Re: have you seen this inside....

[David]

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 10:43, Seeds Notoneofmy  wrote:
> On 6/20/20 2:26 AM, Anders Andersson wrote:

> > Also, next time please respect the time of the thousands of people who
> > are going to read this message live or search for it during the next
> > years by selecting a more descriptive title...

> Thank you. I will do that next time. Sorry to everyone.

Here is a well-known guide how to ask good questions in
a mailing list like this one:
  http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

It contains a lot of good advice.

I agree with Anders Andersson, please read this section
in particular, heading "Use meaningful, specific subject headers":
  http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific

Because your chosen Subject Header just looks like
annoying click-bait, and we don't want that here.

If you want smart people to help you for free, it's wise to
communicate respectfully. They have better things
to do than click on some meaningless link to find out what
some careless person wrote in there.

No offence intended, I am just trying to help you fit in here
and thus get the kind of replies that you hope for.

Thanks!

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 19 June 2020 22:57:44 Dan Ritter wrote:

> Weaver wrote:
> > I think it's possible to get too politically correct.
>
> Try this phrase:
>
> "I think it's possible to get too polite."
>
> I suppose that's true -- if your object is to insult someone.
>
> > Why are we attaching a concept like skin colour to list names as a
> > serious proposition?
>
> Exactly. Since it doesn't matter to you, why not be polite?
>
> -dsr-

Chuckle, plays on words.  We had for decades, a senator who was so good 
at telling folks to go to hell in flowery well decorated language, that 
they looked forward to the trip.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: technical terms overhaul

[ghe2001]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

How about yesList, noList? Or for fans off Cisco IOS ACLs, permitList, 
denyList? With short aliases ylist, nlist or plist, dlist -- all blessed in an 
RFC so everybody but Microsoft will include them in their configuration 
language?

--
Glenn English
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: ProtonMail

wsBcBAEBCAAGBQJe7YFcAAoJEJ/XhjGCrIwy5PQIAKdR/NPKwn4J1vMc1TkY
PUO8j+oPRAfQnh5eED1f0XRwQHI3ECAQDFPIjT9HC0tAwiy/smT0A/5ViVRK
ctkdmdCpg7oT2M78HEMiXe0eke0yeGjQU8Dej02ZsptEskj40ut6zdAPcPna
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dRTe9uYN0Br4EzNSVU3HsqsxyvuEK3RmsLc9v9NoIujFW1BQdqXDQDZw5L/x
WHm/fHVL0gsYxupsHSYlTvJnj+5EckL+sOW7En0dTvKUxvSI0vJudjqnXa6C
wEl3Q/wWX46QZRRbz3Jrn/o=
=/b1y
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Re: technical terms overhaul

[Dan Ritter]

Weaver wrote: 
> 
> I think it's possible to get too politically correct.

Try this phrase:

"I think it's possible to get too polite."

I suppose that's true -- if your object is to insult someone.

> Why are we attaching a concept like skin colour to list names as a
> serious proposition?

Exactly. Since it doesn't matter to you, why not be polite?

-dsr-

Re: problems with installer

[Tu Can]

On [5], 2020-06-19 at 23:12 -0300, Michel Vale Ferreira wrote:
> hello. i tried to install a debian 10.4 virtual machine on a debian
> 10.4 host. the installer stops at finding mirrors to download 

you cloud update your packages after install debian. 

> packages because it doesn't set the dns. ping works, but no name
> resolution

dns problem is caused by modem's dhcp service (by default). check its
setting.

problems with installer

[Michel Vale Ferreira]

hello. i tried to install a debian 10.4 virtual machine on a debian 10.4
host. the installer stops at finding mirrors to download packages because
it doesn't set the dns. ping works, but no name resolution

Re: technical terms overhaul

[davidson]

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020, davidson wrote:
[snip]


Blacklist/whitelist are folksy names for the dual concepts of
filter/ideal, respectively.


This is false, and I am duly embarrassed.

I will see myself out now.

--
@almightygenie 8 Jun 2020 | @Windex
  Thanks, Windex. That’s a relief. Your drink is even more refreshing
  now that I know that it deplores racism & discrimination.
twitter.com/almightygenie/status/1270096054864809988

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 20/06/2020 11:19, Larry Martell wrote:

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:08 PM Eike Lantzsch  wrote:

I really like "redlist" and "greenlist".

Offensive to Native Americans and Martians.


And also culturally confusing to some Chinese in which red is a happy 
colour. As I understand it, Chinese stock market colour coding is 
opposite to Western.


Red/green is also the most common form of colour-blindness.

Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 20/06/2020 09:45, davidson wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Dan Ritter wrote:

Most things described as master/slave aren't actually very well
matched by that metaphor. Source/sink, boss/worker,

Woah there. "Team Leader" / "Team Member", please.


"Secretary of the Workers' Revolutionary Committee" was once popular, 
but has not yet, as far as I know, been applied to technology. Some 
high-availablity clusters vote to elect their leaders so that a 
defective primary can be deposed.


"Associate" is a popular weasel word for lowly-paid employees.

Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: Buster System hangs, requires hard reboot

[Ralph Katz]

I've added my experience to the existing bug 846296.

#846296 [e2fsprogs] ext4 checksum error
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=846296

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 20/06/2020 07:14, Eike Lantzsch wrote:

instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like to propose
the terms


This discussion reminds me of the PC gaming supremacists on the 
pcmasterrace subreddit .


The term "master" has a long history. In addition to its racial 
connotations, it is also gendered.


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: technical terms overhaul

[davidson]

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Eike Lantzsch wrote:


On Friday, 19 June 2020 17:42:51 -04 davidson wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Eike Lantzsch wrote:

On the danger of starting a flame war ...
thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian


Link?

https://gwolf.org/2020/06/on-masters-and-slaves-whitelists-and-blacklists.html
I thought that Planet Debian is well known on this list.  I'm sorry
not to have provided the link right away.


I am glad to have the link. Thank you.

Let us remember that $Giantcorp and $Nationstate hold power at orders
of magnitude higher than we do, who are the poor slobs who may be
incited (or not) to fight over just how woke (or not) to make this
relatively non-technical vocabulary.

$Giantcorp will be happy to call their filters whatever. And change
nothing meaningful.

Blacklist/whitelist are folksy names for the dual concepts of
filter/ideal, respectively. No need to make up new words. The famously
Woke field of mathematics already did the work for us.

We don't call it St Petersburg due to our fervent anti-communist
beliefs. And when we called it Leningrad, that told you nothing
meaningful about our ideology either. And so on.

We called it whatever we called it because the historical analogues of
$Giantcorp and $Nationstate, in terms of real power---including the
power to name things---decided that's what it was called.

$Giantcorp will be very happy to change some names, and watch us
pretend that not only has something meaningful changed, but that it
was us who changed it.

$Giantcorp just loves it when we delude ourselves.

Gunnar Wolf writes,

  Etymological discussions on what, say, “master” really means may be
  interesting, but they miss the point and are irrelevant to this
  discussion.

and I agree with Wolf there, if nowhere else. Meaning is not at all
the point. Power is the point. We are MEANT to think meaning is at
issue. We are meant to be idiots divided.

Naming things is a demonstration of power you already have. The name
you choose doesn't matter. $Giantcorp knows this.

Contentious spats about the names of things don't change the
world. Names are not magic words. The world changes names, not the
other way around. (Go ahead, find a counterexample and I'll promptly
retract my claim.)


[rest snipped as I did not intend to use offensive speech - rather
the opposite]


Getting some strong Poe's Law vibes from you here. Thanks for the laugh.


All the best to you


You too, dear stranger. Stay free.

--
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12518471 alexk already addressed
your concern: your keys, preferably issued by your org's CA (instead
of being generated by you) should be short-lived, oftentimes for the
duration of your "work shift". The tools listed above support this.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[John Hasler]

Eike writes:
> instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the terms:
> "allowlist" and "rejectlist"

Yes, that improves communications.  The words are no longer and express
their meanings quite directly.

> instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like to
> propose the terms: "lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when
> electrically managing two pumps working on the same hydraulic circuit.

Incomprehensible to most people and not technically correct.  A device
with leading phase (by some measure: it may have lagging phase by
another) does not necessarily control one with lagging phase.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: have you seen this inside....

[Seeds Notoneofmy]

On 6/20/20 2:26 AM, Anders Andersson wrote:

Also, next time please respect the time of the thousands of people who
are going to read this message live or search for it during the next
years by selecting a more descriptive title...


Thank you. I will do that next time. Sorry to everyone.

Best wishes.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Weaver]

On 20-06-2020 06:14, David Wright wrote:

> Passlist and faillist, perhaps? Pass list already exists as a two word
> phrase, so people are used to saying it.

Oh, I don't know.
This introduces judgement and the concept of failure.
This could negatively impact on any number of personalities.
(tongue in cheek)

I think it's possible to get too politically correct.
Why are we attaching a concept like skin colour to list names as a
serious proposition?
White and black are fine unless you see something wrong in them.
In which case a session of introspection may be in order.

-- 
`Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful'.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.

Registered Linux User: 554515

Re: have you seen this inside....

[Anders Andersson]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 12:51 AM Seeds Notoneofmy
 wrote:
>
> a debian buster machine?
>
> ATI Radeon HD5450 PCI-e
>
> https://www.amazon.de/Sapphire-Radeon-HD5450-Grafikkarte-Speicher/dp/B0036DD4CO
>
> If so, how did you get it working, please?

1. Insert into computer.
2. Boot.

If this doesn't work for you, you need to post a description of the
error because it should just work out of the box.

Also, next time please respect the time of the thousands of people who
are going to read this message live or search for it during the next
years by selecting a more descriptive title...

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Larry Martell]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:34 PM Nicholas Geovanis 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:20 PM Larry Martell 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:08 PM Eike Lantzsch  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I really like "redlist" and "greenlist".
>>
>>
>> Offensive to Native Americans and Martians.
>>
>
> Are you Native American, like my son?
>
>> No just pointing out that everyone is offended by something these days.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:20 PM Larry Martell  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:08 PM Eike Lantzsch  wrote:
>
>>
>> I really like "redlist" and "greenlist".
>
>
> Offensive to Native Americans and Martians.
>

Are you Native American, like my son?

>

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Larry Martell]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:08 PM Eike Lantzsch  wrote:

>
> I really like "redlist" and "greenlist".


Offensive to Native Americans and Martians.

>

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[Brian]

On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:12:27 -0600, Tom Dial wrote:

> I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it
> appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from
> the end) is
> 
> apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \
> APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install
> 
> I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel
> ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that
> editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction.
> >From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this,
> but someone else might.
> 
> I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during
> installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the
> installed tasksel after the post-install reboot.

This post deserves a gold star; Richard will be over the moon to discover
that an uncluttered install of Debian 10 with MATE desktop is possible
when using d-i.

There is no need to run an altered tasksel script after the post-install
reboot. /target/usr/bin/tasksel can be edited after the base system is
installed and "true" changed to "false".

Does it work? Would I be writing this if it didn't?

-- 
Brian.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Eike Lantzsch]

On Friday, 19 June 2020 17:42:51 -04 davidson wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > On the danger of starting a flame war ...
> > thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian
>
> Link?
https://gwolf.org/2020/06/on-masters-and-slaves-whitelists-and-blacklists.html
I thought that Planet Debian is well known on this list. I'm sorry not to have
provided the link right away.

[rest snipped as I did not intend to use offensive speech - rather the
opposite]

All the best to you
--
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Eike Lantzsch]

On Friday, 19 June 2020 16:32:19 -04 Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 2:14 PM Eike Lantzsch  wrote:
> > On the danger of starting a flame war ...
> > thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian
> >
> > instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the terms:
> > "allowlist" and "rejectlist"
> > instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like to
> > propose
> > the terms:
> > "lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when electrically managing two pumps
> > working on the same hydraulic circuit.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> Keeping with the color dynamic but disconnecting it from potential racial
> connotations, how about "redlist" and "greenlist"?  I kinda feel like the
> five common traffic signal colors are pretty universal, especially the
> first three.

I really like "redlist" and "greenlist". Traffic lights abound in every country
and are most probably well understood everywhere.
Have a nice day
Eike

Re: technical terms overhaul

[rhkramer]

On Friday, June 19, 2020 05:42:51 PM davidson wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > On the danger of starting a flame war ...
> > thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian
> 
> Link?

I'm not the OP (I'm sitting in the peanut gallery).

Google worked, sort of -- apparently the "root" article is on LWN and behind a 
paywall until the 25th or so.  The following is what Gunnar Wolfe wrote on his 
home page, basically pointing to the article.  I don't know who the author of 
the article is, I suspect it it the editor of LWN (whose name I can't recall 
atm):

Quoting from http://gwolf.org/:

 On masters and slaves, whitelists and blacklists...
2020.06.18
LWN published today yet another great piece of writing, Loaded terms in free 
software. I am sorry, the content will not be immediately available to anybody 
following at home, as LWN is based on a subscription model — But a week from 
now, the article will be open for anybody to read. Or you can ask me (you most 
likely can find my contact addresses, as they are basically everywhere) for a 
subscriber link, I will happily provide it. In consonance with the current 
mood that started with the killing of George Floyd and sparked worldwide 
revolts against police brutality,...

have you seen this inside....

[Seeds Notoneofmy]

a debian buster machine?

ATI Radeon HD5450 PCI-e

https://www.amazon.de/Sapphire-Radeon-HD5450-Grafikkarte-Speicher/dp/B0036DD4CO

If so, how did you get it working, please?

Best wishes

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Dan Ritter]

Gene Heskett wrote: 
> On Friday 19 June 2020 15:37:51 Brian wrote:
> 
> > On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > > What do you think?
> >
> > If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?
> 
> I got the impression the target is a more PC terminology in todays 
> environment.

Gene:

the target is to not remind people of how badly they
were treated.

Happy to help.

-dsr-

Re: Copie privée et dvd ?

[hamster]

Le 19/06/2020 à 23:22, ptilou a écrit :
> Bonsoir,
>
> J’ai des dvd, et je souhaite faire une copie privée par sécurité, si je 
> venait à le rayer ou autre, je me demande c’est quoi le plus simple c’est dd, 
> on ffmpeg ?

Tu veux dire que tu parle de DVD commerciaux contenant des vidéos ? Ni
l'un ni l'autre. Les DVD du commerce sont pourris de protections contre
la copie et pour les contourner des trucs comme dd ne suffisent pas. Il
faut utiliser un logiciel dédié pour ripper les DVD.

https://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/ripper_un_dvd

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 19 June 2020 15:37:51 Brian wrote:

> On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > What do you think?
>
> If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?

I got the impression the target is a more PC terminology in todays 
environment.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: How long will this take?

[David Christensen]

On 2020-06-18 19:13, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 12 Jun 2020 at 07:51:30 (-0400), Michael Stone wrote:

On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 08:52:10PM -0500, David Wright wrote:



The only unaddressed point in my use case is the prevention of a
high-water mark, because zeroing the drive achieves precisely the
opposite. What ought I to be running, instead of badblocks -w -t random,
to achieve that goal?


Create the encrypted volume first, then write zeros to it. :)


Duh! That should work a treat. My posting that example bore me fruit.

Cheers,
David.



Benchmark is one thing.  But, from a security viewpoint, writing zeros 
to an encrypted volume amounts to providing blocks of plaintext for 
corresponding blocks of cyphertext, thereby facilitating cryptanalysis.



David

Re: technical terms overhaul

[riveravaldez]

> Most things described as master/slave aren't actually very well
> matched by that metaphor. Source/sink, boss/worker,
> dispatcher/receiver may be more accurate.

In my understanding, master/slave and boss/worker describe pretty much
the same (a relationship of power asymmetry, being generous, and labor
exploitation in variable degrees).
Source/sink and dispatcher/receiver, on the other hand, describe a
mere organization or task distribution.
Depending on the case, the two first couple of metaphors, or the two
lasts, would be more accurate.
The white/black case seems different, because the other four couples
describe well defined roles and functions, while this fifth example -
when criticized - appears as a legacy or remain of the master/slave
social relationship - maybe 'in disguise'.
For humans, white is also full-spectrum visible light refraction, and
black, full-spectrum visible light absorption - or absence of light.
So, not always black-and-white (as in typography, let's say) has a
necessary sociopolitical connotation, I guess.
Hope this has any utility.
Best regards!

Re: technical terms overhaul

[davidson]

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Dan Ritter wrote:
[snip]

Most things described as master/slave aren't actually very well
matched by that metaphor. Source/sink, boss/worker,


Woah there. "Team Leader" / "Team Member", please.

--
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12518471 alexk already addressed
your concern: your keys, preferably issued by your org's CA (instead
of being generated by you) should be short-lived, oftentimes for the
duration of your "work shift". The tools listed above support this.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Greg Wooledge]

https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashProgramming/04?action=diff=10=9

I went with "blocklist" because it's so close to the original term that
it should be easily understood.  Then, to match that, I chose "passlist"
for the other one.  It's a less obvious choice, and a different winner may
eventually emerge, but it'll do for now.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[davidson]

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, Eike Lantzsch wrote:


On the danger of starting a flame war ...
thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian


Link?


instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the terms:
"allowlist" and "rejectlist"


shitlist and shortlist.

Santa's naughtylist and nicelist.

hotlist and notlist.

Shall I continue?


instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like to propose
the terms:
"lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when electrically managing two pumps
working on the same hydraulic circuit.

What do you think?


I will reserve judgement on the merits of your proposal until I have
read the piece of G Wolf's to which you have yet to provide the link.

--
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12518471 alexk already addressed
your concern: your keys, preferably issued by your org's CA (instead
of being generated by you) should be short-lived, oftentimes for the
duration of your "work shift". The tools listed above support this.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Brian]

On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 16:03:24 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:56:06PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:42:11 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:37:51PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > 
> > > > If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?
> > > 
> > > If Eike is trying to start a social movement, this is... well, it's
> > > something.  But you'll need much broader exposure and more voices to
> > > join yours, if you hope to prevail.
> > 
> > Perhaps my question was too simple. I do not hope to prevail, just
> > obtain clarification. But maybe "you" does not mean "me".
> 
> True.  I got lazy, and mixed together sentences that are addressing
> both people in the cited material.  Also, I didn't want to get into
> the whole gendered pronoun issue.  Not in such a short email.


Not to worry, it happens. This is the sort of mail we get occasionally
in -user. Someone posts something that is contentious and likely to
stir up feelings without leading to a resolution. That someone then
disappears without providing any substantial information or engaging.
Theres's a name for this sort of behaviour but I have forgotten what
it is.

-- 
Brian.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Default User]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 15:14 Eike Lantzsch  wrote:

> On the danger of starting a flame war ...
> thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian
>
> instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the terms:
> "allowlist" and "rejectlist"
> instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like to
> propose
> the terms:
> "lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when electrically managing two pumps
> working on the same hydraulic circuit.
>
> What do you think?
>



I think that is absolutely ridiculous.

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[Marco Möller]

On 19.06.20 23:12, Tom Dial wrote:



On 6/19/20 09:28, Brian wrote:

On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 14:15:00 -0500, David Wright wrote:


On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 20:48:50 (+0100), Brian wrote:


AFAICT, it appears Recommends are *always* installed using the Installer,
irrespective of preseeding. Not *sometimes*.


One or two counterexamples are:

openssh-server Recommends xauth ¹
popularity-contest Recommends gnupg

Neither recommendation was installed until after booting,
when I was installing xserver-xorg and mutt respectively.

There are one or two more, like pigz and secureboot-db, but these are
Recommends of Recommends, which might muddy the issue.

But this is during the part of installation run through apt-get,
not debootstrap, where the process is more transparent to the user,
but likely uninfluenced by debootstrap options.


I would like to reassess what I wrote; some of it is incorrect and some
could do with further examination.

  > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for
  > installing the base system or additional software, but the second
  > configuration is carried out.

"recommends=false" does not influence the behaviour of debootstrap. It
does not, as the Manual says, install recommended packages. It was
incorrect for me to claim otherwise.

Richard's concern is with tasksel's default installation of recommended
packages. In this case "recommends=false" does not modify tasksel's
default behaviour. I think this is because "recommends=false" only acts
on apt based operations. In other words, tasksel is not apt.


I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it
appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from
the end) is

apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \
APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install

I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel
ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that
editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction.

From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this,

but someone else might.

I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during
installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the
installed tasksel after the post-install reboot.

Regards,
Tom Dial







Great information. Thanks a lot!
Marco.

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[Tom Dial]

On 6/19/20 09:28, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 14:15:00 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> 
>> On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 20:48:50 (+0100), Brian wrote:
>>>
>>> AFAICT, it appears Recommends are *always* installed using the Installer,
>>> irrespective of preseeding. Not *sometimes*.
>>
>> One or two counterexamples are:
>>
>> openssh-server Recommends xauth ¹
>> popularity-contest Recommends gnupg
>>
>> Neither recommendation was installed until after booting,
>> when I was installing xserver-xorg and mutt respectively.
>>
>> There are one or two more, like pigz and secureboot-db, but these are
>> Recommends of Recommends, which might muddy the issue.
>>
>> But this is during the part of installation run through apt-get,
>> not debootstrap, where the process is more transparent to the user,
>> but likely uninfluenced by debootstrap options.
> 
> I would like to reassess what I wrote; some of it is incorrect and some
> could do with further examination.
> 
>  > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for
>  > installing the base system or additional software, but the second
>  > configuration is carried out.
> 
> "recommends=false" does not influence the behaviour of debootstrap. It
> does not, as the Manual says, install recommended packages. It was
> incorrect for me to claim otherwise.
> 
> Richard's concern is with tasksel's default installation of recommended
> packages. In this case "recommends=false" does not modify tasksel's
> default behaviour. I think this is because "recommends=false" only acts
> on apt based operations. In other words, tasksel is not apt.

I notice that tasksel (= /usr/bin/tasksel) is a Perl program in which it
appears the "cmd" to be executed once selections are made (line 24 from
the end) is

apt-get -q -y -o APT::Install-Recommends=true -o \
APT::Get::AutomaticRemove=true -o APT::Acquire::Retries=3 install

I suspect that has something to do with the apparent fact that tasksel
ignores "recommends=false" from other sources. I also suspect that
editing that line would change the behavior in the desired direction.
>From long-standing practice and inclination I have no wish to test this,
but someone else might.

I assume this would need to be done by skipping tasksel during
installation of the d-i minimal system, then altering and running the
installed tasksel after the post-install reboot.

Regards,
Tom Dial

> 

Copie privée et dvd ?

[ptilou]

Bonsoir,

J’ai des dvd, et je souhaite faire une copie privée par sécurité, si je venait 
à le rayer ou autre, je me demande c’est quoi le plus simple c’est dd, on 
ffmpeg ?

Quelle commande préférer pour ffmpeg ?

Merci

— 
Ptilou

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Doug]

On 6/19/2020 4:28 PM, Marco Möller wrote:

On 19.06.20 21:14, Eike Lantzsch wrote:

On the danger of starting a flame war ...
thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian

instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the 
terms:

"allowlist" and "rejectlist"
instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like 
to propose

the terms:
"lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when electrically managing two 
pumps

working on the same hydraulic circuit.

What do you think?


What I think is that you're barking up the wrong fire-hydrant. Who knows 
or cares about pumps?


--doug



All the best
Eike
--
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE

Paradox: Getting live-updates about fatalities



This is a very good choice of names. I like it especially because it 
is also not speaking about good or bad, or passed and failed, which 
would be a technical classification, but simply it pronounces well 
what it is all about: accepted or banned, wished or not wished. So, I 
like much "allowlist" and "rejectlist", for me as a not native english 
speaker it becomes perfectly clear what is meant and what it is not 
meant to inlcude (it is nicely not including any statement about the 
quality of the items in the list).

Thanks al lot for the proposal! Marco.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Dan Ritter]

Greg Wooledge wrote: 
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:37:51PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > 
> > > What do you think?
> > 
> > If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?
> 
> If Eike is trying to start a social movement, this is... well, it's
> something.  But you'll need much broader exposure and more voices to
> join yours, if you hope to prevail.
> 
> Think Twitter, Youtube, Facebook.  Not (just) debian-user@lists.debian.org.
> 

Microsoft's Github and LinkedIn. Google's Chrome and Android
projects. The UK Cybersecurity Agency. Cisco.

All have already made public announcements.


There's no context where whitelist/blacklist is objectively
better than pass/fail or allow/block or always/never.

Most things described as master/slave aren't actually very well
matched by that metaphor. Source/sink, boss/worker,
dispatcher/receiver may be more accurate.

-dsr-

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 2:14 PM Eike Lantzsch  wrote:

> On the danger of starting a flame war ...
> thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian
>
> instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the terms:
> "allowlist" and "rejectlist"
> instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like to
> propose
> the terms:
> "lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when electrically managing two pumps
> working on the same hydraulic circuit.
>
> What do you think?
>

Keeping with the color dynamic but disconnecting it from potential racial
connotations, how about "redlist" and "greenlist"?  I kinda feel like the
five common traffic signal colors are pretty universal, especially the
first three.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Marco Möller]

On 19.06.20 21:14, Eike Lantzsch wrote:

On the danger of starting a flame war ...
thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian

instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the terms:
"allowlist" and "rejectlist"
instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like to propose
the terms:
"lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when electrically managing two pumps
working on the same hydraulic circuit.

What do you think?

All the best
Eike
--
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE

Paradox: Getting live-updates about fatalities



This is a very good choice of names. I like it especially because it is 
also not speaking about good or bad, or passed and failed, which would 
be a technical classification, but simply it pronounces well what it is 
all about: accepted or banned, wished or not wished. So, I like much 
"allowlist" and "rejectlist", for me as a not native english speaker it 
becomes perfectly clear what is meant and what it is not meant to 
inlcude (it is nicely not including any statement about the quality of 
the items in the list).

Thanks al lot for the proposal! Marco.

Re: "NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT"

[Seeds Notoneofmy]

On 6/19/20 9:28 PM, Seeds Notoneofmy wrote:


Thanks a lot. And here's that output:

05:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: NVIDIA Corporation G73
[GeForce 7600 GT] [10de:0391] (rev a1)

Best


I guess Hans was right, after all. This is what Debian asked to do


 Version 304.137 (legacy GPUs)

For support of GeForce 6 series and GeForce 7 series GPUs (supported
devices
).


1.

   Add "contrib" and "non-free" components to /etc/apt/sources.list,
   for example:

   # Debian 9 "Stretch"
   deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch main contrib non-free

2. Update the list of available packages. Install the appropriate
   NVIDIA driver package:

# apt install nvidia-legacy-304xx-driver

DKMS will build the nvidia module for your system, via the
nvidia-legacy-304xx-kernel-dkms
 package.

After, create an Xorg server configuration file
 and then
restart your system to enable the nouveau blacklist.


Except when you click on the DKMS link, there's no Buster package there.

I give up, except if I'm wrong with how I understand things.

Thanks to all, especially Hans, with whose help I could have saved a ton
of time.

Best

Re: technical terms overhaul

[David Wright]

On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 16:03:24 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:56:06PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:42:11 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:37:51PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > 
> > > > If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?
> > > 
> > > If Eike is trying to start a social movement, this is... well, it's
> > > something.  But you'll need much broader exposure and more voices to
> > > join yours, if you hope to prevail.
> > 
> > Perhaps my question was too simple. I do not hope to prevail, just
> > obtain clarification. But maybe "you" does not mean "me".
> 
> True.  I got lazy, and mixed together sentences that are addressing
> both people in the cited material.  Also, I didn't want to get into
> the whole gendered pronoun issue.  Not in such a short email.
> 
> P.S. I'd consider "goodlist" and "badlist" as replacement terms.  They're
> short, both in terms of syllables and characters.  Even shorter than the
> originals!  That's a good thing.  "Allowlist" and "rejectlist" both add
> a syllable, and the latter also adds characters.

Passlist and faillist, perhaps? Pass list already exists as a two word
phrase, so people are used to saying it.

Cheers,
David.

Re: How to build GCC for a specific machine using pbuilder?

[deloptes]

Mikhail Morfikov wrote:

> I know, but have you ever seen the debian/ dir in the gcc sources? Take a
> look here[1].
> 

Until now I have not, but what is exactly the problem?

You have what you need in the beginning

include debian/rules.defs
include debian/rules.unpack
include debian/rules.patch

control: $(control_dependencies)
-mkdir -p $(stampdir)
$(MAKE) -f debian/rules.conf $@

configure: control $(unpack_stamp) $(patch_stamp)
$(MAKE) -f debian/rules2 $@

all the rest is supplementary

so now you want to change the configuration and have a look at debian/rules2

It is more complicated, but I still don't understand what you expect here. 

If you know what you want to do with configure, then you can trash this and
create your own simple version.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:09:36PM +, ghe2001 wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> Alist and Flist?

"A-list" already has a different meaning.  (I've also heard "B-list" in
that same context.)

"A" and "F" as antonyms is too US-centric as well.  Other school systems
do not use that particular grading scheme, so it won't work world-wide.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[ghe2001]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Alist and Flist?

--
Glenn English
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: ProtonMail

wsBcBAEBCAAGBQJe7Rt5AAoJEJ/XhjGCrIwyqZ8IAKkZjpfw1m4Gu1ssBp3Q
SeL1uf3eaclgrqPYWPG/Nr5jcvDhcMrbFLnBC8mDHs9t0hiykju6QTUfdLuI
cLL4uVaiC/Ef+ESQdn3gEPdQd/EFlrb1xOFyUeYkaLJM5jI5hwAcANZhswaB
timoYcjADF21B1ThyRfdeL3IorBuWpqsb0LmAi/mmR0BgmOnfouGLOht5XIv
66IxKXNCbjXv6gkkfpbyNSSJU7SK79rWa5F1MSFy5/364q9JmXdeq6D0+JwV
XYlYzVPnK6dP2RVvnb0X3Pt423Z4C0tkSeIvD5SEYmJc+N6yackYADnUB2vF
CO++gO7m0PM0fB5m24pAa90=
=+kg6
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:56:06PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:42:11 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:37:51PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > > 
> > > > What do you think?
> > > 
> > > If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?
> > 
> > If Eike is trying to start a social movement, this is... well, it's
> > something.  But you'll need much broader exposure and more voices to
> > join yours, if you hope to prevail.
> 
> Perhaps my question was too simple. I do not hope to prevail, just
> obtain clarification. But maybe "you" does not mean "me".

True.  I got lazy, and mixed together sentences that are addressing
both people in the cited material.  Also, I didn't want to get into
the whole gendered pronoun issue.  Not in such a short email.

P.S. I'd consider "goodlist" and "badlist" as replacement terms.  They're
short, both in terms of syllables and characters.  Even shorter than the
originals!  That's a good thing.  "Allowlist" and "rejectlist" both add
a syllable, and the latter also adds characters.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Brian]

On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:42:11 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:37:51PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> > 
> > > What do you think?
> > 
> > If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?
> 
> If Eike is trying to start a social movement, this is... well, it's
> something.  But you'll need much broader exposure and more voices to
> join yours, if you hope to prevail.

Perhaps my question was too simple. I do not hope to prevail, just
obtain clarification. But maybe "you" does not mean "me".

-- 
Brian.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[fmneto]

Greetings!


I think that's a wonderful idea! It's about time we got rid of
terms like that. The terms might need some work but they are definitely
an improvement on the previous ones.

And this matters regardless of context.

Cheers,
Francisco

On Fri, 2020-06-19 at 15:14 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> On the danger of starting a flame war ...
> thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian
> 
> instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the
> terms:
> "allowlist" and "rejectlist"
> instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like
> to propose
> the terms:
> "lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when electrically managing two
> pumps
> working on the same hydraulic circuit.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> All the best
> Eike
> --
> Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE
> 
> Paradox: Getting live-updates about fatalities
> 
> 
> 
-- 
 


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 08:37:51PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:
> 
> > What do you think?
> 
> If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?

If Eike is trying to start a social movement, this is... well, it's
something.  But you'll need much broader exposure and more voices to
join yours, if you hope to prevail.

Think Twitter, Youtube, Facebook.  Not (just) debian-user@lists.debian.org.

Re: technical terms overhaul

[Brian]

On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 15:14:26 -0400, Eike Lantzsch wrote:

> What do you think?

If we knew what you were talking about it would help. Link?

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to build GCC for a specific machine using pbuilder?

[Mikhail Morfikov]

On 19/06/2020 18:36, deloptes wrote:
> Mikhail Morfikov wrote:
> 
>> I've read something about setting flags like: --enable-languages= or
>> --disable-multilib , which I think would speed the whole process up, but
>> unfortunately I have no idea which file in the debian/ dir I should change
>> to build the GCC for my machine only. Any suggestions? Also how to
>> include/exclude patches so they were applied to the source -- there's no
>> "debian/patches/series" file.
> 
> usually it is in debian/rules (this is the debians make file)
> 
> read the docs first - the thing with the patches is explained on the debian
> wiki like
> https://wiki.debian.org/debian/patches
> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/modify.en.html
> https://wiki.debian.org/debian/patches
> 
> be patient it works
> 
> 

I know, but have you ever seen the debian/ dir in the gcc sources? Take a look 
here[1]. 

[1]: https://salsa.debian.org/toolchain-team/gcc



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: "NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT"

[Seeds Notoneofmy]

On 6/17/20 1:52 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:

Because you didn't use "lspci -nn".

See alsohttps://bugs.debian.org/929984


Thanks a lot. And here's that output:

05:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: NVIDIA Corporation G73
[GeForce 7600 GT] [10de:0391] (rev a1)

Best

technical terms overhaul

[Eike Lantzsch]

On the danger of starting a flame war ...
thinking about the article by Gunnar Wolf on Planet Debian

instead of "whitelist" and "blacklist" I would like to propose the terms:
"allowlist" and "rejectlist"
instead of (for example on disk drives) "master" and "slave" I like to propose
the terms:
"lead" and "lag" which are e.g. used when electrically managing two pumps
working on the same hydraulic circuit.

What do you think?

All the best
Eike
--
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE

Paradox: Getting live-updates about fatalities

Re: apt-pinnig incoherente [SOLUCIONADO]

[Alejandro Gutiérrez]

no lo creo, el único paquete de los repos de mx es firefox, todo lo demás
es de los repos  de debían buster

El vier., 19 de junio de 2020 09:34, JAP Debian <
javier.debian.bb...@gmail.com> escribió:

> El 18/6/20 a las 20:29, Alejandro Gutiérrez escribió:
> > Yo uso los repositorios de la distro mx-linux que esta basada en buster
> > y tiene una versión actualizada de firefox, y no tengo q estar haciendo
> > malabares con el apt-pinning
>
> Eso es FrankenDebian.
> JAP
>
>

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[Brian]

On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 06:23:00 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 06/18/2020 10:25 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Mi, 17 iun 20, 06:51:18, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > 
> > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap.
> > > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take
> > > some time/effort to learn it.
> > 
> > If you are going to start from scratch you should consider mmdebstrap
> > instead (preferably the version in bullseye). It is mostly a drop-in
> > replacement for deboostrap, but significantly faster and with some very
> > useful additional features.
> 
> IIRC I had looked at it when experimenting with debootstrap and was confused
> by its use of chroot. My goal was creating a bootable system on a flash
> drive.
> 
> > 
> > As to the learning curve, deboostrap itself is quite easy. The hard part
> > is getting a usable system *after* the deboostrap step.
> > 
> > At that point one gets to really appreciate the hard work that went
> > behind debian-installer ;)
> 
> You are "preaching to the choir" ;/

I've sometimes thought you were using a different hymn sheet though. :)

> That why I'm investigating making the installer do what I want.

That's a laudable aim, but d-i will not be bent to doing what it is not
designed to do. For example, suppose you want to install the MATE task
without its recommended packages; you are on a loser.
 
> In a way, my underlying problem is Debian has done too good a job
> in creating a system maximally useful to the broadest spectrum of users.
> They don't use my preferred programs for some functions and including
> functions I have no interest in. That results in unnecessary clutter and
> size.

I am unsure whether Debian has created any system. What it has done is
an outstanding job of packaging and providing a competent installer. It
is up to a user to create a system that suits their needs.

Your preferred programs are not installed using task-mate-desktop? It
includes programs of little interest to you? Dead easy. Do

  apt install install task-mate-desktop --no-install-recommends

and go from there.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 09:30:30AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> Why not start with a minimal working system, even adding a few
> select tools, and then see what isn't necessary for your own
> minimalist system. Now you can try removing them from a *working*
> system and, should you go too far, you still have the tools to
> diagnose what's gone wrong, and fix it.

The way I handle this is to indeed install a minimal Debian system
with d-i and preseeding and then use configuration management
software to turn that system into what it is "supposed" to be,

There are a plethora of configuration management solutions that are
all pretty well documented, and there are multiple choices that have
an active vibrant community. I currently use Ansible, other popular
choices include Puppet. There are many more.

Basically I would advocate doing a minimal job of OS installation in
d-i+preseed and then doing the rest in something more understandable
and verbose. Given that you can run arbitrary commands in the
installed system you can automate anything at all in the
configuration management.

It also has the advantage of recording the recipe for baking that
particular kind of system as an item of code/configuration that gets
stored in source code control (e.g. git, subversion, …) forever;
changes to it can be documented and reasoned about at a later date.

I have explained all this to Richard before but he doesn't appear
interested in investigating this, preferring to try to wrangle the
d-i for every task. I don't think it's a good strategy.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: How to build GCC for a specific machine using pbuilder?

[deloptes]

Mikhail Morfikov wrote:

> I've read something about setting flags like: --enable-languages= or
> --disable-multilib , which I think would speed the whole process up, but
> unfortunately I have no idea which file in the debian/ dir I should change
> to build the GCC for my machine only. Any suggestions? Also how to
> include/exclude patches so they were applied to the source -- there's no
> "debian/patches/series" file.

usually it is in debian/rules (this is the debians make file)

read the docs first - the thing with the patches is explained on the debian
wiki like
https://wiki.debian.org/debian/patches
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/modify.en.html
https://wiki.debian.org/debian/patches

be patient it works

Re: actualizar youtube-dl de Buster a Bullseye en estable.

[Channel Herrera]

Seguramente falta alguna libreria...o dependencia rota instala con aptitude
no se por que tengo la sensación de ser mas fiable que apt

El lun., 8 jun. 2020 10:00 p. m., Germán Avendaño Ramírez <
gdavenda...@autistici.org> escribió:

>
> JavierDebian writes:
>
> > Agrega el repositorio
> >
> > deb https://www.deb-multimedia.org buster main non-free
> >
> > (Sigue las instrucciones de aquí)
> >
> > Actualiza  youtube-dl con todas las librerías que le dependen.
> >
> > Se solucionan los problemas de multimedia en todo.
> >
> > JAP
>
> Se puede instalar youtube-dl usando las instrucciones de la página del
> proyecto. Aquí también se dan instrucciones para usar pip (python)
>
> Instrucciones https://ytdl-org.github.io/youtube-dl/download.html
>
> Atentamente,
>
> --
> Germán Avendaño Ramírez
> Lic. Mat. U.D., M.Sc. U.N
>
>

Re: OT - Gimp-plugin-registry en Debian 11

[Channel Herrera]

Amigo, buenas y si colocas repos debian estable y lo cargas solo ese
plugin, no es lo mejor pero aveces me ha funcionado con algunas librerias
que todavia no apacen.


El vie., 12 jun. 2020 10:43 a. m., Camaleón  escribió:

> El 2020-06-12 a las 17:13 +0100, José Manuel (Abogado) escribió:
>
> > El 11/6/20 a las 7:02, Camaleón escribió:
> > > El 2020-06-10 a las 22:43 +0100, José Manuel (Abogado) escribió:
> > >
> > > > He instalado en Debian bullseye:
> > > > # apt install gimp-plugin-registry
> > > > lo compruebo y me aparece
> > > > # apt install gimp-plugin-registry
> > > > Leyendo lista de paquetes... Hecho
> > > > Creando árbol de dependencias
> > > > Leyendo la información de estado... Hecho
> > > > gimp-plugin-registry ya está en su versión más reciente
> (9.20180625+nmu1).
> > > > 0 actualizados, 0 nuevos se instalarán, 0 para eliminar y 0 no
> actualizados.
> > > >
> > > > Me indica que esta instalado, pero en Gimp /filtros/realzar/  no
> aparece
> > > (...)
> > >
> > > ¿Y qué filtro buscas, exactamente?
> > >
> > > El paquete que has instalado es una especie de recopilatorio de
> > > extensiones de todo tipo (filtros, complementos y scripts) para The
> Gimp,
> > > por lo que cada uno aparecerá dentro de su sección correspondiente.
> > > Saludos,
> >
> > Gracias por contestar.
> > Tienes razón ese plugin tiene muchas herramientas una de ellas que a mi
> me
> > interesa es la heal selectión (quita objetos no deseados de las fotos,
> > parecido al plugin que tiene photosohop). y es la que no me aparece al
> > instalarlo en Debian bullseye ni a través de los repos ni manualmente
> > descargándolo desde la página web
> >
> https://github.com/aferrero2707/gimp-plugins-collection/releases/tag/continuous
> >
> > y ponerlo en la carpeta /home/usuario/.config/GIMP/2.10/plug-ins pero
> > tampoco me aparece o por lo menos yo no lo veo.
>
> Según este foro¹, sugieren que necesitas el paquete «gimp-python», pero
> efectivamente, ese paquete no está disponible para testing².
>
> Si el filtro necesita algún paquete o biblioteca adicional, deberías
> informar del
> fallo en el BTS de Debian, para que lo corrijan (recuerda que estás con
> una versión de pruebas).
>
> 'Heal Selection' Missing in Gimp 2.10.6 on Ubuntu 18.10
>  on-Ubuntu-18-10
> 
> >
>
> ²No gimp-python in Debian (Testing)
>  an-testing
> 
> >
>
> Saludos,
>
> --
> Camaleón
>
>

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[Brian]

On Thu 18 Jun 2020 at 14:15:00 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Wed 17 Jun 2020 at 20:48:50 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> >
> > AFAICT, it appears Recommends are *always* installed using the Installer,
> > irrespective of preseeding. Not *sometimes*.
>
> One or two counterexamples are:
>
> openssh-server Recommends xauth ¹
> popularity-contest Recommends gnupg
>
> Neither recommendation was installed until after booting,
> when I was installing xserver-xorg and mutt respectively.
>
> There are one or two more, like pigz and secureboot-db, but these are
> Recommends of Recommends, which might muddy the issue.
>
> But this is during the part of installation run through apt-get,
> not debootstrap, where the process is more transparent to the user,
> but likely uninfluenced by debootstrap options.

I would like to reassess what I wrote; some of it is incorrect and some
could do with further examination.

 > My observations indicate that the first claim does not work for
 > installing the base system or additional software, but the second
 > configuration is carried out.

"recommends=false" does not influence the behaviour of debootstrap. It
does not, as the Manual says, install recommended packages. It was
incorrect for me to claim otherwise.

Richard's concern is with tasksel's default installation of recommended
packages. In this case "recommends=false" does not modify tasksel's
default behaviour. I think this is because "recommends=false" only acts
on apt based operations. In other words, tasksel is not apt.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[Brian]

On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 06:15:48 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Mi, 17 iun 20, 20:48:50, Brian wrote:
> > 
> > debootstrap is only run during the installation of the base system. It
> > installs recommended packages. That is in contradiction to what the
> > Manual says.
> 
> For "regular" use deboostrap does not install Recommends.

This has always been my understanding too.
> 
> According to the manpage it does have a '--debian-installer' option for 
> "internal purposes by the debian-installer" with no other information on 
> what it does.

I back down completely on my statement above regarding debootstrap
and recommended packages. It was based on a laxness in not checking
the Priority: of a package. The Manual is correct and there is no
contradiction.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[David Wright]

On Fri 19 Jun 2020 at 06:23:00 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 06/18/2020 10:25 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Mi, 17 iun 20, 06:51:18, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > 
> > > The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap.
> > > I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take
> > > some time/effort to learn it.
> > 
> > If you are going to start from scratch you should consider mmdebstrap
> > instead (preferably the version in bullseye). It is mostly a drop-in
> > replacement for deboostrap, but significantly faster and with some very
> > useful additional features.
> 
> IIRC I had looked at it when experimenting with debootstrap and was
> confused by its use of chroot. My goal was creating a bootable system
> on a flash drive.
> > 
> > As to the learning curve, deboostrap itself is quite easy. The hard part
> > is getting a usable system *after* the deboostrap step.
> > 
> > At that point one gets to really appreciate the hard work that went
> > behind debian-installer ;)
> 
> You are "preaching to the choir" ;/
> 
> That why I'm investigating making the installer do what I want.
> 
> In a way, my underlying problem is Debian has done too good a job
> in creating a system maximally useful to the broadest spectrum of
> users. They don't use my preferred programs for some functions and
> including functions I have no interest in. That results in unnecessary
> clutter and size.

I couldn't agree less; I think you're starting at the wrong end.
There's plenty of evidence in the lists that you have run the d-i
countless times, yet I haven't seen any evidence that you've tried
to analyse how it works by, say, reading the source, notwithstanding
the fact that you play your cards close to your chest.

In choosing to work on "taming" the d-i, you've chosen a piece of
software that, by its very nature, is obscure in how it works.
It's even composed of packages that differ from their "grown-up"
cousins in the final OS installation, limiting the transfer of
knowledge.

A Debian installation is loaded up with any number of introspective
tools for examining its own composition and behaviour. None of that
is available to you while the d-i is running. Just crudely trying
to understand what it did after the event involves merging its log,
apt's history, and the screens displayed by its front-end (if you
remembered to record their timings). And even that casts little
light on the debootstrap stage. Looking at its log, you can see
that, for much of the time, the system is in a semi-broken state,
ignoring its own dependency and configuration problems. Is that
really what you want to work on?

Why not start with a minimal working system, even adding a few
select tools, and then see what isn't necessary for your own
minimalist system. Now you can try removing them from a *working*
system and, should you go too far, you still have the tools to
diagnose what's gone wrong, and fix it.

That way, you end up having constructed a post-installation script
that, instead of installing nearly 300 packages and purging two
like mine, will purge a modest number of packages and install
very few.

One other benefit: the knowledge and skills you gain in this process
will be far more transferable than a deeper understanding of the d-i.
After all, I haven't gained the impression that you're in technical
charge of rolling out, say, 5000 installations of Debian across
some institution or other.

Cheers,
David.

How to build GCC for a specific machine using pbuilder?

[Mikhail Morfikov]

I wanted to change the GCC source a little bit by adding some patches that 
aren't available in Debian. I downloaded the Debian GCC source via "apt-get 
source" . I tried to build the source in the Debian way (using pbuilder) just 
to test how much time would it take. I gave up after 2h because probably it 
builds everything for everyone, and it's not really what I wanted it to do. 

I've read something about setting flags like: --enable-languages= or 
--disable-multilib , which I think would speed the whole process up, but 
unfortunately I have no idea which file in the debian/ dir I should change to 
build the GCC for my machine only. Any suggestions? Also how to include/exclude
patches so they were applied to the source -- there's no 
"debian/patches/series" 
file.



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Re: apt-pinnig incoherente [SOLUCIONADO]

[JAP Debian]

El 18/6/20 a las 20:29, Alejandro Gutiérrez escribió:
Yo uso los repositorios de la distro mx-linux que esta basada en buster 
y tiene una versión actualizada de firefox, y no tengo q estar haciendo 
malabares con el apt-pinning


Eso es FrankenDebian.
JAP

Re: [HS] Cloner depuis Debian un disque Win10 Lenovo

[Dethegeek]

Il y a l'obligation d'utiliser le format docx ou xlsx pour la partie 
administration des établissements scolaires (au moins les lycées de ce que je 
sais).

Coté pédagogique, l'obligation d'enseigner a utiliser Microsoft word / excel. 
L'obligation d'enseigner la CAO avec des logiciels d'Autodesk, ou Dassault (qui 
sont pour windows uniquement).

Toutes ces sociétés font du lobbying en offrant gratuitement des licences 
étudiant ou à très bas coût. Idem pour les établissements scolaires avec des 
licences de l'ordre de 20/30€ par poste. Comparez avec la version boite ou 
dématérialisée pour grand public ou petite entreprise

Tout cela renforce le besoin s'utilise windows, et créée une dépendance a ce 
système et son écosystème. Les entreprises utilisent majoritairement ces 
logiciels pour leurs corps de métier respectif. Les jeunes ayant appris de 
facto un logiciel propriétaire auront la flemme (et on peut les comprendre car 
leur priorité est de se lancer dans la vie active) d'apprendre un autre outil, 
qui de surcroît sera plus ou moins marginal.

Voilà le secret.

Le 19 juin 2020 12:59:14 GMT+02:00, Stephane Ascoet 
 a écrit :
>Le 17/06/2020 à 12:37, Haricophile a écrit :
>> Bref, même sans des bug de Windows comme celui qui traîne depuis
>> longtemps et qui peut écraser totalement le disque externe USB lors
>> d'une mise à jour majeure, je me demande toujours comment dans les
>> entreprises on peut encore avoir encore du Windows, il y a des trucs
>> que je dois ignorer dans le déploiement/maintenance de Micro$oft, ou
>> alors les aberrations que je vois très régulièrement dans le SI de
>> l'entreprise de ma femme (un grand groupe) sont considéré comme
>> normales...
>
>Bonjour, dans mon universite, les arguments pour eliminer le libre sont
>
>effectivement lies a ce que tu subodores. On aurait pu esperer que la 
>hausse des risques d'attaques informatiques aillent dans notre sens, 
>mais helas ou je travaille c'est l'inverse: le but est de deployer des 
>ordinateurs qui sont tous des clones avec une configuration que le 
>service informatique controle. Ce n'est pas nouveau, mais les
>exceptions 
>a cela sont de moins en moins acceptees(ou alors on les laisse dans
>leur 
>coin sans s'occuper de leur parc, si on detecte des problemes de 
>securite, on leur coupe le reseau et ils se debrouillent pour
>corriger). 
>Et donc, ce qu'on m'oppose pour faire tout ca avec du libre, c'est
>qu'il 
>manque a GNU/Linux au moins les choses ci-dessous, a peu pres classe du
>
>plus bloquant a celui qui l'est un peu moins:
>-un equivalent au m$ Active Directory permettant de gerer tout le parc 
>avec tout ce que ca implique(referencement des postes; suivi de quelle 
>personne est connectee, quand et sur quelle machine; envoi de nos 
>paquets de facon automatique, des mises a jours etc.). Bien sur tout ca
>
>est faisable en libre, avec des combinaisons de briques necessitant un 
>gros travail, du monde, et des competences, que nous n'avons pas et 
>n'auront pas pour des raisons multiples(cout apparent, philosophie, 
>difficultes de recrutement...). Helas les universites ne sont plus les 
>viviers de libristes qu'elle furent(en tous cas pas la mienne). Et meme
>
>si en fait, Active Directory est, pour quelqu'un habitue a voir des 
>outils logiques comme l'est tout linuxien, une grosse merde a la m$(un 
>empilage de couches et de bidouilles qui dialoguent plus ou moins 
>ensembles via d'obscurs empilements d'outils et de protocoles, chacun 
>necessitant licence, installation et maintenance), fonctionnant au
>final 
>tres mal(l'exemple donne dans un autre courriel d'un service ne pouvant
>
>pas demarrer parce qu'il en a besoin d'un autre dont le status est 
>pourtant bien "demarre" est typique du quotidien de la maintenance de
>ce 
>type de centrale nucleaire) et n'offre en realite une integration pas
>si 
>complete que promise(au final la firme de Redmond doit plus en savoir 
>sur les systemes qui tournent via l'espionnage que nous), mais je suis 
>bien isole a trouver que c'est plus de la magie noire que de la vraie 
>informatique. Ceux qui gerent tout cela sont completement formates et 
>trouvent normal et passionnant de passer son temps a investiguer des 
>trucs comme cela, a bricoler des scripts avec des regles obscures pour 
>s'appliquer sur les groupes d'ordinateurs voulus, etc.
>-un support sans faille et automatique de tout nouveau materiel, y 
>compris un peu exotique;
>-nous utilisons aussi des applications metiers qui ne seraient pas 
>compatibles(ou pour les plus recentes, en mode Web notamment, 
>demanderaient un gros travail de MAJ et test);
>-L'impossibilite de faire tourner les suites m$ Office et Adobe (ou 
>equivalents parfaitement compatibles et avec interface identique);
>-"Et puis de toute facon maintenant win10 a un mode Linux alors tu 
>devrais etre content";
>-"Tu nous emmerdes avec ta parano sur les libertes et ton idealisme
>naif 
>d'ecolo vegane arnarco-communiste".
>-- 
>Cordialement, 

Re: Disabling recommends - was [Re: bash-completion pros/cons]

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/18/2020 10:25 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Mi, 17 iun 20, 06:51:18, Richard Owlett wrote:


The purpose is to determine if I want to do future installs debootstrap.
I attempted to use debootstrap a few years ago and understand it will take
some time/effort to learn it.


If you are going to start from scratch you should consider mmdebstrap
instead (preferably the version in bullseye). It is mostly a drop-in
replacement for deboostrap, but significantly faster and with some very
useful additional features.


IIRC I had looked at it when experimenting with debootstrap and was 
confused by its use of chroot. My goal was creating a bootable system on 
a flash drive.




As to the learning curve, deboostrap itself is quite easy. The hard part
is getting a usable system *after* the deboostrap step.

At that point one gets to really appreciate the hard work that went
behind debian-installer ;)


You are "preaching to the choir" ;/

That why I'm investigating making the installer do what I want.

In a way, my underlying problem is Debian has done too good a job
in creating a system maximally useful to the broadest spectrum of users. 
They don't use my preferred programs for some functions and including 
functions I have no interest in. That results in unnecessary clutter and 
size.

Re: [HS] Cloner depuis Debian un disque Win10 Lenovo

[Stephane Ascoet]

Le 17/06/2020 à 12:37, Haricophile a écrit :

Bref, même sans des bug de Windows comme celui qui traîne depuis
longtemps et qui peut écraser totalement le disque externe USB lors
d'une mise à jour majeure, je me demande toujours comment dans les
entreprises on peut encore avoir encore du Windows, il y a des trucs
que je dois ignorer dans le déploiement/maintenance de Micro$oft, ou
alors les aberrations que je vois très régulièrement dans le SI de
l'entreprise de ma femme (un grand groupe) sont considéré comme
normales...


Bonjour, dans mon universite, les arguments pour eliminer le libre sont 
effectivement lies a ce que tu subodores. On aurait pu esperer que la 
hausse des risques d'attaques informatiques aillent dans notre sens, 
mais helas ou je travaille c'est l'inverse: le but est de deployer des 
ordinateurs qui sont tous des clones avec une configuration que le 
service informatique controle. Ce n'est pas nouveau, mais les exceptions 
a cela sont de moins en moins acceptees(ou alors on les laisse dans leur 
coin sans s'occuper de leur parc, si on detecte des problemes de 
securite, on leur coupe le reseau et ils se debrouillent pour corriger). 
Et donc, ce qu'on m'oppose pour faire tout ca avec du libre, c'est qu'il 
manque a GNU/Linux au moins les choses ci-dessous, a peu pres classe du 
plus bloquant a celui qui l'est un peu moins:
-un equivalent au m$ Active Directory permettant de gerer tout le parc 
avec tout ce que ca implique(referencement des postes; suivi de quelle 
personne est connectee, quand et sur quelle machine; envoi de nos 
paquets de facon automatique, des mises a jours etc.). Bien sur tout ca 
est faisable en libre, avec des combinaisons de briques necessitant un 
gros travail, du monde, et des competences, que nous n'avons pas et 
n'auront pas pour des raisons multiples(cout apparent, philosophie, 
difficultes de recrutement...). Helas les universites ne sont plus les 
viviers de libristes qu'elle furent(en tous cas pas la mienne). Et meme 
si en fait, Active Directory est, pour quelqu'un habitue a voir des 
outils logiques comme l'est tout linuxien, une grosse merde a la m$(un 
empilage de couches et de bidouilles qui dialoguent plus ou moins 
ensembles via d'obscurs empilements d'outils et de protocoles, chacun 
necessitant licence, installation et maintenance), fonctionnant au final 
tres mal(l'exemple donne dans un autre courriel d'un service ne pouvant 
pas demarrer parce qu'il en a besoin d'un autre dont le status est 
pourtant bien "demarre" est typique du quotidien de la maintenance de ce 
type de centrale nucleaire) et n'offre en realite une integration pas si 
complete que promise(au final la firme de Redmond doit plus en savoir 
sur les systemes qui tournent via l'espionnage que nous), mais je suis 
bien isole a trouver que c'est plus de la magie noire que de la vraie 
informatique. Ceux qui gerent tout cela sont completement formates et 
trouvent normal et passionnant de passer son temps a investiguer des 
trucs comme cela, a bricoler des scripts avec des regles obscures pour 
s'appliquer sur les groupes d'ordinateurs voulus, etc.
-un support sans faille et automatique de tout nouveau materiel, y 
compris un peu exotique;
-nous utilisons aussi des applications metiers qui ne seraient pas 
compatibles(ou pour les plus recentes, en mode Web notamment, 
demanderaient un gros travail de MAJ et test);
-L'impossibilite de faire tourner les suites m$ Office et Adobe (ou 
equivalents parfaitement compatibles et avec interface identique);
-"Et puis de toute facon maintenant win10 a un mode Linux alors tu 
devrais etre content";
-"Tu nous emmerdes avec ta parano sur les libertes et ton idealisme naif 
d'ecolo vegane arnarco-communiste".

--
Cordialement, Stephane Ascoet

Re: KDE run Dolphin as root?

[tomas]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 05:54:38AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Mi, 17 iun 20, 10:55:55, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > 
> > Making things user friendly (something we *gotta* do) means sometimes
> > taking decisions for the user. Where's the limit? Where's too much
> > (authoritarian software)? Where's too litle (RTFM software)? You'll
> > be wrong most of the time for some users, and some of the time for
> > most users.
> 
> In my opinion Chrome OS (and I assume Chromium OS as well) gets many 
> things right, Debian could learn a lot from it.

That's the point. In Sally's opinion it's Mac. In Betty's, it's Windows
(but not after '95). In Sue's, OTOH...

(BTW. for all I've seen of Chrome OS, I'd either run away screaming or
scrub it from the computer, depending on my momentary mood).

How to cater to all of those? And, more importantly: how to enable (or
better: seduce) all of those to tinker away, if they wish to do so?

After all, that last point is the "mission statement" of free software.
There was a meme around one of the first free smartphones, the OpenMoko:

  "WARRANTY VOID WHEN NOT OPENED" [1] [2]

I think in these days, where the attacks on freedom come sometimes in
the guise of convenience rather than constraint (in some privileged
parts of the world, at least!), this point becomes ever more important.

Cheers

[1] https://www.vanille.de/blog/openmoko-10-years-after-mickeys-story/
[2] http://fidzu.com/fidzu/openmoko

-- tomás


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