Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Wed, Jul 02, 2014 at 12:04:46AM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: I don't think so. I think it encourages to be more easy going, and have fun, but never mind. Let's keep Debian boring^W^Wportland weird. :) Would you feel the same if someone were to, say, upload a hurd-must-die package? Kind regards, David -- /) David Weinehall t...@debian.org /) Rime on my window (\ // ~ // Diamond-white roses of fire // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Beautiful hoar-frost (/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140703150112.gb16...@hirohito.acc.umu.se
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Thu, Jul 03, 2014 at 05:01:13PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote: On Wed, Jul 02, 2014 at 12:04:46AM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: I don't think so. I think it encourages to be more easy going, and have fun, but never mind. Let's keep Debian boring^W^Wportland weird. :) Would you feel the same if someone were to, say, upload a hurd-must-die package? I just filed a bug with Policy on if this is a valid use of the Conflicts relation (#753608). Please don't bring this thread on that bug. The policy people have to put up with enough headache :) Can we get back to work now? Thanks, Paul -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org | Proud Debian Developer : :' : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~paultag `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Hi, Clint Adams: If you're going for non-boring entertainment value, have you considered i-am-a-kneejerk-idiot-[...] Please adhere to the Code of Conduct. -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Wed, Jul 02, 2014 at 01:10:51AM +, Clint Adams wrote: On Wed, Jul 02, 2014 at 01:53:06AM +0100, Wookey wrote: But OK. I get it - this is still too contentious to have any room for this sort of foolishness and if it's to exist at all it'll have to be called something boring. That's a little sad, but we'll all survive. This isn't supposed to be a big deal, just a small convenience. If you're going for non-boring entertainment value, have you considered i-am-a-... Clint, that's not helping the situation, either. -- http://www.cafepress.com/trunktees -- geeky funny T-shirts http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ -- GTD for hackers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140702070606.ga29...@exolobe1.liw.fi
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Wed, Jul 02, 2014 at 01:53:06AM +0100, Wookey wrote: But OK. I get it - this is still too contentious to have any room for this sort of foolishness and if it's to exist at all it'll have to be called something boring. That's a little sad, but we'll all survive. This isn't supposed to be a big deal, just a small convenience. Thanks a lot, Wookey! -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 08:15, Stefano Rivera wrote: Hi Matthias (2014.06.26_08:38:09_+0200) Of these, roughly 20% have switched to systemd. And they apparently did not and do not have any problem with it, otherwise we'd hear about it. Here and other places. Quite loudly. Not necessarily. My laptop won't boot with systemd, although other machines I have will. I haven't filed a bug, because I haven't had the time to sit down and learn how to debug systemd booting, and I wouldn't want to file an bug until I know what's going on... Still - this is just anecdotic evidence that doesn't deviate from normal modus operandi of Debian packaging (e.g. most software has bugs). I think that what Matthias wanted to say is there is no massive breakage among users who has switched to systemd (and not that systemd is 100% bug free). O. -- Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1404212503.29526.136479005.56414...@webmail.messagingengine.com
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Tue, 2014-07-01 at 13:01, Ondřej Surý wrote: On Tue, Jul 1, 2014, at 08:15, Stefano Rivera wrote: Hi Matthias (2014.06.26_08:38:09_+0200) Of these, roughly 20% have switched to systemd. And they apparently did not and do not have any problem with it, otherwise we'd hear about it. Here and other places. Quite loudly. Not necessarily. My laptop won't boot with systemd, although other machines I have will. I haven't filed a bug, because I haven't had the time to sit down and learn how to debug systemd booting, and I wouldn't want to file an bug until I know what's going on... Still - this is just anecdotic evidence that doesn't deviate from normal modus operandi of Debian packaging (e.g. most software has bugs). I think that what Matthias wanted to say is there is no massive breakage among users who has switched to systemd (and not that systemd is 100% bug free). I switched to systemd on Asus transformer tf101 (ARM 32-bit) about one year ago without any problem, and that device is not officially supported by Debian nor it is tested. And I've built hackish 3.1.10 kernel for it and I have a lot of problem with that device but none is related to systemd. So, saying that the systemd is problematic does not 'keeping the water' IMHO. It has bugs for sure but is there any non simple software without bugs. I suspect. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014070719.ga9...@arvanta.net
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/30/2014 05:43 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:27:49AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:42:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Thomas Goirand +1 for keeping the name which is funny What's funny about an OS stating publicly that a specific piece of Free software---shipped and installed by default by that very same OS---must die? Well, the package kills any instance of systemd in the system. So, it's the package that is stating publicly that systemd must die, which is effectively what does the systemd-must-die package. It's absolutely not the OS, or Debian that is doing this kind of statement. Is everyone seeing evil everywhere each time there's the word systemd mentioned, whatever the context? If people don't have humor, or may be offended, then let's not use that name, but I don't think it helps. If anything, it encourages people to *make* fun of such an OS. I don't think so. I think it encourages to be more easy going, and have fun, but never mind. Let's keep Debian boring^W^Wportland weird. :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53b2dc1e.4010...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Wed, 02 Jul 2014, Thomas Goirand wrote: I don't think so. I think it encourages to be more easy going, and have fun, but never mind. Let's keep Debian boring^W^Wportland weird. :) +1 Fun is missing, humour even more. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140701223847.gi19...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
+1 :) On Jul 1, 2014 6:39 PM, Norbert Preining prein...@logic.at wrote: On Wed, 02 Jul 2014, Thomas Goirand wrote: I don't think so. I think it encourages to be more easy going, and have fun, but never mind. Let's keep Debian boring^W^Wportland weird. :) +1 Fun is missing, humour even more. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140701223847.gi19...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
+++ Stefano Zacchiroli [2014-06-30 11:43 +0200]: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:27:49AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:42:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Thomas Goirand +1 for keeping the name which is funny What's funny about an OS stating publicly that a specific piece of Free software---shipped and installed by default by that very same OS---must die? Every package name in debian is not a 'statement of the OS' as a whole. Each one is just a package name, most of which are vaguely descriptive, some are punny, many rather cryptic. None that I can think of are a 'statement'. The systemd people won the argument. Giving those who prefer not to use it (yet) a slightly childish package to install is a small consolation for them and really shouldn't be taken very seriously. I'm afraid the name amused me - and I assume I'm not the only one. But OK. I get it - this is still too contentious to have any room for this sort of foolishness and if it's to exist at all it'll have to be called something boring. That's a little sad, but we'll all survive. This isn't supposed to be a big deal, just a small convenience. Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM http://wookware.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140702005305.gt10...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Wed, Jul 02, 2014 at 01:53:06AM +0100, Wookey wrote: But OK. I get it - this is still too contentious to have any room for this sort of foolishness and if it's to exist at all it'll have to be called something boring. That's a little sad, but we'll all survive. This isn't supposed to be a big deal, just a small convenience. If you're going for non-boring entertainment value, have you considered i-am-a-kneejerk-idiot-who-neither-knows-how-to- competently-prevent-packages-from-being-installed-on-my- system-nor-understands-what-any-of-said-packages-actually-do? That seems like a better idea. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140702011051.ga16...@scru.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Wookey woo...@wookware.org wrote: +++ Stefano Zacchiroli [2014-06-30 11:43 +0200]: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:27:49AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:42:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Thomas Goirand +1 for keeping the name which is funny What's funny about an OS stating publicly that a specific piece of Free software---shipped and installed by default by that very same OS---must die? Every package name in debian is not a 'statement of the OS' as a whole. Each one is just a package name, most of which are vaguely descriptive, some are punny, many rather cryptic. None that I can think of are a 'statement'. The systemd people won the argument. Giving those who prefer not to use it (yet) a slightly childish package to install is a small consolation for them and really shouldn't be taken very seriously. I'm afraid the name amused me - and I assume I'm not the only one. But OK. I get it - this is still too contentious to have any room for this sort of foolishness and if it's to exist at all it'll have to be called something boring. That's a little sad, but we'll all survive. This isn't supposed to be a big deal, just a small convenience. For the sake of fun, let's go ahead and upload packages with provocative names. That's sure to foster goodwill between the pro- and anti-systemd camps within Debian, right? Sorry to be a spoilsport here, but I'll take boring any day of the week if the potential alternative is another heated discussion that'll eventually devolve into mudslinging or general unpleasantness. Regards, Vincent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CACZd_tA1sECx=KXp7jcJu1ySBag9j2mkDHydx7DnkY4L=gd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
]] Thomas Goirand +1 for keeping the name which is funny No, it's not. It's offensive to those of us who spend time on making systemd integration in Debian be as good as possible. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87zjgurdpa.fsf...@xoog.err.no
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:42:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Thomas Goirand +1 for keeping the name which is funny No, it's not. It's offensive to those of us who spend time on making systemd integration in Debian be as good as possible. It's also offensive to those who think it's possible to work constructively together even when disagreeing on some things, and who would like to see a welcoming atmosphere in Debian. The attitude expressed in the systemd-must-die package name is bad for Debian, whether you're for or against or neutral about systemd. When a project the size of Debian makes a decision on a controversial subject, it is natural, and expected, that there is vigorous debate about the topic before a decision is reached. After that, however, if the debate continues, or members of Debian keep trying to fight the decision, or keep bringing it up over and over again, it hurts the ability of the project to continue working. If every decision we make needs to be re-discussed at the whim of any one disgruntled individual for years to come, nobody's going to have fun. -- http://www.cafepress.com/trunktees -- geeky funny T-shirts http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ -- GTD for hackers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140630092749.gf5...@mavolio.codethink.co.uk
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:27:49AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:42:09AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Thomas Goirand +1 for keeping the name which is funny What's funny about an OS stating publicly that a specific piece of Free software---shipped and installed by default by that very same OS---must die? If anything, it encourages people to *make* fun of such an OS. It's also offensive to those who think it's possible to work constructively together even when disagreeing on some things, and who would like to see a welcoming atmosphere in Debian. The attitude expressed in the systemd-must-die package name is bad for Debian, whether you're for or against or neutral about systemd. When a project the size of Debian makes a decision on a controversial subject, it is natural, and expected, that there is vigorous debate about the topic before a decision is reached. After that, however, if the debate continues, or members of Debian keep trying to fight the decision, or keep bringing it up over and over again, it hurts the ability of the project to continue working. If every decision we make needs to be re-discussed at the whim of any one disgruntled individual for years to come, nobody's going to have fun. +1 Amen AOL Bravo (etc.) -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Le vendredi, 27 juin 2014, 23.02:51 Thomas Goirand a écrit : On 06/27/2014 06:31 PM, Michael Englehorn wrote: Wouldn't glibc then fall into the list of things you don't like as a required framework? By that logic, all libraries must be hot-swappable with no additional effort by the end-user. That's just not realistic. -Michael Are you aware that we're switching away from eglibc? Just saying... Are you aware that we never had both glibc and eglibc simultaneously available in a suite? Just saying… OdyX -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2568562.DDxbkL30vz@gyllingar
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Le jeudi 26 juin 2014 à 15:58 +0100, Alastair McKinstry a écrit : On 26/06/2014 15:33, Marco d'Itri wrote: A few people said this about udev as well. Now they use udev. ... and complain or suffer in silence. Don't take popcon as a measure of people being happy to use a critical dependency like udev. I don’t want PHP installed on any of my systems. I agree with almost everything that’s written there: http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ Yet there is no realistic way to have a usable asset manager, a decent blog engine, an LDAP administration tool or a free webmail without PHP¹. I “suffer in silence”, as you said. But since I’m not bothering to write, myself, a replacement for this working PHP software that I need, I am not entitled to complain. The handful of systemd-hating morons, on the other hand, have been complaining for months without ever proposing to do anything to improve the situation from your point of view. Simon, Marco, and others have explained in detail what you need to do if you want to change that. When you have done the work, and when someone refuses to integrate your work, then you’ll be entitled to complain. Until that happens, the only thing that you are entitled to is suffer in *silence*. [1] If, when reading that, you want to suggest alternatives, feel free to do so by private mail as this is irrelevant to the discussion, and be aware that I have probably tried them already. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1403850565.16103.12.ca...@kagura.malsain.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Russ Allbery wrote: Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org writes: Yes, I fully agree. But _please_ also realise that there are people, a non-neglibile number of them, for whom these frameworks are not an improvement, and who wish to be not forced to use them. That's fine for you to feel that way, but that feeling does not obligate anyone else to do work, nor does it obligate upstreams who see code and I think it *does* morally obligate them to at least try. conceptual simplification benefits for dropping non-logind approaches to maintain support they don't like. If you want to be able to avoid new frameworks that the general community of Linux developers feel materially AFAIHH (correct me if I'm wrong) the head Linux developer himself is not all that fond of the Poettering/Sievers duo. My family had a Betamax VCR. The format was arguably much better than VHS. It didn't get support, maintaining both formats wasn't viable, and it died. We bought a VHS VCR. Yeah, my father complains about that too, a lot. But this is precisely why we're in an OSS movement here. We can change this, and we should, so that the other solutions do *not* die out. We should *not* accept the might of the others all do this! bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/lojbns$eb9$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 26/06/2014 17:43, Paul Wise wrote: On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:58 PM, Alastair McKinstry wrote: udev itself is disabled in scripts as it keeps crashing on my hardware. (Old powerpc server). Which bug number is this? This is a bug that I _think_ (following the lists) has since been fixed upstream, but I am reluctant to test on an operational server with unusual hardware. In practice for my use case I can just ignore it; there are few event changes on the system and I can live with just disabling udev , killing it on reboot, but I can't remove it from the system as there are dependencies in other code on it. I will test again when updating to jessie, but until then I prefer to leave the server alone. udev has not really been a problem for me. My concern was using popcon as a measure of success of a package when its required dependency and lack of realistic alternatives is the crux of the argument. My fear is that systemd + friends are becoming a required framework, subverting the Unix ethos of a bunch of co-operating tools and libraries. It becomes increasing impossible to simply replace a component I might disagree with, or that breaks my use case, with one I develop because of all the cross-dependencies. While if you disagree, write a replacement is the traditional answer in Linux/Debian, we need to look out and make sure that remains possible. regards Alastair -- Alastair McKinstry, alast...@sceal.ie, mckins...@debian.org, https://diaspora.sceal.ie/u/amckinstry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ad3255.4050...@sceal.ie
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 2014-06-27, Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org wrote: But this is precisely why we're in an OSS movement here. We can change this, and we should, so that the other solutions do *not* die out. We should *not* accept the might of the others all do this! The way is to put your time/money where your mouth is and provide the code. Asking others to do all the work is not the way forward in OSS. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/lojcqb$trp$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Before this part of the thread dies out, can anybody comment on this, Simon, Ansgar, Jean-Christophe, ...? On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 16:32 +0200, Svante Signell wrote: On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 13:53 +0100, Simon McVittie wrote: On 26/06/14 13:33, Svante Signell wrote: Of course with the additional check that the students are logged in to that box locally, did I forget to mention that? ... or something involving utmp/wtmp/other traditions. utmp(5) says many system programs (foolishly) depend on its integrity so be very careful with security implications if you go that way. I wouldn't want anything relying on utmp for its security on my systems. Maybe I'm naive but doesn't utmp(5) solve this problem? who(1) tells me in clear-text if I'm logged in locally or remote: Here Are there serious security problems with ancient utmp that cannot be solved? And here. Even systemd use utmp: man -k utmp shows: systemd-update-utmp (8) - Write audit and utmp updates at runlevel changes and shutdown systemd-update-utmp-runlevel.service (8) - Write audit and utmp updates at runlevel changes and shutdown systemd-update-utmp-shutdown.service (8) - Write audit and utmp updates at runlevel changes and shutdown And utmp is universal unix, not something linux-specific (which systemd is) Controlling who is allowed to shutdown a computer is not that difficult in *nix*, without systemd: create a shutdown group and parse /var/run/utmp, or?? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1403862797.12686.11.ca...@g3620.my.own.domain
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 6/27/2014 3:59 AM, Alastair McKinstry wrote: On 26/06/2014 17:43, Paul Wise wrote: On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:58 PM, Alastair McKinstry wrote: udev itself is disabled in scripts as it keeps crashing on my hardware. (Old powerpc server). Which bug number is this? This is a bug that I _think_ (following the lists) has since been fixed upstream, but I am reluctant to test on an operational server with unusual hardware. In practice for my use case I can just ignore it; there are few event changes on the system and I can live with just disabling udev , killing it on reboot, but I can't remove it from the system as there are dependencies in other code on it. I will test again when updating to jessie, but until then I prefer to leave the server alone. udev has not really been a problem for me. My concern was using popcon as a measure of success of a package when its required dependency and lack of realistic alternatives is the crux of the argument. My fear is that systemd + friends are becoming a required framework, subverting the Unix ethos of a bunch of co-operating tools and libraries. It becomes increasing impossible to simply replace a component I might disagree with, or that breaks my use case, with one I develop because of all the cross-dependencies. While if you disagree, write a replacement is the traditional answer in Linux/Debian, we need to look out and make sure that remains possible. regards Alastair Wouldn't glibc then fall into the list of things you don't like as a required framework? By that logic, all libraries must be hot-swappable with no additional effort by the end-user. That's just not realistic. -Michael signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Sune Vuorela wrote: The way is to put your time/money where your mouth is and provide the code. Asking others to do all the work is not the way forward in OSS. I highly doubt you can call _me_ someone who does not do work in OSS. You know, methods to clone a human being, time turners, etc. have not been invented yet. I'd like to think I'm doing enough considering that I also have a dayjob. That being said: people have different experiences in different areas. So, yes, it's a give-and-take, and I can fully well expect other people to do my work (in areas I have less experience in) just as I do other peoples' work in areas I'm good in. Some OSS advocates say it's OSS, just do it yourself. This is a harmful attitude and has turned away people often enough. Luckily, these are getting less and less. Do not become one of them, please. I do appreciate your work in Debian. bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/lojhs3$m8g$2...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
My fear is that systemd + friends are becoming a required framework, subverting the Unix ethos of a bunch of co-operating tools and libraries. It becomes increasing impossible to simply replace a component I might disagree with, or that breaks my use case, with one I develop because of all the cross-dependencies. While if you disagree, write a replacement is the traditional answer in Linux/Debian, we need to look out and make sure that remains possible. regards Alastair Wouldn't glibc then fall into the list of things you don't like as a required framework? By that logic, all libraries must be hot-swappable with no additional effort by the end-user. That's just not realistic. -Michael A good example, but even in the case of key components like the kernel and libc, we've got drop-in replacements in Debian. This is in large part because there were well-defined APIs, dating to a project that (practically) predates Debian: POSIX. glibc basically implements POSIX + adds some functionality; creating a drop-in is/was possible as shown by BSD, eglibc, etc. Now Poettering (and others) has been dismissive of POSIX and sets out to effectively replace it with something more modern; arguably a good thing to do on technical grounds but changing the ground rules or assumptions we're used to. Another example is the shutdown/policykit discussion elsewhere in this thread. It looks like the functionality it offers is a good enhancement, but it pulls in the whole of systemd in practice, bringing along the baggage of 'no separate /usr', etc. design choices that I might disagree with. It _should_ be possible to write a libpolicykit-alt that provides a policykit API ( or dbus interface? i'm unfamiliar with how processes call policykit) but offers a possibly degraded functionality on systems where policykit is not present. But here i'm chasing systemd's taillights. I think that for fundamental changes such as systemd are implementing we need somehow to carefully write out an API such that it remains possible to do such things. We need to recognise that systemd is a major change, crossing a line compared to a usual package or set of packages (even big ones like KDE, GNOME) and apply a larger design process of some kind in Debian to enable us to make changes in the future. -- Alastair McKinstry, alast...@sceal.ie, mckins...@debian.org, https://diaspora.sceal.ie/u/amckinstry A decent provision for the poor is the true test of civilization. ~Samuel Johnson, Boswell: Life of Johnson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ad4f1b.6040...@sceal.ie
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 27/06/14 10:53, Svante Signell wrote: Before this part of the thread dies out, can anybody comment on this, Simon, Ansgar, Jean-Christophe, ...? On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 16:32 +0200, Svante Signell wrote: Maybe I'm naive but doesn't utmp(5) solve this problem? who(1) tells me in clear-text if I'm logged in locally or remote: Are there serious security problems with ancient utmp that cannot be solved? I don't know, and when its man page describes system programs depending on its integrity as foolish, that is ambiguous enough to put me off. If you want to do the research to demonstrate that the file format is unambiguous, every process with access to group utmp updates that file in a secure way, and those processes cannot be tricked into updating that file in a way that would mislead another process into believing false things about a user login, go ahead; I'd be happy to be proved wrong. (utmp and wtmp are group-writable, so every process in group utmp needs to be trusted; compare with logind, which I think can only be told about new sessions by root, typically in libpam-systemd shortly before a setuid() to the target uid.) As it is, every time I've seen code that interacts with utmp in things like gdm or PAM modules, it has been accompanied by comments about determining the meaning of the file by guesswork and vague conventions (e.g. the file format doesn't seem to have been designed to represent X11, leading to things like overloading ut_host and ut_line with if it has a colon in it, it's probably an X11 display). That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. My confidence that every implementation of logind (i.e. currently only one) has been designed with security in mind is considerably greater than my confidence that every implementation of updating utmp has been designed with security in mind. Even systemd use utmp: man -k utmp shows: systemd-update-utmp (8) - Write audit and utmp updates at runlevel changes and shutdown systemd-update-utmp-runlevel.service (8) - Write audit and utmp updates at runlevel changes and shutdown systemd-update-utmp-shutdown.service (8) - Write audit and utmp updates at runlevel changes and shutdown You might notice that there is no mention here of *reading* utmp: systemd appears to be treating it as write-only, so that software that relies on utmp can read values out of it that are at least as accurate as they were before systemd. S -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ad64c1.1050...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 10:43:15AM +, Thorsten Glaser wrote: Sune Vuorela wrote: The way is to put your time/money where your mouth is and provide the code. Asking others to do all the work is not the way forward in OSS. I highly doubt you can call _me_ someone who does not do work in OSS. I think Sune may have phrased it badly, but I read his text to be all the work in this area. You know, methods to clone a human being, time turners, etc. have not been invented yet. I'd like to think I'm doing enough considering that I also have a dayjob. That being said: people have different experiences in different areas. So, yes, it's a give-and-take, and I can fully well expect other people to do my work (in areas I have less experience in) just as I do other peoples' work in areas I'm good in. I'd add some subtlety here: you can expect others to do work that they a) find interesting, b) is useful for them, and/or c) is not an inconvenience for them. What you can't expect is that they'll do a non-trivial amount of work just because it's something you personally want. This is pretty much what's enshrined in the Debian constitution. Some OSS advocates say it's OSS, just do it yourself. This is a harmful attitude and has turned away people often enough. Luckily, these are getting less and less. Do not become one of them, please. I do appreciate your work in Debian. However, as this is the development mailing list, there needs to be an impetus for things to happen. I believe that the suggestion is that if you want to see this happen, you need to try and gather sufficient support for what you want, possibly by finding other like minded people. Simply saying I don't like $foo, change it is not going to work with a volunteer project. Neil -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140627132809.gs11...@halon.org.uk
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/27/2014 11:53, Svante Signell wrote: Before this part of the thread dies out, can anybody comment on this, Simon, Ansgar, Jean-Christophe, ...? I think my earlier answer [1] covers this. [1] https://lists.debian.org/53ac237f.7080...@debian.org Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ad8311.4060...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/27/2014 06:31 PM, Michael Englehorn wrote: Wouldn't glibc then fall into the list of things you don't like as a required framework? By that logic, all libraries must be hot-swappable with no additional effort by the end-user. That's just not realistic. -Michael Are you aware that we're switching away from eglibc? Just saying... Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ad879b.6030...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org writes: Russ Allbery wrote: Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org writes: Yes, I fully agree. But _please_ also realise that there are people, a non-neglibile number of them, for whom these frameworks are not an improvement, and who wish to be not forced to use them. That's fine for you to feel that way, but that feeling does not obligate anyone else to do work, nor does it obligate upstreams who see code and I think it *does* morally obligate them to at least try. I can only cite point 2.1.1 of the Debian constitution here, which I think should be a foundational principle of any purely volunteer effort. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87r42avzrw@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Simon McVittie dixit quod... On 25/06/14 15:43, Svante Signell wrote: Regarding mate desktop policykit-1 build-depends on libsystemd-login-dev only for linux-any. What functionality is missing for other architectures? [...] In Debian 7, PolicyKit could answer the question is Svante logged-in locally? by asking ConsoleKit. ConsoleKit is no longer maintained Can we have alternative dependencies that do not need to get answers to these questions? This worked before *kit were even invented, and this works on other OSes too. Thanks, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/loglpj$hfq$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Russ Allbery dixit quod... Simon McVittie s...@debian.org writes: [ startx ] a virtual console, a locked X screensaver is worthless, because someone can just switch virtual console with Ctrl+Alt+Fn, press Ctrl+C and they're in your shell session. This doesn't change anything else that you point out, but that's why you run startx and then log out of the virtual console. That, or exec startx. (Is there any benefit of one vs. the other?) For the record, I would be happy with a supported setup without systemd that relied on using startx, and putting people into the desktop unix groups manually. Do note that, for upgrade scenarios, running jessie with sysvinit MUST be supported anyway. (But I would prefer that we can do this even for fresh installations and sid.) bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/logm2i$hfq$2...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Le jeudi 26 juin 2014 à 08:31 +, Thorsten Glaser a écrit : Can we have alternative dependencies that do not need to get answers to these questions? This worked before *kit were even invented, and this works on other OSes too. No, it didn’t work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Other OSes (I assume you are talking about other desktop OSes such as Android, Windows and MacOSX) have mechanisms similar to PolicyKit. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1403773037.14436.190.camel@dsp0698014
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org writes: For the record, I would be happy with a supported setup without systemd that relied on using startx, and putting people into the desktop unix groups manually. I don't think startx and fvwm are going anywhere, so, um, enjoy? :) fvwm doesn't depend on anything systemd-related. If you mean that you want this *with GNOME*, well, you're going to have to talk to GNOME upstream, or MATE upstream, or start or join a development group to maintain the necessary pieces. Alas, they're not going to magically appear because you've indicated that you would be happy with them. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87fvisxd0r@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
No, it didn't work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Only on Debian. OpenBSD and MirBSD have: -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 122716 Sep 10 2013 /sbin/shutdown* I never understood why Debian doesn't. bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/logpfo$o6$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/26/2014 11:34, Thorsten Glaser wrote: No, it didn't work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Only on Debian. OpenBSD and MirBSD have: -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 122716 Sep 10 2013 /sbin/shutdown* I never understood why Debian doesn't. Google says the operator group also has (read) access to raw disk devices. Those are totally unrelated: I want to allow local users to shut down their computer when they go home or their laptop when it is no longer needed, but without having to hand out read permissions for raw disk devices. The *BSD permission model only makes sense to me for central systems never shut down or single user installations, but not for multi-user desktop systems. Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53abef09.1080...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 11:59 +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: On 06/26/2014 11:34, Thorsten Glaser wrote: No, it didn't work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Only on Debian. OpenBSD and MirBSD have: -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 122716 Sep 10 2013 /sbin/shutdown* I never understood why Debian doesn't. Google says the operator group also has (read) access to raw disk devices. What about creating a unique group then, e.g. calling it it shutdown? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1403777156.13072.62.ca...@g3620.my.own.domain
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Le jeudi 26 juin 2014 à 09:34 +, Thorsten Glaser a écrit : No, it didn't work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Only on Debian. OpenBSD and MirBSD have: -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 122716 Sep 10 2013 /sbin/shutdown* I never understood why Debian doesn't. You are entitled to the opinion that setuid is a good security design. Thankfully, most of the Linux community disagrees with you. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1403778532.14436.194.camel@dsp0698014
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
[ ⏰ 26/06/2014 12:05 ] [ ✎ Svante Signell ] On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 11:59 +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: On 06/26/2014 11:34, Thorsten Glaser wrote: No, it didn't work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Only on Debian. OpenBSD and MirBSD have: -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 122716 Sep 10 2013 /sbin/shutdown* I never understood why Debian doesn't. Google says the operator group also has (read) access to raw disk devices. What about creating a unique group then, e.g. calling it it shutdown? So that students can do eg ssh mybuddymachine /sbin/shutdown ? (and they need to be able to shutdown their own machine, power is not free). This is simply a long-standing bug in Linux that you got used to (or got used to its workarounds), but as a solution now exists, the status quo is threatened. Sincerely, -- Jean-Christophe Dubacq signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:02:15 +0200 Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 11:45 +0100, Wookey wrote: +++ Matthias Urlichs [2014-06-26 11:58 +0200]: Hi, Which shows about a change from 'peak sysvinit-core' in mid-april: Mid april Now sysvinit-core:89% 81% systemd-sysv: 6% 19% A question: If you uninstall a package is that reflected in the popcon graphs too? Yes, of course it is, if that system has popularity-contest enabled. -- Neil Williams = http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 14:03 +0200, Jean-Christophe Dubacq wrote: [ ⏰ 26/06/2014 12:05 ] [ ✎ Svante Signell ] On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 11:59 +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: On 06/26/2014 11:34, Thorsten Glaser wrote: No, it didn't work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Only on Debian. OpenBSD and MirBSD have: -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 122716 Sep 10 2013 /sbin/shutdown* I never understood why Debian doesn't. Google says the operator group also has (read) access to raw disk devices. What about creating a unique group then, e.g. calling it it shutdown? So that students can do eg ssh mybuddymachine /sbin/shutdown ? Of course with the additional check that the students are logged in to that box locally, did I forget to mention that? Another point is of course is that if you are locally connected to your/somebody else's computer nothing is hindering you from pushing the on/off button or pull the plug (except physically). Is shutting off a computer really a problem, normally multi-available ones are always on? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1403786016.14272.51.ca...@s1499.it.kth.se
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 26/06/14 13:33, Svante Signell wrote: Of course with the additional check that the students are logged in to that box locally, did I forget to mention that? Apparently yes. So you'll still need some solution to is this user local? - either an implementation of the systemd-logind API (preferred, at this point, if you want anything you didn't write to talk to it), an implementation of the ConsoleKit API, something else that uses a PAM module as its basis for tracking who is logged in locally/remotely, or something involving utmp/wtmp/other traditions. utmp(5) says many system programs (foolishly) depend on its integrity so be very careful with security implications if you go that way. I wouldn't want anything relying on utmp for its security on my systems. Another point is of course is that if you are locally connected to your/somebody else's computer nothing is hindering you from pushing the on/off button or pull the plug (except physically). Is shutting off a computer really a problem, normally multi-available ones are always on? That's valid, and is exactly the rationale for a recent systemd version (post-wheezy, I think) changing its default policy to locally-logged-in users may power off even if there are other users logged in; non-local users must authenticate as root-equivalent. Recent GNOME will give you an are you sure? prompt if there are other users logged in, but no more than that. Earlier systemd versions matched the previous behaviour with ConsoleKit, which was a local user may power off without root-equivalent authentication, but only if they are the only one logged-in. The reason I say its default policy is that the reason PolicyKit has that name is that apps only provide a *default* policy, and distributors and sysadmins can override it with an alternative policy (more lenient, more strict, group-based, time-based, whatever) if the default is unacceptable for their environment. A kiosk or shared-computer-lab installation might override logind's default policy with one requiring root-equivalence to power off, for instance. tl;dr: these frameworks were not invented just to troll you, they do have a purpose :-) S -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ac17ad.3090...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Wookey wrote: +++ Matthias Urlichs [2014-06-26 11:58 +0200]: Hi, Andrew Shadura: [14]http://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=systemd-sysv+sysvinitshow_installed=onwant_legend=o nwant_ticks=onfrom_date=2014-01-01to_date=hlght_date=date_fmt=%Y-%mbeenhere=1 Sorry, but this only demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about. For a comparison that's even remotely meaningful you want sysvinit-core, not sysvinit. [15]http://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=systemd-sysv+sysvinit-coreshow_installed=onwant_legend= onwant_ti%20+cks=onfrom_date=2014-01-01to_date=hlght_date=date_fmt=%Y-%mbeenhere=1 Which shows about a change from 'peak sysvinit-core' in mid-april: Mid april Now sysvinit-core:89% 81% systemd-sysv: 6% 19% Which seems plausible. Except that sysvinit-core was not in stable and older, so youâd want to add those numbers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/loh6u9$ede$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Svante Signell wrote: On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 11:59 +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: On 06/26/2014 11:34, Thorsten Glaser wrote: No, it didn't work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Only on Debian. OpenBSD and MirBSD have: -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 122716 Sep 10 2013 /sbin/shutdown* I never understood why Debian doesn't. Google says the operator group also has (read) access to raw disk devices. Yes well, this is a Unix thing. The operator is the person operating the physical disc. What about creating a unique group then, e.g. calling it it shutdown? That, and/or creating a user account called shutdown, which would also remove the objection against the suid bit, which I find a bit irritating because the objection is done absolutely blindly (this is not a _security_ feature but a _workability_ feature). Or it could be a sudoers entry. The possibilities are a lot. bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/loh71t$ede$2...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Jean-Christophe Dubacq wrote: So that students can do eg ssh mybuddymachine /sbin/shutdown ? (and they need to be able to shutdown their own machine, power is not free). Why do people always think that a proposal will automatically exclude all others? In your student scenario, you do *not* add them to the shutdown group (or you show some trust into them). In your scenario, you use all those *kit (or their successors) packages. You are what those GNOME/systemd people target their new things at. But neither you nor Svante/me are the *only* use cases. Rather, both coexist. Just as I do not want to tell you to add all your students to the shitdown group, which would be inappropriate, I do not want to be told to use systemd, just to shut down a box. Use the right tool for the job. Again: variatio delectat, and I'm all for freedom of choice here. bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/loh7gj$ede$3...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Simon McVittie wrote: tl;dr: these frameworks were not invented just to troll you, they do have a purpose :-) Yes, I fully agree. But _please_ also realise that there are people, a non-neglibile number of them, for whom these frameworks are not an improvement, and who wish to be not forced to use them. Thank you. bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/loh7l6$ede$4...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Hi, On 06/26/2014 14:33, Svante Signell wrote: On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 14:03 +0200, Jean-Christophe Dubacq wrote: [ ⏰ 26/06/2014 12:05 ] [ ✎ Svante Signell ] On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 11:59 +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: On 06/26/2014 11:34, Thorsten Glaser wrote: No, it didn't work. You had to be root for operations as simple as shutting down the computer. Only on Debian. OpenBSD and MirBSD have: -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 122716 Sep 10 2013 /sbin/shutdown* I never understood why Debian doesn't. Google says the operator group also has (read) access to raw disk devices. What about creating a unique group then, e.g. calling it it shutdown? So that students can do eg ssh mybuddymachine /sbin/shutdown ? Of course with the additional check that the students are logged in to that box locally, did I forget to mention that? And for that you need to keep track of sessions via something like systemd-logind, ConsoleKit, utmp or something else, whatever developers decide to use. Mostly they seem to settle on systemd-logind. So, we end with a system that works for both simple (single-user) and more complex setups (multi-user, multi-seat). The question then is: I have a system that works for both simple and complex setups. Should I implement (continue to maintain) a second system that only works for simple setups? Some upstreams have decided that they have not the resources and interest to maintain a second system; they end with a dependency on systemd. Sometimes they keep code for the old system, but don't write code to fallback to it at runtime. So one has to decide at build time which system to support. Maintainers might choose to enable the system that works both setups[1] -- again ending with a systemd dependency, but still working on *BSD where the alternative (less capable) system in chosen instead. [1] It might be possible to build two alternative versions like done with, for example, vim. But maintainers might choose not to do so for the same reasons upstream -- not enough resources and lack of interest of involved people. So, if people care about support for mechanisms that don't rely on systemd-logind and only support a subset of configurations, they need to join upstream projects. Just stomping with your foot does not work: sign up to maintain support for non-systemd setups and implement fallback code from one system to another where needed instead. Another point is of course is that if you are locally connected to your/somebody else's computer nothing is hindering you from pushing the on/off button or pull the plug (except physically). Is shutting off a computer really a problem, normally multi-available ones are always on? Shutting the system down is just one example: you can go on with access to audio devices and USB ports (and connected media) in multi-seat configurations and so on. Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ac237f.7080...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
[ ⏰ 26/06/2014 15:34 ] [ ✎ Thorsten Glaser ] Jean-Christophe Dubacq wrote: So that students can do eg ssh mybuddymachine /sbin/shutdown ? (and they need to be able to shutdown their own machine, power is not free). Why do people always think that a proposal will automatically exclude all others? In your student scenario, you do *not* add them to the shutdown group (or you show some trust into them). In your scenario, you use all those *kit (or their successors) packages. You are what those GNOME/systemd people target their new things at. But neither you nor Svante/me are the *only* use cases. Rather, both coexist. Just as I do not want to tell you to add all your students to the shitdown group, which would be inappropriate, I do not want to be told to use systemd, just to shut down a box. Use the right tool for the job. However, in your scenario, somebody will bug base-files asking that the shutdown group be added to the base groups of everybody. I do not want that. My ideal setup is that nobody has any groups but his own. I would like audio and video groups removed for everybody. This is not needed with the correct framework. I agree that this model may work for special needs (fuse, maybe?). So I say, if you want to use this kind of backward setup, install systemd-equivs, setup whatever you need, modifying pam groups and everything, like I used to setup the IRQ number for my sound card twenty years ago, and be done with it. Sincerely, -- Jean-Christophe Dubacq signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
systemd-must-die (was Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian)
Wookey worte: [11]http://users.unixforge.de/~tglaser/debs/dists/etch/wtf/Pkgs/mirabilos-support/ Can it be uploaded please? As has been observed, there is a reasonable number of people who would like an easy way to control explicitly when/if they change to systemd for pid 1. Having to get it from a separate repo should not be necessary. If you wish, and ftpmasters agree, I can split this package off the (larger) source package I made (which creates half a dozen such metapackages, some just conflicting with stuff like systemd, ncurses-term and puppet, some just depending on stuff I wish to have installed on systems I touch so I do not have to interrupt work every 5 minutes to add just another tool, and some with a few tools and skeleton files), and upload it separately. When I was new to Debian, waldi taught me about the cost of new binary packages (I had originally a separate mksh-static package, intended for use on the initrd). I do not know whether the cost is prohibitive here. The package itself is absolutely trivial, it just conflicts with anything systemd, and has no content of its own. I believe it does not need to be in Debian itself, technically, but I agree to upload it if its presence is desired politically (even to wheezy-backports). bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/loh7s8$ede$5...@ger.gmane.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Thu, 2014-06-26 at 13:53 +0100, Simon McVittie wrote: On 26/06/14 13:33, Svante Signell wrote: Of course with the additional check that the students are logged in to that box locally, did I forget to mention that? ... or something involving utmp/wtmp/other traditions. utmp(5) says many system programs (foolishly) depend on its integrity so be very careful with security implications if you go that way. I wouldn't want anything relying on utmp for its security on my systems. Maybe I'm naive but doesn't utmp(5) solve this problem? who(1) tells me in clear-text if I'm logged in locally or remote: Linux: local remote or local console,tty pts/number ~$ who usr tty1 2014-06-26 16:16 usr :0 2014-06-24 19:33 (:0) usr pts/12014-06-25 15:19 (:0.0) susr pts/82014-06-26 16:24 (ip-address/hostname) Hurd: local remote console, tty ttyp ~$ who loginconsole 2014-06-25 16:54 logintty12014-06-25 16:54 (tty1 to tty6) usr ttyp02014-06-25 19:33 (ip-address/hostname) Here a special user named login is used for not yet logged in terminals. For kFreeBSD I dunno yet, have to check. Are there serious security problems with ancient utmp that cannot be solved? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1403793121.14272.73.ca...@s1499.it.kth.se
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Jun 26, Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org wrote: Yes, I fully agree. But _please_ also realise that there are people, a non-neglibile number of them, for whom these frameworks are not an improvement, and who wish to be not forced to use them. A few people said this about udev as well. Now they use udev. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 26/06/2014 15:33, Marco d'Itri wrote: On Jun 26, Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org wrote: Yes, I fully agree. But _please_ also realise that there are people, a non-neglibile number of them, for whom these frameworks are not an improvement, and who wish to be not forced to use them. A few people said this about udev as well. Now they use udev. ... and complain or suffer in silence. Don't take popcon as a measure of people being happy to use a critical dependency like udev. I've udev installed on some servers as a dependency of many packages, but udev itself is disabled in scripts as it keeps crashing on my hardware. (Old powerpc server). -- Alastair McKinstry, alast...@sceal.ie, mckins...@debian.org, https://diaspora.sceal.ie/u/amckinstry A decent provision for the poor is the true test of civilization. ~Samuel Johnson, Boswell: Life of Johnson -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTrDUyAAoJEN9LdrZRJ3Qsm2oP/iyeqCgVYH5VaVLhNrCOZiPw H2Hoiy396dB0LXidHZS71Uq4U3NshIktuCVar6jz3dlWNCB2kQq4lASlcNNnDKBu RHtDKL9XF90YRooQU+E6HATGGokUbQFIEeDqQ5rl/2PUhgsaK1W3RFk35BHD4HAs 8+YQdBbkSG3sGdKIJu7mpY81AehV/syTqYY1q524h63ErdM7qeTo344h3Q7aneD4 DtVQ29S1cBApKo4J5knI+YvyQ942faxTAamrBi/tDKNG/riS9oiZ+W2XhWjCCWYf 7UFeWLecCK31nnSsgQWrvvAWqVQ1KCRwxHGmoGzLlsZwK4tLAd/9dyMDQJS0cS/U SWS1FZzOqDc3K1PV1V/D8LyaOyCbdffQjAX9M2Son2hrZhzaidkWzozEsF+vqBn3 urLrCjL2Hx5ZOtQ2zyJcOxEkmiflh+wGjCjiZkusuVJ5NjjYzva1BV7dmfdXwKNz kO/7phITNZ4PEPOtA07/z8CyTK91JGj5uSaTdVyh7Q/YxnHFOLE2mRmf0ptCrer3 SfOwN3KZK6qhBD+A0IWputnZPD+SEuIgA0hgskK/BfXPvtNF2pHg4UNmUmZT8s22 fGNpVOiq9IihPJgyzqXYX5ZSu39w6UixiJKW8hDWj7SLQafhTwEBi4POsYP6J2+F HkLnorBtNqqZDKA5nteZ =IOMt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53ac3532.1040...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:58 PM, Alastair McKinstry wrote: udev itself is disabled in scripts as it keeps crashing on my hardware. (Old powerpc server). Which bug number is this? -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6FC1bUVvy_ur-Yi=m9pws26gib6jei4wkfcsb4fu_x...@mail.gmail.com
Re: systemd-must-die (was Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian)
On 26 Jun 2014 15:05, Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org wrote: content of its own. I believe it does not need to be in Debian itself, technically, but I agree to upload it if its presence is desired politically (even to wheezy-backports). Personally I would love it. Cheers. -- Alessio
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Thorsten Glaser t...@debian.org writes: Yes, I fully agree. But _please_ also realise that there are people, a non-neglibile number of them, for whom these frameworks are not an improvement, and who wish to be not forced to use them. That's fine for you to feel that way, but that feeling does not obligate anyone else to do work, nor does it obligate upstreams who see code and conceptual simplification benefits for dropping non-logind approaches to maintain support they don't like. If you want to be able to avoid new frameworks that the general community of Linux developers feel materially improve the quality of the Linux desktop experience, you're going to have to get together with like-minded people and actually do the work, on an ongoing basis. Some of those upstreams have indicated willingness to keep other interfaces provided someone is actively engaged with them about those interfaces and doing development on them. For other upstreams, you may have to fork, or just say that people who don't want to use systemd won't be able to use that software. My family had a Betamax VCR. The format was arguably much better than VHS. It didn't get support, maintaining both formats wasn't viable, and it died. We bought a VHS VCR. That's not necessarily what's going to happen with systemd (in particular, it's much easier to maintain multiple init infrastructures than multiple commercial VCR tape formats). But there's still work involved that someone would have to do. It's easy to express your disappointment on mailing lists and much harder to say here's the new infrastructure that replaces PolicyKit and ConsoleKit, here's what it's going to be able to do and what it isn't going to be able to do, here are the situations where you'll just need to use logind instead, and here are patches to GNOME to make it work properly. Which is why no one's done that yet. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/878uojcymh@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Fri, Jun 06, 2014 at 01:11:04PM -0700, Ryan Tandy wrote: On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: GNOME flashback AFAIK is a Debian thing. For sure it is NOT part of GNOME. We do have GNOME classic, but you already know that. I'm a bit confused. GNOME Flashback has at least some upstream presence: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomeFlashback and https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-flashback-list The gnome-panel and metacity repositories on git.gnome.org both have recent commits. Are those no longer considered part of GNOME? They use GNOME infrastructure (Bugzilla, git, etc), they release tarballs but not part of what release team releases/coordinates. As such also not in any release notes nor email from release team. See for instance the announcement of GNOME 3.13.2: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2014-May/msg00034.html the tarballs it links to are: https://download.gnome.org/core/3.13/3.13.2/sources/ https://download.gnome.org/apps/3.13/3.13.2/sources/ There is no gnome-panel tarball in those directories. The wiki indicates interested people for this includes MATE developers, etc. I'd see it as separate things: - GNOME team (fairly big with l10n, etc) - MATE (l10n will usually handle anything on git.gnome.org) - GNOME flashback team (same here) I know metacity is maintained as the new maintainer asked for Bugzilla privileges I'm not sure of the difference between flashback and MATE. MATE took over a few git modules, flashback as well. To be clear: I think it is great that various groups of developers took over modules and are going in their own way/direction. Regarding release notes: I expect that to be written by those teams. MATE doing their release notes, flashback team as well. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140607111553.gb31...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Hi, On Fr 06 Jun 2014 01:21:27 CEST, Listeiro 037 wrote: Mate is no network applet on the panel. Anyone know what happened? The MATE philosophy is: re-use existing stuff where possible. E.g. as network-manager applet, use the GNOME nm-applet. Same with a pocket calculator tool. MATE upstream has dropped its mate-calc subproject in favour of the gcalculator application. Etc. etc. Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, herweg 7, 24357 fleckeby fon: +49 (1520) 1976 148 GnuPG Key ID 0x25771B31 mail: mike.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb pgp3TSiP5Se6D.pgp Description: Digitale PGP-Signatur
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/06/2014 07:21 AM, Listeiro 037 wrote: Mate is no network applet on the panel. Anyone know what happened? Not sure how, but I do have the network applet. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/539178ee.3090...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
nm-applet, up and down stream? Em Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:16:46 +0800 Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org escreveu: On 06/06/2014 07:21 AM, Listeiro 037 wrote: Mate is no network applet on the panel. Anyone know what happened? Not sure how, but I do have the network applet. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/395127.15592...@smtp113.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Thu, Jun 05, 2014 at 01:17:46AM -0700, Octavio Alvarez wrote: From my point of view, GNOME Flashback just doesn't have enough love from --pretty much-- anybody; this includes the GNOME team: no news about GNOME Flashback in the 3.10 or 3.12 release notes (it was first released in 3.8). GNOME flashback AFAIK is a Debian thing. For sure it is NOT part of GNOME. We do have GNOME classic, but you already know that. I'm a bit confused. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140606191445.ga31...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: GNOME flashback AFAIK is a Debian thing. For sure it is NOT part of GNOME. We do have GNOME classic, but you already know that. I'm a bit confused. GNOME Flashback has at least some upstream presence: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomeFlashback and https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-flashback-list The gnome-panel and metacity repositories on git.gnome.org both have recent commits. Are those no longer considered part of GNOME? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAMXH3QAb2Wop=jg95b+vbauemmmrqdtc4mogynsamzq9o_5...@mail.gmail.com
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Hi Thomas, On Mi 04 Jun 2014 07:46:45 CEST, Thomas Goirand wrote: And it feels goood! :-) Thanks a lot for the work. This is just awesome. :-) Just one tiny thing. Could we have a Debian logo instead of the Mate logo on the top-left, just as we used to? :) Just use the Clearlooks theme and then you have back the complete retro look of Debian squeeze / GNOMEv2. ;-) Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, herweg 7, 24357 fleckeby fon: +49 (1520) 1976 148 GnuPG Key ID 0x25771B31 mail: mike.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb pgpsE9Sregckz.pgp Description: Digitale PGP-Signatur
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Hi, On Di 03 Jun 2014 23:35:05 CEST, Svante Signell wrote: On Tue, 2014-06-03 at 21:59 +0100, Steven Chamberlain wrote: On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 11:38:44 +, Mike Gabriel wrote: the MATE Packaging Team is proud to announce that MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian. Also on kfreebsd :) Thank you for this! Testers: please remember to let us know at debian-...@lists.debian.org if you find kfreebsd-specific bugs. Hurd support should be not far away, mate-menus is the main blocker: Bug #750497 Which has been fixed with upload of mate-menus 1.8.0-3. So, most of MATE should be available for Debian GNU/Hurd people soon... AFAICT from the buildd overview [1]. light+love, Mike [1] https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=pkg-mate-team%40lists.alioth.debian.orgsuite=sidcompact=compacta=amd64,armel,armhf,hurd-i386,i386,kfreebsd-amd64,kfreebsd-i386,mips,mipsel,powerpc,s390x,sparc -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, herweg 7, 24357 fleckeby fon: +49 (1520) 1976 148 GnuPG Key ID 0x25771B31 mail: mike.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb pgp4owV68L_Jh.pgp Description: Digitale PGP-Signatur
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/03/2014 05:36 AM, Fabian Greffrath wrote: Again, I don't want to degrade the MATE project or your packaging effort, not at all. But my questions and concerns are serious. I still do not get the point of the whole MATE desktop now that it tries to run behind and catch up with GNOME again. Speaking as an individual, I do appreciate the effort of the MATE team. My experience with GNOME Flashback has ranged from very bad to incredibly frustrating, up to the point that I decided to switch to Xfce and I have, since, been happy again. Just before writing this message, I tested GNOME Flashback once again on my Sid box and it does not unpaint some windows (tried with the menu and GNOME Terminal). This is not only a show stopper, it's an elemental mistake. I couldn't be able to say if it's a packaging problem or a GNOME Flashback problem. I run GNOME Flashback under Ubuntu at work. At that moment, when I installed it I had to diagnose a terrible a memory leak that came from upstream. I know Ubuntu is not Debian, but the memory leak was eventually acknowledged and fixed by upstream. OTOH, GNOME Classic just runs on top of GNOME Shell, suffering from the same drawbacks like resource consumption and the tablet-like UX paradigm (just a bit less sucky). From my point of view, GNOME Flashback just doesn't have enough love from --pretty much-- anybody; this includes the GNOME team: no news about GNOME Flashback in the 3.10 or 3.12 release notes (it was first released in 3.8). I will, of course, test MATE in the upcoming days. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/539027aa.7040...@alvarezp.ods.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/03/2014 01:38 PM, Mike Gabriel wrote: Dear all, the MATE Packaging Team is proud to announce that MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian. Finally!, actually I've been using mate-desktop since Debian dropped Gnome2 ( it was 1.4 at that time as far as I remember ). Thank you! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53903d3d.9070...@biotec.tu-dresden.de
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Mate is no network applet on the panel. Anyone know what happened? Em Thu, 05 Jun 2014 11:49:49 +0200 Alex Mestiashvili a...@biotec.tu-dresden.de escreveu: On 06/03/2014 01:38 PM, Mike Gabriel wrote: Dear all, the MATE Packaging Team is proud to announce that MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian. Finally!, actually I've been using mate-desktop since Debian dropped Gnome2 ( it was 1.4 at that time as far as I remember ). Thank you! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/44663.61104...@smtp210.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Tue, Jun 03, 2014 at 03:06:46PM +, Mike Gabriel wrote: o GNOME classic/fallback/flashback has become obsolete by upstream AFAIK GNOME classic is maintained, it is a set of extensions against gnome-shell. Some distributions renamed fallback as classic, resulting in some confusion. There are goods and bads about forked code. GNOMEv3 is a completely different product compared to GNOMEv2. So, a fork at that time, like it was done by the MATE people, absolutely made sense (to me). GNOMEv3 from a user perspective is completely different. On a package level, there aren't that many differences. MATE initially forked everything. But for a while now they've taken over maintenance of some components on git.gnome.org. IMO some time was wasted, but that's up to them. They're sticking around and I don't understand the focus of what people do. I don't think any of the MATE devs contributed to GNOME before starting MATE, so MATE resulted in a lot of new developers actively working on free software. That being said, I did complain for a while about some unneeded forks. Having critical people is also needed to improve things. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140604113513.ga13...@bkor.dhs.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/04/2014 11:19 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: oh and ... no systemd, so it can run on non-linux ports! :) On that note, how are things with OpenRC. All I've tested so far is inside my test vm, where it works fine. I'd love to have it on my work laptop, if I just had a replacement for policykit. -- Given the large number of mailing lists I follow, I request you to CC me in replies for quicker response signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Dear Mike, dear all from the Mate Team, *big*big*big* thanks for all your work, it is very very much appreciated! Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140603114606.go2...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Dear Mike and dear MATE packaging team, the MATE Packaging Team is proud to announce that MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian. thank you for your contributions to Debian! The MATE desktop environment is a fork of what was formerly known as the GNOME v2 desktop environment. The MATE upstream developers have performed a really good job in integrating the old GNOME code with latest technologies like DConf an GSettings. The next upcoming release Please don't get me wrong, but I am still not sure if this tremendous effort would not have been better invested in GNOME Classic or GNOME flashback instead of creating (and packaging) another fork. Speaking of packages, how does e.g. mate-panel 1.8 differentiate from gnome-panel 3.8? of MATE (which will be the 1.10 series) will also have GTK3 support (if things go well!). During the last 6 months several people have worked on the provisioning of MATE packages in Debian. Same question for other packages: If e.g. engrampa 1.10 (MATE's pendant to file-roller, the archive utility) gets ported to GTK3 and features DConf and GSettings support, how does it differentiate from GNOME's file-roller? Why not rather use the original actually? Again, I don't want to degrade the MATE project or your packaging effort, not at all. But my questions and concerns are serious. I still do not get the point of the whole MATE desktop now that it tries to run behind and catch up with GNOME again. Please enlighten me, Fabian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1401798960.23693.9.ca...@kff50.ghi.rwth-aachen.de
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
First of all, thanks a lot for your work! :) It's just great. I work in a complete different field in Debian (eg: servers and cloud), and it feels just awesome to see that others are putting a great amount of effort on the desktop. On 06/03/2014 07:38 PM, Mike Gabriel wrote: @Testers: a basic MATE desktop gets installed via the meta package mate-desktop-environment. A wider range of extra tools/applets/etc. gets pulled in via the meta package mate-desktop-environment-extras. @Testers2: We wait for your bug reports (and patches!)... I'm not so fund of the idea of using anything else but Debian stable for my laptop (I do use Testing and Sid for some servers though). So I wanted to try in Wheezy. Though some concerns here, before I press the red button... If I want to try in Wheezy using backports, I get: # sudo apt-get install -t wheezy-backports mate-desktop-environment [...] 0 upgraded, 69 newly installed, 0 to remove and 251 not upgraded. Does this seem normal to you? How come there's 251 not upgraded? Will this break my current Wheezy GNOME desktop (I mean: did you test that?)? Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/538ddabd.8090...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El 03/06/14 08:38, Mike Gabriel escribió: Dear all, the MATE Packaging Team is proud to announce that MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian. good job! thanks for you work! - -- Fernando Toledo Dock Sud BBS http://bbs.docksud.com.ar telnet://bbs.docksud.com.ar -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlON3+UACgkQrka4e4h7i+M/SACgz03vNYVQcOZli4OgV7bRi481 ciIAniYHvhJJLiPgNsiIUzhNXjfQ0Jvz =wY4p -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/538ddfe5.4060...@docksud.com.ar
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Hi Fabian, On Di 03 Jun 2014 14:36:00 CEST, Fabian Greffrath wrote: The MATE desktop environment is a fork of what was formerly known as the GNOME v2 desktop environment. The MATE upstream developers have performed a really good job in integrating the old GNOME code with latest technologies like DConf an GSettings. The next upcoming release Please don't get me wrong, but I am still not sure if this tremendous effort would not have been better invested in GNOME Classic or GNOME flashback instead of creating (and packaging) another fork. Speaking of packages, how does e.g. mate-panel 1.8 differentiate from gnome-panel 3.8? Please test that yourself. The MATE panel is quite similar to the GNOMEv2 panel. When I switched from GNOMEv2 to GNOMEv3 classic, I sort of missed several configuration options around panels. With MATE these options have come back now. of MATE (which will be the 1.10 series) will also have GTK3 support (if things go well!). During the last 6 months several people have worked on the provisioning of MATE packages in Debian. Same question for other packages: If e.g. engrampa 1.10 (MATE's pendant to file-roller, the archive utility) gets ported to GTK3 and features DConf and GSettings support, how does it differentiate from GNOME's file-roller? Why not rather use the original actually? The MATE desktop consists of several components that closely interact with each other. Only those GNOMEv2 components absolutely necessary got forked by the MATE project. Updating to newer backend technologies like dconf, gsettings or gtk3 is simply about moving with time and development of shared libraries. It's like propping up a VW T3. The appearance stays, but the engine under the hood got quite refurbished. Again, I don't want to degrade the MATE project or your packaging effort, not at all. But my questions and concerns are serious. I still do not get the point of the whole MATE desktop now that it tries to run behind and catch up with GNOME again. Let me name you several of my personal reasons for giving so much time into packaging MATE (several tens of hours during the last six months): o MATE works perfectly in X2Go sessions (remote desktop solution for Linux servers), [Note that I am member of the X2Go upstream development team...] o MATE scales well without graphical hardware acceleration o The resources footprint is much smaller than that of GNOMEv3 o Many of my customers run GNOMEv2 on Debian squeeze. Many users don't want to change. With MATE, I can provide a desktop shell that allows smooth migration of those customer setups without enforcing too much change on users. o GNOME classic/fallback/flashback has become obsolete by upstream AFAIK There are goods and bads about forked code. GNOMEv3 is a completely different product compared to GNOMEv2. So, a fork at that time, like it was done by the MATE people, absolutely made sense (to me). If a group of devs comes together and they do a good job in maintaining the code, then a fork certainly is a way to go. And to my impression, the MATE upstream team does a really GREAT job!!! I have been working with them closely together for the last six months and the interaction has been really good and also very professional. Greets, Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, herweg 7, 24357 fleckeby fon: +49 (1520) 1976 148 GnuPG Key ID 0x25771B31 mail: mike.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb pgpTxQi5w9IXq.pgp Description: Digitale PGP-Signatur
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Hi Thomas, On Di 03 Jun 2014 16:25:01 CEST, Thomas Goirand wrote: If I want to try in Wheezy using backports, I get: # sudo apt-get install -t wheezy-backports mate-desktop-environment [...] 0 upgraded, 69 newly installed, 0 to remove and 251 not upgraded. Does this seem normal to you? How come there's 251 not upgraded? Will this break my current Wheezy GNOME desktop (I mean: did you test that?)? The 251 means: there are 251 packages in wheezy-backports that are newer than on your system (i.e. than in wheezy, if the system is 100% wheezy). MATE has no explicitly versioned dependencies on packages in wheezy-backports (only inside its own stack of MATE packages). So an installation of MATE on Debian wheezy from wheezy-bpo should not upgrade any of the currently installed packages (assuming a clean wheezy install). If you observe something different, please report back and I will take a closer look. You current GNOME installation from wheezy won't break when installing MATE. I run setups like that myself. The MATE upstream team did a great job in completely creating a new namespace on the file system for MATE installation files. None of the MATE packages conflicts with current GNOME packages. In fact, MATE has started using current GNOME components (e.g. gnome-keyring) or libs (e.g. libwnck). Thanks, Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, herweg 7, 24357 fleckeby fon: +49 (1520) 1976 148 GnuPG Key ID 0x25771B31 mail: mike.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb pgpGdhiNS7eAe.pgp Description: Digitale PGP-Signatur
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 11:38:44 +, Mike Gabriel wrote: the MATE Packaging Team is proud to announce that MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian. Also on kfreebsd :) Thank you for this! Testers: please remember to let us know at debian-...@lists.debian.org if you find kfreebsd-specific bugs. Hurd support should be not far away, mate-menus is the main blocker: https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=pkg-mate-team%40lists.alioth.debian.orgsuite=sidcompact=compacta=amd64,armel,armhf,hurd-i386,i386,kfreebsd-amd64,kfreebsd-i386,mips,mipsel,powerpc,s390x,sparc Regards, -- Steven Chamberlain ste...@pyro.eu.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/538e372d.9090...@pyro.eu.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On Tue, 2014-06-03 at 21:59 +0100, Steven Chamberlain wrote: On Tue, 03 Jun 2014 11:38:44 +, Mike Gabriel wrote: the MATE Packaging Team is proud to announce that MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian. Also on kfreebsd :) Thank you for this! Testers: please remember to let us know at debian-...@lists.debian.org if you find kfreebsd-specific bugs. Hurd support should be not far away, mate-menus is the main blocker: Bug #750497 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1401831305.6795.67.ca...@g3620.my.own.domain
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/03/2014 11:14 PM, Mike Gabriel wrote: Hi Thomas, On Di 03 Jun 2014 16:25:01 CEST, Thomas Goirand wrote: If I want to try in Wheezy using backports, I get: # sudo apt-get install -t wheezy-backports mate-desktop-environment [...] 0 upgraded, 69 newly installed, 0 to remove and 251 not upgraded. Does this seem normal to you? How come there's 251 not upgraded? Will this break my current Wheezy GNOME desktop (I mean: did you test that?)? The 251 means: there are 251 packages in wheezy-backports that are newer than on your system (i.e. than in wheezy, if the system is 100% wheezy). MATE has no explicitly versioned dependencies on packages in wheezy-backports (only inside its own stack of MATE packages). So an installation of MATE on Debian wheezy from wheezy-bpo should not upgrade any of the currently installed packages (assuming a clean wheezy install). If you observe something different, please report back and I will take a closer look. You current GNOME installation from wheezy won't break when installing MATE. I run setups like that myself. The MATE upstream team did a great job in completely creating a new namespace on the file system for MATE installation files. None of the MATE packages conflicts with current GNOME packages. In fact, MATE has started using current GNOME components (e.g. gnome-keyring) or libs (e.g. libwnck). Thanks, Mike I'm now running MATE on my laptop. Bye bye to the slow GNOME 3, I'm back with file manager at the speed I was used to, a globally reactive desktop env, the good old applets which I missed, etc. It just works! :) And it feels goood! Thanks a lot for the work. This is just awesome. Just one tiny thing. Could we have a Debian logo instead of the Mate logo on the top-left, just as we used to? :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/538eb2c5.5000...@debian.org
Re: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
On 06/03/2014 08:36 PM, Fabian Greffrath wrote: Please don't get me wrong, but I am still not sure if this tremendous effort would not have been better invested in GNOME Classic or GNOME flashback instead of creating (and packaging) another fork. I don't agree. There's many things that I missed from GNOME 2, and that I'm *very* happy to see back to running and maintained. Like: it's FAST. No way you could get near to that speed with the classic mode of GNOME 3. oh and ... no systemd, so it can run on non-linux ports! :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/538eb37d.20...@debian.org
