Apologies
Sorry about feeding the bickering about systemd. I posted tired and cranky. I stand by what I said, but I'm not going to try to convince you of it, or be part of the bickering, from here on (after this message) I'll make my decision to stay or go in silence and not participate in yet another example of debian's social dysfunction. It is that combined with technical dysfunction (too many bugs in stable, trying to help future quality by running testing and reporting bugs seems to be in effective). Combined the sense that the vaunted freedom of Debian is gums flapping in the breeze and not reality, and supporting and promoting freedom being the reason I've run a Linux desktop (usually) Debian for over 15 years, I really have become disillusioned and disappointed with open source (though that might not be fair to other project as I've not been much outside debian, except a stint as an openwrt developer). I've made an attempt avoid having replies to this message go to the list, since my objective is not start yet another bickering thread, but to state my piece, for the benefit of those with ears to hear, and be done with it. Regards, Daniel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Seeking help with OpenVPN scripts and systemd
On 10/09/14 02:52 PM, Noel Torres wrote: Yes. Why to install OpenVPN which might not work? aptitude will tell you that they are not coinstallable and the sysadmin will then have the option of switching init system to a non default one, knowing what that means, and having a working OpenVPN config, instead of (possibly) having a failing config and no clue about why. +1 with the caveat that this is not a *solution* but a recognition of the fact of the matter until the situation is resolved by the much harder task of geting openvpn's config to work with systemd. Regards, Daniel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: upgrades must not change the installed init system [was: Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing]
I will add that for a distribution that claims to be about it's users, the systemd attitude of We're *going* to use systemd so 'suck it up Buttercup' really stinks at a social level. Not to mention, as many have pointed out, transition to systemd is *not* going to be painless and without problems, in fact far from it. This is going to worse than the pulseaudio and network manager ages of brokeness being forced on users before the systems are truly ready for full deployment. Network Manager is just now, years later, getting bridge support, and it is still under heavy development because a lot of the time it doesn't work correctly. Do we really need yet another pushed-before-ready-for-production 'solution' that drives people away from the Linux? The reason I chose Debain over Ubuntu was that Ubuntu had (don't know about nowadays) a tendency to force things onto their users before they were properly and Debian at least took a more 'slow-and-steady' approach to improvements, and resisted upstart because it wasn't ready. Why is systemd is suddenly so differnt? I'm really not sure there are any sane distributions left at this point in the F/LOSS world. Regards, Daniel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: upgrades must not change the installed init system [was: Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing]
For the heck of it, I will add that if in my job I pushed out crap like Network Manager and Pulseaudio at the time of introduction as 'the saviour of the Linux desktop' as a production release I would have fired long ago. Regards, Daniel On 11/09/14 12:10 AM, Daniel Dickinson wrote: I will add that for a distribution that claims to be about it's users, the systemd attitude of We're *going* to use systemd so 'suck it up Buttercup' really stinks at a social level. Not to mention, as many have pointed out, transition to systemd is *not* going to be painless and without problems, in fact far from it. This is going to worse than the pulseaudio and network manager ages of brokeness being forced on users before the systems are truly ready for full deployment. Network Manager is just now, years later, getting bridge support, and it is still under heavy development because a lot of the time it doesn't work correctly. Do we really need yet another pushed-before-ready-for-production 'solution' that drives people away from the Linux? The reason I chose Debain over Ubuntu was that Ubuntu had (don't know about nowadays) a tendency to force things onto their users before they were properly and Debian at least took a more 'slow-and-steady' approach to improvements, and resisted upstart because it wasn't ready. Why is systemd is suddenly so differnt? I'm really not sure there are any sane distributions left at this point in the F/LOSS world. Regards, Daniel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: upgrades must not change the installed init system [was: Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing]
On 11/09/14 12:10 AM, Daniel Dickinson wrote: I will add that for a distribution that claims to be about it's users, the systemd attitude of We're *going* to use systemd so 'suck it up Buttercup' really stinks at a social level. Especially since 'Free' is supposed to be 'as in Freedom not beer'. This systemd thing is just as bad as any M$ corporate heavy-handedness. Regards, Daniel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: deprecating /usr as a standalone filesystem?
On Tue, 5 May 2009 17:36:02 +0200 m...@linux.it (Marco d'Itri) wrote: I have been told by upstream maintainers of one of my packages and by prominent developers of other distributions that supporting a standalone /usr is too much work and no other distribution worth mentioning does it (not Ubuntu, not Fedora, not SuSE). I know that Debian supports this, but I also know that maintaning forever large changes to packages for no real gain sucks. So, does anybody still see reasons to continue supporting a standalone /usr? You can lvm resize a standalone /usr by booting single user (I've done it when my /usr got too small). In addition getting rid of a standalone /usr will break existing configurations. It would break mine, for instance, because I partitioned my hard drive based on the knowledge that /usr could be a separate filesystem. What about nfs-served /usr? Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore (Daniel Dickinson's Website) http://cshore.is-a-geek.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Keeping track of best practises / policy changes with tracking -devel
Hi, I'm finding that I can't keep up with devel but I would like to be able to see a summary of consensuses (consensii?) that result from the discussions, as well a final summaries of best practices (and changes to them. Also a neat changelog of policy changes I should be aware of. Basically I want to make sure I package well, but I don't want to track -devel, because it is way too busy. Anything that can help? Also, is there any codification of best practices anywhere? (and what's the deal with the new package/patch format?) I've read NM guide and Policy, but what I see on -devel is a bunch of other technical information and considerations that aren't codified anywhere I can find, but following the mailing list to keep track is taking so much time that in the past few days I've read mail and done no work on actual development. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
This topic died off; any resolution?
I kind of got lost in this discussion. Is there a summary and debian policy and debian reference patch so that those of us who are just looking to do what we're supposed to do know what we are supposed to do and how to do it? Thanks, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
New quilt source format
Is there any information on how the typical package is supposed to use this new format, or (I'm a little confused on this) is it even in place yet? If it's not in place how do we prepare for it? Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Sponsorship requirements and copyright files
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:00:00 -0700 Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org wrote: No. It is not up to the Debian maintainer to decide that some contributor has written enough of the code to also be mentioned in the (C) lines in a particular file. But as soon as upstream lists them either in a file header or the AUTHORS file the Debian maintainer has to copy that information into debian/copyright. So it's not up to the Debian maintainer, but it is up to the ftp team? Why? I'm not ftpmaster, but I can guess. You yourself have said there is not Debian entity, which means that ftpmaster is *personally* liable for legal actions take as a result of problems with the archive. As the ones personally liable they make any final decision about what goes in the archive and what doesn't. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Bits from the Debian Pure Blends Team
On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:40:24 +0100 (CET) Andreas Tille til...@rki.de wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello, as you might have noticed the effort formerly known as Custom Debian Distributions was renamed to Debian Pure Blends (see [1] for the reasons). This process is now regarded as finished. The Alioth project was moved to http://alioth.debian.org/projects/debian-blends This link reports 'Invalid Project' -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Using a CD Set to back to Debian Pool (e.g. for mirror)
For those mirroring debian on small space and who want to mirror both CD images and the archive, the page (and related scripts) on the wiki, that I have just posted at http://wiki.debian.org/CDToPool may be of interest. Basically, starting with either a mirror or cd set you can create pool directory that can be used for a mirror but has the advantage that it is backed by the loop mounted CD set so the CD set doesn't add much to the amount of space taken by the mirror + cd mirror. Hope you enjoy. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
Is that a violation of a must directive and therefore a bug that will need fixing ASAP? AIUI packages that have a GUI are required to have debian menu, but I'm not sure if the window manager / desktop has the same requirement. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Accelerated video cards and non-free firmware
Hi, I'm looking at getting a video card, and I want to know what video card that has 3D acceleration to get. Normally I'd ask on -users but as the subject says I want to know what video cards will still have acceleration when the non-free firmware is removed from the kernel, which is supposed to happen for squeeze. I had heard that the ATI cards, which would normally be my first choice, have non-free firmware in the driver, which may be removed. Is this true, and if so what accelerated cards will have have acceleration once non-free firmware is removed. I can delay purchase (easily), if the answer to this is not yet known. Thanks, Daniel P.S. I *am* subscribed to the list but would appreciated CC's anyway. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: starting gnome with xephyr in chroot fails
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:54:54 +0100 Grammostola Rosea rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote: I tried to start Xephyr: debian-live$ Xephyr :1 -screen 1024x768 -ac Could not init font path element /usr/share/fonts/X11/cyrillic, removing from list! Could not init font path element /usr/share/fonts/X11/100dpi/:unscaled, removing from list! Could not init font path element /usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi/:unscaled, removing from list! Could not init font path element /usr/share/fonts/X11/100dpi, removing from list! Could not init font path element /usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi, removing from list! but then in chroot environment: :/usr/bin# env DISPLAY=:1 gnome-session (gnome-session:3729): Gtk-WARNING **: Locale not supported by C library. Using the fallback 'C' locale. (gnome-session:3729): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display: :1 [1] 3729 [1]+ Exit 1 env DISPLAY=:1 gnome-session What could this be? To the best of my knowledge you can't use just :1 inside a chroot because that communicates using files in /tmp (unix sockets?) In any event you need to allow tcp connections to you X server, get your xauthorization into the chroot, and use hostname:1. Regards, Daniel BTW such question really ought to be asked on debian-user not debian-devel. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: 1 of 400 dpkg databases corrupt?
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:07:48 +0200 Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed. This would also rule out a temporary bug in popcon (in that case, it would have been a peak which would subside over time). Instead, my guess is that there are corner-case situations in which popcon tries to read the dpkg database at a time when it is in a state of flux; and that because of that, popcon doesn't get all the existing data, only part of it. Of the top of my head, I can think of two possible examples where this might be the case: [snip] - Another possibility might be a group of people having popcon and something like cron-apt installed at the same time; if both cronjobs That would include me (only apticron and popcon) :-) trigger at approximately the same time, that would greatly increase the chance that popcon is indeed trying to read the dpkg database at the time when cron-apt is rewriting it. I just use the defaults for apticron and popcon. If that is a problem or popcon frequently happens during system updates, or while checking for updates (e.g for those who use update-notifier, which doesn't include me) then this could happen fairly often. Perhaps popcon needs to check if the database is in use, just like any other apt consumer? A wishlist or minor bug to this effect, perhaps? I think the latter of the above two is the more likely. Of course, all of the above is guesswork... -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: 1 of 400 dpkg databases corrupt?
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:07:48 +0200 Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Another possibility might be a group of people having popcon and something like cron-apt installed at the same time; if both cronjobs trigger at approximately the same time, that would greatly increase the chance that popcon is indeed trying to read the dpkg database at the time when cron-apt is rewriting it. Oh yes, another cron job for dpkg/apt: apt-cacher or apt-cacher-ng which does a daily download of package lists and checks for expired packages in the cache. So I think Wouter is right and there are more packages that do automatic package list updates than one might think at first. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org The C Shore: http://www.wightman.ca/~cshore signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: bitmap fonts: Can they be rejected by default instead of with manual intervention?
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:39:29 -0700 Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any reason this isn't the default behaviour? It is the default. /var/lib/dpkg/info/fontconfig-config.templates: Template: fontconfig/enable_bitmaps Type: boolean Default: false Description: Enable bitmapped fonts by default? Hmmm...I don't know how mine got to this state then. Probably did dpkg-reconfigure and forgot I had done so. Anyway it's cool that it's the default. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: bitmap fonts: Can they be rejected by default instead of with manual intervention?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:46:25 +0200 Miriam Ruiz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/8/22 Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:39:29 -0700 Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any reason this isn't the default behaviour? It is the default. Hmmm...I don't know how mine got to this state then. Probably did dpkg-reconfigure and forgot I had done so. Anyway it's cool that it's the default. I don't have the symlink to /etc/fonts/conf.avail/70-no-bitmaps.conf in /etc/fonts/conf.d that you mention in my computer either, and I didn't modify anything there myself. Are you sure it's the default? Hmmm...maybe I'd didn't set it manually then (I certainly don't remember doing so). It looks like this is either a change behaviour (and kept the old one when upgrading the package where this is the default, or there is a bug in fontconfig. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: bitmap fonts: Can they be rejected by default instead of with manual intervention?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:46:25 +0200 Miriam Ruiz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/8/22 Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:39:29 -0700 Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any reason this isn't the default behaviour? It is the default. Hmmm...I don't know how mine got to this state then. Probably did dpkg-reconfigure and forgot I had done so. Anyway it's cool that it's the default. I don't have the symlink to /etc/fonts/conf.avail/70-no-bitmaps.conf in /etc/fonts/conf.d that you mention in my computer either, and I didn't modify anything there myself. Are you sure it's the default? Did you say Yes instead of No to the bitmapped fonts question when fontconfig-config was upgraded? I don't know if I did or not (intentionally I mean. I don't remember if I just hit ENTER to accept defaults or if I (stupidly) changed it). It's one of those questions that one doesn't necessarily understand the consequences of, even after reading the message text. Or perhaps I hit ENTER but because it was Yes in previous versions of fontconfig, the Yes was the default instead of No (which is what I want, really). Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: bitmap fonts: Can they be rejected by default instead of with manual intervention?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:19:07 +0800 Paul Wise [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Installing fontconfig (or just fontconfig-config) in a sid cowbuilder chroot results in neither symlink being installed. This correlates with my memory of having to tweak the fontconfig directory after installing lenny/amd64 just before DebConf8. Okay, I have used reportbug to file a bug report. It may or may not actually get filed since I've been having trouble getting things thorugh to bugs.debian.org and sometimes lists.debian.org. I have sent a message to listmaster, but I don't know if it will get there or if I'll have to get someone to proxy for me in order get my problem to them (since they are at lists.debian.org and that domain seems to be an issue, at least for some message; although the ones to debian-devel seem to be getting through fine, now). -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
bitmap fonts: Can they be rejected by default instead of with manual intervention?
Hi all, I recently had trouble with a website that uses Times and Helvetica which I was able to determine was due to unscaled fonts not printing well. It took some digging but I eventually, after exploring links and browsing /etc/fonts based on a link about something else for mozilla that I was led to by a message on debian-user, was able to find out that /etc/fonts/conf.d needed a symlink to ../conf.avail/70-no-bitmaps.conf which causes the font server to reject unscaled fonts. Is there any reason this isn't the default behaviour? It seems to me that problems for a regular user who has printing that mysteriously is illegible are more likely than someone actually needing the unscaled bitmap fonts on the font server. Are there any packages that actual *require* the bitmapped unscaled fonts? Perhaps this is part of the unix-like system goal where someone will say 'where the heck is x' if it's disabled? If that's the case, is there anyway to make rejecting them the default behaviour for a desktop, or even if fontconfig is installed, and disabling be a documented manual action in that case, and including them only be the default if there is not fontconfig or maybe desktop? If it's not to be the default is there a place where this change can be clearly documented (and a good place to look for other regular-user-desktop-gotchas-that-won't-be-changed) so that I can point people for whom I install debian to it, and/or print it, and/or create a custom post-install (or modified d-i) that does it automatically? Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
On Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:13:30 +0700 Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Twas brillig at 13:08:40 06.07.2008 UTC-04 when [EMAIL PROTECTED] did gyre and gimble: JH So, after sufficient time, the gnome menu will contain a random JH assortment of the menu items that also appear in the debian menu. fd.o menus are designed to allow distro-specific policy. It's the matter of Debian KDE/Gnome packaging/menu policy to get the proper subset of the packages in menu (e.g. moving Gnome/gtk applications deeper in KDE menu and Qt/KDE - in Gnome one). But that's just the point; there is no policy. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
For discussion: Gnome, KDE, and XFCE are the the top three desktops used in debian and cover most users of desktops in debian. They all use xdg .desktop-based menus as their main menu. xdg .desktop-based menus are not covered by policy. This means some maintainers refuse to use them (see bug #478954 and #478916). The main menu (meaning the primary menu used for program selection; I don't include quick access menus which have a small selection of often used programs) should either be the debian-menu or all packages which are supposed to have menu entires should also be required to supply .desktop files. Having a dual-menu scheme in policy is ugly. Currently the debian-menu is a submenu of the main menu, called 'Debian'. Having the main menu, where users, especially new users, expect to find all their programs not be canonical is also ugly. Having the canonical menu as a submenu (currently the case) means the programs are at least available but you have to know to look there when you can't find it in the main menu, and looking in two places to find a program is a pain. You could always look in the debian menu always, but then why have the main menu? menu-xdg provides the 'Debian' menu (or main menu if that is the choice debian makes) from debian-menu entries as an xdg-compliant menu and entries. desktops that want to have .desktop entries for specific programs ought to be responsible for creating the code that merges the debian main menu with their main menu (e.g. in menu-xdg), rather than forcing every other application in debian to do their work for them. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:54:30 +0200 Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop entries for the menu in the main menu namespace and not the 'Debian' namespace; this seems like the easiest solution. +1 I don't think that the idea of superseding menu lacks support, it lacks people doing the work (and the coding part seems small compared to creating a mapping the categories, preferably in both directions, and come up with a sane policy). Also, this seems to be something to do shortly after a release... I've been approaching this as a sort-of-integrator point of view (I've been working on systems I've been giving away, and have been developing automation for the installation process that happens after debian-installer, and will be moving that to using debian-installer once I have figured out what I need. The results of this will probably be in lenny+1, but in the meantime I've got a post-install setup that lets me install a 'standard' system, and then run the post-install and end up with what I want) rather than dd point-of-view (because I'm not, et). In any event if there is already a nice summary of what needs doing, and any tips on how to do it, I'm game to work on it for lenny+1. I'd still like to see the debian menu as the main menu for lenny though ... though I may be the only one. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:54:30 +0200 Thomas Viehmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Wise wrote: On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM, William Pitcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for their menus. I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it has been replaced with a standard used and supported by many upstreams and many other distros. However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better solution though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which do not support XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?) Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop entries for the menu in the main menu namespace and not the 'Debian' namespace; this seems like the easiest solution. +1 I don't think that the idea of superseding menu lacks support, it lacks people doing the work (and the coding part seems small compared to creating a mapping the categories, preferably in both directions, and come up with a sane policy). Also, this seems to be something to do shortly after a release... Which makes coming up with sane policy around now a good idea, methinks. (So development can be underway and implemented by lenny+1). Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
miBoot floppies for debian-installer and use of people.debian.org
Hi all, I have a question. I have at various times been interested on getting Debian working on an Old World PowerPC Macintosh and have come across a situation that confuses me. I was able to get the mac working with the use of floppies that include a tool call miBoot, that are distributed on people.debian.org/~dontremember. The main debian-installer daily builds do not include the miBoot floppy images. The thing is the reason they are not part of debian proper is that miBoot is non-free and possibly non-distributable (see below). My question is whether including them on p.p.o is therefore a violation of debian policy? It seems odd to me that p.p.o should be used as a way around debian policy. miBoot is GPL but requires CodeWarrior (a proprietary compiler) to build, and *cannot* be built with free tools (although work is underway to change this). My understanding of the debian interpretation of of the GPL is that this makes miBoot non-distributable because under the GPL everything required to build the binaries must be available as source, including the compiler (unless the compiler is part of the system the code is built on, which is not the case here) and since the compiler is not available as source code debian cannot meet its GPL obligations for miBoot-based binaries. Am I mistaken in the debian policy in this regard, and if not, what's the deal with distributing it on p.p.o? I'd like this question resolved one way or another because at the moment Old World Macs are in a kind of limbo between official support and a clear statement that they cannot be supported. Regards, Daniel -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: ITP: adun.app -- a Molecular Simulator
On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 09:24:21PM +1000, Steffen Joeris wrote: Hi * Package name: adun.app Maybe I miss some essential parts, but I always wonder why some people add a .app to the software name? Can you please give me a short explanation or point me to a previous thread? IIRC .app is usually used by apps with gnustep support (e.g. WindowMaker dockapps). It doesn't normally mean they only work on gnustep though, just that they use some features from gnustep, when available. -- GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 01:17:42PM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: At the beginning of my comments, there has been a statement from Rudy: We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they tell that we can't? nothing. and as his message continues (25.08.2006 00:51) I have objected, that if viewed from angle of average-Joe-user, Debian lacks many things to compare with Ubuntu. Whoever wants to use computer, not do hacking and testing, will reach for stable system. Comparing latest *stable* release of Debian with latest *stable* release of Ubuntu is therefore appropriate, like it or not. It's not fault of Ubuntu if the results are not too attractive for Then lets look at how stable ubuntu stable is or is not. I know I've seen posts on these lists suggesting that ubuntu stable tends to pull in things from debian unstable[1] and is therefore less stable. If that really is the case then comparing debian stable to ubuntu stable is in fact not a fair comparison (or rather comparing *only* versions of upstream software is not reasonable). Sometime ago I read suggestions that running debian testing is approximately equivalent to running other distributions' stable releases, however I can't seem to find where that came from (too much chatter to pick anything up in a quick google search). So if we're going to talk about a fair comparison, let's make sure we're comparing stability and number of bugs in the release as well. Also, what about bugs that get introduced by other bug or security fixes? How often do they happen in debian compared to other projects, and when they do, how quickly are they found and fixed? What about Debian stable compared to RHEL or Ubuntu server in a serer environment with Debian testing compared to fedora and ubuntu on the desktop? I personally use debian stable on my home server, with a mixed stable/volatile/testing/(few)unstable set of packages on my desktop. The truth is though, once Etch comes out I will probably stick with stable. Certain projects like OpenOffice.org (2.0.x) and Mozilla (1.5.x) are starting to mature to the point where I won't feel that upgrading them (aside from security fixes) frequently is necessary. Back in the day (late 80's, early 90's) users of DOS, and then Windows 3.1, had an os that didn't change much for years at a time, and once you bought a software package you were usually stuck with that version until you bought another one. I think part of what has happened with gnu/linux is that it has taken a significant amount of time to mature with some major components (gnome/kde, mozilla, ooo) only being relative newcomers when compared to apps like MS Word (first release in the early 80's for DOS). Sarge (note: Sarge! I don't compare Woody.) If Etch was claimed stable at the time, I would compare him, however he has some half [1]http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/08/msg01116.html -- GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore signature.asc Description: Digital signature
One non-DD's thoughts on dfsg-freeness and firmware
I know previously I said I thought that firmware didn't matter for freeness, but I've been convinced by the arguments here that I was wrong. Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that as a user (who hopes to get time to contribute, maybe even eventually as a DD), that I chose Debian because of the Social Contract, and DFSG-freeness. I would rather have to watch what hardware I by then lose the benefits of software freedom. For me the whole point of free software is not that I can download it free of charge, but that I can change it, or hire someone to do so, rather than depending on the good will (or same interests), of some large monopolistic corporation. Software freedom is about choice. That said, there are definite areas that need improvement, and which, for many users, overshadow the ideals of software freedom. I will soon be facing a tough choice between what I value about Debian, and the likely fact of another distribution being selected as the local LUG standard (the objective of having a standard distro is to make support after an installfest more likely and more effective) because of concerns about easy of use, especially for new users. Cheers, Daniel -- GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: ITP: openwatcom -- C/C++ compiler and IDE that produce efficient, portable code
On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 05:35:52PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2006-07-03 09:04:39, schrieb Lars Wirzenius: su, 2006-07-02 kello 18:17 -0400, Jason Spiro kirjoitti: * Package name: openwatcom Description : C/C++ compiler and IDE that produce efficient, portable code You should check the list archives. Others have proposed to package openwatcom, but there are license issues that prevent it from being in debian, even in non-free. Cheers, Daniel -- GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Is inability to operate with root read-only (and separate /etc, /dev, etc) a bug or design decision?
A little while back I tried to setup a system that used a read-only root filesystem during regular operation and ran into some problems during boot. The first is that /etc needs to be read-write but init scripts break badly if /etc is not on the root filesystem (probably could be fixed in initramfs-tools). The second problem I had was that, before udev is ready, /dev needs to be writable (this was with sarge; maybe initramfs-tools already solves this). I will do testing with etch if this is something that should work. -- GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Place to submit scripts useful for Debian
On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 07:31:56AM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.07.25.0324 +0100]: I have written a script that I think would be useful in Debian. It seems excessive to make a package for for it, but a quick google for 'debian scripts' didn't turn up any convenient websites or repositories, so I thought I'd ask here where would be a good place to submit scripts. This script would be useful outside of Debian as well (although I don't quite see what it does that dd or pv don't. But then again Well, I intend to do an update-menu thing that calls 'fburn --gui', which makes for a somewhat friendly interface from a window manager menu or icon. Also it doesn't just blast out the image and hope it's okay; unless you specify otherwise, the script will verify (using cmp) that the image can be read back and, if not, will reformat the floppy and try again (exactly once). I did this after far too many bad floppies (a combination of flaky drives and the fact that floppy quality is absolutely horrible these days). I suggest you submit the script to the fdutils package. Thanks! That's the sort of info I was looking for :-) -- GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Place to submit scripts useful for Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
I have written a script that I think would be useful in Debian. It
seems excessive to make a package for for it, but a quick google for
'debian scripts' didn't turn up any convenient websites or
repositories, so I thought I'd ask here where would be a good place to
submit scripts.
The script follows:
#!/bin/bash
# Depends on bash, getopt, dd, cmp, superformat, pv, tee, dialog, and
# zenity
# In debian these are provided by the following packages: bash,
# util-linux, coreutils, diff, fdutils, pv, dialog, and zenity
# fburn 1.1 is used to write raw data (usually a floppy image) to a
# floppy.
# copyright (C) 2006 Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
# it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
# the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
# (at your option) any later version.
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
# Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA
display_usage () {
echo
echo fburn 1.1 Copyright (C) 2006 Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
echo
echo fburn is used to write raw data (usually a floppy image) to a floppy.
echo its default action is the write the image to floppy, then compare
echo the floppy to the image. If there is an error during the compare
echo stage, fburn will make at reformatting the floppy and rewriting.
echo
echo Usage: fburn [options] [image-to-write]
echo
echo-a|--abort-on-failure Don't try formatting then rewriting the
echo image after a fail in compare or copy
echo
echo-d|--debug Display debugging information
echo
echo-f device|--device device Floppy device name
echo
echo-g|--gui Display progress bars, info boxes, and
echo error messages as GUI dialogs
echo-h|--help This text
echo
echo-i|--initial-formatFormat before writing image, instead
echo only after failing to write
echo-n|--no-dialogsDisplay and prompt on command-line
echo (no popup dialogs)
echo
echo image-to-write can be any file small enough to fit on a floppy
echo though usually it will be a floppy image. If no image is
echo specified a file browser is opened.
echo
}
##
# Exit Codes
#
OK=0
CANCEL=1
ERR_IMAGE=2
ERR_GETOPT=3
ERR_COPYTMP=4
ERR_COPYABORT=5
ERR_CMPTMP=6
ERR_CMPABORT=7
ERR_FORMATTMP=8
ERR_FLOPPYDEVW=9
ERR_FLOPPYDEVR=10
ERR_INITFORMAT=11
ERR_REFORMAT=12
ERR_INITDD=13
#
#
# Other constants
#
#
BLOCKSIZE=512
###
#
# Default settings for options
# false, true
#
###
INITIALFORMAT=false
DEBUG=false
GUI=false
FLOPPYDEV=/dev/fd0
ABORT=false
NODIALOG=false
SKIPLICENSE=false
#
# Parse command line options
#
CMDLINE=$(getopt --long
device:,gui,initial-format,abort-on-failure,debug,no-dialogs,skip-license,help
-o f:giadnsh -- $@)
IMAGE=
if [ $? != 0 ]; then
echo Error parsing options; Terminating. 2 ; exit $ERR_GETOPT
fi
eval set -- $CMDLINE
while true; do
case $1 in
-f|--device)
FLOPPYDEV=$2
shift 2
;;
-g|--gui)
GUI=true
shift
;;
-i|--initial-format)
INITIALFORMAT=true
shift
;;
-a|--abort-on-failure)
ABORT=true
shift
;;
-d|--debug)
DEBUG=true
shift
;;
-n|--no-dialogs)
NODIALOG=true
shift
;;
-s|--skip-license)
SKIPLICENSE=true
shift
;;
-h|--help)
display_usage
exit 0
;;
--)
shift
break
;;
*)
display_usage
exit 2
;;
esac
done
for arg do IMAGE=$arg; break; done
if [ $DEBUG = true ]; then
echo '$IMAGE'
fi
msgbox () {
local CANCELLED
CANCELLED=false
if [ $NODIALOG = true ]; then
echo $1
elif [ $GUI = true ]; then
zenity $2 --text=$1
if [ $? = 1 ]; then
CANCELLED=true
fi
else
dialog --clear
Re: ITP: openwatcom -- C/C++ compiler and IDE that produce efficient, portable code
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 18:17:20 -0400 Jason Spiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: openwatcom Version : I plan to do version 1.4 (or 1.6, if it comes out soon) Upstream Author : an independent team of volunteer contributors * URL : http://www.openwatcom.org/ * License : Sybase Open Watcom Public License 1.0 (it is OSI-approved) Description : C/C++ compiler and IDE that produce But is it DFSG-approved? I think not. Take for instance the click-wrap clause which is specifically pointed out as a no-go for debian. There are other problems with the license too, but this goes, at best, in non-free. Cheers, Daniel - -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFErNWIhvWBpdQuHxwRAuzSAJ9B8IyyiGE7h1magGE70LSwzmlEEACeIZjm fuBavv2LPINAnK95yz4/90Y= =6or3 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Copyright on Debian Wiki?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The copyright link is missing (http://wiki.debian.net/copyright.html) but the copyright was broken anyway (see http://wiki.debian.org/DebianWikiIsNotGFDL). What is the copyright on the wiki, and where is the correct link to the copyright notice, that I might fix the wiki? - -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEq1tlhvWBpdQuHxwRAjOYAJ40A8s0ymLk0EdZlzR7B8nFDpvefACgsuEK xNUkHeOIDL7yoCdb2s8BQ1g= =nJDl -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Netatalk and SSL
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ok, I'm confused. In the netatalk README.Debian it says that the Debian project has decided that OpenSSL is GPL-incompatible and therefore he can't distribute the ssl-based portions of netatalk (like encrypted authentication with classic macs). I was pretty sure that debian had worked something out for linking OpenSSL with debian package. Was it only for specific packages? Is this developer just not aware of the accommodation? Am I totally out to lunch on what's going on with this? Please let me know, Thanks, Daniel - -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFElOWqhvWBpdQuHxwRAmjPAJ9mnjbcbUIHbhOIEIuM7C8AXTtdEACglvR4 6qzWm/I2hFzoKRefRz0Bo4w= =fNWd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Please revoke your signatures from Martin Kraff's keys
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Er, is it just me or isn't the point of gnupg that there *are* people you *can't trust*. We wouldn't be needing digital signatures if everybody honoured the 'gentleman's agreement' that we should only sign as ourselves (or at most as a pseudonym that can't be confused for a real person) in plaintext email. If the KSP is so weak that it depends on gentleman's agreements to work, it's been cracked with unannounced malicious intent already, or soon will be. The whole point of the web of trust is that you should only say you trust people you actually trust. Personally I think a keysigning where I only know people by ID, is at best a marginal trust. GnuPG is about security, and security implies that there is a need to be secure against someone or something. In the case of GnuPG it's people pretending to be something they are not. If you depend on 'acceptable behaviour' to prevent abuse of this system you've already lost, because the person is pretending to who they are not with malicious intent, is not going to honour that understanding. They also won't tell you about it. So, again, what's the point of security if it depends on 'acceptable behaviour' or 'gentleman's agreements' to succeed? - -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEenZ9hvWBpdQuHxwRAqioAJ90MDtm99rqadrB9ix1wt6E/1bWbwCcCeBb fxIQww9KC+oAVaRrIpo3IO4= =ySo4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Debian Light Desktop - meta package
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:44:57 -0300 André Luiz Rodrigues Ferreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi ! I'm creating a meta package for install a lite desktop for old machines with poor hardware. That's an admiral goal, however I would be prepared for a great deal of frustration. I worked on this for a while last year, but I wasn't happy with what I ended up with. I would like to receive opinions about my packages list: - x-window-system-core - xfce4 (beautiful!) You may want to offer a choice of window manager. On low-end machines I'm partial to WindowMaker, but IceWm, FluxBox, or BlackBox are also good choices. - gdm If you're going to pull in gnome depencies anyway gdm is a good choice, otherwise wdm may be better (but AFAIK wdm isn't keyboard-only friendly). - gftp - mozilla-firefox I would also install dillo that the user has a choice between a fast, but no javascript, css, java, flash, etc support (dillo), or a slow (on the hardware you describe) browser that is otherwise great. - mozilla-thunderbird On a P1?! No way. Thunderbird is slower than molasses in January. I would recommend Sylpheed or Sylpheed-claws as a much faster/better alternative. In fact I have recently switched to sylpheed-claws on my personal workstation (Duron 850M/2.2G) because it's so much faster, keyboard-friendly, and I'm finding it a better piece of software. - menu I'd recommend against making an install task that is both about console and GUI. Console vs desktop should be different tasks IMO. They could, however, be part of the same cd (set). - gcalctool (or xcalc) - evince Any particular reason for not just using xpdf? - eog - gaim - zip - unzip - arj - bzip2 - file-roller - gnome-utils - inkscape - gimp - abiword This is what I would use too, but I know someone who swears by LyX on low-end machines, so you may want to check it out. LyX is a GUI for LaTeX (and maybe DocBook, but I'm not clear on that) that is apparently easy to get started with and works well for writing reports and technical documents. - gnumeric - gnumeric-plugins-extra - gnome-system-monitor - firestarter Those all look good. You may also want to toss in a couple of small graphical games. I made some tests with sucess in my machines with the following setup: Pentium 166 MHZ - 64 MB RAM - HD 2 GB What do you mean by success? Installs and can load, or you have tried to do some of your usual activities and found the experience reasonable? I know that when I was working on this, that I was getting frustrated by the speed (though come to think if it, I was also using 32 MB RAM) of firefox and some other apps. I also found that the 1.2 GB drive I had was pretty cramped, and that I couldn't install everything I had on the cd I made up (and which I already considered cramped). Having said that, I have been considering trying again, now that a medical condition is under control and not interfering with my ability to focus, if I can find the time between work (which at present is not even computer related) and the various other projects I have on the go. If you need a tester I will likely be able to help. Also I have a number of scripts and things that I was making to make life easier for this project. I was also trying to go the debian's package list to categorize everything, and to pick out and test various apps that could be useful on a low end machine. Best of luck! Daniel P.S. I have cc'd you because I don't know if you are subscribed to debian-devel or not. - -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEO/dMhvWBpdQuHxwRAvG3AKC9NtRr01Kh0v9zdp6JWdk9RBaatgCgnN8O Dbp0j9nK+gltLRSAbtqPRJw= =cmt1 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
