Re: When and how can we migrate out of CVS and WML ? (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users)

[Craig Small]

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 08:19:47PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
   Hi!
 
 * Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org [2010-07-29 16:53:18 CEST]:
  Le Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:32:54PM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit :
   * 2010-07-23 00:27 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
in my opinion, it is not only a question of design, but of
infrastructure. For me, the combination of CVS and WML finally eroded
all my motivation over the years for keeping some life in the pages
under /devel/debian-med. I would welcome any change of VCS and
language, even if it means losing the history or rewriting the pages
from scratch.
 
  Rewriting everything from scratch would include losing translation
 effort which is very huge. I actually don't welcome changes that tell
 our translators technicly: Thanks for your effort so far, but we throw
 it all away.
 
  About change of VCS - there are (minor) efforts going on with respect
 to try out wether git would work as backend. Any help is of course
 appreciated, in any direction. I would welcome any change too, but to
 some degree that sentence has the sounding of if someone else does it
 added to it.
I don't really mind switching from CVS to git, or remaining on CVS for
that matter.  I prefer git but it really is not that big an issue.

  As about moving away from WML: I am open for something that offers us
 also the needed flexibility for pulling in automated information and
 doesn't put too much burden onto our translators.
WML is the only one where I've seen those language slices.  It seems
to do its job rather well though I am aware of kludges within the 
website backend to do its stuff at times.

The problem with replacing WML is; what do you replace it with? and will
it bring any real benefit?

Admitedly for my own pages I've moved away from wml in places but that's
because I'm using smarty AND I'm using that for different reasons to
what the website needs.

 - Craig

-- 
Craig Small  GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE  95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5
http://www.enc.com.au/ csmall at : enc.com.au
http://www.debian.org/  Debian GNU/Linux, software should be Free 


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100730055013.gb8...@enc.com.au

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2010-07-23 00:27 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:

 Le Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:54:16AM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit :
 Debian's attractiveness (or perhaps the lack of it) is probably a sum
 of several different things. I think one of those things is the front
 page http://www.debian.org. The page may implicitly suggest that
 there is nothing happening in the project. It looks almost always the
 same, almost like one of those abandoned projects.
 
 I understand the patched are welcome nature of the project but
 there has already been an example implementations for the front page.
 A couple of years back there was lengthy discussion which even made
 me feel that now it's really happening, the front page will change
 soon, but still nothing. Were do those suggestions go?

 in my opinion, it is not only a question of design, but of
 infrastructure. For me, the combination of CVS and WML finally eroded
 all my motivation over the years for keeping some life in the pages
 under /devel/debian-med. I would welcome any change of VCS and
 language, even if it means losing the history or rewriting the pages
 from scratch.

Yes, sometimes it's not enough to send patches to an established
project. Indeed starting a different (web) project, possibly with
different infrastructure, may be needed if one wants to change things.

Well, I don't understand much about web programming myself so this is
just talk.

-- 
Feel free to Cc me your replies if you want to make sure I'll notice
them. I can't read all the list mail.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ocdqeipl@mithlond.arda

Re : Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Anthony Berger]

i think so
the web page should be change. it seems like a old project. !

the question is; what could replace the existing langage

does a cms could replace the wml code



- Message d'origine -
De : Teemu Likonen
Envoyés : 29.07.10 11:32
À : debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Objet : Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

* 2010-07-23 00:27 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:  Le Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 
11:54:16AM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit :  Debian's attractiveness (or 
perhaps the lack of it) is probably a sum  of several different things. I 
think one of those things is the front  page http://www.debian.org. The 
page may implicitly suggest that  there is nothing happening in the project. 
It looks almost always the  same, almost like one of those abandoned 
projects.   I understand the patched are welcome nature of the project 
but  there has already been an example implementations for the front page.  
A couple of years back there was lengthy discussion which even made  me feel 
that now it's really happening, the front page will change  soon, but still 
nothing. Were do those suggestions go?  in my opinion, it is not only a 
question of design, but of  infrastructure. For me, the combination of CVS and 
WML finally eroded  all my motivation over the years for keeping some 
 life in the pages  under /devel/debian-med. I would welcome any change of VCS 
and  language, even if it means losing the history or rewriting the pages  
from scratch. Yes, sometimes it's not enough to send patches to an established 
project. Indeed starting a different (web) project, possibly with different 
infrastructure, may be needed if one wants to change things. Well, I don't 
understand much about web programming myself so this is just talk. -- Feel free 
to Cc me your replies if you want to make sure I'll notice them. I can't read 
all the list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to 
debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? 
Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/87ocdqeipl@mithlond.arda

When and how can we migrate out of CVS and WML ? (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users)

[Charles Plessy]

Le Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:32:54PM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit :
 * 2010-07-23 00:27 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
 
  in my opinion, it is not only a question of design, but of
  infrastructure. For me, the combination of CVS and WML finally eroded
  all my motivation over the years for keeping some life in the pages
  under /devel/debian-med. I would welcome any change of VCS and
  language, even if it means losing the history or rewriting the pages
  from scratch.
 
 Yes, sometimes it's not enough to send patches to an established
 project. Indeed starting a different (web) project, possibly with
 different infrastructure, may be needed if one wants to change things.

Indeed, I am starting to wonder if it would be possible to use redirections or
aliases to allow a step-by-step transition… Instead of looking for volunteers
to migrate the whole website, perhaps we should focus on giving flexibility for
people who care about a particular branch to use a different system, provided
that it follows some appearance and translation standards.

Perhaps this discussion should better be continued on debian-...@l.d.o…

-- 
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team,
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100729145318.gb20...@merveille.plessy.net

Re: When and how can we migrate out of CVS and WML ? (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users)

[Gerfried Fuchs]

Hi!

* Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org [2010-07-29 16:53:18 CEST]:
 Le Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:32:54PM +0300, Teemu Likonen a écrit :
  * 2010-07-23 00:27 (+0900), Charles Plessy wrote:
   in my opinion, it is not only a question of design, but of
   infrastructure. For me, the combination of CVS and WML finally eroded
   all my motivation over the years for keeping some life in the pages
   under /devel/debian-med. I would welcome any change of VCS and
   language, even if it means losing the history or rewriting the pages
   from scratch.

 Rewriting everything from scratch would include losing translation
effort which is very huge. I actually don't welcome changes that tell
our translators technicly: Thanks for your effort so far, but we throw
it all away.

 About change of VCS - there are (minor) efforts going on with respect
to try out wether git would work as backend. Any help is of course
appreciated, in any direction. I would welcome any change too, but to
some degree that sentence has the sounding of if someone else does it
added to it.

 As about moving away from WML: I am open for something that offers us
also the needed flexibility for pulling in automated information and
doesn't put too much burden onto our translators.

 Just to give you an idea what I am trying to avoid: the SPI website
changed from CVS + WML years ago, and was well translated at that time.
Go to http://www.spi-inc.org/ and try to find translated pages. Or
even other updates, the last News item reads 2008, all the resolutions
are gone from the site too.

 This is definitely not something that you'll find me appreciate or push
forward. Debian is an international community and wants, no, scratch
that, _needs_ to reach out to people in their native languages.

  Yes, sometimes it's not enough to send patches to an established
  project. Indeed starting a different (web) project, possibly with
  different infrastructure, may be needed if one wants to change things.

 I would be really interested in ideas and discussions about possible
different infrastructure. I'm definitely not opposed to change (mind
you, that's why I am working on getting http://git.deb.at/,
http://packages.deb.at/en/ and http://www.deb.at/index.en.html
deployed). Please speak up so we can properly discuss things. But please
understand that there is minimum requirements and simply throwing
everything away isn't a good idea.

 Indeed, I am starting to wonder if it would be possible to use redirections or
 aliases to allow a step-by-step transition…

 A how big list of redirections and aliases do you have in mind that you
want to have deployed to the mirror network? How many external links are
you willing to intentionally break by what's spinning around in your
mind?

 Instead of looking for volunteers to migrate the whole website,
 perhaps we should focus on giving flexibility for people who care
 about a particular branch to use a different system, provided that it
 follows some appearance and translation standards.

 Splitting the site into different smaller pieces that all do go their
own approaches, potential all in different directions, won't improve
things IMNSHO, and potential shy away translators for having to follow
several tiny bits.

 Or you have something completely different in mind and are just not
able to transport it in your writing - then pretty please try to
rephrase so that I can understand your proposal better.

 Perhaps this discussion should better be continued on debian-...@l.d.o…

 Yes, please let's keep such discussions on here, after all the list is
exactly for that. :)

 Enjoy!
Rhonda
-- 
Lediglich 11 Prozent der Arbeitgeber sind der Meinung, dass jeder
Mensch auch ein Privatleben haben sollte.
-- http://www.karriere.at/artikel/884/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100729181947.ga8...@anguilla.debian.or.at

Re: Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Simon Paillard]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 07:53:55AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le lundi 26 juillet 2010 à 20:19 +0200, Magnus Berg a écrit :
  And you wonder: How to make Debian more attractive for users. :-)
  
  First thing: Average Linux user may not be very interested in spam
  hunting.
  Second thing: If you intend to be attractive for the average Linux
  user - Ubuntu users for instance - keep in mind that most users want a
  user friendly, easy to use distro, with helpful and understanding
  crew. If you intend to keep on working with computer nerds in mind you
  will never be attractive for the average Linux user.
 
 We want the distribution to be friendly and easy to use by anyone.
 
 We want to receive bug reports only from computer nerds since they are
 the ones who write useful reports.
 
 How are those two statements incompatible?

IMO because lambda user and average nerd don't use the same software, or
at least not in the same way, so they don't experience the same bugs.
(gnome-app-install, some specific usages of gedit or gui admin apps, games for 
children)

That would be interessting to get a stats per source pkg:
number of bugs submitted / popcon(vote)

-- 
Simon Paillard


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100728213814.ga31...@dedibox.ebzao.info

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Raphael Hertzog]

Hi,

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, Michael Gilbert wrote:
 On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:49:00 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
  Simply, we do not need to, and should not, make reporting bugs easier.
 
 As a point of reference, Ubuntu disabled their easy-to-find http bug
 submission page because of this very problem.  Although it is still
 possible to submit bugs via http, you need to know the url scheme;
 something like http://launchpad.net/bugs/package/+submit.

While I remember such a proposal, it doesn't look like implemented.

On https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus, you have Report a bug
on the right and it takes you to the web-based submission form.

But in various places they are documenting the use of ubuntu-bug rather
than going through the web interface.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693]

Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English)
  ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100727061312.gb26...@rivendell

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Josselin Mouette]

Le lundi 26 juillet 2010 à 14:57 -0400, Andres Mejia a écrit :
 Here's a template reportbug prints out for iceweasel.
[snip]
 Versions of packages iceweasel depends on:
 ii  debianutils   3.4Miscellaneous utilities specific 
 t
 ii  fontconfig2.8.0-2.1  generic font configuration 
 library
 ii  libc6 2.11.2-2   Embedded GNU C Library: Shared 
 lib
[snip]

 Now with some additional prompts to the user to get subject and body,
 I don't 
 see how a web app that can get this same information as reportbug can
 not be 
 developed.

Yeah sure. With an ActiveX maybe?

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  “Fuck you sir, don’t be suprised when you die if
`. `'   you burn in Hell, because I am a solid Christian
  `-and I am praying for you.”   --  Mike


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1280213881.8738.4.ca...@meh

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl]

Am 26.07.2010 21:04, schrieb Russell Gadd:

 I spotted this topic in Debian Project News.

Thanks, you just made my day :)

 I am a non-technical Debian user (Lenny AMD 64 bit)
 Up-to-date flash support is provided by the flashplugin-nonfree package
 available from Debian's unofficial backports.org.
 Thanks for the info Mike

Uhh, sadly Adobe currently doesn't support their flashplugin on the
AMD64 architecture, but with a small trick you an use the 32-Bit version
of the plugin on AMD64.  Please see the instructions on
http://wiki.debian.org/FlashPlayer#Debian5.0.27Lenny.27amd64


Best regards,
  Alexander


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4e9482.4070...@schmehl.info

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Jesús M. Navarro]

Hi, Fernando:

On Tuesday 27 July 2010 04:00:11 Fernando Lemos wrote:
 2010/7/26 Jesús M. Navarro jesus.nava...@undominio.net:

[...]

 How many BTS reports have you closed?

 I don't mean to sound offensive here, but this thread is fruitless.
 All I see is people talking and talking over something they have no
 say in.

Fair enough.

Now: I'm not a DD nor I want to commit time to become one, while I may have 
time from time to time.  What's the way I can help?  Since parent poster was 
worried about more bugs meaning more time to triage, how can I help triaging 
bugs?

 This is free software. If you want to get your idea implemented,
 either file a bug report and patiently wait (and leave debian-devel
 alone) or implement it yourself. Talk is cheap.

Now I stepped forward.  Show me your talk wasn't a cheap one too.

Cheers.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201007271113.04612.jesus.nava...@undominio.net

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 27/07/10 at 11:13 +0200, Jesús M. Navarro wrote:
 Hi, Fernando:
 
 On Tuesday 27 July 2010 04:00:11 Fernando Lemos wrote:
  2010/7/26 Jesús M. Navarro jesus.nava...@undominio.net:
 
 [...]
 
  How many BTS reports have you closed?
 
  I don't mean to sound offensive here, but this thread is fruitless.
  All I see is people talking and talking over something they have no
  say in.
 
 Fair enough.
 
 Now: I'm not a DD nor I want to commit time to become one, while I may have 
 time from time to time.  What's the way I can help?  Since parent poster was 
 worried about more bugs meaning more time to triage, how can I help triaging 
 bugs?
 
  This is free software. If you want to get your idea implemented,
  either file a bug report and patiently wait (and leave debian-devel
  alone) or implement it yourself. Talk is cheap.
 
 Now I stepped forward.  Show me your talk wasn't a cheap one too.

While it is a nice move to step forward, it is even better when would-be
contributors step forward and figure out by themselves what they should
do and how.

Like all free software projects, we lack contributors, but what we lack
even more strongly are people able to take the initiative/lead on small
subprojects.

Now, regarding triaging, just find a package or a set of packages you
are interested in, look it its bugs, figure out a strategy to go through
the bugs (oldest first, more recent first, higher severity first), and
try to add valuable information to each bug log (have you reproduced it?
it it an upstream problem? is there an upstream bug for that debian bug?
can you think of a patch?)

- Lucas


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100727092600.ga3...@xanadu.blop.info

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2010-07-27, Jesús M. Navarro jesus.nava...@undominio.net wrote:
 Now: I'm not a DD nor I want to commit time to become one, while I may have 
 time from time to time.  What's the way I can help?  Since parent poster was 
 worried about more bugs meaning more time to triage, how can I help triaging 
 bugs?

contact the maintainers behind some applications you are interested in.

I'm sure the
 kde people
 gnome people
 xfce people
 firefox/iceweasel people
 thunderbird/icedove people
 OOo people
 Apache people
 and many others

would love to have people helping with the bugs.

but a important thing for your motivation is that you help with things
you actively use.

I can give pointers to the various groups of people after having heard
about your preferences.

/Sune
 - one of the kde'ers.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrni4t9kg.rvp.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Ian Jackson]

Fernando Lemos writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: 
Re: The number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
 This is free software. If you want to get your idea implemented,
 either file a bug report and patiently wait (and leave debian-devel
 alone) or implement it yourself. Talk is cheap.

In context this could be read as an invitation to write the code to
allow web bug submission.  Of course such code would not be accepted,
and no-one should be encouraged to write it.

Ian.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/19534.48146.634688.560...@chiark.greenend.org.uk

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Yves-Alexis Perez]

On 27/07/2010 12:59, Ian Jackson wrote:
 Fernando Lemos writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, 
 was: Re: The number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
 This is free software. If you want to get your idea implemented,
 either file a bug report and patiently wait (and leave debian-devel
 alone) or implement it yourself. Talk is cheap.
 
 In context this could be read as an invitation to write the code to
 allow web bug submission.  Of course such code would not be accepted,
 and no-one should be encouraged to write it.
 
Isn't that what #590269 is about?

Cheers,
-- 
Yves-Alexis


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4ecd6b.7060...@debian.org

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:13 AM, Yves-Alexis Perez cor...@debian.org wrote:

 Isn't that what #590269 is about?

No, that seems to be more about a SOAP (over HTTP) transport for
reportbug/bts to file and manipulate bugs.

Ian is probably talking about a Web 2.0 site with social bookmarking,
tag clouds, AJAX, microformats, HTML5 video tutorials, mashups,
growing front-end infomediaries, recontextualizable cross-platform
deliverables and no way to automatically report dependencies or run
bug scripts. More seriously, I wonder if the latter could be achieved
with a browser plugin and if anyone is interested in working on that.
I imagine Ubuntu would be very interested in such a plugin too.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=husskrxrfu2oe_9hqcc2ef+rsip-bxbwjj...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Ian Jackson]

Yves-Alexis Perez writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, 
was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
 On 27/07/2010 12:59, Ian Jackson wrote:
  In context this could be read as an invitation to write the code to
  allow web bug submission.  Of course such code would not be accepted,
  and no-one should be encouraged to write it.
  
 Isn't that what #590269 is about?

No, as Paul Wise says, #590269 is about using HTTP as a data transport
rather than SMTP, which is fine.

The thing that is not fine is making a web page so that people who
don't know how to write bug reports can use their browser to submit
messages saying it didn't work.

Ian.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/19534.60502.905846.540...@chiark.greenend.org.uk

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2010, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le lundi 26 juillet 2010 à 14:57 -0400, Andres Mejia a écrit :
  Here's a template reportbug prints out for iceweasel.
 [snip]
  Versions of packages iceweasel depends on:
  ii  debianutils   3.4Miscellaneous utilities 
  specific t
  ii  fontconfig2.8.0-2.1  generic font configuration 
  library
  ii  libc6 2.11.2-2   Embedded GNU C Library: Shared 
  lib
 [snip]
 
  Now with some additional prompts to the user to get subject and body,
  I don't 
  see how a web app that can get this same information as reportbug can
  not be 
  developed.
 
 Yeah sure. With an ActiveX maybe?

With a free form field called System specific information, please paste
here the output of “reportbug --template package”.

That could even be reasonable.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693]

Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English)
  ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100727145603.gd30...@rivendell

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 04:56:03PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
 With a free form field called System specific information, please paste
 here the output of “reportbug --template package”.
 
 That could even be reasonable.

Except many people won't bother doing that.

Currently, the barrier to submitting bugs manually (that is, through
mail but without the use of reportbug) makes it less common for people
to file useless bug reports.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a webinterface, but
perhaps make it easier to find that webinterface if people use
reportbug. That is, have a desktop icon file a bug that causes
reportbug to gather the necessary information from the local system,
submit an HTTP request with template information over SOAP or some such,
receive an HTTP URL from the server, and then fire off sensible-browser
with said URL to allow the user to fill in whatever needs to be filled
in.

People who know what they're doing can of course still figure out how to
file bug reports using just their web interface, just like people who
know what they're doing can file bug reports using just their MUA today.
But I don't see why we should make it easy for people to file useless
bugreports.

-- 
The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters
works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is
trying to fool the system.
  http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100727151217.gh11...@celtic.nixsys.be

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Roland Mas]

Josselin Mouette, 2010-07-27 08:58:01 +0200 :


[...]

 Now with some additional prompts to the user to get subject and body,
 I don't see how a web app that can get this same information as
 reportbug can not be developed.

 Yeah sure. With an ActiveX maybe?

Probably easier: add a CGI-like interface to reportbug, and open a
browser on it?  Since it *is* reportbug, it can continue grabbing
whatever information is relevant using its scripts.  And then it's a
matter of a menu entry (or a big fat icon) running reportbug --http 
sensible-browser http://localhost:$some-port/;.  AJAX to taste, then
submit via local or remote SMTP.

Roland.
-- 
Roland Mas

Plus on en fout, plus y'en a du riz.
  -- Proverbe chinois.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/87wrsgyl4t@mirexpress.internal.placard.fr.eu.org

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2010, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 04:56:03PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
  With a free form field called System specific information, please paste
  here the output of “reportbug --template package”.
  
  That could even be reasonable.
 
 Except many people won't bother doing that.

The CGI could verify that the field is not empty and that it contains
the usual reportbug markers (like -- System Information:).

 I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a webinterface, but
 perhaps make it easier to find that webinterface if people use
 reportbug. That is, have a desktop icon file a bug that causes
 reportbug to gather the necessary information from the local system,
 submit an HTTP request with template information over SOAP or some such,
 receive an HTTP URL from the server, and then fire off sensible-browser
 with said URL to allow the user to fill in whatever needs to be filled
 in.

That's another interesting alternative. But it requires status storage on
the server between the SOAP request and the HTTP request coming from the
user's browser.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693]

Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English)
  ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100727160442.ga31...@rivendell

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 06:04:42PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
 On Tue, 27 Jul 2010, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
  On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 04:56:03PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
   With a free form field called System specific information, please paste
   here the output of “reportbug --template package”.
   
   That could even be reasonable.
  
  Except many people won't bother doing that.
 
 The CGI could verify that the field is not empty and that it contains
 the usual reportbug markers (like -- System Information:).
 
  I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a webinterface, but
  perhaps make it easier to find that webinterface if people use
  reportbug. That is, have a desktop icon file a bug that causes
  reportbug to gather the necessary information from the local system,
  submit an HTTP request with template information over SOAP or some such,
  receive an HTTP URL from the server, and then fire off sensible-browser
  with said URL to allow the user to fill in whatever needs to be filled
  in.
 
 That's another interesting alternative. But it requires status storage on
 the server between the SOAP request and the HTTP request coming from the
 user's browser.

Yes, of course, but that's not the biggest problem -- there are many
ways of doing that in a sane manner.

-- 
The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters
works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is
trying to fool the system.
  http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100727165201.go11...@celtic.nixsys.be

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Vincent Bernat]

OoO Lors  de la soirée naissante  du mardi 27 juillet  2010, vers 17:55,
Roland Mas lola...@debian.org disait :

 Probably easier: add a CGI-like interface to reportbug, and open a
 browser on it?  Since it *is* reportbug, it can continue grabbing
 whatever information is relevant using its scripts.  And then it's a
 matter of a menu entry (or a big fat icon) running reportbug --http 
 sensible-browser http://localhost:$some-port/;.  AJAX to taste, then
 submit via local or remote SMTP.

This seems a sensible idea. However, any web interface would lead to the
same  problems that  were  raised with  reportbug-ng.  To my  knowledge,
useful  bug reports  need to  run interactive  console scripts  for some
packages. This could be solved with some AJAX terminal.
-- 
panic(Unable to find empty mailbox for aha1542.\n);
2.2.16 /usr/src/linux/drivers/scsi/aha1542.c


pgp9MTWJEILpw.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Sandro Tosi]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 17:12, Wouter Verhelst wou...@debian.org wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 04:56:03PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
 With a free form field called System specific information, please paste
 here the output of “reportbug --template package”.

 That could even be reasonable.

 Except many people won't bother doing that.

exactly

 Currently, the barrier to submitting bugs manually (that is, through
 mail but without the use of reportbug) makes it less common for people
 to file useless bug reports.

 I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a webinterface, but
 perhaps make it easier to find that webinterface if people use
 reportbug. That is, have a desktop icon file a bug that causes
 reportbug to gather the necessary information from the local system,
 submit an HTTP request with template information over SOAP or some such,
 receive an HTTP URL from the server, and then fire off sensible-browser
 with said URL to allow the user to fill in whatever needs to be filled
 in.

I find this method very nice to give the users an immediate feedback
their bugs was successfully reported.

OTOH, the proposal above would use something similar to --template
output to feed a webform where only teh body and the subject of the
repot is missing (or those the only 2 things a john doe user would
add), in that case, I don't see the advantage over a simple reportbug.
you don't like cli? ok, give it a try to GTK+ UI - make that file a
bug icon open the GTK+ UI for reportbug. We develop it with being
user friendlier than the cli version, so use it, let us know if you
like it and if there something to fix/adjust, report a bug :)

Regards,
-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktimrst5xj2v085v6xe59mo9qpythfq4b=cvig...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010, Teemu Likonen wrote:
 * 2010-07-25 12:54 (+0200), Marc Haber wrote:
 
  stable = release
  testing = current
  unstable = development
 
 I like these. They describe the three distributions well and current
 might encourage more users than testing. Advertising constantly
 usable and trendy rolling release would surely help.

+1

I would not introduce release but just keep stable, it describes the
distribution well.

But current is definitely a better name for testing and development
(or devel) would be a nice alias for unstable.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693]

Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English)
  ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100726061329.ge26...@rivendell

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Arief M Utama]

 On 26/07/2010 06:08, Olivier Bonvalet wrote:

PS: I don't know how much of this still belongs to d-devel (honestly,
very few of the discussions about reportbug arisen from this thread
does) and so you might probably want to move the conversation to
reportbug-ma...@lists.alioth.debian.org .


I agree, and I already mailed ow...@bugs.debian.org to know if I can 
help for that. So I will continue discussion with them.




Olivier,

If you need any help, I'd like to help creating the web-interface. I 
have some years of experience in php.



All the best.
-arief



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4d46bd.10...@gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Olivier Bonvalet]

Le 26/07/2010 10:26, Arief M Utama a écrit :

 On 26/07/2010 06:08, Olivier Bonvalet wrote:

PS: I don't know how much of this still belongs to d-devel (honestly,
very few of the discussions about reportbug arisen from this thread
does) and so you might probably want to move the conversation to
reportbug-ma...@lists.alioth.debian.org .


I agree, and I already mailed ow...@bugs.debian.org to know if I can 
help for that. So I will continue discussion with them.




Olivier,

If you need any help, I'd like to help creating the web-interface. I 
have some years of experience in php.



All the best.
-arief



Thanks but it's Perl only :(
And of course everybody know that PHP stand for People Hate Perl ;)

So not sure I can help.

Olivier


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4d4891.3080...@daevel.fr

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, Daniel Reurich wrote:
   2) store output in a file, read it, then copy/paste on my MUA : you call
   that user friendly ? ;)
  
  No, but it's a viable solution (and I heard several people are already
  doing similar stuff).
 
 you could improve this and have it call sensible-browser
 mailto:u...@example.com?subject=bug\ Subject\body=bug\ report\ body.
 
 This would automagically put the appropriate information directly into
 the users default email client.
 
 (It would be easier still if sensible-utils included a mail user agent as 
 well,
 then we could just call that.)  Alternatively we could ask the user what
 mua they use (provide a list out of the installed mua's) - and use that.

That's the approach followed by reportbug-ng. I've read reports from the
author that it's not working very well for all the MUA when used through
the xdg-email indirection.

Hence reportbug-ng allows you to pick up your MUA in a list and it uses
MUA specifict options to achieve its goal.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693]

Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English)
  ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100726095637.gb13...@rivendell

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Ian Jackson]

Brian May writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: 
The number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
 I would really like to see a HTML/HTTP browser based interface for the
 BTS. I would have several advantages:

I would strongly resist any such suggestion, for the reasons I have
already explained.

In summary: We don't have a lack of bug reports, we have a lack of
developer time.  Increasing the number of bug reports will take away
developer time for triage, for no benefit.

Simply, we do not need to, and should not, make reporting bugs easier.

Ian.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/19533.30252.279157.139...@chiark.greenend.org.uk

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2010-07-26 08:13 (+0200), Raphael Hertzog wrote:

 * 2010-07-25 12:54 (+0200), Marc Haber wrote:
 stable = release
 testing = current
 unstable = development

 I would not introduce release but just keep stable, it describes
 the distribution well.

Yes, that's it: stable - current - development. Now, who will proceed to
make the change? :-) (I can't, I'm not a DD.)


-- 
Feel free to Cc me your replies if you want to make sure I'll notice
them. I can't read all the list mail.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87y6cy2xiu@mithlond.arda

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Bastian Venthur]

Am 26.07.2010 11:56, schrieb Raphael Hertzog:
 On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, Daniel Reurich wrote:
 (It would be easier still if sensible-utils included a mail user agent as 
 well,
 then we could just call that.)  Alternatively we could ask the user what
 mua they use (provide a list out of the installed mua's) - and use that.
 
 That's the approach followed by reportbug-ng. I've read reports from the
 author that it's not working very well for all the MUA when used through
 the xdg-email indirection.
 
 Hence reportbug-ng allows you to pick up your MUA in a list and it uses
 MUA specifict options to achieve its goal.

Yep, that's correct. I wish xdg-email would work as expected but it does
not so I have to take care of each and every quirk of a MUA if it wants
to be used by reportbug-ng.

If my summer of code project works well, debbugs' SOAP interface will
offer write operations. Then we don't need a MUA to report/manipulate
bugs anymore. That will make things much easier.


Cheers,

Bastian


-- 
Bastian Venthur  http://venthur.de
Debian Developer venthur at debian org



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/i2k8mo$mh...@dough.gmane.org

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Bastian Venthur vent...@debian.org wrote:

 Yep, that's correct. I wish xdg-email would work as expected but it does
 not so I have to take care of each and every quirk of a MUA if it wants
 to be used by reportbug-ng.

Shouldn't those quirks be moved into xdg-email?

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=1fq-2owlsyajhqnmzr1snuskz-lrdwf0tz...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Michael Gilbert]

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:49:00 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
 Brian May writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: 
 The number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
  I would really like to see a HTML/HTTP browser based interface for the
  BTS. I would have several advantages:
 
 I would strongly resist any such suggestion, for the reasons I have
 already explained.
 
 In summary: We don't have a lack of bug reports, we have a lack of
 developer time.  Increasing the number of bug reports will take away
 developer time for triage, for no benefit.
 
 Simply, we do not need to, and should not, make reporting bugs easier.

As a point of reference, Ubuntu disabled their easy-to-find http bug
submission page because of this very problem.  Although it is still
possible to submit bugs via http, you need to know the url scheme;
something like http://launchpad.net/bugs/package/+submit.

I think detailed bug submission instructions (including philosophy on
why bugs are useful, how Debian is different/good WRT bug fixing, and
how to write a good report) in the default browser home pages would go a
lot further toward educating users and improving bug reports than
anything else. A reportbug-ng quicklaunch icon by default on all of the
desktop environments may be useful as well.

Best wishes,
Mike


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/20100726112350.65da7d58.michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Marc Haber]

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:13:29 +0200, Raphael Hertzog
hert...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010, Teemu Likonen wrote:
 * 2010-07-25 12:54 (+0200), Marc Haber wrote:
 
  stable = release
  testing = current
  unstable = development
 
 I like these. They describe the three distributions well and current
 might encourage more users than testing. Advertising constantly
 usable and trendy rolling release would surely help.

+1

I would not introduce release but just keep stable, it describes the
distribution well.

I thought about that, but to me it is not clear whether stable 
current or stable  current. That relationship is easier with release
 current, and release explains well why that distribution only moves
twice a year.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1odq6o-00051u...@swivel.zugschlus.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Marc Haber]

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:32:49 -0400, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.
Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
they first install, so allowing to use some kind of HTTP interface
would be very nice indeed.

This will decrease the quality of bugs even more since the bug reports
are not going to contain even the minimum of information collected by
reportbug.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1odq0b-0004mg...@swivel.zugschlus.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Russell Gadd]

I spotted this topic in Debian Project News. I am a non-technical Debian
user (Lenny AMD 64 bit)   - I have tried Ubuntu a couple of times but came
back to Debian because of its stability. The main problem I have is lack of
up to date Flash in the browser (Iceweasel) and I think this is a common
problem with other users. I have to resort to using  Microsoft Windows
sometimes as Flash is being used more and more by websites. Maybe it's a
Linux problem not just Debian - I don't know, but it is frustrating.

Anything you could do to resolve this would be very welcome.

I hope this email is of some help to you, but you do not need to acknowledge
or reply to this email. Please accept my thanks to you and your colleagues
for all the tremendous work you do for the Debian community.

Russell Gadd

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Kumar Appaiah]

(CCing OP, assuming he isn't subscribed)

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 05:05:19PM +0100, Russell Gadd wrote:
 I spotted this topic in Debian Project News. I am a non-technical Debian
 user (Lenny AMD 64 bit)   - I have tried Ubuntu a couple of times but came
 back to Debian because of its stability. The main problem I have is lack of
 up to date Flash in the browser (Iceweasel) and I think this is a common
 problem with other users. I have to resort to using  Microsoft Windows
 sometimes as Flash is being used more and more by websites. Maybe it's a
 Linux problem not just Debian - I don't know, but it is frustrating.
 
 Anything you could do to resolve this would be very welcome.

The sad part is that Flash, at least the original one from Adobe, is
proprietary and closed source software, and official updates and fixes
happen at the will of the company; and with most other proprietary
software, stepmotherly treatment for Linux is the norm when it comes
to updates, whether it is for features or fixes. Unless and until a free 
version
of Flash comes out/one of the existing ones become much more usable,
it is unlikely that this situation will change.

 I hope this email is of some help to you, but you do not need to acknowledge
 or reply to this email. Please accept my thanks to you and your colleagues
 for all the tremendous work you do for the Debian community.

Thank you. Good user feedback, bug reports and participation in the
community helps Debian a lot as well.

Kumar


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100726163028.ge13...@bowser.ece.utexas.edu

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Michael Gilbert]

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:05:19 +0100, Russell Gadd wrote:
 I spotted this topic in Debian Project News. I am a non-technical Debian
 user (Lenny AMD 64 bit)   - I have tried Ubuntu a couple of times but came
 back to Debian because of its stability. The main problem I have is lack of
 up to date Flash in the browser (Iceweasel) and I think this is a common
 problem with other users. I have to resort to using  Microsoft Windows
 sometimes as Flash is being used more and more by websites. Maybe it's a
 Linux problem not just Debian - I don't know, but it is frustrating.

This is a bit off-topic for debian-devel, and should probably be posted
as a question to debian-u...@lists.debian.org.  Please send replies
there.

Up-to-date flash support is provided by the flashplugin-nonfree package
available from Debian's unofficial backports.org [0].  There is no
gnash backport available, but that would be something nice to have
if someone were interested in that (each backport needs an interested
maintainer).

Best wishes,
Mike

[0] http://backports.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=instructions


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/20100726123116.0aea9dd8.michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Roger Leigh]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 12:49:00PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
 Brian May writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: 
 The number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
  I would really like to see a HTML/HTTP browser based interface for the
  BTS. I would have several advantages:
 
 I would strongly resist any such suggestion, for the reasons I have
 already explained.
 
 In summary: We don't have a lack of bug reports, we have a lack of
 developer time.  Increasing the number of bug reports will take away
 developer time for triage, for no benefit.
 
 Simply, we do not need to, and should not, make reporting bugs easier.

An HTTP interface for /manipulating/ (not necessarily submitting)
bugs would be a huge timesaver for me at least.  If I'm working
through the list of bugs in a package and setting tags, for example,
sending mail after mail to cont...@bugs (or even using bts) is
an inefficient use of my time.  Simply ticking a tag and submitting
the changes á la bugzilla is much quicker and with instant feedback
(I don't need to check all the mail replies to make sure the
operation succeeded, and I don't need to carefully compose a
mail with the correct syntax or spend time copying and pasting bug
numbers and other details onto the command line).  The same applies
to other common BTS operations.

While it's very useful to do all BTS operations by mail, mail is
not the be-all and end-all of BTS interaction.  I do find I spend
most of my time browsing bugs using the web interface, and being
able to submit changes (and even attach patches and comments)
would save me a lot of time, which translates to being able to do
more Debian work in the time I have available.


Regards,
Roger

-- 
  .''`.  Roger Leigh
 : :' :  Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
 `. `'   Printing on GNU/Linux?   http://gutenprint.sourceforge.net/
   `-GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848   Please GPG sign your mail.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Bastian Venthur]

Am 26.07.2010 17:21, schrieb Paul Wise:
 On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Bastian Venthur vent...@debian.org wrote:
 
 Yep, that's correct. I wish xdg-email would work as expected but it does
 not so I have to take care of each and every quirk of a MUA if it wants
 to be used by reportbug-ng.
 
 Shouldn't those quirks be moved into xdg-email?

Maybe, but xdg-email does not quite work the way I expected. Xdg-email
tries to detect the desktop environment and calls the relevant helper.
In case of KDE4 it just calls /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/kmailservice with a
mailto-URL and hopes that kmailservice does the right thing.
Unfortunately kmailservice is very buggy, resulting in terribly
formatted mails and even omitted parts (like subject or to-field).


Cheers,

Bastian

-- 
Bastian Venthur  http://venthur.de
Debian Developer venthur at debian org



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/i2kegp$cu...@dough.gmane.org

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 05:47:53PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote:
 An HTTP interface for /manipulating/ (not necessarily submitting) bugs
 would be a huge timesaver for me at least.

Preliminary code for that has been around for a while now:
https://alioth.debian.org/projects/bts-webui/. It's even possible that
Marga still has a running instance somewhere, although I'm not sure
about that.

If you or anyone else is interested in the topic, you might want to join
the project and push for an actual deployment.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[JPenny]

Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de wrote on 07/26/2010 12:00:28 PM:

 Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de 
 07/26/2010 12:00 PM
 
 To
 
 debian-devel@lists.debian.org
 
 cc
 
 Subject
 
 Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The 
 number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling
 
 On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:13:29 +0200, Raphael Hertzog
 hert...@debian.org wrote:
 On Sun, 25 Jul 2010, Teemu Likonen wrote:
  * 2010-07-25 12:54 (+0200), Marc Haber wrote:
  
   stable = release
   testing = current
   unstable = development
  
  I like these. They describe the three distributions well and 
current
  might encourage more users than testing. Advertising constantly
  usable and trendy rolling release would surely help.
 
 +1
 
 I would not introduce release but just keep stable, it describes 
the
 distribution well.
 
 I thought about that, but to me it is not clear whether stable 
 current or stable  current. That relationship is easier with release
  current, and release explains well why that distribution only moves
 twice a year.

How about 
conservative  -- stable
edgy  -- testing
high-risk  -- unstable
?

 
 Greetings
 Marc
 -- 
 -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! 
-
 Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im 
Header
 Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | 
http://www.zugschlus.de/
 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 
72739834
 
 
 -- 
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact 
listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1odq6o-00051u...@swivel.zugschlus.de
 

Re: Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Magnus Berg]

Why is it neccecary to show mail adresses in bug reports and mail list?
This help spammers, take capacity from the internet and makes people who
are friendly to contribute once to bug reports and mail list crasy. I
think that sucks and I don't help you with sending any bug reports
because of that.

Magnus Berg


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4dbade.8050...@burgsvik.se

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Don Armstrong]

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, Magnus Berg wrote:
 I think that sucks and I don't help you with sending any bug reports
 because of that.

See http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=63995


Don Armstrong

-- 
I shall require that [a scientific system's] logical form shall be
such that it can be singled out, by means of emperical tests, in a
negative sense: it must be possible for an emperical scientific system
to be refuted by experience.
 -- Sir Karl Popper _Logic of Scientific Discovery_ §6

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100726173509.ga19...@teltox.donarmstrong.com

Email addresses on web pages, was: Re: Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[brian m. carlson]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 06:42:06PM +0200, Magnus Berg wrote:
 Why is it neccecary to show mail adresses in bug reports and mail list?
 This help spammers, take capacity from the internet and makes people who
 are friendly to contribute once to bug reports and mail list crasy. I
 think that sucks and I don't help you with sending any bug reports
 because of that.

As a bug triager, I often send mail to people listed in the bug list and
therefore their addresses need to be displayed.  Either way, the same
information is accessible in the mbox files in the bug log, so there's
no point in obscuring it in the BTS web pages.

As for the mailing lists, all the spammers have to do is subscribe to
the list to get all the email addresses.  Also, since our mailing lists
are replicated at many different sites, obscuring email addresses in our
archives is completely ineffective.

Also, to head off the suggestion that we turn email addresses into
images: blind people or people with low vision should be able to use the
BTS, too.

-- 
brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US
+1 832 623 2791 | http://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only
OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b: 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Andrei Popescu]

On Lu, 26 iul 10, 18:42:06, Magnus Berg wrote:
 Why is it neccecary to show mail adresses in bug reports and mail list?
 This help spammers, take capacity from the internet and makes people who
 are friendly to contribute once to bug reports and mail list crasy. I
 think that sucks and I don't help you with sending any bug reports
 because of that.

http://www.interhack.net/pubs/munging-harmful/

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Hans-J. Ullrich]

Am Montag, 26. Juli 2010 schrieb Teemu Likonen:
 * 2010-07-26 08:13 (+0200), Raphael Hertzog wrote:
  * 2010-07-25 12:54 (+0200), Marc Haber wrote:
  stable = release
  testing = current
  unstable = development
Yeah, I like it, too. This is better than the suggetion, with that I  
initiated this conversation.

Thumbs up!

Hans


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201007261943.52540.hans.ullr...@loop.de

Re: Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Magnus Berg]

 Magnus Berg wrote:
  I think that sucks and I don't help you with sending any bug reports
  because of that.

 See http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=63995


 Don Armstrong

And you wonder: How to make Debian more attractive for users. :-)

First thing: Average Linux user may not be very interested in spam hunting.
Second thing: If you intend to be attractive for the average Linux user - 
Ubuntu users for instance - keep in mind that most users want a user friendly, 
easy to use distro, with helpful and understanding crew. If you intend to keep 
on working with computer nerds in mind you will never be attractive for the 
average Linux user.

You chose

Magnus Berg



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4dd1cd.3070...@burgsvik.se

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Andres Mejia]

On Monday 26 July 2010 11:54:29 Marc Haber wrote:
 On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:32:49 -0400, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.
 Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
 they first install, so allowing to use some kind of HTTP interface
 would be very nice indeed.
 
 This will decrease the quality of bugs even more since the bug reports
 are not going to contain even the minimum of information collected by
 reportbug.
 
 Greetings
 Marc

Here's a template reportbug prints out for iceweasel.

Subject: none

Package: iceweasel
Version: 3.6.3-1
Severity: wishlist



-- Package-specific info:

-- Extensions information
Name: Default
Location: /usr/lib/iceweasel/extensions/{972ce4c6-7e08-4474-a285-3208198ce6fd}
Package: iceweasel
Status: enabled

-- Plugins information
Name: IcedTea NPR Web Browser Plugin (using IcedTea6 1.8 (6b18-1.8-4))
Location: /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/amd64/IcedTeaPlugin.so
Package: icedtea6-plugin
Status: enabled

Name: Shockwave Flash
Location: /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree/libflashplayer.so
Status: enabled

Name: Silverlight Plug-In
Location: /usr/lib/moon/plugin/libmoonloader.so
Package: moonlight-plugin-core
Status: enabled

Name: Skype Buttons for Kopete
Location: /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/skypebuttons.so
Package: kopete
Status: enabled

Name: VLC Multimedia Plug-in
Location: /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libvlcplugin.so
Package: mozilla-plugin-vlc
Status: enabled


-- Addons package information
ii  icedtea6-plugi 6b18-1.8-4 web browser plugin based on OpenJDK and Iced
ii  iceweasel  3.6.3-1Web browser based on Firefox
ii  kopete 4:4.4.5-1  instant messaging and chat application
ii  moonlight-plug 1.0.1-3+b1 Free Software clone of Silverlight 1.0 - plu
ii  mozilla-plugin 1.1.1-1multimedia plugin for web browsers based on 

-- System Information:
Debian Release: squeeze/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.32-5-amd64 (SMP w/8 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash

Versions of packages iceweasel depends on:
ii  debianutils   3.4Miscellaneous utilities specific t
ii  fontconfig2.8.0-2.1  generic font configuration library
ii  libc6 2.11.2-2   Embedded GNU C Library: Shared 
lib
ii  libglib2.0-0  2.24.1-1   The GLib library of C routines
ii  libgtk2.0-0   2.20.1-1   The GTK+ graphical user interface 
ii  libnspr4-0d   4.8.4-2NetScape Portable Runtime Library
ii  libstdc++64.4.4-7The GNU Standard C++ Library v3
ii  procps1:3.2.8-9  /proc file system utilities
ii  psmisc22.12-1utilities that use the proc file s
ii  xulrunner-1.9.2   1.9.2.3-2  XUL + XPCOM application runner

iceweasel recommends no packages.

Versions of packages iceweasel suggests:
ii  libgssapi-krb5-21.8.1+dfsg-5 MIT Kerberos runtime libraries - 
k
pn  mozplugger  none   (no description available)
ii  ttf-lyx 1.6.7-1  TrueType versions of some TeX 
font
pn  ttf-mathematica4.1  none   (no description available)
ii  xfonts-mathml   4Type1 Symbol font for MathML
pn  xprint  none   (no description available)

Versions of packages xulrunner-1.9.2 depends on:
ii  libasound2  1.0.23-1 shared library for ALSA 
applicatio
ii  libatk1.0-0 1.30.0-1 The ATK accessibility toolkit
ii  libbz2-1.0  1.0.5-4  high-quality block-sorting file co
ii  libc6   2.11.2-2 Embedded GNU C Library: Shared 
lib
ii  libcairo2   1.9.6-6  The Cairo 2D vector graphics 
libra
ii  libdbus-1-3 1.2.24-2 simple interprocess messaging 
syst
ii  libffi5 3.0.9-2  Foreign Function Interface library
ii  libfontconfig1  2.8.0-2.1generic font configuration library
ii  libfreetype62.4.0-2  FreeType 2 font engine, shared 
lib
ii  libgcc1 1:4.4.4-7GCC support library
ii  libglib2.0-02.24.1-1 The GLib library of C routines
ii  libgtk2.0-0 2.20.1-1 The GTK+ graphical user interface 
ii  libhunspell-1.2-0   1.2.11-1 spell checker and morphological 
an
ii  libjpeg62   6b1-1The Independent JPEG Group's JPEG 
ii  libmozjs3d  1.9.2.3-2The Mozilla SpiderMonkey 
JavaScrip
ii  libnspr4-0d 4.8.4-2  NetScape Portable Runtime Library
ii  libnss3-1d  3.12.6-3 Network Security Service 
libraries
ii  libpango1.0-0   1.28.1-1 

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Simon Paillard]

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:24:43PM +0100, Nicholas Bamber wrote:
 Paul Wise wrote:
 On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Nicholas Bamber nicho...@periapt.co.uk 
 wrote:
 I reckon a forum would be much easier to finance (even with moderators) than
 a phone line. It could probably be integrated with one of the mailing lists
 which would go a long way to make it look friendlier.
 
 forums.debian.net has existed for years.

 Okay so that's what I learnt in school today. Could we have a link
 to it on the from page? There is room in that red menu bar. Actually
 I tried to look for it under support and various other places, but
 I could not find it.

http://www.debian.org/support#web

-- 
Simon Paillard


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100726190912.gc13...@dedibox.ebzao.info

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Russell Gadd]

On 26 July 2010 17:31, Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:05:19 +0100, Russell Gadd wrote:
  I spotted this topic in Debian Project News. I am a non-technical Debian
  user (Lenny AMD 64 bit)   - I have tried Ubuntu a couple of times but
 came
  back to Debian because of its stability. The main problem I have is lack
 of
  up to date Flash in the browser (Iceweasel) and I think this is a common
  problem with other users. I have to resort to using  Microsoft Windows
  sometimes as Flash is being used more and more by websites. Maybe it's a
  Linux problem not just Debian - I don't know, but it is frustrating.

 This is a bit off-topic for debian-devel, and should probably be posted
 as a question to debian-u...@lists.debian.org.  Please send replies
 there.

 Up-to-date flash support is provided by the flashplugin-nonfree package
 available from Debian's unofficial backports.org [0].  There is no
 gnash backport available, but that would be something nice to have
 if someone were interested in that (each backport needs an interested
 maintainer).

 Best wishes,
 Mike

 [0] http://backports.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=instructions


Thanks for the info Mike
Russell

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Don Armstrong]

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, Magnus Berg wrote:
  Magnus Berg wrote:
   I think that sucks and I don't help you with sending any bug reports
   because of that.
 
  See http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=63995

 And you wonder: How to make Debian more attractive for users. :-)
 
 First thing: Average Linux user may not be very interested in spam
 hunting.

That's fine; there are numerous e-mail providers which handle the spam
problem for you.

 Second thing: If you intend to be attractive for the average Linux
 user - Ubuntu users for instance - keep in mind that most users want
 a user friendly, easy to use distro, with helpful and understanding
 crew. If you intend to keep on working with computer nerds in mind
 you will never be attractive for the average Linux user.

While I have no problem with changes to make Debian and reporting bugs
more attractive and useful for new users, I will not make changes that
make the BTS more difficult to use for the people who are already
using it and doing the work. Obscuring bug reporters makes it much
more difficult for people to contact bug reporters and other
interested parties for very little gain. [After all, my e-mail address
is on (almost) every single page that the BTS generates...]


Don Armstrong

-- 
S: Make me a sandwich
B: What? Make it yourself.
S: sudo make me a sandwich
B: Okay.
 -- xkcd http://xkcd.com/c149.html

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100726192420.gb19...@teltox.donarmstrong.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Russ Allbery]

Magnus Berg debianjunkm...@burgsvik.se writes:

 And you wonder: How to make Debian more attractive for users. :-)

 First thing: Average Linux user may not be very interested in spam
 hunting.  Second thing: If you intend to be attractive for the average
 Linux user - Ubuntu users for instance - keep in mind that most users
 want a user friendly, easy to use distro, with helpful and understanding
 crew. If you intend to keep on working with computer nerds in mind you
 will never be attractive for the average Linux user.

A bug report is a conversation.  If the user doesn't want to be
contactable, I would strongly prefer they not file a bug report at all,
since frequently I won't be able to do anything about it without having
that conversation.

 You chose

I tend towards Ian's position on this.  I don't think enabling more,
lower-quality, unrepliable bug reports is going to make Debian any better
or any more user-friendly than it is now.  I have plenty of high-quality
bug reports from contactable people to work on already.

I think you're chasing the wrong problem.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87vd82xbck@windlord.stanford.edu

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Jesús M. Navarro]

Hi, Ian:

On Monday 26 July 2010 13:49:00 Ian Jackson wrote:
 Brian May writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: 
Re: The number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
  I would really like to see a HTML/HTTP browser based interface for the
  BTS. I would have several advantages:

 I would strongly resist any such suggestion, for the reasons I have
 already explained.

 In summary: We don't have a lack of bug reports, we have a lack of
 developer time.  Increasing the number of bug reports will take away
 developer time for triage, for no benefit.

 Simply, we do not need to, and should not, make reporting bugs easier.

I would say bug reports should be always welcome.  The easier to fill bug 
reports, the better.

Good quality bug reports, I mean.

Then the problem would be not how many bug reports Debian gets but what's its 
quality and how it can be made better.

But still the premise holds: the easier to fill bug reports, the better.  If 
more bug reports is a problem then it can be only because the quality of 
them, not their quantity.  If you fill there are too many bug reports I'd say 
that's because their quality is not as good as desired so the problem is how 
to increase the bug report quality not to make difficult to fill more of 
them.

Cheers.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201007270315.26900.jesus.nava...@undominio.net

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Jesús M. Navarro]

Hi Marc:

On Monday 26 July 2010 17:54:29 Marc Haber wrote:
 On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:32:49 -0400, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.
 Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
 they first install, so allowing to use some kind of HTTP interface
 would be very nice indeed.

 This will decrease the quality of bugs even more since the bug reports
 are not going to contain even the minimum of information collected by
 reportbug.

Filling a bug report by HTTP doesn't absolutly mean information must be lost, 
does it?

Cheers.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201007270317.08118.jesus.nava...@undominio.net

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Will]

6, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de wrote:
 On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:32:49 -0400, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.
Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
they first install, so allowing to use some kind of HTTP interface
would be very nice indeed.

 This will decrease the quality of bugs even more since the bug reports
 are not going to contain even the minimum of information collected by
 reportbug.

 Greetings
 Marc
 --
 -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
 Marc Haber         |    Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
 Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom      | http://www.zugschlus.de/
 Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834


 --
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1odq0b-0004mg...@swivel.zugschlus.de



I said HTTP interface. I did not say web interface. I have not
commented on making a web frontend to the BTS. I was suggesting using
HTTP as an alternative transport mechanism since it would require less
configuration on the user's part. Any GUI bug reporter/reportbug could
transmit information to the BTS via HTTP, and it would be easy to slap
a web frontend on top of that if people so desired. It would
definitely easier than building one off of the SMTP interface we have
currently.

-- 
-Will Orr


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=d+a84mwncvukjfl6fkxbagw8bvvup8dp+-...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Fernando Lemos]

2010/7/26 Jesús M. Navarro jesus.nava...@undominio.net:
 Hi, Ian:

 On Monday 26 July 2010 13:49:00 Ian Jackson wrote:
 Brian May writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was:
 Re: The number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
  I would really like to see a HTML/HTTP browser based interface for the
  BTS. I would have several advantages:

 I would strongly resist any such suggestion, for the reasons I have
 already explained.

 In summary: We don't have a lack of bug reports, we have a lack of
 developer time.  Increasing the number of bug reports will take away
 developer time for triage, for no benefit.

 Simply, we do not need to, and should not, make reporting bugs easier.

 I would say bug reports should be always welcome.  The easier to fill bug
 reports, the better.

How many BTS reports have you closed?

I don't mean to sound offensive here, but this thread is fruitless.
All I see is people talking and talking over something they have no
say in.

This is free software. If you want to get your idea implemented,
either file a bug report and patiently wait (and leave debian-devel
alone) or implement it yourself. Talk is cheap.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=qbc20s5o26ue+rjjt9ow-dwwsrybbrk=sq...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Brian May]

On 26 July 2010 21:49, Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk wrote:
 Brian May writes (Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: 
 The number  of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling):
 I would really like to see a HTML/HTTP browser based interface for the
 BTS. I would have several advantages:

 I would strongly resist any such suggestion, for the reasons I have
 already explained.

 In summary: We don't have a lack of bug reports, we have a lack of
 developer time.  Increasing the number of bug reports will take away
 developer time for triage, for no benefit.

My proposal would save developers time in managing bug reports. I have
lost track of how much time I have wasted because I made a mistake in
an email to cont...@bugs.debian.org, only to have to try and fix up
the mess through the same interface. This time wasted would have been
better spent on fixing problems with my package.
-- 
Brian May br...@microcomaustralia.com.au


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinta_wmvv0zch2zjb24xsefdgwwgxoxkchxj...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Arief M Utama]

Le 26/07/2010 10:26, Arief M Utama a écrit :


Olivier,

If you need any help, I'd like to help creating the web-interface. I 
have some years of experience in php.



All the best.
-arief



Thanks but it's Perl only :(


Ahh.. :-(
No possibilities to implement the interface in php while leaving the 
rest in perl?



And of course everybody know that PHP stand for People Hate Perl ;)


:-)

I dont hate perl. I just cant read most of it, yet ;-)


So not sure I can help.


Well, better luck next time.


All the best.
-arief


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4e5580.2000...@gmail.com

Re: Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Josselin Mouette]

Le lundi 26 juillet 2010 à 20:19 +0200, Magnus Berg a écrit :
 And you wonder: How to make Debian more attractive for users. :-)
 
 First thing: Average Linux user may not be very interested in spam
 hunting.
 Second thing: If you intend to be attractive for the average Linux
 user - Ubuntu users for instance - keep in mind that most users want a
 user friendly, easy to use distro, with helpful and understanding
 crew. If you intend to keep on working with computer nerds in mind you
 will never be attractive for the average Linux user.

We want the distribution to be friendly and easy to use by anyone.

We want to receive bug reports only from computer nerds since they are
the ones who write useful reports.

How are those two statements incompatible?

-- 
 .''`.  Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'  “If you behave this way because you are blackmailed by someone,
  `-[…] I will see what I can do for you.”  -- Jörg Schilling


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Marc Haber]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:02:52 +0200, Lucas Nussbaum
lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net wrote:
On 22/07/10 at 14:22 +1000, Russell Coker wrote:
 On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Lucas Nussbaum lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net wrote:
   That's an interesting idea.  But where is the money going to come from?
  
  This idea is likely to get so much people against it that it's not worth
  discussing.
 
 Involvement of Debian funds would cause problems, but there are other 
 options.
 
 We could have Debian maintain a list of consultants and companies that 
 provide 
 phone and Jabber support.  Also a mapping of consultants to areas of 
 expertise 
 would be good (EG if someone happens to need some paid expert advice on 
 Debian 
 SE Linux ;).

We currently have 827 consultants in 64 countries listed on
http://www.debian.org/consultants/, which is pretty easy to find. It's
true that this listing could be improved, but still, it's there (also,
you are not listed).

It is also grossly ineffective. My company is listed there since 2004
and has received like three incoming questions and not a single buck
of revenue via this medium.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1ocxt4-0001ow...@swivel.zugschlus.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Marc Haber]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:08:28 +0200, Bastien ROUCARIES
roucaries.bast...@gmail.com wrote:
For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe
simpler user,

What's so hard about typing reportbug?

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1ocxtg-0001og...@swivel.zugschlus.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Mikhail Gusarov]

Twas brillig at 11:53:28 25.07.2010 UTC+02 when mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de 
did gyre and gimble:

 For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe simpler
 user,

 MH What's so hard about typing reportbug?

Lack of distributed global hypnoeducation which pre-fills users' minds with 
this information.

-- 
  http://fossarchy.blogspot.com/


pgpRpXhzrOS9I.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Marc Haber]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:37:41 +0100, Fuentes, Adolfo
a.fuen...@liverpool.ac.uk wrote:
Well, then the problem I think is that people don't get to know what we all 
already know: That Debian is perhaps the best distro (in general terms). As 
Paul Wise commented, we need more promotion and more people creating 
screenshots. At least this would be the easiest and cheapest way to start with 
helping users discover these features.

I have never understood the reason why a screenshot may be relevant to
show what a distribution can do. I am prett sure that my Debian system
(even the desktops) don't remotely resemble what such a screenshot
would show.

Please use reasonable line lengths and do not top post.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1ocyik-0002js...@swivel.zugschlus.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Marc Haber]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:46:22 +0200, Hans-J. Ullrich
hans.ullr...@loop.de wrote:
I suggest for this, to thinlk about other names, for example 

- stable = server

- testing = desktop

- unstable = super_modern

stable = release
testing = current
unstable = development

(kind of copied from FreeBSD).

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1ocyrc-0002rj...@swivel.zugschlus.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Olivier Bonvalet]

Le 25/07/2010 11:53, Marc Haber a écrit :

On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:08:28 +0200, Bastien ROUCARIES
roucaries.bast...@gmail.com  wrote:
   

For isntance the bug sytem could be made simplier for joe
simpler user,
 

What's so hard about typing reportbug?

Greetings
Marc
   


It's dependent of a (good) local MTA configuration, or use of a distant 
SMTP server on which we have to remember login and password.
I would like have an alternative and independent protocol (thought HTTP 
for example), when we can't easily use MTA/SMTP.


Olivier


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4c1b7c.6020...@daevel.fr

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Stanislav Maslovski]

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 05:39:19PM +0200, Benjamin Drung wrote:
 Am Donnerstag, den 22.07.2010, 23:14 +0800 schrieb Paul Wise:
  On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Giacomo A. Catenazzi c...@debian.org 
  wrote:
 Debian contributors don't have to be Debian users at the beginning. They
 can come from Debian-derived distributions and contribute directly to
 Debian to avoid work duplication.

Sure. First they sell their souls to a daemon and then seek for an
indulgence.

Just kidding.

-- 
Stanislav


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100725114242.ga4...@kaiba.homelan

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Marc Haber]

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:09:48 +0200, Olivier Bonvalet
debian.l...@daevel.fr wrote:
I would like have an alternative and independent protocol (thought HTTP 
for example), when we can't easily use MTA/SMTP.

Agreed, but HTTP is not the ultimative help. See corporate networks
with a non-transparent proxy which is configured centrally into the
windows boxes, so that users might not readily know that there is one.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1od16k-0006gp...@swivel.zugschlus.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Olivier Bonvalet]

Le 25/07/2010 15:19, Marc Haber a écrit :

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:09:48 +0200, Olivier Bonvalet
debian.l...@daevel.fr  wrote:
   

I would like have an alternative and independent protocol (thought HTTP
for example), when we can't easily use MTA/SMTP.
 

Agreed, but HTTP is not the ultimative help. See corporate networks
with a non-transparent proxy which is configured centrally into the
windows boxes, so that users might not readily know that there is one.

Greetings
Marc
   


HTTP was just an example. But like said on the thread teaching users 
how to submit good bug reports we can support proxies too, and there 
always be setups we will not have any remote access, it's not a reason 
to do not do anything to help those who can't easily use SMTP. Nowadays, 
require SMTP doesn't seem judicious.


Olivier


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4c3c6a.8040...@daevel.fr

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Will]

 stable = release
 testing = current
 unstable = development

 (kind of copied from FreeBSD).

This.

Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.
Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
they first install, so allowing to use some kind of HTTP interface
would be very nice indeed.

Where I go to school, there are a lot of people who try Linux for the
first time hearing that it's a nice dev environment. They understand
software bugs, know what information to provide, and aren't always
afraid to delve into source code. But a lot of the time, they just
don't wanna be bothered to set up exim.


-- 
-Will Orr


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=sgzgq3o5kzy1hfajeihuwlx8mkndpk82j8...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2010-07-25 12:54 (+0200), Marc Haber wrote:

 stable = release
 testing = current
 unstable = development

I like these. They describe the three distributions well and current
might encourage more users than testing. Advertising constantly
usable and trendy rolling release would surely help.


-- 
Feel free to Cc me your replies if you want to make sure I'll notice
them. I can't read all the list mail.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87zkxfjuld@mithlond.arda

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Sandro Tosi]

Hello,

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 19:32, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.

are you (and all the others asking for this) willing to help developing one?

 Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
 they first install,

Could you please point to any reference where it's written that the
only way for reportbug to work it's thru a local MTA and not also with
a remote SMTP server?

Regards,
-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinxgxvmlarjaosfenndyi+f7swrxuhvwda=h...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Olivier Bonvalet]

Le 26/07/2010 00:07, Sandro Tosi a écrit :

Hello,

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 19:32, Willay1...@gmail.com  wrote:
   

Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.
 

are you (and all the others asking for this) willing to help developing one?
   


As a PHP developper, I can help if needed, yes.


Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
they first install,
 

Could you please point to any reference where it's written that the
only way for reportbug to work it's thru a local MTA and not also with
a remote SMTP server?
   


You can use remote SMTP server too, but it's not really easy too : you 
have to setup service host and login each time you install reportbug on 
a server, and remember the password (password often choosen by your FAI) 
each time you will use reportbug.


Olivier


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4cb6cf.9000...@daevel.fr

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 11:52:50AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
 On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:02:52 +0200, Lucas Nussbaum
 lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net wrote:
 On 22/07/10 at 14:22 +1000, Russell Coker wrote:
  On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Lucas Nussbaum lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net wrote:
That's an interesting idea.  But where is the money going to come from?
   
   This idea is likely to get so much people against it that it's not worth
   discussing.
  
  Involvement of Debian funds would cause problems, but there are other 
  options.
  
  We could have Debian maintain a list of consultants and companies that 
  provide 
  phone and Jabber support.  Also a mapping of consultants to areas of 
  expertise 
  would be good (EG if someone happens to need some paid expert advice on 
  Debian 
  SE Linux ;).
 
 We currently have 827 consultants in 64 countries listed on
 http://www.debian.org/consultants/, which is pretty easy to find. It's
 true that this listing could be improved, but still, it's there (also,
 you are not listed).
 
 It is also grossly ineffective. My company is listed there since 2004
 and has received like three incoming questions and not a single buck
 of revenue via this medium.

Mine has been listed since it was incorporated (about a year more than
yours, apparently) and has received two or three inquiries and one
customer.

That's actually even better than the amount of inquiries we've received
through the phone book, FWIW.

But, hey, YMMV.

-- 
The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters
works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is
trying to fool the system.
  http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100725223157.ga3...@celtic.nixsys.be

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Sandro Tosi]

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 00:12, Olivier Bonvalet debian.l...@daevel.fr wrote:
 Le 26/07/2010 00:07, Sandro Tosi a écrit :

 Hello,

 On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 19:32, Willay1...@gmail.com  wrote:


 Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.


 are you (and all the others asking for this) willing to help developing
 one?


 As a PHP developper, I can help if needed, yes.

That's great! so I suggest to contact ow...@bugs.debian.org and ask
what kind of support you can give. And the same applies to everyone
else that wants a web bug reporting interface: step up and give help!
that's the fastest way to achieve anything in the floss world :)

 Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
 they first install,


 Could you please point to any reference where it's written that the
 only way for reportbug to work it's thru a local MTA and not also with
 a remote SMTP server?


 You can use remote SMTP server too, but it's not really easy too : you have
 to setup service host and login each time you install reportbug on a server,

is copying (or configure) a file, /etc/reportbug.conf, a problem when
creating a new server, that's not done so often and usually requires a
huge amount of other steps?

 and remember the password (password often choosen by your FAI) each time you
 will use reportbug.

then set the right permission on the config file and use smtppasswd
(man reportbug.conf for more info). You can also save the output from
reportbug on a file and send the report from another machine.

Regards,
-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktin6wss=5q7dkw-idqecqss=jfjpctikxdgqm...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Will]

5, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Sandro Tosi mo...@debian.org wrote:
 Hello,

 On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 19:32, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.

 are you (and all the others asking for this) willing to help developing one?

 Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
 they first install,

Yes, as a Python developer I'd be glad to add in HTTP support given an
HTTP interface to the BTS.

 Could you please point to any reference where it's written that the
 only way for reportbug to work it's thru a local MTA and not also with
 a remote SMTP server?

It's not, I was working off old information. When I used reportbug a
few years ago, just SMTP was broken, so I just set up an MTA and
forgot about it. Sorry.

 Regards,
 --
 Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
 My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
 Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


 --
 To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
 with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
 Archive: 
 http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinxgxvmlarjaosfenndyi+f7swrxuhvwda=h...@mail.gmail.com





-- 
-Will Orr


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikg4pt8uyrz=uoxaxrpqrc1jrrhdc-p_fzxo...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Sandro Tosi]

hi,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 00:22, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
 5, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Sandro Tosi mo...@debian.org wrote:
 Hello,

 On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 19:32, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.

 are you (and all the others asking for this) willing to help developing one?

 Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
 they first install,

 Yes, as a Python developer I'd be glad to add in HTTP support given an
 HTTP interface to the BTS.

That's great! given it might take a while to the BTS owner to think
about a proper way to implement that in the current architecture, I'd
suggest to give a look to the small list of bugs against reportbug
and propose some solutions or patches: I'd be happy to review and
ultimately incorporate any valuable work!

 Could you please point to any reference where it's written that the
 only way for reportbug to work it's thru a local MTA and not also with
 a remote SMTP server?

 It's not, I was working off old information. When I used reportbug a
 few years ago, just SMTP was broken, so I just set up an MTA and
 forgot about it. Sorry.

Good, at least we don't have any (known) outdated documentation to fix :)

Regards,
-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktimjdcb8dmimjm+=i3i_fq4qdxlbkccca1bg0...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Olivier Bonvalet]

Le 26/07/2010 00:36, Sandro Tosi a écrit :

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 00:12, Olivier Bonvaletdebian.l...@daevel.fr  wrote:
   

Le 26/07/2010 00:07, Sandro Tosi a écrit :
 

Hello,

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 19:32, Willay1...@gmail.comwrote:

   

Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.

 

are you (and all the others asking for this) willing to help developing
one?

   

As a PHP developper, I can help if needed, yes.
 

That's great! so I suggest to contact ow...@bugs.debian.org and ask
what kind of support you can give. And the same applies to everyone
else that wants a web bug reporting interface: step up and give help!
that's the fastest way to achieve anything in the floss world :)

   


Ok, I will do that.


Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
they first install,

 

Could you please point to any reference where it's written that the
only way for reportbug to work it's thru a local MTA and not also with
a remote SMTP server?

   

You can use remote SMTP server too, but it's not really easy too : you have
to setup service host and login each time you install reportbug on a server,
 

is copying (or configure) a file, /etc/reportbug.conf, a problem when
creating a new server, that's not done so often and usually requires a
huge amount of other steps?
   


well, I have not installed all the Debian setups I use. If I can 
automate the reportbug installation, I can also automate the MTA 
installation (but it doesn't resolve the DKIM/SPF problem).



and remember the password (password often choosen by your FAI) each time you
will use reportbug.
 

then set the right permission on the config file and use smtppasswd
(man reportbug.conf for more info). You can also save the output from
reportbug on a file and send the report from another machine.
   


1) store smtppasswd in reportbug.conf : for sure, I will let my SMTP 
passwords in clear text everywhere.
2) store output in a file, read it, then copy/paste on my MUA : you call 
that user friendly ? ;)



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4cbf6d.10...@daevel.fr

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Sandro Tosi]

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 00:49, Olivier Bonvalet debian.l...@daevel.fr wrote:
 then set the right permission on the config file and use smtppasswd
 (man reportbug.conf for more info). You can also save the output from
 reportbug on a file and send the report from another machine.


 1) store smtppasswd in reportbug.conf : for sure, I will let my SMTP
 passwords in clear text everywhere.

you missed the part where I said then set the right permission on the
config file :) if you're not the only one (and so you could use the
~/.reportbugrc file with perms that *only* the user read it) reporting
bugs on that machine, then either you don't provide an email
capability for users on that server (f.e. a local MTA forwarding to
the real one) or any other users have to know that pwd.

 2) store output in a file, read it, then copy/paste on my MUA : you call
 that user friendly ? ;)

No, but it's a viable solution (and I heard several people are already
doing similar stuff).

Regards,
Sandro

PS: I don't know how much of this still belongs to d-devel (honestly,
very few of the discussions about reportbug arisen from this thread
does) and so you might probably want to move the conversation to
reportbug-ma...@lists.alioth.debian.org .

-- 
Sandro Tosi (aka morph, morpheus, matrixhasu)
My website: http://matrixhasu.altervista.org/
Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktin3gz2xvx_vrlit7o+pemzoja7uqcrvdtd3u...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Olivier Bonvalet]

Le 26/07/2010 01:01, Sandro Tosi a écrit :

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 00:49, Olivier Bonvaletdebian.l...@daevel.fr  wrote:
   

then set the right permission on the config file and use smtppasswd
(man reportbug.conf for more info). You can also save the output from
reportbug on a file and send the report from another machine.

   

1) store smtppasswd in reportbug.conf : for sure, I will let my SMTP
passwords in clear text everywhere.
 

you missed the part where I said then set the right permission on the
config file :) if you're not the only one (and so you could use the
~/.reportbugrc file with perms that *only* the user read it) reporting
bugs on that machine, then either you don't provide an email
capability for users on that server (f.e. a local MTA forwarding to
the real one) or any other users have to know that pwd.

   
No I didn't missed that part. But I'm not necessary root on that 
server (and I don't trust him), and I don't necessary have my own 
account on that server. So the unix grants are not of any help for me.



2) store output in a file, read it, then copy/paste on my MUA : you call
that user friendly ? ;)
 

No, but it's a viable solution (and I heard several people are already
doing similar stuff).

Regards,
Sandro

PS: I don't know how much of this still belongs to d-devel (honestly,
very few of the discussions about reportbug arisen from this thread
does) and so you might probably want to move the conversation to
reportbug-ma...@lists.alioth.debian.org .
   
I agree, and I already mailed ow...@bugs.debian.org to know if I can 
help for that. So I will continue discussion with them.


Olivier


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4cc3eb.5070...@daevel.fr

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Brian May]

On 26 July 2010 03:32, Will ay1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Additionally, an HTTP interface to reportbug would be a good idea.
 Many new users find it difficult or unnecessary to set up an MTA when
 they first install, so allowing to use some kind of HTTP interface
 would be very nice indeed.

I would really like to see a HTML/HTTP browser based interface for the
BTS. I would have several advantages:

* Practically everyone has a web browser that is set up and works.
Yes, some companies do filter HTTP requests due to paranoia - these
companies probably also block other ports too.

* A good setup would mean I can make changes to bug reports and get
instant feedback on what happened.

* Yes, the bts command in devscripts does help get these emails
correct, but there is still room to make mistakes, and with the
current setup you have to wait a long time to find out you got
something wrong. By this stage I have gone on to the next task, and
find it a big disruption.

* Can centrally maintain list of questions asked for given package.

* E-Mail only system makes the Debian BTS look arcade to outsiders,
even if it does have unique features that make it stand out from
alternatives (e.g. version tracking).


The one downside I see, is that it is going to be harder, especially
for new users, to give the detailed system information that apparently
can be helpful for some maintainers. So such a system is possibly can
never be a replacement for the traditional reportbug.

The last point (above) may seem cosmetic, however this is a discussion
on getting more Debian users, and may be an important reason people
avoid Debian.
-- 
Brian May br...@microcomaustralia.com.au


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktimducojcnhw278uo=xyajv=adcb2bgg67c3_...@mail.gmail.com

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Daniel Reurich]

  2) store output in a file, read it, then copy/paste on my MUA : you call
  that user friendly ? ;)
 
 No, but it's a viable solution (and I heard several people are already
 doing similar stuff).

you could improve this and have it call sensible-browser
mailto:u...@example.com?subject=bug\ Subject\body=bug\ report\ body.

This would automagically put the appropriate information directly into
the users default email client.

(It would be easier still if sensible-utils included a mail user agent as 
well,
then we could just call that.)  Alternatively we could ask the user what
mua they use (provide a list out of the installed mua's) - and use that.

 
-- 
Daniel Reurich.

Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd
Mobile 021 797 722





-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/1280112012.19481.413.ca...@localhost.localdomain

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Bernd Zeimetz]

On 07/22/2010 02:46 PM, Hans-J. Ullrich wrote:
 Hi all, 
 
 and there is another point, I would like to mention. 
 
 The naming of the repository is not well chosen, as it let new and 
 unexperienced people to debian feel a wrong way. The names stable testing 
 and unstable let the poeople think, debian is using crippled software, 
 which 
 is unstable, not well tested. In fact, even software from unstable is often 
 running better, than other (including closed source) software.
 
 I suggest for this, to thinlk about other names, for example 
 
 - stable = server
 
 - testing = desktop
 
 - unstable = super_modern

So all the OMGTHISISCOOL kids install unstable and have a messed up system
because there is something broken in unstable? Thats probably the worst example
for a renaming ever.

 
 Just an example. 
 
 Have fun!
 
 Hans-J. Ullrich
 
 Just an example
 
 


-- 
 Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79
   ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c4ad066.4020...@bzed.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[vishnu vardhan]

Hello DD's and Debian Users,

I have installed Debian around an year ago. Recently, I have subscribed to
various mailing lists and reading them on daily basis, whether they are
relevant to me or not. I am still learning about debian.

Prior to the installation of Debian, I don't have any experience with Linux
or any kind of Linux Distributions. I did some research and concluded that
Debian suits me well due to it's rock solid stability.

When I was first installing Debian, my room mate was also with me. My room
mate has some kind of exposure to linux distros. When the option has come
for installation of popularity-contest, he suggested me not to install it.
He told me that it will take you to places. Eventhough I never understood
what that phrase was meant. I have contacted some other people and they too
has same kind of impression.

The issue lies with a person's perception and privacy fears. The issue has
to be dealt in a careful manner and with a holistic approach.

This is my two step approach :

Step 1 : We should know a person's idea about the package.

Q1 : Did you install the popularity-contest package at the time of
installation ?
A  : Yes or No.

Q2 : Do you know the purpose and use of popularity-contest package ?
A  : Yes or No.

Q3 : What is a popularity-contest package ?
A  : O1 : It sends the installed packages list to the Debian server
anonymously.
 O2 : It collects the data about the system architecture anonmyously.
 O3 : It collects the information about your system hardware and
installed packages and
  distributes to various third party organisations for commercial
and non-commercial
  purposes.

Step 2 : The above step will give us a clear impression about the package
perception. If most of them think that package is

[1] invading the privacy : then we should dispel their fear. The popcon
website should provide more information and it should be more interactive
too. Like providing stats on weekly, monthly, quarterly and yearly basis for
each architecture.

[2] if they have right impression but did not installed the package : There
are two reasons for the answer : [a] they do not have an active internet
connection [b] they are not simply interested, since they find that it has
no value.

[a] We can have a package similar to bugreport and ask them to send an
e-mail. The user will know what they are disclosing exactly.

[b] Can be solved with more information and interactive popcon website.

The Step 1 can achieved by a detailed survey. The survey might be carried on
the website or wiki page of debian. We can also encourage debian users with
websites or blogs to carry out the surveys independently.

To me there is nothing wrong collecting information about system
architecture and installed packages, as long it is anonymous. I hope this
might be helpful for the community. Excuse for broken english.

vishnuvardhan.

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 01:53:22AM +0200, Jesús M. Navarro wrote:
 Hi again, Russ:

 On Thursday 22 July 2010 14:21:09 Russ Allbery wrote:
  Jesús M. Navarro jesus.nava...@undominio.net writes:
 [...]

  I don't agree; I think it's very hard to say the same thing about testing.

 I already told you that's about perceptions and that each one has his own so 
 I'll try this once more, after that I'll leave.

  Yes, sid sometimes breaks hard,

 It's more than that: Sid is *intended* to break hard; it's not a undesired 
 side effect.

No.  sid is *intended* to continuously integrate new versions of software
into Debian, for testing and use.  Breaking hard *is* an undesired (but
often unavoidable) side effect.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Neil Williams]

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:59:53 +0200
Jesús M. Navarro jesus.nava...@undominio.net wrote:

 Hi, Neil:
 
 On Thursday 22 July 2010 20:28:49 Neil Williams wrote:
  On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:53:53 -0700
 [..]
 
  Removing packages from testing does not remove them from any existing
  installation, so it's hard to see how the removal of packages which are
  plainly not suitable for release in stable supports an assertion that
  testing is somehow not intended for real users.
 
 Having a system with packages which are plainly not suitable for release in 
 stable doesn't ring a bell in your book?

So what is Debian expected to do? Leave the package in testing whilst
the bug is tested and fixed in unstable? You can't have it both ways.
Packages in testing will have bugs reported against them, some of those
bug reports are release-critical but not all release-critical bugs
affect all users equally. If the bug cannot be fixed, there is no
alternative but to remove the package from testing and unstable.

Testing is not 'stable'. As the name suggests, it exists for testing
purposes and testing brings new bugs to light or it isn't worth the
name. If you want stable software, use stable but real users still need
to use testing so that some real user testing does occur. The results
of that testing need to be taken into account, otherwise poor quality
software ends up in stable, which nobody wants to see happening.

Debian Testing will contain packages that have release-critical bugs
from time to time and some of those bugs force the removal of that
package from testing because there's no other way of fixing the issue.

Critical bugs cannot be ignored and buggy packages cannot be left in the
archive to trip up someone else - however, those who make a conscious
decision to keep the package can continue to use it until some other
change elsewhere means that the package can no longer operate. (Obsolete
packages like that will just collect more and more bugs because nobody
is working to keep the package in step with the dependencies etc.)

There is no magic wand to fix all critical bugs in all packages (let
alone all important bugs) and bugs will appear in packages in testing or
there is no point having 'testing'. There is no point just bleating
that the bugs all need to be fixed either - it simply isn't possible.
Some bugs just have to be fixed by removing the package. Better to
remove it from testing than leave the buggy package go into stable.

Debian work is voluntary. If you've got ideas on how some RC bugs can
be fixed, post on the relevant bug reports. That's the only way to stop
a buggy package from being removed from testing - stay alert to the
*results* of testing being a test environment and find someone / help
someone who can fix the bugs that are revealed. If you care about the
package, get involved.

If you cannot do that, then either don't use testing or don't complain
when someone else fixes the problem by removing the package.

  There are no internal release master reasons - there are Release
  Critical bugs
 
 How do you think a bug gains Critical status?  Is that the kind of software 
 you'd want installed in your system?

If the specific bug doesn't affect me directly, then why not? A
security bug doesn't affect me unless the machine running the package
is exposed to the wider network. A FTBFS bug doesn't affect me unless I
need to build that package. This is why we have a script called
rc-alert - it raises these issues with the local admin and lets the
local admin decide whether the package should be uninstalled or whether
the local admin might even have some ideas on how the bug can be fixed.

It isn't that hard to run:

$ sudo apt-get install devscripts
$ rc-alert

  and if anyone in Debian feels that the RC bug which 
  caused the removal of the package was invalid or not as bad as
  reported, then that person needs to get involved and disprove the bug
  or explain why the severity should be downgraded. If users don't do
  that, there can hardly be complaints if those publicly discussed issues
  cause the removal of the package from Debian mirrors.
 
 And once a package is removed from Debian mirrors because it is in so bad 
 state even Debian Developers can't stand allowing it being installed on third 
 party systems, how exactly does it become uninstalled from all those systems 
 that unawaringly did installed it?

The admin runs rc-alert and makes their own decision. 

Debian does not use the Kindle distribution model.

-- 


Neil Williams
=
http://www.data-freedom.org/
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
http://e-mail.is-not-s.ms/



pgpSJgKYf5bFe.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Mike Bird]

On Fri July 23 2010 00:41:12 Neil Williams wrote:
 Critical bugs cannot be ignored and buggy packages cannot be left in the
 archive to trip up someone else

For people who are relying on the package and are not affected by the
critical bug, the removal of the package is itself the problem.

--Mike Bird


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201007230456.02598.mgb-deb...@yosemite.net

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Steffen Möller]

On 07/23/2010 01:56 PM, Mike Bird wrote:
 On Fri July 23 2010 00:41:12 Neil Williams wrote:
   
 Critical bugs cannot be ignored and buggy packages cannot be left in the
 archive to trip up someone else
 
 For people who are relying on the package and are not affected by the
 critical bug, the removal of the package is itself the problem.
   
This depends on the package, the bug and on the user. It seems like
I only now start to understand the importance of snapshot.d.o .

And then, for all the important bugs that are not ours but that of
upstream, we need a good connection in that direction, too. But
the metaphoric phone number I really meant to be called only, not
to actively call.

Steffen


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c498810.6070...@gmx.de

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 22/07/10 at 14:22 +1000, Russell Coker wrote:
 On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Lucas Nussbaum lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net wrote:
   That's an interesting idea.  But where is the money going to come from?
  
  This idea is likely to get so much people against it that it's not worth
  discussing.
 
 Involvement of Debian funds would cause problems, but there are other options.
 
 We could have Debian maintain a list of consultants and companies that 
 provide 
 phone and Jabber support.  Also a mapping of consultants to areas of 
 expertise 
 would be good (EG if someone happens to need some paid expert advice on 
 Debian 
 SE Linux ;).

We currently have 827 consultants in 64 countries listed on
http://www.debian.org/consultants/, which is pretty easy to find. It's
true that this listing could be improved, but still, it's there (also,
you are not listed).

 Maybe we could have an IRC channel where people could post questions like I 
 want to pay $50 per hour to have someone fix a bug in my Perl code on 
 Debian/Lenny.  If such a channel was available then I'd occasionally use it 
 for my clients, early last year one DD got a small series of $US100 contracts 
 through me that probably took him about 30 mins each to complete - that's a 
 rate of $US200 per hour and the client was totally happy!
 
 With some of these jobs the faster the response is the more the client is 
 willing to pay.  If you can fix something within the next hour the client 
 will 
 often pay twice what they would pay to have it fixed tomorrow.  In the past 
 I've had ongoing requirements for rapid expert advice on Perl in Debian/Lenny 
 and PHP with libraries backported to Lenny from Squeeze which I couldn't find 
 adequate resources in a small enough amount of time.

So what you are proposing is that an entity would setup a service where
users would post support requests (or development requests), and
developers would, sometimes, pick up the offers and get paid for that.

While I would be totally against using Debian funds to set up such a
service, there's nothing preventing someone from investigating the idea
of creating a company that would provide that service without the
official endorsement of Debian. However, there are several problems:
- are there enough potential clients? If they are willing to pay, why
  would they choose this instead of one of the 827 consultants we
  already have listed?
- is it legally possible/easy to do? this would potentially involve
  developers from many countries with different regulations.
- are there enough interested developers?

This doesn't seem very different from bounty-sponsored development. It
has been tried before. Why did it fail?

L.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100722060252.ga13...@xanadu.blop.info

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Ben Finney]

Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes:

 This one [claim of Debian's libraries being out-of-date] always
 boggles me and makes me wonder if we should present Debian unstable or
 testing as the typical installation. Debian testing (and often
 Debian unstable) is more stable than the distributions with equivalent
 up-to-date libraries, and those distributions generally never offer
 anything remotely like Debian stable. (RHEL is considerably more
 unstable than Debian stable *and* has even older software, for
 example.)

Which of the above uses of “stable” refers to stability (“slow rate of
change”), and which refers to reliability (“high likelihood of working
when needed”)? Too many conversations conflate the two, and in this case
I think the distinction is important.

-- 
 \ “To save the world requires faith and courage: faith in reason, |
  `\and courage to proclaim what reason shows to be true.” |
_o__)—Bertrand Russell |
Ben Finney


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/874ofs6o9j.fsf...@benfinney.id.au

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Paul Wise]

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Hans-J. Ullrich hans.ullr...@loop.de wrote:

 Group 1 can be interested, either when there are Debian (and I mean really
 Debian, not derivates like Ubuntu) preinstalled Computers available. These
 should be easily configurable. A graphical interface (for example in the style
 of webmin) is absolutely necessary. There are a lot of people outside, which
 are NOT gamers, but like internet surfing, need office, e-mail and other 
 stuff.

A couple of netbook models ship with Debian:

http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware/ShippingWithDebian

 Group 2 IMO can only be motivated, if it will be possible, to prove customers
 and distributors, that a fine installed debian is running much faster than a
 windows system. I imagine, that preconfigured gaming images or -packages
 might help them.

The Debian games team created goplay to help users discover games in
Debian. Perhaps this needs more promotion and more people creating
screenshots and probably a rewrite to look more flashy.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinykauy0ieteupyhzumxnm-kf7_rml318jyi...@mail.gmail.com

RE: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Fuentes, Adolfo]

Well, then the problem I think is that people don't get to know what we all 
already know: That Debian is perhaps the best distro (in general terms). As 
Paul Wise commented, we need more promotion and more people creating 
screenshots. At least this would be the easiest and cheapest way to start with 
helping users discover these features.

Sincerely, Adolfo

---
Department of Chemistry -- Surface Science Research Centre
University of Liverpool
Crown Street
Liverpool, L69 7ZD
United Kingdom

Treat the Earth well. It was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned 
to you by your children. (Ancient native American Indian proverb)

From: paul.is.w...@gmail.com [paul.is.w...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wise 
[p...@debian.org]
Sent: 22 July 2010 07:09
To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number  
of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Hans-J. Ullrich hans.ullr...@loop.de wrote:

 Group 1 can be interested, either when there are Debian (and I mean really
 Debian, not derivates like Ubuntu) preinstalled Computers available. These
 should be easily configurable. A graphical interface (for example in the style
 of webmin) is absolutely necessary. There are a lot of people outside, which
 are NOT gamers, but like internet surfing, need office, e-mail and other 
 stuff.

A couple of netbook models ship with Debian:

http://wiki.debian.org/Hardware/ShippingWithDebian

 Group 2 IMO can only be motivated, if it will be possible, to prove customers
 and distributors, that a fine installed debian is running much faster than a
 windows system. I imagine, that preconfigured gaming images or -packages
 might help them.

The Debian games team created goplay to help users discover games in
Debian. Perhaps this needs more promotion and more people creating
screenshots and probably a rewrite to look more flashy.

--
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinykauy0ieteupyhzumxnm-kf7_rml318jyi...@mail.gmail.com


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
http://lists.debian.org/debb97ea3eef8e489b88cefa9b3f36e255f8229...@staffmbx2.livad.liv.ac.uk

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Josselin Mouette]

Le mercredi 21 juillet 2010 à 23:15 +0200, Patrick Matthäi a écrit :
 I think with our next release, we will have got less users. Why?
 We stripped out all binary only firmware images from Linux and put them
 mostly into the non-free linux-firmware image.

If you think this is a problem, you could help with providing non-free
enabled installation images instead of whining.

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  “Fuck you sir, don’t be suprised when you die if
`. `'   you burn in Hell, because I am a solid Christian
  `-and I am praying for you.”   --  Mike


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1279783292.8619.4.ca...@meh

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeudi 22 juillet 2010 à 16:09 +1000, Ben Finney a écrit :
 Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes:
 
  This one [claim of Debian's libraries being out-of-date] always
  boggles me and makes me wonder if we should present Debian unstable or
  testing as the typical installation. Debian testing (and often
  Debian unstable) is more stable than the distributions with equivalent
  up-to-date libraries, and those distributions generally never offer
  anything remotely like Debian stable. (RHEL is considerably more
  unstable than Debian stable *and* has even older software, for
  example.)
 
 Which of the above uses of “stable” refers to stability (“slow rate of
 change”), and which refers to reliability (“high likelihood of working
 when needed”)? Too many conversations conflate the two, and in this case
 I think the distinction is important.

Having already seen a major postfix upgrade which broke all existing
installations in a RHEL update, I think we can talk of both stability
and reliability in both contexts.

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  “Fuck you sir, don’t be suprised when you die if
`. `'   you burn in Hell, because I am a solid Christian
  `-and I am praying for you.”   --  Mike


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1279783868.8619.7.ca...@meh

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Miguel Figueiredo]

Em 21-07-2010 18:38, Hans-J. Ullrich escreveu:

Hi community,


[...]

Hi all,

from my personal experience, at management level these kind of questions 
are usual:


- how much will it cost? do i need a bigger workforce?
- Will everything work???
- if anything goest wrong the 'guys who sell it' can reliably (and fast) 
fix it for me?

- if i want to change anything the same guys will do it for me?
- How reliable is this company? Can we really trust them? How come I 
never heard of this?

- why should I change? How will my bussiness benefit?



...my 0,02€ coin.

--

Melhores cumprimentos/Best regards,

Miguel Figueiredo
http://www.DebianPT.org


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c480776.7020...@debianpt.org

RE: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[j jj]

Years ago, when I chose which linux should be installed to my computer, it is 
dpkg which attracted me.  No other linux systems have such a feature. 

However, ubuntu and redhat both have the same feature now.

The question is : what is the feature which outstanding debian now? Maybe the 
only answer is the rich packages. But for most of people , they do not care 
about it.

To attract more people to debian, some particular features are need to show to 
the world.


regards,
j
  
_
The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/col105-w8e340769e046e134b7b0ccf...@phx.gbl

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Giacomo A. Catenazzi]

On 07/21/2010 11:31 AM, Andreas Tille wrote:



IMHO this is worth another thread how to make Debian more attractive for
users ...



I think it is bugous to ask such question.

IMHO we should care about improving Debian, going toward the perfection, 
not about increasing the number of users (which should

be a nice secondary effect).

I don't think increasing the number of Debian user is per se
a nice things, after looking Ubuntu.
Handling new users is not always enjoying (because of a small
share of them, remember Debian 10 year ago?).

So I like to have Ubuntu as 1-level support (and distribution)
and Debian for much stronger requirements.
It enjoys users and developers on both sides:
Ubuntu: low entry point for user and also for developers
Debian: challenging problem solving.
Both: a way to solve complex problems without crashing the heads so
many time into the wall.

So, let see how to improve Debian, not how to increase
our userbase!

ciao
cate


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c480134.3050...@debian.org

Better GoPlay [Was: How to make Debian more attractive for users]

[Andreas Tille]

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 02:09:58PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
 
 The Debian games team created goplay to help users discover games in
 Debian. Perhaps this needs more promotion and more people creating
 screenshots and probably a rewrite to look more flashy.

When I have seen GoPlay I thought: What a cool idea realised in a narrow
minded way.  Why do I consider it narrow minded?  I'm quoting the FAQ:

Q: How do I submit a screenshot?
A: Send Miriam a 320x240 thumbnail picture in png format.

Since more than one year we have screenshots.debian.net and GoPlay just
sticks to a non-maintainable competition to this great service.  Is
there any sense to stick to this instead of simply using
screenshots.debian.net (and advertise this great service in the FAQ to
motivate gamers providing screenshots which can be used in *all*
applications for instance synaptics (and other apt frontends in case
they might support screenshots) as well as the Blends web sentinel?

IMHO this would be a simply reasonable way to go.

An even better way to go in my (perhaps to focussed view) would be if
the pkg-games team would join the Blends effort.  (I several times
pinged them for either taking care for Debian Jr or draw this project in
their direction.)  In this case they could make profit from screenshots
and more (for instance translations of package descriptions) as it is
demonstrated at the web sentinel pages[1] of this project.  The big
advantage of havng this stuff on the web is that you can point people to
it *before* they installed Debian and make it an *argument* for using
Debian.  To try goplay you need to have Debian just installed.

So in short:  GoPlay is quite cool but done the wrong way.  If you would
use screenshots.debian.net as input and would be flexible enough to
handle also other topics than just playing in a reasonable way (either
by enhancing DebTags to somehow match the tasks of the existing Blends
or use the tasks of Blends as a primary package selection and draw the
remaining information from DebTags) this would be really helpful for
Debian in general (and not only for players).

Kind regards

   Andreas.

[1] http://blends.alioth.debian.org/junior/tasks/

-- 
http://fam-tille.de


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100722082007.gc12...@an3as.eu

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users, was: Re: The number of popcon.debian.org-submissions is falling

[Jesús M. Navarro]

Hi, Manoj:

On Thursday 22 July 2010 07:17:15 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 21 2010, Will wrote:
  Also I imagine that it helps that they have some kind of commercial
  support behind their projects, whereas Debian has little/none of that.

 One of the  issues I have faced in trying to get Debian
  introduced in big companies is the percieved lack of a coherent
  copyright; and company lawyers being uncomfortable with the concept
  that most licesnse pass the dfsg, but we can't guarantee that, please
  go read several thoudand individual license docs to figure out what you
  are getting.

That's again about perception.  Debian has exactly the same copyright 
coherence (or lack of it) than SUSE, Red Hat, Ubuntu or even proprietary 
Unices.

Cheers.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201007221044.11066.jesus.nava...@undominio.net

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Jesús M. Navarro]

Hi, Ben:

On Thursday 22 July 2010 08:09:44 Ben Finney wrote:
 Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes:
  This one [claim of Debian's libraries being out-of-date] always
  boggles me and makes me wonder if we should present Debian unstable or
  testing as the typical installation. Debian testing (and often
  Debian unstable) is more stable than the distributions with equivalent
  up-to-date libraries, and those distributions generally never offer
  anything remotely like Debian stable. (RHEL is considerably more
  unstable than Debian stable *and* has even older software, for
  example.)

 Which of the above uses of “stable” refers to stability (“slow rate of
 change”), and which refers to reliability (“high likelihood of working
 when needed”)? Too many conversations conflate the two, and in this case
 I think the distinction is important.

Why?

With my user hat on the only stability I care of is it ain't break.  When a 
system breaks it makes no distintion if it's because a not so well managed 
upgrade, an app bug or an interaction problem among different packages.  In 
fact, system-wide, an upgrade failure is nothing but another bug.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201007221047.21295.jesus.nava...@undominio.net

Re: How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Andreas Tille]

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:28:36AM +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:

 IMHO this is worth another thread how to make Debian more attractive for
 users ...


 I think it is bugous to ask such question.

Why.

 IMHO we should care about improving Debian, going toward the perfection,  
 not about increasing the number of users (which should
 be a nice secondary effect).

So you have even found the answer to the question - or rather you
pronounced it differently, because whe need to ask:  What exactly is
perfection?  In my eyes perfection means:  So good that people will
prefer it over others.

 So, let see how to improve Debian, not how to increase
 our userbase!

I do not think that we succeed in improving Debian if the userbase is
decreasing.  IMHO this would mean we are trapped in an ivory tower.  So
both parameters quality of distribution and number of users are
somehow connected and you can not ignore this relation.

Kind regards

   Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100722083803.gd12...@an3as.eu