Welcome new Debian Developer : winnie

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developer who have completed the NM process and is now a full
project member:

* Patrick Winnertz 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

Welcome new Debian Developers: ribalda, azazel, dxld

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Ricardo Ribalda Delgado 
* Jeremy Sowden 
* Daniel Gröber 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: hibby, cpina, soren

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Dave Hibberd 
* Carles Pina i Estany 
* Soren Stoutner 

Welcome! And thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developer : tpearson

[Jonathan Carter]

Seasonal Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developer who have completed the NM process and is now a full
project member:

* Timothy Pearson 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


pgpp_U81QabLP.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: jipege, tchet, bandali

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Amin Bandali 
* Alexandre Detiste 
* Jean-Pierre Giraud 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: 2023 Debian Project survey: Sustainability now open!

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2023/11/15 07:39, Mathieu O'Neil wrote:

Hi Debian :-)


Hi Mathieu, I'm sure that was also not intentional, but in addition to 
what Michael has said, please don't hijack threads on our lists.


-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developers: ltworf, obbardc

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Salvo Tomaselli 
* Christopher Obbard 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: mzf, puck

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* François Mazen 
* Andrew Ruthven 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: mariogrip, rmb, eamanu, rgson, slyon, polverari

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process, and are now full project
members:

 * Marius Gripsgard 
 * Mohammed Bilal 
 * Emmanuel Arias 
 * Robin Gustafsson 
 * Lukas Märdian 
 * David da Silva Polverari  

Welcome again, and thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


pgpNUWAjX_kBK.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developer: gagath

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to Agathe Porte , who has completed 
the NM process and is now a full

project member and an uploading Debian Developer.

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: jlu, hmc

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process, and are now full project 
members:


* James Lu 
* Hugh McMaster 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

Welcome new Debian Developers: sahil, jru

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process, and are now full project 
members:


* Sahil Dhiman 
* Jakub Ružička 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_0xB01D1A72AC8DC9A1.asc
Description: OpenPGP public key


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

European Cyber Resilience Act and policy making with the European Commission

[Jonathan Carter]

Dear Debianites

The European Commission Open Source Programme Office (EC OSPO) is open 
to hearing our thoughts on the upcoming Cyber Resilience Act (CRA), 
which aims to ensure that hardware and software products sold in Europe 
have fewer security vulnerabilities and are appropriately addressed when 
discovered. The EC OSPO is considering an audience with us, and possibly 
even with the European Commision itself.


Although the legislation includes an exclusion for non-commercial Open 
Source software, its impact on commercial products and services based on 
Open Source software is not entirely clear. This issue has a direct 
impact on our larger community (especially commercial users) and those 
who fund Debian work, making it important for us to consider our 
official position on the matter.


A longer description, along with the current proposal of legal text and 
annexes are available on the EC website:


https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/library/cyber-resilience-act

Last weekend at FOSDEM, there were a few short presentations on the 
topic, along with a panel discussion which dives a bit deeper into the 
topic:


https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/cyber_resilience/

The OSI is maintaining a list of public responses to the CRA from Open 
Source projects:


https://blog.opensource.org/the-ultimate-list-of-reactions-to-the-cyber-resilience-act/

As the Debian Project Leader, I would like to form a team to assist with 
evaluating this and creating a formal response, if necessary. If you are 
interested in being part of this team, please reach out to me off-list.


Other than that, feel free to share your thoughts or discuss it further 
on this thread.


-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developer: snd

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to Dennis Braun , who has completed the 
NM process and is now a full

project member and an uploading Debian Developer.

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_0xB01D1A72AC8DC9A1.asc
Description: OpenPGP public key


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: anupa, gibmat, tinodidriksen, arun

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Anupa Ann Joseph 
* Mathias Gibbens 
* Tino Didriksen 
* Arun Kumar Pariyar 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader






OpenPGP_0xB01D1A72AC8DC9A1.asc
Description: OpenPGP public key


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: DNS records for the Debian Academy

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Hi Dashamir

On 2022/09/30 12:28, Dashamir Hoxha wrote:

If Debian Academy wants to restart their efforts and wants a machine
with Moodle and academy.debian.net 
pointing to it, all that is needed is a friendly ping with that
information to the DD who has been managing it during the first
iteration (which is me).


We have had discussions on the mailing list, we have had several 
meetings, where have you been? What kind of ping do you need?


I think some more patience and understanding about how Debian works 
might go a long way in making this easier for you.


Any DD can set up a subdomain on debian.net (as per 
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianNetDomains) - all that Dominik was saying 
is that he registered academy.debian.net before, so, he is the one 
person who is able to point it to a new location if needed (so, he's 
actually trying to help you here).


-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developers: emorrp1, abraham and welcome back tolimar

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Phil Morrell 
* Abraham Raji 

Also, welcome back to Alexander Reichle-Schmehl , who has 
returned from retirement.


Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: arnaudr, talau

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Arnaud Rebillout 
* Marcos Talau 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: rinni, sakirnth

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Philip Rinn 
* Sakirnth Nagarasa 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

Covering visa fees as part of flights+accommodation expenses for events

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Debianites

There are likely a few different lists that this mail could be 
applicable: bursaries@debconf.o, debconf@ debconf-team@, etc. I chose 
this list to minimize cross-posting and since this could affect policies 
for all our events (not just DebConf) and it's easy to point people 
here. On that note, please don't cross-post.


For DebConf, the bursary policy has varied year-on-year when it comes to 
visas. For some events, visas were completely covered, while for others, 
visas weren't to give more people a chance to attend (where the budget 
was more limited).


This had mixed results, for one, people who had their visa's covered in 
the past may have been surprised to learn that this time round they 
suddenly had to pay $100-200 that they thought would have been covered.


Furthermore, visa requirements tend to affect people from less 
privileged countries the most. If we're serious about diversity, I think 
that we should include covering the visa fee if we offer 
travel+accommodation by default, and that this should be the default for 
DebConf going forward, and ideally for all Debian events.


I realise I have some bias here, I myself come from a country where I 
need a visa nearly everywhere I want to travel to, but I do think that 
including visa fees by default will help making Debian easier to 
contribute to for people who come from such countries, and ultimately 
have a small role in helping us expand to more areas and improve our 
diversity.


I don't think this needs to be a GR per sé, but I'd like to hear the 
views of others on this, and I hope that we can garner enough consensus 
so that we can just go ahead and implement this in our future bursary 
policies.


-Jonathan


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developer: a-wai

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to Arnaud Ferraris , who has 
completed the NM process and is now a full

project member and an uploading Debian Developer.

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Can the Debian Project ever fall?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2022/06/07 06:48, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

Thing is, Debian is living in a wonderful environment and "steals"
right and left (and is "stolen from"), courtesy of the free software
idea. And we're all richer for that!


Well, the views of people (or even Debian developers (or even the DPL)) 
on this list don't necessarily reflect the views of the entire project. 
But I for one can tell you that I value the work that Arch, Alpine, Red 
Hat, Ubuntu, etc does, and hope that the positive relationship and areas 
where we can contribute together (examples: lts kernels, reproducible 
builds, that kind of stuff) continues to happen and expand so that there 
are more areas we can work on together and duplicate less work.


As for the future of Debian, I consider it a very young project, some 
people consider it old because it's one of the distros that's been 
around along time, but we're still going through teething problems, and 
so is the software industry as a whole, if you'd compare us to the motor 
industry, I think we're just about transitioning out of the Model T Ford 
era right now, the future of software is exciting and I think the pace 
of development is going to increase to the point where in a few years, 
we could easily clump together the computers we have today along with 
the ones from the 90's.


As for Debian, I think we're either going to figure out how to adapt and 
move faster, and play a bigger role in the world of software, or another 
Debian is going to come along with similar values that's more organised 
and does it instead.


-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developer: kaliko

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to Geoffroy Youri Berret , who has 
completed the NM process and is now a full

project member and an uploading Debian Developer.

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: dank, hntourne

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* nick black 
* Henry-Nicolas Tourneur 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2022/03/24 15:02, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Dr. Bas Wijnen - 24.03.22, 10:50:47 CET:

There was work to be done. It has been done. The result is that
Norbert was sanctioned. Please accept that and stop pretending that
the debate is still ongoing.

Just one thing: There is no pretending there.

This thread clearly shows it. The Debian community is not unequivocally
sure, i.e. in agreement, about all of this.


The fact is, Norbert's DD status has been removed, he's no longer a 
Debian Developer, he no longer has a @debian.org email address, he no 
longer has voting rights within the project, etc. It's not a 
time-limited removal (despite Adam's assertion that it's a temporary ban).


There are some that were a bit confused (thinking Norbert had a complete 
ban, they may have been confusing Norbert with our statement[1] on 
Daniel Pocock last year). And there are some who call it a demotion 
(which is incorrect, this isn't just about upload rights, and some DAM 
members have asked to stop calling it that exactly because it causes 
some confusion).


So, echoing what Bas said, please stop pretending that this is some kind 
of ongoing discussion or decision that's going on, it's not. Norbert 
hasn't been a project member since 2021-11-23, this was after being a DD 
since 2019-03-22 again following his previous suspension. And, as I've 
stated before, we're not going to allow him to continue to either attack 
the project or its members, especially using the project's 
infrastructure doing so.


-Jonathan

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Adam

On 2022/03/23 15:51, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 08:38:02AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:

Can we delete him from planet?

Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!

>

I went bold and reverted this removal; the detailed reason why and the
Planet rules I believe Jonathan has breached are in the commit message.


I'm not going to engage in a commit war here. Instead, I'm calling on 
Planet admins to take what they consider appropriate action here.


Norbert has continued his poor behaviour after requests, warnings, being 
suspended, more requests, etc until he was kicked out of the project. If 
someone's behavior is bad enough to get kicked out of the project, their 
feed should really be removed from planet at that time too.


I would really like to make it through a week without having to read 
complaints about Norbert, and I'm not going to tolerate any further 
abuse from him towards either the project or its members.


-Jonathan

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2022/03/23 09:37, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:

So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some silly 
remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?


No, but I don't want people to keep feeling dread and wonder what he's 
going to say every time he blogs, and he's not being constructive, he 
hasn't been for a while, and this is by no means just about his last 
remarks, but about patterns of behaviour that he has had no interest in 
changing.


If you wish to still follow his blog for some reason, you can still 
subscribe directly, but at this point it doesn't belong on Planet Debian.


-Jonathan

Re: Banning Norbert Preining from planet.d.o

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Thomas

On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:

In his latest post, Norbert wrote:

"most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send 
your thanks to da-mana...@debian.org!)"


I find it not acceptable because it's written as if da-manager are the 
only persons responsible for it. He of course didn't mention that he 
appealed, and that a vast majority rejected his appeal. Once more, 
Norbert fails to recognize his own mistakes, and blame the others, 
namely the account managers.


I don't want to read more of such [censored], as obviously, he will 
continue if we let him.


I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay close 
attention but noticed at least one post recently where he blames 
politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think blaming DAM 
when they only did their job on planet is quite horrible too.



Can we delete him from planet?


Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!

-Jonathan

Re: (Lack of) GDPR compliance in Debian

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Adrian

On 2022/03/12 17:23, Adrian Bunk wrote:

Is it SPI that is liable for penalies of up to 20 Million Euro and
compensation claims, or is it individual team members who are personally
liable for penalies of up to 20 Million Euro and compensation claims?

If this is unclear, the easiest way for anyone who wants to take legal
action is to target a natural person.


It's not 100% clear to me, but from what I understand having had some 
informal conversations with experts in this field (we should ideally 
speak get some more information from legal experts on this topic), it 
would fall on individual members, unless a TO has en explicit contract 
with someone.


It's one of a few important reasons why we need to look at incorporating 
Debian, I wanted to push for that during the last year, but during the 
release and the last 1.5 GRs didn't seem like an ideal time for it. I'll 
also provide some more details and thoughts on this on -vote over the 
next week, but I believe this is something important to pursue for the 
project regardless of who serves as DPL for the next term.


-Jonathan

Re: Discussion idea for how DAM/CT/etc. could work

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Russ

On 2022/02/21 22:27, Russ Allbery wrote:

I've been posting a lot on back and forth philosophical discussions, from
which it's probably hard to extract a clear idea of what I'm arguing for.
I've also gotten a few things entirely backwards, and understand a few
things better than before the discussion.  So in the interest of trying to
make all this more concrete and constructive, here's my current mental
idea of what I'd ideally want.


Thanks for putting your thoughts together, and sorry for not responding 
to it yet, please don't take that as a lack of enthusiasm.


Myself, and probably many others on this list are still reeling of shock 
following all the current world events. (my guess is that you've 
probably assumed as much).


As much as I'd like to get the GR done and dusted so that we can move on 
to some other important GRs that people have been considering, I think 
it's also important that we be gentle on everyone in these times, all 
our problems in Debian are relatively small on the world scale, and 
we'll get to them sooner or later.


So, to anyone who might be reading this, consider this a call to 
everyone to be kind and patient for both this GR, and in Debian right 
now in general.


Thanks and keep well,

-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developer: vilmar

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to Francisco Vilmar Cardoso Ruviaro 
, who has completed the NM process and is now a full project 
member and an uploading Debian Developer.


Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Steve

Thanks for putting together this summary!

I'd like for us to channel our discussions into something that can lead 
to positive actions, and relatively soon, rather than it dragging on too 
long and then fizzing out as it has happened in the past.


Some of the deep dive discussions oh philosophy can be useful for this, 
up to a point, but it would be great to tackle some of the problems we 
have in the community that we already have wide consensus on that it 
needs solving.


Not sure what the best approach to this is, and I'm open to more 
suggestions, but how about we compile a list of major topics/issues, and 
then do some poll to rank them and then take them from the top?


The summary contains so many topics that I think some additional 
focus/steering might help us get better results.


Thoughts?

-Jonathan

Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2022/02/21 16:40, Scott Kitterman wrote:

On February 21, 2022 12:56:43 PM UTC, Jonathan Carter  wrote:

On 2022/02/21 14:40, Scott Kitterman wrote:

I didn't intend to communicate that it was a final step.  I think we agree.  A 
DAM warning, as you said, indicates someone is on a path to suspension or 
expulsion.  I don't have a problem with this.  What bothers me is trying to 
pretend it's something less that's not a big deal.

By that logic becoming a DD is a potential step in getting suspended or
expelled. It's not the warning that gets people kicked out, it's the
continued poor behaviour. If a person takes their DAM warning (and
likely at that point requests from other DDs) seriously, then it doesn't
have to become a big deal.

No.

It sounds to me like you are claiming that there's no change in the threshold 
for being removed due to the previous warning(s) and that's just not true.


Not at all, but it's different than the disciplinary process that you 
have listed out in your previous mail. In the disciplinary process that 
you listed, one type of warning explicitly escalated to the next one 
which eventually leads to you getting fired. In Debian, we don't have 
such a process laid out. Currently, it might be that one person gets 3 
different warnings for different problems that they resolved and then 
it's never an issue again, and in another case, if someone really 
crosses a bad line, they could be kicked out without a warning all together.


Now, that of course doesn't mean that a DAM warning isn't without 
weight, but it counts a lot less on their CV than their actions that 
would have lead up to it.


-Jonathan

Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2022/02/21 14:40, Scott Kitterman wrote:

I didn't intend to communicate that it was a final step.  I think we agree.  A 
DAM warning, as you said, indicates someone is on a path to suspension or 
expulsion.  I don't have a problem with this.  What bothers me is trying to 
pretend it's something less that's not a big deal.


By that logic becoming a DD is a potential step in getting suspended or 
expelled. It's not the warning that gets people kicked out, it's the 
continued poor behaviour. If a person takes their DAM warning (and 
likely at that point requests from other DDs) seriously, then it doesn't 
have to become a big deal.


-Jonathan

Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2022/02/21 07:06, Scott Kitterman wrote:

Currently a DAM warning is a suspension/expulsion with deferred execution.


I don't believe that's quite accurate, a DAM warning isn't necessarily 
meant as a final warning, it's a larger prod for an individual to course 
correct their behaviour.


If an individual chooses to continue being disrespectful to other people 
after general requests and then also from one or more formal warnings 
from DAM, then I have little sympathy for them if they are kicked out of 
the project after they continue with abusive behaviour.


The technical issues we take on in Debian is already challenging enough 
that the last thing we need to do is to enable abusive people to stick 
around and hijack our causes and continue to distract from the actual 
issues we collectively care about.


That doesn't mean that there isn't problems to fix, some people have 
expressed concern that concentration of power with DAM is too much, DAM 
themselves have expressed that they have too much responsibility and 
don't want it, and want to focus on account management itself rather 
than having to be responsible for community management in addition to that.


So we do need to discuss and figure out what our ideal community 
processes should look like and who should be responsible for things like 
warnings. Should it be from the community team? A newly formed team? I'm 
against it being a DPL responsibility and it should really be delegated 
to a team instead of just resting on one person.


I 
think every non-government job I've had had a discipline process that went:


1.  Verbal warning.
2.  Written warning.
3.  You're fired.


Perhaps that could be used as a starting point. A process needs to be 
fair, but it also needs to be efficient, and the action taken should be 
in line with the offense. If someone, for example, starts issuing death 
threats and starts physically hurting people, we would need to have a 
process available to take quick action.


Also, I do think that people can improve, and I like to think that I've 
improved in many ways even just as a human being since becoming involved 
with free software 20 years ago. I hope that our processes will also 
take that into account and have some leeway for people to grow and 
improve over time, but there is a hard line that gets crossed when 
transgressions get in the way of people doing their work and they feel 
unsafe participating in the community, and when that happens, swift 
action will continue to remain necessary.


-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developer: tar

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to Gürkan Myczko , who has completed 
the NM process and is now a full

project member and an uploading Debian Developer.

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

Welcome new Debian Developer: bage

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to Bastian Germann , who has completed the 
NM process and is now a full

project member and an uploading Debian Developer.

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: sophieb, creekorful

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

* Sophie Brun 
* Aloïs Micard 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader




OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Debian and GitLab Open Source Partnership

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2021/07/26 20:27, Ansgar wrote:

Obviously packages in non-free don't need to comply with the DFSG


Indeed they don't, because non-free isn't formally part of Debian.

-Jonathan

Re: Debian and GitLab Open Source Partnership

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Ansgar

On 2021/07/26 15:50, Ansgar wrote:

It is indeed very explicit about including non-free packages if
possible:

+---
| We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of the packages in
| these areas and determine if they can distribute the packages on
| their CDs.
+---

I believe the licenses of most firmware should pose no problem for
their inclusion on Debian's CD images.


The text you quoted covers 3rd party distributors who wish to include 
the firmware on media that they would distribute (which would not be 
considered official Debian media either).


For official media, it would go against #1 of the SC and (depending on 
the exact firmware) at least #2 and #3 of the DGSG.


-Jonathan

Re: Debian and GitLab Open Source Partnership

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Marc

On 2021/07/26 12:05, Marc Haber wrote:
>> Debian as a project actively promoting open core software would be quite 
>> a change since so far Debian was the major distribution pushing the most 
>> for a system with only free software as defined by the Debian Free 
>> Software Guidelines.
>
> I agree. As long as we still ship installation DVDs that won't cleanly
> install on the majority of end-user workstation hardware and even on a
> sizeable portion of server hardware, call this a feature and dismiss the
> working DVD image as "unofficial and not part of Debian proper" this
> looks at least a bit skewed. 

Do you mind explaining your statement?

As far as shipping non-free software/firmware/drivers are concerned, the
Debian Free Software Guides and Social Contract is very explicit about
what we can do in what we call Debian. It's a very far stretch to
compare DFSG free software, which the upstream also has non-free
versions of, to including non-free software on any kind of installation
media.

-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developers: felix, emollier, wagner, dswarbrick

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

 * Félix Sipma 
 * Étienne Mollier 
 * Hanno Wagner 
 * Daniel Swarbrick 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: roehling, ftobich, paelzer, deltaone

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

 * Timo Röhling 
 * Fabio Augusto De Muzio Tobich 
 * Christian Ehrhardt 
 * Patrick Franz 

Also, congratulations to Toawa who is now a Debian Developer with full
access rights.

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2021/04/12 18:41, Michael Stone wrote:
> Marxists? Maoists? Stalinists? Anarchists? Zionists? Anti-zionists?
> Militant Quebec nationalists? Royalists? Imperialists? Indigenous
> resistance groups? Ecoterrorists? Anyone that someone calls a terrorist?
> Speciesists? Anti-speciesists? Eugenicists? Any government that comes to
> power via a coup? Any government that maintains power while suppressing
> popular revolt? Anyone who participated in genocide? Anyone descended
> from someone who participated in a genocide? Anyone who denies a
> genocide? Anyone repeating a false genocide narrative? (By the way, you
> had better be very, very careful about creating the appearance that
> debian (via the DPL) is taking a position on some of those, because you
> could get debian banned in various places if you say the wrong thing.)

That's purely up to DAM, and while there aren't any extensive background
checks, I can tell you that they're pretty good at spotting some red
flags (that other DDs can also raise with DAM during someone's NM process).

> The idea that "nazis" or "fascists" represent the full spectrum of what
> can go wrong in human systems, or that understanding complex and
> emotional conflicts is as simple as "blame the nazis" is simply wrong.
> I'd go so far as to posit that the only common element in extremist
> ideologies is the certainty that their own beliefs and tactics are both
> superior to their opponents', and unimpeachable. I'd further posit that
> it's possible to have extremist positions on any side of any issue
> humans can argue about, and also that it's generally impossible to
> identify a specific point on a continuum of beliefs at which a position
> changes from "reasonable disagreement" to "extremism".

It was clearly just one example, one that admittedly gets overused
because it's easy and lazy. And sure, there are all kinds of extremists,
although there are especially those who are most problematic in society
and in our communities.

> The idea that debian should or even could create a list of acceptable
> and unacceptable beliefs in all facets of any participant's life is
> preposterous. All we can reasonably do is require certain standards of
> behavior within forums we control or which are immediately adjacent.

It's really not all that preposterous, I think (judging by the long list
you posted in the first paragraph) that you're jumping to the incorrect
conclusions on what I'd like to achieve with expanding our CoC.

> Even from people who have declared that their opponent is a "nazi".

I would consider calling another person a "nazi" to be CoC violation
even on it's first point. Calling someone a nazi because you don't agree
with someone is certainly very disrespectful and highly inappropriate.

-Jonathan

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2021/04/12 17:30, Thaddeus H. Black wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:56:34PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
>> Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep
>> those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here,
>> no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.
> 
> Would you care to put that to a vote?  I think you'll lose -- and if
> you win, you'll fracture the Project.

Whether I'd like to put that to a vote? Good question! I'll have to come
back to you on that. At the very least, I hope that we get to the point
where we can have better information gathering and decision making
within the project, and that if we do need to make a formal,
project-wide poll, that we have something better than a GR as our only
blunt instrument for that.

> I say it with all respect, Jonathan, as someone who admires you and
> judges you to have been a tactful, prudent, competent, energetic,
> effective Leader; but politicization of Debian has gone far enough.  We
> are not going to bar persons who identify with fascist doctrine or any
> other doctrine from the Project if I have anything to say about it.

*blush* uhm, that's a lot of nice words from someone I haven't even met
yet, so thanks for cushioning the blow.

I'm pretty sure that you're familiar with the paradox of tolerance, so
I'm not going to bore or patronize you by explaining it, but at some
point we have to draw a line at what kind of people we allow inside our
community. Thankfully, to the best of my knowledge, we have no neo-nazis
or similar extremists within our community. I'd like to keep it that
way. Sometimes people with opposing views are valuable, but other times
they are just destructive. Bigots in all shapes and form will ultimately
only hurt the project if we allow them in. And ultimately, I guide my
decisions on what's best for the project, not by the feelings of those
who don't care about the feelings of others.

> Someone might reply by citing the Code of Conduct
> and Diversity Statement, but such citations do not impress me.  The Code
> and Statement were adopted to smooth the Project's work, not to menace
> political undesirables, nor to empower the easily offended.  In my
> strong opinion, Diversity includes everyone, even, especially fascists.
> And do you know what?  The text of the Diversity Statement agrees with
> me, unless one were determined to twist its adverb "constructively" to
> authorize mischievous *deconstruction* of the Project along
> ideological lines.

It's true that the CoC does indeed state that everyone is welcome,
without mentioning exceptions, but the only kind of people I would
exclude are the people who by their very beliefs and way of living,
already violate the CoC. I don't think that's very controversial,

> For all I know, a handful of Members might be determined to do just
> that.  I hope not.  If so, though, then I'll warrant that the
> deconstructors are in the minority, and a small minority at that.  Given
> an up-or-down vote, they would lose.

Those of us who are working to fix the problems in our community are
doing so because we want to grow our community, not because we want to
deconstruct anything. We're tired of seeing people leave because of
mysogyny or similar offenses, we want to build Debian into something
much bigger and be inclusive of all walks of like while doing so.

> Meanwhile, regarding the GR, I have no comment except that I have cast
> my vote, same as everyone else.  However, your statement as quoted above
> cannot be supported.

Well, I suppose we fundamentally disagree then. Thanks for voting, though.

> The time for the tail to wag the dog is over.  It's time to get back to
> the open source.

Despite the turmoil in the organisation we so deeply care about (and we
do care about the FSF), Debian has been making good strides. There's the
FTP team that did stellar work ahead of freeze which helped smooth out
our initial freeze stages. I've made some gentle pushes in a few areas
and our community has responded so well that it even seems likely that
we may have the release for bullseye by the end of May[1], which is
quite good if you consider that buster was released in July with similar
freeze dates preseeding that. There's been great work all around the
project over the last here. The mentors site has had a big overhaul,
fixing many of its issues and modernising the stack, that site is
crucial for helping new contributors with getting their packages in to
Debian. Debian Trends have been updated, the Debian Screenshots site has
a completely revamped look and feel, our front page on our website has
had a re-design (with further changes planned to make it look really
snazzy), we gained preseed.debian.net, a new service to list all preseed
options, we've done experiments to re-build the archive with clang,
worked on machin

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2021/04/12 15:37, Michael Stone wrote:
>> Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep
>> those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here,
>> no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.
> 
> Does that go for all extremist ideologies or just the one?

Probably all of them. I don't have anything specific in mind, but my
guess is that there would be some edge cases where we disagree on what
would constitute an extremist ideology, I've thought that we should
probably amend our CoC at some point to explain what kind of people are
/not/ welcome in Debian, but that's a matter for another GR :)

-Jonathan

Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2021/04/11 01:28, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the
> Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions,
> fetishes and whatever else. But I expect that people keep these things out of
> Debian and especially the public discussion as far as possble. So long as
> Debian is not getting involved, it absolutely does not matter to us what
> people do outside of Debian. Let's focus on creating the best distribution
> instead.

Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep
those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here,
no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.

-Jonathan



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: leepen, jcfp, sgmoore, stephanlachnit, lyknode, gunnarhj

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

 * Mark Hindley 
 * Jeroen Ploemen 
 * Scarlett Moore 
 * Stephan Lachnit 
 * Baptiste Beauplat 
 * Gunnar Hjalmarsson 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


pgp88eE0dxmgP.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Welcome new Debian Developers: pgt, deiv

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

 * Pierre Gruet 
 * David Suárez Rodríguez 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


pgpmOV7zOWof4.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Question

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Nyle

On 2021/02/04 09:00, Nyle Davis wrote:
> Sirs;

Debian contributors are made up of a large variety of people and we try
to use inclusive language as far as possible.

> I was using Kubuntu 14.04 LTS which had what I called "Super Windows"
> where any window could be nested within any other window and be shown
> by "Super Tabs", such as with browser tabs.  This existed in 14.04 but
> is not available in later visions.  I liked this capability so am
> searching for it.  I started by asking KDE, the answer was "Not us!",
> Then I asked Ubuntu/Canonical again the answer was
> "Not us!",  They actually referred me to you, so did this "Super
> Windows" originate with Debian?
> 
> If so is it a separate installable package?

Sounds very unlikely, we don't like to carry big patches, and would
rather submit changes like that upstream where they belong. Might have
been a 3rd party plugin that Kubuntu included at the time, your best bet
might be to install Kubuntu 14.04 somewhere and do some diving.

-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developers: sten, nilesh

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

 * Nicholas D Steeves 
 * Nilesh Patra 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

- -Jonathan, Debian Project Leader
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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=EOQx
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Welcome new Debian Developers: sten, nilesh

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

 * Nicholas D Steeves 
 * Nilesh Patra 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader


pgpjmNfUROiBf.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Welcome new Debian Developer: mwei

[Jonathan Carter]

Hey Yao Wei

On 2020/12/26 04:31, Yao Wei wrote:
> Technically I am not a new Developer, but I changed my status from
> non-uploading to uploading.

Ah yes, great!

> Thanks for the NM team giving me courage to continue, and especially
> praveen and tobi (who was the AM of my first NM) taking me through the
> NM process, and several people in Chinese Debian community, especially
> the person bearing the ID "dfceaef", that keeps pushing me when I was
> bothering boyuan for sponsor uploading.
> 
> I may have doubts of my packaging procedures so I may bombard people
> here to review my packaging, asking where the documents are etc.
> 
> I am also consider making videos or livestreams for packaging, learning
> and stuffs, similar to what Jonathan was doing.

Sounds good, shout if you need anything!

-Jonathan

Welcome new Debian Developer: mwei

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to Ming-ting Yao Wei (mwei), who has
completed the NM process and is now a Debian Developer (uploading) and
along with that, a full project member.

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

--
   ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
   ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
   ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
   ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.


pgpCSXQ2v2GP2.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Funding Debian projects with money from Freexian's LTS service

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Raphaël

On 2020/11/10 12:05, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> So I thought about it and I made a proposal to the paid LTS contributors
> that has been accepted: every month we are putting 10% of the LTS funding
> aside to be able to fund larger tasks/projects. We will regularly seek
> project proposals, review them and pay someone to implement the proposals
> that have been retained.

This sounds great, thanks for the initiative!

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Welcome new Debian Developers: jvalleroy, deller

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

 * Helge Deller 
 * James Valleroy 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

- -Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

- -- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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=NCRh
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Tobias

On 2020/10/13 08:45, Tobias Augspurger wrote:
> 1. First of all these emails of course have an unsubscribe button. 

I can tell you that if it's opt-out instead of opt-in, then that would
make it a non-starter for Debian.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Jonas

On 2020/10/12 15:54, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> Maybe Tobias can give us a more complete description on how 
>> LibreSelery would work.
>
> Probably he can, yes.  Is he subscribed here?

Yes, he subscribed this afternoon.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/10/12 14:56, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> So, if I understand well, the idea is to implement a way to have a
> "donate" button on salsa which would rely on their work in background to
> loadbalance the share between developers of a specific project?
> 
> If so, then I feel bad about this idea. Sure, the people paying wouldn't
> be the project and hence its philosophy wouldn't be compromised in its
> core, but still we would start advertising for payment, which is a huge
> step in a way I fear the outcome.

>From what I understand, part of their plans is to implement that for
GitLab. I agree that we might not want to enable something like that on
Salsa, I suppose that would depend on exact details (like, if it's just
something in an API as apposed to having donate button scattered all
over, then I don't think it's intrusive at all).

Maybe Tobias can give us a more complete description on how LibreSelery
would work.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Fwd: protontypes wants to support the Debian Project with LibreSelery

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Debianites, Tobias from protontypes.eu asked that I forward this
message along. From what I understand, they want to make it easier to
fund individuals who work on free software.

He also confirmed that they're working on integrating their system with
GitLab, which needed some more work because it didn't have the "donate"
framework that GitHub uses.

If you have any questions, you can follow up here, I told them that they
can subscribe to the list to follow up.

-Jonathan

On 2020/09/24 19:35, Tobias Augspurger wrote:
> We are a group of motivated developers that created a new concept for
> funding distribution in FOSS without launching another platform.
> LibreSelery is a AGPL licensed tool that allows you to create
> customized, transparent, independent, and automated funding of FOSS
> projects.
> After our launch 2 weeks ago we are looking for feedback and early
> adopts in the community.
> 
> I have been using many Debian technologies and would like to show you
> how we distribute my donation of 1000€ on a Debian project that is
> mirrored on Github. 
> LibreSelery also allows you to include the contributors of your
> dependencies into the funding. They will receive an email from Coinbase
> with a "Thank You" note that you can define.
> This could help you to attract new developers.
> 
> At the moment we are just supporting Github but Debian would be a
> perfect partner to start with Gitlab support. Early support for Gitlab
> would also help us keep the software architecture generic.
> Do you think LibreSelery could be interesting for Debian?
> https://github.com/protontypes/libreselery
> 
> 
> Some background information on our project and organization.
> https://protontypes.eu/blog/2020/09/02/launch-of-protontypes/
> 
> 
> Kind regards
> Tobias

Welcome new Debian Developers

[Jonathan Carter]

Greetings!

Congratulations and welcome to the following new Debian
Developers who have completed the NM process and are now full
project members:

 * Marcos Fouces 
 * Benda Xu 
 * HAYASHI Kentaro 
 * Joseph Nahmias 

Thank you for your contributions to Debian!

-Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: Debian.net Team

[Jonathan Carter]

Hey Lucas

On 2020/09/01 16:05, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 01/09/20 at 15:29 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
>> On 2020/09/01 09:14, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
>>> 2. Keeping our important services sanely maintained. Your proposal is to
>>> sanitize *.debian.net a bit. I wonder if instead, we should have a list
>>> of requirements for *.debian.org that does not include "hosted on a
>>> machine managed by DSA". People would then continue to use debian.net as
>>> they do currently, but once the service grows to something really
>>> useful, it gets a review to ensure that it is maintainable, and can move
>>> to the debian.org without necessarily putting more load on DSA.
>> That's really a discussion you'll want to have with DSA, and it doesn't
>> seem that the project is in a position currently to add any more load to
>> the DSA team at this point.
>
> How does it add more load on the DSA team?

If you intend to make decisions or set up additional policy regarding
how debian.org subdomains are used, then you're going to have to involve
the DSA with that.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: Debian.net Team

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/09/01 09:14, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> 2. Keeping our important services sanely maintained. Your proposal is to
> sanitize *.debian.net a bit. I wonder if instead, we should have a list
> of requirements for *.debian.org that does not include "hosted on a
> machine managed by DSA". People would then continue to use debian.net as
> they do currently, but once the service grows to something really
> useful, it gets a review to ensure that it is maintainable, and can move
> to the debian.org without necessarily putting more load on DSA.

That's really a discussion you'll want to have with DSA, and it doesn't
seem that the project is in a position currently to add any more load to
the DSA team at this point.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: Debian.net Team

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/09/01 15:18, Sam Hartman wrote:
> I think it would be fine if the same team handled both aspects of the
> proposal, although I'd prefer that the name be different than debian.net
> team if that's the case.

Sure, the name doesn't matter at all that much to me. Any other
suggestions for a name for a team for "Help co-ordinating hosting of
services that's not managed by DSA"?

thanks,

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Debian.net Team

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Debianites

I'd like to talk about an idea that needs some more thought, but that
has been floating in my head for a while and I think it could benefit
from some further discussion. Ideally we could've had a BoF about it
during DebConf, but my plate was full already.

We have a bunch of services currently hosted on the debian.net domain.
There's a list of these domains at:

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianNetDomains

The services ran under the debian.net domain are typically run by
individual Debian Developers or small teams, and range from a toy
service to something that's short lived or even a service that's even
considered important and used daily by people in the project.

Some people have argued that some of these services should move to DSA,
but, even if we feel that a service is important, it's still not the
responsibility of DSA. DSA takes ownership of the core Debian
infrastructure, which is already a huge undertaking. For interest, you
can get a list of DSA managed machines here:

https://db.debian.org/machines.cgi

While the current structure for debian.net services allow a lot of
flexibility and very little admin to get something set up (you basically
just send one email to set up DNS), I do think that the project can
benefit if we formalize things a bit more.

At the same time, a regular theme in my DPL work is that someone is
looking to find hosting for a project and not having much luck. Last
night I learned of a DD who's been paying more than $200 a year for
hosting on their own account. While this is a manageable amount for
Debian to pay in a year, it can be quite a lot for an individual, and
I'd rather have us have a better story for that.

We have some lists of hosting providers for projects like those listed on:


https://wiki.debian.org/ServicesHosting#Outside_the_Debian_infrastructure

But what I've found is that people find it cumbersome to figure out who
to contact, how to contact them and whether the details listed there is
even still valid (there are also services like fosshost.org that are
Debian friendly that should probably be added to that list).

So, what I'm considering is something along the lines of:

1. Let things continue to work the way they're working now for the most
part (no need for any disruptive changes in this proposal)

2. Create a new team to organise some aspects of everything under
debian.net, which would include:

  * Keeping the domain list on the above mentioned
DebianNet page maintained on a regular basis
  * Maintain external contacts/relationships with
people and providers who we have special arrangements
with
  * Help maintain the list of hosting providers listed
on the wiki page above
  * Have accounts with the major hosting providers so that
they can also create new instances whenever there's a
new request from a developer

There's more ideas that could follow too, but aren't essential right
now. For example, hosting some backup service for all these services (we
really have no idea if the people running them keep backups, or where
they keep them) and maybe assigning some emergency contacts who have
login credentials for at least important (debian.net) services seem like
a good idea.

That's it in a nutshell for now. Any thoughts... or volunteers?

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: BSP Reimbursements

[Jonathan Carter]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512


Hi Debianites

On 2019/10/02 16:43, Sam Hartman wrote:
> TL;DR: Do we want BSP organizers to take on the responsibility of
> batching together travel reimbursement requests.
>
> HI.  A while back, I suspended the automatic approval of reimbursement
s
> for attending BSPs.  You can still ask for approval for attending a
> BSP, you can't just send me a reimbursement request with no approval.
>
> We had a bit of discussion about how things ought to/might work here.
> Holger proposed that it would make more sense for the people running
> BSPs to batch approvals kind of like we do for sprints and
> mini-DebConfs.
>
> If we want to do things that way, no action is required on my part.  I
> am very willing to approve such budgets, and even to amend such budget
s
> if it looks like more people are coming.  But I do actually want to se
e
> them ahead of time, just so I know what's going on.
>
> So, if we're generally happy with BSP organizers putting together a
> travel budget and handling who will get reimbursed, then I think the
> next step is to write up how to do that on the wiki.
> I'd appreciate it if someone would volunteer to do that.
> If you get text together, please drop treasu...@debian.org a note aski
ng
> for review (that also reaches me).
>
> Asking BSP organizers to help with this is great from the DPL side.
> The only concern is if it pushes  the effort involved in organizing a
> BSP up too much so people don't want to do it.
>
> If that ends up being the case I'm happy with some sort of automatic
> approval process for DDs attending BSPs (and easy approval for other
> contributors when that makes sense).
> But let's figure out if we want BSP organizers to handle this first.

Not sure exactly what bearing this email still has. As far as I
understand it, this affected the policy of the DPL at the time based on
current circumstances. It was not coded into any policy or in any
procedures.

However, since some feel that the above is still in affect, let me take
this opportunity to state that any implications that the above email had
on reimbursement policy no longer has any effect whatsoever.

Having said that, I actually agree with Sam that we need better policies
around this. Moray and myself are looking at rebooting a local team
support/help/bootstrapping/admin/etc group, which may well be a
delegation, and on top of that, might also take on some responsibilities
for local team budgets and approving certain kinds of expenditures (like
BSPs).

If you're interested in helping shape that, and especially if you're
active in a local team already, then please join our BoF session at
DebConf20:

https://debconf20.debconf.org/talks/50-local-teams/

- -Jonathan, Debian Project Leader

- -- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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=SPfh
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Invitation to Open Usage Commons Q

[Jonathan Carter]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512


Hi Debianites

The Google Open Source team and a handful of academic partners are soon
launching a new project called the Open Usage Commons. The Open Usage
Commons will be made up by some Googlers as well as members of the
community (one of them is Allison Randal, who many of us already know
well within Debian).

I had a quick chat with Anne Bertucio (Program manager in the Google
Open Source Program office) and Chris DiBona (Director there), and from
what I understand, the goal is to have a clear, DFSG compatible guide to
trademarks. Google will be transferring the trademarks of Angular,
Gerrit, and Istio to start off the Open Usage Commons work, with the
intention to have the OUC available to other open source projects in the
future.

They wanted to know what how to reach out to the Debian community and
chat about it and answer any questions we might have. I suggested that
we do a call on Jitsi and invite any Debian contributors who are
interested. We'll take some notes and if you can't make the call, you
can ask some follow-up questions afterwards. I also suggested that they
submit a BoF proposal for DebConf20 Online, so if you miss the first
chance, there will be another.

If you'd like to join the call, let me know by email or irc and I'll add
you to the invite with the details. The Q call will take place on 9
July 2020 at 16:00 UTC, but like I said, if you can't make it there will
be notes and a session at DebConf too.

- -Jonathan

- -- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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=swTF
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: FW: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux

[Jonathan Carter]

these issues in Debian helps for all our existing ThinkPad
users too).

> For me the first step would be an understanding that if we propose a
> patch then we're doing it for a good reason and it doesn't sit there for
> a couple of months.

I did another talk over the last weekend in our first ever online
MiniDebConf where I talked about our patch backlog, we definitely want
to get better at this.

> I don't think we're at the stage where you can trust us to merge things
> in without review but longer term I'd hope to be a more trusted
> community member who can be relied on to deliver quality items. How we
> get from here to there is in my mind the challenge - for that we need
> support and I appreciate peoples time is limited and very precious :)

Nice! If you're interested, it would be great for you to join us a full
fledged project member too. That takes a lot of work, but in the
meantime we also have a status called Debian Maintainer where you're
allowed to upload some packages without any supervision before you're a
full Debian Developer.

>>> I think we generally care about the hardware that we have, and that our
>>> employers typically buy and deploy. I think "other people's hardware
>>> problems" will always be less exciting than your own. Usually when more
>>> of the latest hardware starts hitting us personally we tend to care
>>> more. I think part of this is just natural.
>
> Agreed. I'm afraid from a Lenovo preload shipping point of view it has
> to be the latest HW though and that's a challenge.
> If it's any consolation, whilst I have access to a lot of devices I also
> have to fight for some HW access. I don't have an X1C8 yet (my colleague
> doesI'm not bitter ;)) Getting HW where it needs to be is one of the
> big challenges I face generally.

I understand. From a preload point of view, I suppose it's possible to
start off with a subset of laptops that might work well? Or is there a
strong preference from Lenovo to support a wide range from the start (I
noticed that that's what Fedora did, so just wanted to check).


>>> full retail price for their laptops considering how much work they put
>>> in making Debian (and often other Linux systems) run better on it. I've
>>> been considering reaching out to both Lenovo and Dell (and other
>>> manufacturers that are popular or important within the project) to see
>>> if we can get much better pricing for our members, whether they're just
>>> closer to cost or even a little subsidized. Maybe you could shed some
>>> light on this topic too :)
>
> I've kicked off a discussion on this internally. I did actually look
> into this when I joined the team last year but I know more the right
> people to talk to now and Linux is getting a lot more attention
> internally. I'll see what I can do - I think it's a very reasonable
> suggestion.

Fantastic, thanks!

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux

[Jonathan Carter]

 work that these Debian Developers do typically go towards helping
those Lenovo laptops work better with Debian. I understand and feel your
frustrations getting those latest features to work in Debian, but Debian
people have been doing that for decades now, which is great, I'm not
complaining. I like that Debian has run so well on my ThinkPad laptops
for all these years. But, in recent years I've also started to think
that it's kind of horrible and ridiculous that Debian Developers pay
full retail price for their laptops considering how much work they put
in making Debian (and often other Linux systems) run better on it. I've
been considering reaching out to both Lenovo and Dell (and other
manufacturers that are popular or important within the project) to see
if we can get much better pricing for our members, whether they're just
closer to cost or even a little subsidized. Maybe you could shed some
light on this topic too :)

On another note, we sometimes use older laptops not because we're
necessarily stuck with them, but also because we don't want to throw
away/discard perfectly good machines just for the sake of having a new
one, while we could use our older machines and help do a bit to protect
the environment at the same time. My x250 is 5 years old and it's still
adequate for me, and while I often have the itch to buy a new laptop (I
very nearly did buy a friend's 7th gen X1 last week, which he bought
sadly just before he lost his job), but decided to hang on for a Ryzen
based version instead. Sorry, I digress :)

So, we have some people (like me) who use 5 year old (and even older)
laptops and are fine with that, but we also have some developers who are
using really obsolete machines and from the Debian side, I'd like to
make it easier for them to upgrade if we can. Debian can already sponsor
some hardware for developers in need, but personally my vision is that
we can work with a hardware manufacturer to get an already
good/subsidised price that we could perhaps help reduce a bit further as
a benefit for our developers. Over the last weekend we had our first
ever online minidebconf, and in these times being stuck on a core 2 duo
is tough :)

Anyway, I probably overshare but you've put in a lot of thought into
your mail and I thought I'd reply properly too.

> A shout out for Hector Martinez who has been helping me a whole bunch. 
> Without his help I likely would have given up and wouldn't even be reading 
> the threads on this forum. If there are more people like Hector (particularly 
> in kernel, audio and graphics) let me know! 

As I become more aware of your requirements I can help find more Hectors
too :)

> This email took me a long time to write - I'm *very* aware that I'm new to 
> this and don't want to cause offence. Please take all of the above with the 
> recognition that my viewpoint into Debian is still limited and if I've said 
> anything dumb/wrong/offensive let me know so I can learn what I'm missing.

No offense taken whatsoever, Debian Developers are often the biggest
critics of Debian. Not because they want to be mean, but because they
care and want to see things get fixed. Welcome to Debian and I hope that
you'll join us more formally (and perhaps even vice-versa?) in the future!

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Debian, the universal operating system.

Re: Salsa as authentication provider for Debian

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/04/10 13:05, Felix Lechner wrote:
> As a group, we are driving Enrico up the wall. Let's just get rid of
> the old stuff now
...

+1

Enrico, your plans sound very sane and from all the information in these
threads it seems logical for the project to go ahead with it.

What's holding you back at this point? From the initial post from
Bastian it does seem that most stakeholders on the admin side have been
involved and that they may be on board. I know the salsa admins have
been (understandably) reluctant to just jump in on this in the past,
have you heard back from them and are they supportive of your idea for
the reasons you have listed?

This thread has had lots of discussion so far and no one has listed a
single reason against your proposal yet, IMHO if no one is standing in
your way it's time to just go ahead and do it.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Request to Mini DebConf Montreal Organizers: Fight Israel not the DC20 Team

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Sam

On 2020/02/20 15:44, Sam Hartman wrote:
> I really hope that supporting our people doing the work at DC20 is
> uncontroversial.

During DC19 I've spoken about this topic to dozens (as in, literally
dozens) of people who have approached me who care about DebConf and who
have contributed to it over the years. I can assure you that not a
single person has stated anything vaguely against the DC20 team or
against their work, in fact over and over people make it clear that they
like the DC20 and have stated words of support for them, even in the
cases where they don't support aspects of their government.

I can tell you with a great degree of confidence that support for the
DC20 team is entirely uncontroversial and it's really not worth spending
any time worrying about that specific aspect whatsoever.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Request to Mini DebConf Montreal Organizers: Fight Israel not the DC20 Team

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/02/19 21:04, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Then we miss an opportunity for the Montreal organizers to clearly and
> unambiguously say to the world and Debian their fight is with the
> government of Israel not with the DC20 volunteers.
> I end up more disappointed in the world.
> Others in the project feel whatever they feel.

But why? The MiniDCMTL team never made any negative comments about the
DC20 team, no criticism whatsoever, no negative energy, so why are you
framing it in such a way as if they have? In fact there's some overlap
in video team between members of both, and these people generally get
along great, at a dinner during FOSDEM one of the prominent DC20 local
team members caught us up a bit about what's going on with the elections
in Israel and it was nice to openly talk about it. You make it sound
like the MiniDCMTL team have some kind of vendetta or that they're
creating some form of competition here and it's nothing like that.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Announcing miniDebConf Montreal 2020 -- August 6th to August 9th 2020

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Daniel

On 2020/02/18 21:15, Daniel Lange wrote:
>> I haven't publicly said this before, but I believe it was a big mistake:
>>
>>   * Not having a bid committee for that vote
>>   * Making it a private vote
>>   * Not announcing the the DCC would be the bid committee
>>     nor that it would be a private vote
> 
> You have been part of the DCC at the time, just sayin' in case you forgot.

Yep, I've said the privately in the DCC before, I'm not sure what you're
alluding to above.

>> I've brought these up in various private discussions before, and
>> unfortunately it's too late to change that decision without further,
>> possibly worse consequences, but I think the current DebConf committee
>> should strongly consider setting up a bid committee again (even if it
>> largely or mostly overlaps with the DCC, that might just be natural) and
>> keep the bid decision public as it was in prior DebConfs. I've seen
>> people express this on IRC before and I hope they speak up on more
>> formal channels too.
> 
> Translation: I did not get the result I wanted, so I'd like a "bid
> committee" next time in the hope that decisions will be more in line
> with my personal convictions.

Bad translation on your part.

> We held public review meetings for the DC21 bids. You did not care to
> show up for either of them.

That's good, the desire to have it public does not equate to a desire or
need for me to be there. IMO it's just important that this doesn't
happen behind closed doors again like last time.

>> On a purely personal note, I find it in rather poor taste to talk about
>> diversity in the context of having DC in a country with an active
>> apartheid regime.
> 
> Roberto gave you an answer to this already.
> 
> "active apartheid regime" is politically loaded lingo and shows where
> you stand.
> Employing it disqualifies rational arguments, if you had any.

It's really nothing controversial at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy, and if
you manage to find ambiguity in that, Netanyahu makes it very clear
where they stand on this matter:
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702264118/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-them-alone

I'll leave it at that for tonight, I don't want to monopolize -project.
Feel free to take this further in private if you're sincere in
continuing a discussion about this.

-Jonathan
-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Announcing miniDebConf Montreal 2020 -- August 6th to August 9th 2020

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/02/18 20:31, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> Right.  But choosing Brazil for a DebConf venue at a time when it did
> not even have national-level anti-discrimination protection for LGBT
> people[*] was done in good taste and was a victory for diversity?  Sure.

No one said or implied anything like that. Brazil was a whole different
kettle of fish and unfortunately things got even more complicated in the
country after the bid was accepted. In the case of Brazil I think it was
the right choice to go ahead with it, and I believe that it's the right
thing to do to support the DC20 team as well, regardless of where
someone stand about the host country. There's enough people who want to
attend and at this stage it would do more harm to cancel than to go
ahead, so imho the right thing to do is to help them where they need it,
and if you don't want to attend there, then the MiniDC a few weeks
before DC might be a good choice.

-Jonathan
-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Announcing miniDebConf Montreal 2020 -- August 6th to August 9th 2020

[Jonathan Carter]

Hey OdyX

On 2020/02/18 10:43, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
>> I'm quite frustrated, disappointed and angry reading the above.
>>
>> I had expressed a fairly strong discomfort with the anti-DC20 messaging
>> I got from the original contact about Montreal.
> 
> To offer some contrast, although I can agree such introduction _could_ have 
> been left out of the announcement email, I find the phrasing to be honest, 
> transparent, and fair: it is not against Debian, not against DebConf, not 
> against the DebConf Committee. It is merely explaining in full sight their 
> reasons to a) not attend DebConf; b) organize that event at that time.
> 
> Specifically, I find the announcement OK _because_ the event dates do not 
> directly conflict with DebConf20's.

+1 to all of the above. If the dates were on or too close to DC20, I
would not want to attend or support this event in any way. Personally I
would leave the intro out too, but it is honest, and it's the reality.
Having a DebConf in Isreal is inherently political, you can shy way from
that fact or wish it away.

>> In particular, we as a project made a decision about where we were
>> holding DebConf 20.
> 
> I'd rephrase this as "the DebConf committee, as DPL delegates, made a 
> decision 
> about by whom DebConf20 was to be organized and where; this decision has not 
> been overriden by a GR" [0,1].  There's nuance away from "we as a project 
> made 
> a decision".

I haven't publicly said this before, but I believe it was a big mistake:

 * Not having a bid committee for that vote
 * Making it a private vote
 * Not announcing the the DCC would be the bid committee
   nor that it would be a private vote

I've brought these up in various private discussions before, and
unfortunately it's too late to change that decision without further,
possibly worse consequences, but I think the current DebConf committee
should strongly consider setting up a bid committee again (even if it
largely or mostly overlaps with the DCC, that might just be natural) and
keep the bid decision public as it was in prior DebConfs. I've seen
people express this on IRC before and I hope they speak up on more
formal channels too.

>> The above messaging  comes across as a condemnation of what the project
>> has decided to do, rather than something that supports our diversity and
>> compliments DC20 while supporting those who choose not to attend.

On a purely personal note, I find it in rather poor taste to talk about
diversity in the context of having DC in a country with an active
apartheid regime.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: salsa.debian.org down?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/02/12 08:22, Jacob Lifshay wrote:
> Anyone else having trouble?

Here's an announce email with a list of affected machines:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-infrastructure-announce/2020/02/msg0.html

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: salsa.debian.org down?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2020/02/12 08:22, Jacob Lifshay wrote:
> I tried to push to salsa today, only to discover that it wasn't
> responding. I couldn't find any announcements of outages and I tried to
> connect through two independent networks.
> 
> Pinging it seems to work fine.
> 
> Anyone else having trouble?

I read via IRC paste that the storage backends at UBC is down, so the
VMs running there has been shut down. So this means that a whole bunch
of things (nm, salsa, qa, etc) are all down for now.

I'm sure there are some people scrambling around that right now so all
we can really do is be patient.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/12/24 17:01, Martina Ferrari wrote:
> I mean not letting it pass and "not feeding the troll", downright
> denouncing hate speech wherever it appears, in the strongest terms.
> Sometimes that means calling people names or being aggressive, risking a
> mailing list ban, a punch in the street, losing friends. That is what
> I've meant.

I'm glad that someone said this, because more than once before when I
spoke out against some bad behaviour, my irssi lit up with a dozen
messages saying "Don't feed the troll."

I understand the nature of trolls and not wanting to feed them, but it
is entirely possible to denounce them without giving them fuel, even
though it can be like walking a tightrope at times.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Do we still value contributions?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/12/24 20:08, John Goerzen wrote:

> But at the same time, I feel that the project as a whole isn't really
> taking this problem very seriously.

That is true, probably mostly because many people don't really
understand that there is a problem. The NEW queue waits are tough, but
there are also the following which are also often in serious need of
attention:

 * Patches attached to bug reports
 * Request for sponsorships
 * Merge requests

Energy put into all areas like that end up paying for itself because it
helps energize and attract new contributors.

I try to keep up with sponsorship backlogs (making good strides but
can't really keep up), which at the same time adds load to the NEW queue
(11 of my and sponsoree packages stuck in there right now), which I feel
kind of bad for so I've been trying to join as an FTP team trainee too
to help out there (which I should probably try to follow-up again but
that's also been a bit frustrating).

I think many will agree with you that we should do better in all those
areas, especially the NEW queue, but change is difficult and in itself
takes time. In a commercial setting it would probably be easier to
create incentives to motivate staff to do more review kind of work, but
I suppose in Debian it's seen as somewhat unglamorous work and we don't
have many methods to incentivise contributors.

In particular I think it's important to support events like bug
squashing parties because it's one of the few things that we can do, and
encourage things like patch reviews, sponsoring and NEW queue reviews at
these events and maybe even thank all the people who participate in
these on a monthly basis in bits from Debian so that maybe this work can
be highlighted more as something that we do value and might encourage
more people to get involved there.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/12/13 00:31, Norbert Preining wrote:
> please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with
> some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here.
> Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi".

Nothing about Martina's comments there were at all against the CoC, it's
completely factual that hate crimes are committed against trans people
on a scale that can be considered a form of genocide. I learned via
Rhonda's blog[1] last month that 331 trans people were murdered last
year. That's just crazy. I can't imagine what must go on in someone's
head that they hate someone so much about something that they have no
choice over that they want to kill them for it.

[1] https://rhonda.deb.at/blog/2019/11/20

I find your offense to the mere use of words of 'nazi' and 'genocide'
quite bizarre, there's nothing rude or even impolite to using these
words in normal conversation.

> And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
> Debian.
> 
> @listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should be
> warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have no
> place in Debian, either.
 I found that you were much more solidly violating the CoC on this list,
On a recent mail you implied that if someone isn't happy with
transphobes on this list, then it is they who should be free to
leave[2]. That sets a grave tone and your recent messages to this list
exposes your position on these matters more than you probably realise.

[2]
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/2019121309.6424ws6c44q2l...@bulldog.preining.info

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Community Team - where we want to go

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/10/10 02:40, Norbert Preining wrote:
> As "just another group of Debian Developers" I am not sure how you can
> usurp the right to exegesis of the CoC? What about if another group XYZ
> (like the Debian TeX Team) decides that our responsability is
>   Interpreting the Code of Conduct

Yep, any group in Debian can read and interpret the Debian CoC, likely,
probably anyone who ever reads it might have their own interpretation of
the CoC. What the community team is effectively doing here is just
offering a service to do so, they're not imposing an authority of how
every CoC violation should be handled. Instead, if you as part of any
leadership role in Debian (maybe the DPL, maybe a member of a team) are
seeking some feedback, you can use the community team as a sounding
board to get their view on it. At least, that's my understanding.

> Same old wine in new bottles ...

Some wine'ing has gotten old a really long time ago.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Expense Rules for Mini-DebConfs

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/10/03 17:13, Sam Hartman wrote:
> You approached me asking for travel approval.
> I said that I was having a bit of conflict with the treasurer team
> working through some guidelines to apply because of a previous decision
> that I had made.  I asked how big of a problem it would be if I turned
> you down.
> You said that it was not a huge problem.

It wasn't a huge problem. This doesn't mean that there's no problem or
no issues to address here.

> Later after  the discussions with the treasury team concluded I let you
> know that based on my personal feelings and the guidelines we eventually
> came up with, I should have approved your request.

Which guidelines would that be? At the time I understood that it was
mostly just based on certain individuals, which is why I said that I
would really like to see any kind of proper guidelines for this.

> For the record, the active members of the treasury team had a great
> discussion and have generally been in alignment once we got onto the
> same page.

What?

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Expense Rules for Mini-DebConfs

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Sam

On 2019/10/02 23:33, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Tl;DR: I think that the Mini-DebConf and Sprint process are working
> great and have no plans to revisit those procedures.
> But we can discuss whether we need to do that.

I don't think it's working great. Earlier this year my request for
travel re-reimbursement got declined because I have "already received
funding to attend another sprint earlier in the year".

Perhaps it's even a fair enough reason, but if it is it would make sense
to have that codified in some policy.

The way such requests are dealt with right now does not appear to be
fair or consistent at all, and it seems that it would make sense to fix
that.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Which idiot made Calamares used in Debian ?

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi!

For context (and to answer the question in the topic), I'm the Calamares
maintainer in Debian and the Debian Live team member who added it to our
live media...

On 2019/08/29 05:17, Sam Hartman wrote:
>>>>>> "michael" == michael caron couturier  writes:
> 
> michael> The app is unaccessible for blind users fix your mess
> michael> before adding crap ...  -- Michaël C. Couturier

It is true that Calamares is inaccessible for blind users at the moment.
But as mentioned in another post, the usual debian-installer is still
available from the boot menu exactly as it was in stretch and
debian-installer will probably continue to be available on live media
for as long as it exists in debian. (unfortunately that boot menu isn't
very accessible for many either, but I digress...). A few things
exacerbated accessibility for buster which included sound driver issues
and a move to wayland that makes it really difficult for apps to look at
other apps, but I'm not going to spend too much time on that topic here
either.

> It's true that there's not an supported accessible installer that you
> can run once you've booted a live system.  In some ways this is a
> regression over stretch.  Although the installer you could run from a
> live system previously had a lot of bugs.

Not true, stretch didn't have any installer available from the live
session, there is no regression from stretch here.

> We were aware of the accessibility issues with Calamares and would love
> to see them improve in the future.

FWIW, after reading Mo Zhou's post[1] about tensorflow to to
debian-devel on Sunday (I need tensorflow in order to package Mozilla
deepspeech, which I want to use, among other things, for installer
purposes), I realised I need to look into alternatives and have spent
around 13 hours this week so far reading about speech to text in Linux
and learning about natural language processing (which I apparently still
need to do a lot of). My goal is to use this in an installer that might
help for a lot of accessibility use cases (people who can't see, who
have limb mobility problems or tremors etc) but who still can speak and
hear to install Debian by talking to the installer. For example, you'd
say something like "Reduce my windows partition by 20% and use the free
space to install debian" or "Reduce my Windows partition to 400G and
create a 20G partition for linux and 80 for home", then the installer
should try to figure out what the user wants and repeat back what it
intends to do and confirm that it's acceptable. I can understand how
something like that may seem too ambitious for an idiot like me, and I
realise that it might even take a few years to eventually get there, but
I'm chugging along and making some slow but good progress in figuring it
out.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2019/08/msg00450.html

> I also hope that over time Calamares accessibility improves.

Calamares is working on it and have made good strides on getting the UI
to run as a non-root user during the 3.2 series (they didn't hit all the
goals listed in https://calamares.io/calamares-3.2-plan/ yet but they'll
get there). I think an installer UI that doesn't run as root is a good
thing for everyone.

> Debian is best when we all work to improve it.
Calamares, at this point, is an improvement for Debian. It makes the
system installable from the live session and overall it makes the system
easier to install for (at my thumbsuck who works with a lot of different
kind of users) about 90% (or perhaps even a bit more) of the typical
laptop/desktop users out there. It also makes things like
full-disk-encryption that is becoming increasingly important  out there
really easy, that's still way too complicated for an average user in
debian-installer.

Calamares added initial support for RAID devices during the buster
freeze (so we'll have it in bullseye) which boosts it by another
percentage point or so for the segment I mentioned above. Adding some
sort of preseed support and Debian-specific options that we're missing
will boost it a little more. I don't think Calamares will ever make it
to a 100% installer because of overall design issues which might even
get fixed longer term (for example it's hard dependency on Qt libraries
atm), but it does help for some very real problems out there.

So, I'm not denying that Calamares has limitations, and that the
accessibility issues are a problem, but including it for Buster has only
brought positives without taking anything away from anyone compared to
the situation we have in stretch, so I don't regret the progress that
we've made at all.

I could talk a lot about installers at this point but I'll leave that
for another time.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: debian-private leaked on pastebin, worried

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/08/05 14:52, Debi Leaks wrote:
> You and your band of thugs try to humiliate and blackmail two long standing 
> volunteers to make forced confessions at christmas and now you complain that 
> you are the victim?

If you're referring to the two cases that I think you're trying to refer
to then...

In one of these cases there was some overreaction and it has at least
partially (possibly even mostly) been dealt with.

In the other case, the person was kicked out of the project due to their
bad behaviour, and their appalling behaviour since then have proved
beyond a shaddow of a doubt to everyone in the project that they should
never be allowed back.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: debian-private leaked on pastebin

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/08/05 12:25, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>> https://pastebin.com/Xm4J1hVd
> 
> It's basically just you throwing rocks at us, Daniel.

He probably has more protonmail accounts by now than anyone else in Debian.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: anti-tarball clause and GPL

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/07/23 19:49, Adam Borowski wrote:
> ##
> I do not consider a flat tarball to be a preferred form for modification. 
> Thus, like any non-source form, it must be accompanied by a way to obtain
> the actual form for modification.  There are many such ways -- unless you
> distribute the software in highly unusual circumstances, a link to a
> network server suffices; see the text of the GPL for further details.
> ##

> Thoughts?

It's a non-issue, really. Tarballs are trivial to extract, and doesn't
block a developer from working on the source in any meaningful way.

This is very different to say, minified javascript that is not
considered source code because you can't practically work with that as
source.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Upgrade From Debian 8 to Debian 10

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Ammad

On 2019/07/08 10:58, Ammad Khan wrote:
> I'm running large number of servers on Debian 8 and now want to directly
> upgrade them from Debian 8 to Debian 10.

First and foremost, this list isn't meant for support, please refer to
https://www.debian.org/support where you can get the correct mailing
lists for support purposes.

> Is it possible to upgrade dist directly and what is harm with this
> process? Debian 8 servers are using for hosting purpose and some
> components are listed below :

You can't skip releases when upgrading, you have to fully upgrade to
Debian 9 (including updates) before upgrading to Debian 10.

> - Nginx
> - Apache
> - Varnish
> - Mysql 5.5
> - Memcached
> - PHP 7.0 
> - FPM service is using with Apache

Always best to check your setup in a VM or a machine with snapshots
first, but at a glance MySQL has been replaced with MariaDB (at least
they're highly compatible but if you use any sort of configuration
manager or metapackages or scripts that refer to these for your
deployment, you'll have to update those).

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/07/02 11:26, Marc Haber wrote:
> I do feel significantly less welcome in Debian since diversity /
> antiharassment / policitcal correctnes / CoC came around the corner.

How so regarding diversity/antiharassment/CoC? They do nothing to
threaten or downgrade the importance of any Debian contributor.

> I do feel that Debian has lost its goal of creating superior technology
> for just being the umpteenth organization that cares more about
> supporting minorities.

Technical excellence and inclusion aren't opposing points on a slider,
in fact, they walk hand in hand. Being inclusive is also not about
'supporting minorities' as some would like to allude. Many different
kinds of bad people are also minorities and we don't care about those.
The idea behind things like our diversity statement is to let
marginalized people know that they are welcome in the project and if
something or someone gives them the opposite impression, then they can
be assured that it doesn't reflect the views of the project.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/07/02 10:35, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their 
> skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their 
> appearance?
> 
> How about "all is welcome here"?

That's basically our default state, so you could basically say we do
that every month.

The reason that certain groups of people (women, lgbt people,
disadvantaged people (based on race, location, etc) and so on) gets some
special attention is that they have been historically marginalized and
in many countries that's still even the case. The idea behind diversity
isn't diversity for diversity's sake as some would like to allude to,
but it's about inclusivity and about human rights. And sure, when it
comes to human rights it's going to get a little political, as an
individual I make the choice to deal with that because it's important to
me that my fellow human beings get to have the same rights and access to
the same opportunities that I do. Many in the Debian project feel the
same way and that it aligns well with the ethos of the project.

As for a literal "all is welcome here", that gets more complicated
because people who go against our ethos aren't welcome here. If someone
is a bigot and wants to spew out hatred and propaganda on our platforms,
I'll be one of the first to make a call that they be kicked out. This
doesn't at all meant that people can't have their own opinion or should
be afraid to voice it. But there are those of us that want to make this
world a better place for future generations so that they can both live
and thrive in it, but then there are those regressionists who will
insist on every bad choice possible to set us back as a species. I have
no problem to call these people out, and if they want to be a crybaby
and a snowflake about it and go "boo I don't like politics" every time
that they are proven to be wrong about their views and still insist to
double down on those, then I'm certainly not going to waste any sympathy
on them.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Debian supports pridemonth?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
> thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
> events with a definite political connotation. I don't think that
> Debian should take sides on any specific political issues (except of
> course issues that have a relation to free software), especially if
> that hasn't been discussed at large among project members and there
> isn't a clear consensus.
> 
> Is it just me (and am I being blatantly wrong, if so please enlighten
> me) or do others share my concern?

Probably a bit of a stretch to call it political. As far as I
understand, all that it's about is a shared stance against bigotry and
letting people know that it's ok to be different and that we accept
people from a wide variety of walks of life. Seems in line with our
current policies so I don't really see much of an issue there.

Debian isn't aligning itself with any specific political movement here
so I think in that context, it's really a non-issue. Even if it were,
there are going to be places where you're going to have to pick sides
when protecting basic freedoms become political. This one is very
uncomplicated though.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects

[Jonathan Carter]

Hey Jonas

On 2019/06/09 12:55, Jonas Meurer wrote:
> So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the
> scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian
> infrastructure software.
> That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on
> infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors.
> Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor
> new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors.
> 
> My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for
> diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier
> significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our
> infrastructure software projects.

I'm usually up for trying new things and can't see a problem with that.

How about also having a monthly session for newcomers on #debian-meeting
where wishful Debian contributors can ask about anything they want and
then we have a panel of a few knowledgable DD's ready to answer them in
real time?

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Realizing Good Ideas with Debian Money

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/06/01 19:55, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I very much doubt that our current donation-driven model would generate US
> $1M per year on a sustained basis, particularly if you subtract DebConf
> out of the mix (which I think we should, because that money is essentially

DebConf tends to bring in money for Debian, so not sure why you would
want to subtract it.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Sam

On 2019/05/21 12:15, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Obviously this question is motivated by things that happened last year,
> but I'm not asking about that situation, and the details of the question
> I'm asking are intentionally different in ways that matter at least to
> me.

It's kind of hard to ignore that case in a discussion like this, because
a blog removal seems somewhat rare and that was a prominent case.

> I am asking this question because in multiple conversations with members
> of our community related situations have come up and I'd like to better
> understand how we think we should approach disagreement in use of a
> shared resource.

I think of Planet Debian than more as just a shared resource, it's a
window into the world of Debian developers from the world outside, it's
also a way for Debian developers to follow what's happening in each
other's lives, and it also provides a voice for those who use it.

That said, people associate Planet Debian with the Debian project
itself, and while it's fine for people to disagree with the Debian
project on their blogs that get aggregated, I think that it's important
that the content itself doesn't directly violate our core community
guidelines (CoC, diversity statement, etc).

> Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they have
> removed my blog from planet.  I understand what they are saying enough
> to believe it is not vandalism; they honestly believe I did something
> wrong.  I can't understand from their message how they hope I'd fix it.
> 
> I cannot engage with them in what I think is a timely manner.
> 
> They copied the planet admins who have not gotten involved in the
> conversation.
> 
> What should I do?
> 
> 1) Add the blog back myself, asking the person to appeal to the planet
> admins if they still think my blog should not be present?
> 
> 2) Ask the planet admins to respond to the situation and either help me
> understand the problem or add my blog back.

Option number two seems like the entirely logical and reasonable
approach. If it seems that you've overstepped it doesn't seem like a
good idea to antagonize the admins any further, so I don't think that
just adding the blog back without any further feedback is every a good idea.

> In my mind the question pops up because we have two conflicting things.
> It's not really clear that random developers should be removing blogs
> from planet.  On the other hand planet is a shared service and if there
> really is a critical issue, it's better to get it fixed.
> 
> However, revert wars are antisocial in and of themselves.

Debian developers shouldn't just remove a blog from planet without
justification, I think that should be codified in the planet
rules/guidelines somewhere.

If you make a bad upload, someone will be quick to point out to you
exactly which part of debian policy you've messed up and file an RC bug
against your package. Our community guidelines deserve to be on the same
standard, if a blog is removed from planet Debian, it makes sense that
there's at least a good reason for that, no?

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: metaphors and feminism

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Ian

On 2019/03/30 20:46, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Paul Wise writes ("Re: metaphors and feminism"):
>> Personally I think the phrase "Debian Developer" and the abbreviation
>> DD is a relic of an earlier era when the set of tasks available to
>> Debian contributors were more technical and less varied.
> 
> As the person perhaps most responsible for the choice of the word
> `Developer' I think your explanation is very ... charitable.  It is
> certainly clear to at least me that it is the wrong word.
> 
>> I try to use "Debian member" in mails since it is clearer what that
>> means to a larger set of people and I'd like to see Debian culture
>> (and perhaps the official documents) move towards that too.
> 
> I see other people doing this too.  I like it.
> 
> The problem of course is that the official term is not "member" so
> this is unclear and arguably wrong in some sense.  It should be.  I
> would second a GR to change it.
>
> There is also a problem with acronyms.  Debian Member => "DM" but we
> already have "Debian Maintainers".  I think it would be best to rename
> Debian Maintainers too.  Particularly since you can be a maintainer of
> a package in Debian without having your key in the Debian Maintainers'
> keyring, so this term is very confusing.

+1 on renaming Debian Maintainers too in such a scenario.

> ADM = "Authorised Debian Maintainers" or "Assistant/Associate Debian
> Members" or something maybe ?

So, how about:

DM: Debian Members. Full members of the project that can represent
themselves as such, vote in elections, and have a @debian.org email
address. (Pretty much what a DD and non-uploading DD is).

So, I'm just braindumping below and not sure that this is the best, but
it might be useful to have different types of non-member roles within
Debian. I also think it's useful to have a step-up to becoming a Debian
Member rather than an all or nothing approach. The DM -> DD process
works quite well, I recommend it to a lot of people that want to become
a DD, but we don't really have something like that for non-uploading
people. Below I went with "Community" as a word to describe non-member
contribution roles:

DCU: Debian Community Uploaders. These are people that are part of the
larger Debian community, but not formally part of Debian. They have
already uploaded some packages by means of sponsor and they have
demonstrated enough skill and that they can be trusted to have
unsupervised upload rights to the Debian archives (so, what DM is now)

DCM: Debian Community Members. These are people who might typically not
be interested in uploading, or even technical matters. They actively
work in community matters like improving local teams, organising meetups
and talks, contributing to Debian, etc. Just like DCM status would allow
unsupervised uploads, DCM members can get more access to certain
administrative areas that they might be involved in.

It might even be nice to offer something like an @debian.community email
address for DC* roles, which may make it easier in terms of access
control to certain services, but now I'm putting the cart before the
horse :)

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Debian election gerrymander, credibility

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/03/14 10:27, Matthias Hager wrote:
> Chris Lamb has obviously been gaslighting, winding people up for months in 
> private and pretending he doesn't know anything

This kind of unfounded personal attacks are not welcome on any debian
mailing lists. If your intention behind your mail was sincere, I can
assure you that you've been misguided by what you've heard in
sensational news or purposely misleading blog posts.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Appeal procedure for DAM actions

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/01/08 13:38, Enrico Zini wrote:
>> If that's the case, are you talking about multiple appeals from people
>> who have had their membership revoked, or is it that I interpreted it
>> wrong and that anyone can appeal?
> 
> I'm clarifying the corner case in which two people have had their
> membership revoked, and are in a position to appeal in overlapping time
> frames.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

> Enrico who unfortunately cannot run this kind of procedure through
>valgrind --tool=helgrind

I'm not familiar with valgrind, so I'll take your word for it.

-Jonathan

Re: Appeal procedure for DAM actions

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/01/08 12:43, Enrico Zini wrote:
>> 1. Appealing DAM decisions
>> --
>> Any person who had their Debian membership suspended or revoked by DAM may
>> appeal the decision. They must request the appeal within 30 days, stating
>> why they disagree with the decision in a mail to DAM. DAM will notify the
>> New Members Committee (NMC)[1][2] and Front Desk.
> 
> In case two people appeal at the same time, the NMC should not have to
> discuss multiple issues in parallel.
> 
> if an appeal is requested while another appeal is already ongoing,
> starting the later appeal is delayed until after the committee has
> finished voting on the previous ones.

If I read the original text correctly in item 1 above, it seems that
only the person who's rights got revoked can appeal?

If that's the case, are you talking about multiple appeals from people
who have had their membership revoked, or is it that I interpreted it
wrong and that anyone can appeal?

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Censorship in Debian

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/01/05 23:24, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> Military pilots of aircraft with ejection seats are limited both to a minimum 
> and maximum height.  It's not fair that if that's your dream job that you are 
> excluded because you are too tall or too short, but it just isn't 
> economically 
> or operationally feasible to develop, test, and maintain a wide variety of 
> ejection seats to accommodate the full range of the human condition.
> 
> All accommodations have practical limits.  In my reading of the Diversity 
> Statement and CoC, I don't see that recognized and I fear how far it will be 
> taken in the future.

I want to start off by assuring you that I understand what you mean, but
I can't think of an example of such a practical limit that would
currently apply to the CoC, can you?

The closest kind of example I can think of is if someone doesn't have
access to any kind of computer, it's kind of impossible to become an
uploading DD in such a case, and it's not that we're exclusionary, just
a practical limitation. However, I don't think that specific one is even
worth mentioning in a CoC, but if you have identified specific limits,
can you share them? A CoC can always be amended or at least some
annotations made to explain it.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Censorship in Debian

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Scott

On 2019/01/04 15:44, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> Note that I'm not talking about refusing to republish (I know what that is).  
> I'm talking about declining to speak based on concern about disproportionate 
> reaction from our leadership/delegates for doing so (I'm also not arguing 
> that 
> did or didn't happen in any recent situation - I am trying to see if there is 
> some consensus to be found on at least how to talk about it).

Since there were so many replies to your email without actually
answering your question, I decided to indulge.

I think what you're referring to above is self-censorship, I think this
wikipedia page resonates with what you're trying to get across:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-censorship

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.