intel embedded atom SoCs. ask anyone >> who's had an intel atom laptop with a PowerVR GPU. > > Wait, is PowerVR rebranded as Intel HD Graphics? I'm getting confused > - again probably my fault (just trying to understand how stuff works). there was a time - which intel regrets - when they licensed PowerVR for use with Intel Atom. poulsbo or something i think it was. this galvanised them to actually do a decent job and to create a software (libre) version of their 3D graphics driver for their *own* 3D Graphics Engine. > I'll look that up, but the question is whether there is an > alternative. Although at the $300 mark, where the 1040 is aiming, > there probably is, the AMD C-50, with its stellar GPU performance. But > if no one is doing an open design based on that, there is probably a > good reason for it that anyone more knowledgeable than I probably > knows very well? $40k NREs on designs will do it. at least with ARM SoCs you can - if you're lucky - get away with $10k. we ended up spending around $12k and got the EOMA68-A20 CPU Card done... just. i had to have a hand in some of the last minute board changes for the final revision... >> ok you won't, because it's a chassis. the CPU Card is a plugin >> user-upgradeable module, reusing PCMCIA (PCCARD) if you remember that. > > Of course I remember PCMCIA. And it sounds like a very good idea. i demonstrate it to people by bashing a CPU Card on the edge of a table. it weighs only 40 grammes so makes a lot of noise with very little in the way of actual damage. >> the *first* in the series will be an Allwinner A10 module, which has >> its own news page: >> >> http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/ >> >> yeees, that CPU Card runs debian. first thing i installed when i got it :) > > Cool. But I guess the A10 GPU (Mali400) is pretty basic compared to > the aforementioned PowerVR? we're using the A20 which is dual-core, but yes it is. part of the issue there is that the moron in charge of MALI at ARM - the one who thinks he's god - doesn't actually know what he's talking about, and hasn't bothered to do any software optimisation of the parts of the MALI libraries that run on the actual ARM cores. luc verbeghen did a _really_ simple memory-management system in limadriver and got a *whopping* 30% performance increase *above* what MALI can do on the exact same hardware. and that's *without* having done any other special kinds of optimisations. but yes, if you're forced [for now] to use MALI, then yes it's a little slow. but then you think, "hmm, if you pay $7.50 in 10k volumes for a Dual-Core ARM Cortex A7 *and* its Power-Management IC the AXP209 and it's a little slow but perfectly adequate and reliable, and i'm comparing that against $19 for a Quad-Core A7 where the 3D GPU is twice as quick but it can crash at any time and take out the OS", i know which one i'd go for. >>> and, of course, how you can attach a keyboard. It does seem you are going >>> for non widescreen which is kinda cool :) >> >> lots going on - the first tablet will be 1024x600 (i'm not keen on it >> personally, but the client's client are). after that we'll have cash >> to make a whole stack of products whahey! > > I'll keep watching the space, as if I go for a tablet at all, it has > to be 9+ inch non-widescreen and with a wired keyboard case. But THAT > would be a real incentive to go for it (basically it would replace two > devices that I need). there will be more. there's an engineering board coming out very soon. i also have a design for a router (using the same gigabit 5-port RTL8366 IC that's in some OpenWRT-compatible TP-Link routers). again, you just pop out the CPU Card and slot it into the router. boomf, now you have an intelligent router. if you're managing customer sites that means diagnosing problems or doing upgrades would involve swapping out the whole CPU Card instead of trying to do hairy on-site live upgrades. customer: "oops it didn't work". you: "ok, sorry: put the other card back then please". easy. l. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/capweedxgkxryzpk_-fvnov411nbuuts6dpuc9aeh1ikyqox...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 07:38:49PM +, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > I don't *want* them, but I do want performance. And I'm somewhat used > to them, although in the previous hardware the reason was simply > pushing to the limits and overheating. > > Which means there is a working open source driver? No there isn't. Intel majorly screwed up when they decided to license the SGX535 for the atom. Apparently whoever decided that was a good idea didn't understand that intel in general likes open source. Well there is an open source driver, but it has NO accaleration support at all. It is marginally better than using VESA. > Still wondering about that. If I could have a C-50 device it would be > just purrrfection. > > The driver project is http://limadriver.org/ and appears to be a > reverse-engineering attempt. That doesn't mean the driver exists in a usuable state yet. But it looks like good progress is happening. > OK, full disclosure - my wife is a musician and she uses a lot of PDF > scores. A 9+ inch non-widescreen display would finally give her an > alternative to paper. (GNU/Linux is not essential for the task, but if > there was a tablet+keyboard of this format and with GNU/Linux, it > would work for both her and me). True, for a sheet of paper widescreen isn't a good fit. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131106203236.gb20...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On 6 November 2013 19:38, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: >>> Wait, is PowerVR rebranded as Intel HD Graphics? I'm getting confused >>> - again probably my fault (just trying to understand how stuff works). >> >> No intel calls it the GMA500. > > Which means there is a working open source driver? My sincere apologies for hitting Send before the download completed. I did get the GMA500 driver at https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?lang=eng&DwnldID=19158 and it does not seem to include a source license, although does seem to include a lot of source. I might well be confused here, but if there IS an open source driver release - which is normal practice for Intel - then I can understand picking the PowerVR for an open tablet design. Even if it's not so stable when under active 3D use. Reverse-engineered drivers inevitably add instability anyway. -- Yours, Mikhail Ramendik Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do not reflect the views of any organization -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/canq10gu+gnz98cuqewfpbtwphi74u7kyq6kq+pig0xdcai_...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On 6 November 2013 19:26, Lennart Sorensen wrote: >> ...funnily, I do. My main aim (hypothetical for now, I'm only looking >> at feasibility) would be to port a Second Life viewer. I'm likely to >> get crashes after a few hours of heavy use anyway for quite some time >> - if it is stable for an hour it would be a smashing success. As a >> maximum aim, If it supports full OpenGL somewhere near what, at least, >> a 6-7 year old basic dedicated GPU did, then *I want it*. > > Do you want crashes that you can't ever fix? That sounds hugely > frustrating. I don't *want* them, but I do want performance. And I'm somewhat used to them, although in the previous hardware the reason was simply pushing to the limits and overheating. >> Wait, is PowerVR rebranded as Intel HD Graphics? I'm getting confused >> - again probably my fault (just trying to understand how stuff works). > > No intel calls it the GMA500. Which means there is a working open source driver? >> I'll look that up, but the question is whether there is an >> alternative. Although at the $300 mark, where the 1040 is aiming, >> there probably is, the AMD C-50, with its stellar GPU performance. But >> if no one is doing an open design based on that, there is probably a >> good reason for it that anyone more knowledgeable than I probably >> knows very well? Still wondering about that. If I could have a C-50 device it would be just purrrfection. >> Cool. But I guess the A10 GPU (Mali400) is pretty basic compared to >> the aforementioned PowerVR? > > My understanding is that it is much simpler and more obvious how to > operate it, so at least people are working on creating drivers (even if > that isn't done yet). The driver project is http://limadriver.org/ and appears to be a reverse-engineering attempt. > >> I'll keep watching the space, as if I go for a tablet at all, it has >> to be 9+ inch non-widescreen and with a wired keyboard case. But THAT >> would be a real incentive to go for it (basically it would replace two >> devices that I need). > > I think the vast majority of people want widescreen to watch videos, > so you may be on your own there and end up with hardly any choices ever. OK, full disclosure - my wife is a musician and she uses a lot of PDF scores. A 9+ inch non-widescreen display would finally give her an alternative to paper. (GNU/Linux is not essential for the task, but if there was a tablet+keyboard of this format and with GNU/Linux, it would work for both her and me). -- Yours, Mikhail Ramendik Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do not reflect the views of any organization -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANq10gsR4JFUO-F=rrbmpimk3eqzqmrnoylnq3g7c6bckmf...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 07:08:38PM +, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > ...funnily, I do. My main aim (hypothetical for now, I'm only looking > at feasibility) would be to port a Second Life viewer. I'm likely to > get crashes after a few hours of heavy use anyway for quite some time > - if it is stable for an hour it would be a smashing success. As a > maximum aim, If it supports full OpenGL somewhere near what, at least, > a 6-7 year old basic dedicated GPU did, then *I want it*. Do you want crashes that you can't ever fix? That sounds hugely frustrating. > Wait, is PowerVR rebranded as Intel HD Graphics? I'm getting confused > - again probably my fault (just trying to understand how stuff works). No intel calls it the GMA500. Also included in a number of intel CE CPUs, which are mostly Atom CPU with SGX535 built in. It is what is in the paulsbo chipset that a lot of atom based netbooks have used. The GMA600 is a slightly faster version of the same thing. > I'll look that up, but the question is whether there is an > alternative. Although at the $300 mark, where the 1040 is aiming, > there probably is, the AMD C-50, with its stellar GPU performance. But > if no one is doing an open design based on that, there is probably a > good reason for it that anyone more knowledgeable than I probably > knows very well? > > Of course I remember PCMCIA. And it sounds like a very good idea. > > Cool. But I guess the A10 GPU (Mali400) is pretty basic compared to > the aforementioned PowerVR? My understanding is that it is much simpler and more obvious how to operate it, so at least people are working on creating drivers (even if that isn't done yet). > I'll keep watching the space, as if I go for a tablet at all, it has > to be 9+ inch non-widescreen and with a wired keyboard case. But THAT > would be a real incentive to go for it (basically it would replace two > devices that I need). I think the vast majority of people want widescreen to watch videos, so you may be on your own there and end up with hardly any choices ever. Also since almost everything uses widescreens these days, those are likely to be much cheaper to get as well. A widescreen is also quite good for reading when in portrait mode. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131106192638.ga20...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On 6 November 2013 18:45, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> The 1040 looks nice. It is out of my planned budget, but the 9.7 inch screen >> (non-widescreen) would mean I get more use out of it s a tablet too. (I >> really only need a tablet as a reader - for everything else I prefer a >> keyboard; and for reading, widescreen is quite bad). >> >> What I would really like to know is what kind of performance the *GPU* would >> deliver > > *deep breath*... well... do you care if the performance benchmarks > are twice that of the nearest competition if, after a few hours of > heavy use the proprietary GPU software, which is so complex due to the > fundamental hardware design being so flexible (yet old) that it > corrupts the main OS and crashes it? ...funnily, I do. My main aim (hypothetical for now, I'm only looking at feasibility) would be to port a Second Life viewer. I'm likely to get crashes after a few hours of heavy use anyway for quite some time - if it is stable for an hour it would be a smashing success. As a maximum aim, If it supports full OpenGL somewhere near what, at least, a 6-7 year old basic dedicated GPU did, then *I want it*. >> and how well it's supported under GNU/Linux (as opposed to Android). >> The advertising describes GNU/Linux for "work". I want it for play :) > > no. you don't. *do not* get *anything* that has imgtec PowerVR. > ask anyone who's worked with intel embedded atom SoCs. ask anyone > who's had an intel atom laptop with a PowerVR GPU. Wait, is PowerVR rebranded as Intel HD Graphics? I'm getting confused - again probably my fault (just trying to understand how stuff works). >> So what is wrong with that? Performance? Driver support? > > the team that designed it has left the company. the remaining people > at imgtec are completely unable to deal with its complexity. so they > tweak it and dial up a few macros to get higher performance but they > fundamentally are incapable of fixing the software. it's a pity > because it's a fantastic design. go look up luc's talk. I'll look that up, but the question is whether there is an alternative. Although at the $300 mark, where the 1040 is aiming, there probably is, the AMD C-50, with its stellar GPU performance. But if no one is doing an open design based on that, there is probably a good reason for it that anyone more knowledgeable than I probably knows very well? >>> anyway anyone who'd like to follow along, it's all here: >>> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/kde_tablet/news/ >> >> >> Might be my fault but I could not find the basics there, as in CPU/GPU used, >> RAM, OpenGL status... > > ok you won't, because it's a chassis. the CPU Card is a plugin > user-upgradeable module, reusing PCMCIA (PCCARD) if you remember that. Of course I remember PCMCIA. And it sounds like a very good idea. > the *first* in the series will be an Allwinner A10 module, which has > its own news page: > > http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/ > > yeees, that CPU Card runs debian. first thing i installed when i got it :) Cool. But I guess the A10 GPU (Mali400) is pretty basic compared to the aforementioned PowerVR? >> and, of course, how you can attach a keyboard. It does seem you are going >> for non widescreen which is kinda cool :) > > lots going on - the first tablet will be 1024x600 (i'm not keen on it > personally, but the client's client are). after that we'll have cash > to make a whole stack of products whahey! I'll keep watching the space, as if I go for a tablet at all, it has to be 9+ inch non-widescreen and with a wired keyboard case. But THAT would be a real incentive to go for it (basically it would replace two devices that I need). -- Yours, Mikhail Ramendik Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do not reflect the views of any organization -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/canq10gv4xndxgxf5rh3tekwet0moounlfycnts837dh-xob...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: > On 6 November 2013 15:01, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Wookey wrote: >> >> > These people support linux on cheap tablets: >> > https://pengpod.com/products >> > (dual boot with android - linux on the SD, but a lot more open than most >> > random hardware you can buy) >> >> ah that's neal. yeah i'm deeply impressed by neal's entrepreneurial >> spirit. the pengpod 700 and the 1000 went down extremely well. he's >> now doing a crowdfunding project for the A31-based "uber"-tablet. > > > The 1040 looks nice. It is out of my planned budget, but the 9.7 inch screen > (non-widescreen) would mean I get more use out of it s a tablet too. (I > really only need a tablet as a reader - for everything else I prefer a > keyboard; and for reading, widescreen is quite bad). > > What I would really like to know is what kind of performance the *GPU* would > deliver *deep breath*... well... do you care if the performance benchmarks are twice that of the nearest competition if, after a few hours of heavy use the proprietary GPU software, which is so complex due to the fundamental hardware design being so flexible (yet old) that it corrupts the main OS and crashes it? > and how well it's supported under GNU/Linux (as opposed to Android). > The advertising describes GNU/Linux for "work". I want it for play :) no. you don't. *do not* get *anything* that has imgtec PowerVR. ask anyone who's worked with intel embedded atom SoCs. ask anyone who's had an intel atom laptop with a PowerVR GPU. ask anyone who's ever worked with TI ARM SoCs with PowerVR GPUs. and, last but not least, go and find Luc Verbeghen's presentation (video) on the state of embedded GPUs and fast-forward to the section covering PowerVR. you DO NOT want - ever - a system that has PowerVR. ever. >> >> i >> didn't want to alarm/discourage him, the fact that he's trying _at >> all_ when so many others are going "yeah it'd be nice IF..." is just >> amazing in itself... _but_... the A31 should instantly ring alarm >> bells for anyone not just in the free software world but even in the >> business world because it has powervr graphics. > > > So what is wrong with that? Performance? Driver support? the team that designed it has left the company. the remaining people at imgtec are completely unable to deal with its complexity. so they tweak it and dial up a few macros to get higher performance but they fundamentally are incapable of fixing the software. it's a pity because it's a fantastic design. go look up luc's talk. >> >> >> > And the KDE plasma tablet is about to be announced (so I hear). Not sure >> > exactly how long before you can buy one. Probably a couple of months or >> > so, so >> > definitely not 'available today'. >> >> that'll be me doing the hardware for that. > > > ...and that's the main reason I am using Debian - the people on its mailing > lists :) yaaay :) >> >> >> anyway anyone who'd like to follow along, it's all here: >> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/kde_tablet/news/ > > > Might be my fault but I could not find the basics there, as in CPU/GPU used, > RAM, OpenGL status... ok you won't, because it's a chassis. the CPU Card is a plugin user-upgradeable module, reusing PCMCIA (PCCARD) if you remember that. the *first* in the series will be an Allwinner A10 module, which has its own news page: http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/ yeees, that CPU Card runs debian. first thing i installed when i got it :) > and, of course, how you can attach a keyboard. It does seem you are going > for non widescreen which is kinda cool :) lots going on - the first tablet will be 1024x600 (i'm not keen on it personally, but the client's client are). after that we'll have cash to make a whole stack of products whahey! l. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAPweEDzsJNKw3WdDzFyb9-fFgce9kbD4Ob=iqppyrt+1zgc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On 6 November 2013 15:01, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Wookey wrote: > > > These people support linux on cheap tablets: > > https://pengpod.com/products > > (dual boot with android - linux on the SD, but a lot more open than most > > random hardware you can buy) > > ah that's neal. yeah i'm deeply impressed by neal's entrepreneurial > spirit. the pengpod 700 and the 1000 went down extremely well. he's > now doing a crowdfunding project for the A31-based "uber"-tablet. The 1040 looks nice. It is out of my planned budget, but the 9.7 inch screen (non-widescreen) would mean I get more use out of it s a tablet too. (I really only need a tablet as a reader - for everything else I prefer a keyboard; and for reading, widescreen is quite bad). What I would really like to know is what kind of performance the *GPU* would deliver and how well it's supported under GNU/Linux (as opposed to Android). The advertising describes GNU/Linux for "work". I want it for play :) > i > didn't want to alarm/discourage him, the fact that he's trying _at > all_ when so many others are going "yeah it'd be nice IF..." is just > amazing in itself... _but_... the A31 should instantly ring alarm > bells for anyone not just in the free software world but even in the > business world because it has powervr graphics. So what is wrong with that? Performance? Driver support? > > > And the KDE plasma tablet is about to be announced (so I hear). Not sure > > exactly how long before you can buy one. Probably a couple of months or > so, so > > definitely not 'available today'. > > that'll be me doing the hardware for that. ...and that's the main reason I am using Debian - the people on its mailing lists :) > > anyway anyone who'd like to follow along, it's all here: > http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/kde_tablet/news/ > Might be my fault but I could not find the basics there, as in CPU/GPU used, RAM, OpenGL status... and, of course, how you can attach a keyboard. It does seem you are going for non widescreen which is kinda cool :) -- Yours, Mikhail Ramendik Unless explicitly stated, all opinions in my mail are my own and do not reflect the views of any organization
Re: Qt5 switching qreal from float to double on arm*
On Wednesday 06 November 2013 17:40:11 Pino Toscano wrote: > In data sabato 2 novembre 2013 15:29:05, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez > > Meyer ha scritto: > > Hi! Starting from Qt 5.2.0 (most probably from rc1 and definitely not > > from beta1 currently in experimental) Qt5 will switch qreal from > > float to double on arm*. > > Did upstream bump the SONAME of QtCore5 and any other qt5 library > because of this? No. And I also agree this should have been done from Qt5's first version, but that didn't happened. > > Of course we are still on time to discuss this, and this is the reason > > of this mail. What do you think WRT the above changes? > > This will basically break the ABI of basically all the Qt5 libraries on > those architectures. Unless upstream already managed the SONAME bump > already, it would imply that Debian has to maintain it on its own... > are you sure these changes are worth the pain they cause? Depends on how you see it. Only three apps curently B-D on Qt5 in the archive. Yes, this means that a binary incompatible change will need to occur without a soname bump in (so far) one arch. But I *think* this can be managed quite easily with three armhf-binNMUs. Of course, I might be missing something else (as I did wrt LSB/binary compatibilty with other distros), that's why I asked here before doing anything. > > On the other hand, if the above change is kept, symbols for Qt5 on > > armhf managed with pkg-kde-tools' symbolshelper will need an explicit > > double for armhf instead of using qreal's subst. This is because on > > Qt4 qreal will be kept as float. > > This is another issue, i.e. pkgkde-symbolshelper not being able to > distinguish version of qt for substitutions. I agree here. > > We have the option to keep some archs in float by passing a > > compilation parameter. I've done so for armel and sh4, so only armhf > > will switch to double. > > My option goes on keeping the status quo of qreal as it was, on > architectures that managed to build qtbase-opensource-src already. Thanks for your opinion and time :) I will ask in Qt's dev list to see if other distros are going to keep the ABI or not for this cases. Kinds regards, Lisandro. -- Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer http://perezmeyer.com.ar/ http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Qt5 switching qreal from float to double on arm*
In data sabato 2 novembre 2013 15:29:05, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer ha scritto: > Hi! Starting from Qt 5.2.0 (most probably from rc1 and definitely not > from beta1 currently in experimental) Qt5 will switch qreal from > float to double on arm*. Did upstream bump the SONAME of QtCore5 and any other qt5 library because of this? > Of course we are still on time to discuss this, and this is the reason > of this mail. What do you think WRT the above changes? This will basically break the ABI of basically all the Qt5 libraries on those architectures. Unless upstream already managed the SONAME bump already, it would imply that Debian has to maintain it on its own... are you sure these changes are worth the pain they cause? > On the other hand, if the above change is kept, symbols for Qt5 on > armhf managed with pkg-kde-tools' symbolshelper will need an explicit > double for armhf instead of using qreal's subst. This is because on > Qt4 qreal will be kept as float. This is another issue, i.e. pkgkde-symbolshelper not being able to distinguish version of qt for substitutions. > We have the option to keep some archs in float by passing a > compilation parameter. I've done so for armel and sh4, so only armhf > will switch to double. My option goes on keeping the status quo of qreal as it was, on architectures that managed to build qtbase-opensource-src already. -- Pino Toscano signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian 7.0 on Dreamplug basic installation and booting system external sd card
* Ian Campbell [2013-11-04 11:02]: > > Looking at #667681, I see that your original patch put the files in > > /boot but Loïc suggested otherwise. I don't agree with Loïc's > > rationale but I guess I'm 1.5 years late... > > > > If people think it's too late to change the behaviour now, I think it > > would be good to at least add a simple message like > > Creating boot files on /dev/sdaX > > to make it cleaer what's going on. > > We can't really change Wheezy but I'd have no problem with doing it > differently for Jessie+, assuming the upgrade path can be sorted out. I'd be in favour of changing it but I'd like to hear from Loïc as he suggested the current behaviour. -- Martin Michlmayr http://www.cyrius.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131106163855.gi29...@jirafa.cyrius.com
Re: Removing lvm and crypto from rootfs
* Björn Wetterbom [2013-11-06 09:34]: > I have updated /etc/fstab and replaced all occurrences of /dev/mapper/vg-lv > with the UUIDs of the partitions. However, after running update-initramfs > -u, it still tries to boot from my old lvm, which obviously fails. There is > something more than /etc/fstab that needs to be changed. Are you sure flash-kernel got called by update-initramfs (it should on wheezy). How did you configure u-boot? Maybe you're passing a root parameter via u-boot. -- Martin Michlmayr http://www.cyrius.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131106154921.ge29...@jirafa.cyrius.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Wookey wrote: > These people support linux on cheap tablets: > https://pengpod.com/products > (dual boot with android - linux on the SD, but a lot more open than most > random hardware you can buy) ah that's neal. yeah i'm deeply impressed by neal's entrepreneurial spirit. the pengpod 700 and the 1000 went down extremely well. he's now doing a crowdfunding project for the A31-based "uber"-tablet. i didn't want to alarm/discourage him, the fact that he's trying _at all_ when so many others are going "yeah it'd be nice IF..." is just amazing in itself... _but_... the A31 should instantly ring alarm bells for anyone not just in the free software world but even in the business world because it has powervr graphics. allwinner have now learned that lesson because the A31 even 6 months ago was considered to be a flop... but they've already taken that in their stride and moved on. > And the KDE plasma tablet is about to be announced (so I hear). Not sure > exactly how long before you can buy one. Probably a couple of months or so, so > definitely not 'available today'. that'll be me doing the hardware for that. i screwed up the revision 1 _and_ revision 2 so am having to do revision 3 myself. this is probably a good thing because no matter how good any 3rd party designers the fact that so much of the design information is in my head means that bringing anyone else on-board is just... well... we already screwed up rev1 & rev2 :) anyway, yes: i can't say "how long" either. i should be done the rev3 PCB layout within a day or so. if anyone knows anyone who can do PCB board design reviews i reallly need help here, even just basic advice (which at this stage is all that i can expect). factory's already alerted to expect the gerbers. buyers underway for components. case manufacturer received early prototype, expecting PCB... so many details. then after that we need to do the firmware! the design is basically using an ATSAM4S (not an STM32F as originally planned). that has USB2 (unlike the STM32F103) and it has a dedicated PIO port up to 48mhz which can be used for anything up to a 720p CMOS camera (woow!). the ATSAM4S will handle camera, backlight, power management, RTC and so on. any spare pins i've brought out to an optional 24-pin header, which includes one more USB, I2C, 2 DACs, 2 ADCs, 5V and an SPI port. there's a bit more from the multiplexing of the ATSAM4S but that's basically it. anyway anyone who'd like to follow along, it's all here: http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/kde_tablet/news/ > I'm holding out for one of those as it has been designed to be > free-software all the way through and (mostly) open hardware. ... and you already have one of the very first EOMA68-A20 CPU Card samples so you'd only need the chassis, yaay :) next up will be a laptop, and that's easier than it looks. the hardest bit - the PCB design - will basically already have been done by then. i'm already designing the rev.3 PCB so that it can take a 9in (ipad) 1024x768 LCD, and it also has a SATA and an Ethernet connector on it. but that's a way off. l. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAPweEDwSJbJ3m4Hsd6rgScOoh=b5q=9gnr43gn6knjpnux+...@mail.gmail.com
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
+++ Mikhail Ramendik [2013-11-05 21:39 +]: > Hello, > > Sites like DX.com have very nice small netbooks with specs I like - > notably, 1 GB RAM and HDMI (so they can be used with a separate > monitor when at home). Most of them are based on VIA 8850, and all of > them run Android. I don't want Android, and would like to run Debian > instead. (I run Debian on my Intel desktop for a few years now). > > I would very much appreciate recommendation of a particular model > where someone has already succeeded in deploying Debian. I don't > really know how to get into the boot loader etc, so would prefer to > learn from someone who did. The ideal configuration would be a dual > boot for Debian/Android, in case I ever need an Android app. These people support linux on cheap tablets: https://pengpod.com/products (dual boot with android - linux on the SD, but a lot more open than most random hardware you can buy) I don't actually know how well-supported Debian is. Check the forums. And the KDE plasma tablet is about to be announced (so I hear). Not sure exactly how long before you can buy one. Probably a couple of months or so, so definitely not 'available today'. I'm holding out for one of those as it has been designed to be free-software all the way through and (mostly) open hardware. Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM http://wookware.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131106140119.gg7...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk
Re: recommend a netbook for Debian deployment?
On 11/05/2013 10:37 PM, Mikhail Ramendik wrote: On 6 November 2013 02:17, Paul Wise wrote: I would very much appreciate recommendation of a particular model where someone has already succeeded in deploying Debian. Google Chromebooks appear to be popular, some info about them here: https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Samsung/ARMChromebook Thanks - but they are on the much more expensive side. If I went for that level I could as well get an Intel-based Chromebook (or an eee pc). However, for a machine that is carried around and inherently can be lost, I'd prefer the "around $100" mark of the Chinese netbooks - at least if someone already got one to work! Dell has a 7" tablet with x86 for $150, supposed to start shipping tomorrow! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/527a3cdf.8080...@brenemanlabs.com
RE: Debian on thecus N2560
> > Brian wasn't talking about the Debian ARM ports though, just about > Debian in general. > > Brian, the Thecus N2560 uses an Intel CPU (Atom) like a normal > PC/laptop. So you can probably just boot the Debian installer linked > from the front page of the Debian website. It depends on if the BIOS > lets you boot from USB or other external media. Anyway, installing > Debian on this hardware is off-topic on the debian-arm mailing list, > please use debian-user or other Debian support channels: > > http://www.debian.org/support > http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ > http://forums.debian.net/ > http://ask.debian.net/ > irc://irc.oftc.net/debian > > -- > bye, > pabs > > http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-arm-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: > http://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6H7um5ZBq=s0FuKu_X=--b-n4ajoqmnz2k672qfylo...@mail.gmail.com > Exactly what I meant Paul, i've looked into it and apparently it uses a special boot loader provided by intel. I will ask on the debian-user list, thank you.
Removing lvm and crypto from rootfs
Hello list! I'm having an issue with my sheevaplug. Previously it booted off an encrypted lvm. I have now rsynced the entire rootfs to a standard partition on a usb stick and I am trying to get it to boot. My strategy is to update the initramfs from a chroot, inspired by this: http://www.cyrius.com/journal/debian/orion/d-link/dns-323/fix-initramfs-tools I have updated /etc/fstab and replaced all occurrences of /dev/mapper/vg-lv with the UUIDs of the partitions. However, after running update-initramfs -u, it still tries to boot from my old lvm, which obviously fails. There is something more than /etc/fstab that needs to be changed. I'm guessing I need to fiddle with the hooks for initramfs-tools, but I am completely unfamiliar with that. Any hints? TIA B
