Re: which program/command can show wireless connection quality?

[Reco]

Hi.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:16:38AM +, Long Wind wrote:
>  Thanks! 
> 
> my adapter is Asus WL-167g USB WLAN Adapter
> i don't understand why change directional from omni to uni

Because if it's the noise/signal ratio that's the trouble this should
improve it.

> the adapter is problematic, sometimes it works fine, other times it doesn't 
> though link quality is good

Or, it's your neighbour's APs which give you signal interference. Or a
nearby police car (radar).

Reco

Re: which program/command can show wireless connection quality?

[Reco]

Hi.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:44:42AM +1200, Richard Hector wrote:
> On 09/08/18 19:00, Reco wrote:
> > Also, consider wrapping a sheet of tin foil around USB WiFi dongle,
> > transforming stock omni-directional antenna to uni-directional.
> 
> Uni-directional or no-directional?
> 
> I'd have thought you want to be fairly specific and precise with your
> 'wrapping' to get a benefit ...

Google it. [2] uses a strainer, not a tinfoil, but is pretty close to
what I meant.

[2] 
http://homestead-and-survival.com/diy-uni-directional-usb-wifi-range-extender/

Reco

Re: problem with modern desktops on Buster

[Gary Dale]

On 2018-08-08 12:13 AM, Gary Dale wrote:

On 2018-08-07 07:13 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

On Mon, Aug 06, 2018 at 03:03:57PM -0400, Gary Dale wrote:
I'm not even sure where to report this problem since I can't 
identify a specific package that is causing it. However since Gnome 
Flashback seems to be working, I'd guess that it is in the flashier 
desktop elements.


You can report a bug against the pseudo-package "general" if you aren't
sure what's at fault, but it's possibly better to ask here first, as you
have, to see if people can help narrow down the problem.

What graphics hardware do you have (e.g. nvidia), and have you installed
any drivers from outside Debian to use it?

Thanks. I'm thrilled to report that I'm back in Plasma and it is 
behaving itself again (so far) after doing the latest full-upgrade.


As for non-debian drivers, I don't have any. The worst I've done is 
include non-free firmware for my NIC.


Despite my earlier success with Gnome Flashback, it took to locking up 
when I tried to bring the computer back after the screen saver kicked 
in. Turning off the suspend mode cured that. I note that under KDE, I 
actually have just been locking the screen.


Hopefully whatever nastiness caused me two days of pain using Gnome 
Flashback has been resolved.




That situation lasted until my next reboot.  Now I'm back to where it 
was, except the Gnome Flashback seems to be having trouble when coming 
back from the screensaver. I'm now using xfce which uses the 
Xscreensaver. It's been OK for 24 hours but I've just adjusted the 
screen saver to turn off the monitor when it kicks in. I'll see how that 
pans out.


Last night's updates didn't fix the problem and I haven't seen anything 
in tonight's that looked hopeful.


My hardware is Ryzen 7, ASUS x-370, 16G RAM, ASUS HD-7850 video, Samsung 
960 EVO M2 ssd, and various HDs in a RAID 5 array.


Everything was running great until a few days ago. When I first set up 
the system, I got the occasional lockup but a few UEFI updates and the 
latest kernels seemed to have ended that. Now the lockups are highly 
repeatable (e.g. starting Plasma 5).

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[David Wright]

On Thu 09 Aug 2018 at 18:05:41 (+), tech wrote:
> 
> ... and why not ?
> 
> 
> As an example, with a bugzilla, you dont have to dig in n*thousands of 
> "unread" mails,. You can organized, have a clear view with a dashboard... and 
> so on.
> 
> And bugzilla is just one possibility.
> 
> 
> Since augusth 1st:
> 
> I received around 12 familly mails, 62 pro-mails, 147 spam/pishing/bullshit 
> mails
> 
> Between all the debian mails list who exist, i receives  also 168 emails.
> 
> I have maybee read 20 of them, and deleted all the others...
> 
> 
> Too much informations, help, news, updates  simply making those listing 
> useless !
> 
> 
> I have sent the following emails, received zero anwsers. With a "modern" 
> system like a bugzilla/forum/tracker/else and their moder options, i can know 
> how many peoples have read it ( 23 answer for 9876 readsfor example ) ... 
> with the mailings list, how many people took relly the time to read it ( as i 
> direct-delete most of he amils i receive ) ...
> 
> 
> with your "no" spirit, we would still have an horse and wagon like my 
> old-old-old grandpa !

You could consider unsubscribing from this mailing list with
List-Unsubscribe: 

and, instead, reading the archives with

whose postings are usually not many minutes behind.

Cheers,
David.

Re: which program/command can show wireless connection quality?

[Richard Hector]

On 09/08/18 19:00, Reco wrote:
> Also, consider wrapping a sheet of tin foil around USB WiFi dongle,
> transforming stock omni-directional antenna to uni-directional.

Uni-directional or no-directional?

I'd have thought you want to be fairly specific and precise with your
'wrapping' to get a benefit ...

Richard

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Rich Kulawiec]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 05:39:36PM +, tech wrote:
> Should'nt be time to move away from an old mail-listing to something more 
> modern like a bugzilla or else ???

No.  This is an absolutely terrible idea.  Here's why mailing lists
are (along with Usenet newsgroups) vastly superior to web-based anything:

1. They're asynchronous: you don't have to interact in real time.
You can download messages when connected to the Internet, then read
them and compose responses when offline.

2. They work reasonably well even in the presence of multiple outages
and severe congestion -- because they queue.

3. They're push, not pull, so new content just shows up.  Web forums
require that you go fishing for it.

4. They scale beautifully.

5. They allow you to use *your* software with the user interface of *your*
choosing rather than being compelled to learn 687 different web forums
with 687 different user interfaces, all of which range from "merely bad"
to "hideously bad".

6. You can archive them locally...

7. ...which means you can search them locally with the software of *your*
choice.  Including when you're offline.  And provided you make backups,
you'll always have an archive -- even if the original goes away.
(Those of who've been around for a while have seen a lot of web-based
discussions vanish forever because a host crashed or a domain expired or
a company went under or a company was acquired or someone made a mistake
or there was a security breach or a government confiscated it.)

8. They're portable: lists can be rehosted relatively easily.

9. (When properly run) they're relatively free of abuse vectors.

10. They're low-bandwidth, which is especially important at a point in
time when many people are interacting via metered services that charge by
the byte and are WAY overpriced, and getting more overpriced every day.

11. They impose minimal security risk.

12. They impose minimal privacy risk.

13. They can be freely interconverted -- that is, you can move a list
hosted by A using software B on operating system C to host X using
software Y on operating system Z.

14. They're archivable in a format that is likely to be readable long
into the future.  (I have archives of lists from the early 1980's.
Still readable with contemporary software because they're in mbox format.
I see no sign that this will cease to be true.)

15. They can be written to media and read from it.  This is a very
non-trivial task with web forums: just try doing the equivalent of
#13 above.  Good luck with that.

16. They handle threading well.  And provided users take a few seconds
to edit properly, they handle quoting well.

17. Numerous tools exist for handling mbox format: for example, "grepmail"
is a highly useful basic search tool.  Most search engines include
parsers for email, and the task of ingesting mail archives into search
engines is very well understood.  Excellent archiving tools exist as well.

18. The computing resources require to support them are minimal -- CPU,
memory, disk, bandwidth, etc.  (I recently set up an instance of Mailman
for someone that's working perfectly fine on a 10-year-old laptop.)

19. Mailing lists interoperate.  I can easily forward a message from this
list to another one.  Or to a person.  I can send a message to multiple
lists.  I can forward a message from a person to this list.  And so on.
Try doing this with web forum software A on host B with destinations
web forum software X and Y on hosts X1 and Y1.  Good luck with that.

20. Mailing lists can be uni- or bidirectionally gatewayed to Usenet.
(The main Python language mailing list is an example of this.)  This can
be highly useful.

There's more, but I think this easily suffices to make a slamdunk case.

---rsk

Re: What time is it, really?

[deloptes]

Greg Wooledge wrote:

> Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp and
> not ntpdate.

I did not suggested this but I also use ntpdate. Especially on laptop that
is not connected to the network all the time it does not make sense, as you
get those nasty mails that ntp server is not reachable.
I added simple cron job many moons ago to let ntpdate run twice a day - why
should I have a daemon running?

anyway, both is valid and one can choose what better suits. The memory
footprint of ntp is indeed really small.

regards

RE: mailing list vs "the futur"

[deloptes]

tech wrote:

> as i dont want to troll the debian-list, and as i already received several
> mails ( a first for me ) saying i am a dumbass, a stupid eager young 
> for the audience, i will stop the broadcast of bad words here.
> 
> 
> i need to go to the post office to send a letter, so i will take my horse
> ... as i leave approximatly at 39 km, iand my horse is running at 21 Km/h,
> it will take for the round trip around 4 hours to come back ...

you are free to move to a city where they drive electric cars. good luck

You can't simply replace something working, while people are using it. It is
enormous effort with consequences you can obviously not imagine. At the end
nothing is for free, so who will pay for all the work? Or how will you
motivate someone to move the mailing lists to something else, that even you
can not guarantee that it will work?

think of those

regards

Re: question about the kernel

[deloptes]

songbird wrote:

> the debian processes are done via the kernel
> team and so you can also follow that mailing list
> (i read via gmane and usenet).

And you can always do "make deb-pkg" on the source and produce a ready for
use debian package

regards

Re: de proxmox

[Lic. Domingo Varela Yahuitl]

Man rsync ...

From: l...@ida.cu 
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 8:57:54 AM
To: Lista de Debian
Subject: Re: de proxmox

Si ok eso si lo se, pero por ej intento conectarme por Filezilla para por
SSH copiar la salva en otra PC pero no hace nada.

Eso es lo que se me ocurre pero Filexilla no se conecta a Proxmox.

Hay que hacer algo para habilitar SSH ??


> /var/lib/vz/dump
>
> El 9/8/18, l...@ida.cu  escribió:
>> Buenos días a todos.
>>
>> Ya hice un backup de una Pc virtual que tengo en Proxmox.
>>
>> Mi pregunta es, cómo copiar esa salva para otro PC ?
>>
>>
>> Alguna idea ?
>>
>>
>> Agradezco toda ayuda
>>
>>
>

Re: What time is it, really?

[Shea Alterio]

The only clock in my house that stays perfectly on time without NTP is my
akai s5000 sampler. It runs on a 386 ;)

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM Fred  wrote:

> On 08/09/2018 12:42 PM, Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 09 Aug 2018 at 20:39:16 +0200, john doe wrote:
> >
> >> On 8/9/2018 5:00 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 10:49:52AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
>  On Thu, 2018-08-09 at 10:35 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp
> 
>  Why not openntpd?
> 
>  https://packages.debian.org/stretch/openntpd
> >>> Sure, whatever you prefer.  There are at least 4 viable alternatives:
> >>>
> >>> ntp
> >>> chrony
> >>> openntpd
> >>> systemd-timesyncd
> >>>
> >> Systemd-timesyncd is only a client and using sntp.
> >>
> >>
> https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-timesyncd.service.html
> > Ideal for what the OP wants. Either that or chrony, if he would only
> > make his mind up.
> >
> Well, what makes you think I haven't made my mind up?
>
> Several years ago I built a "network clock" that receives WWVB time
> signals, has a clock display and an Ethernet interface so computers on
> the local network can ask for the time.  The hardware works and the
> software is able to decode the WWVB time code.  I am interested in
> finishing it now.  The computers on the network can use a Perl program
> to get the time.
>
> Thanks for the help.
> Best regards,
> Fred
>
>

Re: What time is it, really?

[Fred]

On 08/09/2018 12:42 PM, Brian wrote:

On Thu 09 Aug 2018 at 20:39:16 +0200, john doe wrote:


On 8/9/2018 5:00 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 10:49:52AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:

On Thu, 2018-08-09 at 10:35 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp


Why not openntpd?

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/openntpd

Sure, whatever you prefer.  There are at least 4 viable alternatives:

ntp
chrony
openntpd
systemd-timesyncd


Systemd-timesyncd is only a client and using sntp.

https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-timesyncd.service.html

Ideal for what the OP wants. Either that or chrony, if he would only
make his mind up.


Well, what makes you think I haven't made my mind up?

Several years ago I built a "network clock" that receives WWVB time 
signals, has a clock display and an Ethernet interface so computers on 
the local network can ask for the time.  The hardware works and the 
software is able to decode the WWVB time code.  I am interested in 
finishing it now.  The computers on the network can use a Perl program 
to get the time.


Thanks for the help.
Best regards,
Fred

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Ben Finney]

tech  writes:

> Should'nt be time to move away from an old mail-listing to something
> more modern like a bugzilla or else ???

It's 2018. Shouldn't we move away from an old “keyboard” to something
mroe modern like a data-glove?

Less sarcastically: You have said nothing that demonstrates why a
mailing list is not fit for the purpose.

Merely because some things are newer does not make those things better.

To argue for replacing an established system that works fine today, you
have to actually demonstrate how it fails, and demonstrate how that
failure is sufficiently bad for it to be replaced. Otherwise it stays,
by default.

-- 
 \“I was in Las Vegas, at the roulette table, having a furious |
  `\ argument over what I considered to be an odd number.” —Steven |
_o__)   Wright |
Ben Finney

/etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[der.hans]

moin moin,

I'm giving a presentation on /etc/alternatives in a few hours.

If you use the alternatives system a lot and would like to spend a few
minutes reviewing my talk for me, please see the links below.

Any use cases or cool functionality that I've missed?

Anything I've gotten completely wrong?

Any suggestions for good examples?

AsciiDoc source file:

https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.adoc

Slidy HTML ( one-page format without JavaScript, slides with JavaScript ):

https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.html

ciao,

der.hans
--
#  https://www.LuftHans.com   https://www.PhxLinux.org
#  "The purpose of IT is to seamlessly and transparently provide the other
#  9/10's of the iceberg for people who need to work with chunks
#  of floating ice." -- Strata Rose Chalup

Re: Démarrage d'un pc à une heure programmée

[philolilou]

Bonjour,

merci à tous pour votre aide dans la résolution de mes soucis!

Je vous souhaite à tous une bonne soirée ainsi qu'une bonne fin de semaine :-)


- Mail original -
De: "andre debian" 
À: debian-user-french@lists.debian.org
Envoyé: Jeudi 9 Août 2018 11:41:58
Objet: Re: Démarrage d'un pc à une heure programmée

On Wednesday 08 August 2018 23:14:51 jean-pierre giraud wrote:
> Le 08/08/2018 à 22:40, babouchko a écrit :
> > Il faut modifier la ligne défaut du fichier grub. (de mémoire grub.cfg,
> > mais grub ou 2...)
> >Des explications sur cette page : 
> https://www.debian-fr.org/t/choix-noyau-au-depart-etc-default-grub/58412/4
> En gros vérifier le numéro d'ordre du noyau à sélectionner par défaut et 
> modifier en conséquence la ligne GRUB_DEFAULT= dans le
> fichier /etc/default/grub 

GRUB_DEFAULT=0
lancera le 1er 'menuentry' de /boot/grub/grub.cfg
On peut aussi choisir un autre numéro des menuentry,
sinon l'expliciter en choisissant le menuentry à lancer par défaut, p. ex. :
GRUB_DEFAULT= 'Debian GNU/Linux, avec Linux 4.9.0-6-686-pae'

André

Re: What time is it, really?

[Brian]

On Thu 09 Aug 2018 at 20:39:16 +0200, john doe wrote:

> On 8/9/2018 5:00 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 10:49:52AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2018-08-09 at 10:35 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Why not openntpd?
> > > 
> > > https://packages.debian.org/stretch/openntpd
> > 
> > Sure, whatever you prefer.  There are at least 4 viable alternatives:
> > 
> > ntp
> > chrony
> > openntpd
> > systemd-timesyncd
> > 
> 
> Systemd-timesyncd is only a client and using sntp.
> 
> https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-timesyncd.service.html

Ideal for what the OP wants. Either that or chrony, if he would only
make his mind up.

-- 
Brian.

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[James H. H. Lampert]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 05:39:36PM +, tech wrote:


Should'nt be time to move away from an old mail-listing to
something more modern like a bugzilla or else ???


On 8/9/18, 10:47 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:


No.



What? A list server isn't good enough for you? It's good enough for the 
Tomcat community, and for the IBM Midrange community, not to mention the 
thousand-odd organ geeks subscribed to PIPORG-L.


--
JHHL

RE: de proxmox

[Ramses]

Utiliza el comando "scp" desde la Consola de Linux y prueba...


Saludos,

Ramsés

-Mensaje original-
De: l...@ida.cu [mailto:l...@ida.cu] 
Enviado el: jueves, 9 de agosto de 2018 15:58
Para: Lista de Debian
Asunto: Re: de proxmox

Si ok eso si lo se, pero por ej intento conectarme por Filezilla para por
SSH copiar la salva en otra PC pero no hace nada.

Eso es lo que se me ocurre pero Filexilla no se conecta a Proxmox.

Hay que hacer algo para habilitar SSH ??


> /var/lib/vz/dump
>
> El 9/8/18, l...@ida.cu  escribió:
>> Buenos días a todos.
>>
>> Ya hice un backup de una Pc virtual que tengo en Proxmox.
>>
>> Mi pregunta es, cómo copiar esa salva para otro PC ?
>>
>>
>> Alguna idea ?
>>
>>
>> Agradezco toda ayuda
>>
>>
>

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Ric Moore]

On 08/09/2018 01:39 PM, tech wrote:

Should'nt be time to move away from an old mail-listing to something 
more modern like a bugzilla or else ???


Why?? There already are plenty of such sites, you need only pick and 
choose. I like it here as I don't have to read a "me too!" message with 
a meg of attachments, html ads and rainbow snorting unicorns. If you 
really are a "tech", you would know better than ask.


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: Using Sid - sound prob

[Ric Moore]

On 08/09/2018 05:10 AM, Joe wrote:

On Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:14:44 +0200
deloptes  wrote:




Regarding the sound - I never had a problem in the past 12+ years.


You are fortunate. I went though a period where the assignments for
sound card 0 and 1 would randomly flip, every few weeks or months. I
didn't find whatever magical incantation would prevent this, if it
existed.


I too have not had a serious sound system problem in YEARS. I don't dink 
with hand edits, I use alsamixer to set up my sound devices, then use 
pulse to select the output/input devices as I select them. No probs. I 
did make it easy for my system by using only USB sound devices. They are 
not only CHEAP but trouble free. I have a USB stereo headphone with 
mike, a USB 7.1 sound device (so I can blast my neighbors into the next 
county if I were wanting to do that).and there is a mike on my USB web 
cam. ALL easily configurable, as well as usable with alsa/pulse. I also 
use the USB headphones on my laptop. The built-in speakers are crap.


>> I'm a computer *user*.

Not once you start screwing around with stuff.
IF alsa cannot deal with your audio device, find an open window.
Then toss the device out the window.
(or disable it in bios)
Get a USB audio device and pray your hand edits haven't rendered alsa 
useless. Ric


p/s don't use Sid
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: What time is it, really?

[john doe]

On 8/9/2018 5:00 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 10:49:52AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:

On Thu, 2018-08-09 at 10:35 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp



Why not openntpd?

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/openntpd


Sure, whatever you prefer.  There are at least 4 viable alternatives:

ntp
chrony
openntpd
systemd-timesyncd



Systemd-timesyncd is only a client and using sntp.

https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-timesyncd.service.html

--
John Doe

Re: mailing list is the future (corrected spelling mistakes)

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:08:46 +
tech  wrote:

Hello tech,

>my spelling VS was correct. Following your corrected spelling, i should
>wrotte: mailing list is NOT the future...but the past.

I was being provocative, just as your OP was.  Like I said, nobody
requires you to use Mailing Lists.

The wheel has been around for well over two thousand years.  Perhaps we
should get rid of that, too.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
The stakes were high but the danger low
Charade - Skids


Muppet.


pgpIPSqHaqHMc.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

RE: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tech]

as i dont want to troll the debian-list, and as i already received several 
mails ( a first for me ) saying i am a dumbass, a stupid eager young  for 
the audience, i will stop the broadcast of bad words here.


i need to go to the post office to send a letter, so i will take my horse ... 
as i leave approximatly at 39 km, iand my horse is running at 21 Km/h, it will 
take for the round trip around 4 hours to come back ...




De : tech 
Envoyé : jeudi 9 août 2018 20:05:41
À : Greg Wooledge; debian-user@lists.debian.org
Objet : RE: mailing list vs "the futur"



... and why not ?


As an example, with a bugzilla, you dont have to dig in n*thousands of "unread" 
mails,. You can organized, have a clear view with a dashboard... and so on.

And bugzilla is just one possibility.


Since augusth 1st:

I received around 12 familly mails, 62 pro-mails, 147 spam/pishing/bullshit 
mails

Between all the debian mails list who exist, i receives  also 168 emails.

I have maybee read 20 of them, and deleted all the others...


Too much informations, help, news, updates  simply making those listing 
useless !


I have sent the following emails, received zero anwsers. With a "modern" system 
like a bugzilla/forum/tracker/else and their moder options, i can know how many 
peoples have read it ( 23 answer for 9876 readsfor example ) ... with the 
mailings list, how many people took relly the time to read it ( as i 
direct-delete most of he amils i receive ) ...


with your "no" spirit, we would still have an horse and wagon like my 
old-old-old grandpa !




De : Greg Wooledge 
Envoyé : jeudi 9 août 2018 19:47:24
À : debian-user@lists.debian.org
Objet : Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 05:39:36PM +, tech wrote:
> Should'nt be time to move away from an old mail-listing to something more 
> modern like a bugzilla or else ???

No.

RE: mailing list is the future (corrected spelling mistakes)

[tech]

my spelling VS was correct. Following your corrected spelling, i should wrotte: 
mailing list is NOT the future...but the past.




De : Brad Rogers 
Envoyé : jeudi 9 août 2018 20:04:56
À : Debian Users ML
Objet : Re: mailing list is the future (corrected spelling mistakes)

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 17:39:36 +
tech  wrote:

Hello tech,

>modern like a bugzilla or else ???

The wheel has been around several thousand years.  Perhaps we should
replace that too.

You don't like MLs;  Nobody is forcing you to use them.

--
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
It's only bits of plastic, lines projected on the wall
Keep It Clean - The Vibrators

Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)

[songbird]

Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
...
> I did finally figuratively "run away" while very literally "shrieking"
> one day because there were SO MANY upgrades. I wasn't able to do both
> that and the advocacy that MUST be done from behind this keyboard
> right now. That just doesn't work on dialup... unfortunately... or I
> would still be on testing.. :)

  i used to use the debdelta package/service to speed
things up and it did help quite a bit for certain
packages but i have no idea if it is really kept up
any longer.


> The first time I did testing was for Stretch. That happened to be at
> the end of the cycle just before it became stable. It spoiled me.
> Upgrades are much rarer at that point because Developers have
> consciously put a hold on any new tweaks so as to have a product
> that's legitimately ready to wear the tag "stable".
>
> Something like that... :)
>
> BECAUSE things are getting ready to roll over again sooner than later,
> I decided this week to try another testing debootstrap. In fact, let's
> do that right now. See ya! Can't do that and chat online at the same
> time, either, dialup yada-yada.. :D
>
> Cindy :)

  ok, so perhaps the above may help, or not, i don't
think it costs much to use/install.


  songbird

RE: mailing list vs "the futur"

[tech]

... and why not ?


As an example, with a bugzilla, you dont have to dig in n*thousands of "unread" 
mails,. You can organized, have a clear view with a dashboard... and so on.

And bugzilla is just one possibility.


Since augusth 1st:

I received around 12 familly mails, 62 pro-mails, 147 spam/pishing/bullshit 
mails

Between all the debian mails list who exist, i receives  also 168 emails.

I have maybee read 20 of them, and deleted all the others...


Too much informations, help, news, updates  simply making those listing 
useless !


I have sent the following emails, received zero anwsers. With a "modern" system 
like a bugzilla/forum/tracker/else and their moder options, i can know how many 
peoples have read it ( 23 answer for 9876 readsfor example ) ... with the 
mailings list, how many people took relly the time to read it ( as i 
direct-delete most of he amils i receive ) ...


with your "no" spirit, we would still have an horse and wagon like my 
old-old-old grandpa !




De : Greg Wooledge 
Envoyé : jeudi 9 août 2018 19:47:24
À : debian-user@lists.debian.org
Objet : Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 05:39:36PM +, tech wrote:
> Should'nt be time to move away from an old mail-listing to something more 
> modern like a bugzilla or else ???

No.

Re: mailing list is the future (corrected spelling mistakes)

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 17:39:36 +
tech  wrote:

Hello tech,

>modern like a bugzilla or else ???

The wheel has been around several thousand years.  Perhaps we should
replace that too.

You don't like MLs;  Nobody is forcing you to use them.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
It's only bits of plastic, lines projected on the wall
Keep It Clean - The Vibrators


pgpUGg7keR6Zo.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: What time is it, really?

[Michael Stone]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 09:36:33AM -0700, Fred wrote:
I think you may be right.  It seems a stupid response from ntpdate 
since I asked the time from the server.  So, ntpdate maybe isn't what 
I should be using.


ntpdate isn't a tool to tell you the time, it's a tool to establish the 
offset between your clock and a remote clock. The timestamp that appears 
is just a log entry. If you want to use ntpdate you can put it in a cron 
job that gets called once per day or whatever. You may want to add the 
-s option so the log goes to syslog instead of stdout. This will work 
fine.


There was a discussion about time services on this list some time ago 
and at that time I decided chrony should be used so I will try it 
next.  I don't want a service that keeps banging on the server.  Once 
a day seems reasonable to me.  Can chrony be configured to check in 
once a day.  I don't expect the time to be more accurate than 30 
seconds.  The computer does run 24/7 so the drift is in the software.


chrony is also probably overkill for you. I'd suggest openntpd or 
systemd-timesyncd. They'll check more than once per day, but it's really 
not much traffic or a big deal. Or you can just stick with ntpdate.


Mike Stone

Re: What time is it, really?

[Michael Stone]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 11:54:54AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 04:15:36PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:

Additionally, from http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/ntpq.html#rv (rv allows
one to read the offset for a particular association directly), "Note that
time values are represented in milliseconds and frequency values in
parts-per-million (PPM)."


Where do I even start


It sounds like you should start with a user/client/desktop oriented time 
program. There's no reason for most users to be running ntpd in 2018. If 
you're running a server syncing to a PPS source or somesuch then you 
need ntpd. But at that point you're going to have to learn a lot of 
domain-specific jargon to do that thing, at which point the ntpd 
documentation is fine. If you want something that's fire and forget, 
then install openntpd or systemd-timesyncd and call it a day.


Mike Stone

Re: mailing list vs "the futur"

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 05:39:36PM +, tech wrote:
> Should'nt be time to move away from an old mail-listing to something more 
> modern like a bugzilla or else ???

No.

mailing list vs "the futur"

[tech]

The way most people keep up to date on network news is through subscription to 
a number of mail reflectors (also known as mail exploders). Mail reflectors are 
special electronic mailboxes which, when they receive a message, resend it to a 
list of other mailboxes. This in effect creates a discussion group on a 
particular topic.
- E. Krol; The Hitchhikers Guide to the Internet; RFC 1118; Sept. 1989.


Seem's the first "bitnic listserv" is dated from 1984 ! More than 34 years ago !


Just as a reminder, we are now in 2018 ... something called the XXI century ... 
with 4G, optical FTTH connection, smartphones ...


Should'nt be time to move away from an old mail-listing to something more 
modern like a bugzilla or else ???

Re: OT: What time is it, really?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 August 2018 12:26:24 Martin wrote:

> Am 09.08.2018 um 18:15 schrieb Gene Heskett:
> > On Thursday 09 August 2018 11:16:27 Martin wrote:
> >> Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
> >>> Martin (2018-08-09):
>  First of: The documentation sucks!
> >>>
> >>> Care to elaborate?
> >>>
>  Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,
> >>>
> >>> I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
> >>> better that way.
> >>
> >> Granted.
> >>
>  that it does serve ntp in my local network?
> >>>
> >>> Do you have any evidence that it does?
> >>
> >> I would like to.
> >> As I tried, it did not.
> >
> > Then I suggest you reread man ntp.conf, and /etc/ntp.conf, and edit
> > it as root until you do understand it. Note that changes to take
> > effect, need a root session of "service ntp restart".
>
> [...]
>
> Wrong topic, may be?
> I used to use ntpd. Then tried systemd-timesyncd to act a a server.
> Which it will not do. Hence, I run ntpd.

Wrong topic? Note that nowhere in that portion of my msg you snipped, was 
systemd.timesyncd mentioned. It may have been in some other part of that 
message that I didn't author, and which you also snipped.
You might want to let some of the stuffing out of that shirt. I was 
trying to be helpfull because the docs do suck a bit.  And helpfull 
people are harder and harder to find because of folks with an attitude 
that you seem to want to be.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: What time is it, really?

[Nicolas George]

Greg Wooledge (2018-08-09):
> Not very useful.  OK, the man page also says, "SEE ALSO
> /usr/share/doc/ntp-doc/html/ntpq.html for the full documentation."
 ^^^
> 
> Of course, that file does not exist.
> 
> One might try to jump through hoops to try to find out how to obtain
> this file, etc.

You mean, like installing the ntp-doc package, maybe ?

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: What time is it, really?

[Andre Majorel]

On 2018-08-09 11:54 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 04:15:36PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> > Additionally, from
> > http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/ntpq.html#rv (rv allows
> > one to read the offset for a particular association
> > directly), "Note that time values are represented in
> > milliseconds and frequency values in parts-per-million
> > (PPM)."
> 
> [...] So, since all of this documentation is not very
> user-friendly, I rely on word of mouth to tell people, "Hey,
> see this offset field? It's milliseconds, not seconds."

At times, it's hard to make sense of the collective behaviour of
people.

90% of the population seem to think that any software that
requires reading one line of documentation is worthless.

Then there's those who defend poorly documented software,
insisting that "it's all in there", provided you spend a few
hours or days memorising every text file in the package,
including the source. After which, anyone who's not a moron
would know the answer to their question simply by putting
together one sentence from the man page with the twelfth item in
the FAQ and the entry for version 1.6.9 in the what's-new file.

Is there no middle ground at all ? Are we condemned to choose
between two forms of insanity ?

Sorry, pet peeve. Nothing personal.

-- 
André Majorel 
I trust bugs.debian.org to not publish my email address for
spammers to harvest.

Re[2]: Brother or Canon; not both

[Allen Hoover]

-Original Message- 
> From: Brian  
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org 
> Date: 08/09/18 11:25 
> Subject: Re: Brother or Canon; not both 
> 
> On Thu 09 Aug 2018 at 11:10:44 +0100, Brian wrote:
> 
> > On Wed 08 Aug 2018 at 19:12:09 -0500, Allen Hoover wrote:
> > 
> > > Ever since upgrading some customized Debian 64bit systems to Debian 8, 
> > > I've
> > > had trouble with the Canon UFRII printer drivers.  I've now been
> > > testing this issue on a vanilla Debian 8, and Debian 9 system with the
> > > same issues on both.
> > > 
> > > I use official Brother printer drivers which are i386 only, so have
> > > multi-arch installed, and the libc6-i386 package.  The Canon UFRII
> > > package installs fine, but when printing with any of those drivers the
> > > following error shows in the status: "Idle - src =
> > > libcanon_pdlwrapper.c, line = 514, err = 0nError Response:ReqNo=2,
> > > SeqNo=3,opvpErrorNo=-2".  If I uninstall the libc6-i386 package, the
> > > Canon drivers dont't throw an error, but the official Brother drivers
> > > quit working. The Brother doesn't indicate any error, but it simply
> > > prints nothing.
> > > 
> > > This was very repeatable on the 3 different systems( 2 systems were
> > > fresh installs) I've tried.  Its like an On/Off switch, install
> > > libc6-i386 and only one brand works, un-install and the only the other
> > > brand works
> > 
> > Printer models, please.
> 
> Allen - you responded in another thread. I have moved your response to
> here, the thread you started.


Sorry, not sure how that happened...

> 
> > The Canon issue first appeared with a Canon MF414, though the status error
> > message appears when using any of the UFRII drivers. I've been mainly 
> > testing
> > on a Brother MFC 9560, though at least one other official Brother driver has
> > same issue.  I'm using very latest UFRII package.
> 
> The MF414 is an AirPrint printer and has PDF as a language emulation.
> That means it will do driverless printing on unstable, testing and
> stretch, disposing of any need for a Canon UFRII printer driver.
> 
> For stretch:
> 
> 1. Get the device on the network with a wireless connection.
> 
> 2. Check that AirPrint is enabled (it probably is) by connecting to
>    the IP address of the device with a web browser (see the manual).
> 
> 3. Check that the Bonjour broadcasts from the device are detected with
>    avahi-daemon by looking at the output of 'avahi-browse -art'.
> 
> 4. In /etc/cups/cups-browsed.conf have CreateIPPPrinterQueues Yes and
>    restart cups-browsed.
> 
> 5. 'lpstat -a' and print dialogs of applications should list the printer.
> 
> See the wiki for further details.
> 
> Wih the MFC 9560 you are stuck with what Brother provides.
> 
> I would be interested in how you go on printing driverless.
> 
> -- 
> Brian.
> 


The systems I'm most concerned with are Jessie, I was only testing on Stretch
to see if I get the same results.


I don't have the MF414 myself, a user of my custom Jessie system does, and I
can't easily access that system for testing.


I'm not so much concerned with these 2 specific models, as I'm concerned about
getting the official Brother drivers, and the Canon UFRII drivers working on the
same system.


Thanks for your input,
Allen

Re: What time is it, really?

[Nicolas George]

Fred (2018-08-09):
> I think you may be right.  It seems a stupid response from ntpdate since I
> asked the time from the server.

It gave you the information.

>  So, ntpdate maybe isn't what I should be
> using.

That is what many people have just told you.

> There was a discussion about time services on this list some time ago and at
> that time I decided chrony should be used so I will try it next.  I don't
> want a service that keeps banging on the server.

Since you do not have the skill yourself, trust the default
configuration.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: What time is it, really?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 09:36:33AM -0700, Fred wrote:
> I don't
> want a service that keeps banging on the server.  Once a day seems
> reasonable to me.

It's not.

Re: What time is it, really?

[Fred]

On 08/09/2018 07:42 AM, Nicolas George wrote:

Fred (2018-08-09):

Someone complained off list about the timestamp in my emails being off.
Being a hardware person I think hardware should work properly and clocks
should keep accurate time.  So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
not active yet.

Nowadays, unless you have religions objections, you should just enable
systemd-timesyncd, it is the most lightweight and transparent way of
enabling network time synchronization with nowadays Debian.

ntpdate is not really good because it only does punctual queries; ntpd
and timesyncd will keep stats and adjust more accurately.


If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely with
an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.

fred@ragnok:~$ /usr/sbin/ntpdate -q time.nist.gov
server 2610:20:6f96:96::4, stratum 1, offset -610.512368, delay 0.09421
server 132.163.96.4, stratum 1, offset -610.509394, delay 0.08899
  9 Aug 06:51:15 ntpdate[13672]: step time server 132.163.96.4

   ^^^

offset -610.509394 sec

fred@ragnok:~$ date
Thu Aug  9 06:51:18 MST 2018

The time server is quite close to the computer clock.

If you are looking at the time I underlined above, I am pretty sure
(looking at the source) that it is the local time, not the time returned
by the server.

Regards,


Hi,
I think you may be right.  It seems a stupid response from ntpdate since 
I asked the time from the server.  So, ntpdate maybe isn't what I should 
be using.


There was a discussion about time services on this list some time ago 
and at that time I decided chrony should be used so I will try it next.  
I don't want a service that keeps banging on the server.  Once a day 
seems reasonable to me.  Can chrony be configured to check in once a 
day.  I don't expect the time to be more accurate than 30 seconds.  The 
computer does run 24/7 so the drift is in the software.


Best regards,
Fred

Re: OT: What time is it, really?

[Martin]

Am 09.08.2018 um 18:15 schrieb Gene Heskett:
> On Thursday 09 August 2018 11:16:27 Martin wrote:
> 
>> Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
>>> Martin (2018-08-09):
 First of: The documentation sucks!
>>>
>>> Care to elaborate?
>>>
 Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,
>>>
>>> I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
>>> better that way.
>>
>> Granted.
>>
 that it does serve ntp in my local network?
>>>
>>> Do you have any evidence that it does?
>>
>> I would like to.
>> As I tried, it did not.
>>
> Then I suggest you reread man ntp.conf, and /etc/ntp.conf, and edit it  
> as root until you do understand it. Note that changes to take effect, 
> need a root session of "service ntp restart".
[...]

Wrong topic, may be?
I used to use ntpd. Then tried systemd-timesyncd to act a a server. Which it 
will not do. Hence, I run ntpd.

Re: OT: What time is it, really?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 August 2018 11:16:27 Martin wrote:

> Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
> > Martin (2018-08-09):
> >> First of: The documentation sucks!
> >
> > Care to elaborate?
> >
> >> Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,
> >
> > I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
> > better that way.
>
> Granted.
>
> >> that it does serve ntp in my local network?
> >
> > Do you have any evidence that it does?
>
> I would like to.
> As I tried, it did not.
>
Then I suggest you reread man ntp.conf, and /etc/ntp.conf, and edit it  
as root until you do understand it. Note that changes to take effect, 
need a root session of "service ntp restart".

As I said before, my router can be a level 16 source, either by acting as 
a server, or as a broadcast source. This machine slaves to the router, 
both as a server for init purposes, and as a running listener to the 
routers broadcasts.

So the ntpq -p output here is:
gene@coyote:~$ ntpq -p
 remote   refidst t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==
 router.coyote.d .INIT.16 u-   6400.0000.000   0.000
 192.168.71.255  .BCST.16 u-   6400.0000.000   0.000

All the other machines here then use this machine as the server in plae 
of any 'pool' listings (#commented out) and their ntpq -p output is:
gene@rock64:~$ ntpq -p
 remote  refid st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==
*coyote.coyote.d 216.6.2.70 3 u   93   64  1760.657   -1.093   0.695

That rock64 is an arm64 machine that does not have a clock, fake_hw, but 
the /etc/ntp.conf is identical to the other 6 machines.  And I am 
banging on the level 2 servers at my isp or even further away, only once 
for all the machines here.

Here its from a raspberry pi 3b:
pi@picnc:~ $ ntpq -p
 remote  refid  st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==
*coyote.coyote.d 216.6.2.70  3 u  121  128  3770.2250.374   0.085

I could go on, but its boring. Comment the pool entries in /etc/ntp.conf,  
put your server in their place, and uncomment the last 2 lines to enable 
the secondary machines to listen to the broadcasts on your subnet of 
xx.yy.zz.255

That way they listen to .255 to stay current, and use the server entry 
when they boot. Piece of cake.

> > Regards,



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: OT: What time is it, really?

[Martin]

> I thought I saw a "not" here, hence the strange wording of my answer.

Cheers ;-)

Re: What time is it, really?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 04:15:36PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> Additionally, from http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/ntpq.html#rv (rv allows
> one to read the offset for a particular association directly), "Note that
> time values are represented in milliseconds and frequency values in
> parts-per-million (PPM)."

Where do I even start

OK, let's start with "man ntpq".  The -p option says, "Print  a list of
the peers known to the server as well as a summary of their state.  This is
equivalent to the peers interactive command."

Not very useful.  OK, the man page also says, "SEE ALSO
/usr/share/doc/ntp-doc/html/ntpq.html for the full documentation."

Of course, that file does not exist.

One might try to jump through hoops to try to find out how to obtain
this file, etc.  I'll just assume for the moment that the end result
of those hoops would lead me to a page that's basically the same as
your URL shown above, so I'll skip those hoops.

Now, let's look at the URL you provided.

The #rv anchor points to a section for the "rv" command, which it seems
is an alias for the "readvar" command.  There's no indication that this
is relevant to me in any way.

Right above that, is the peers command.  The man page says that -p is
equivalent to peers, so we have an indication that the peers section of
this page might be relevant!  OK!  So, we read the "peers" section, and
it says, "offset of server relative to this host".

That's it.  No units are mentioned in the output or in the documentation.

If we jump to the end of the page, there's just some tables and stuff.
Nothing comprehensible.  If we jump to the start, and skip the
paragraphs of incomprehensible jargon, there's a sentence that says,
"For examples and usage, see the NTP Debugging Techniques page."

OK, so let's follow that link.

Under "Verifying Correct Operation", it says "The ntpq commands pe, as
and rv are normally sufficient to verify correct operation ...".
What's pe?  Is that short for "peers"?  Let's assume it's short for
"peers", and that whoever wrote this document wasn't writing it for
ordinary humans.

"The pe command displays a list showing the DNS name or IP address for
each association along with selected status and statistics variables."

Then it goes on to talk about the "as" and "rv" commands, which includes
some wording about times being in milliseconds, but why would I read that
paragraph at all?  It's talking about these other two commands that I'm
not using.

...

So, since all of this documentation is not very user-friendly, I
rely on word of mouth to tell people, "Hey, see this offset field?
It's milliseconds, not seconds."

Re: OT: What time is it, really?

[Nicolas George]

Martin (2018-08-09):
> >> that it does serve ntp in my local network?
 ^

I thought I saw a "not" here, hence the strange wording of my answer.
Sorry.

> I would like to.
> As I tried, it did not.

timesyncd is not meant for that. It is a client, not a server. You were
right to use a complete implementation of NTP.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Brother or Canon; not both

[Brian]

On Thu 09 Aug 2018 at 11:10:44 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Wed 08 Aug 2018 at 19:12:09 -0500, Allen Hoover wrote:
> 
> > Ever since upgrading some customized Debian 64bit systems to Debian 8, I've
> > had trouble with the Canon UFRII printer drivers.  I've now been
> > testing this issue on a vanilla Debian 8, and Debian 9 system with the
> > same issues on both.
> > 
> > I use official Brother printer drivers which are i386 only, so have
> > multi-arch installed, and the libc6-i386 package.  The Canon UFRII
> > package installs fine, but when printing with any of those drivers the
> > following error shows in the status: "Idle - src =
> > libcanon_pdlwrapper.c, line = 514, err = 0nError Response:ReqNo=2,
> > SeqNo=3,opvpErrorNo=-2".  If I uninstall the libc6-i386 package, the
> > Canon drivers dont't throw an error, but the official Brother drivers
> > quit working. The Brother doesn't indicate any error, but it simply
> > prints nothing.
> > 
> > This was very repeatable on the 3 different systems( 2 systems were
> > fresh installs) I've tried.  Its like an On/Off switch, install
> > libc6-i386 and only one brand works, un-install and the only the other
> > brand works
> 
> Printer models, please.

Allen - you responded in another thread. I have moved your response to
here, the thread you started.

> The Canon issue first appeared with a Canon MF414, though the status error
> message appears when using any of the UFRII drivers. I've been mainly testing
> on a Brother MFC 9560, though at least one other official Brother driver has
> same issue.  I'm using very latest UFRII package.

The MF414 is an AirPrint printer and has PDF as a language emulation.
That means it will do driverless printing on unstable, testing and
stretch, disposing of any need for a Canon UFRII printer driver.

For stretch:

1. Get the device on the network with a wireless connection.

2. Check that AirPrint is enabled (it probably is) by connecting to
   the IP address of the device with a web browser (see the manual).

3. Check that the Bonjour broadcasts from the device are detected with
   avahi-daemon by looking at the output of 'avahi-browse -art'.

4. In /etc/cups/cups-browsed.conf have CreateIPPPrinterQueues Yes and
   restart cups-browsed.

5. 'lpstat -a' and print dialogs of applications should list the printer.

See the wiki for further details.

Wih the MFC 9560 you are stuck with what Brother provides.

I would be interested in how you go on printing driverless.

-- 
Brian.

Re: OT: What time is it, really?

[Martin]

Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
> Martin (2018-08-09):
>> First of: The documentation sucks!
> 
> Care to elaborate?
> 
>> Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,
> 
> I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
> better that way.

Granted.

>> that it does serve ntp in my local network?
> 
> Do you have any evidence that it does?

I would like to.
As I tried, it did not.

> Regards,
> 

Re: What time is it, really?

[Darac Marjal]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 10:35:23AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 07:19:46AM -0700, Fred wrote:

So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
not active yet.


Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp and
not ntpdate.

The current versions of the ntp package (since, like, Debian 6.x I think)
incorporate the one-time clock slamming feature of ntpdate, so you don't
need ntpdate at all.


If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely with
an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.


Once you've had ntp installed for several minutes (and possibly rebooted,
if your clock was particularly bad), you can query it with "ntpq -p" to
see how it's doing.

Unfortunately, the output format of ntpq -p isn't DOCUMENTED anywhere, so
it's a bit cryptic.  The most important thing to know, which is not stated
anywhere except word of mouth like this email, is that the "offset" column
is reporting milliseconds, not seconds.



Actually, quoting http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/debug.html: "Note 
that, except for explicit calendar dates, times are in milliseconds and 
frequencies are in parts-per-million (PPM).


Additionally, from http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/ntpq.html#rv (rv 
allows one to read the offset for a particular association directly), 
"Note that time values are represented in milliseconds and frequency 
values in parts-per-million (PPM)."


--
For more information, please reread.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: OT: What time is it, really?

[Nicolas George]

Martin (2018-08-09):
> First of: The documentation sucks!

Care to elaborate?

> Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,

I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
better that way.

> that it does serve ntp in my local network?

Do you have any evidence that it does?

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: What time is it, really?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 August 2018 10:35:23 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 07:19:46AM -0700, Fred wrote:
> > So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
> > not active yet.
>
> Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp and
> not ntpdate.
>
+1

> The current versions of the ntp package (since, like, Debian 6.x I
> think) incorporate the one-time clock slamming feature of ntpdate, so
> you don't need ntpdate at all.
>
> > If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees
> > closely with an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about
> > 10 min. fast.
>
> Once you've had ntp installed for several minutes (and possibly
> rebooted, if your clock was particularly bad), you can query it with
> "ntpq -p" to see how it's doing.
>
> Unfortunately, the output format of ntpq -p isn't DOCUMENTED anywhere,
> so it's a bit cryptic.  The most important thing to know, which is not
> stated anywhere except word of mouth like this email, is that the
> "offset" column is reporting milliseconds, not seconds.

Something else I had forgotten is the loading on the level 2 servers. But 
was reminded just now. I have ntp running on my router, and this machine 
is running on the routers time broadcasts which you can enable in 
dd-wrt, and most of the rest of my machines are set and controlled by 
the this machines rebroadcast, see the man pages about how to do that. 
So I supposedly have only one actual query going out to the network time 
servers despite there being 7 to 8 machines on my local network, so that 
6 or 7 machines that are not banging on the level 2 servers.

Thats simply being a good net citizen.
-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

OT: What time is it, really?

[Martin]

> Nowadays, unless you have religions objections, you should just enable
> systemd-timesyncd, it is the most lightweight and transparent way of
> enabling network time synchronization with nowadays Debian.

First of: The documentation sucks!
Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way, that it does serve ntp in 
my local network? I ran into that some weeks ago an it did not want to. So I'm 
back on ntpd.

Martin 

Re: What time is it, really?

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, 2018-08-09 at 11:00 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 10:49:52AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> > On Thu, 2018-08-09 at 10:35 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install
> > > ntp
> > 
> > 
> > Why not openntpd?
> > 
> > https://packages.debian.org/stretch/openntpd
> 
> Sure, whatever you prefer.  There are at least 4 viable alternatives:
> 
> ntp
> chrony
> openntpd
> systemd-timesyncd
> 
> Pick your favorite.  ntpdate and rdate are NOT included in this list.
> 

Well, It's not for me.  I was just asking why you suggested ntp over
openntpd?  One has more advantages over the other.

-Jim P.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: What time is it, really?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 10:49:52AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-08-09 at 10:35 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp
> 
> 
> Why not openntpd?
> 
> https://packages.debian.org/stretch/openntpd

Sure, whatever you prefer.  There are at least 4 viable alternatives:

ntp
chrony
openntpd
systemd-timesyncd

Pick your favorite.  ntpdate and rdate are NOT included in this list.

Re: What time is it, really?

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, 2018-08-09 at 10:35 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp


Why not openntpd?

https://packages.debian.org/stretch/openntpd


-Jim P.



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: What time is it, really?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 August 2018 10:19:46 Fred wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Someone complained off list about the timestamp in my emails being
> off. Being a hardware person I think hardware should work properly and
> clocks should keep accurate time.  So I installed ntpdate as suggested
> but it is not active yet.

And it only sets the clock once, at boot time.
>
Todays version of ntp(ntpd) handles that right well, my hardware clock is 
on grenwich and software on local, and both stay within 50 milliseconds 
of real time.

> If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees
> closely with an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10
> min. fast.
>
> fred@ragnok:~$ /usr/sbin/ntpdate -q time.nist.gov
> server 2610:20:6f96:96::4, stratum 1, offset -610.512368, delay
> 0.09421 server 132.163.96.4, stratum 1, offset -610.509394, delay
> 0.08899 9 Aug 06:51:15 ntpdate[13672]: step time server 132.163.96.4
> offset -610.509394 sec
>
> fred@ragnok:~$ date
> Thu Aug  9 06:51:18 MST 2018
>
> The time server is quite close to the computer clock.  What causes the
> discrepancy?  The offset in the time server response is about 10 min.
> The offset is measured from what to what and how is it measured?
>
As stated. ntp handles that by making small corrections so as to not 
disturb other time sensitive stuff on your computer. Thats another way 
of saying your 10 minute error may take it 4 hours to correct. The hdwe 
clock is set as part of the shutdown, so if you don't run 24/7, you 
don't start from square one the next time you powerup. And its so little 
cpu load you may not even find it with some of the monitoring 
facilities. Here, sorted on cpu usage, its about the 20th down the htop 
list.


> Best regards,
> Fred



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: What time is it, really?

[Nicolas George]

Fred (2018-08-09):
> Someone complained off list about the timestamp in my emails being off.
> Being a hardware person I think hardware should work properly and clocks
> should keep accurate time.  So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
> not active yet.

Nowadays, unless you have religions objections, you should just enable
systemd-timesyncd, it is the most lightweight and transparent way of
enabling network time synchronization with nowadays Debian.

ntpdate is not really good because it only does punctual queries; ntpd
and timesyncd will keep stats and adjust more accurately.

> If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely with
> an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.
> 
> fred@ragnok:~$ /usr/sbin/ntpdate -q time.nist.gov
> server 2610:20:6f96:96::4, stratum 1, offset -610.512368, delay 0.09421
> server 132.163.96.4, stratum 1, offset -610.509394, delay 0.08899
>  9 Aug 06:51:15 ntpdate[13672]: step time server 132.163.96.4
  ^^^
> offset -610.509394 sec
> 
> fred@ragnok:~$ date
> Thu Aug  9 06:51:18 MST 2018
> 
> The time server is quite close to the computer clock.

If you are looking at the time I underlined above, I am pretty sure
(looking at the source) that it is the local time, not the time returned
by the server.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: What time is it, really?

[Michael Stone]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 07:19:46AM -0700, Fred wrote:
Someone complained off list about the timestamp in my emails being 
off.  Being a hardware person I think hardware should work properly 
and clocks should keep accurate time.  So I installed ntpdate as 
suggested but it is not active yet.


If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees 
closely with an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 
min. fast.


fred@ragnok:~$ /usr/sbin/ntpdate -q time.nist.gov
server 2610:20:6f96:96::4, stratum 1, offset -610.512368, delay 0.09421
server 132.163.96.4, stratum 1, offset -610.509394, delay 0.08899
9 Aug 06:51:15 ntpdate[13672]: step time server 132.163.96.4
offset -610.509394 sec

fred@ragnok:~$ date
Thu Aug  9 06:51:18 MST 2018

The time server is quite close to the computer clock.  What causes the 
discrepancy?  The offset in the time server response is about 10 min.  
The offset is measured from what to what and how is it measured?


I'm having trouble understanding what you wrote here. What time do you 
think it should be when you ran the commands above?


Mike Stone

Re: What time is it, really?

[Martin]

Hi Fred,

your hardware clock may be off -> man hwclock.
You can sysc it to your system time with 'hwclock -w'. hwclock requires root 
powers.

Am 09.08.2018 um 16:19 schrieb Fred:
> Hi,
> 
> Someone complained off list about the timestamp in my emails being off.  
> Being a hardware person I think hardware should work properly and clocks 
> should keep accurate time.  So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is not 
> active yet.
> 
> If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely with 
> an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.
> 
> fred@ragnok:~$ /usr/sbin/ntpdate -q time.nist.gov
> server 2610:20:6f96:96::4, stratum 1, offset -610.512368, delay 0.09421
> server 132.163.96.4, stratum 1, offset -610.509394, delay 0.08899
>  9 Aug 06:51:15 ntpdate[13672]: step time server 132.163.96.4
> offset -610.509394 sec
> 
> fred@ragnok:~$ date
> Thu Aug  9 06:51:18 MST 2018
> 
> The time server is quite close to the computer clock.  What causes the 
> discrepancy?  The offset in the time server response is about 10 min.  The 
> offset is measured from what to what and how is it measured?
> 
> Best regards,
> Fred
> 
> 

Re: What time is it, really?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 07:19:46AM -0700, Fred wrote:
> So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
> not active yet.

Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp and
not ntpdate.

The current versions of the ntp package (since, like, Debian 6.x I think)
incorporate the one-time clock slamming feature of ntpdate, so you don't
need ntpdate at all.

> If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely with
> an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.

Once you've had ntp installed for several minutes (and possibly rebooted,
if your clock was particularly bad), you can query it with "ntpq -p" to
see how it's doing.

Unfortunately, the output format of ntpq -p isn't DOCUMENTED anywhere, so
it's a bit cryptic.  The most important thing to know, which is not stated
anywhere except word of mouth like this email, is that the "offset" column
is reporting milliseconds, not seconds.

What time is it, really?

[Fred]

Hi,

Someone complained off list about the timestamp in my emails being off.  
Being a hardware person I think hardware should work properly and clocks 
should keep accurate time.  So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it 
is not active yet.


If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely 
with an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.


fred@ragnok:~$ /usr/sbin/ntpdate -q time.nist.gov
server 2610:20:6f96:96::4, stratum 1, offset -610.512368, delay 0.09421
server 132.163.96.4, stratum 1, offset -610.509394, delay 0.08899
 9 Aug 06:51:15 ntpdate[13672]: step time server 132.163.96.4
offset -610.509394 sec

fred@ragnok:~$ date
Thu Aug  9 06:51:18 MST 2018

The time server is quite close to the computer clock.  What causes the 
discrepancy?  The offset in the time server response is about 10 min.  
The offset is measured from what to what and how is it measured?


Best regards,
Fred

Re: question about the kernel

[songbird]

mick crane wrote:

> Am I right in thinking that the kernel is a single codebase agreed 
> between all the kernel developers at any particular date and that Linux 
> distributions can take bits out from that for their release but 
> shouldn't add bespoke stuff that isn't agreed by everybody else ?
>
> just wondering how that works.

  reading the main mailing list for a while will give 
you an idea, but these are the main starting points
for the kernel in general:

  https://www.kernel.org/
  https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/

  the debian processes are done via the kernel
team and so you can also follow that mailing list
(i read via gmane and usenet).


  songbird

Re: Brother or Canon; not both

[Allen Hoover]

> On Wed 08 Aug 2018 at 19:12:09 -0500, Allen Hoover wrote:
> 
> > Ever since upgrading some customized Debian 64bit systems to Debian 8, I've
> > had trouble with the Canon UFRII printer drivers.  I've now been
> > testing this issue on a vanilla Debian 8, and Debian 9 system with the
> > same issues on both.
> > 
> > I use official Brother printer drivers which are i386 only, so have
> > multi-arch installed, and the libc6-i386 package.  The Canon UFRII
> > package installs fine, but when printing with any of those drivers the
> > following error shows in the status: "Idle - src =
> > libcanon_pdlwrapper.c, line = 514, err = 0nError Response:ReqNo=2,
> > SeqNo=3,opvpErrorNo=-2".  If I uninstall the libc6-i386 package, the
> > Canon drivers dont't throw an error, but the official Brother drivers
> > quit working. The Brother doesn't indicate any error, but it simply
> > prints nothing.
> > 
> > This was very repeatable on the 3 different systems( 2 systems were
> > fresh installs) I've tried.  Its like an On/Off switch, install
> > libc6-i386 and only one brand works, un-install and the only the other
> > brand works
> 
> Printer models, please.
> 
> -- 
> Brian.
> 
> 


The Canon issue first appeared with a Canon MF414, though the status error
message appears when using any of the UFRII drivers. I've been mainly testing
on a Brother MFC 9560, though at least one other official Brother driver has 
same issue.  I'm using very latest UFRII package.


Thanks, Allen

Re: [solved] Re: messages from GNU screen always in English

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 02:01:49PM +, davidson wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, davidson wrote:
> 
> >It seems that regardless of my locale (LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8,
> >LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8, etc), messages from GNU screen are
> >always in English.
> >
> >Has anyone else noticed this, or am I doing something wrong?
> 
> For taking the time to explain what is going on here, I am grateful to
> Greg Wooledge and Darac Marjal.

As another data point, here's the project home page:

  https://www.gnu.org/software/screen/

FWIW, they have one user and one devel mailing list

Cheers
- -- tomás
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAltsSUcACgkQBcgs9XrR2kab+ACeNaN5dFAv7X0VphNMfz2zo5/+
27EAn1swWe9urlGvZY68hMI7Y7wFhEzi
=0as2
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

[solved] Re: messages from GNU screen always in English

[davidson]

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, davidson wrote:


It seems that regardless of my locale (LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8,
LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8, etc), messages from GNU screen are
always in English.

Has anyone else noticed this, or am I doing something wrong?


For taking the time to explain what is going on here, I am grateful to
Greg Wooledge and Darac Marjal.

--
 The day will come  |  Last words, August Spies (1855--1887).
 When our silence will be   |  Hanged, by the state of Illinois,
 More powerful than |  alongside fellow journalists
 The voices you strangle today  |  Adolf Fischer and Albert Parsons.

Re: de proxmox

[luis]

Si ok eso si lo se, pero por ej intento conectarme por Filezilla para por
SSH copiar la salva en otra PC pero no hace nada.

Eso es lo que se me ocurre pero Filexilla no se conecta a Proxmox.

Hay que hacer algo para habilitar SSH ??


> /var/lib/vz/dump
>
> El 9/8/18, l...@ida.cu  escribió:
>> Buenos días a todos.
>>
>> Ya hice un backup de una Pc virtual que tengo en Proxmox.
>>
>> Mi pregunta es, cómo copiar esa salva para otro PC ?
>>
>>
>> Alguna idea ?
>>
>>
>> Agradezco toda ayuda
>>
>>
>

Re: question about the kernel

[Reco]

Hi.

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 12:45:39PM +, davidson wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, Reco wrote:
> 
> > Hi.
> > 
> > On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 08:15:42AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > > Am I right in thinking that the kernel is a single codebase agreed between
> > > all the kernel developers at any particular date
> > 
> > No. As [1] shows us, there's a mainline branch (aka to-be-released
> > kernel), stable branch (aka released kernel) and longterm support
> > branches.
> 
> For the record, I looked for the referent of "[1]", but couldn't find
> any pointer in Reco's message or OP's.
> 
> So I made a wild guess and went to
> 
>  https://www.kernel.org/

I missed that link indeed. Thank you.


> There I saw the list of downloads on the front page:
> 
> | mainline:   4.18-rc8 | stable: 4.17.14 | longterm:   4.14.62 |
> longterm:   4.9.119 | longterm:   4.4.147 | longterm:   3.18.118 [EOL] |
> longterm:   3.16.57 | linux-next: next-20180809
> 
> I'm going update my CV now: "Accomplished mind reader"

:)

Reco

Re: de proxmox

[Ramses]

El 9 de agosto de 2018 15:16:15 CEST, l...@ida.cu escribió:
>Buenos días a todos.
>
>Ya hice un backup de una Pc virtual que tengo en Proxmox.
>
>Mi pregunta es, cómo copiar esa salva para otro PC ?
>
>
>Alguna idea ?
>
>
>Agradezco toda ayuda

Copias el fichero generado desde:

/var/lib/vz/dump/

A la misma ubicación en el otro PC y lo restauras desde PROXMOX.


P.D.: Te falta poner el OT en el Asunto.

Saludos,

Ramsés

Re: messages from GNU screen always in English

[Darac Marjal]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 01:17:29PM +, davidson wrote:

It seems that regardless of my locale (LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8,
LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8, etc), messages from GNU screen are
always in English.

Has anyone else noticed this, or am I doing something wrong?

For the record, the following briefly illustrates what I do (for
example):

$ export LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8 ; screen # set locale for tty and start screen
$ exit # quit screen session
[screen is terminating]

The termination message above illustrates the unexpected behavior I am
talking about.

Also for the record:

$ locale -a
C
C.UTF-8
de_DE.utf8
en_US.utf8
fr_CA.utf8
fr_FR.utf8
POSIX
ru_RU.utf8

(By contrast, screen's ":time" command *does* obey the locale, though
it displays non-ascii characters incorrectly, and as far as I know
that is a different issue, possibly worth another thread.)

--
The day will come  |  Last words, August Spies (1855--1887).
When our silence will be   |  Hanged, by the state of Illinois,
More powerful than |  alongside fellow journalists
The voices you strangle today  |  Adolf Fischer and Albert Parsons.



"screen is terminating" is only found in one place in the screen 
source code, namely at [screen.c:1824][1]. It's wrapped by the function 
AddStr() which is defined at [display.c:2946][2] and which appears to 
merely be concerned with encoding, rather than translating the string 
provided.


So, in summary, "screen is terminating" is hard-coded in english, and 
you should probably raise a wishlist bug requesting it be 
translated/translatable.




[1] https://sources.debian.org/src/screen/4.6.2-3/screen.c/?hl=1824#L1824
[2] https://sources.debian.org/src/screen/4.6.2-3/display.c/?hl=2946#L2946

--
For more information, please reread.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: messages from GNU screen always in English

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 01:17:29PM +, davidson wrote:
> It seems that regardless of my locale (LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8,
> LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8, etc), messages from GNU screen are
> always in English.

That's because nobody has translated screen into other languages.
I don't even know whether the groundwork has been laid to make such
translations *possible*.

Compare these outputs:

dpkg -L bash | grep \\.mo
dpkg -L coreutils | grep \\.mo
dpkg -L screen | grep \\.mo

de proxmox

[luis]

Buenos días a todos.

Ya hice un backup de una Pc virtual que tengo en Proxmox.

Mi pregunta es, cómo copiar esa salva para otro PC ?


Alguna idea ?


Agradezco toda ayuda

messages from GNU screen always in English

[davidson]

It seems that regardless of my locale (LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8,
LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8, etc), messages from GNU screen are
always in English.

Has anyone else noticed this, or am I doing something wrong?

For the record, the following briefly illustrates what I do (for
example):

 $ export LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8 ; screen # set locale for tty and start screen
 $ exit # quit screen session
 [screen is terminating]

The termination message above illustrates the unexpected behavior I am
talking about.

Also for the record:

 $ locale -a
 C
 C.UTF-8
 de_DE.utf8
 en_US.utf8
 fr_CA.utf8
 fr_FR.utf8
 POSIX
 ru_RU.utf8

(By contrast, screen's ":time" command *does* obey the locale, though
it displays non-ascii characters incorrectly, and as far as I know
that is a different issue, possibly worth another thread.)

--
 The day will come  |  Last words, August Spies (1855--1887).
 When our silence will be   |  Hanged, by the state of Illinois,
 More powerful than |  alongside fellow journalists
 The voices you strangle today  |  Adolf Fischer and Albert Parsons.

Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 8/9/18, deloptes  wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:14:44 +0200
>> deloptes  wrote:
>>
>>> Joe wrote:
>>>
>>> > Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my
>>> > sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a
>>> > pig on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years,
>>> > and until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as
>>> > multiple NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them
>>> > reliably. I've solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal
>>> > and actually ripping out and blacklisting drivers for the sound
>>> > devices I'm not using. Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the
>>> > identity crisis.
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use
>>> stable. For my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for
>>> playing arround. If you want to be one step ahead of time, try
>>> testing it is usually stable.
>>
>> Outside the release freeze, testing is only a little more stable than
>> unstable, and gets fixes later. In the long term, there's not a lot to
>> choose.
>
> don't think so because after unstable iteration, the fixes usually work
> intesting.


That was my experience with testing.. Buster. It worked great *for me*.

I did finally figuratively "run away" while very literally "shrieking"
one day because there were SO MANY upgrades. I wasn't able to do both
that and the advocacy that MUST be done from behind this keyboard
right now. That just doesn't work on dialup... unfortunately... or I
would still be on testing.. :)

The first time I did testing was for Stretch. That happened to be at
the end of the cycle just before it became stable. It spoiled me.
Upgrades are much rarer at that point because Developers have
consciously put a hold on any new tweaks so as to have a product
that's legitimately ready to wear the tag "stable".

Something like that... :)

BECAUSE things are getting ready to roll over again sooner than later,
I decided this week to try another testing debootstrap. In fact, let's
do that right now. See ya! Can't do that and chat online at the same
time, either, dialup yada-yada.. :D

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

Re: question about the kernel

[davidson]

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, Reco wrote:


Hi.

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 08:15:42AM +0100, mick crane wrote:

Am I right in thinking that the kernel is a single codebase agreed between
all the kernel developers at any particular date


No. As [1] shows us, there's a mainline branch (aka to-be-released
kernel), stable branch (aka released kernel) and longterm support
branches.


For the record, I looked for the referent of "[1]", but couldn't find
any pointer in Reco's message or OP's.

So I made a wild guess and went to

 https://www.kernel.org/

There I saw the list of downloads on the front page:

| mainline:   4.18-rc8 
| stable: 4.17.14 
| longterm:   4.14.62 
| longterm:   4.9.119 
| longterm:   4.4.147 
| longterm:   3.18.118 [EOL] 
| longterm:   3.16.57 
| linux-next: next-20180809


I'm going update my CV now: "Accomplished mind reader"

--
Editor’s note: An earlier version of this article incorrectly included a tweet
by the International Organization for Standardization, which shares an acronym
with the International Socialist Organization. We regret the error.
conservativereview.com/news/chicago-international-socialist-organization-socialism-is-about-self-government/

Re: Configuration des sources avec synaptic

[Bernard Schoenacker]

- Mail original -
> De: "Sylvain Caselli" 
> À: "Bernard Schoenacker" 
> Cc: debian-user-french@lists.debian.org
> Envoyé: Jeudi 9 Août 2018 11:45:18
> Objet: Re: Configuration des sources avec synaptic
> 
> Le 09/08/2018 à 11:30, Bernard Schoenacker a écrit :
> >
> > - Mail original -
> >> De: "Sylvain Caselli" 
> >> À: "Bernard Schoenacker" 
> >> Cc: debian-user-french@lists.debian.org
> >> Envoyé: Jeudi 9 Août 2018 11:16:07
> >> Objet: Re: Configuration des sources avec synaptic
> >>
> >> Bonjour,
> >>
> >> Le 08/08/2018 à 09:32, Bernard Schoenacker a écrit :
> >>> bonjour,
> >>> serait il possible de vérifier la disponibilité des clés
> >>> installées
> >>> (?) :
> >>>
> >>>dpkg -l |awk '/keyring/ {print $1"  "$2"  "$3}'
> >>> ii  debian-archive-keyring  2017.7
> >>> ii  debian-keyring  2018.07.24
> >>> ii  gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0  3.12.0-1+b2
> >>> ii  gnome-keyring  3.28.2-1
> >>> ii  gnome-keyring-pkcs11:amd64  3.28.2-1
> >>> ii  libgnome-keyring-common  3.12.0-1
> >>> ii  libgnome-keyring0:amd64  3.12.0-1+b2
> >>> ii  libpam-gnome-keyring:amd64  3.28.2-1
> >>> ii  python3-keyring  13.1.0-1
> >>> ii  python3-keyrings.alt  3.0-1
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> apt policy debian-archive-keyring debian-keyring
> >>> debian-archive-keyring:
> >>> Installé : 2017.7
> >>> Candidat : 2017.7
> >>>Table de version :
> >>>2017.7+exp 1
> >>> 1 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian
> >>> experimental/main
> >>> amd64 Packages
> >>> 1 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian
> >>> experimental/main
> >>> i386 Packages
> >>>*** 2017.7 500
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main amd64
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main i386
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> >>>2017.5 500
> >>>   500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main amd64
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main i386
> >>>   Packages
> >>> debian-keyring:
> >>> Installé : 2018.07.24
> >>> Candidat : 2018.07.24
> >>>Table de version :
> >>>*** 2018.07.24 500
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main amd64
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main i386
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> >>>2017.05.28 500
> >>>   500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main amd64
> >>>   Packages
> >>>   500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main i386
> >>>   Packages
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> merci
> >>>
> >>> slt
> >>> bernard
> >>>
> >> Si j'ai bien compris :
> >>
> >>> sylvain@spc-portable:/media/sylvain/3661-B388$ dpkg -l |awk
> >>> '/keyring/
> >>> {print $1"  "$2"  "$3}'
> >>> ii  deb-multimedia-keyring  2016.8.1
> >>> ii  debian-archive-keyring  2017.5
> >>> ii  debian-keyring  2018.07.24
> >>> ii  gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0  3.12.0-1+b2
> >>> ii  libgnome-keyring-common  3.12.0-1
> >>> ii  libgnome-keyring0:amd64  3.12.0-1+b2
> >> et
> >>
> >>> sylvain@spc-portable:/media/sylvain/3661-B388$ apt policy
> >>> debian-archive-keyring debian-keyring
> >>> debian-archive-keyring:
> >>>    Installé : 2017.5
> >>>    Candidat : 2017.5
> >>>   Table de version :
> >>>   *** 2017.5 500
> >>>      500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64
> >>>      Packages
> >>>      100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> >>> debian-keyring:
> >>>    Installé : 2018.07.24
> >>>    Candidat : 2018.07.24
> >>>   Table de version :
> >>>   *** 2018.07.24 100
> >>>      100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> >>>   2017.05.28 500
> >>>      500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64
> >>>      Packages
> >> J'ai bon ?
> >>
> >> Sylvain.
> >>
> >   
> > Buongiorno signore Caselli,
> >
> > tutto va bene
> >
> > grazie mille
> >
> > salutazione
> >
> > Bernard
> >
> C'est vrai que mon père est né du côté de Florence (la plus belle
> ville
> du monde !) mais je ne parle malheureusement pas Italien.
> 
> Donc sinon les clés sont bonnes. Je peu donc ignorer le message qui
> s'affiche lors de la lecture des sources, aucune n'est ignorée ?
> 
> Merci encore, Sylvain.
> 
> 

Re: Using Sid

[deloptes]

Joe wrote:

> It's a dim memory now, but I've certainly been there and done that.
> 
> There's an indirection somewhere else that wasn't stable. It's probably
> ancient history now.

no it is not ancient history but it improved and still in some cases you
need to put index value. I guess you did not do the right thing, because
the right thing is to tell the driver index=0 or index=1
Anyway - frustration is what you are looking for and frustration is what you
get.

regards

Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)

[deloptes]

Joe wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:14:44 +0200
> deloptes  wrote:
> 
>> Joe wrote:
>> 
>> > Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my
>> > sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a
>> > pig on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years,
>> > and until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as
>> > multiple NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them
>> > reliably. I've solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal
>> > and actually ripping out and blacklisting drivers for the sound
>> > devices I'm not using. Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the
>> > identity crisis.
>> 
>> Hi,
>> for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use
>> stable. For my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for
>> playing arround. If you want to be one step ahead of time, try
>> testing it is usually stable.
> 
> Outside the release freeze, testing is only a little more stable than
> unstable, and gets fixes later. In the long term, there's not a lot to
> choose.

don't think so because after unstable iteration, the fixes usually work
intesting.

>> 
>> If you don't read/write code, I don't see why someone would use
>> unstable. As I mentioned ubuntu is much better to take in such a case
>> (Not a developer, but want to be ahead of debian time)
> 
> Because there are a few applications still under development, they are
> seriously buggy and continuously increasing in features. Even a few
> weeks can make a big difference in functionality. I'm looking at you,
> libreoffice, libreCAD, geda PCB, etc...
> 

This hasn't change much in the past 10 years - neither in stable nor in
testing


> And since I'm not a professional developer, unstable is the practical
> way to donate to Debian, in the form of bug reports. All the work has
> already been done in stable.
> 

Well, I said - in VM ware. I would not relay on it for daily use.

>> 
>> Regarding the sound - I never had a problem in the past 12+ years.
> 
> You are fortunate. I went though a period where the assignments for
> sound card 0 and 1 would randomly flip, every few weeks or months. I
> didn't find whatever magical incantation would prevent this, if it
> existed.
> 

I put index in the driver setup long time ago - never had an issue - you
don't need to mess up with udev rules - see there are intelligent hack and
not so intelligent. One should learn to find and use the intelligent one.

> If you look up sound problems in conjunction with Linux, the wealth of
> results you get will tell you how it has been. Because it has happened
> over such a long period of time, almost all of what you find will be
> obsolete and completely worthless, which makes fixing the problems so
> frustrating.
> 

well - identify intelligent resolutions and apply - no problem - but is
challenging - there are so many "experts" posting arround

>> Why? Because I did configure the system properly and I use stable. So
>> instead of "getting brutal" you could setup your system properly and
>> forget about the issues.
> 
> "Properly", eh? You mean spending a few days messing around with those
> intuitive udev naming rules? Why should that be necessary? Surely,
> running a *sound* utility *once*, and telling it which sound card I want
> to use should be sufficient? Why should I need to mess around with
> system stuff in order to choose my sound card and prevent it toggling
> my choice now and then? That kind of stuff should happen automatically
> at installation time, once and for all. Possibly it does, now.
> 

Not at all - I spent few days understanding how it works and applying proper
setup. One of my problems was and is still in some extend - bluetooth with
pulseaudio. I want be able to play music from phone to PC.
I ended up compiling pulseaudio and the latest release 11.99 pre seomthing
managed to solve allthe issues, so guess when I update PA next time ... you
can not guess - I will never remove this until there is something much
better - means I have a working setup and the source for this in my
control. It is not likely it will stop working soon.

>> 
>> One bad thing that people do is the install things on the production
>> system just to try them out. Take a second system - or a second drive
>> - or a second installation on the same driver. Test there and move to
>> the working environment, when you are sure it works.
>> With other works make backups before doing something on your
>> production system.
> 
> Yes, it would be nice to have batches of identical computers, and
> nothing to do all day but mess about with them... this isn't a
> commercial system, and I have neither the time nor the money to treat
> it as one. I'm a computer *user*.

You just mentioned above you want to contribute to debian and this is why
you take unstable - now contradicting yourself.
Look I met guys like you. I just wanted to give you good advice. Accept it
or not is your choice, but using 

Re: Brother or Canon; not both

[Brian]

On Wed 08 Aug 2018 at 19:12:09 -0500, Allen Hoover wrote:

> Ever since upgrading some customized Debian 64bit systems to Debian 8, I've
> had trouble with the Canon UFRII printer drivers.  I've now been
> testing this issue on a vanilla Debian 8, and Debian 9 system with the
> same issues on both.
> 
> I use official Brother printer drivers which are i386 only, so have
> multi-arch installed, and the libc6-i386 package.  The Canon UFRII
> package installs fine, but when printing with any of those drivers the
> following error shows in the status: "Idle - src =
> libcanon_pdlwrapper.c, line = 514, err = 0nError Response:ReqNo=2,
> SeqNo=3,opvpErrorNo=-2".  If I uninstall the libc6-i386 package, the
> Canon drivers dont't throw an error, but the official Brother drivers
> quit working. The Brother doesn't indicate any error, but it simply
> prints nothing.
> 
> This was very repeatable on the 3 different systems( 2 systems were
> fresh installs) I've tried.  Its like an On/Off switch, install
> libc6-i386 and only one brand works, un-install and the only the other
> brand works

Printer models, please.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Using Sid

[Joe]

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 11:24:18 +0200
Nemeth Gyorgy  wrote:

> 2018-08-09 11:10 keltezéssel, Joe írta:
> > You are fortunate. I went though a period where the assignments for
> > sound card 0 and 1 would randomly flip, every few weeks or months. I
> > didn't find whatever magical incantation would prevent this, if it
> > existed.  
> 
> module alias can help. I suppose the cards are different types and so
> for example:
> 
> alias snd-card-0 snd-hda-intel
> ... and so on.
> 

It's a dim memory now, but I've certainly been there and done that.

There's an indirection somewhere else that wasn't stable. It's probably
ancient history now.

-- 
Joe

Re: Configuration des sources avec synaptic

[Sylvain Caselli]

Le 09/08/2018 à 11:30, Bernard Schoenacker a écrit :


- Mail original -

De: "Sylvain Caselli" 
À: "Bernard Schoenacker" 
Cc: debian-user-french@lists.debian.org
Envoyé: Jeudi 9 Août 2018 11:16:07
Objet: Re: Configuration des sources avec synaptic

Bonjour,

Le 08/08/2018 à 09:32, Bernard Schoenacker a écrit :

bonjour,
serait il possible de vérifier la disponibilité des clés installées
(?) :

   dpkg -l |awk '/keyring/ {print $1"  "$2"  "$3}'
ii  debian-archive-keyring  2017.7
ii  debian-keyring  2018.07.24
ii  gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0  3.12.0-1+b2
ii  gnome-keyring  3.28.2-1
ii  gnome-keyring-pkcs11:amd64  3.28.2-1
ii  libgnome-keyring-common  3.12.0-1
ii  libgnome-keyring0:amd64  3.12.0-1+b2
ii  libpam-gnome-keyring:amd64  3.28.2-1
ii  python3-keyring  13.1.0-1
ii  python3-keyrings.alt  3.0-1


apt policy debian-archive-keyring debian-keyring
debian-archive-keyring:
Installé : 2017.7
Candidat : 2017.7
   Table de version :
   2017.7+exp 1
1 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian experimental/main
amd64 Packages
1 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian experimental/main
i386 Packages
   *** 2017.7 500
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main amd64 Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64
  Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main i386
  Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
  Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Packages
  100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
   2017.5 500
  500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main amd64
  Packages
  500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main i386
  Packages
debian-keyring:
Installé : 2018.07.24
Candidat : 2018.07.24
   Table de version :
   *** 2018.07.24 500
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main amd64 Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64
  Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main i386
  Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
  Packages
  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Packages
  100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
   2017.05.28 500
  500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main amd64
  Packages
  500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main i386
  Packages


merci

slt
bernard


Si j'ai bien compris :


sylvain@spc-portable:/media/sylvain/3661-B388$ dpkg -l |awk
'/keyring/
{print $1"  "$2"  "$3}'
ii  deb-multimedia-keyring  2016.8.1
ii  debian-archive-keyring  2017.5
ii  debian-keyring  2018.07.24
ii  gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0  3.12.0-1+b2
ii  libgnome-keyring-common  3.12.0-1
ii  libgnome-keyring0:amd64  3.12.0-1+b2

et


sylvain@spc-portable:/media/sylvain/3661-B388$ apt policy
debian-archive-keyring debian-keyring
debian-archive-keyring:
   Installé : 2017.5
   Candidat : 2017.5
  Table de version :
  *** 2017.5 500
     500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64
     Packages
     100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
debian-keyring:
   Installé : 2018.07.24
   Candidat : 2018.07.24
  Table de version :
  *** 2018.07.24 100
     100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
  2017.05.28 500
     500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64
     Packages

J'ai bon ?

Sylvain.

  
Buongiorno signore Caselli,


tutto va bene

grazie mille

salutazione

Bernard

C'est vrai que mon père est né du côté de Florence (la plus belle ville 
du monde !) mais je ne parle malheureusement pas Italien.


Donc sinon les clés sont bonnes. Je peu donc ignorer le message qui 
s'affiche lors de la lecture des sources, aucune n'est ignorée ?


Merci encore, Sylvain.

Re: Démarrage d'un pc à une heure programmée

[andre_debian]

On Wednesday 08 August 2018 23:14:51 jean-pierre giraud wrote:
> Le 08/08/2018 à 22:40, babouchko a écrit :
> > Il faut modifier la ligne défaut du fichier grub. (de mémoire grub.cfg,
> > mais grub ou 2...)
> >Des explications sur cette page : 
> https://www.debian-fr.org/t/choix-noyau-au-depart-etc-default-grub/58412/4
> En gros vérifier le numéro d'ordre du noyau à sélectionner par défaut et 
> modifier en conséquence la ligne GRUB_DEFAULT= dans le
> fichier /etc/default/grub 

GRUB_DEFAULT=0
lancera le 1er 'menuentry' de /boot/grub/grub.cfg
On peut aussi choisir un autre numéro des menuentry,
sinon l'expliciter en choisissant le menuentry à lancer par défaut, p. ex. :
GRUB_DEFAULT= 'Debian GNU/Linux, avec Linux 4.9.0-6-686-pae'

André

Re: Configuration des sources avec synaptic

[Bernard Schoenacker]

- Mail original -
> De: "Sylvain Caselli" 
> À: "Bernard Schoenacker" 
> Cc: debian-user-french@lists.debian.org
> Envoyé: Jeudi 9 Août 2018 11:16:07
> Objet: Re: Configuration des sources avec synaptic
> 
> Bonjour,
> 
> Le 08/08/2018 à 09:32, Bernard Schoenacker a écrit :
> > bonjour,
> > serait il possible de vérifier la disponibilité des clés installées
> > (?) :
> >
> >   dpkg -l |awk '/keyring/ {print $1"  "$2"  "$3}'
> > ii  debian-archive-keyring  2017.7
> > ii  debian-keyring  2018.07.24
> > ii  gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0  3.12.0-1+b2
> > ii  gnome-keyring  3.28.2-1
> > ii  gnome-keyring-pkcs11:amd64  3.28.2-1
> > ii  libgnome-keyring-common  3.12.0-1
> > ii  libgnome-keyring0:amd64  3.12.0-1+b2
> > ii  libpam-gnome-keyring:amd64  3.28.2-1
> > ii  python3-keyring  13.1.0-1
> > ii  python3-keyrings.alt  3.0-1
> >
> >
> > apt policy debian-archive-keyring debian-keyring
> > debian-archive-keyring:
> >Installé : 2017.7
> >Candidat : 2017.7
> >   Table de version :
> >   2017.7+exp 1
> >1 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian experimental/main
> >amd64 Packages
> >1 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian experimental/main
> >i386 Packages
> >   *** 2017.7 500
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main amd64 Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64
> >  Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main i386
> >  Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
> >  Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Packages
> >  100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> >   2017.5 500
> >  500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main amd64
> >  Packages
> >  500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main i386
> >  Packages
> > debian-keyring:
> >Installé : 2018.07.24
> >Candidat : 2018.07.24
> >   Table de version :
> >   *** 2018.07.24 500
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main amd64 Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64
> >  Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main i386
> >  Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
> >  Packages
> >  500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Packages
> >  100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> >   2017.05.28 500
> >  500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main amd64
> >  Packages
> >  500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main i386
> >  Packages
> >
> >
> > merci
> >
> > slt
> > bernard
> >
> Si j'ai bien compris :
> 
> > sylvain@spc-portable:/media/sylvain/3661-B388$ dpkg -l |awk
> > '/keyring/
> > {print $1"  "$2"  "$3}'
> > ii  deb-multimedia-keyring  2016.8.1
> > ii  debian-archive-keyring  2017.5
> > ii  debian-keyring  2018.07.24
> > ii  gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0  3.12.0-1+b2
> > ii  libgnome-keyring-common  3.12.0-1
> > ii  libgnome-keyring0:amd64  3.12.0-1+b2
> et
> 
> > sylvain@spc-portable:/media/sylvain/3661-B388$ apt policy
> > debian-archive-keyring debian-keyring
> > debian-archive-keyring:
> >   Installé : 2017.5
> >   Candidat : 2017.5
> >  Table de version :
> >  *** 2017.5 500
> >     500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64
> >     Packages
> >     100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> > debian-keyring:
> >   Installé : 2018.07.24
> >   Candidat : 2018.07.24
> >  Table de version :
> >  *** 2018.07.24 100
> >     100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
> >  2017.05.28 500
> >     500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64
> >     Packages
> J'ai bon ?
> 
> Sylvain.
> 
 
Buongiorno signore Caselli,

tutto va bene

grazie mille

salutazione

Bernard

Re: question about the kernel

[Darac Marjal]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 08:15:42AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the kernel is a single codebase agreed 
between all the kernel developers at any particular date and that 
Linux distributions can take bits out from that for their release but 
shouldn't add bespoke stuff that isn't agreed by everybody else ?


just wondering how that works.

mick



The kernel IS a single codebase. The definitive source for it is 
kernel.org and Linus et al combine the contributions from many sources 
into the code there.


In terms of modifying the code, the kernel is licensed under the GPL 
which, broadly speaking states "You may copy, distribute and modify 
the software as long as you track changes/dates in source files. Any 
modifications to or software including (via compiler) GPL-licensed 
code must also be made available under the GPL along with build & 
install instructions." (Courtesy of 
https://tldrlegal.com/license/gnu-general-public-license-v2). In 
practice, though, the kernel is very configurable and most distributions 
merely include or remove parts of the code by changing the configuration 
before compilation.


As for adding new code, there are two hurdles to getting that into the 
mainline kernel: it must be legally allowable as part of the kernel 
(e.g. Licensed under the GPL) and it must pass review (by the kernel 
maintainers). If you can't pass these hurdles, you can provide an 
out-of-kernel module (this is how things like Virtualbox, Wireguard and 
NVIDIA work). Your code is distributed separately, but includes the 
kernel headers and produces a kernel module which can be loaded. Doing 
this will TAINT the kernel, though (not necessarily a bad thing, but 
will alert developers to the fact that there may be issues).


--
For more information, please reread.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Using Sid

[Nemeth Gyorgy]

2018-08-09 11:10 keltezéssel, Joe írta:
> You are fortunate. I went though a period where the assignments for
> sound card 0 and 1 would randomly flip, every few weeks or months. I
> didn't find whatever magical incantation would prevent this, if it
> existed.

module alias can help. I suppose the cards are different types and so
for example:

alias snd-card-0 snd-hda-intel
... and so on.

Re: question about the kernel

[Reco]

Hi.

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 08:15:42AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> Am I right in thinking that the kernel is a single codebase agreed between
> all the kernel developers at any particular date

No. As [1] shows us, there's a mainline branch (aka to-be-released
kernel), stable branch (aka released kernel) and longterm support
branches.
Also, anyone can make their own fork of the kernel. To name the most
used ones there are RedHat's fork and OpenWRT's fork.


> and that Linux
> distributions can take bits out from that for their release

Every Linux distribution effectively maintains their own branch of
kernel, Debian included.
AFAIK Slackware is one of distributions that tries to to maintain the
least deviation from the upstream possible.


> but shouldn't
> add bespoke stuff that isn't agreed by everybody else ?

Tell that to RedHat, which single-handedly implemented their own special
way of signing the kernel and its modules (and which was not accepted by
upstream). Or Novell with their kgraft. Or Oracle with ksplice and dtrace.

Reco

Re: Configuration des sources avec synaptic

[Sylvain Caselli]

Bonjour,

Le 08/08/2018 à 09:32, Bernard Schoenacker a écrit :

bonjour,
serait il possible de vérifier la disponibilité des clés installées (?) :

  dpkg -l |awk '/keyring/ {print $1"  "$2"  "$3}'
ii  debian-archive-keyring  2017.7
ii  debian-keyring  2018.07.24
ii  gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0  3.12.0-1+b2
ii  gnome-keyring  3.28.2-1
ii  gnome-keyring-pkcs11:amd64  3.28.2-1
ii  libgnome-keyring-common  3.12.0-1
ii  libgnome-keyring0:amd64  3.12.0-1+b2
ii  libpam-gnome-keyring:amd64  3.28.2-1
ii  python3-keyring  13.1.0-1
ii  python3-keyrings.alt  3.0-1


apt policy debian-archive-keyring debian-keyring
debian-archive-keyring:
   Installé : 2017.7
   Candidat : 2017.7
  Table de version :
  2017.7+exp 1
   1 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian experimental/main amd64 Packages
   1 http://httpredir.debian.org/debian experimental/main i386 Packages
  *** 2017.7 500
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main amd64 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main i386 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Packages
 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
  2017.5 500
 500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main amd64 Packages
 500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main i386 Packages
debian-keyring:
   Installé : 2018.07.24
   Candidat : 2018.07.24
  Table de version :
  *** 2018.07.24 500
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main amd64 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian testing/main i386 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Packages
 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
  2017.05.28 500
 500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main amd64 Packages
 500 http://debian.proxad.net/debian stretch/main i386 Packages


merci

slt
bernard


Si j'ai bien compris :

sylvain@spc-portable:/media/sylvain/3661-B388$ dpkg -l |awk '/keyring/ 
{print $1"  "$2"  "$3}'

ii  deb-multimedia-keyring  2016.8.1
ii  debian-archive-keyring  2017.5
ii  debian-keyring  2018.07.24
ii  gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0  3.12.0-1+b2
ii  libgnome-keyring-common  3.12.0-1
ii  libgnome-keyring0:amd64  3.12.0-1+b2

et

sylvain@spc-portable:/media/sylvain/3661-B388$ apt policy 
debian-archive-keyring debian-keyring

debian-archive-keyring:
  Installé : 2017.5
  Candidat : 2017.5
 Table de version :
 *** 2017.5 500
    500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64 Packages
    100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
debian-keyring:
  Installé : 2018.07.24
  Candidat : 2018.07.24
 Table de version :
 *** 2018.07.24 100
    100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
 2017.05.28 500
    500 http://deb.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64 Packages

J'ai bon ?

Sylvain.

Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)

[Joe]

On Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:14:44 +0200
deloptes  wrote:

> Joe wrote:
> 
> > Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my
> > sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a
> > pig on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years,
> > and until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as
> > multiple NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them
> > reliably. I've solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal
> > and actually ripping out and blacklisting drivers for the sound
> > devices I'm not using. Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the
> > identity crisis.  
> 
> Hi,
> for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use
> stable. For my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for
> playing arround. If you want to be one step ahead of time, try
> testing it is usually stable.

Outside the release freeze, testing is only a little more stable than
unstable, and gets fixes later. In the long term, there's not a lot to
choose.
> 
> If you don't read/write code, I don't see why someone would use
> unstable. As I mentioned ubuntu is much better to take in such a case
> (Not a developer, but want to be ahead of debian time)

Because there are a few applications still under development, they are
seriously buggy and continuously increasing in features. Even a few
weeks can make a big difference in functionality. I'm looking at you,
libreoffice, libreCAD, geda PCB, etc...

And since I'm not a professional developer, unstable is the practical
way to donate to Debian, in the form of bug reports. All the work has
already been done in stable.

> 
> Regarding the sound - I never had a problem in the past 12+ years.

You are fortunate. I went though a period where the assignments for
sound card 0 and 1 would randomly flip, every few weeks or months. I
didn't find whatever magical incantation would prevent this, if it
existed.

If you look up sound problems in conjunction with Linux, the wealth of
results you get will tell you how it has been. Because it has happened
over such a long period of time, almost all of what you find will be
obsolete and completely worthless, which makes fixing the problems so
frustrating.

> Why? Because I did configure the system properly and I use stable. So
> instead of "getting brutal" you could setup your system properly and
> forget about the issues.

"Properly", eh? You mean spending a few days messing around with those
intuitive udev naming rules? Why should that be necessary? Surely,
running a *sound* utility *once*, and telling it which sound card I want
to use should be sufficient? Why should I need to mess around with
system stuff in order to choose my sound card and prevent it toggling
my choice now and then? That kind of stuff should happen automatically
at installation time, once and for all. Possibly it does, now.

> 
> One bad thing that people do is the install things on the production
> system just to try them out. Take a second system - or a second drive
> - or a second installation on the same driver. Test there and move to
> the working environment, when you are sure it works.
> With other works make backups before doing something on your
> production system.

Yes, it would be nice to have batches of identical computers, and
nothing to do all day but mess about with them... this isn't a
commercial system, and I have neither the time nor the money to treat
it as one. I'm a computer *user*.

-- 
Joe

(solved) Re: which program/command can show wireless connection quality?

[Long Wind]

 
Thank Reco!

link quality of usb adapter in question seems good, according to wavemon
there might be other problem, that cause it to seem unstable
On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 3:00:45 PM GMT+8, Reco  
wrote:  
 
     Hi.

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 12:29:31AM +, Long Wind wrote:
> i have a USB wireless card, it doesn't seem stable, sometimes it's slow
> i even suspect changing USB connector can affect network speed
> 
> which program can show connection quality?

These two should work with any network interface (watch for error and
dropped frames):

netstat -ni 1

watch -n1 "ip -s a l"

Wireless specifics (signal strength, noise ratio, etc) are better viewed
by airodump-ng from aircrack-ng package, although stock iw or iwconfig
should do too.

Also, consider wrapping a sheet of tin foil around USB WiFi dongle,
transforming stock omni-directional antenna to uni-directional.

Reco

  

question about the kernel

[mick crane]

Am I right in thinking that the kernel is a single codebase agreed 
between all the kernel developers at any particular date and that Linux 
distributions can take bits out from that for their release but 
shouldn't add bespoke stuff that isn't agreed by everybody else ?


just wondering how that works.

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: which program/command can show wireless connection quality?

[Reco]

Hi.

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 12:29:31AM +, Long Wind wrote:
> i have a USB wireless card, it doesn't seem stable, sometimes it's slow
> i even suspect changing USB connector can affect network speed
> 
> which program can show connection quality?

These two should work with any network interface (watch for error and
dropped frames):

netstat -ni 1

watch -n1 "ip -s a l"

Wireless specifics (signal strength, noise ratio, etc) are better viewed
by airodump-ng from aircrack-ng package, although stock iw or iwconfig
should do too.

Also, consider wrapping a sheet of tin foil around USB WiFi dongle,
transforming stock omni-directional antenna to uni-directional.

Reco

Re: SystemD problem with launching a server

[john doe]

On 8/9/2018 1:02 AM, Bill wrote:

Hi,

So I'd like to run rinetd at boot time on Stretch along with sshd.

I've no problem running rinetd manually using /usr/sbin/rinetd
or in a script using the same command. ps aux |grep rinetd shows it's 
running and it works as expected.


So I've written a service file for systemd, 
/etc/systemd/system/rinetd.service and enabled it with systemctl enable 
/etc/systemd/system/rinetd.service. At boot time the file gets run but 
nothing shows up with ps aux, although sshd is running correctly. I 
think the problem is with the systemd file. Here's the rinetd.service file:


# /etc/systemd/system/rinetd.service
# A systemd.service file to start
# /usr/sbin/rinetd at boot time.

[Unit]
Description=Start rinetd server
After=multi-user.target network.target sshd.service

[Service]
Type=oneshot
ExecStart=/usr/sbin/rinetd
Restart=no

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target

Any clues? Is this file too sparse? Or am I pining for the fjords?



Do you see anything in the log (systemctl status rinetd)?

From google:

https://github.com/mixool/rinetd/wiki/System-startup-script
https://github.com/mixool/rinetd

Isn't Debian providing a service file?

--
John Doe

Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)

[deloptes]

Joe wrote:

> Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my
> sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a pig
> on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years, and
> until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as multiple
> NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them reliably. I've
> solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal and actually ripping
> out and blacklisting drivers for the sound devices I'm not using.
> Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the identity crisis.

Hi,
for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use stable. For
my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for playing arround.
If you want to be one step ahead of time, try testing it is usually stable.

If you don't read/write code, I don't see why someone would use unstable. As
I mentioned ubuntu is much better to take in such a case (Not a developer,
but want to be ahead of debian time)

Regarding the sound - I never had a problem in the past 12+ years. Why?
Because I did configure the system properly and I use stable. So instead
of "getting brutal" you could setup your system properly and forget about
the issues.

One bad thing that people do is the install things on the production system
just to try them out. Take a second system - or a second drive - or a
second installation on the same driver. Test there and move to the working
environment, when you are sure it works.
With other works make backups before doing something on your production
system.

regards