Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
Mark W. Eichin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ps. Of course the behaviour in paragraph 2 has nothing to do with unix either; unix terminal handling is far too primitive for that. Long Live Multics :-) Of course, nowadays the interact command under expect can easily handle this kind of thing... -- Raul -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
I heard that the original DEC vt100? terminals had delete there and so they Nope. The VT100 *actually* had both keys there: +--++--++--+ |~`||BS||BK| +--++--++--+ +---++--+ | ||DL| | |+--+ +--+ |+--+ | RET ||\|| +--++--+ where RET was labeled RETURN, DL was labeled DELETE, BK was labeled BREAK, and BS was labeled BACK SPACE (one word above the other.) The arrow keys were a row of up down left right, with right directly above backspace. In the days of the vt100 (when dinosaurs roamed the machine room) backspace *meant* move the cursor back one space. It did *not* mean delete anything. This was compatible with printing terminals. It was often used for accents (e backspace ') or APL (quad backspace quote, but you needed a vt102 with the right character roms to handle that one.) In the former case, the OS (well, the front end processor actually) saw the e, echoed it, saw the backspace, echoed it, then saw the ' and echoed é (well, whatever the local terminal description had for that, it wasn't ISO8859-1 that early.) The point of this is only to provide a history lesson. I *don't* think that what a vt100 does is a particularly useful data point for this argument. (Also, I'm in favor of making Ian's detailed plan policy, just to end the arguments -- we've had thousands of messages (hundreds in the bugsystem alone) on the subject, without any otherwise notable progress.) _Mark_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Herd of Kittens Debian X Maintainer ps. Of course the behaviour in paragraph 2 has nothing to do with unix either; unix terminal handling is far too primitive for that. Long Live Multics :-) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Will Lowe) wrote on 08.12.97 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Philip Hands wrote: BTW I'd be interested to hear any justification of why --- == DEL Well, from a sheer visual standpoint, seeing an arrow pointing to the left, like on the BS key (--), makes one think that pushing that button's going to move the cursor that way, just like the other arrow keys. Well, that's what the -- == DEL proposal wants to have, too. I've NEVER understood the funky behavior of the BS key on *nix. What funky behaviour? In my VCs, -- gives DEL and destructively moves the cursor to the left. Under DOS, -- gives BS and destructively moves the cursor to the left. Where is the problem? MfG Kai -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alexander E. Apke) wrote on 08.12.97 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I think there is another reason for choosing --- == BS, for internationalization. I believe it requires --- == BS, though I am not entirely sure. This may be the reason for the push for --- == BS, even though debian developers seem to accept --- == DEL. I see absolutely no reason why it should make any difference at all for i18n. Where did you get that idea? Doesn't make any sense to me. I agree, but if feel the opposite --- == BS should be default because most linux users come from the dos world, and the keys on a linux terminal/xterm should act the same as in dos. Emacs users know more about unix and therfore should know how to change stty erase This is silly. They only need to act the same insofar as they cause similar effects in programs; there is absolutely no reason to generate the exact same binary codes. MfG Kai -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
I agree, but if feel the opposite --- == BS should be default because most linux users come from the dos world, and the keys on a linux terminal/xterm should act the same as in dos. Emacs users know more about unix and therfore should know how to change stty erase Um, how does a normal user find out what the --- key is generating on a well set up system? As long as the character to the left of the cursor disapears, they are unlikely to know or care what is actually being generated by the keypress. BTW I'd be interested to hear any justification of why --- == DEL makes life difficult for internationalisation. If this is a reality, it might be the first bit of weighty justification for the BS setting. Cheers, Phil. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Philip Hands wrote: BTW I'd be interested to hear any justification of why --- == DEL Well, from a sheer visual standpoint, seeing an arrow pointing to the left, like on the BS key (--), makes one think that pushing that button's going to move the cursor that way, just like the other arrow keys. I've NEVER understood the funky behavior of the BS key on *nix. Will -- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | http://www.cis.udel.edu/~lowe/ | -- |The problem with computers: | || | rivendell[501] [~] love me | | bash: love: command not found | | rivendell[502] [~] hug me| | bash: hug: command not found | -- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
Well, from a sheer visual standpoint, seeing an arrow pointing to the left, like on the BS key (--), makes one think that pushing that button's going to move the cursor that way, just like the other arrow keys. I've NEVER understood the funky behavior of the BS key on *nix. I think we are talking at cross purposes here. As far as I know, nobody is suggesting that the --- key should do anything other than delete the character to the left of the cursor, when pressed. The point under discussion is about whether the character generated in order to obtain this result should be ASCII BS (0x08) or ASCII DEL (0x7f). It is intended that whichever is chosen, that the stty setting should cause that character to do the delete-to-the-left action, regardless. It is also intended that this default should be reversible by a local admin. If you have a system that causes the character under the cursor to disappear when --- is pressed, then your system is either mis-configured and should have the stty setting set to match you keyboard mapping, or you are using some broken software that is ignoring the stty setting. Cheers, Phil. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
On Mon, Dec 08, 1997 at 07:38:00PM -0500, Will Lowe wrote: On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Philip Hands wrote: BTW I'd be interested to hear any justification of why --- == DEL Well, from a sheer visual standpoint, seeing an arrow pointing to the left, like on the BS key (--), makes one think that pushing that button's going to move the cursor that way, just like the other arrow keys. I've NEVER understood the funky behavior of the BS key on *nix. I heard that the original DEC vt100? terminals had delete there and so they decided that they wouldn't change it to delete to the left. Why Linux kept this I don't know. Personally I don't care what it set to what, as long as it works like in DOS/OS2/NT - and Atari :-) Adrian email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Debian Linux - www.debian.org http://www.poboxes.com/adrian.bridgett | Because bloated, unstable PGP key available on public key servers | operating systems are from MS -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
On Sun Dec 7 21:56:55 1997 + (Sekmadienis, 1997 m. gruodio 7 d. 23:56:55 +0200), Philip Hands wrote: Sorry, but don't we keep on agreeing that the --- key generating DEL is the right thing to do ? No, I don't think so. I could have sworn that I've been in several discussions that resulted in that conclusion, with the caveat that people should be able to reverse the default easily if they feel the need, as a local configuration option. I must admit that I have got a little bored with the discussion at times, and may have skipped some of it. So if someone has a more powerful argument for ``--- generates BS'' than ``well they sound the same'' I'd like to hear it. It was discussed really boringly often. I don't want to start a flame war, so feel free to mail me direct, and I'll summarise to the list. Cheers, Phil. Common trend is to use stty erase value for key_backspace. In that way you can easily set it to whatever you want or what suites your terminal even without root access. Some people may say 'that evil M$-DOS use Backspace for Backspace key, let's do the opposite'. But I don't think this is relevent. Regards, -- Riardas epas -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
On Mon 08 Dec 1997, Remco Blaakmeer wrote: I just want to be able to use both the 'Backspace' key and the 'Delete' key on any VC, xterm or rxvt and I want them to do just what I expect them to do, which is the same as what they do in MS-DOS. Now, if I am seeing it totally wrong, then please explain it to me. The VC sends DEL (octal 177) for the '--' key, so by your own requirements rxvt should also send DEL for that key. A year ago I started using Linux and all of a sudden I got confronted with people who strongly believe that the 'Backspace' key should do 'Delete'. This is very, very confusing to me. Why don't you just let the keys do what is written on them? I don't want the 'A' key to generate a 'B' and I don't want my 'Backspace' key to do 'Delete'. I have a 'Delete' key for that. It's not a question of a key doing something. The key sends something, and the application / tty driver does something with it. As long as the stty erase value corresponds to what the -- key sends, there's no problem. You could make that key send ctrl-e or whatever; as long as the stty value corresponds to that, it will work the way you expect it to. As rxvt's default action is to configure the -- key to send whatever is in the stty erase value, rxvt does The Right Thing, IMHO. Forcing rxvt to always send ^H for the -- key would not be consistent with what VC's do. Paul Slootman -- Can you get your operating system fixed when you need it? Linux - the supportable operating system. http://www.debian.org/support.html home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wurtel.demon.nl | Murphy Software, Enschede, the Netherlands -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
Here are a few related pros and cons. --- == BS, but we must decide on one or the other as the installation default. --- == BS sounds right. IMHO this is just silly. --- == DEL is different from DOS. This to is just silly --- == DEL gives us an extra usable key on the main keyboard, since it differentiates between --- and ^H --- == DEL is standard in Linux-land at the moment (very strong argument for keeping it that way IMHO) --- == BS allows the uninitiated easier use from DOS/Windows telnet's and the like (this needs a HOWTO to explain how to do the configuration, but is probably the strongest argument for the BS setting) I think there is another reason for choosing --- == BS, for internationalization. I believe it requires --- == BS, though I am not entirely sure. This may be the reason for the push for --- == BS, even though debian developers seem to accept --- == DEL. In conclusion, I'd say --- == DEL gets to be the default setting on three grounds: 1) Inertia 2) Emacs (more inertia and extra functionality) 3) Ease of reversing the decision by local admins. We need to make point 3 a reality of course ;-) I agree, but if feel the opposite --- == BS should be default because most linux users come from the dos world, and the keys on a linux terminal/xterm should act the same as in dos. Emacs users know more about unix and therfore should know how to change stty erase But definatly #3 should be followed. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
On Mon, Dec 8 1997 10:58 GMT Philip Hands writes: --- == DEL is standard in Linux-land at the moment (very strong argument for keeping it that way IMHO) This comes from the fact, that the Linux VC is emulating a VT102. David -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brian Mays) writes: Okay. I'm building a new unstable version of rxvt with backspace set to ^H. From this point on, Debian's rxvt policy will be to use ^H as backspace by default. Couldn't you force it to ^? instead? That would be far more sensible. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
On Sun Dec 7 09:15:28 1997 + (Sekmadienis, 1997 m. gruodio 7 d. 11:15:28 +0200), Mark Baker wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brian Mays) writes: Okay. I'm building a new unstable version of rxvt with backspace set to ^H. From this point on, Debian's rxvt policy will be to use ^H as backspace by default. Couldn't you force it to ^? instead? That would be far more sensible. Wouldn't it be better don't force people to use what they don't want? This only results in flamewars. There is lots of configuration files and convincing every application to do 'right thing' separately is quite tedious. Simple `reset' can set stty erase according to terminfo key_backspace. -- Riardas epas -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
On Sun Dec 7 09:15:28 1997 + (Sekmadienis, 1997 m. gruodio 7 d. 11:15:28 +0200), Mark Baker wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brian Mays) writes: Okay. I'm building a new unstable version of rxvt with backspace set to ^H. From this point on, Debian's rxvt policy will be to use ^H as backspace by default. Couldn't you force it to ^? instead? That would be far more sensible. Wouldn't it be better don't force people to use what they don't want? This only results in flamewars. There is lots of configuration files and convincing every application to do 'right thing' separately is quite tedious. Simple `reset' can set stty erase according to terminfo key_backspace. Sorry, but don't we keep on agreeing that the --- key generating DEL is the right thing to do ? I could have sworn that I've been in several discussions that resulted in that conclusion, with the caveat that people should be able to reverse the default easily if they feel the need, as a local configuration option. I must admit that I have got a little bored with the discussion at times, and may have skipped some of it. So if someone has a more powerful argument for ``--- generates BS'' than ``well they sound the same'' I'd like to hear it. I don't want to start a flame war, so feel free to mail me direct, and I'll summarise to the list. Cheers, Phil. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Philip Hands wrote: Sorry, but don't we keep on agreeing that the --- key generating DEL is the right thing to do ? No, we don't. I could have sworn that I've been in several discussions that resulted in that conclusion, with the caveat that people should be able to reverse the default easily if they feel the need, as a local configuration option. I must admit that I have got a little bored with the discussion at times, and may have skipped some of it. So if someone has a more powerful argument for ``--- generates BS'' than ``well they sound the same'' I'd like to hear it. I started using PCs when the only choice for me was MS-DOS with probably MS-Windows 3.0 on it. Things were easy back then. The 'Backspace' key did 'Backspace' and the 'Delete' key did 'Delete', just like the letters on the keys said. A year ago I started using Linux and all of a sudden I got confronted with people who strongly believe that the 'Backspace' key should do 'Delete'. This is very, very confusing to me. Why don't you just let the keys do what is written on them? I don't want the 'A' key to generate a 'B' and I don't want my 'Backspace' key to do 'Delete'. I have a 'Delete' key for that. I just want to be able to use both the 'Backspace' key and the 'Delete' key on any VC, xterm or rxvt and I want them to do just what I expect them to do, which is the same as what they do in MS-DOS. Now, if I am seeing it totally wrong, then please explain it to me. Remco -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: BS in rxvt+ncurses
Brian Mays wrote: This is the rxvt maintainer here. Rxvt has many optional compile-time features, one of which is the behavior of the backspace key. Normally, I avoid modifying as many of the upstream settings as possible, unless someone gives me a valid reason to change them. Currently, rxvt sets the backspace key by using the current stty setting of erase to guess a Backspace value of either ^H or ^?. I can change a compile-time option to force rxvt to us ^H always for backspace. Is this useful? Galen Hazelwood writes: Well, it would free me from having to make a quick new release of ncurses, so I think it would be useful. People seem to have found a workaround, but I think it's better to have it set right to begin with... Okay. I'm building a new unstable version of rxvt with backspace set to ^H. From this point on, Debian's rxvt policy will be to use ^H as backspace by default. Brian -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
