Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Celejar]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:47:22 +0300
Reco  wrote:

>   Hi.
> 
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Lee wrote:

...

> > I just did a quick search and couldn't find anything for smart TVs
> > using DOH.
> 
> Probably because they aren't there yet. A typical smart TV is based on
> the Android, and Google haven't said their word about DOH so far.

I suppose you mean DoH specifically, as opposed to DNS over TLS (DoT),
but just to clarify for the record, they have implemented the latter:

https://blog.cloudflare.com/enable-private-dns-with-1-1-1-1-on-android-9-pie/
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-enable-dns-over-tls-in-android-pie/

Celejar

Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[황병희]

[sorry man it just off message]

 writes:

> ...
> But I'm just a dumb C programmer :-)

Oh tomas! you awesome!
Actually i like C programmer(s) ^^^

Sincerely, Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _白衣從軍_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[John Hasler]

 Kenneth Parker writes:
> But I want to test Discourse *with* Javascript, so that I understand
> the difference.

I just tried it with JS.  Better without.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Kenneth Parker]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 8:44 PM John Hasler  wrote:

> Kenneth Parker writes:
> > On a Laptop of mine, I have an old version of Firefox, with the
> > "NoScript" add-on.  I wonder how it would work there.
>
> Works ok for a casual test.  I have no acount so I have no idea how it
> would work for posting, though.
>

Same for me.  (The Firefox-ESR was the "current" version for Debian
Jessie).

"Works best with Javascript" could turn into "Requires Javascript"
> from one release to the next, though.
>

True enough!   But I want to test Discourse  *with*  Javascript, so that I
understand the difference.  My "safe test bed"?  A Debian Buster Gnome
Live-DVD, and *its* version of Firefox.

Okay:  *THAT* version of Discourse had about 3 or 4 times longer page than
I remember without Javascript.  So yes, Discourse is based, quite heavily
on Javascript.

So I would say that, since the "NoScript" version of Discourse was a
Skeleton of a page, tells me that it "Requires Javascript".

-- 
> John Hasler
> jhas...@newsguy.com
> Elmwood, WI USA
>

Thanks!  Kenneth Parker

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[John Hasler]

Kenneth Parker writes:
> On a Laptop of mine, I have an old version of Firefox, with the
> "NoScript" add-on.  I wonder how it would work there.

Works ok for a casual test.  I have no acount so I have no idea how it
would work for posting, though.

"Works best with Javascript" could turn into "Requires Javascript"
from one release to the next, though.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: appropriate list or forum to use for discussing application development in debian

[songbird]

 wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 01:02:33PM -0700, Dan Hitt wrote:
>> I have a question to raise about application development in debian.
>>=20
>> Debian has a lot of development mailing lists, but afaict, they're about
>> preparation of or bug reports of different packages.
>>=20
>> That's not the right subject for me, as my question is more about what
>> tools to use, which are more stable, and which fit in better with debian.
>>=20
>> But this is not really a user question, more like a programmer-user
>> question.
>
> If you're using tools packaged by Debian to write programs... you
> are a Debian user. So you'd be right here.

  yes, it's not like this is a huge volume list and you
can always skip over things you don't care to read.

  just be clear in the subject line.  :)  (and don't top
post or use html)...


> Of course, if what you are developing is a Debian specific program
> (say, for example, apt) then there are more specific lists.
>
> The whole list of uh... lists is on https://lists.debian.org/


  songbird

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Kenneth Parker]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 1:15 PM Reco  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 06:09:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > On the contrary, it is different and requires a modern Web browser
> (how
> > > > does the non-GUI user participate since it is noted that an email
> user
> > > > is a distant second-class user?) but as he notes it is a centralized
> > > > database that facilitates an amount of control that is lacking with
> > > > email lists.  I think that the key to the discussion is that some
> people
> > > > seek greater control over discussions.
> > >
> > > Moreover, it brings two interesting aspects of the problem:
> > >
> > > 1) By its design the Discourse relies on Javascript executing in user's
> > > browser. While Discourse itself may be the free software, such usage of
> > > Discourse violates Software Freedom 1 ("change it so it does your
> > > computing as you wish").
> >
> > I understand the concern with Javascript. I have read what there is of
> > Discourse using Lynx. Am I missing out an anything?
>
> Wow. Just wow. Thank you for the idea.
> I confirm that it's enough to use any text-based browser (be it lynx,
> links or w3m) to read, say, discourse.mozilla.org.
> Cannot comment if it's possible to participate there with these fine
> browsers (the answers is probably "no"), but it's a start.
>

Okay.  I have a Text only Server (due to a Mouse issue with our Kindred
Distro, Devuan), and so put this to the test.

First, w3m apparently doesn't do Redirects, instead, giving the short page,
*describing* the Redirect to come.  (I remember these from using wget).

However, I got a good page, using lynx. (Hard to read, as I'm sure the
Pictures describe a lot of what Discourse is trying to do).  And it was
amusing to see the bottom of the page, with the message:  "Powered by
Discourse, best viewed with Javascript enabled".

So, at least with Lynx, the page will load without Javascript.

On a Laptop of mine, I have an old version of Firefox, with the "NoScript"
add-on.  I wonder how it would work there.  If I find out anything good,
I'll check back in.

Thank you!

Kenneth Parker


>
> Reco
>
>

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 13, 2020, Sven Hartge wrote:
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
>> [...]
> > TS was basically *required* while in a big engagement though.  If you
> > weren't on TS, you weren't in the raid / fleet / whatever the game at
> > hand called it. 
> 
> I think the TS/Mumble vs. Forum comparison is flawed here, it was unwise
> of me to bring this to the table, because both serve completely
> different use-cases in most cases.

Honestly, you're not that far off the mark though -- for those groups
that didn't force TS/Mumble, those of us who would go between both as
necessary would see the divergence of the group into "the forum people"
and "the speech people".


-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2020 13 Apr 15:27 -0500, Sven Hartge wrote:
> What I am saying here is that by having multiple channels of
> communication you naturally get different groups of people in them which
> tend to drift apart sooner or later, because each group isn't
> represented in the other media. And then you get the "forum casuals"
> against the "mailinglist greybeards" against the "IRC noobs" in the end.

So, we need one more silo to contain them all?  Insert obligatory XKCD
here as I'm sure is one that applies.

> I can see why the GNOME people choose to close all other communication
> channels and focus on one and only one: to avoid splintering the
> community. 
> 
> That by doing so they may have lost some members who absolutely didn't
> want to use the new way of communicating and if they anticipated and
> went with it anyways I can't say from the outside.

They certainly did lose users.  It seems the GTK subreddit is active as
a result and probably some Web forums, unrelated mailing lists elsewhere
and maybe even some Usenet group.

If Free Software, Linux, and the entire software ecosystem we enjoy
should have taught us anything it is that it is impossible to contain
everything in a single silo.  Considering the breadth of topics on this
list over the years and the topics of all the other Debian lists, not
all of this can possibly thrown into a single Discourse silo with only
tagging to provide any separation, can it?  The scope of the Gnome
project is much smaller but still large enough that I don't find their
Discourse implementation to be all that friendly (in terms of Discourse
and their chosen layout, not the people involved) and I've been around
plenty of Web forums over the past couple of decades.

Every approach, Usenet, mailing lists, Web forums, Reddits, et. al. has
a certain amount of onboarding/learning curve.  If you don't have
separate topic-based implementations of the preceding and think that
everything can be done with tags, the segregation will still exist as
those interested in a certain topic will only search for certain tags
and thus an improperly tagged post may still be ignored.  This is how I
see Gnome's Discourse working, for some definition of working.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



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Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Lee]

On 4/13/20, tomas wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Lee wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Mozilla claims it's a privacy issue:
>> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https
>>   Benefits
>
> Yes, sure [1], but *not in each and every friggin' application*.

I prefer apps that don't "phone home".

> It'd be OK for the local DNS caching resolver to forward its
> queries to some DOH responder "out there", *configurable by
> the local sys admin. Locally, you have the same posibilities
> (resolv.conf, nsswitch, hosts).

Agreed.  But how many home users have a local sys admin?  That knows
how to configure the local resolver?

OK .. on this list, probably most.  But *nix users are what percentage
of all users?

> [1] I know. Even with DNSSEC, your ISP can see it /is/ DNS
>traffic,

dnssec just adds a cryptographic signature to the data -- everything
is still done "in the clear" (like Debian updates.  or has buster
switched to using https for downloading updates?)

> whereas they have given up (have they)? on sniffing  https.

not that I've heard.  There's something coming Real Soon Now that will
prevent ISPs from seeing the name of the server you're connecting to
but I don't remember what it's called right now :(

Regards
Lee

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Lee]

On 4/13/20, Reco  wrote:
>   Hi.

Hi

> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Lee wrote:
>> > The questionable idea behind DOH is that the browser makers do not
>> > trust
>> > your local resolver.
>>
>> Mozilla claims it's a privacy issue:
>> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https
>
> It's a privacy issue along with the other things.
> With the default settings the Firefox user is handing all DNS resolution
> to Cloudflare. Not an equivalent to complete browsing history, but close
> enough.

Right.  The ISP can't see what names the user is looking up but
Cloudflare sees every single one.  On the other hand, take a look at
  https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/DOH-resolver-policy

Not that I understand my ISP's privacy policy, but I don't see anything like
  [will not] sell, license, sublicense, or grant any rights to user data to
  any other person or entity.
in my ISP's privacy policy.  So at least in that sense, handing my
data to Cloudflare is better than letting my ISP have it.

>> > 1) One can use a local resolver with the ability *not* to resolve
>> > certain DNS queries, which refer to the sites which just happen to
>> > contain advertisements, fingerprinting, tracking, cryptomining etc.
>> > Since all two major browser makers (Google and Mozilla) happen to rely
>> > on revenue generated by advertising *and* users' browsing habits this
>> > obviously can not be tolerated.
>>
>> Wasn't there a fairly recent kerfluffle about an upcoming change to
>> chrome that would break things like the uMatrix addon?
>
> There was, indeed.
>
>
>> If firefox wasn't a viable alternative to chrome, what are the chances
>> that change would have been implemented?
>
> It is implemented already, it's just there are alternatives to
> declarativeNetRequest that are working - so far.

Ahh.  I thought Google backed down on the change..
I don't use chrome, so I don't follow what they're doing other than
reading the occasional news article.

>> > 3) Bad guys and gals can hijack DNS too, to the usual hilarious
>> > results.
>>
>> And the bad guys and gals can use DOH to "hide" their traffic and
>> circumvent things like pihole.
>
> There is tor or i2p for *that* already.

Right.  Again :)

>> I just did a quick search and couldn't find anything for smart TVs
>> using DOH.
>
> Probably because they aren't there yet. A typical smart TV is based on
> the Android, and Google haven't said their word about DOH so far.
>
>
>> > With the advent of HTTPS all this may be seen as moot points (if you're
>> > redirected elsewhere the certificate validation should fail), but
>> > nevertheless DOH is forced upon the collective throat of Firefox users
>> > as we speak (and Chrome users are likely to follow them Soon™).
>> > Currently a Firefox user is supposed to trust Cloudflare to do DNS
>> > queries for them, and HTTPS is used for this purpose because Security™.
>>
>> For some values of "security", DOH _is_ more secure.
>
> As far as the "last mile" is concerned - maybe.

How about as far as the "end user" is concerned? (which is what I
thought we were talking about -- clueless end-users having doh forced
on them)

> As far as the whole
> Internet goes - not so much as overall security of DNS queries depends
> of DNSSEC implemented in every zone (and it ain't there yet).

Unfortunately, yes.  DNSSEC adoption is way below where I was hoping it'd be.

>> How many people use a dnssec validating resolver?
>
> See above. Besides, DNSSEC is for integrity of zones, not privacy.
> You need DNS-over-TLS if you need last one.

"integrity of zones" is part of "security" - yes?
DoT or DoH - either one gets you privacy from your ISP
DoT is easy to block, DoH is harder to block, so somewhat censorship resistant?

>> At least Cloudflare resolvers have dnssec enabled.
>
> *And* the ability to see users' DNS queries. Neat, right?

Yup, and probably a net win for people that don't have a clue about
dns .. or at least people in the US.  Do people in the EU have to
worry about their ISP selling their usage data?

Regards,
Lee

Re: appropriate list or forum to use for discussing application development in debian

[Andy Smith]

Hi Dan,

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:20:00PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 01:02:33PM -0700, Dan Hitt wrote:
> > my question is more about what tools to use, which are more
> > stable, and which fit in better with debian.
> > 
> > But this is not really a user question, more like a programmer-user
> > question.
> 
> If you're using tools packaged by Debian to write programs... you
> are a Debian user. So you'd be right here.

I would tend to agree that if the first stage of the problem is
deciding which packages, languages, libraries etc to use when
developing something on Debian then it sounds like a user question
as this is a user activity.

After you identify these things there may be more appropriate
upstream communities for each item that can answer in-depth
questions. Also your further questions probably won't be
Debian-specific.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Tom Dial]

On 4/12/20 22:36, Celejar wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:47:52 -0700
> Ihor Antonov  wrote:
> 
>> On Sunday, April 12, 2020 12:39:43 PM PDT John Hasler wrote:
>>> I note that Discourse is not in the Debian archive.
>>>
>>> Not that it matters, but I certainly won't use Discourse and if most
>>> debian-user traffic were to shift to Discourse I would simply stop
>>> subscribing.
>>>
>>> "Ease of moderation" is *not* a plus.
>>
>> +1
>> Observing how zealots have moderated Norbert Preining is a perfect example 
>> of how 
>> biased and closed-minded those moderators can be.
> 
> +1
> 
> Moderation seems eminently reasonable on paper, but in practice, my
> experiences with it have been generally bad (stack exchange sites, some
> other mailing lists).

As a fairly regular reader and occasional participant here, I'd like to
offer a comment. This list, and from what I have seen, the laptop and
security lists, do not seem to need moderation. Occasionally a post is a
bit over the top, and as far as I can tell are generally corrected by a
relatively gentle reply or suggestion (e. g., don't top post).

Full disclosure:
1. I am of the older persuasion, and therefore(?) quite happy with email
and the conversational style it promotes.

2. I might be thought biased against moderation, having been unpersoned
by the Editor in Chief ("This account is no longer allowed to
participate on The Register forums"), apparently for asking why he
rejected a post I thought unobjectionable and entirely compliant with
the comments guidelines.

3. I also know nothing about Discourse. Although the remarks so far in
the thread don't particularly make me want to use it, I don't find the
idea entirely abhorrent.

Tom Dial

> 
> Celejar
> 

Re: Synaptic error

[David Wright]

On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 08:54:25 (+0300), Reco wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 06:50:04PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > On Sun 12 Apr 2020 at 15:46:45 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 08:43:12AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > > Using Synaptic I:
> > > > 1. searched package names for "info"
> > > > 2. selected it
> > > > 3. clicked Apply
> > > > 4. received error message saying
> > > > >E: Could not open lock file /var/cache/apt/archives/lock - open (2: No 
> > > > >such file or directory)
> > > > >E: Could not open file descriptor -1
> > > > >E: Unable to lock the download directory
> > > 
> > > Question: is there a /var/cache/apt/archives directory? There should
> > > be one.
> > 
> > The impression given by the FHS is that, upon deletion, the system
> > should be able to recreate anything in a cache directory.
> 
> That is assuming that the cache directory itself is existing (i.e.
> /var/cache, and everything down the filesystem hierarchy that's needed).
> Note that FHS part you're quoting specifically refers to the "files",
> not anything else.

I think you're right, of course, and it's probably necessary to dpkg -S
(or grep /var/lib/dpkg/info/*list) for the directory/ies, and reinstall
their creator, apt, after manually downloading it (in the absence of
hints given here).

Cheers,
David.

Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

[David Wright]

On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 09:47:25 (-0400), Celejar wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:03:30 - (UTC) Curt  wrote:
> > On 2020-04-11,   wrote:
> > >
> > > Note that I'm not recommending that site. It was just one
> > > hit in the search engine.
> > 
> > I found another outfit that nailed me within a 50 meter radius (if that
> > demonstrates anything).
> > 
> >  https://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo
> > 
> > I'm not recommending these people either, BTW.
> 
> I'm not recommending them either, but note that they're a major
> geolocation player, with dozens of packages in Debian that deal with
> their data / format:
> 
> ~$ apt-cache search maxmind | wc
>  26 2411820

My own IP should be rather easy to locate, as it's provided by the
local cable company in a town that's the main centre of its
"Combined Statistical Area" (to use the official jargon). So it's
likely there's some sort of "concentrator" just down the way
that leasing the current IP number.

So I looked up my email host instead, in a number of sites. The
answers varied from an office block in Manchester, the current
company HQ, to the middle of the Thames outside the Houses of
Parliament, to an estate agent (realtor) in Pewsey, a Wiltshire
village in kind of the middle of nowhere, which was the company HQ
until 2012.

I think the correct answer is that the data centre is in Stockport,
but companies aren't usually interested in publicising these places.

It would appear that, rather than use sophisticated route-tracing
through the interweb's plumbing, the web sites just consult
databases of varying quality and uptodateness.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Dan Purgert  wrote:
> On Apr 13, 2020, Sven Hartge wrote:
>> Dan Purgert  wrote:
>>> On Apr 13, 2020, Sven Hartge wrote:

 And I've also witnissed this in other contexts, be it in an
 Enterprise setup (where one group flocks to Confluence and the
 other stay in the mailinglist) or a MMO guild, where one group
 prefers to converse in Teamspeak and the other uses the forum.
 
>>> forum-only people are filthy casuals and should be shown the door :)
>> 
>> Well, no. In my experience it always depends on what medium was
>> first.  This one will have the most experienced users. Everything
>> coming later will most likely having a harder time getting (fully)
>> integrated.

> I was specifically taking the reference of your guild / mmo context.
> In my case, we would always spin up both a forum and TS (or the
> experienced were always on both). In fact, I think a forum account was
> more often than not required in order to even get on TS in the first
> place.

Even more if you tied the TS server to the forum account, yes.

> TS was basically *required* while in a big engagement though.  If you
> weren't on TS, you weren't in the raid / fleet / whatever the game at
> hand called it. 

I think the TS/Mumble vs. Forum comparison is flawed here, it was unwise
of me to bring this to the table, because both serve completely
different use-cases in most cases.

Comparing a mailinglist with a forum, as in fact the thread is about, is
more apt.

Grüße,
Sven

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Dan Purgert  wrote:

> Not necessarily.  More like that communication tends to fall apart when
> there are multiple methods of communication.

> Take this entirely anecdotal situation that happened to us this year:

>  - most of the family is on facebook / email, so sent them an electronic
>invitation to a Christmas party

>  - one aunt doesnt, so we mailed out a card.

> Got told after Thanksgiving that aunt felt left out as people were
> talking about it over that holiday (our party is early / mid-december;
> well before "office parties" and the like). Called her up, and it
> turned out she never got the invitation.

Same example from my circle of friends and aquaintances:

 - some use WhatsApp
 - some use Facebook
 - some use Mail (like me)

There is a bit of overlap between the first two and nearly everyone in
the first two groups also has a mail account, but interestingly not all.

What now happens if some activitiv is planned depends on in which group
initator is, that is the circle that mostly plans and decides stuff, and
then maybe some time later, this is also relayed through the other
channels.

And as you might imagine, this creates failures in commication, for
example a BBQ was planned, but only the WhatsApp-People and some
Facebookies where there, because the Mail-Guys got the message far too
late.

Or in the other direction, a game evening was planned via mail, but
nobody relayed that to the people who don't read their mail account
daily.

Etc. Etc.

10 years ago, WhatsApp didn't exist (OK, it came out in 2009, but in
2010 nobody was using it) and only email was used in our group and those
kind of problems didn't exist, because only one communications channel
was used.

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 13, 2020, Sven Hartge wrote:
> Dan Purgert  wrote:
> > On Apr 13, 2020, Sven Hartge wrote:
> 
> >> And I've also witnissed this in other contexts, be it in an
> >> Enterprise setup (where one group flocks to Confluence and the other
> >> stay in the mailinglist) or a MMO guild, where one group prefers to
> >> converse in Teamspeak and the other uses the forum.
> 
> > forum-only people are filthy casuals and should be shown the door :)
> 
> Well, no. In my experience it always depends on what medium was first.
> This one will have the most experienced users. Everything coming later
> will most likely having a harder time getting (fully) integrated.

I was specifically taking the reference of your guild / mmo context.  In
my case, we would always spin up both a forum and TS (or the experienced
were always on both). In fact, I think a forum account was more often
than not required in order to even get on TS in the first place.

TS was basically *required* while in a big engagement though.  If you
weren't on TS, you weren't in the raid / fleet / whatever the game at
hand called it. 

> 
> Again, in my experience, YMMV.
> 
> >> In all cases it lead to rifts and problems down the line.
> >> 
> >> As hard as it is, one should commit to *one* communications channel
> >> and only one, as to not create parallel "societies".
> 
> > In the groups I've been in, it was always that a formal discussion
> > (e.g.  a quarterly state-of-the group / planning session), if held on
> > teamspeak,  was recapped on the most permanent thing -- that is, the
> > forums/mailinglist/etc.
> 
> Different subject here. Sure, you want to have the meeting minutes and
> the decisions from the meeting somewhere to be referred to, be it a
> website, a forum, a mailinglist (which feeds into an archive, which is
> most times a website again).
> 
> But that comes *after* the fact, after the discussion and the decision
> has been made.
> 
> In your example, everyone not participating in the meeting in TS is cut
> off and only gets to read it in the minutes.

Well, TS or ingame chat or whatever "realtime medium" was used.  To be
fair though; it's been like 10 years since I've been heavily involved in
MMOs, and I'm probably forgetting a bit.  I seem to recall that the
discussions were more just a realtime review of a longer-standing (say a
week?) forum thread to hammer out the issues people raised over that
time; and a bit of "what're we gonna do to make the game fun again for
our people". 

> 
> There was no live TS-to-IRC/forum transcriber active at the meeting and
> nobody that read the IRC channel/forum back to the TS to get the other
> people involved directyly.
> 
> What I am saying here is that by having multiple channels of
> communication you naturally get different groups of people in them which
> tend to drift apart sooner or later, because each group isn't
> represented in the other media. And then you get the "forum casuals"
> against the "mailinglist greybeards" against the "IRC noobs" in the end.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that idea :)


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Dan Purgert  wrote:
> On Apr 13, 2020, Sven Hartge wrote:

>> And I've also witnissed this in other contexts, be it in an
>> Enterprise setup (where one group flocks to Confluence and the other
>> stay in the mailinglist) or a MMO guild, where one group prefers to
>> converse in Teamspeak and the other uses the forum.

> forum-only people are filthy casuals and should be shown the door :)

Well, no. In my experience it always depends on what medium was first.
This one will have the most experienced users. Everything coming later
will most likely having a harder time getting (fully) integrated.

Again, in my experience, YMMV.

>> In all cases it lead to rifts and problems down the line.
>> 
>> As hard as it is, one should commit to *one* communications channel
>> and only one, as to not create parallel "societies".

> In the groups I've been in, it was always that a formal discussion
> (e.g.  a quarterly state-of-the group / planning session), if held on
> teamspeak,  was recapped on the most permanent thing -- that is, the
> forums/mailinglist/etc.

Different subject here. Sure, you want to have the meeting minutes and
the decisions from the meeting somewhere to be referred to, be it a
website, a forum, a mailinglist (which feeds into an archive, which is
most times a website again).

But that comes *after* the fact, after the discussion and the decision
has been made.

In your example, everyone not participating in the meeting in TS is cut
off and only gets to read it in the minutes.

There was no live TS-to-IRC/forum transcriber active at the meeting and
nobody that read the IRC channel/forum back to the TS to get the other
people involved directyly.

What I am saying here is that by having multiple channels of
communication you naturally get different groups of people in them which
tend to drift apart sooner or later, because each group isn't
represented in the other media. And then you get the "forum casuals"
against the "mailinglist greybeards" against the "IRC noobs" in the end.

I can see why the GNOME people choose to close all other communication
channels and focus on one and only one: to avoid splintering the
community. 

That by doing so they may have lost some members who absolutely didn't
want to use the new way of communicating and if they anticipated and
went with it anyways I can't say from the outside.

And I am also not saying that the way Debian does it up until now is set
in stone and can't be changed, because "that is the way we have always
done it!" is seldom a good argument.

Just that one should be careful and look at all the angles before making
a decision.

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: appropriate list or forum to use for discussing application development in debian

[tomas]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 01:02:33PM -0700, Dan Hitt wrote:
> I have a question to raise about application development in debian.
> 
> Debian has a lot of development mailing lists, but afaict, they're about
> preparation of or bug reports of different packages.
> 
> That's not the right subject for me, as my question is more about what
> tools to use, which are more stable, and which fit in better with debian.
> 
> But this is not really a user question, more like a programmer-user
> question.

If you're using tools packaged by Debian to write programs... you
are a Debian user. So you'd be right here.

Of course, if what you are developing is a Debian specific program
(say, for example, apt) then there are more specific lists.

The whole list of uh... lists is on https://lists.debian.org/

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[Sven Hartge]

Brad Rogers  wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:50:54 +0200 Sven Hartge  wrote:

>> Yes, but the sender of a message has to actively do that and all
>> others have to follow it. Also you can't retroactively split of a
>> part of a thread into a new one.

> Although not clear from my comment, I am aware that thread splitting
> is easier at discourse (for example).  Thank you for making the point.

To be even more precise (and I know you know this was well, just
spelling it out for the archive): 

Changing the state of a thread (change the subject, split the thread,
lock or delete it) is easier in *any* medium where you control the
central database in contrast to a system which has multiple
decentralized ones (if you call mailbox of each individual recipient a
"database").

>> How this would translate to the mail interface (my guess: it doesn't)
>> is

> I have to agree.

I know MS Exchange has a "recall email" function, which can create
confusion among its users, for example when one instance allows it and
another does not.

Usenet also has Cancel and Supersede control messages, which have in the
past been (ab)used to various degrees, up to the fact that today most
sites don't honor them, whereas some do, but only when used with the
correct Cancel-Key in the header, a mechanism not all clients are able
to use.

In the end: it is a mess.

Grüße,
S!

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 13, 2020, Michael Howard wrote:
> On 13/04/2020 19:18, Sven Hartge wrote:
> > Michael Howard  wrote:
> > > On 13/04/2020 17:49, John Hasler wrote:
> > > > Michael Howard writes:
> > > > > In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have
> > > > > more channels open than just one where possible.
> > > > Not when the channels connect to different pools.
> > > Sorry, which different pools are you refering to?
> > Different pools of people.
> 
> Ah, Us & Them, of course.

Not necessarily.  More like that communication tends to fall apart when
there are multiple methods of communication.

Take this entirely anecdotal situation that happened to us this year:

 - most of the family is on facebook / email, so sent them an electronic
   invitation to a Christmas party

 - one aunt doesnt, so we mailed out a card.

Got told after Thanksgiving that aunt felt left out as people were
talking about it over that holiday (our party is early / mid-december;
well before "office parties" and the like). Called her up, and it turned
out she never got the invitation.


-- 
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Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:19:56 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

Hello John,

>Though described as a mailing list manager Sympa has a full Web
>interface that might satisfy email-phobic millennials.

It's not something I'd heard of.  I'll check it out.  Not that I'm in the
market for setting up an ML, or anything.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Just coz they do it in the movies, doesn't mean to say that it's cool
Keep It Clean - The Vibrators


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appropriate list or forum to use for discussing application development in debian

[Dan Hitt]

I have a question to raise about application development in debian.

Debian has a lot of development mailing lists, but afaict, they're about
preparation of or bug reports of different packages.

That's not the right subject for me, as my question is more about what
tools to use, which are more stable, and which fit in better with debian.

But this is not really a user question, more like a programmer-user
question.

So i'd appreciate any pointers to suitable mailing lists, hosted by debian
or not, or i guess any web forums if that's the right place to go.

Thanks!

dan

Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:50:54 +0200
Sven Hartge  wrote:

Hello Sven,

>Yes, but the sender of a message has to actively do that and all others
>have to follow it. Also you can't retroactively split of a part of a
>thread into a new one.

Although not clear from my comment, I am aware that thread splitting is
easier at discourse (for example).  Thank you for making the point.

>How this would translate to the mail interface (my guess: it doesn't) is

I have to agree.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Kill joy, bad guy, big talking, small fry
Death On Two Legs - Queen


pgpqLv9qNGF2W.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 18:33:13 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

Hello Curt,

>There could be a channel to connect the pools

There have, in the past existed gateways between mailing lists and usenet
newsgroups.  They worked well, for the most part.

Web forums to email rarely works as well, since web forum text editors
allow for all sorts of formatting guff that doesn't translate to email
well, if at all despite how good the translating part of the forum
software is supposed to work (it's always second class).  *Especially*
when reactionaries like me insist on having plain text emails, or at
least emails with a plain text part.

I *never* read the HTML part.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Drums quite good, bass is too loud, and I can't hear the words
Sound Of The Suburbs - Members


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: App Linŭx de cryptage

[Yves Rutschle]

On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 09:15:52AM +0200, Gabriel Moreau wrote:
> > En faisant un tour sur OpenPGP on trouve cette page qui recense quelques 
> > clients mail de cryptage :
> 
> https://chiffrer.info/
 
On notera que le commentaire sur "chiffrage" est faux, ref
l'académie française:
https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9C2007

J'aime à l'employer dans son sens cryptographique pour semer
le trouble chez les managers.

Y.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Felix Miata]

Brian composed on 2020-04-13 20:40 (UTC+0100):

> On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 20:33:59 +0100, Michael Howard wrote:

>> Sven Hartge wrote:

>>> Different pools of people.

>> Ah, Us & Them, of course.

> This is entirely the incorrect way of looking at it. There are different
> groups of people with different needs. They can be served in different
> ways. All the ways are legitimate.

Splintering into multiple pools means a question can be asked in a pool from 
which
no answer will be provided because the needed answer comes but from one source
which lives only in a different pool. The openSUSE mailing lists are like this,
far too much list specialization/too many lists, and too many questions with no
answers.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[John Hasler]

Michael Howard writes:
> Ah, Us & Them, of course.

No not "Us & Them".  Two groups of people such that the members of one
interact mostly with other members of their group and not very much with
members of the other.  This soon leads to "Us & Them" behavior by
members of both groups.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 13, 2020, Curt wrote:
> On 2020-04-13, Sven Hartge  wrote:
> >> Sorry, which different pools are you refering to?
> >
> > Different pools of people.
> 
> There could be a channel to connect the pools. Then people could row
> from one to the other.

Unfortunately, that rarely seems to happen.  People get comfortable in
their little sub-section of the internet, and they don't tend to venture
away from it; often forgetting that there is another group discussing
exactly the same thing(s) in a different venue

-- 
|_|O|_| 
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|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281


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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 20:33:59 +0100, Michael Howard wrote:

> On 13/04/2020 19:18, Sven Hartge wrote:
>
> > Different pools of people.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Ah, Us & Them, of course.

This is entirely the incorrect way of looking at it. There are different
groups of people with different needs. They can be served in different
ways. All the ways are legitimate.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Michael Howard]

On 13/04/2020 19:18, Sven Hartge wrote:

Michael Howard  wrote:

On 13/04/2020 17:49, John Hasler wrote:

Michael Howard writes:

In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have
more channels open than just one where possible.

Not when the channels connect to different pools.

Sorry, which different pools are you refering to?

Different pools of people.




Ah, Us & Them, of course.

--
Michael Howard

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 13, 2020, Sven Hartge wrote:
> Nate Bargmann  wrote:
> 
> [...]
> And I've also witnissed this in other contexts, be it in an Enterprise
> setup (where one group flocks to Confluence and the other stay in the
> mailinglist) or a MMO guild, where one group prefers to converse in
> Teamspeak and the other uses the forum.

forum-only people are filthy casuals and should be shown the door :)

> 
> In all cases it lead to rifts and problems down the line.
> 
> As hard as it is, one should commit to *one* communications channel and
> only one, as to not create parallel "societies".

In the groups I've been in, it was always that a formal discussion (e.g.
a quarterly state-of-the group / planning session), if held on
teamspeak,  was recapped on the most permanent thing -- that is, the
forums/mailinglist/etc.

-- 
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Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Dan Ritter]

Sven Hartge wrote: 
> Curt  wrote:
> > On 2020-04-13, Sven Hartge  wrote:
> >> Michael Howard  wrote:
> >>> On 13/04/2020 17:49, John Hasler wrote:
>  Michael Howard writes:
> 
> > There could be a channel to connect the pools. Then people could row
> > from one to the other.
> 
> Sure. 
> 
> But to make that as painless as possible you'd need to do quite the feat
> on the technical side, creating an interface between the web-focused
> frontend and the mail-based frontend, that works without getting in the
> way.
> 
> All attempts to do so I know of in the end just created a mongrel that
> was the worst of both worlds, satisfying nobody.
> 
> So please excuse me if I sound a bit overly pessimistic on that front,
> looking back at ~30 years of online communications in a range of media.


Have you seen DFeed?
https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed
GNU AGPL3.0

-dsr-

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 10:13:33 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Du, 12 apr 20, 10:55:48, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > 
> > I've been hearing/reading this old saw about "less technical users" for
> > well over two decades, and not just in Linux land but amateur radio as
> > well, and it really touches a nerve of mine.  How are less technical
> > users ever going to progress into more technical users unless they have
> > the opportunity to break something and thus learn?  Striving to make
> > *everything* at beginner level 0.1 just retards growth.  That said, I do
> > use Gnome.  ;-)
> 
> And I thought the point of debian-user was to provide support :)

It is and it does. The well-meaning idea to integrate its functions
into something it was never intended for is misplaced. That's all
apart from the many years of culture and co-operation which are
woven into -users fabric.

If the proposer and supporters of the idea that debian-user would be
be better off in Discourse were prepared to engage here, we might have
a better understanding of the intention. I fear such engagement will
be conspicuous by its absence.

A similar, less constrictive, idea has been tried before

  http://shapado.debian.net/

and has failed miserably.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Curt  wrote:
> On 2020-04-13, Sven Hartge  wrote:
>> Michael Howard  wrote:
>>> On 13/04/2020 17:49, John Hasler wrote:
 Michael Howard writes:

> In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have
> more channels open than just one where possible.
 Not when the channels connect to different pools.
>>> Sorry, which different pools are you refering to?
>> Different pools of people.

> There could be a channel to connect the pools. Then people could row
> from one to the other.

Sure. 

But to make that as painless as possible you'd need to do quite the feat
on the technical side, creating an interface between the web-focused
frontend and the mail-based frontend, that works without getting in the
way.

All attempts to do so I know of in the end just created a mongrel that
was the worst of both worlds, satisfying nobody.

So please excuse me if I sound a bit overly pessimistic on that front,
looking back at ~30 years of online communications in a range of media.

S!
-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: HTML mail + PDF attachments

[Russell L. Harris]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:01:47PM -0500, Jason wrote:


As another option, both getmail and thunderbird can be configured to
leave messages on the server and then delete them a certain number of
days after retrieval. Using that feature in getmail, you could access
the same messages in thunderbird, and tell thunderbird to not delete
messages.


Thanks for jogging my memory.  It has been so long since I configured
getmail that I forgot that getmail can serve unrelated accounts and
deliver to multiple locations, each with its own structure (mbox or
maildir).

I suppose I need to reduce the limit of the number of messages
downloaded in a sesson, so as to enable more frequent checks for
incoming messages.  At present getmail runs every three minutes.
But I do not have a feel for the load imposed on a mail server by
frequent checks.  Would an ISP frown on a check every minute?



As for PDF attachments, I use getmail to deliver to maildrop, which
then runs a copy of the email through ripmime to automatically save
the attachments to a directory.


And I keep forgetting about maildrop, which I have used in the past.

RLH

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Curt]

On 2020-04-13, Sven Hartge  wrote:
> Michael Howard  wrote:
>> On 13/04/2020 17:49, John Hasler wrote:
>>> Michael Howard writes:
>
 In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have
 more channels open than just one where possible.
>
>>> Not when the channels connect to different pools.
>
>> Sorry, which different pools are you refering to?
>
> Different pools of people.

There could be a channel to connect the pools. Then people could row
from one to the other.

> Grüße,
> Sven.
>


-- 

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 19:13:11 +0100, Michael Howard wrote:

> On 13/04/2020 18:09, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 19:41:15 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > 
> > >   Hi.
> > > 
> > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 07:32:56AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > > > I doubt that Russ reads this list and may not be aware of the
> > > > experiences of us that have dealt with a project that wholesale replaced
> > > > working mailing lists with Discourse.  Russ should be made aware that
> > > > Discourse is not some magic software that does not require any learning.
> > > That's I agree with.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On the contrary, it is different and requires a modern Web browser (how
> > > > does the non-GUI user participate since it is noted that an email user
> > > > is a distant second-class user?) but as he notes it is a centralized
> > > > database that facilitates an amount of control that is lacking with
> > > > email lists.  I think that the key to the discussion is that some people
> > > > seek greater control over discussions.
> > > Moreover, it brings two interesting aspects of the problem:
> > > 
> > > 1) By its design the Discourse relies on Javascript executing in user's
> > > browser. While Discourse itself may be the free software, such usage of
> > > Discourse violates Software Freedom 1 ("change it so it does your
> > > computing as you wish").
> > I understand the concern with Javascript. I have read what there is of
> > Discourse using Lynx. Am I missing out an anything?
> > 
> Can you provide some of the links you used?

I merely used

  lynx https://discourse.debian.net/t/welcome-to-discourse/7

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Michael Howard  wrote:
> On 13/04/2020 17:49, John Hasler wrote:
>> Michael Howard writes:

>>> In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have
>>> more channels open than just one where possible.

>> Not when the channels connect to different pools.

> Sorry, which different pools are you refering to?

Different pools of people.

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Michael Howard]

On 13/04/2020 18:09, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 19:41:15 +0300, Reco wrote:


Hi.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 07:32:56AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:

I doubt that Russ reads this list and may not be aware of the
experiences of us that have dealt with a project that wholesale replaced
working mailing lists with Discourse.  Russ should be made aware that
Discourse is not some magic software that does not require any learning.

That's I agree with.



On the contrary, it is different and requires a modern Web browser (how
does the non-GUI user participate since it is noted that an email user
is a distant second-class user?) but as he notes it is a centralized
database that facilitates an amount of control that is lacking with
email lists.  I think that the key to the discussion is that some people
seek greater control over discussions.

Moreover, it brings two interesting aspects of the problem:

1) By its design the Discourse relies on Javascript executing in user's
browser. While Discourse itself may be the free software, such usage of
Discourse violates Software Freedom 1 ("change it so it does your
computing as you wish").

I understand the concern with Javascript. I have read what there is of
Discourse using Lynx. Am I missing out an anything?


Can you provide some of the links you used?

--
Michael Howard

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Michael Howard]

On 13/04/2020 17:49, John Hasler wrote:

Michael Howard writes:

In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have more
channels open than just one where possible.

Not when the channels connect to different pools.


Sorry, which different pools are you refering to?

--
Michael Howard

Re: Improving performance: RAM or CPU speed

[deloptes]

John Hasler wrote:

> That's probably it.  Mozilla probably only want to support automatic
> profile import one version back.

I think to recall there was a statement that since version xxx it is default
to create a new profile. There is no restriction to one version back.

Re: HTML mail + PDF attachments

[Jason]

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 08:53:35AM +, Russell L. Harris composed:

> All things considered, I am thinking that the best solution is to set
> up a POP account on another domain and configure Thunderbird to fetch
> mail from that location.  Then all I need to do in mutt is to forward
> troublesome messages to that account.
> 

As another option, both getmail and thunderbird can be configured to 
leave messages on the server and then delete them a certain number of 
days after retrieval. Using that feature in getmail, you could access 
the same messages in thunderbird, and tell thunderbird to not delete 
messages.

As for PDF attachments, I use getmail to deliver to maildrop, which then 
runs a copy of the email through ripmime to automatically save the 
attachments to a directory.

-- 
Jason

Re: Jitsi sur serveur debian/testing

[NoSpam]

Le 13/04/2020 à 18:03, BERTRAND Joël a écrit :

NoSpam a écrit :

Rappelle toi que jitsi utilise le port 443 pour le proxy. Si ton apache
écoute également sur ce port ... Chez moi nginx écoute le 6443 (MV dont
le port 443 de l'extérieur est forwardé sur ce port) et fait proxy_pass
vers le  pour jitsi qui utilise également le 80, le 443 pour *son*
proxy_pass et le 4445 pour turn

Je fais le proxy_pass sur le 6443 car j'ai d'autres MV qui utilisent
également le 443, celle ci est en front.

Je pense qu'il y a quelque chose que je ne saisis pas bien dans le
fonctionnement de jitsi. Je viens de lire et relire la doc et ce n'est
pas franchement plus clair.

À quoi sert le proxy et de quels flux s'occupe-t-il (et sur quels 
ports) ?

De ce que j'ai compris :
- le 80 externe est redirigé sur le 443
- le 443 répond en https (jitsi-meet)
- le proxy qui s'occupe du videobridge.

La question qui se pose est donc la suivante : en supposant qu'on ne
puisse pas rediriger le port 443 externe sur autre chose, comment
organiser l'ensemble des ports pour que ça fonctionne ?


Ce que je ferai: une règle PREROUTING qui redirige le 443 sur un port X 
sur lequel écoute ton apache en plus des ports nécessaires pour jitsi. 
Ensuite tu rediriges ton traffic via apache en proxy_pass vers jitsi 
port , Extrait de la config jitsi nginx:


# this is jitsi-meet nginx module configuration
# this forward all http traffic to the nginx virtual host port
# and the rest to the turn server

Donc le port 443 jitsi renvoi sur 127.0.0.1: (web) et 127.0.0.1:4445 
(turn)


Ma config court-circuite le 443 de jitsi en écoutant sur 6443 et renvoi 
directement sur  n'ayant pas besoin du serveur turn (pas de LAN 
derrière)


--

Daniel

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Reco]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 06:09:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > On the contrary, it is different and requires a modern Web browser (how
> > > does the non-GUI user participate since it is noted that an email user
> > > is a distant second-class user?) but as he notes it is a centralized
> > > database that facilitates an amount of control that is lacking with
> > > email lists.  I think that the key to the discussion is that some people
> > > seek greater control over discussions.
> > 
> > Moreover, it brings two interesting aspects of the problem:
> > 
> > 1) By its design the Discourse relies on Javascript executing in user's
> > browser. While Discourse itself may be the free software, such usage of
> > Discourse violates Software Freedom 1 ("change it so it does your
> > computing as you wish").
> 
> I understand the concern with Javascript. I have read what there is of
> Discourse using Lynx. Am I missing out an anything?

Wow. Just wow. Thank you for the idea.
I confirm that it's enough to use any text-based browser (be it lynx,
links or w3m) to read, say, discourse.mozilla.org.
Cannot comment if it's possible to participate there with these fine
browsers (the answers is probably "no"), but it's a start.

Reco

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

John Hasler  wrote:
> Michael Howard writes:

>> In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have more
>> channels open than just one where possible.

> Not when the channels connect to different pools.

Exactly my point.

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 19:41:15 +0300, Reco wrote:

>   Hi.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 07:32:56AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > I doubt that Russ reads this list and may not be aware of the
> > experiences of us that have dealt with a project that wholesale replaced
> > working mailing lists with Discourse.  Russ should be made aware that
> > Discourse is not some magic software that does not require any learning.
> 
> That's I agree with.
> 
> 
> > On the contrary, it is different and requires a modern Web browser (how
> > does the non-GUI user participate since it is noted that an email user
> > is a distant second-class user?) but as he notes it is a centralized
> > database that facilitates an amount of control that is lacking with
> > email lists.  I think that the key to the discussion is that some people
> > seek greater control over discussions.
> 
> Moreover, it brings two interesting aspects of the problem:
> 
> 1) By its design the Discourse relies on Javascript executing in user's
> browser. While Discourse itself may be the free software, such usage of
> Discourse violates Software Freedom 1 ("change it so it does your
> computing as you wish").

I understand the concern with Javascript. I have read what there is of
Discourse using Lynx. Am I missing out an anything?

-- 
Brian.

Re: Improving performance: RAM or CPU speed

[John Hasler]

I wrote:
> How often do you upgrade?  I often go for months without doing so:
> that may be why it happens to me.

Celejar writes:
> I usually upgrade as soon as a new version is available

That's probably it.  Mozilla probably only want to support automatic
profile import one version back.

I still don't see why the dialog can't offer the choice of importing
some or all of my old profiles right up front.  Surely that's what most
people (even Windows users) want.  However, I'm too lazy to send in a
patch...
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Unstable ==> Testing ==> Stable

[Sven Hartge]

John Hasler  wrote:
> Sven writes:

>> It is of note that "experimental" in itself is not a complete set of
>> packages like "unstable" is, it is intended as an addon to "unstable"
>> and has to be used in conjunction with it.

> It is also of note that Unstable is unstable in that it is constantly
> changing, not that it is full of buggy packages.  One of the ways in
> which it can be unstable is that new versions of packages can be
> uploaded to it with out regard to the presence or absence of
> dependencies. 

The latter part is mitigated a bit when source-only uploads are used, as
those greatly reduce the impact of an unclean build-environment on the
DDs side.

But during library transitions "unstable" gets hit with this with the
full force, doing "apt dist-upgrade" blindly will see you remove the
major parts of your system quite easily.

You have to use your brain a bit when using "unstable".

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: X framebuffer problem on AMD Picasso

[Klaus Jantzen]

On 4/12/20 2:47 AM, Paul Scott wrote:

Hi,

I haven't posted for a long time!

I just successfully did my first UEFI installation.

It's a new AMD machine with.  X is failing to start.  I have solved a 
number of related problems within online information including finding 
the firmware-amd-graphics package.  I can't easily post log contents 
from that machine since it doesn't have email installed yet.


I am now at:

open /dev/dri/card0: no such file...

What I find online refers to the firmware problems I think I have solved.

TIA for any ideas,

Paul





Paul,

I tried for weeks to solve this problem with my new AMD Ryzen 5 3400G.
As I did not want to play around with "testing" etc. I lastly solved the 
problem by buying a Nvidia graphic card: installed in my machine, 
reinstalled Debian 10 (the fourth or fifth time), and after installing 
the required firmware via synaptic I don not any graphic problem anymore.


--
K.D.J

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[John Hasler]

Michael Howard writes:
> In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have more
> channels open than just one where possible.

Not when the channels connect to different pools.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[John Hasler]

Nate writes:
> And I've also witnissed this in other contexts, be it in an Enterprise
> setup (where one group flocks to Confluence and the other stay in the
> mailinglist) or a MMO guild, where one group prefers to converse in
> Teamspeak and the other uses the forum.

So have I.  It creates two communities that overlap only slightly.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Unstable ==> Testing ==> Stable

[John Hasler]

Sven writes:
> It is of note that "experimental" in itself is not a complete set of
> packages like "unstable" is, it is intended as an addon to "unstable"
> and has to be used in conjunction with it.

It is also of note that Unstable is unstable in that it is constantly
changing, not that it is full of buggy packages.  One of the ways in
which it can be unstable is that new versions of packages can be
uploaded to it with out regard to the presence or absence of
dependencies. 
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Reco]

Hi.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 07:32:56AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> I doubt that Russ reads this list and may not be aware of the
> experiences of us that have dealt with a project that wholesale replaced
> working mailing lists with Discourse.  Russ should be made aware that
> Discourse is not some magic software that does not require any learning.

That's I agree with.


> On the contrary, it is different and requires a modern Web browser (how
> does the non-GUI user participate since it is noted that an email user
> is a distant second-class user?) but as he notes it is a centralized
> database that facilitates an amount of control that is lacking with
> email lists.  I think that the key to the discussion is that some people
> seek greater control over discussions.

Moreover, it brings two interesting aspects of the problem:

1) By its design the Discourse relies on Javascript executing in user's
browser. While Discourse itself may be the free software, such usage of
Discourse violates Software Freedom 1 ("change it so it does your
computing as you wish").

2) Centralization vs federation.
By its very design e-mail is de-centralized, and it allowed it to
successfully function for about 40 years.
Moreover, such decentralization actually empowers the end user (i.e. all
of us), because "your MTA - your rules".

But Discourse is centralized, and while I trust Debian project to make
the OS that I use daily (and strongly prefer to others), this move
strips end users of that limited power that they have here, at
debian-user.


> If the project wants to implement Discourse as an adjunct to existing
> communications channels, fine, I've no problem with that.

I don't feel easy while reminding it (), but Debian project has its
share of proposing alternatives (GNOME vs XFCE, systemd vs upstart vs
sysvinit for instance), which somehow ended with the majority of the
users using only one alternative.

And note that there were totally objective reasons for that, and users
were left with the final choice. Just like this time.

Reco

Re: Lancer une appli graphique en ssh

[Fabien R]

On 13/04/2020 15:12, ajh-valmer wrote:
> Bonjour,
> 
> Je tente de lancer une appli graphique depuis chez moi (client)
> depuis un serveur distant :
> 
> ssh root@ -X xclock
> "X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.
> Error: Can't open display: localhost:10.0"
> 
Je suppose que to serveur ssh accepte le login root.
> J'ai vainement cherché, rien ne fonctionne, c'est désespérant,
> dont de lancer sur mon serveur distant xhost +
Je n'utilise pas xhost mais xauth.
Jette un oeil dans le man sur l'exemple pour l'utiliser en ssh.

--
Fabien

Re: Improving performance: RAM or CPU speed

[Celejar]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:43:29 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Celejar writes:
> > I seem to have memory leaks with recent Firefox (currently 74.0.1-1
> > from Sid) - memory use goes slowly but steadily up, and eventually
> > gets maxed out and the system grinds to a halt. It takes a while for
> > this to happen, but I find myself eventually needing to kill and
> > restart Firefox.
> 
> I see this too sometimes.  Top tells me which "Web Content" process is
> gobbling memory: killing it solves the problem (and closes the offending
> tab).
> 
> I wrote:
> > irritation of being required to create a new profile every time I
> > upgrade Firefox).
> 
> > Interesting - apparently some people get this, but some don't (I
> > update regularly from the Sid repos, and I don't generally see this).
> 
> How often do you upgrade?  I often go for months without doing so: that
> may be why it happens to me.

I usually upgrade as soon as a new version is available (despite your
oft-reiterated suggestion that this sort of thing is really
unnecessary ;))

Celejar

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Michael Howard]

On 13/04/2020 17:04, Sven Hartge wrote:

Nate Bargmann  wrote:


If the project wants to implement Discourse as an adjunct to existing
communications channels, fine, I've no problem with that.  If,
however, the goal is arbitrary and wholesale replacement of all lists
with the jumbled mess that is my experience of Discourse, then I
object.

I see a problem with "another communication" channel here, creating a
rift between the two user bases.

As Russ noted in
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00103.html in 3)
"There is some age correlation with the type of communication mechanism
one is comfortable with, and reason to believe that younger people
skew towards being more comfortable with forums than with email. [...]"
I fear what will happen is that the younger and possibly more
inexperienced crowd will aggregate in the web-based media, while the
more-knowledgable "grey beards" will stay in their mailling lists.

We already have this with http://forums.debian.net/ and in part
https://reddit.com/r/debian where there sometimes exist a "the helpless being
led by the clueless" situation.

And I've also witnissed this in other contexts, be it in an Enterprise
setup (where one group flocks to Confluence and the other stay in the
mailinglist) or a MMO guild, where one group prefers to converse in
Teamspeak and the other uses the forum.

In all cases it lead to rifts and problems down the line.

As hard as it is, one should commit to *one* communications channel and
only one, as to not create parallel "societies".

In your opinion. Total rubbish in my opinion. Far better to have more 
channels open than just one where possible.


--
Michael Howard

Re: Lancer une appli graphique en ssh

[ajh-valmer]

On Monday 13 April 2020 17:36:52 Pierre Malard wrote:
> Vous pouvez toujours essayer un :
> ssh -Y @ 
> Personnellement je me suis bricolé une fonction dans le « bashrc »
> qui me lance un « xhost + >/dev/null » pour forcer l’autorisation
> du forwarding W11 dès que je repère le lancement d’un « ssh -X »
> ou « ssh -Y ».
> le « forwarding IP », tout con non ? Du coup, que vous ayez lancé
> un serveur X11 sur votre PC ou non, il refuse l’affichage de la
> fenêtre X11 venant d’ailleurs le bougre ! Et vous avez une gentille
> phrase comme :
> root@:~# gparted
> Unit -.mount does not exist, proceeding anyway.
> Invalid MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 key
> (gpartedbin:7370): Gtk-WARNING **: 17:00:09.843: cannot 
> open display: :10.0 à chaque tentative.
> Finalement, j’ai trouvé la solution dans un post sur StackOverFlow,
> voici ce qu’il faut faire :
>  lancer un serveur X11 sur son PC si ce n’est pas déjà
>  le cas
> lancer la commande « xhost + » sur son PC avant de
> faire le SSH -X ou -Y
> C’est tout con, le XHost avec un « + » autorise simplement
> l’affichage de toute fenêtre venant de l’extérieur…
> Essayez… :

X11 = Xorg (mode graphique ?)
Lancer un serveur X11 sur le serveur ou sur le client ?
Sur le client = je suis en mode graphique (Nvidia).
Sur le serveur, Xorg ou X11 installé mais j'arrive pas à le lancer.

Sur le client, 
xhost + : 
unable to open display "192.168.0.24:0"

Rien à faire... Serait-ce le display xhost du client ?

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Sven Hartge]

Nate Bargmann  wrote:

> If the project wants to implement Discourse as an adjunct to existing
> communications channels, fine, I've no problem with that.  If,
> however, the goal is arbitrary and wholesale replacement of all lists
> with the jumbled mess that is my experience of Discourse, then I
> object.

I see a problem with "another communication" channel here, creating a
rift between the two user bases.

As Russ noted in
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00103.html in 3)
"There is some age correlation with the type of communication mechanism
one is comfortable with, and reason to believe that younger people
skew towards being more comfortable with forums than with email. [...]"
I fear what will happen is that the younger and possibly more
inexperienced crowd will aggregate in the web-based media, while the
more-knowledgable "grey beards" will stay in their mailling lists.

We already have this with http://forums.debian.net/ and in part
https://reddit.com/r/debian where there sometimes exist a "the helpless being
led by the clueless" situation.

And I've also witnissed this in other contexts, be it in an Enterprise
setup (where one group flocks to Confluence and the other stay in the
mailinglist) or a MMO guild, where one group prefers to converse in
Teamspeak and the other uses the forum.

In all cases it lead to rifts and problems down the line.

As hard as it is, one should commit to *one* communications channel and
only one, as to not create parallel "societies".

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Jitsi sur serveur debian/testing

[BERTRAND Joël]

NoSpam a écrit :
> Rappelle toi que jitsi utilise le port 443 pour le proxy. Si ton apache
> écoute également sur ce port ... Chez moi nginx écoute le 6443 (MV dont
> le port 443 de l'extérieur est forwardé sur ce port) et fait proxy_pass
> vers le  pour jitsi qui utilise également le 80, le 443 pour *son*
> proxy_pass et le 4445 pour turn
> 
> Je fais le proxy_pass sur le 6443 car j'ai d'autres MV qui utilisent
> également le 443, celle ci est en front.

Je pense qu'il y a quelque chose que je ne saisis pas bien dans le
fonctionnement de jitsi. Je viens de lire et relire la doc et ce n'est
pas franchement plus clair.

À quoi sert le proxy et de quels flux s'occupe-t-il (et sur quels 
ports) ?

De ce que j'ai compris :
- le 80 externe est redirigé sur le 443
- le 443 répond en https (jitsi-meet)
- le proxy qui s'occupe du videobridge.

La question qui se pose est donc la suivante : en supposant qu'on ne
puisse pas rediriger le port 443 externe sur autre chose, comment
organiser l'ensemble des ports pour que ça fonctionne ?

JKB

Re: where should broken links in debian.org be reported to?

[Dan Hitt]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 8:40 AM  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 08:28:41AM -0700, Dan Hitt wrote:
> > I was browsing and searching around in debian.org and i found a broken
> link.
> >
> > Since debian.org is such a gigantic site, i imagine this must happen all
> > the time.
> >
> > So, how and where do i report this?
>
> It's right there, at the foot of https://www.debian.org/ [1]
>
> "To report a problem with the web site, please e-mail our
>  publicly archived mailing list debian-...@lists.debian.org
>  in English."
>
>
Thanks Tomas!

I sent off the mail about the broken links.


> Cheers
>
> [1] I'm not saying this to appear smartass, much less to shame
>someone -- rather to account for the way I found it, perhaps
>helping others do the same :-)
>

Hahahahhahahahahaha, i'd be far too dense to take it that way!! :)

And i guess it's probably a good idea when you visit any web page that has
a broken link, to go to the top of the tree and see if there's some clue
there.

dan




>
> -- tomás
>

Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[Sven Hartge]

Brad Rogers  wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:05:05 +0200  wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 09:56:24AM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

>>> You can close threads, so no further messages can be added (stops
>>> hi-jacking, drift, etc.)  

>> I don't see why mailing list software (technically) can't offer this
>> too. But I won't further belabour that point.

> I'm sure it can.  Thread splitting is easy enough, with an MUA that
> allows you to do it, but at the archive end, IDK.

Yes, but the sender of a message has to actively do that and all others
have to follow it. Also you can't retroactively split of a part of a
thread into a new one.

With a web-forum the admin/moderator can split the thread, even after
the fact and everybody is forced to follow.

How this would translate to the mail interface (my guess: it doesn't) is
another question.

Grüße,
Sven 
(who in the past had the "fun" of integrating a Mailman list into a
phpBB3 forum)

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian/Sid sur "gros" ordinateur de bureau - plantage économiseur d'écran donc comment vidanger sur disque SSD

[Jean-Michel OLTRA]

Bonjour,


Le lundi 13 avril 2020, BERTRAND Joël a écrit...


>   Je rebondis un peu sur le sujet, désolé de me greffer dans la
> discussion. J'ai parcouru un peu les archives internet et je n'arrive
> pas à avoir une idée claire. J'envisage de changer ma machine de bureau
> justement pour un Ryzen 7 ou 9, mais sans GPU intégré (il me faut une
> carte graphique de 2 ou 4 Go pour travailler sereinement). Est-ce que ce
> bug se limite aux CPU avec GPU intégré (utilisés ou non) ou à tous les
> Ryzen ?

Il y a un sujet fleuve sur kernel.org
https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196683
Il y a un moment que je ne l'ai pas parcouru.

De mémoire, certains on fait pas mal de tests avec de CM et des cartes
graphiques différentes, mais les résultats n'étaient pas probants.  J'ai une
MSI B350M. Il me semble que la version du bios de l'époque (il y a 1 an et
demi) était plus ou moins en cause.  Quant aux Ryzen, je pense que les 7
sont également touchés. Les 9, je ne sais pas. En CM, j'éviterais MSI avec
les Ryzen. Le script zenstates.py fait bien le job en désactivant l'état c6
du processeur, je ne suis plus ennuyé avec ça depuis que systemd l'active au
boot.

-- 
jm

Re: Improving performance: RAM or CPU speed

[John Hasler]

Celejar writes:
> I seem to have memory leaks with recent Firefox (currently 74.0.1-1
> from Sid) - memory use goes slowly but steadily up, and eventually
> gets maxed out and the system grinds to a halt. It takes a while for
> this to happen, but I find myself eventually needing to kill and
> restart Firefox.

I see this too sometimes.  Top tells me which "Web Content" process is
gobbling memory: killing it solves the problem (and closes the offending
tab).

I wrote:
> irritation of being required to create a new profile every time I
> upgrade Firefox).

> Interesting - apparently some people get this, but some don't (I
> update regularly from the Sid repos, and I don't generally see this).

How often do you upgrade?  I often go for months without doing so: that
may be why it happens to me.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: where should broken links in debian.org be reported to?

[tomas]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 08:28:41AM -0700, Dan Hitt wrote:
> I was browsing and searching around in debian.org and i found a broken link.
> 
> Since debian.org is such a gigantic site, i imagine this must happen all
> the time.
> 
> So, how and where do i report this?

It's right there, at the foot of https://www.debian.org/ [1]

"To report a problem with the web site, please e-mail our
 publicly archived mailing list debian-...@lists.debian.org
 in English."

Cheers

[1] I'm not saying this to appear smartass, much less to shame
   someone -- rather to account for the way I found it, perhaps
   helping others do the same :-)

-- tomás


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Lancer une appli graphique en ssh

[Pierre Malard]

Bonjour,

Vous pouvez toujours essayer un :
ssh -Y @ 
Personnellement je me suis bricolé une fonction dans le « bashrc »
qui me lance un « xhost + >/dev/null » pour forcer l’autorisation
du forwarding W11 dès que je repère le lancement d’un « ssh -X »
ou « ssh -Y ».

J’ai déjà eu ce genre de comportements entre Ubuntu et Debian.
En fouillant dans mes archives, j’ai trouvé ceci :

En fait cela tient au fait que le poste local (votre PC) interdise
le « forwardigng IP », tout con non ? Du coup, que vous ayez lancé
un serveur X11 sur votre PC ou non, il refuse l’affichage de la
fenêtre X11 venant d’ailleurs le bougre ! Et vous avez une gentille
phrase comme :
root@:~# gparted
Unit -.mount does not exist, proceeding anyway.
Invalid MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 key
(gpartedbin:7370): Gtk-WARNING **: 17:00:09.843: cannot open display: 
:10.0
à chaque tentative.

Finalement, j’ai trouvé la solution dans un post sur StackOverFlow,
voici ce qu’il faut faire :
• lancer un serveur X11 sur son PC si ce n’est pas déjà
  le cas
• lancer la commande « xhost + » sur son PC avant de
  faire le SSH -X ou -Y
C’est tout con, le XHost avec un « + » autorise simplement
l’affichage de toute fenêtre venant de l’extérieur…

Essayez…

Source 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14174188/invalid-magic-cookie-when-connecting-in-mac

> Le 13 avr. 2020 à 15:12, ajh-valmer  a écrit :
> 
> Bonjour,
> 
> Je tente de lancer une appli graphique depuis chez moi (client)
> depuis un serveur distant :
> 
> ssh root@ -X xclock
> "X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.
> Error: Can't open display: localhost:10.0"
> 
> J'ai vainement cherché, rien ne fonctionne, c'est désespérant,
> dont de lancer sur mon serveur distant xhost +
> 
> Merci d'une piste, d'un tuto explicatif précis...
> 
> Bon confinement.
> 

--
πr

  « Il n'y a pas de Paradis, mais il faut tâcher de mériter qu'il y en ait un ! 
»
Jules Renard (1864-1910) - Journal, 10 septembre 
1903
  |\  _,,,---,,_
  /,`.-'`'-.  ;-;;,_
 |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
'---''(_/--'  `-'\_)   πr

perl -e '$_=q#: 3|\ 5_,3-3,2_: 3/,`.'"'"'`'"'"' 5-.  ;-;;,_:  |,A-  ) )-,_. ,\ 
(  `'"'"'-'"'"': '"'"'-3'"'"'2(_/--'"'"'  `-'"'"'\_): 
24πr::#;y#:#\n#;s#(\D)(\d+)#$1x$2#ge;print'
- --> Ce message n’engage que son auteur <--



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DOH

[John Hasler]

Liam writes:
> I'm not familiar with bind. Does it work by consulting root name
> servers directly?

It starts with the root servers and builds a database in exactly the
same way your ISP's DNS server does.  In fact, it is probably what your
ISP uses.  
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Lancer une appli graphique en ssh

[ajh-valmer]

On Monday 13 April 2020 16:05:30 hamster wrote:
> Le 13/04/2020 à 15:12, ajh-valmer a écrit :
> > Je tente de lancer une appli graphique depuis chez moi (client)
> > depuis un serveur distant :
> > ssh root@ -X xclock
> > "X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.
> > Error: Can't open display: localhost:10.0"
> > J'ai vainement cherché, rien ne fonctionne, c'est désespérant,
> > dont de lancer sur mon serveur distant xhost +

> D'habitude je met l'option avant le login@ip, mais je sais pas si ca a
> une importance :

Idem.

> Le transfert de la connexion X est dangereux parce que ca permet de
> faire du keylogging. Cette option est donc fréquamment désactivée dans
> la configuration du serveur X. Si c'est le cas sur la machine a laquelle
> tu essaye de te connecter, c'est normal que ca coince. Tu peux essayer
> avec l'option -Y a la place de -X. Je te laisse aller voir dans le man
> ssh quelle est la différence :

-X ou -Y ou -A : idem

ssh root@ -X gparted
marchait très bien avant et ça me rendrait tellement service.

Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[John Hasler]

Dan writes:
> Thank Cthulhu I'm not email-phobic :)

> I imagine few others who "really want to help out" are either; just
> that they have to be guided.

I think that many of those who Neil McGovern is concerned about are.
It's very common.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

where should broken links in debian.org be reported to?

[Dan Hitt]

I was browsing and searching around in debian.org and i found a broken link.

Since debian.org is such a gigantic site, i imagine this must happen all
the time.

So, how and where do i report this?

I would like to follow whatever the established, standard procedure is.

Thanks in advance for any info!

dan

Re: DOH

[John Hasler]

Andrei writes:
> Whether DoH or DNS-over-TLS, you have to trust the DNS server.

You have to trust the root zone but you needn't trust any single server
other than your own with every single query.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Unstable ==> Testing ==> Stable

[Sven Hartge]

Kushal Kumaran  wrote:

> There is an experimental "distribution" that is for trying all kinds of
> new and weird things.

It is of note that "experimental" in itself is not a complete set of
packages like "unstable" is, it is intended as an addon to "unstable"
and has to be used in conjunction with it.

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: DOH

[John Hasler]

tomás writes:
> But letting an app bypass that, to some Mozilla-blessed DOH service is
> *not nice*.

I assume that Mozilla is only considering Windows users who are going to
use whatever DNS their ISP configured into their router.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Unstable ==> Testing ==> Stable

[Kushal Kumaran]

rhkra...@gmail.com writes:

> Aside: for my own self respect, I want to make some sort of disclaimer here 
> (with maybe several points):  I'm sure that sometimes I post things that do 
> any of (1) make other people cringe (for one reason or another), (2) make me 
> look uninformed (or worse), and (3) other causes for embarrassment (to myself 
> of others).
>
> I finally realized that the "normal" progression / hierarchy of the Debian 
> releases is from Unstable to Testing to Stable.
>
> I never looked it up -- I assume that, like most people, we don't look up 
> everything but make assumptions based on past experience.  I expected that 
> the 
> normal progression for Debian releases would be from Testing (trying all / 
> any 
> kind of new, possibly weird things), to Unstable (concentrating on things 
> that 
> survived some initial testing and now maybe being released to a select group 
> for some real pounding en route to Stable.
>

There is an experimental "distribution" that is for trying all kinds of
new and weird things.

> (I've never used anything other than stable releases, so my misunderstanding 
> hasn't had any real world effect on my systems, but I have been confused at 
> times, and suspect that maybe one other person out there may have similarly 
> been confused.)

You might find
https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.release-lifecycle.html
informative.

-- 
regards,
kushal

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Liam O'Toole]

On Mon, 13 Apr, 2020 at 16:19:55 +0300, Reco wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:14:44PM +0100, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Apr, 2020 at 12:57:54 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > >   Hi.
> > > 
> > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 11:16:02AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > > Whether DoH or DNS-over-TLS, you have to trust the DNS server.
> > > 
> > > Yup. That's why I have my own, and every Debian user can have their own
> > > too, using only free software.
> > > 
> > 
> > Pray tell us more. I use dnsmasq for clients on my LAN, but even that
> > has to use an upstream name server --- in my case the one provided by my
> > ISP.
> 
> 1) Rent yourself a VPS, install bind there (there's no DNS but bind).
> Replace bind with unbound if you need caching-only nameserver
> (caching-only bind is possible, but it's an overkill).
> 
> 2) Apply [1] to your dnsmasq.
> 
> 3) Your ISP gets a TLS tunneled DNS request (and they can't do anything
> about it), you get unmolested name resolution.
> 

[...]

Thanks for the detailed information.

I'm not familiar with bind. Does it work by consulting root name servers
directly?

Re: Debian is testing Discourse

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Apr 2020 at 07:32:56 -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:

> If the project wants to implement Discourse as an adjunct to existing
> communications channels, fine, I've no problem with that.

Me neither. While preferring email, I am comfortable with web-style
interfaces for some of the user support I indulge in.

>If, however,
> the goal is arbitrary and wholesale replacement of all lists with the
> jumbled mess that is my experience of Discourse, then I object.

I do not know about "arbitrary", but a reason for -user being "...better
off in Discourse". has not yet been advanced. Anyway, there will be an
evaluation period in which we can see whether newcomers abandon -user and
flock to Discourse without having their arms twisted up their backs. :)

Making communication with newcomers more accessible and taking advantage
of more featureful tooling has been tried before, but without sidelining
-user. Coincidentally, the prime mover was also a DPL. See

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2010/09/msg00123.html

My recollection is that the initiative never really attracted sufficient
support. The site has since been put out of its misery.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Unstable ==> Testing ==> Stable

[steef]

Hi there,
youre are far from an idiot. All this stuff like stable etc/ etc. rests on conventions. You wrote you never insxtalled something other than 
stable. So: do not worry why should you worry about this shit. In a philosophical way your point of view if you have any developed now on 
this topic can be argumented as well I think.

have a nice sunday,
steef


rhkra...@gmail.com schreef op 13-04-20 om 15:29:

Aside: for my own self respect, I want to make some sort of disclaimer here
(with maybe several points):  I'm sure that sometimes I post things that do
any of (1) make other people cringe (for one reason or another), (2) make me
look uninformed (or worse), and (3) other causes for embarrassment (to myself
of others).

I finally realized that the "normal" progression / hierarchy of the Debian
releases is from Unstable to Testing to Stable.

I never looked it up -- I assume that, like most people, we don't look up
everything but make assumptions based on past experience.  I expected that the
normal progression for Debian releases would be from Testing (trying all / any
kind of new, possibly weird things), to Unstable (concentrating on things that
survived some initial testing and now maybe being released to a select group
for some real pounding en route to Stable.

(I've never used anything other than stable releases, so my misunderstanding
hasn't had any real world effect on my systems, but I have been confused at
times, and suspect that maybe one other person out there may have similarly
been confused.)

Re: Synaptic error

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:04:34AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> As far as I know Synaptic must be run as root.  When I start it as user
> I get a dialog warning me that I will not be able to apply any changes
> and when I run it anyway "Apply" stays greyed out.

https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster#Changes

Re: Synaptic error

[John Hasler]

As far as I know Synaptic must be run as root.  When I start it as user
I get a dialog warning me that I will not be able to apply any changes
and when I run it anyway "Apply" stays greyed out.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Unstable ==> Testing ==> Stable

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 13 apr 20, 09:29:50, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> Aside: for my own self respect, I want to make some sort of disclaimer here 
> (with maybe several points):  I'm sure that sometimes I post things that do 
> any of (1) make other people cringe (for one reason or another), (2) make me 
> look uninformed (or worse), and (3) other causes for embarrassment (to myself 
> of others).
> 
> I finally realized that the "normal" progression / hierarchy of the Debian 
> releases is from Unstable to Testing to Stable.

Correct. If you were to examine the archive with an ftp client you could 
notice that oldstable is actually a symlink to stretch, stable is a 
symlink to buster and testing is a symlink to bullseye (the codename for 
the next release).

Unstable always points to sid.

> I never looked it up -- I assume that, like most people, we don't look up 
> everything but make assumptions based on past experience.  I expected that 
> the 
> normal progression for Debian releases would be from Testing (trying 
> all / any kind of new, possibly weird things),

That would be experimental (also known as rc-buggy).

> to Unstable (concentrating on things that survived some initial 
> testing and now maybe being released to a select group for some real 
> pounding en route to Stable.

Trivia: Long ago Debian only had stable and unstable, testing was 
introduced later.

Basically packages that are meant for the next stable release are 
uploaded to unstable. If they satisfy certain criteria established by 
the Release Team (no new RC bugs, tests and/or age in unstable, etc.) 
they migrate to testing automatically.

In order to prepare for release, testing is "frozen", i.e. the automatic 
migration is disabled and only targeted fixes for RC bugs are manually 
approved by the Release Team[1].

When the Release Team considers everything is "ready"[2] the release 
happens.

The next release starts as copy of stable and automatic migration from 
unstable is enabled again.

[1] This is a simplification, in practice the freeze has different 
stages with different rules.
[2] RC bug count is low enough, the distribution overall is consistent, 
etc.

Hope this explains,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

[Michael Howard]

On 13/04/2020 14:53, Celejar wrote:

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:48:00 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:


On 2020-04-11, Anil F Duggirala  wrote:

Perhaps it simply looks up your IP address. Would I be right in
thinking that you are located in your DC?

So. I right now physically in the beautiful city of Cali, Colombia.
And
Gnome Maps is showing my location precise to about a 10 meter radius
of
my actual location. That is my concern. Location Services are Off and
have never been turned on on this machine.


I should not have said a 10 meter radius, thats not fair. I would say,
always, within a 50 meter radius. Which imo is pretty precise for IP
based location.


BTW, I fed my IP address to this site

  https://www.maxmind.com/en/locate-my-ip-address

and it nails my location approximately within a 50 meter radius (I
entered the latitudinal and longitudinal coordinate output into Google's
search engine, which brings up the spot in their Maps app).

I found this surprising (in my vast ignorance).

Both maxmind and geoip.com put me about three miles from my actual
location (both at the same point).

Celejar



maxmind put's me 134.7 miles away from my location.

--
Michael Howard

Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

[Richard Owlett]

On 04/13/2020 08:53 AM, Celejar wrote:

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:48:00 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:


On 2020-04-11, Anil F Duggirala  wrote:


Perhaps it simply looks up your IP address. Would I be right in
thinking that you are located in your DC?

So. I right now physically in the beautiful city of Cali, Colombia.
And
Gnome Maps is showing my location precise to about a 10 meter radius
of
my actual location. That is my concern. Location Services are Off and
have never been turned on on this machine.


I should not have said a 10 meter radius, thats not fair. I would say,
always, within a 50 meter radius. Which imo is pretty precise for IP
based location.



BTW, I fed my IP address to this site

  https://www.maxmind.com/en/locate-my-ip-address

and it nails my location approximately within a 50 meter radius (I
entered the latitudinal and longitudinal coordinate output into Google's
search engine, which brings up the spot in their Maps app).

I found this surprising (in my vast ignorance).


Both maxmind and geoip.com put me about three miles from my actual
location (both at the same point).



I don't know about maxmind, but geoip.com misses me by OVER 400 miles.

Re: l'economiseur d'ecran c'est deprecie

[Dethegeek]

L'économiseur d'écran sur un écran LCD peut toujours être utile. En effet, j'ai 
déjà vu des écrans LCD ayant une image fantôme à cause d'un affichage quasi 
constant sur de nombreuses années. En l'occurrence c'était les bordures 
semi-graphiques qu'on rencontre typiquement dans une appli en TUI.

Le 13 avril 2020 16:15:14 GMT+02:00, hamster  a écrit :
>Le 13/04/2020 à 15:06, Basile Starynkevitch a écrit :
>> Ma machine à la maison est une "grosse" machine: AMD Ryzen
>> Threadripper 2970WX, carte mère MSI X399 SLI Plus, 64Go de RAM,
>> boitier bien ventilé, 12 Tera de disque dont un Samsung SSD 970 EVO
>> 2TB, deux cartes graphiques (AMD Radeon 570 + Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti).
>> Noyau Linux 5.5.0, xorg 2:1.20.8
>>
>> En général, elle est peu chargée. J'y développe actuellement
>> https://github.com/bstarynk/helpcovid/
>>
>> Régulièrement cette machine gèle ("freeze"). Je dois appuyer sur le
>> bouton Reset du boitier (le bouton d'ext Je n'ai pas eu le temps de
>> chercher pourquoi, mais mon intuition est un économiseur d'écran qui
>> plante le noyau ou au moins le serveur Xorg (j'incrimine Nvidia et ou
>> un truc OpenGL) lié à XFCE ou MATE. Car chaque fois que ça freez,
>> l'économiseur d'écran tournait!
>
>Ca ne répond pas a ta question mais l'économiseur d'écran c'était un
>truc fait pour économiser les tubes cathodiques. Avec un écran LCD (ou
>autre technologie d'écran plat) ca fait travailler le processeur pour
>rien.
>
>A moins que tu n'ait encore un vieil écran cathodique (ce donc je
>doute)
>il vaut bien mieux configurer ton ordi pour qu'il eteigne l'écran au
>bout d'un temps d'inactivité.
>
>Personnellement, je désinstalle systématiquement l'économiseur d'écran
>a
>chaque fois que je met debian sur un ordi. Je ne comprend d'ailleurs
>pas
>qu'une vieillerie caduque comme l'économiseur d'écran soit toujours
>installée et activée par défaut dans les distribs. Zut a la fin, on est
>au 21e siècle !

-- 
Envoyé de mon appareil Android avec Courriel K-9 Mail. Veuillez excuser ma 
brièveté.

Re: l'economiseur d'ecran c'est deprecie

[BERTRAND Joël]

hamster a écrit :
> Ca ne répond pas a ta question mais l'économiseur d'écran c'était un
> truc fait pour économiser les tubes cathodiques. Avec un écran LCD (ou
> autre technologie d'écran plat) ca fait travailler le processeur pour rien.
> 
> A moins que tu n'ait encore un vieil écran cathodique (ce donc je doute)
> il vaut bien mieux configurer ton ordi pour qu'il eteigne l'écran au
> bout d'un temps d'inactivité.
> 
> Personnellement, je désinstalle systématiquement l'économiseur d'écran a
> chaque fois que je met debian sur un ordi. Je ne comprend d'ailleurs pas
> qu'une vieillerie caduque comme l'économiseur d'écran soit toujours
> installée et activée par défaut dans les distribs. Zut a la fin, on est
> au 21e siècle !
> 

Mon truc, c'est l'électronique. Et dans mon dernier boulot, c'était
même les panneaux d'affichage LCD.

Deux choses. On arrive à marquer des écrans LCD. Les LCD à
rétroéclairage LED supportent mieux les cycles allumages/extinction que
les écrans utilisant des tubes. Mais l'électronique n'aime pas beaucoup
les cycles d'allumage et d'extinction. Donc l'économiseur d'écran n'est
pas forcément idiot.

JKB

Re: Debian/Sid sur "gros" ordinateur de bureau - plantage économiseur d'écran donc comment vidanger sur disque SSD

[BERTRAND Joël]

Jean-Michel OLTRA a écrit :
> 
> Bonjour,
> 
> 
> Le lundi 13 avril 2020, Basile Starynkevitch a écrit...
> 
>> Ma machine à la maison est une "grosse" machine: AMD Ryzen Threadripper
>> 2970WX, carte mère MSI X399 SLI Plus, 64Go de RAM, boitier bien ventilé, 12
>> Tera de disque dont un Samsung SSD 970 EVO 2TB, deux cartes graphiques (AMD
>> Radeon 570 + Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti). Noyau Linux 5.5.0, xorg 2:1.20.8
> 
>> En général, elle est peu chargée. J'y développe actuellement
> 
> Sur les Ryzen (j'ai un Ryzen 5), il y a un problème de gel de la machine lié
> à un certain état du processeur. J'ai vu des discussions sur les 5 et les 7.
> Pour le tien, je ne sais pas. Sur noyaux 4.x et 5.x, par ailleurs.
> 
> Si ça peut être ça, chercher "ryzen linux kernel freeze when idle" par
> exemple. Chez moi, la solution a été avec le script zenstates.py.

Je rebondis un peu sur le sujet, désolé de me greffer dans la
discussion. J'ai parcouru un peu les archives internet et je n'arrive
pas à avoir une idée claire. J'envisage de changer ma machine de bureau
justement pour un Ryzen 7 ou 9, mais sans GPU intégré (il me faut une
carte graphique de 2 ou 4 Go pour travailler sereinement). Est-ce que ce
bug se limite aux CPU avec GPU intégré (utilisés ou non) ou à tous les
Ryzen ?

Bien cordialement,

JKB

Re: l'economiseur d'ecran c'est deprecie

[hamster]

Le 13/04/2020 à 15:06, Basile Starynkevitch a écrit :
> Ma machine à la maison est une "grosse" machine: AMD Ryzen
> Threadripper 2970WX, carte mère MSI X399 SLI Plus, 64Go de RAM,
> boitier bien ventilé, 12 Tera de disque dont un Samsung SSD 970 EVO
> 2TB, deux cartes graphiques (AMD Radeon 570 + Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti).
> Noyau Linux 5.5.0, xorg 2:1.20.8
>
> En général, elle est peu chargée. J'y développe actuellement
> https://github.com/bstarynk/helpcovid/
>
> Régulièrement cette machine gèle ("freeze"). Je dois appuyer sur le
> bouton Reset du boitier (le bouton d'ext Je n'ai pas eu le temps de
> chercher pourquoi, mais mon intuition est un économiseur d'écran qui
> plante le noyau ou au moins le serveur Xorg (j'incrimine Nvidia et ou
> un truc OpenGL) lié à XFCE ou MATE. Car chaque fois que ça freez,
> l'économiseur d'écran tournait!

Ca ne répond pas a ta question mais l'économiseur d'écran c'était un
truc fait pour économiser les tubes cathodiques. Avec un écran LCD (ou
autre technologie d'écran plat) ca fait travailler le processeur pour rien.

A moins que tu n'ait encore un vieil écran cathodique (ce donc je doute)
il vaut bien mieux configurer ton ordi pour qu'il eteigne l'écran au
bout d'un temps d'inactivité.

Personnellement, je désinstalle systématiquement l'économiseur d'écran a
chaque fois que je met debian sur un ordi. Je ne comprend d'ailleurs pas
qu'une vieillerie caduque comme l'économiseur d'écran soit toujours
installée et activée par défaut dans les distribs. Zut a la fin, on est
au 21e siècle !

Re: Jitsi sur serveur debian/testing

[BERTRAND Joël]

NoSpam a écrit :
> Sur la partie apache je ne peux t'aider. Ton apache ne devrait pas
> écouter le 443, le 6443 comme dans mon exemple puis faire un proxy_pas
> sur jitsi.systelia.fr: en fonction du hostname appelé. À partir de
> là cela devrait être fonctionnel.

Oui, sauf que ça, c'est impossible. J'ai des utilisateurs qui n'ont
d'accessibles que les ports 80 et 443. Donc je fais avec ça.

Mon apache écoute sur les ports 80 et 443. jitsi-videobridge écoute sur
le 4443.

Ça devrait donc fonctionner. J'ai pourtant l'impression qu'il y a un
souci côté videobridge puisque :

Root rayleigh:[~] > wget https://192.168.254.1:4443
--2020-04-13 15:33:23--  https://192.168.254.1:4443/
Connexion à 192.168.254.1:4443… connecté.
GnuTLS: The TLS connection was non-properly terminated.
Incapable d’établir une connexion SSL.
Root rayleigh:[~] > wget http://192.168.254.1:4443
--2020-04-13 15:36:26--  http://192.168.254.1:4443/
Connexion à 192.168.254.1:4443… connecté.
requête HTTP transmise, en attente de la réponse… Aucune donnée reçue.
Nouvel essai.

--2020-04-13 15:36:42--  (essai :  2)  http://192.168.254.1:4443/
Connexion à 192.168.254.1:4443… connecté.
requête HTTP transmise, en attente de la réponse… ^C
Root rayleigh:[~] >

À tout hasard, que donnent ces commandes chez toi ? En remplaçant
naturellement le 4443 par 443.

JKB

Re: Debian/Sid sur "gros" ordinateur de bureau - plantage économiseur d'écran donc comment vidanger sur disque SSD

[Dethegeek]

Bonjour

Les pistes évoquées ressemblent étrangement à un bug que j'ai rencontré sur une 
machine à base de CPU j1900 chez Intel. Apparemment ce processeur a un bug de 
conception provoquant des freezes apparemment aléatoires, quand la machine est 
peu sollicitée.

La solution était de désactiver dans le BIOS (enfin... L'UEFI) certains niveaux 
d'économie d'énergie du CPU (les C-states pour être précis).

Peut être qu'une petite expérimentation a tâtons sur des réglages similaire 
pourrait aboutir à une stabilisation du système.

Par contre je trouve fâcheux ce genre de bug, quand ils se trouvent au niveau 
du hardware. 

Je trouve une explication intéressante des C-states ici : 
https://www.dell.com/support/article/fr-fr/qna41893/qu-est-ce-que-le-c-state?lang=fr

J'ignore si ils s'appliquent aux CPU d'AMD, n'en ayant pas utilisé depuis très 
longtemps. Mais les C-states étant une réponse à un besoin commun aux deux 
fondeurs, il y a des chances que ça existe au moins sous une autre appellation 
chez AMD.

Le 13 avril 2020 15:30:26 GMT+02:00, Michel  a écrit :
>Le 13/04/2020 à 15:10, Basile Starynkevitch a écrit :
>> Bonjour
>> 
>> 
>> Ma machine à la maison est une "grosse" machine: AMD Ryzen
>Threadripper 
>> 2970WX, carte mère MSI X399 SLI Plus, 64Go de RAM, boitier bien
>ventilé, 
>> 12 Tera de disque dont un Samsung SSD 970 EVO 2TB, deux cartes 
>> graphiques (AMD Radeon 570 + Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti). Noyau Linux 5.5.0, 
>> xorg 2:1.20.8
>> 
>> En général, elle est peu chargée. J'y développe actuellement 
>> https://github.com/bstarynk/helpcovid/
>> 
>> Régulièrement cette machine gèle ("freeze"). Je dois appuyer sur le 
>> bouton Reset du boitier (le bouton d'ext Je n'ai pas eu le temps de 
>> chercher pourquoi, mais mon intuition est un économiseur d'écran qui 
>> plante le noyau ou au moins le serveur Xorg (j'incrimine Nvidia et ou
>un 
>> truc OpenGL) lié à XFCE ou MATE. Car chaque fois que ça freez, 
>> l'économiseur d'écran tournait!
>> 
>> 
>
>Bonjour Basile,
>
>J'avais ce type de problème sur un portable ( Asus ROG G53SX, avec
>carte
>Nvidia GeForce GT 560M ), freezes aléatoires là aussi. J'avais testé
>plusieurs choses sans succès, puis j'ai désinstallé light-locker et
>tout
>est rentré dans l'ordre.
>
>Sans garantie, mais ça ne coûte rien d'essayer.

-- 
Envoyé de mon appareil Android avec Courriel K-9 Mail. Veuillez excuser ma 
brièveté.

Re: Lancer une appli graphique en ssh

[hamster]

Le 13/04/2020 à 15:12, ajh-valmer a écrit :
> Bonjour,
>
> Je tente de lancer une appli graphique depuis chez moi (client)
> depuis un serveur distant :
>
> ssh root@ -X xclock
> "X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.
> Error: Can't open display: localhost:10.0"
>
> J'ai vainement cherché, rien ne fonctionne, c'est désespérant,
> dont de lancer sur mon serveur distant xhost +
>
> Merci d'une piste, d'un tuto explicatif précis...

D'habitude je met l'option avant le login@ip, mais je sais pas si ca a
une importance.

Le transfert de la connexion X est dangereux parce que ca permet de
faire du keylogging. Cette option est donc fréquamment désactivée dans
la configuration du serveur X. Si c'est le cas sur la machine a laquelle
tu essaye de te connecter, c'est normal que ca coince. Tu peux essayer
avec l'option -Y a la place de -X. Je te laisse aller voir dans le man
ssh quelle est la différence.

Re: Debian/Sid sur "gros" ordinateur de bureau - plantage économiseur d'écran donc comment vidanger sur disque SSD

[Michel]

Le 13/04/2020 à 15:10, Basile Starynkevitch a écrit :
> Bonjour
> 
> 
> Ma machine à la maison est une "grosse" machine: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 
> 2970WX, carte mère MSI X399 SLI Plus, 64Go de RAM, boitier bien ventilé, 
> 12 Tera de disque dont un Samsung SSD 970 EVO 2TB, deux cartes 
> graphiques (AMD Radeon 570 + Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti). Noyau Linux 5.5.0, 
> xorg 2:1.20.8
> 
> En général, elle est peu chargée. J'y développe actuellement 
> https://github.com/bstarynk/helpcovid/
> 
> Régulièrement cette machine gèle ("freeze"). Je dois appuyer sur le 
> bouton Reset du boitier (le bouton d'ext Je n'ai pas eu le temps de 
> chercher pourquoi, mais mon intuition est un économiseur d'écran qui 
> plante le noyau ou au moins le serveur Xorg (j'incrimine Nvidia et ou un 
> truc OpenGL) lié à XFCE ou MATE. Car chaque fois que ça freez, 
> l'économiseur d'écran tournait!
> 
> 

Bonjour Basile,

J'avais ce type de problème sur un portable ( Asus ROG G53SX, avec carte
Nvidia GeForce GT 560M ), freezes aléatoires là aussi. J'avais testé
plusieurs choses sans succès, puis j'ai désinstallé light-locker et tout
est rentré dans l'ordre.

Sans garantie, mais ça ne coûte rien d'essayer.

Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

[Celejar]

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:48:00 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2020-04-11, Anil F Duggirala  wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > Perhaps it simply looks up your IP address. Would I be right in
> >> > thinking that you are located in your DC?
> >> So. I right now physically in the beautiful city of Cali, Colombia.
> >> And
> >> Gnome Maps is showing my location precise to about a 10 meter radius
> >> of
> >> my actual location. That is my concern. Location Services are Off and
> >> have never been turned on on this machine.
> >> 
> > I should not have said a 10 meter radius, thats not fair. I would say,
> > always, within a 50 meter radius. Which imo is pretty precise for IP
> > based location.
> >
> 
> BTW, I fed my IP address to this site
> 
>  https://www.maxmind.com/en/locate-my-ip-address
> 
> and it nails my location approximately within a 50 meter radius (I
> entered the latitudinal and longitudinal coordinate output into Google's
> search engine, which brings up the spot in their Maps app).
> 
> I found this surprising (in my vast ignorance). 

Both maxmind and geoip.com put me about three miles from my actual
location (both at the same point).

Celejar

Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

[Celejar]

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:03:30 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2020-04-11,   wrote:
> >
> > Note that I'm not recommending that site. It was just one
> > hit in the search engine.
> 
> I found another outfit that nailed me within a 50 meter radius (if that
> demonstrates anything).
> 
> 
>  https://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo
> 
> I'm not recommending these people either, BTW.

I'm not recommending them either, but note that they're a major
geolocation player, with dozens of packages in Debian that deal with
their data / format:

~$ apt-cache search maxmind | wc
 26 2411820

Celejar

Re: Debian/Sid sur "gros" ordinateur de bureau - plantage économiseur d'écran donc comment vidanger sur disque SSD

[Jean-Michel OLTRA]

Bonjour,


Le lundi 13 avril 2020, Basile Starynkevitch a écrit...

> Ma machine à la maison est une "grosse" machine: AMD Ryzen Threadripper
> 2970WX, carte mère MSI X399 SLI Plus, 64Go de RAM, boitier bien ventilé, 12
> Tera de disque dont un Samsung SSD 970 EVO 2TB, deux cartes graphiques (AMD
> Radeon 570 + Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti). Noyau Linux 5.5.0, xorg 2:1.20.8

> En général, elle est peu chargée. J'y développe actuellement

Sur les Ryzen (j'ai un Ryzen 5), il y a un problème de gel de la machine lié
à un certain état du processeur. J'ai vu des discussions sur les 5 et les 7.
Pour le tien, je ne sais pas. Sur noyaux 4.x et 5.x, par ailleurs.

Si ça peut être ça, chercher "ryzen linux kernel freeze when idle" par
exemple. Chez moi, la solution a été avec le script zenstates.py.

-- 
jm

Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[Reco]

Hi.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 08:09:02AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> tomás writes:
> > Please, folks. The subject (mail vs discourse) is thorny enough,
> > eliciting strong emotions (myself included).
> 
> > Mixing it up with group moderation is going to kill any chance
> > of having a productive discussion.
> 
> > It is as easy to moderate a mailing list as it is a platform à la
> > discourse. So this isn't a criterion to decide between both.
> 
> > So please: let's take one thing at a time, will we?
> 
> The OP brought up moderation by giving the ease of doing it as a major
> reason to switch to Discourse.  This implies an intent to implement it.

A small nitpick - I'm the OP, and the proposition was made by Neil
McGovern, Debian Developer.

Reco

Unstable ==> Testing ==> Stable

[rhkramer]

Aside: for my own self respect, I want to make some sort of disclaimer here 
(with maybe several points):  I'm sure that sometimes I post things that do 
any of (1) make other people cringe (for one reason or another), (2) make me 
look uninformed (or worse), and (3) other causes for embarrassment (to myself 
of others).

I finally realized that the "normal" progression / hierarchy of the Debian 
releases is from Unstable to Testing to Stable.

I never looked it up -- I assume that, like most people, we don't look up 
everything but make assumptions based on past experience.  I expected that the 
normal progression for Debian releases would be from Testing (trying all / any 
kind of new, possibly weird things), to Unstable (concentrating on things that 
survived some initial testing and now maybe being released to a select group 
for some real pounding en route to Stable.

(I've never used anything other than stable releases, so my misunderstanding 
hasn't had any real world effect on my systems, but I have been confused at 
times, and suspect that maybe one other person out there may have similarly 
been confused.)

Anacron timing

[l0f4r0]

Hi,

I installed anacron on my Debian 10 and I just want to be sure to understand 
how it works on Debian (I've read there are some distro-dependent 
configurations, including Debian) before I have some bad surprises ;)

Let's say I have a specific job "toto" inside /etc/cron.daily. This is one of 
the easiest use case.
Because I've installed anacron, everything in that directory is dealt with 
anacron, not cron.

Anacron seems to be launched via systemd timers, especially this one: 
/etc/systemd/system/timers.target.wants/anacron.timer 


As I want my jobs to be launched during the night included and on battery as 
well, I have:
* modified /etc/systemd/system/timers.target.wants/anacron.timer 
: I've replaced "OnCalendar=*-*-* 
07..23:30" by "OnCalendar=*-*-* *:00"
* created a file /etc/systemd/system/anacron.service.d/on-ac.conf with the 
following content:
[Unit]
ConditionACPower=

Questions:
* Is my understanding above correct please?
* Is anacron launched during startup as well or does it just depend on 
anacron.timer?
* Is it true that I cannot be 100% sure that my job "toto" will be launched at 
least 1x/day with this configuration? For example, if later today I'm putting 
my PC on hibernation or sleep mode and I'm waking it up tomorrow from 14:10 to 
14h50 only, my job won't be triggered, right? If so, would it be really heavy 
for the system to modify /etc/systemd/system/timers.target.wants/anacron.timer 
 into "OnCalendar=*-*-* *:*/10"?

Thank you in advance :)
Best regards,
l0f4r0

Re: Moderation (not!) [was: Debian is testing Discourse]

[Dan Purgert]

On Apr 13, 2020, John Hasler wrote:
> Brad writes:
> > Most web forums don't have email capability though.  Only discourse
> > and groups.io that I know of have it.
> 
> Though described as a mailing list manager Sympa has a full Web
> interface that might satisfy email-phobic millennials.

Thank Cthulhu I'm not email-phobic :)

I imagine few others who "really want to help out" are either; just that
they have to be guided.

-- 
|_|O|_| 
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281


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Re: Improving performance: RAM or CPU speed

[Celejar]

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 10:21:42 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> rhkramer writes:
> > When I have as few as 10 to 15 tabs open on the Firefox on my Jessie
> > system, Firefox crashes (I mentioned in a previous post in this thread
> > having a thousand or more tabs "open" in Firefox on Wheezy with
> > minimal problems -- yes occasional crashes (maybe once every 2 to 4
> > weeks?), but I couldn't come near that on Jessie, and I expect the
> > same problem on Buster.
> 
> What Firefox version?  I used to see frequent Firefox crashes
> (apparently memory leaks: my system is always up) but that stopped a few
> years ago (though the irritation of that has been replaced by the

I seem to have memory leaks with recent Firefox (currently 74.0.1-1 from
Sid) - memory use goes slowly but steadily up, and eventually gets
maxed out and the system grinds to a halt. It takes a while for this to
happen, but I find myself eventually needing to kill and restart
Firefox.

> irritation of being required to create a new profile every time I
> upgrade Firefox).

Interesting - apparently some people get this, but some don't (I update
regularly from the Sid repos, and I don't generally see this).

Celejar

Re: DOH (was: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps)

[Reco]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:14:44PM +0100, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Apr, 2020 at 12:57:54 +0300, Reco wrote:
> > Hi.
> > 
> > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 11:16:02AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > Whether DoH or DNS-over-TLS, you have to trust the DNS server.
> > 
> > Yup. That's why I have my own, and every Debian user can have their own
> > too, using only free software.
> > 
> 
> Pray tell us more. I use dnsmasq for clients on my LAN, but even that
> has to use an upstream name server --- in my case the one provided by my
> ISP.

1) Rent yourself a VPS, install bind there (there's no DNS but bind).
Replace bind with unbound if you need caching-only nameserver
(caching-only bind is possible, but it's an overkill).

2) Apply [1] to your dnsmasq.

3) Your ISP gets a TLS tunneled DNS request (and they can't do anything
about it), you get unmolested name resolution.

stunnel can be replaced with ipsec or openvpn or wireguard.
Whatever you use as a caching DNS on your end does not matter, as long
as it can forward DNS queries to another upstream DNS.

Reco

[1] https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01386