Re: Bug with audio muting - which package?

[Stanislav Vlasov]

пн, 5 июн. 2023 г. в 05:36, Paul Martz :

> If I mute audio in the desktop, then reboot into console mode, the SpeakUp 
> screen reading software is also muted. I think this is a bug - muting the 
> desktop should be a desktop property and should not affect the console screen 
> reader. But I’m not sure which package I should file the bug against. Any 
> help would be appreciated. Thanks.

You may try to bugreport for pulseaudio, but i think this bug will be
rejected — pulseaudio (sound service) and alsa (hardware interface) is
systemwide, not desktop-only.

-- 
Stanislav

Re: Mount Permissions

[ce]

On 6/4/23 5:46 PM, Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:59:21AM -0400, ce wrote:
> > I have a mountpoint where all files under it have a group `fuse`.
>
> You need to provide details, or else nobody can help you with anything.
>
> What kind of hardware is this file system on?
>
> What kind of file system is it?
>
> How did you mount it?  (Show the command you used, and any output that
> it produced.)
>
> What does "mount" with no arguments say about the file system?  (Hint:
> you can grep for the name of the file system.)
>
> What does the root level of the file system look like in "ls -la"?
>
> What did you EXPECT it to look like?
>
>

sid amd64 with btrfs

/etc/fstab:

```
LABEL=part2 /mnt/part2 btrfs compress=lzo 0 1
```

$ ls -l /mnt/part2
```
drwxr-xr-x 1 me root 34 May 01 00:40 @subvolume
```

$ ls -l /mnt/part2/@subvolume

Some entries have user `me` but most entries have user `fuse`.

Idk what mount says it's mounted automatically.

chmod allows changing the group.

Let's see what a reboot does.

Re: Debian USB Wifi

[Charles Curley]

On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 21:52:28 -0300
Rodrigo Cunha  wrote:

> I want to buy a usb to wifi network. How do I check if the
> hardware(usb) has debian support?

0) Try it.

1) Search on the name of the device and the word "linux".

2) Each USB device has a unique identifier, eight hexidecimal characters
   with a colon (:) in the middle, e.g. 10ec:8176. Get that, and search
   on that and the word "linux".

3) There are web sites out there that identify whether Linux supports a
   USB device. Use one. https://linux-hardware.org/ is one such site.

4) Ask on this list with the name of the device and its identifier.
   Perhaps someone on the list has one.

Until you've named the device there isn't much we can do for you.

Perhaps a better way to go is to ask on this list for suggestions of
what to buy. I can suggest that you should avoid the ASUS USB-N 13
Adapter Wireless-N300. This, in spite of the claim of Linux support on
the box.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Debian USB Wifi

[hlyg]

On 6/5/23 08:52, Rodrigo Cunha wrote:


Hi all,
I want to buy a usb to wifi network. How do I check if the 
hardware(usb) has debian support?




you can ask sellers if their wifi adapters are linux compatible

at my local market, only a few products have label "linux compatible", 
nearly all support Windows from win7 to win10


use google search, keyword="linux wifi adapter" to find more info

https://www.fosslinux.com/46681/linux-compatible-wireless-network-adapters.htm

Debian USB Wifi

[Rodrigo Cunha]

Hi all,
I want to buy a usb to wifi network. How do I check if the hardware(usb)
has debian support?

-- 
Atenciosamente,
Rodrigo da Silva Cunha
São Gonçalo, RJ - Brasil

Bug with audio muting - which package?

[Paul Martz]

Hi all. 

If I mute audio in the desktop, then reboot into console mode, the SpeakUp 
screen reading software is also muted. I think this is a bug - muting the 
desktop should be a desktop property and should not affect the console screen 
reader. But I’m not sure which package I should file the bug against. Any help 
would be appreciated. Thanks.

Paul Martz
PaulMartz.com

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 07:54:48PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:

> If you're not willing to do the work to diagnose your own system, then
> this thread is over.

Guess it's over. thanks to all who have tried to help.

--

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:43:29PM +, therealcyclist wrote:
> Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 07:18:36PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:
> > If you are running "startx" on tty1 in Debian 11 and Xorg is running
> > as root instead of your regular user account, then START THERE.
> 
> I have tested debian 12 not 11.

OK.

> > What video card do you have?
> 
> nvidia/amd *seperate systems

Pick ONE of the systems, and go into DETAIL.  Actually RUN COMMANDS
and figure shit out!

What is the ACTUAL CARD?

lspci -nn | grep -i vga

That may not be a strong enough command for all setups.  I don't remember
how you have to grep when dealing with Optimus systems.  If your system
has multiple video cards, say so.

> > Which driver is Xorg using?  (Find the actually correct Xorg.0.log file --
> > there may be more than one -- and find the driver details in there.)
> 
> nvidia/amdgpu *seperate systems

Find the log file and ACTUALLY CHECK IT.

None of this hand-waving bullshit.

> > Is the xserver-xorg-legacy package installed?
> 
> apt install i3-wm xinit 
> don't pull it. 

Run "dpkg -l xserver-xorg-legacy" to find out whether it's installed.

I am not aware of any way startx as a non-root user could launch an Xorg
as root if that package is not installed, so I'm VERY curious to learn
the actual details of what is going on with your system.

> > Do you have all the firmware installed that your video card wants?
> > (Look for "firmware" in dmesg.)
> 
> firmware-amd-graphics/firmware-nvidia-gsp

Actually RUN THE COMMAND.  dmesg | grep -i firmware

Find out what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

No hand-waving.

No guessing.

No generalizing.

No conflating multiple systems together as if they are one system.

Pick one system and DO THE ACTUAL WORK.

If you're not willing to do the work to diagnose your own system, then
this thread is over.

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 07:18:36PM -0400 schrieb Greg Wooledge:
> On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:03:27PM +, therealcyclist wrote:
> > Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 08:26:55PM +0200 schrieb Vincent Lefevre:
> > > i3-wm is a window manager, not a display manager. So it depends on
> > > what display manager you're using (if any).
> > 
> > so we assume that the majority use a display manager who cares about this 
> > via polkit or similar.
> > x11 as root by default is a security risk to which all those running i3-wm 
> > under xinit are unnecessarily exposed.
> > unless they know what they are doing.
> 

> If you are running "startx" on tty1 in Debian 11 and Xorg is running
> as root instead of your regular user account, then START THERE.

I have tested debian 12 not 11.

> What video card do you have?

nvidia/amd *seperate systems

> Which driver is Xorg using?  (Find the actually correct Xorg.0.log file --
> there may be more than one -- and find the driver details in there.)

nvidia/amdgpu *seperate systems

> Is the xserver-xorg-legacy package installed?

apt install i3-wm xinit 
don't pull it. 

> Do you have all the firmware installed that your video card wants?
> (Look for "firmware" in dmesg.)

firmware-amd-graphics/firmware-nvidia-gsp

--

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:03:27PM +, therealcyclist wrote:
> Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 08:26:55PM +0200 schrieb Vincent Lefevre:
> > i3-wm is a window manager, not a display manager. So it depends on
> > what display manager you're using (if any).
> 
> so we assume that the majority use a display manager who cares about this via 
> polkit or similar.
> x11 as root by default is a security risk to which all those running i3-wm 
> under xinit are unnecessarily exposed.
> unless they know what they are doing.

Dear gods.  Stop babbling about political nonsense!

If you are running "startx" on tty1 in Debian 11 and Xorg is running
as root instead of your regular user account, then START THERE.

That is the PROBLEM.  Now let's DIAGNOSE it.  We need DETAILS!

What video card do you have?

Which driver is Xorg using?  (Find the actually correct Xorg.0.log file --
there may be more than one -- and find the driver details in there.)

Is the xserver-xorg-legacy package installed?

Do you have all the firmware installed that your video card wants?
(Look for "firmware" in dmesg.)

Here are some things that DO NOT MATTER:

 * the name of the window manager you are using, if any

 * the name of any display manager that is not installed, because you're
   not using any, because you're running startx, and we already KNOW THIS

 * polkit

 * anything you do AFTER startx

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[therealcyclist]

Am Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 08:26:55PM +0200 schrieb Vincent Lefevre:
> On 2023-06-02 22:21:56 +, therealcyclist wrote:
> > Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 07:07:05PM +0200 schrieb Michel Verdier:
> > > Le 2 juin 2023 therealcyclist a écrit :
> > > 
> > > > I tried the new Debian bookworm installer rc4 and i manually installed 
> > > > i3-wm.
> > > > I started i3 from tty with startx command as user.
> > > > to my surprise i found out that the xorg process is running as root.
> > > > that can't be intentional, can it?
> > > 
> > > Maybe because some display managers want xorg as root
> > > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xorg#Rootless_Xorg
> > 
> > You linked to the Archlinux Wiki and I have installed i3-wm under
> > archlinux and there X11 runs without root privileges by default.
> > 
> > I assumed that it is the same under Debian because Debian is known
> > for having relatively safe default values.
> > It looks like i3 doesn't need x11 as root either.
> 
> i3-wm is a window manager, not a display manager. So it depends on
> what display manager you're using (if any).
> 

so we assume that the majority use a display manager who cares about this via 
polkit or similar.
x11 as root by default is a security risk to which all those running i3-wm 
under xinit are unnecessarily exposed.
unless they know what they are doing.

---

Fwd: problem with local DNS

[Maureen L Thomas]

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:problem with local DNS
Date:   Fri, 2 Jun 2023 18:53:47 -0400
From:   Maureen L Thomas 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org



I am using a Lonova all in one computer with the latest debian on it.  
Bullseye is working fine except for the warning I get as follows:  your 
current proxy settings do not allow local DNS req 
(network.proxy.socks_remote)dns).


I have the nordvpn installed and I wonder if that is part of the 
problem.  Or maybe not.  I do not want to get rid of the vpn if at all 
possible.  I appreciate your help.  Intel® Core™ i3-9100T CPU @ 3.10GHz 
× 4,  Mesa Intel® UHD Graphics 630 (CFL GT2).


Moe

Re: Mount Permissions

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:59:21AM -0400, ce wrote:
> I have a mountpoint where all files under it have a group `fuse`.

You need to provide details, or else nobody can help you with anything.

What kind of hardware is this file system on?

What kind of file system is it?

How did you mount it?  (Show the command you used, and any output that
it produced.)

What does "mount" with no arguments say about the file system?  (Hint:
you can grep for the name of the file system.)

What does the root level of the file system look like in "ls -la"?

What did you EXPECT it to look like?

Mount Permissions

[ce]

I have a mountpoint where all files under it have a group `fuse`.

This is strange to me.

As far as I can remember, Ubuntu doesn't do this.

Re: Cable colors and urban legends

[gene heskett]

On 6/2/23 22:41, Stefan Monnier wrote:

5~10 years ago, I cut the end off of a bad red SATA cable.
To my surprise, the copper conductor was disintegrating as Gene describes.
Unbelievable.
Somebody botched their chemical engineering.


Cool: second first hand account.  Thanks.
So there is at least some anectodal evidence.

I also found a potentially related reference to a 70's problem
with corrosive wire insulation at 
https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/304699/Oxidation+of+copper+wire
but still can't find anything more concrete (and that one doesn't
mention the insulation's dye as the culprit).


 Stefan

I'm convinced after chasing electrons to make them do work since the 
middle of WW-II, that the dye is the most likely suspect. The evidence 
is admittedly thin, but its there by the fact that other colors may 
flex, fatigue from flexing and fail but they are still copper colored 
when cut into. In broadcasting, which I switched to in late '63 after 
getting a 1st phone in '62,  dependability is the target and while its 
not even the biggest reason for replacing a cable, I have probably 
replaced half a mile of it that no longer said it was conductive, 5 or 6 
feet at a time. I've never been reticent about calling a maker who 
screwed up and telling them so. The surprising thing is that of course 
there are folks who've never made a mistake, those soon get crossed off 
my procurement list. However 90% of such phone calls have been met with 
at first surprise, and then thanked for alerting them to what could be a 
costly warranty make good. Those folks filtered to the top of my srcs 
lists.  Some of my hunches have worked very well if only by serendipity.
As a mid market CE, we often would buy yesterdays tech from folks in the 
top 10 markets, so we bought one of the legendary Grass Valley 300-3A/B 
production video switchers, this one from the JCPennys production house 
in NYC. It had some problems, mostly corrosion from NYC's poor air. Chip 
legs turned black, so we bought tarnex by the pint. Several times.


It also had a serial interface, so I wrote an e-disk that worked better 
than grasses $20,000 item, ran it on an old coco2 with floppy drives.


Once I had that working I could ask a circuit to do something and see 
its response. This thing was full of 4 bit wide fifo's, 2 to make an 8 
bit byte.


They were out to lunch and usually late getting back. Called Grass, it 
was special and they were out.  Sorta memory, so I called AMD next, 
yeah, we made them for grass but we've given then a JEDEC number now, 
how many do you want at $1.90 ea, so I ordered a stick of 25.  Fixed it 
right up. I could go on with my war stories, but I'm boring the list 
with off topic rattling. Just suffice to say I've BT & DT many times.


Take care & stay well Stefan.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Formato de fecha en Thunderbird

[José María]

El dom, 04-06-2023 a las 20:12 +0200, Camaleón escribió:

> Hola,
> 

Buenas.


> Sólo comentar un descubrimeitno, por si a alguien (al igual que yo),
> no 
> se había enterado y le sirve.
> 
> Uso Thunderbird como cliente de correo, y el formato de las fechas
> era 
> sencillamente... vamos a decir «poco práctico» (dd/mm/aa, hh:mm).
> 
> Durante años estuve buscando alguna forma sencilla de configurarlo
> para 
> que el formato fuera algo más útil pero todo pasaba por hacer cambios
> globales de la variables de entorno y no quería usar inventos que 
> acabaran por estropear alguna otra cosa maś seria.
> 
> Hasta que hoy, vuelvo a buscar y me encuentro con este artículo donde
> explican cómo hacerlo... ¡y funciona, sin más, sin hacer malabares!
> :_)
> 
> Customize Date and Time formats in Thunderbird
>  
> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customize-date-time-formats-thunderbird
> 
> Y este, que es más antiguo pero también útil.
> 
> Date display format
> https://kb.mozillazine.org/Date_display_format
> 
> Después de tropecientos años, mi cliente de correo me muestra una 
> fecha razonable (dd-mm-, HH:mm).
> 

Nunca me había fijado, pero ahora que lo dices tiene sentido.

Luego le echaré un vistazo... Gracias por el apunte.


> ¡Albricias!
> 

Jajajaja



Un saludo,
Jose

Re: Error Messages

[Mick Ab]

Is it possible that the CPU or motherboard could cause the problem ?

Re: X11 should not run as root or?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2023-06-02 22:21:56 +, therealcyclist wrote:
> Am Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 07:07:05PM +0200 schrieb Michel Verdier:
> > Le 2 juin 2023 therealcyclist a écrit :
> > 
> > > I tried the new Debian bookworm installer rc4 and i manually installed 
> > > i3-wm.
> > > I started i3 from tty with startx command as user.
> > > to my surprise i found out that the xorg process is running as root.
> > > that can't be intentional, can it?
> > 
> > Maybe because some display managers want xorg as root
> > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xorg#Rootless_Xorg
> 
> You linked to the Archlinux Wiki and I have installed i3-wm under
> archlinux and there X11 runs without root privileges by default.
> 
> I assumed that it is the same under Debian because Debian is known
> for having relatively safe default values.
> It looks like i3 doesn't need x11 as root either.

i3-wm is a window manager, not a display manager. So it depends on
what display manager you're using (if any).

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Formato de fecha en Thunderbird

[Camaleón]

Hola,

Sólo comentar un descubrimeitno, por si a alguien (al igual que yo), no 
se había enterado y le sirve.

Uso Thunderbird como cliente de correo, y el formato de las fechas era 
sencillamente... vamos a decir «poco práctico» (dd/mm/aa, hh:mm).

Durante años estuve buscando alguna forma sencilla de configurarlo para 
que el formato fuera algo más útil pero todo pasaba por hacer cambios 
globales de la variables de entorno y no quería usar inventos que 
acabaran por estropear alguna otra cosa maś seria.

Hasta que hoy, vuelvo a buscar y me encuentro con este artículo donde 
explican cómo hacerlo... ¡y funciona, sin más, sin hacer malabares! :_)

Customize Date and Time formats in Thunderbird
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customize-date-time-formats-thunderbird

Y este, que es más antiguo pero también útil.

Date display format
https://kb.mozillazine.org/Date_display_format

Después de tropecientos años, mi cliente de correo me muestra una 
fecha razonable (dd-mm-, HH:mm).

¡Albricias!

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón 

Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?

[tomas]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:44:11AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:

[...]

> > But,first of all,I think that there are a LOT of old PCs in the world,since
> > poor people aren't only a niche.
> 
> I think you underestimate the scale of the e-waste problem. Simply giving
> people better, less obsolete, hardware is (IMO) a much better use of
> resources than trying to continue to use older hardware for no real reason
> other than a desire to use really old hardware. Even just considering
> environmental consciousness, saving a 5 year old PC from the landfill and
> throwing out a 10 year old PC is a net positive in terms of energy
> efficiency if nothing else.

There is some truth to this. In this sweeping generality, though, this
is more false than true.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Presentación

[Gerardo Braica]

Por que no? Probemos el grupo a ver que tal ...

El 3/6/23 a las 16:48, Deiby Herrera escribió:
Bienvenidosi gustan 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/174111979365602/?ref=share_group_link


El sáb., 3 de junio de 2023 11:55 a. m., Leo Marín 
 escribió:


Saludos compa y bienvenido.

El sáb, 3 de jun. de 2023 09:45, Eliecer Rangel
 escribió:

Mí nombre es Eliecer Rangel (Sertecsoft) soy de Colombia,
técnico en mantenimiento y reparación de computadoras con una
actualización en soporte técnico y administración de sistemas
operativos GNU/Linux. Un gusto para mí hacer parte de esta
comunidad y colaborar con la misma.

Estoy presto a ayudar a otros usuarios de habla hispana en
esta hermosa Distribución (Debian).



--
*/Gerardo Braica
*/gbra...@gmail.com.ar
/*/*

Re: exim - bad file descriptor

[Michel Verdier]

Le 4 juin 2023 Steve a écrit :

> Does this help?

Yes, nothing is done after rotation. But I don't remember the default
exim logging mechanism. Can you provide

grep -r log_file_path /etc/exim*

Re: 10 year old machines are slow (was: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[Curt]

On 2023-06-02, Bret Busby  wrote:
>
> Whoever posted the message to which the above message is a reply, is 

An enduring mystery to know why Monnier refuses the convention of
attributions. Then again, one of the smaller mysteries. 

Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?

[Michael Stone]

On Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 05:18:38PM +0200, zithro wrote:

On 02 Jun 2023 14:31, Michael Stone wrote:
I don't recommend xen for new projects. It has more pieces and tends 
to be more fragile than qemu+kvm, for no real benefits these days. 
(IMO)


Define "more pieces" and "more fragile" ?


You need to juggle kernel version, qemu version, and xen version. You 
need a bootable dom0 *as well as* a bootable xen hypervisor. If any of 
these things mismatch or stop working, things break. The xen-specific 
pieces are generally less well known and less operationally tested 
because there are fewer users. The xen developers have gone through 
several vm models and various deprecations in the past few years, and 
there have been actual breakages for users of the debian packages due to 
the many combinations of features which can break in the presence of 
changes (such as changes needed for security issues) and the difficulty 
(infeasibility?) of testing all the possible combinations. That would be 
less of an issue if rolling your own and tracking xen upstream directly, 
but this is a debian list, and the debian packages face a different set 
of constraints.



It has a really low TCB and still used by amazon for their cloud.


As a legacy service. New VMs are deployed using different technologies. 
They were the only major cloud service to go with xen, and their 
continued use seems more a matter of leaving it running for legacy 
instances being less work than migrating everything. (Which is basically 
where I still have deployed.) Amazon is also not using a xen package 
from a general purpose OS, and has quite a large team devoted to the 
care and feeding of that infrastructure. It's basically an apples to 
boxcars comparision unless the person trying to decide which hypervisor 
to go with happens to be running one of the largest clouds in the world. 
(Which begs the question of why on earth they'd be looking for answers 
on debian-user.)



You don't even need qemu if running fully virtualized guests (PV/PVH).


xen's continuing search for the next great thing 
(pv/hvm/pvhvm/pvh/pvhv2) has itself been a source of operational pain. 
From the perspective of taking the best advantage of the technology 
available at the time it's great, but from the perspective of wanting to 
set something up and just have it keep running, it's a pain. (And, to 
the point, kvm has been less of a pain because for better or worse its 
model has remained more stable.)


None of this is to say that xen is a bad project or that some people may 
find it the best option, but I'll continue to not recommended it as a 
general solution for people looking to deploy a new vm environment. It's 
just easier to go with kvm.

Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?

[Michael Stone]

On Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 05:34:58PM +0200, Mario Marietto wrote:

Excuse me,but there is something within your argumentation that I don't like
and I want to express what it is. Let's take Linux as an example of what I want
to say. Linux is well known to be an OS that can be installed on the old
machines,helping the people that can't buy a new computer to surf the net and
to do the basic things that they couldn't do using a more complete and modern
PC built with new hardware components. And this is a linux quality that
everyone loves and one of the reasons why Linux is growing faster on the
market.


This is a misunderstanding of a general purpose OS. netbsd is the 
project that supports old hardware for the sake of old hardware. Linux 
has never been that, and when the choice comes to supporting something 
old or supporting something new, the decision is generally to abandon 
the old. There's no other way to make progress. If both can coexist, 
fine--but if you want something that specifically caters to 
(functionally obsolete) hardware you need a project with that as a goal 
rather than a project that has general utility as a goal.



But,first of all,I think that there are a LOT of old PCs in the world,since
poor people aren't only a niche.


I think you underestimate the scale of the e-waste problem. Simply 
giving people better, less obsolete, hardware is (IMO) a much better use 
of resources than trying to continue to use older hardware for no real 
reason other than a desire to use really old hardware. Even just 
considering environmental consciousness, saving a 5 year old PC from the 
landfill and throwing out a 10 year old PC is a net positive in terms of 
energy efficiency if nothing else.

Re: Firefox resource utilization (was Re: A case for supporting antiquated hardware, was Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[Stefan Monnier]

> With no client-side javascript, it's not possible to change just a part of
> a web page[0]. The server must send the whole web page to be rendered by the
> client. So while it decreases CPU usage in the client, it increases network
> usage. Isn't it unethical to also "steal" more bandwidth than necessary?

Indeed, early uses of client side (Javascript) processing really helped
make web sites more efficient: for the server, the client, and the
network in between.

And then web developers realized that a browser-with-Javascript is just
a sort of VM.  So now we have "web applications" running in that VM,
where the backward/forward buttons make you leave/reenter the
application rather than move through past states of it, and you can't
use bookmarks to refer to the current state any more :-(


Stefan

Re: Firefox resource utilization (was Re: A case for supporting antiquated hardware, was Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[tomas]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 10:34:04AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 04:30:46PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > So the practice is that the whole internet dumps the whole framework
> > schtack [2] on you.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAssembly

We need better craftspeople, not better tools.

And no, I'm not actually blaming the people themselves, but an
environment which doesn't encourage that.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Firefox resource utilization (was Re: A case for supporting antiquated hardware, was Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 04:30:46PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> So the practice is that the whole internet dumps the whole framework
> schtack [2] on you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAssembly

Re: Firefox resource utilization (was Re: A case for supporting antiquated hardware, was Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[tomas]

On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 08:17:43AM -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

[...]

> With no client-side javascript, it's not possible to change just a part of a
> web page[0]. The server must send the whole web page to be rendered by the
> client. So while it decreases CPU usage in the client, it increases network
> usage. Isn't it unethical to also "steal" more bandwidth than necessary?
> 
> [0] There are frames (now deprecated) and iframes, but they only get you so
> far. And each (i)frame must be a complete html page.

This is the theory, yes. In practice, here's one example: my browser takes
roughly 12sec to "boot" our company chat app (a stripe.js monster, AFAICS).

All that to ask me whether I want to download their "native" [1] app or
"view" the thing in the browser. When I opt for the browser it continues
"booting" for a few secs.

So the practice is that the whole internet dumps the whole framework
schtack [2] on you.

Cheers

[1] An electron app. Yeah, right.
[2] A pun, not a typo.
-- 
t


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Re: bastante OFFTOPIC - celulares libres

[Darío]

> Uid de Xiaomi como el diablo a la cruz. No niego que el hardware sea bueno y 
> el precio atractivo, pero a cambio traen programas de rastreo para saber 
> hasta de que lado tienes la lengua y te manda tanta propaganda que te sale 
> por la orejas, casi pareciera como si no hubieras pagado por el teléfono y 
> tuvieras que hacerlo aguantando toneladas de propaganda, y ni siquiera trae 
> un reproductor de música decente, te lo tienes que comprar si quieres 
> escuchar música.
>
> Bueno esa es mi experiencia con esos cacharros ...
>
> El vie, 2 de jun. de 2023 11:59 a. m., Juan carlos Rebate 
>  escribió:
>
>> Los Xiaomi están muy bien de precio y buena calidad, Ami se me callo 20 
>> veces y ahí sigue, en cuanto al SO si eres algo avispado bajas el aosp bajas 
>> el kernel para el teléfono que tengas y lo compilas así te libras de google, 
>> y la app del banco la bajas de algún repositorio como apkmirror, o bien te 
>> bajas androidx86 y lo instalas en el pc y usas la app desde ahi
>>
>> El vie., 2 jun. 2023 14:08, JavierDebian  
>> escribió:
>>
>>> El 1/6/23 a las 18:58, Daniel escribió:
 Hola, Daniel de Argentina (La Plata, Bs. As.).

 Una consulta bastante offtopic, creo, aunque relacionada con Debian (y
 soft/hard libre en general):

 De testarudo uso desde siempre celular "no smart" y correo POP (con
 todos los inconvenientes y falta de opciones que eso implica) no
 obstante ser informático a medias.

 Pero resulta que ahora el banco me exige tener uno y bajar su "APP" (les
 interesa "mi experiencia de usuario y seguridad", gente muy atenta y
 sonriente) o no podré en un mes ni usar homeBanking para pagar las
 cuentas :/

 La pregunta: alguien puede recomendarme algún teléfono y SO libre (con
 base en Debian por ejemplo pero no necesariamente). Lo poco que encontré
 en la red o no lo comprendo o me huele a falso.

 Desde ya gracias

 Disculpas si no es adecuado este mensaje en esta lista (que sí otras
 veces me sacó de apuros con mi Debian) den por inválido el mensaje y
 retírenlo sin más los moderadores si es así por favor.



>>>
>>> Daniel, somos sufridos coterráneos.
>>>
>>> No, vas a tener que conseguir un "smart", todos los bancos están pasando
>>> al "token", sobre todo, los que dependen de los sistemas de Prisma (Link).
>>>
>>> No vas a conseguir celulares Ubuntu, KDE o cosa por el estilo acá en el
>>> país, salvo que lo mandes a comprar fuera.
>>> Además, esos SO no han tenido buen desempeño.
>>>
>>> Y aunque lo consigas... las "app" son para IOS o Android.
>>>
>>> Y aunque le llores y te tires al piso en el banco... no pasan bolilla.
>>>
>>> Por lo que consigue uno a tu bolsillo con Adroid.
>>> Mi recomendación de lo que hay en plaza, es un Motorola. Los Samsung se
>>> les parte la pantalla al poco, y los demás son muy caros.
>>>
>>> O pedile a algún sobrino o conocido que te pasen uno viejuno; los
>>> "jóvenes de la generación de cristal" se ponen a llorar si no lo cambian
>>> cada 2 años, "por que el Istagran no va, vistes".
>>>
>>> JAP

Buenas! también siempre preferí los teléfonos viejos, principalmente porque 
creo que tienen el tamaño perfecto, y al fin y al cabo es un teléfono, eso de 
andar mirandolo todo el tiempo no es lo mío, asique con lo básico me sobra. Y 
además dura mucho más la batería.

En estos días estuve buscando uno de esos, y por suerte aún se fabrican, pero 
lo que sí necesito que tenga es whatsapp para el trabajo. Gran sorpresa fue 
encontrar muchos de esas características con un SO libre, el KaiOS basado en 
Linux, y que soporta whatsapp y algunas pocas cosas más como facebook que no 
tengo ni tendré.

La marca es BLU, y el modelo Zoey, está muy barato acá en Argentina. También el 
Nokia 6300 4G, pero cuesta el triple.

Respecto a lo que te exige el banco, no sé si podrás utilizar la aplicación, 
aunque es extraño que te exija tal cosa. En mi caso, si tengo que hacer 
transferencias prefiero ir al cajero automático, pero no desde el teléfono, que 
también se pueden pagar las cuentas.

Saludos!
Darío

Oficina de tradução do Manual do(a) Administrador(a) Debian - 13/06 às 20h

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Olá,

A equipe de tradução do Debian para o português do Brasil [1] realizará, 
no dia 13 de junho a partir das 20h, uma oficina de tradução do Manual 
do(a) Administrador(a) Debian (The Debian Administrator's Handbook) [2].


O objetivo é mostrar aos(às) iniciantes como colaborar na tradução deste 
importante material, que existe desde 2004 e vem sendo traduzido para o 
português ao longo dos anos. Agora a tradução precisa ser atualizada 
para a versão 12 do Debian (bookworm), que será lançada este mês [3].


A ferramenta usada para traduzir o Manual é o site weblate, então você 
já pode criar sua conta e acessar o Projeto Debian Handbook [4] para se 
ambientar.


A oficina acontecerá no formato online, e o link para participar da sala 
no jitsi será divulgado no grupo debl10nptBR no telegram [5] e no canal 
#debian-l10n-br do IRC [6].


[1] https://wiki.debian.org/Brasil/Traduzir
[2] https://debian-handbook.info
[3] https://wiki.debian.org/ReleasePartyBookworm
[4] https://hosted.weblate.org/languages/pt_BR/debian-handbook/
[5] https://t.me/debl10nptBR
[6] https://webchat.oftc.net/?channels=debian-l10n-br

Abraços,

--
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Belo Horizonte - Brasil
Debian Developer
Site: http://phls.com.br
GPG ID: 0443C450


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Re: exim - bad file descriptor

[Steve]

Le 04-06-2023, à 14:30:08 +0200, Michel Verdier a écrit :


Le 4 juin 2023 Steve a écrit :


2023-06-04T06:30:54.117016+02:00 box exim[24894]: 2023-06-04 06:30:54 
1q5fOD-0006TT-2C failed to write to main log: length=91 result=-1 errno=9 (Bad 
file descriptor)
2023-06-04T06:30:54.150516+02:00 box exim[24894]: write failed on panic log: 
length=116 result=-1 errno=9 (Bad file descriptor)
jun 04 06:30:54 box.lan exim[24894]: 2023-06-04 06:30:54 1q5fOD-0006TT-2C 
failed to write to main log: length=91 result=-1 errno=9 (Bad file descriptor)
jun 04 06:30:54 box.lan exim[24894]: write failed on panic log: length=116 
result=-1 errno=9 (Bad file descriptor)


6h25 is the usual hour for cron.daily launching logrotate.
Check in /etc/logrotate.d/ if exim is reloaded/restarted after rotation.


cat /etc/logrotate.d/exim4-base
/var/log/exim4/mainlog /var/log/exim4/rejectlog {
daily
missingok
rotate 10
compress
delaycompress
notifempty
nocreate
}


cat /etc/logrotate.d/exim4-paniclog
/var/log/exim4/paniclog {
size 10M
missingok
rotate 10
compress
delaycompress
notifempty
nocreate
}

Does this help?

Re: exim - bad file descriptor

[Michel Verdier]

Le 4 juin 2023 Steve a écrit :

> 2023-06-04T06:30:54.117016+02:00 box exim[24894]: 2023-06-04 06:30:54 
> 1q5fOD-0006TT-2C failed to write to main log: length=91 result=-1 errno=9 
> (Bad file descriptor)
> 2023-06-04T06:30:54.150516+02:00 box exim[24894]: write failed on panic log: 
> length=116 result=-1 errno=9 (Bad file descriptor)
> jun 04 06:30:54 box.lan exim[24894]: 2023-06-04 06:30:54 1q5fOD-0006TT-2C 
> failed to write to main log: length=91 result=-1 errno=9 (Bad file descriptor)
> jun 04 06:30:54 box.lan exim[24894]: write failed on panic log: length=116 
> result=-1 errno=9 (Bad file descriptor)

6h25 is the usual hour for cron.daily launching logrotate.
Check in /etc/logrotate.d/ if exim is reloaded/restarted after rotation.

Re: Firefox resource utilization (was Re: A case for supporting antiquated hardware, was Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[songbird]

Max Nikulin wrote:
...
> I believe, web site creators should be blamed more aggressively than 
> browser developers for RAM requirements of contemporary web applications.

  no kidding, rather poor design in many web sites these 
days, loading and reloading images, large images for 
little purpose, videos which don't really show or say
much, etc.

  my biggest peeves in recent times is login pages which
are full of stuff (when all i want to do is login.  don't
make it a mess which takes too long to load up.  just 
let me login, ok?  grrr!) and pages which want me to 
accept their cookies but are so full of stuff if i click
too soon i get an error, so i'm having to wait a few 
moments before i can click.


  songbird

Re: Firefox resource utilization (was Re: A case for supporting antiquated hardware, was Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 04/06/2023 05:17, Bret Busby wrote:

On 4/6/23 14:32, Max Nikulin wrote:



I believe, web site creators should be blamed more aggressively than 
browser developers for RAM requirements of contemporary web applications.




That was the point that I was making - I had not, as a twisted response 
indicated, criticised Firefox regarding the misuse of resources - I 
explicitly referred to malignant web application developers (for those 
that do not understand the term, a web application is the application, 
on the web application hosting server, that the user accesses, using a 
web browser, not the web browser itself) that steal users' resources 
using client-side processing (by using malware such as javascript using 
client side processing), rather than properly and ethically using 
server-side processing, such as .jsp or Perl .cgi applications.


The problem is that some web developers (and, especially, their 
employers) offload the processing that should be done on the business 
web application hosting server, to the victim users' personal computers. 
It is a malignant exploitation, like the "gig economy".


With no client-side javascript, it's not possible to change just a part 
of a web page[0]. The server must send the whole web page to be rendered 
by the client. So while it decreases CPU usage in the client, it 
increases network usage. Isn't it unethical to also "steal" more 
bandwidth than necessary?


[0] There are frames (now deprecated) and iframes, but they only get you 
so far. And each (i)frame must be a complete html page.


And even with regards to CPU usage your model might not be so great. 
Instead of re-rendering just the part of the page that needs to be 
changed (say, the message pane in a webmail application), with no 
client-side scripting the whole interface must be re-rendered, which can 
be resource intensive. So while I'd agree that with client-side 
scripting resource usage in the client is higher, it might not be as 
higher as you think.




--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: Firefox resource utilization (was Re: A case for supporting antiquated hardware, was Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[Bret Busby]

On 4/6/23 14:32, Max Nikulin wrote:



I believe, web site creators should be blamed more aggressively than 
browser developers for RAM requirements of contemporary web applications.




That was the point that I was making - I had not, as a twisted response 
indicated, criticised Firefox regarding the misuse of resources - I 
explicitly referred to malignant web application developers (for those 
that do not understand the term, a web application is the application, 
on the web application hosting server, that the user accesses, using a 
web browser, not the web browser itself) that steal users' resources 
using client-side processing (by using malware such as javascript using 
client side processing), rather than properly and ethically using 
server-side processing, such as .jsp or Perl .cgi applications.


The problem is that some web developers (and, especially, their 
employers) offload the processing that should be done on the business 
web application hosting server, to the victim users' personal computers. 
It is a malignant exploitation, like the "gig economy".


..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Firefox resource utilization (was Re: A case for supporting antiquated hardware, was Re: A hypervisor for a headless server?)

[Max Nikulin]

On 03/06/2023 18:37, The Wanderer wrote:

On 2023-06-03 at 07:18, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 03/06/2023 17:40, The Wanderer wrote:


Hey, now. I once had a Firefox session (with "restore tabs from
previous session" enabled, and about six-to-eight windows) with
5,190 open tabs, and that computer only had 24GB of RAM.


Modern browsers supports "unloaded" tabs, so most of your tabs likely
were similar to bookmarks with page resources not loaded to RAM.


That feature was, AFAIK, first introduced in the BarTab addon which I
mentioned. So, yes, and although in hindsight I didn't state it
explicitly, I intended to convey that by mentioning that addon.


Sorry, I never used BarTab, so I was unaware that tab unloading appeared 
in this add-on earlier than in Firefox. For me an "open tab" is the one 
that is rendered, has DOM tree in memory and perhaps running JS, webasm, 
animated images and styles, so some pages may be really hungry for RAM.


Most of your tabs are just some records and will load resources from net 
when you really open them.


I appreciate that browsers limit consumed resources by unloading page 
content when a tab is not accessed for some period of time. It is great 
that users may have hundreds of tabs despite I mostly have no more than 
a couple of dozens.


I just would not call a tab "open" because I consider it as a synonym to 
"loaded". Anyway add-ons for advanced tab management hides most of them.


I believe, web site creators should be blamed more aggressively than 
browser developers for RAM requirements of contemporary web applications.



P.S. Perhaps in future tabs as UI element in browsers will be merged
with bookmarks and browsing history. The only prerequisite to better
save state of scroll position and partially filled forms.


I'm not sure quite what you're envisioning, but one reason why I keep so
many open tabs rather than using e.g. bookmarks instead is because I
want to be able to preserve forward/back history within each tab; I
don't know of any other feature that enables doing that.


Thanks, I have never considered such use case, but it is not against of 
fusing of tabs, bookmarks, and history. Your tabs are a kind of advanced 
bookmarks, a favorite nodes in browsing history graph. Current bookmark 
UI is just too limited in browsers, so tabs are more flexible and more 
convenient for you.


I mostly open new tabs to follow links (actually it is more close to 
enqueue a page for reading). That is why usefulness of forward-backward 
history is quite limited for me. Unfortunately opener is not saved for 
tabs. (I consider annotating of visited pages is more important, but it 
is another story.)


"Pure" tabs are hot cache of rendered pages where current DOM state is 
important for following interaction. Everything else are just records in 
some database. For me, tabs UI is a kind of L1 cache, a subset of pages 
closely related to the current or planned soon activity.


Of course, I do not insist that everybody should think of browser UI in 
my terms, it is just a point of view.