Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Josip Rodin]

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:15:24PM -0300, Carlos Laviola wrote:
> > No. This is directed at the people who would mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> > mesages like "Go home proprietary l0s0rz! j00 are l4m3! Debian doesn't
> > need you! Signed, [EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> 
> Well, it seems to me like you're implying there would be
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] that would be so lame that they would not know the
> difference between criticizing what can be very easily criticized (i.e., this
> infamous IIS server) and directly attacking someone like a script kiddie
> would do.  Frankly, I expect more of my fellow developers, and I think
> you should, too.

Yes, I agree we should expect more, but usually we can't.

-- 
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Carlos Laviola]

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:55:57PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Carlos Laviola wrote:
> > IIS server because "we" were given money.  I believe principles are more
> > important than money.
> 
> So spend your time writing the scripts. 

I will.

-- 
Carlos Laviola   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Debian GNU/Linux 


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joe Drew]

I promised myself that I wouldn't get into this any more, but it seems
that people still aren't understanding...

On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 20:15, Carlos Laviola wrote:
> Well, it seems to me like you're implying there would be
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] that would be so lame that they would not know the
> difference between criticizing what can be very easily criticized (i.e., this
> infamous IIS server) and directly attacking someone like a script kiddie
> would do.  Frankly, I expect more of my fellow developers, and I think
> you should, too.

I expect more of my developers, but frankly I am rather pessimistic
about the average person. I can easily imagine someone who, upon reading
this in DWN, gets it into their head that Lindows.com is evil and should
'learn their lesson' for using IIS (if indeed it is them using IIS and
not just some anonymous hosting site).

> Also, it is amazing that pretty much no one else has showed disapproval
> of this.  Come on, people, there is no way in the world you can convince
> yourselves logically that it is okay to host a registration form in an
> IIS server because "we" were given money.  I believe principles are more
> important than money.

Just like me. But I believe actions are much more important than
principles. Let me reiterate this yet again: I am not giving
preferential treatment to Lindows.com in any way. I thank them because
they are the only people who did anything regarding this registration
form. *Nobody else _did_ anything.* It's not like someone said "Hey,
here's this registration form already hosted and working" and then
Lindows.com came to me and said "Here's another one" and I chose them.
Lindows.com gave me the *only* registration form I have received,
period. 

It's not a matter of being 'okay' that they're using IIS - it's a matter
of there being no alternatives because nobody bothered to make them,
even after this thread. I think if it was important to anybody, by this
point someone would have said "Here's an alternate form." Nobody has,
and now it's way too late - the publicity has made
http://lindows.com/debconf2 the authoritative URL to register for
Debconf 2.

We don't have to debate the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of using IIS.
It's a bit strange that Debian's using a registration page running on
IIS, but that's just the way things fell. Lindows.com did us a favour --
without them there wouldn't have been *any* registration form. Remember
that.

I hope this is the last of my replies to this thread.

-- 
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Carlos Laviola wrote:
> IIS server because "we" were given money.  I believe principles are more
> important than money.

So spend your time writing the scripts. 

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Carlos Laviola]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 04:01:46PM -0500, Joe Drew wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 15:03, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > Joe Drew wrote:
> > > Let me re-iterate this for people who might not have gotten the message:
> > > 
> > > LINDOWS.COM HAS SPENT REAL MONEY ON DEBCONF 2 AND DESERVES SUPPORT, NOT
> > > SCORN.
> > 
> > While I don't want to squeze lindows support, I have to interpret
> > this statement like "Joey, shut up!  Somebody has spent real money
> > on Debconf and supporting it on non-free stuff, including license
> > fees to a well-known Redmond based company, they deserve support
> > for it".  Well, it doesn't make me feel better, I have to admit.
> 
> No. This is directed at the people who would mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> mesages like "Go home proprietary l0s0rz! j00 are l4m3! Debian doesn't
> need you! Signed, [EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> 
> Sorry if it seemed that way, Joey.

Well, it seems to me like you're implying there would be
[EMAIL PROTECTED] that would be so lame that they would not know the
difference between criticizing what can be very easily criticized (i.e., this
infamous IIS server) and directly attacking someone like a script kiddie
would do.  Frankly, I expect more of my fellow developers, and I think
you should, too.

Also, it is amazing that pretty much no one else has showed disapproval
of this.  Come on, people, there is no way in the world you can convince
yourselves logically that it is okay to host a registration form in an
IIS server because "we" were given money.  I believe principles are more
important than money.

Just my $0.02.

-- 
Carlos Laviola   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Debian GNU/Linux 


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Richard Braakman]

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 06:30:29AM -0400, Joe Drew wrote:
> Two quotes come to mind:

[...]

You left out my favourite :)

  "Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself."
- A. H. Weller, according to the first google hit.

Richard Braakman


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joe Drew]

On Mon, 2002-04-08 at 02:44, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Since I had to use grep to find it in the mail, it was well hidden
> and I don't consider this a proper call for help like done by other
> people who actively seek for help and receive them.  Personally, I
> don't wonder why only two people volunteered.  Hence, my initial
> statement remains.

Since you're the only person who's volunteered in any way, even after
this long thread, I am not convinced that anything would have actually
gotten done.

Two quotes come to mind:

"A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that
no one would find fault with what he had done." 
- John Henry Cardinal Newman 

"Nobody ever did anything so well that no one could find fault with it."
- Leo Menard, my grandfather

The latter is especially true.

I'm finished talking about this issue.

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[David N. Welton]

Jeroen Dekkers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Of course it's nice of them that they help, but I still think it's
> wrong that the registration page is hosted on a server with non-free
> software and with a link to a site trying to sell non-free
> products. Certainly because we can make the registration form with
> free software without any links to non-free stuff.

You're not too far off the mark, but the missing ingredient here is
you getting off your ass and making it happen (i.e. writing code,
finding someone to host the machine) instead of just complaining and
telling other people what they should and shouldn't do.

-- 
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 Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Martin Schulze]

Joe Drew wrote:
> On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 15:30, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > However, I still cannot find a request for help with setting up a
> > registration site/form on this list, neither including nor excluding
> > specs, searching from November 2001 until now.
> 
> You were looking in the wrong spot. Check Message-Id:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, my initial mail to
> debian-devel-announce on DebConf 2:
> "As well, all those who are willing or able to help administrate (for
> example, by getting some sort of web application up where people can
> sign up for rooms), contact me as well."

Since I had to use grep to find it in the mail, it was well hidden
and I don't consider this a proper call for help like done by other
people who actively seek for help and receive them.  Personally, I
don't wonder why only two people volunteered.  Hence, my initial
statement remains.

Thanks for the clarification,

Joey

-- 
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Marcus Brinkmann]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:30:48PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> It's also probably worth pointing out, as you seem to see yourself as
> "the Dutch RMS", that the Free Software Foundation also accepts
> donations from proprietary software companies: 
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/thankgnus/2002supporters.html

Yes, GNU lists the supporters on that web page if they don't say that they
want to remain anonymous.  This is well defined and happens under certain
circumstances (eg if you donate a certain amount of money, you get listed as
a Patron and get a luxury CD Rom and a T-Shirt or whatever).  Debian also
lists sponsors on the web page etc.

I think this issue is not so much about that sponsors are credited at all,
or where those sponsors come from and what they do otherwise, but about the
conditions.  If you define up-front what happens if somebody sponsors
something, then there can be less confusion about it and it is more clear
when something "inacceptable" happens.

Anyway, this said, I am not sure how official the relationship between the
Debian conference and Debian is anyway.  I have not even looked at the
lindows registration page to see what people are complaining about.  But I
thought that this difference is worth noting and might explain some of the
heat here.

Thanks,
Marcus

-- 
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Marcus Brinkmann  GNUhttp://www.gnu.org[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Richard Braakman]

On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 01:53:07PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> IMHO the non-free section should be removed.

Well, go for it.  In the meantime, stop antagonizing people who do nice
things for us.

-- 
Richard Braakman
"I sense a disturbance in the force"
"As though millions of voices cried out, and ran apt-get."
  (Anthony Towns about the Debian 3.0 release)


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joe Drew]

On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 15:30, Martin Schulze wrote:
> However, I still cannot find a request for help with setting up a
> registration site/form on this list, neither including nor excluding
> specs, searching from November 2001 until now.

You were looking in the wrong spot. Check Message-Id:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, my initial mail to
debian-devel-announce on DebConf 2:
"As well, all those who are willing or able to help administrate (for
example, by getting some sort of web application up where people can
sign up for rooms), contact me as well."

As I said, a couple of people contacted me (1 to code a web application,
and more than one person offered hosting, I believe) and I specifically
sent the person who was willing to code the web application the LSM's
registration software, which they were kind enough to supply me, but
nobody ever actually *did* anything. When Lindows.com came to me with a
fully completed and functioning (albeit simple; I just get an e-mail for
every registration) web page, I decided to use it.

However, no apologies from anybody are needed. As I said, I'm very
concerned about Free Software, and Debian's use of it, and I completely
understand that this is a very big deal for many people. It's just that
I'm more concerned about getting the job done at this point in time than
how it's being done.
 
-- 
Joe Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Martin Schulze]

Joe Drew wrote:
> On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 04:54, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > > To the best of my knowledge, no. But I didn't have time to learn how and
> > > do it, and Lindows.com decided that they wanted to pay one of their
> > > engineers to do it. It's quite simple: nobody else did it, so I took
> > > Lindows.com up on their offer.
> > 
> > This is rather unfair, since nobody asked for this type of help.
> 
> Actually, I asked for help with specifically this. Nobody actually did
> anything except for Lindows.com.

Hmm, I don't remember any such question but that doesn't have to imply
that there wasn't.  Hence, if you've asked and haven't received any
help, I will apologize for calling your behaviour unfair.

However, I still cannot find a request for help with setting up a
registration site/form on this list, neither including nor excluding
specs, searching from November 2001 until now.

Here's the thread listing from the mailbox, extracted via
'grepmail Drew', which is also available at
<http://master.debian.org/~joey/debconf.mbox>


Mutt 1.3.25i   luonnotar:/tmp/x [27/27 msgs, 4 new, 57K bytes]   (threads)
   1 N   Dec 04 Joe Drew39 Debconf in Toronto, or lack thereof
   2 N   Dec 04 Jaime E. Villate22 +->
   3 Ns  Dec 04 Eric Dorland58 | +->
   4 N   Dec 04 Adam Majer  13 +->
   5 O   Feb 25 Tollef Fog Heen 20 Re: Debconf 2?
   6 O   Feb 25 Joe Drew21 +->
   7 O   Feb 27 Joe Drew22   +->
   8 O   Feb 28 Russell Coker   32 +->
   9 O   Feb 28 Joe Drew23   +->
  10 Mar 01 James A. Treacy 30 Re: Debconf 2 in Toronto: July 6-8th, 
2002
  11 O   Mar 03 Matt Zimmerman  19 +->
  12 O   Mar 04 Joe Drew27   +->
  13 O   Mar 05 Matt Zimmerman  20   | +->
  14 O   Mar 05 Martin Schulze  29   +->
  15 O   Apr 06 Martin Schulze  81 Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration
  16 O   Apr 06 Joe Drew55 +->
  17 O   Apr 06 Sean 'Shaleh' Per   14   +->
  18 O   Apr 06 Martin Schulze  26   +->
  19 O   Apr 06 Joe Drew28   | +->
  20 Os  Apr 06 Jeroen Dekkers  70   +->
  21 O   Apr 06 Joe Drew58 +->
  22 Os  Apr 07 Jeroen Dekkers 102   +->
  23 O   Apr 06 Joe Drew35   | +->
  24 Os  Apr 07 Jeroen Dekkers  59   |   +->
  25 Os  Apr 06 Nathan E Norman 64   | +->
  26 O   Apr 07 Martin Schulze  63   +->
  27 O   Apr 07 Joe Drew46 +->

None of your mails contain a request for help, so I'm wondering where
you sent your request for help.

> Yes, we're Debian. Yes, we're dedicated to Free Software. No, nobody
> else did anything for this. No, I didn't have time to waste. Yes, I care
> about Free Software: but Yes, I care a lot more about getting the job
> done. If having this done on a free software platform was so vitally
> important (as it appears now), it seems to me that someone would have
> stepped forward in this entire discussion to say "Here's a working
> alternative" or even "I would have done it if I were asked." Nobody has.
> Nobody's even suggested they might have done it.

I'd be glad to provide a working alternative, but not earlier than in
three weeks if that's sufficient.  I would have been able to provide
one four weeks ago as well, if you had asked.

> Frankly, this is tiring me out. In reference to nobody in particular, if
> all we're going to do is flame on about Free vs proprietary software for
> the rest of this thread, let's just drop it.

Before dropping, please send clarification to the observation from
above, so I know if I shall apologize or not.

Regards,

Joey

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Martin Schulze]

Wilmer van der Gaast wrote:
> Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]@Sun, 7 Apr 2002 10:54:06 +0200:
> >  You may not aware of the discussion we had last year, when VMware
> >  offered to donate five (or another amount, not sure anymore) licenses
> >  of their vmware product to Debian in order to help us develop
> >  boot-floppies.
> >  
> Just wondering, is your computer free or non-free? Did you get all the
> blueprints of your CPU/chipset/VGA/etc? Nahh.. Probably not. Will
> someone give them to you if you want them? Probably not.
> 
> Your computer's non-free.. A virtual computer can be non-free too, and
> until Plex86 becomes usable I'll have to use it.. It runs a non-free OS
> as well (as long as someone pays me for doing stuff with Windows, that
> is).

This is your personal decision which is fine and nobody can misaccept
it.  You are free not only to switch between different pieces of Free
Software but also between Free and non-free software.  As long as this
is your personal system and decision and it doesn't affect third
projects badly.

However, if the Debian project would embrace such software (too much),
it would place the wrong signals into the software world and would
make the project lose their creditability.  Just think about the fact
that we refused to put KDE in potato's non-free directory but would
use/embrace/depend on non-free, proprietary software that we may not
even distribute?  Does that sound sane to you?  I hope not.

Regards,

Joey

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joe Drew]

On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 04:54, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > To the best of my knowledge, no. But I didn't have time to learn how and
> > do it, and Lindows.com decided that they wanted to pay one of their
> > engineers to do it. It's quite simple: nobody else did it, so I took
> > Lindows.com up on their offer.
> 
> This is rather unfair, since nobody asked for this type of help.

Actually, I asked for help with specifically this. Nobody actually did
anything except for Lindows.com.
 
> I know that there are several people in our project who do speak PHP,
> which would be a proper language to do so, it's also enabled on auric,
> klecker and pandora.  If that's not good enough, there's still perl
> and python run through /cgi-bin/ just like it is on master.  We also
> have databases in use on several hosts.

Yep - and I _could have_ spent the time to do it with PHP or perl or
whatever, too. The fact is, these people didn't step up, and I didn't
have the time, and Lindows.com just did it. What am I going to say to
them: "I know you have spent time and effort on this, but just on
general pragmatic reasons I'm going to refuse you. By the way, can we
have some more money?"

Yes, we're Debian. Yes, we're dedicated to Free Software. No, nobody
else did anything for this. No, I didn't have time to waste. Yes, I care
about Free Software: but Yes, I care a lot more about getting the job
done. If having this done on a free software platform was so vitally
important (as it appears now), it seems to me that someone would have
stepped forward in this entire discussion to say "Here's a working
alternative" or even "I would have done it if I were asked." Nobody has.
Nobody's even suggested they might have done it.

Frankly, this is tiring me out. In reference to nobody in particular, if
all we're going to do is flame on about Free vs proprietary software for
the rest of this thread, let's just drop it.

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Jamie Wilkinson]

This one time, at band camp, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
>IMHO the non-free section should be removed.

IMHO you should write less email and fix more bugs.

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but we keep reading
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Jeroen Dekkers]

On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 04:12:16AM +0300, Richard Braakman wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 03:03:14AM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > We should not advertise directly or indirectly non-free software.
> 
> Er, we _host_ non-free software on our servers, and distribute it via
> our mirror network.  If you want to go on a crusade, then there are
> targets closer to home.

IMHO the non-free section should be removed.

Jeroen Dekkers
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Wilmer van der Gaast]

Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]@Sun, 7 Apr 2002 10:54:06 +0200:
>  You may not aware of the discussion we had last year, when VMware
>  offered to donate five (or another amount, not sure anymore) licenses
>  of their vmware product to Debian in order to help us develop
>  boot-floppies.
>  
Just wondering, is your computer free or non-free? Did you get all the
blueprints of your CPU/chipset/VGA/etc? Nahh.. Probably not. Will
someone give them to you if you want them? Probably not.

Your computer's non-free.. A virtual computer can be non-free too, and
until Plex86 becomes usable I'll have to use it.. It runs a non-free OS
as well (as long as someone pays me for doing stuff with Windows, that
is).

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Martin Schulze]

Colin Walters wrote:
> It's also probably worth pointing out, as you seem to see yourself as
> "the Dutch RMS", that the Free Software Foundation also accepts
> donations from proprietary software companies: 
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/thankgnus/2002supporters.html

This is a bogus argument.  The Debian Project is not the Free Software
Foundation, otherwise we would have ceased the non-free section on our
FTP servers already.

Regards,

Joey

PS: You don't need to be insulting to Jeroen.

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Martin Schulze]

Joe Drew wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 15:09, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > > I don't *like* the registration page being hosted on IIS. But I prefer a
> > > registration page to no registration page at all.
> > 
> > Is it that difficult to make a registration page with free software?
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, no. But I didn't have time to learn how and
> do it, and Lindows.com decided that they wanted to pay one of their
> engineers to do it. It's quite simple: nobody else did it, so I took
> Lindows.com up on their offer.

This is rather unfair, since nobody asked for this type of help.

I know that there are several people in our project who do speak PHP,
which would be a proper language to do so, it's also enabled on auric,
klecker and pandora.  If that's not good enough, there's still perl
and python run through /cgi-bin/ just like it is on master.  We also
have databases in use on several hosts.

> Why should we refuse? Lindows.com came to us, not the other way around.

This is an ethical question.  We, since we are affiliated with Free
Software and trying to enforce and distribute this, should, of course,
refuse to accept donations of non-free software.

You may not aware of the discussion we had last year, when VMware
offered to donate five (or another amount, not sure anymore) licenses
of their vmware product to Debian in order to help us develop
boot-floppies.

We *did* refuse to accept it.  Single developers may use this product
on their own and may even receive a donation from VMware Inc., but the
Debian project must not depend on non-free software and should
publically refuse such donations, especially as long as there are free
alternatives (even if they still need to mature).

> Remember, Lindows.com wants to contribute to us. We should accept their
> support with open arms provided they don't try to subvert our
> principles. A web page on a proprietary OS doesn't subvert our
> principles, IMO.

If Debian Conference 2 is an official Debian even, then we now do
depend on non-free, proprietary software, run by a third party, even
if there are free alternatives (like php, perl, python, as well as
developers who would be willing to spend an afternoon on implementing
a registration form).

This is what bugs me, and this is the part with which I have a severe problem.

Regards,

Joey

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Steve Langasek]

On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 03:03:14AM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:30:48PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> > On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 17:54, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:

> > > The thing I want say is: Debian is about free software, IMHO we should
> > > not have such a prominent sponser promoting non-free
> > > software. Especially as we probably don't need it.

> > Jeroen, please calm down.  I admit that while the registration page
> > could have been a bit more tasteful (i.e. less blatant advertising), it
> > would be a very bad idea for us to refuse their sponsorship.  Debian has
> > been accepting donations from proprietary software companies for a long
> > time.  We should thank them for their donation, and continue our work.

> We should not advertise directly or indirectly non-free software. I
> don't say we should refuse their sponsership totally, but if they
> provide hosting on non-free software I think that is a valid reason to
> refuse it. Same goes for the adverising link, actually the URL of the
> debconf 2 registration already advertised lindows.

If you're so upset that Debian would accept sponsorship built on 
non-free software, surely that means you're proficient in developing web 
scripts and you've already begun work on a replacement for the Lindows 
IIS site, yes?  After all, complaining about the deficiencies of the 
present solution without stepping up to provide an alternative is not 
particularly becoming behavior in a Debian developer.

Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Nathan E Norman]

On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 02:51:23AM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:30:21PM -0500, Joe Drew wrote:
> > On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 18:59, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > > The keyword here is "prominent". 
> > 
> > Yes, it is.
> > 
> > > The
> > > Debian servers don't run non-free software provided by HP and/OR
> > > Sun. The debconf2 registration page is hosted on a server with
> > > non-free software and has a link to a website with a non-free product,
> > > that's something different then donating hardware.
> > 
> > You are not quite understanding the level of Lindows.com's involvement.
> > This is not DebConf 2, sponsored by Lindows.com. This is, pure and
> > simple, DebConf 2. The fact that Lindows.com happens to be helping out
> > with it is incidental. They were quite adamant that Lindows.com *not* be
> > given any special treatment or placement - they are helping out with
> > DebConf 2 because it's the right thing to do, because their distribution
> > is based on Debian. We are not prominently featuring Lindows.com - they
> > just happened to be the hosts for our registration page. That's it, end
> > of story.
> 
> Of course it's nice of them that they help, but I still think it's
> wrong that the registration page is hosted on a server with non-free
> software and with a link to a site trying to sell non-free
> products. Certainly because we can make the registration form with
> free software without any links to non-free stuff.

Please end this thread and go back to telling us all how much the
linux kernel sucks.

-- 
Nathan Norman - Micromuse Ltd.  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gil-galad was an Elven-king.|  The Fellowship
Of him the harpers sadly sing:  |of
the last whose realm was fair and free  | the Ring
between the Mountains and the Sea.  |  J.R.R. Tolkien


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joey Hess]

Martin Schulze wrote:
> If I get this right, then registration for the Debian Conference,
> to a conference run by Free Software bigots, goes through heavily
> non-free and proprietary software that we are not even allowed to
> place in our non-free section outside of our distribution.

Received: (qmail 17575 invoked by uid 38); 6 Apr 2002 18:42:59 -
Received: (qmail 16157 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2002 18:42:14 -

Ya know, something just doesn't seem right here. Your rant seems to have
been relayed to this list through a server (with our name on it
nontheless) running nasty non-free software (that is in non-free, but
just barely).

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Chris Lawrence]

On Apr 07, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> It subverts my principles (and probably also others). The fact that
> the company itself is probably also going to distribute non-free
> software also subverts my principles.
> 
> The thing I want say is: Debian is about free software, IMHO we should
> not have such a prominent sponser promoting non-free
> software. Especially as we probably don't need it.

Not to beat this to death, but a large number of Debian packages
contain code that was developed by people who work for companies that
produce non-free software.  Among them:

gs
debconf
alien
kernel-image-*
anything we got from Red Hat (they own Cygnus, which does non-free stuff)
sourceforge
cupsys-*
apache
zope
python*
perl*
xfree86-*

Need I go on?

Yes, it's a shame Lindows.com hosts things on non-free servers.  My
general reaction to that is that if they're dumb enough to run IIS and
pay for it, that's on them, not us.


Chris
-- 
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Colin Walters]

[ Please don't CC me, I read this list ]

On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 20:03, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:

> We should not advertise directly or indirectly non-free software. I
> don't say we should refuse their sponsership totally, but if they
> provide hosting on non-free software I think that is a valid reason to
> refuse it. Same goes for the adverising link, actually the URL of the
> debconf 2 registration already advertised lindows.

I agree with you in general; future Debconf registration forms should be
hosted at debian.org.  But nothing good will come of refusing their
sponsorship at this point.





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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Richard Braakman]

On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 03:03:14AM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> We should not advertise directly or indirectly non-free software.

Er, we _host_ non-free software on our servers, and distribute it via
our mirror network.  If you want to go on a crusade, then there are
targets closer to home.

Richard Braakman


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Jeroen Dekkers]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:30:48PM -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 17:54, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> 
> > The thing I want say is: Debian is about free software, IMHO we should
> > not have such a prominent sponser promoting non-free
> > software. Especially as we probably don't need it.
> 
> Jeroen, please calm down.  I admit that while the registration page
> could have been a bit more tasteful (i.e. less blatant advertising), it
> would be a very bad idea for us to refuse their sponsorship.  Debian has
> been accepting donations from proprietary software companies for a long
> time.  We should thank them for their donation, and continue our work.

We should not advertise directly or indirectly non-free software. I
don't say we should refuse their sponsership totally, but if they
provide hosting on non-free software I think that is a valid reason to
refuse it. Same goes for the adverising link, actually the URL of the
debconf 2 registration already advertised lindows.
 
> It's also probably worth pointing out, as you seem to see yourself as
> "the Dutch RMS"

You should learn to read, I've never said that. I only said that some
people call me like that on IRC.

> that the Free Software Foundation also accepts
> donations from proprietary software companies: 
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/thankgnus/2002supporters.html

But they don't run proprietary software on their server and they don't
advertise the non-free software of those software companies.

Jeroen Dekkers
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IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Jeroen Dekkers]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:30:21PM -0500, Joe Drew wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 18:59, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > The keyword here is "prominent". 
> 
> Yes, it is.
> 
> > The
> > Debian servers don't run non-free software provided by HP and/OR
> > Sun. The debconf2 registration page is hosted on a server with
> > non-free software and has a link to a website with a non-free product,
> > that's something different then donating hardware.
> 
> You are not quite understanding the level of Lindows.com's involvement.
> This is not DebConf 2, sponsored by Lindows.com. This is, pure and
> simple, DebConf 2. The fact that Lindows.com happens to be helping out
> with it is incidental. They were quite adamant that Lindows.com *not* be
> given any special treatment or placement - they are helping out with
> DebConf 2 because it's the right thing to do, because their distribution
> is based on Debian. We are not prominently featuring Lindows.com - they
> just happened to be the hosts for our registration page. That's it, end
> of story.

Of course it's nice of them that they help, but I still think it's
wrong that the registration page is hosted on a server with non-free
software and with a link to a site trying to sell non-free
products. Certainly because we can make the registration form with
free software without any links to non-free stuff.

Jeroen Dekkers
-- 
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Colin Walters]

On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 17:54, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:

> The thing I want say is: Debian is about free software, IMHO we should
> not have such a prominent sponser promoting non-free
> software. Especially as we probably don't need it.

Jeroen, please calm down.  I admit that while the registration page
could have been a bit more tasteful (i.e. less blatant advertising), it
would be a very bad idea for us to refuse their sponsorship.  Debian has
been accepting donations from proprietary software companies for a long
time.  We should thank them for their donation, and continue our work.

It's also probably worth pointing out, as you seem to see yourself as
"the Dutch RMS", that the Free Software Foundation also accepts
donations from proprietary software companies: 

http://www.gnu.org/thankgnus/2002supporters.html


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joe Drew]

On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 18:59, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> The keyword here is "prominent". 

Yes, it is.

> The
> Debian servers don't run non-free software provided by HP and/OR
> Sun. The debconf2 registration page is hosted on a server with
> non-free software and has a link to a website with a non-free product,
> that's something different then donating hardware.

You are not quite understanding the level of Lindows.com's involvement.
This is not DebConf 2, sponsored by Lindows.com. This is, pure and
simple, DebConf 2. The fact that Lindows.com happens to be helping out
with it is incidental. They were quite adamant that Lindows.com *not* be
given any special treatment or placement - they are helping out with
DebConf 2 because it's the right thing to do, because their distribution
is based on Debian. We are not prominently featuring Lindows.com - they
just happened to be the hosts for our registration page. That's it, end
of story.

If it's not acceptable for proprietary software companies to donate
time, effort, and money to our ventures, then we're in for a shock when
we eliminate all the donated Debian servers and mirrors which happen to
be hosted or paid for by proprietary vendors.

-- 
Joe Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Please encrypt email sent to me.


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Jeroen Dekkers]

On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:17:46AM +0100, Thom May wrote:
> * Jeroen Dekkers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote :
> > 
> > It subverts my principles (and probably also others). The fact that
> > the company itself is probably also going to distribute non-free
> > software also subverts my principles.
> > 
> > The thing I want say is: Debian is about free software, IMHO we should
> > not have such a prominent sponser promoting non-free
> > software. Especially as we probably don't need it.
> > 
> Congratulations. Stunning move. Please, go tell Sun, HP, and all the other
> companies who've provided us with hardware and bandwidth and who happen to
> make non-free software we don't need their help.
> Perhaps you'll be kind enough to donate a replacement for
> ftp-master.debian.org, www.debian.org, and everything else affected by this
> decision.

The keyword here is "prominent". I don't see any direct relation with
the Debian servers and HP, Sun, etc. I don't see a link on the
debian.org page pointing to Sun's or HP's new non-free product and
saying that it's copyright by HP/Sun and all rights are reserved. The
Debian servers don't run non-free software provided by HP and/OR
Sun. The debconf2 registration page is hosted on a server with
non-free software and has a link to a website with a non-free product,
that's something different then donating hardware.

Jeroen Dekkers
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Thom May]

* Jeroen Dekkers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote :
> 
> It subverts my principles (and probably also others). The fact that
> the company itself is probably also going to distribute non-free
> software also subverts my principles.
> 
> The thing I want say is: Debian is about free software, IMHO we should
> not have such a prominent sponser promoting non-free
> software. Especially as we probably don't need it.
> 
Congratulations. Stunning move. Please, go tell Sun, HP, and all the other
companies who've provided us with hardware and bandwidth and who happen to
make non-free software we don't need their help.
Perhaps you'll be kind enough to donate a replacement for
ftp-master.debian.org, www.debian.org, and everything else affected by this
decision.
Cheers,
-Thom


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Michael Banck]

On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:54:32AM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > Why should we refuse? Lindows.com came to us, not the other way around.
> 
> Because it's a proprietary software company?

Hey, I heard that some of our machines got donated by
proprietary software/hardware companies! So lets cut off auric this
evening, OK?

> The thing I want say is: Debian is about free software, IMHO we should
> not have such a prominent sponser promoting non-free
> software. Especially as we probably don't need it.

Cool, what's your international bank account number?

Michael

-- 
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the Debian Project anyway... >;-)"
-- Branden Robinson


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Jeroen Dekkers]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:25:10PM -0500, Joe Drew wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 15:09, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > > I don't *like* the registration page being hosted on IIS. But I prefer a
> > > registration page to no registration page at all.
> > 
> > Is it that difficult to make a registration page with free software?
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, no. But I didn't have time to learn how and
> do it, and Lindows.com decided that they wanted to pay one of their
> engineers to do it. It's quite simple: nobody else did it, so I took
> Lindows.com up on their offer.
  
> > Also, the form itself isn't free:
> > (C) 2002 Lindows.com, Inc.  All Rights Reserved.
> 
> Why is this a problem?

It's just the fact that is non-free. It doesn't have to be a problem,
it should just be free IMHO. There is no reason not to make it free,
and I see at least one reason to have it free: We could use the
registration form for debconf 3. 

> > So if microsoft starts spending real money on debconf 3, we all have
> > to start supporting them? 
> 
> This is almost a new case for Goodwin's law. But by "Support" I meant
> more along the lines of "thank"; I chose words wrongly.

That's right, you can thank people if they give something to you.
 
> > Sorry, I think this is ridiculous. Does
> > debconf really need money from a proprietary software company? 
> 
> Why should we refuse? Lindows.com came to us, not the other way around.

Because it's a proprietary software company?
 
> I think people are all getting way too upset about this. My main
> priority in everything I've said is twofold:
> 1) Give credit where credit is due, i.e. Lindows.com;
> 2) Keep Lindows.com from getting flamed by a bunch of people who didn't
> bother to do anything for Debconf, but think they can dictate how others
> will help anyways.
> 
> This doesn't mean I don't want discussion on it, but it DOES mean that I
> want to make it perfectly clear that it is very counterproductive for
> anybody to mail lindows.com with non-constructive criticism. Saying
> "Hey, I see you hosted the Debconf registration form - Thanks! But, it
> seems sort of strange that it's hosted on IIS. Why is this?" is one
> thing. Saying "Debian has no use for you and your proprietary page,
> lamers. Go to hell, proprietary software vendor!" is another entirely. I
> want to keep the Lindows.com <-> Debian relationship friendly and happy,
> just as they have strived to do.

We can also say in a friendly way that we don't want to have anything
to do with non-free software IMHO.

> Remember, Lindows.com wants to contribute to us. We should accept their
> support with open arms provided they don't try to subvert our
> principles. A web page on a proprietary OS doesn't subvert our
> principles, IMO.

It subverts my principles (and probably also others). The fact that
the company itself is probably also going to distribute non-free
software also subverts my principles.

The thing I want say is: Debian is about free software, IMHO we should
not have such a prominent sponser promoting non-free
software. Especially as we probably don't need it.

Jeroen Dekkers
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joe Drew]

On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 15:09, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > I don't *like* the registration page being hosted on IIS. But I prefer a
> > registration page to no registration page at all.
> 
> Is it that difficult to make a registration page with free software?

To the best of my knowledge, no. But I didn't have time to learn how and
do it, and Lindows.com decided that they wanted to pay one of their
engineers to do it. It's quite simple: nobody else did it, so I took
Lindows.com up on their offer.
 
> Also, the form itself isn't free:
> (C) 2002 Lindows.com, Inc.  All Rights Reserved.

Why is this a problem?

> So if microsoft starts spending real money on debconf 3, we all have
> to start supporting them? 

This is almost a new case for Goodwin's law. But by "Support" I meant
more along the lines of "thank"; I chose words wrongly.

> Sorry, I think this is ridiculous. Does
> debconf really need money from a proprietary software company? 

Why should we refuse? Lindows.com came to us, not the other way around.

I think people are all getting way too upset about this. My main
priority in everything I've said is twofold:
1) Give credit where credit is due, i.e. Lindows.com;
2) Keep Lindows.com from getting flamed by a bunch of people who didn't
bother to do anything for Debconf, but think they can dictate how others
will help anyways.

This doesn't mean I don't want discussion on it, but it DOES mean that I
want to make it perfectly clear that it is very counterproductive for
anybody to mail lindows.com with non-constructive criticism. Saying
"Hey, I see you hosted the Debconf registration form - Thanks! But, it
seems sort of strange that it's hosted on IIS. Why is this?" is one
thing. Saying "Debian has no use for you and your proprietary page,
lamers. Go to hell, proprietary software vendor!" is another entirely. I
want to keep the Lindows.com <-> Debian relationship friendly and happy,
just as they have strived to do.

Remember, Lindows.com wants to contribute to us. We should accept their
support with open arms provided they don't try to subvert our
principles. A web page on a proprietary OS doesn't subvert our
principles, IMO.

-- 
Joe Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joe Drew]

On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 15:03, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Joe Drew wrote:
> > Let me re-iterate this for people who might not have gotten the message:
> > 
> > LINDOWS.COM HAS SPENT REAL MONEY ON DEBCONF 2 AND DESERVES SUPPORT, NOT
> > SCORN.
> 
> While I don't want to squeze lindows support, I have to interpret
> this statement like "Joey, shut up!  Somebody has spent real money
> on Debconf and supporting it on non-free stuff, including license
> fees to a well-known Redmond based company, they deserve support
> for it".  Well, it doesn't make me feel better, I have to admit.

No. This is directed at the people who would mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
mesages like "Go home proprietary l0s0rz! j00 are l4m3! Debian doesn't
need you! Signed, [EMAIL PROTECTED]"

Sorry if it seemed that way, Joey.

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Michael Banck]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 08:39:21PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> I'm somewhat puzzled:
> 
> Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0

> Form submission goes to:
> Submit to http://net2.com/_vti_bin/shtml.dll/debconf2/index.html
> 
> If I get this right, then registration for the Debian Conference,
> to a conference run by Free Software bigots, goes through heavily
> non-free and proprietary software that we are not even allowed to
> place in our non-free section outside of our distribution.
> 
> I'd be glad if somebody could prove me wrong

I can't prove you wrong, but perhaps you could talk to some wine people?
AFAIK Lindows also sponsored wineconf, so perhaps they have already
tackled that problem?

Apart from that, Lindows seems to cooperate with the Wine project
nicely. Sure, they have a root account without a password (from what
I've heard), but I don't think they gonna shoot us once we're all
inside... :)

Michael, too far away from Canada :(


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Martin Schulze]

Joe Drew wrote:
> Let me re-iterate this for people who might not have gotten the message:
> 
> LINDOWS.COM HAS SPENT REAL MONEY ON DEBCONF 2 AND DESERVES SUPPORT, NOT
> SCORN.

While I don't want to squeze lindows support, I have to interpret
this statement like "Joey, shut up!  Somebody has spent real money
on Debconf and supporting it on non-free stuff, including license
fees to a well-known Redmond based company, they deserve support
for it".  Well, it doesn't make me feel better, I have to admit.

Even more puzzled,

Joey

-- 
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Martin Schulze]

Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 08:39:21PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > Submit to http://net2.com/_vti_bin/shtml.dll/debconf2/index.html
> > 
> > If I get this right, then registration for the Debian Conference,
> > to a conference run by Free Software bigots, goes through heavily
> > non-free and proprietary software that we are not even allowed to
> > place in our non-free section outside of our distribution.
> 
> I hope you're not implying this is a "showstopper" bug for the conference?

I wasn't implying anything, only wondering.  However, now I'm depressed
and will check if I should better do some off-line work for tonight.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
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-- Andrew S. Tanenbaum

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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Jeroen Dekkers]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 02:02:08PM -0500, Joe Drew wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 13:39, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > Form submission goes to:
> > Submit to http://net2.com/_vti_bin/shtml.dll/debconf2/index.html
> > 
> > If I get this right, then registration for the Debian Conference,
> > to a conference run by Free Software bigots, goes through heavily
> > non-free and proprietary software that we are not even allowed to
> > place in our non-free section outside of our distribution.
> 
> I saw this too, and was a bit unnerved, but might I direct you to the
> first thing I said: "Thanks go to Lindows.com for hosting the web page
> and all their gracious help." Lindows.com have spent real money on
> Debconf already, in bandwidth and server costs, and also in the engineer
> costs for the back-and-forth that went on getting that page to have the
> information I needed. For all the offers of support I got, Lindows.com
> is the only one who actually followed through.
> 
> I don't *like* the registration page being hosted on IIS. But I prefer a
> registration page to no registration page at all.

Is it that difficult to make a registration page with free software?

Also, the form itself isn't free:
(C) 2002 Lindows.com, Inc.  All Rights Reserved.

> Let me re-iterate this for people who might not have gotten the message:
> 
> LINDOWS.COM HAS SPENT REAL MONEY ON DEBCONF 2 AND DESERVES SUPPORT, NOT
> SCORN.

You don't have to shout.

So if microsoft starts spending real money on debconf 3, we all have
to start supporting them? Sorry, I think this is ridiculous. Does
debconf really need money from a proprietary software company? Why
does Debian promote of non-free software (indirectly)? I thought
Debian was about free software.

Jeroen Dekkers
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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Josip Rodin]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 08:39:21PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Submit to http://net2.com/_vti_bin/shtml.dll/debconf2/index.html
> 
> If I get this right, then registration for the Debian Conference,
> to a conference run by Free Software bigots, goes through heavily
> non-free and proprietary software that we are not even allowed to
> place in our non-free section outside of our distribution.

I hope you're not implying this is a "showstopper" bug for the conference?

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Sean 'Shaleh' Perry]

> 
> It'd be a very, very bad idea for anybody to start doing or saying
> anything non-constructive to Lindows.com. They as a company, and every
> person I've dealt with through Lindows.com, employee or otherwise, have
> been nothing but corteous and helpful, and have helped make Debconf 2 a
> possibility.
> 

if only I could afford to be in Toronto this summer.


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Joe Drew]

On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 13:39, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Joe Drew wrote:
> > The 2nd Annual Debian Conference registration page is now available at
> > http://lindows.com/debconf2 . Thanks go to Lindows.com for hosting the
> > web page and all their gracious help.
>
> [...] queso reports
> a non-free operating system:
> 
> luonnotar!joey(ttyp2):~> sudo queso lindows.com
> 130.94.123.205:80   * Reliant Unix from Siemens-Nixdorf

I doubt very much that this is accurate. It's likely a router or some
firewall rules that are confusing queso. (Who actually uses "Reliant
Unix" on a public host anyays?)

> Form submission goes to:
> Submit to http://net2.com/_vti_bin/shtml.dll/debconf2/index.html
> 
> If I get this right, then registration for the Debian Conference,
> to a conference run by Free Software bigots, goes through heavily
> non-free and proprietary software that we are not even allowed to
> place in our non-free section outside of our distribution.

I saw this too, and was a bit unnerved, but might I direct you to the
first thing I said: "Thanks go to Lindows.com for hosting the web page
and all their gracious help." Lindows.com have spent real money on
Debconf already, in bandwidth and server costs, and also in the engineer
costs for the back-and-forth that went on getting that page to have the
information I needed. For all the offers of support I got, Lindows.com
is the only one who actually followed through.

I don't *like* the registration page being hosted on IIS. But I prefer a
registration page to no registration page at all.

Let me re-iterate this for people who might not have gotten the message:

LINDOWS.COM HAS SPENT REAL MONEY ON DEBCONF 2 AND DESERVES SUPPORT, NOT
SCORN.

It'd be a very, very bad idea for anybody to start doing or saying
anything non-constructive to Lindows.com. They as a company, and every
person I've dealt with through Lindows.com, employee or otherwise, have
been nothing but corteous and helpful, and have helped make Debconf 2 a
possibility.

-- 
Joe Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Please encrypt email sent to me.


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Re: Debian Conference 2 Registration

[Martin Schulze]

Joe Drew wrote:
> The 2nd Annual Debian Conference registration page is now available at
> http://lindows.com/debconf2 . Thanks go to Lindows.com for hosting the
> web page and all their gracious help.

I'm somewhat puzzled:

luonnotar!joey(ttyp2):~> HEAD lindows.com
200 OK
Connection: close
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 18:32:19 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.20 (Unix) PHP/4.0.6 mod_ssl/2.8.4 OpenSSL/0.9.6b
Content-Type: text/html
Client-Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 18:32:59 GMT
Client-Response-Num: 1
X-Powered-By: PHP/4.0.6

lindows.com runs free software, which is fine.  However queso reports
a non-free operating system:

luonnotar!joey(ttyp2):~> sudo queso lindows.com
130.94.123.205:80   * Reliant Unix from Siemens-Nixdorf

However, trying to reach that page, I'm redirected as shown below:

luonnotar!joey(ttyp2):~> telnet lindows.com http
Trying 130.94.123.205...
Connected to 130.94.123.205.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET http://lindows.com/debconf2/ HTTP/1.0

HTTP/1.1 302 Found
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 18:34:38 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.20 (Unix) PHP/4.0.6 mod_ssl/2.8.4 OpenSSL/0.9.6b
Location: http://net2.com/debconf2/
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

That host, net2.com, doesn't look promising like the first one:

luonnotar!joey(ttyp2):~> HEAD http://net2.com/
200 OK
Connection: close
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 19:20:18 GMT
Accept-Ranges: bytes
ETag: "60e089ffba81c01:6139"
Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0
Content-Length: 405
Content-Location: http://net2.com/Default.htm
Content-Type: text/html
Last-Modified: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:56:11 GMT
Client-Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 18:36:03 GMT
Client-Response-Num: 1

luonnotar!joey(ttyp2):~> sudo queso net2.com
64.45.57.181:80 * Cisco 11.2(10a), HP/3000 DTC, BayStack Switch

Form submission goes to:
Submit to http://net2.com/_vti_bin/shtml.dll/debconf2/index.html

If I get this right, then registration for the Debian Conference,
to a conference run by Free Software bigots, goes through heavily
non-free and proprietary software that we are not even allowed to
place in our non-free section outside of our distribution.

I'd be glad if somebody could prove me wrong

Regards,

Joey

-- 
The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
-- Andrew S. Tanenbaum

Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.


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