from:"明覺"

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:22:38 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

2009/6/22 Peter Crawford creature...@hotmail.com:

Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it?

Eventually you might find DirectFB acceptable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectFB

Lack of XDirectFB in Debian is a limitation for now.
thank you, I think DirectFB is the right direction, while X window is
a strange way for graphic system. I hope I can find a DirectFB
implementation of window system to replace gnome.

I'm afraid that you are out of lucks as DirectFB won't help your cause either
as there are VERY few programs that support it. I think that there is a media
player, image viewer and possibly a pdf viewer, but not much more. You won't
find anything similar to gnome unless you start writing it. Most gui programs
depend explicitly on xorg calls so won't run without x windows.

You are mostly limited to the console with tcsh and try to ignore the face
that
your whole startup and parts of your project management depend on sh, possibly
also perl. Some of the build procedures for you faivorite programs also
probably depend on some scripting language or other. I'm not aware of any pure
c building environment.
it doesn't matter, I have prepared to build my system from BIOS. or
even build a computer first.

regards, p. crawford

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, 明覺 wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:

明覺 writes:

yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
maintain for me.

If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.

Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that
inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've just
basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
different reasons for different languages.

EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT
purpose.
I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a
DIFFERENT purpose
Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
be C#, I guess.

The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry
wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you start
digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and
batch scripts of one sort or another.
I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I
think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a
command line console in vista.

Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
it's C/C++.

I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name sugests,
scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh which
is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as
compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make
files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (variant
of list). Vim may be ok, don't know.

You can try dos, but the startup agian depends on batch scripts.

OSx likes objectiveC more than c++, but there is also quite a bit of apple
script and it's unix behind the scene which means perl, bash, python, etc.

It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another.
There

I found that it's usually due to a whim and a bunch of buzz words. Usually
it's
the program you know, but quite often this is due to you picking your initial
language to match the programming you like. I also do find that a lot of
people, esspecially windows people BTW, tend to be narrow minded and lock into
one programming language, usually it's c++ or c#. A lot of times its' the
managers who don't know anything about programing that choose the language.
I feel very strange that you have learnt so many languages but you do
not feel bored with them. I have no words to say, maybe we are 2
different people.

are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more appropriate
and better for a job than another is.

But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it quite
clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced has
to say -- unless it's what you want to hear.

Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
 On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800
 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:
  明覺 writes:
  yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
  control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
  language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
  maintain for me.
 
  If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
  you aren't much of a programmer.  Programming is not about knowing a
  language.
 Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
 powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

 What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around.

 First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use them you'd
 know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be powerful but it
 is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that you
 would need 100s of lines of code with c.
100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?

 Don't try to kill a fly with a cannon, or to quote I don't remember who:
 c is a language that has the power of assembly and the ease of use of 
 assembly ...


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Cowley Harriswarewo...@gmail.com wrote:
This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing
here as can you run Debian without perl or python, the answer is
pretty much no.
He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he
was given. He's also started probably the most interesting thread on
this list for a while.

As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when
disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for
his opinions.

Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who
disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak
logic or a weak mind. It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or
troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to
share.

I don't agree with him that a one programming language system
would be the right way to do things or that it would lead to a
bright future of our free software world. but I'm not going to insult
him for his belief. In fact it might be a good thing that he tries
this endeavor.

Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
depends on unreasonable people. GB Shaw.

The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is
that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of
the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program
the more instructions you have per line, and yet the bugs per line
stay about the same.
The studies also show that the amount of LOC produced by programmers
of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly,
c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC increase with
level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a
major advantage.

On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different
languages can communicate in meta-programming terms, a hash-table is
a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary. The benefits
of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural
system.
thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong,
they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it,
and maybe next time I will discover it earlier.
I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming!

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, 明覺 wrote:

2009/6/23 Jeff Soules sou...@gmail.com:

I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice,
but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will
not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're
speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman.
Don't waste people's time. Ever.

yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good
advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good
advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and
trying to figure out the best way.

No, we're not figuring out the best way. All of US are telling you that
you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. You're saying, But you're
wrong and I'm right.
I give you much respect, but you give me laughing, I will not respect
you anymore, no thanks, good bye!

You talk about how different languages are just different ways to do
the same thing. Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in
English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native
Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just different ways to
say the same thing? If you don't understand them both well, you
might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language
versus the other. 飄飄何所似， 天地一沙鷗 -- in English, is it 'just the same
thing?' It's not that Chinese is just better, there are plenty of
things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the
same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you
think none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to
C/C++ -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without
lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog
in a well, saying look how small the sky is!

A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
an official programming language, then you are saying we do not need
English to be the world official language, I believe no one will
agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
languages, then you are saying everyone should learn English,
Chinese, French, oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
have to learn English.

Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every level. In
this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it beyond any boundary
of logic or common sense. Yeah, I could go into it more, but why? You'll
just say, But I'm right and you're not.

I value every good concept in every language,

No you don't. If you did, you'd understand the main message you've been
told dozens of times.

but please add that good
concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one;

Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing. You don't have to do nothing --
except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how taxes work in your
country). You make it sound like a chore to learn a new language. For a
true programmer it isn't. Learning a new language, for a real and true
programmer, is and adventure. It's a chance to approach all problems from
yet another perspective. I learned most languages in a few hours or days.
When I first started looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got it,
working with other OOP based languages was a snap. If you feel like you're
being forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field.

But after reading that line, I wonder

Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks like
you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't have to learn
languages you don't want to learn.

I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth.

or,
I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
but please do not force me to use a new one.

Nobody is forcing you to learn anything. You don't want to learn one, don't
learn it. Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job, don't be
surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one! Honestly, that you
can even talk about being forced to learn a language, that you even have
that as a concept in your brain, says even more about you. It tells us you
don't want to learn something new. It tells us you don't want to explore.
It tells us you see programming more as a chore than an art or challenge.
It also says that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a
programmer.

The way computers working
is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement

is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

 On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:57 AM, 明覺 wrote:

 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

 On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:10 PM, 明覺 wrote:

 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

 On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:00 AM, 明覺 wrote:
 ...

 Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language
 only
 system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and
 other
 are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess
 ;-)
 )

 yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people,
 I
 can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
 be optional, not necessory!

 Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though
 you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of
 certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was
 developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product
 the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free.

 cliche
 Beggers can't be choosers.
 /cliche

 you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to
 you!

 A rose by any other name is still a rose.  You can call yourself a
 chooser,
 but your actions show you to be a begger.

 Thanks for the long reply!
 I still do not think I'm a begger, as I have decided to work on the
 MikeOS, which is a assembly language programmed free OS. Of cause,
 currently I need to use Vista or Debian for everyday life, but my
 heart is on my own programmed OS, and I hope I will switch to my own
 OS after some years.

 You're a beggar.  You want what you want from other people in an easy
 format
 so they've packaged it for you.  When you're asking others for something,
 you're the beggar.  You can TRY to also be the chooser, but if that were
 the
 case, and you were a chooser, then you'd be selecting from several
 available
 choices.

 I don't agree with you, I'm just looking for some people who have the
 same thinking with me, I'm not begging from them, for they also need
 my paticipation very much.

 1) You're being literal and focusing on exact meanings, instead of
 interpreting the entire idiom.
 2) We all look at our situation and interpret it with us having the highest
 and best goals.  None of us look at ourselves as clearly as those who look
 from a distance.
I sure know my ideal is far from the reality, but I think the meaning
of life is to spend some time in realizing my ideal.



 First, when you look at what's in even just a minimal Linux install,
 there
 is no way you're ever going to get through working on more than a few
 programs in the next few years.  Second, when a programmer writes a
 program,
 if he has any wisdom (which is knowledge gained through experience,
 hence
 the more years, the more experience and the more wisdom), he will use
 the
 right tool for the right job.  For instance, I need to use mainly Perl
 and
 Java, but have used many other languages.  I find I can code 5x faster
 in
 Perl than Java and about the same, maybe better if I use Perl instead
 of
 C++.  Hardly any of my Perl code is done as a wrapper for a C or C++
 program.  It is valid code that does a LOT of work and does it well.
 Since
 it's text processing, to do the same work in C or C++ would be a
 nightmare.

 If we setup proper C/C++ library for text processing, we can reach the
 same effect as Perl, why cannot? for any piece of perl code, I believe
 I'm able to write a piece of C++ code as simple to replace it, on top
 of a proper library. It's the same for python, java and other
 languages. I worked on C# for 4 years, it's also a very efficient
 language, but I can drop it, for I know, C# is just C++ with a good
 library, the .net framework, but its cost is an additional layer, the
 .net runtime and its intermedia language.

 There are C and C++ text processing libraries.  They don't have the power
 of
 Perl or Python or other languages.  C has been around for decades and
 contributed to and worked on and used by many, MANY programmers.  These
 people have more experience than you or I and their combined experience
 is
 enormous.  If C was such a great language for doing every thing out
 there,
 and we'll use text processing as an example, why haven't these people
 released libraries that do all that Perl does already?  One answer is
 that

 good question, why haven't released those C libraries? I will release
 one in the future, I'm sure I'm able to replace perl by C, including
 change C a little, but changing C a little is much better than
 creating a new language like perl.

 When you get into writing them, I think you'll see.  Actually, it's kind of
 funny to look at this and see a young and inexperienced programmer thinking
 he's going to be able to do what many, many master programmers have never
 felt appropriate or reasonably possible.  This is one statement, of a number
 that you've made, both to me and on the Debian list, that show you really do
 not understand a number

Re: any substitute for x window system?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Norbert Zehn...@cs.dal.ca wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:22:36AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Douglas A. Tuttydtu...@vianet.ca wrote:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:58:22AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
I'm looking for a pure c/c++ programmed desktop manager, while the
xorg is depandent on perl, so i do not like it, is there any graphics
system which depands only on c/c++ to replace x window system? thanks

I think that you'll find that you need to start writing things from
scratch yourself. Since debian requires perl (e.g for debconf), you'll
be better off with NetBSD. Then, write a program in C that looks at
every non-binary file to see if what language its in.

Can you tolerate shell scripts? If not, you'll have to write a C-based
initscript. This may be easier on BSD since it doesn't use SysVinit.

Take away the ideological furvor. It would be an excellent learning
experience to rewrite, from scratch, everything in NetBSD that is not C.
It would be very hard with Debian since every time you update, you'll
have to do it all over again.
thanks, I got a better choice, the assembly language programmed OS -
MikeOS, I prefer assembly to C/C++.

So, to summarize some of your earlier posts: you want to recreate an
entire OS in C/C++ or preferably assembly, including a replication of
GUI functionality such as the one provided by X11-based desktop systems,
and you'll probably want to do this alone because you won't accept help
from somebody who says that languages that have built-in garbage
collection, powerful string processing facilities, and ways to express
high-level concepts more succinctly than C/C++ may be the better tool
for some (major) parts of the job. Well, I happily expect the release
of its first beta by 2050, by which time most of us will have spent our
lives making *meaningful* contributions in our jobs (apart from other
even more enjoyable things).

Your statement that One Microsoft Way would be okay if it was free
software just underlines that you don't understand what many posters
before have been trying to tell you. There are different tools for
different jobs. Some of my colleagues love Windows and everything else
that comes from M$. I hate it an love Linux because the latter gives me
more choice in the tools I use and allows me to be more productive. (Of
course, there's the whole stability thing and the idealism of free
software, too ;) .) Are my colleagues right? Am I right? The answer is:
both. They chose Windows because it works for them, I chose linux
because it works for me. The goal is productivity and using your time
wisely.

I know you've claimed before that all programming languages you learned
so far do the same thing. So I feel I need to put some effort into
preventing you from springing this one on me. At a low level, you are
right. They all somehow translate into native machine code. But that's
the only degree to which your statement is correct. Does C have garbage
collection? Does it have regular expressions built into the language?
Does it allow you to pass unnamed code blocks as function arguments such
as Ruby? Does it support Common Lisp's notion of a closure? Does it
support partial function application as in Haskell? The answer to all
these questions is no. Is there something you can do in these languages
that you can't do in C? No - exactly because C and many other languages
are Turing-complete. However, many things are much easier to express,
in a fraction of the lines of code, in higher-level languages than in
C/C++. And that saves time.

On that happy note, I won't waste more time on this and can only hope
that you'll wake up before you waste your entire life.

-N

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thanks for your advice! But I have decided to spend my life to develop
a one programming language system, that's my ideal.

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Nate Bargmannn...@n0nb.us wrote:
* 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com [2009 Jun 24 00:45 -0500]:
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco
Wijbengahilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote:

And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are
their own language that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or
something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a
compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language?
How are you going to build your code?
I don't know gcc uses Lisp, I thought gcc is prgrammed in C, maybe I
can use only the C programmed part of Gcc, or I can develop my own
compiler by asm if I do not like gcc.

Then get cracking. Had you spent half as much time doing some research
(the source is there, Luke) as you have done carrying on with these
silly assertions and non sequiturs you might accurately understand the
scope of your foolishness.
I can tell you now, I really do not like gcc, for it supports so many
useless languages, I surely will write my own compiler. What a pity
you are!

In case I'm wrong, get back to work, Linus!

- Nate

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html

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Re: any substitute for x window system?

2009/6/24 Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com:


 thanks for your advice! But I have decided to spend my life to develop
 a one programming language system, that's my ideal.

 What kind of advice are you looking for? One that agrees with you? If
 so, I think you've received it (buried in the mass amount of
 responses, no doubt).

 1) it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
  -yes and you were offered various suggestions, but of course
 there is X that must be dealt with. So, you can have you wm/de without
 a GUI . . . yikes!

 2) any substitute for x window system?
   - not at the moment. That is, there are none out there now. So,
 you're welcome to develop one yourself/ Although, there is really no
 need for one with regard to your project.

 3) (In general) is it possible to have an OS independent of everything
 non-C/C++?
   - yes (with various qualifications)

 Other than that, I see no reason for you to continue this discussion
 (here, anyway), for you received responses from many, many folks and
 you have not provided any more/new insight into your project. We've
 simply read that you have it over and over (along with redundant
 advice). You have your ideals and appear to be quite steadfast about
 them. Again, I wish you luck.
I have ended the discussion, but you continued it again, please take
back your reply, I do not need your summary.




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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Dale Harrisrod...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:45:45PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong,
 they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it,
 and maybe next time I will discover it earlier.
 I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming!

 There is one language for all computer programming, it's the machine language.
 Everything reduces to that.  It's all a bunch of ones and zeros.

 But then are you running on an Intel based platform, MIPS, ARM?  Oh darn,
 different assembly languages.

 Face it, now speaking in metaphor, trying to insist on a hammer when you
 need a screwdriver will just make your life a living hell.  You must be
 adaptable.
you do not understand me, and I've been tired to explain my thoughts. thanks.

 --
 Dale Harris
 rod...@maybe.org
 rod...@gmail.com
 /.-)


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Re: any substitute for x window system?

2009/6/24 Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com:
 2009/6/24 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
 2009/6/24 Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com:


 thanks for your advice! But I have decided to spend my life to develop
 a one programming language system, that's my ideal.

 What kind of advice are you looking for? One that agrees with you? If
 so, I think you've received it (buried in the mass amount of
 responses, no doubt).

 1) it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?
  -yes and you were offered various suggestions, but of course
 there is X that must be dealt with. So, you can have you wm/de without
 a GUI . . . yikes!

 2) any substitute for x window system?
   - not at the moment. That is, there are none out there now. So,
 you're welcome to develop one yourself/ Although, there is really no
 need for one with regard to your project.

 3) (In general) is it possible to have an OS independent of everything
 non-C/C++?
   - yes (with various qualifications)

 Other than that, I see no reason for you to continue this discussion
 (here, anyway), for you received responses from many, many folks and
 you have not provided any more/new insight into your project. We've
 simply read that you have it over and over (along with redundant
 advice). You have your ideals and appear to be quite steadfast about
 them. Again, I wish you luck.
 I have ended the discussion, but you continued it again, please take
 back your reply, I do not need your summary.

 . . . . then stop responding to every response (including this one).
 Also, expect more to come.

 Oh ya . . . I take back my reply.
good






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Goodbye debian

I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
Only One Programming Lanuguage way.
Good bye! :)

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:35 PM, 明覺 wrote:

2009/6/23 Napoleon rri0...@attglobal.net:

明覺 wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:

明覺 writes:

yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take
full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard
to
maintain for me.

If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for
you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.

Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

What you haven't learned is there are different languages FOR A REASON!
No one language is best for everything. For instance - I can code
web pages in C/C++ - but it is much faster for me to do it in PHP, Perl
or Java. The same is true with anything else.

I've got over 40 years of programming experience; in that time I've
forgotten more languages than you have ever learned. Some no longer
even exist. But every one of them had certain advantages and
disadvantages - and those differences were a major reason why the
languages were chosen for their particular projects.

You don't like the way different languages handle strings - well, guess
what. If they all did everything the same way, they wouldn't be
different languages!

To be blunt (like others) - so you don't like the fact different
languages are being used on your system. There is no way you're going
to be able to rewrite all that code in C/C++ in your lifetime.

So you have two choices. You can accept that fact and continue to
learn, using the tools available to you, no matter what language, just
like the rest of us do.

Or, you can continue to bitch about it and make yourself miserable. In
this case, I suggest you try another profession - if you can't get over
this little bit, you are not suited to be a programmer. This will just
be the first of many frustrations for you.

And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, but
if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to you -
for ANY post, even when you're asking for help.

I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

I don't know if your culture is aware of the story of The Boy Who Cried
Wolf, but you might want to look it up and see what it says. The main
point is that if people get used to seeing your emails following a pattern,
after a while, they're not going to bother to read the same comments and
lines of reasoning over and over if they have never found them interesting
in the past.
I think I'm talking about something interesting and serious, I hope
there will be someone who is also interested in my thoughts, for those
who ignore my questions, I can understand, not everyone will agree
with me.

Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Frank Lin PIATfp...@klabs.be wrote:
 On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 17:40 +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:
  On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
  I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
  python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
  reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
  and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
  manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
  thanks
 
  Let's throw some data into this discussion:
 [..]
  Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without
  debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one.

 I have quickly analyzed the files in my /usr/bin:
  235 shell script
  71 python programs
  241 perl programs
  986 ELF programs

 So does it mean debian determines
 the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some
 distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks

 Which company would hire a programmer that is unwilling to learn/use
 anything but C/C++? Your employability is low, and it will get lower and
 lower.

 Sorry for telling you the truth, but you can't live in a world with only
 C/C++
I'm looking for a job, and the title of my resume is Asm, C, C++
programmer, if I can find a job, I win; if I cannot, you win. :)

 Franklin





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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Richard Hectorrich...@walnut.gen.nz wrote:
 On Mon, 2009-06-22 at 12:21 -0400, Hal Vaughan wrote:
 On Jun 22, 2009, at 8:00 AM, 明覺 wrote:
 ...

 
  cliche
  Beggers can't be choosers.
  /cliche
  you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging
  to you!

 A rose by any other name is still a rose.  You can call yourself a
 chooser, but your actions show you to be a begger.

 Many people would say the same about people like me who refuse to have
 any more dealings than necessary with Windows.

 There's room for people with ideals.

 IIRC RMS prefers software to be written in C (not C++; they're different
 languages) for similar reasons.
thank you for the information, but I like C++ for its object oriented,
maybe it's because i'm too influenced by C# and .net framework; but
for bottom and startup code, I'd prefer asm and C.

 Richard



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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Jochen Schulzm...@well-adjusted.de wrote:
明覺:

thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's
just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
C/C++.

This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about higher
order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even dare
dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a
dynamic type is just a memory type.
I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to
integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language,
which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux
is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I
choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and
avoid all the overlappings among different languages.
to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only complaint
is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored procedures)
is not even turing complete!
I surely dare to complain sql, it's a programming languge with all the
general functions such as string processing, can't you hear the
complaint from most programmers? microsoft has even replaced sql
programming by .net framework. If you think I complain sql and other
languages just because they are unlike C, you are too hard to
communicate with.

If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they don't add
anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand them.

J.
--
Nothing is as I planned it.
[Agree] [Disagree]
http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Lisi Reiszlisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 明覺 wrote:
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel like
it?
I only suggest you not ignore my quetsion, of cause you can deny my suggestion.
b) Debian user? But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian is
written and are switching over to MikeOS. Be our guest.
Well, I dislike microsoft, but I'm using Vista; I dislike perl and
python in debian, but I'm using debian; I dislike the web browser in
gNewSense, but I'm using gNewSense.

I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are
grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very,
very grateful to the developers.
Being grateful doesn't mean I agree with them totally, it's a so simple logic.

Lisi

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith
Jr.b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 20090623111601.gp19...@wasteland.homelinux.net, Jochen Schulz wrote:
明覺:
 thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
 tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's
 just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
 C/C++.

This is plain wrong.
How do you do closures in C/C++?

 Function-objects. (Examples in STL.)

What about higher
order functions,

 Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I
 think; In Boost anyway.)

pattern matching,

 That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ using
 templates) or slowly and painfully.

dynamic typing?

 Bah.  As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to be
 static.  Type errors should be detected before run time.  [I'm only willing
 to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)]

 Still.  C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite
 unfortunate, but are language choices.  In comparision, it would be fairly
 impossible to do weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too.

 I don't agree with the OP, though.  Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and
 Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually a
 lot) of man-hours.  CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs at
 those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into
 C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages.

 I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and
 Lisp.  teaseOnly *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
 languages. ;)/tease
Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.
 --
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 b...@iguanasuicide.net   ((_/)o o(\_))
 ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Henning
Follmannhfollm...@itcfollmann.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:39:53AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:
 
 [...]
  Boy, I didn't realize that by junior programmer you meant you were that
  inexperienced in the field.  I don't know if you realize that you've just
  basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
  different reasons for different languages.
 
  EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFERENT
  purpose.
 I will give an example to deny your opinion - a DIFFERENT tool with a
 DIFFERENT purpose
 Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
 to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
 the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
 be C#, I guess. Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
 it's C/C++.

 Oh boy, I call BS!
 linq by no means replaces sql. It maybe a layer on top of (also) sql.
 But even the .NET (NOT c#!!) is not coherent. An MS does not gravitate only 
 to c#.
Linq is to replace sql from the bottom, select ... from... where has
been a part of the C#(.net framework) language itself, and there is
even a more formal way to write the select...from...where in C#, not
on top of anything else, even store procedure for sql server can be
programmed and deployed in C# already.

 [...]

 --
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 it consultant  | www.itcfollmann.com


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with
the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or
memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting
problem you can think of solving with computers?
Yes, I myself won't be able to do all the work, but if there are many
people agree with me, and we work together to realize an only one
programming language system, that will be a bright future of our free
software world.

You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would
accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people
over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it is
unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their ideas
are at least worth considering.
no, I don't consider the number of people and the length of time a
situation exists, I just consider whether it's the right way to do
things.

thank you for the advice!

Good luck.

~Jeff Soules

2009/6/22 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:
明覺 writes:
yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
maintain for me.

If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.
Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
--
John Hasler

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco
Wijbengahilco.wijbe...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/6/21 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?

(This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just
this initial email.)

FYI:
perl: C program
python: C program
(ba)sh: C program
ruby: C program
sed: C program
awk: C program
the list continues...

What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No
more internet? :-)
Of course I will use all of them, I even use windows vista everyday
for playing games, that's my user role; for my programmer role, I will
use Xml and html, for they are data files, not programming languages,
I will try to write my own brower in C++, and use a subset of C++ to
be the dhtml programming language instead of javascript.

On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know
before you know your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29)
is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To
quote some more from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code:

A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
known as Potato); this version of Linux was originally released in
August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
develop.

Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)
why don't you ask this question to debian or Bill Gates when they just
started their work? Is microsoft built by the one person Bill Gates?
Is bebian developed by the one person Ian?

Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life.

Cheers,
Hilco

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Micha Feiginmi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:21:22 -0400
Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com wrote:

...

I'm being blunt, but, honestly, I run a business on custom software
I've written and I can do it because I learned from those who knew
more than I did. If I refused to learn from people on this and other
lists, I'd be an idiot and would still be wasting most of my life at
the keyboard. I found one can save days, weeks, months, or even
years, by listening to those with experience. You don't seem to want
to listen to the experience of many.

Learn from other people's errors, you don't have time to make them all
yourself ;-)

Like others said, learn whats the right tool for the job, do the jobs you feel
like and leave the others to the ones who like other jobs better. Don't
forget to live.
Like I like to say, I'm more scared of not living than of dying. I hope you
can
figure out the meaning ...
I also find that messing about in languages I know nothing about tought me
also
about those I do know something about and also tought me what I don't want to
do and what I'm wasting my time on with the wrong tool

That's fine, but don't come crying to us in 3-4 years when you realize
how much time you've wasted with such a capricious fetish.

I'm still claiming that the world would have been a better place if computers
hadn't been invented, or at least if user interface (cli, gui, whatever) has
never been invented, and the more I learn the more I'm convinced on that
matter ;-)

I used to be more of a purist like you but after going through, c, c++, java,
matlab, perl, fortran (yes it's still alive and kicking ...), assembly, basic,
pascal, logo, lisp and I don't know how many others I came to the concultion
that if I can save three weeks programing, let the program run a couple of
days
instead of a couple of hours (assuming it needs to be run once or twice) and
go
out to date my wife, mountain bike, kite surf, watch the sunset or whatever,
I'm much better of and sociaty is not the worst of it.
If I do not change the reality, I will suffer till I'm dying; If I try
to change the reality, maybe i will just suffer 20 years, and rest for
my last 20 years.

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
 and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
 manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
 thanks

 Let's throw some data into this discussion:

 LXDE is a rather minimalistic desktop. IceWM is an example of a
 resonable (not-so-bloated) window manager.

 $ aptitude why lxde perl
 i   lxde   Depends xarchiver
 i A xarchiver  Depends libpango1.0-0 (= 1.20.3)
 i A libpango1.0-0  Depends libpango1.0-common (= 1.20.5-3+lenny1)
 i A libpango1.0-common Depends defoma (= 0.11.1)
 i A defoma Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16)

 $ aptitude why icewm perl
 i   icewm   Depends libfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0)
 i A libfontconfig1  Depends fontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3)
 i A fontconfig-conf Depends ttf-dejavu | ttf-bitstream-vera |
 ttf-freefont | gsf
 ig  onts-x11
 i A ttf-freefontDepends defoma
 i A defoma  Depends perl (= 5.6.0-16)

 So on the client side the dependency is basically due to defoma (DEbian
 FOnts MAnager).


 On the server side:

 $ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl
 i A xserver-xorg  Dependsxserver-xorg-core (= 2:1.4-3)
 i A xserver-xorg-core Dependslibdbus-1-3 (= 1.0.2)
 i A libdbus-1-3   Recommends dbus
 i A dbus  Dependsadduser
 i   adduser   Suggests   perl-modules
 i   perl-modules  Dependsperl (= 5.10.0-1)

 In this case we don't have a strict dependency. Not even a
 recommendation. 'adduser' preffers to have a more complete perl
 installation around.


 But, well, this is slightly the wrong question (or the right. Depending
 on how you think about it). 'perl' and 'perl-modules' include most of
 the bloat of the perl package that should not get into the base system.
 If we slightly rephrase the question, to satisfy the purists:

 $ aptitude why lxde perl-base
 i   lxde  Depends lxde-core (= 0.3.2.1+svn20080509-5)
 i A lxde-core Depends pcmanfm (= 0.3.9.5)
 i A pcmanfm   Depends hal
 i A hal   Depends adduser
 i   adduser   Depends perl-base (= 5.6.0)

 $ aptitude why icewm perl-base
 i   icewm Dependslibfontconfig1 (= 2.4.0)
 i A libfontconfig1Dependsfontconfig-config (= 2.6.0-3)
 i A fontconfig-config Dependsucf (= 0.29)
 i A ucf   Dependsdebconf (= 1.5.19)
 i   debconf   PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4)

 Or to make things clear:

 $ aptitude why xserver-xorg perl-base
 i A xserver-xorg Dependsdebconf (= 0.5) | debconf-2.0
 i   debconf  PreDepends perl-base (= 5.6.1-4)

 Debconf needs perl. And you won't have much of a Debian system without
 debconf. I wouldn't try removing that one.

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thank you for the perfect analysis! so does it mean debian determines
the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some
distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
thveillon.debianthveillon.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
Sebastian Günther wrote:
* 明�X (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
thanks

# apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)

should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can
decide wether you can live without them.

Sebastian

But aren't perl or python packages just metapackages acting like
glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
will have any effect on the libs already installed.
And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
stuff ?
yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
me.

aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pretty
low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but
were dragged in as dependencies.

Looks like a strange idea to me to run a one programming language only
system, it would hint that there's a one fits all language and other
are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
yes, currently, I'm almost a one programming language only people, I
can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
be optional, not necessory!

Tom

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/22 Sebastian Günther sam...@guenther-roetgen.de:
 * 明覺 (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 05:33]:
 I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
 programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
 programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
 able to modify them someday in the future. thanks

 Well that is not very broadminded...

 And you should, as a programmer, at least have a little knowledge of the
 most common programming languages. And knowledge of *all* programming
 paradigmas, which would also include declarative languages.

 BTW: perl and python are not that hard to learn or read, since their
 main purpose was to help sysadmins to get their jobs done. And mostly
 they are not programming gurus...
yes, they are not hard to learn, but if to learn it, it's a waste of
time for me! they just make wrappers for C libraries, I do not like
that!

 Sebastian

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:40:20PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:

 So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl?

 Python? Python is not a dependency. perl-base is. perl is, to a lesser
 extent.
gnome depends on python, if other desktop manager doesn't depend on
it, I will switch to that one.

 could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or
 python? thanks

 What's your problem with using perl? This is not a rethorical question.
 Do you have an issue of performance? Disk space? Memory usage? Can you
 provide some more details about your application?
no problem with perl, I just want to keep my system simple so that I
will be able to modify them someday in the future, without learning
any other programming languages.
thanks

 --
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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/22 Sebastian Günther sam...@guenther-roetgen.de:
 On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:40:20 +0800
 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:



 thank you for the perfect analysis! so does it mean debian determines
 the use of python and perl? could you help recommend some
 distributions that do not need perl or python? thanks


 I do not know any distribution, that does not depend on perl or python.
 But you could achieve your goal with linux from scratch.
Yes, that's what I'm thinking about, but before that, I should make
some searching, maybe some one else have the same thoughts with me and
have made a distribution in that way already.

 Sebastian


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:24 PM,
thveillon.debianthveillon.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
明�X wrote:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
thveillon.debianthveillon.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
Sebastian Günther wrote:
* 明�X (shi.min...@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
thanks

# apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)

should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can
decide wether you can live without them.

Sebastian

Well, there's always Mike OS, it's assembly language only, with C
library and api to write C code for it... If that's minimalistic enough
for you, at least you won't be bothered by Perl or Python ! (but the guy
doing Mike OS, Mike Saunders, is also writing Python columns for
LinuxFormat magazine... There's tools for every job).

http://mikeos.berlios.de/
thank you very much, I also like assembly programming, that's the
right distribution for me!

Cheers,

Tom

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Eduardo M
KALINOWSKIedua...@kalinowski.com.br wrote:
 On Seg, 22 Jun 2009, 明覺 wrote:

 I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
 programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
 programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
 able to modify them someday in the future. thanks

 If you don't want to learn Perl or Python, then simply don't. You don't have
 to know the language to run programs written in it, and you don't need to
 have plans to modify the programs in order to use them.

 Having them installed and running them will not distract you in your quest
 to learn C. And quite a lot of programs are written in those languages (or
 others beyond C/C++).
yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take
full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those
other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be
hard to maintain for me. thanks


 --
 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
 edua...@kalinowski.com.br


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Eduardo M
KALINOWSKIedua...@kalinowski.com.br wrote:
On Seg, 22 Jun 2009, 明覺 wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Eduardo M
KALINOWSKIedua...@kalinowski.com.br wrote:

If you don't want to learn Perl or Python, then simply don't. You don't
have
to know the language to run programs written in it, and you don't need to
have plans to modify the programs in order to use them.

Having them installed and running them will not distract you in your
quest
to learn C. And quite a lot of programs are written in those languages
(or
others beyond C/C++).

yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take
full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those
other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be
hard to maintain for me. thanks

If you want to follow this approach, then I think you facing it from the
wrong perpective: if you want to be able to understand the source of all
programs in a typical Linux system and be able to modify them, limiting
yourself to C/C++ is not going to get you much further.

If you want that, you should at least become somewhat familiar with other
languages -- at least the ones that are widely used such as Perl, Python,
shell scripting... (you may actually skip Lisp, Lua, Ruby, Brainfuck and
others for now).

And it's not that hard. Perl and Python, for example, follow essentially the
same procedural model as C. The syntax has some differences, the built-in or
library functions available are different (but again, share some
similarities, especially Perl and C), but the paradigm is the same. If you
can speak C/C++ well, it should not be difficult to pick up other procedural
languages. And it will do you no bad, on the opposite, can help you a lot.

Learning, say, Lisp (or one of its derivatives) or Haskell (or another
functional programming language) can take more time (but is good anyway).
But these aren't so widely used.
I know your opinion is the behalf of many programmers, maybe also
advanced programmers, but my opinion is not the same. Though I'm a
junior programmer in C/C++, I also haved learned many programming
languages --- C#, sql, javascript, xslt, python(yes, I learned it).
When I was using sql, I complained that why sql not use the same
string processing functions as C#; when I was learning javascript, I
made the same complaint; when I was learning xslt, I complained once
more; and when I was lastly learning python, I became so angry, why
all these languages do the same thing but with a different funtion
name? I hate it!
So I decide I won't learn any other language, I will only use
C/C++(and assembly if necessory) in the future, I cannot bare the
waste of time those scripts languages bring to us programmers any
more.
thanks

--
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edua...@kalinowski.com.br

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Michael Ekstrandmich...@elehack.net wrote:
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com writes:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Tzafrir Cohentzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:40:20PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:

So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl?

Python? Python is not a dependency. perl-base is. perl is, to a lesser
extent.
gnome depends on python, if other desktop manager doesn't depend on
it, I will switch to that one.

could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or
python? thanks

What's your problem with using perl? This is not a rethorical question.
Do you have an issue of performance? Disk space? Memory usage? Can you
provide some more details about your application?
no problem with perl, I just want to keep my system simple so that I
will be able to modify them someday in the future, without learning
any other programming languages.
thanks

I like the mindset of wanting to be able to modify the programs on your
computer. Truly, this is the heart of running a Free Software operating
system. It is excellent to see a user elevating that desire so high.

Unfortunately for your other constraints, you will be unable to achieve
the goal of a Perl-free system with most distributions. Many software
developers work in Perl or Python so that they can produce good software
much more quickly than writing everything by hand in C; I choose OCaml
myself for this very reason. Perl is used for some of the base glue
that holds Debian together. Even Gentoo, one of the most customizable
distributions around short of LFS, used Python for its package manager
last I knew. And even in LFS land, you will definitely have shell
scripts, and if you go far enough with it will need Perl and perhaps M4
programs to get things working (IIRC some of the Autotools suite
requires Perl).
thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called learning, it's
just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
C/C++.
thanks

So while the goal of being able to modify anything is good, I do not
think it is achievable with the constraint of only C or C++ with
presently-available Linux distributions.

You might try FreeBSD. Perl and Python are not installed in the base
system; everything in its base system is C, C++, shell/sed/awk, or Make.
Perl and Python will only be installed when you start installing
additional software from its Ports collection that require them.

- Michael

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/22 Osamu Aoki os...@debian.org:
 Hi,

 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it?

 Not yet until you help us writing system commands in C/C++.
I would like this task if I'm able to do it :)

 I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
 and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
 manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
 thanks

 Desktop uses many of these.  But even update-alternatives command for
 bare bone install requires perl.  (Debian is relatively free from python
 script for its system programs.)

 update-alternatives is written in perl. It is part of dpkg.  This is as
 fundamental as it can get to.




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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:
 明覺 writes:
 yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
 control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
 language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
 maintain for me.

 If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
 you aren't much of a programmer.  Programming is not about knowing a
 language.
Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
 --
 John Hasler


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/22 Peter Crawford creature...@hotmail.com:

 Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it?

 Eventually you might find DirectFB acceptable.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectFB

 Lack of XDirectFB in Debian is a limitation for now.
thank you, I think DirectFB is the right direction, while X window is
a strange way for graphic system. I hope I can find a DirectFB
implementation of window system to replace gnome.

 regards,   p. crawford


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:04 AM, Nate Bargmannn...@n0nb.us wrote:
* 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com [2009 Jun 22 10:00 -0500]:
2009/6/22 Osamu Aoki os...@debian.org:
Hi,

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it?

Not yet until you help us writing system commands in C/C++.
I would like this task if I'm able to do it :)

So far you have carefully avoided the mention of shell commands, do you
prefer Bash/sh, C shell, or Korn Shell? BTW, you should select C shell
for obvious reasons and be sure to purge Bash/sh from your system. ;-)
good advice, i will do that after I removed perl and python from my system.

BTW, programming languages are simply tools and while each has their
best area of applicability, This thread is as ridiculous as an
argument over whether a hammer, pliers, or screwdriver is the more
pure tool. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything
begins to look like a nail.
I do not think so, every language is a set of hammer, plier and
screwdriver in my eyes, we just need one.

But, since you seem intent on trolling this list with my way or the
highway type of thinking, I'm posting this in the hopes of not
confusing anyone who may read this thread later than for your
edification.
I believe readers of this thread are all advanced programmers, they
won't be confusing.

- Nate

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html

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Re: any substitute for x window system?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Douglas A. Tuttydtu...@vianet.ca wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:58:22AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 I'm looking for a pure c/c++ programmed desktop manager, while the
 xorg is depandent on perl, so i do not like it, is there any graphics
 system which depands only on c/c++ to replace x window system? thanks

 I think that you'll find that you need to start writing things from
 scratch yourself.  Since debian requires perl (e.g for debconf), you'll
 be better off with NetBSD.  Then, write a program in C that looks at
 every non-binary file to see if what language its in.

 Can you tolerate shell scripts?  If not, you'll have to write a C-based
 initscript.  This may be easier on BSD since it doesn't use SysVinit.

 Take away the ideological furvor.  It would be an excellent learning
 experience to rewrite, from scratch, everything in NetBSD that is not C.
 It would be very hard with Debian since every time you update, you'll
 have to do it all over again.
thanks, I got a better choice, the assembly language programmed OS -
MikeOS, I prefer assembly to C/C++.

 Enjoy.

 Doug.


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/23 Napoleon rri0...@attglobal.net:
明覺 wrote:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:
明覺 writes:
yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
maintain for me.
If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.
Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

You don't like the way different languages handle strings - well, guess
what. If they all did everything the same way, they wouldn't be
different languages!

To be blunt (like others) - so you don't like the fact different
languages are being used on your system. There is no way you're going
to be able to rewrite all that code in C/C++ in your lifetime.

So you have two choices. You can accept that fact and continue to
learn, using the tools available to you, no matter what language, just
like the rest of us do.

And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, but
if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to you -
for ANY post, even when you're asking for help.
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan h...@halblog.com:

On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, 明覺 wrote:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Haslerjhas...@debian.org wrote:

明覺 writes:

If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.

Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.

It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another. There
are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more appropriate
and better for a job than another is.

But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it quite
clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced has
to say -- unless it's what you want to hear.

Hal

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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Cybe R.
Wizardcybe_r_wiz...@earthlink.net wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:18:34 +0800
明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:

I do not think so, every language is a set of hammer, plier and
screwdriver in my eyes, we just need one.

Having used a lot of those, Swiss Army Knife, kinds of tools I can
tell you that they are absolute junk and will prefer a single-purpose
tool every time.

I believe readers of this thread are all advanced programmers, they
won't be confusing.

I am not any kind of programmer but certainly see the wisdom of those
who have told you already that you are on a wrong path.
See here:
http://www.cprogramming.com/langs.html
This page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language
explains very well. Here's one quote:

Although there have been attempts to design one universal
computer language that serves all purposes, all of them have failed to
be generally accepted as filling this role.

On the whole, your take on all t his reminds me strongly of the .sig
found below:

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Their address sums up their attitude: One Microsoft Way.
Winduhs

One Microsoft Way is perfect if all the microsoft softwares are free as LGPL.

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is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-21 Thread 明覺

I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
thanks


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Re: is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

2009-06-21 Thread 明覺

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Kamaraju S
Kusumanchiraju.mailingli...@gmail.com wrote:
 明覺 wrote:

 I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
 python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
 reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
 and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
 manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
 thanks

 How does having python, perl installed will affect your c/c++ programmes? I
 am just curious.
I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
able to modify them someday in the future. thanks

 raju
 --
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 http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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any substitute for x window system?

2009-06-21 Thread 明覺

I'm looking for a pure c/c++ programmed desktop manager, while the
xorg is depandent on perl, so i do not like it, is there any graphics
system which depands only on c/c++ to replace x window system? thanks

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Re: Configuring preferred web browser with Icedove

2009-06-07 Thread 明覺

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Andrei Popescuandreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun,07.Jun.09, 21:03:26, AG wrote:
 Hello List

 How does one configure Icedove (Thunderbird) to use the system's default
 browser.  My system's default browser is Opera, but Icedove will always
 call up Konqueror and I cannot see any obvious way to change that ...
 even advanced config doesn't seem to show any options.

 Make sure Opera is indeed your default browser:

 update-alternatives --configure x-www-browser
thanks, but it should be update-alternatives --config x-www-browser, :)

 Regards,
 Andrei
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Re: 64Bit installation on a 500 GB Sata DRIVE

2009-06-03 Thread 明覺

2009/6/3 Frank Lin PIAT fp...@klabs.be:
 On Wed, 2009-06-03 at 13:51 +0800, 明覺 wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Rod James Bio rju...@gmail.com wrote:
  We've been doing an installation on this LTSP Server we are trying to
  build. While formatting the 500 GB HD the partitioning
  process is stock at 33%.

 Yes, hardware failure (hard disk or memory).
 Go to your hard-disk manufacturer website, download the tool to test the
 harddisk, then run the test.
 Then use memtest to test your memory.

 What's your motherboard chipset? Is your SATA controller configured in
 AHCI or Compatibility mode ? (try switching to the other)

  Anyway just for additional information:
  I tried using lenny 64bit installer to no avail and 32bit installation is
  successful but we want to use 64bit because the machine has 5GB of memory 
  so
  as to maximize the memory.

 FYI, Debian i386 has a kernel flavor named bigmem, which supports up to
 64GB (PAE see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension )

 But unless you have a specific need to use stick to 32bit kernel
 (driver, old application [in]compatibility), it is wise to move to
 64bits.

 I donot have experience in it, if I encountered this problem, I would
 try to use the gNewSense livecd to partition the harddisk, and after
 that, install the 64bit debian. here is the gNewSense livecd,
 http://www.gnewsense.org/index.php?n=Main.Download

 1. No FUD please. Debian-installer's partman works.
ok, it works
 2. Formating with another tool is unlikely to help (because you still
   have to proceed through the installation)
why unlikely to help? he said it's the debian formating failed, of
cause we can try formating it by another tool and then install debian
without formating.
 3. Debian has it's own DebianLive CD
good, I hope i can be as good as the gNewSense one.



 Regards,

 Franklin





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Re: ed 1.33 install errors

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Douglas A. Tutty dtu...@vianet.ca wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 09:13:47PM -0400, Rob Bochan wrote:
 On Monday 01 June 2009 08:53:19 pm Jude DaShiell wrote:
  Script started on Mon Jun  1 20:50:14 2009
  localhost:~# aptitude install ed
...
  update-alternatives: error: alternative path /bin/ed doesn't exist.
  dpkg: error processing ed (--configure):
subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status
  2 Errors were encountered while processing:
ed
  E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)

 I got the same error here. I fixed it by creating a symlink from /usr/bin/ed
 to /bin/ and that cleared it up. I'd imagine it's a bug in the package.


thank you, I solved it by this way.

 Considering that the main use of ed is either for scripted editing or
 for editing when ncurses (or gui) isn't working, the bug is probably
 having it in /usr/bin instead of /bin.  In Lenny, its in /bin (at least
 on my box).  I would argue that another bug is that its not statically
 linked but Debian doesn't seem to worry about having basic stuff static
 and refer people to a live CD for system rescue.

 Doug.


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Re: package locally compiled gets upgraded

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:30 AM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 20090602162813.ga24...@fantomas.sk, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
I tried to locally recompile package wwwoffle because of some bugs in
 it. I have not changed the version hoping that the same version prevents
 apt from upgrading it.

However apt runs upgrade while reinstalling the same version of package.
Is there any way to tune this behaviour?

I haven't changed the version so if any new version appeared in archive, I
want to have it upgraded...

 Alter the version number, but use something really small so the next
 version uploaded by a DD will trump yours.

 e.g. If the bugs are in a native package version 1.2.3, make your version
 1.2.3local1

but why the apt-upgrade reinstall the same version of  a package?


 e.g. If the bugs are in a non-native package (I think wwwoffle is non-
 native) version 1.2-2lenny1, make your version 1.2-2lenny1local1.

 (If you end up needing to add more changes, you can increment the number
 following local.)  You can always test how the packaging system will sort
 version numbers by using:
 dpkg --compare-versions version_1 lt version_2; echo $?
 (0 = true; 1 = false)

 Alternatively, you could probably do version-pinning via origin, but I'm not
 sure about the specifics of that.
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Re: package locally compiled gets upgraded

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Matus UHLAR - fantomas
uh...@fantomas.sk wrote:
 Hello,

 I tried to locally recompile package wwwoffle because of some bugs in it.
 I have not changed the version hoping that the same version prevents apt
 from upgrading it.

 However apt runs upgrade while reinstalling the same version of package.
 Is there any way to tune this behaviour?

 I haven't changed the version so if any new version appeared in archive, I
 want to have it upgraded...

I have an idea, you first install the package from official debian
source, and keep it there, then install your fixed version(with the
same version number) by --prefix=/usr to overwrite the fault one, is
that clever? :)


 --
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 Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
 Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
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Re: ed 1.33 install errors

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 200906021043.59937@iguanasuicide.net, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
In 20090602133233.ga7...@blitz.hooton, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
I would argue that another bug is that its not statically
linked.
We do have busybox-static which provides a statically-linked
 version of a lot of utilities -- enough to recover from most situations
 with enough effort.

 In particular, it has a statically-linked 'ed' and 'vi'.
I do not understand why this issue is related with static linking or
dynamic linking, now I'm wondering is it proper for me to add the link
/bin/ed which points to /usr/bin/ed? if not proper, should I remove
the link made by me? (I found that ed was upgrade again today, maybe
to fix the bug)
thanks!
 --
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Re: ed 1.33 install errors

I found that today's upgrade of ed removed the link made by me, and
moved ed from /usr/bin to /bin, so I guess that the packager just made
a mistake to put ed into /usr/bin yestoday.

2009/6/3 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
 On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
 b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 200906021043.59937@iguanasuicide.net, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
In 20090602133233.ga7...@blitz.hooton, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
I would argue that another bug is that its not statically
linked.
We do have busybox-static which provides a statically-linked
 version of a lot of utilities -- enough to recover from most situations
 with enough effort.

 In particular, it has a statically-linked 'ed' and 'vi'.
 I do not understand why this issue is related with static linking or
 dynamic linking, now I'm wondering is it proper for me to add the link
 /bin/ed which points to /usr/bin/ed? if not proper, should I remove
 the link made by me? (I found that ed was upgrade again today, maybe
 to fix the bug)
 thanks!
 --
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Re: today's upgrade error: dpkg: error processing ed

2009/6/3 Paul Scott pasl...@ultrasw.com:
 Paul Scott wrote:
 明覺 wrote:

 today's upgrade has the following error:
 ---
 Setting up ed (1.3-2) ...
 install-info(/usr/share/info/ed.info.gz): no file /usr/share/info/dir,
 retrieving backup file /var/backups/infodir.bak.
 update-alternatives: error: alternative path /bin/ed doesn't exist.
 dpkg: error processing ed (--configure):
  subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 2

 Processing triggers for menu ...
 Errors were encountered while processing:
  ed
 E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
 ---
 does it matter? if yes,  how to solve it? thanks



 If you had been using apt-listbugs you would have been warned that it
 would be fixed in the next version.

 How to fix this is mentioned on this list also.

 I also found that today's upgrade of ed fixed the bug, thank you for
fixing it so quickly!


 HTH,



 The fixed version (1.3-4) is now in sid.

 Paul




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Re: 64Bit installation on a 500 GB Sata DRIVE

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Rod James Bio rju...@gmail.com wrote:
 We've been doing an installation on this LTSP Server we are trying to
 build. While formatting the 500 GB HD the partitioning
 process is stock at 33%. Can anyone suggest if there are limitations or
 problems or past experiences?

 Anyway just for additional information:
 I tried using lenny 64bit installer to no avail and 32bit installation is
 successful but we want to use 64bit because the machine has 5GB of memory so
 as to maximize the memory.
 Processor is Intel QUAD Q9550.
I donot have experience in it, if I encountered this problem, I would
try to use the gNewSense livecd to partition the harddisk, and after
that, install the 64bit debian. here is the gNewSense livecd,
http://www.gnewsense.org/index.php?n=Main.Download


 --Rod James


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today's upgrade error: dpkg: error processing ed

2009-06-01 Thread 明覺

today's upgrade has the following error:
---
Setting up ed (1.3-2) ...
install-info(/usr/share/info/ed.info.gz): no file /usr/share/info/dir,
retrieving backup file /var/backups/infodir.bak.
update-alternatives: error: alternative path /bin/ed doesn't exist.
dpkg: error processing ed (--configure):
 subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 2

Processing triggers for menu ...
Errors were encountered while processing:
 ed
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
---
does it matter? if yes,  how to solve it? thanks

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Re: Hello!! I'm New

2009-05-27 Thread 明覺

2009/5/27 EQMaker eqma...@paran.com:
 Hello all. I'm new~ :)

 I installed Debian on my computer lastnight.
 This is my first try on linux too.

 I want became 'linuxer' like all of you...
 So.. I'd like ask something to all of pioneers in this mail-list (yea.. It's
 you.. it's true..)

 How can I make friend with debian?

 Thanks for your interest on private linuxer.. :)


a debian user , too


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Re: Thank you!

2009-05-26 Thread 明覺

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Olle  Susan Gladso ogla...@gmail.com wrote:
 This may be the wrong list for this subject, but here goes.
 I want to thank the Debian developers and community for all that you do and
 that
 you stay true to your ideals. I have wanted to be able to use Debian for
 several years.
 However, because I did not know enough, I always failed. Not anymore, I am a
 very happy Debian user!
 Again, thank you!

welcome! you've got into the most famous gnu/linux distribution. :)


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Re: install proprietary nvidia driver without xorg.conf?

2009-05-18 Thread 明覺

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 5:56 AM, Michael M. Moore
mich...@writemoore.net wrote:
 I thought I'd try the proprietary nvidia driver (currently using 'nv'),
 so I've been reading through the how-to on the wiki here:

 http://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers

 I'm a little concerned, though, that it might be out-of-date (for one,
 because it keeps talking about Etch), especially given the changes in
 xorg.  Specifically, step 3:

 http://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers#ConfigureXtousethenvidiadriver

 It says for Lenny you have to edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf to load glx
 module and remove dri or GLCore modules, under the Module section;
 and that you need to change the driver (from nv to nvidia) under the
 Device section.

 My xorg.conf has no module section and the Device section is only:

Section Device
Identifier  Configured Video Device
EndSection

 I thought HAL had taken over some of the functions formerly handled in
 xorg.conf, but there's no mention of that on the wiki doc.

 So what exactly is the procedure for installing the proprietary driver
 now?
here is a way to install the official nvidia driver, not the debian way.

1. remove all the packages with name nvidia-, for they might be
conflict with the driver we will install, such as:
nvidia-glx - NVIDIA binary Xorg driver
nvidia-glx-dev - NVIDIA binary Xorg driver development files
nvidia-glx-ia32 - NVIDIA binary XFree86 4.x driver
nvidia-glx-legacy-96xx - NVIDIA binary Xorg driver (96xx legacy version)
nvidia-glx-legacy-96xx-dev - NVIDIA Xorg driver development files
(96xx legacy version)
nvidia-glx-legacy-96xx-ia32 - NVIDIA binary Xorg driver (96xx legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-2.6-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for 2.6 series
compiled for amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for 2.6
series compiled for openvz-amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6.26-1-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for Linux
2.6.26-1-amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6.26-1-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for
Linux 2.6.26-1-openvz-amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6.26-2-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for Linux
2.6.26-2-amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6.26-2-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for
Linux 2.6.26-2-openvz-amd64
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for
2.6 series compiled for amd64
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel
module for 2.6 series compiled for openvz amd64
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6.26-1-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module
for Linux 2.6.26-1-amd64 (legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6.26-1-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel
module for Linux 2.6.26-1-openvz-amd64 (legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6.26-2-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module
for Linux 2.6.26-2-amd64 (legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6.26-2-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel
module for Linux 2.6.26-2-openvz-amd64 (legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-source - NVIDIA binary kernel module source
(96xx legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-source - NVIDIA binary kernel module source
nvidia-cg-toolkit - NVIDIA Cg Toolkit Installer
nvidia-kernel-common - NVIDIA binary kernel module common files
nvidia-settings - Tool of configuring the NVIDIA graphics driver


3. install the linux-headers packages that is appropriate to your kernel.
---
ml...@rashi:~$ dpkg -l|grep linux-headers|grep 2.6.26
ii  linux-headers-2.6-amd64 2.6.26+17
 Header files for Linux 2.6-amd64
ii  linux-headers-2.6.26-1-amd642.6.26-13
 Header files for Linux 2.6.26-1-amd64
ii  linux-headers-2.6.26-1-common   2.6.26-13
 Common header files for Linux 2.6.26-1
---

4. make a symlink for the headers
-
ml...@rashi:~$ ls -l /usr/src/linux
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root src 29 2008-12-11 00:56 /usr/src/linux -
linux-headers-2.6.26-1-amd64/
--

5. download the nvidia drivers for your card from nvidia
driver download page, it looks something like this:
 NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-173.14.15-pkg2.run

6. check the gcc of your machine,  install it if not exists,
for example it is /usr/bin/gcc-4.1

7. shut down X and you run as root to exe this command
-
export CC=/usr/bin/gcc-4.1;./NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-173.14.15-pkg2.run
-

8. complete the process and restart the machine to X window.

9. if you have installed mesa on your machine, you should know that
the driver we installed just now also includes opengl implementations,
so relative shared library files like /usr/lib/libGL***.so have been
replaced by the new driver. In fact, that's the right cause of our
installation of the non-free driver, for mesa's opengl implementation
has a bug which caused the crash.(Just a guess, might be false)

 --
 Michael M.


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Re: display with 3d eccelation not working after software upgrade

2009-05-16 Thread 明覺

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Umarzuki Mochlis umarz...@gmail.com wrote:


 2009/5/14 Matus UHLAR - fantomas uh...@fantomas.sk

 On 02.05.09 18:37, Umarzuki Mochlis wrote:
  Use: Debian Lenny i386
  g. card: nvidia 7600 GS
 
  After upgrading to the latest kernel, I coudn't play computer game with
  3d
  acceleration so I ran
  # nvidia-xconfig
 
  then I rebooted, but I could not get the display working along with
  nvidia
  driver so I had to resort to
  # dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg
 
  Even after purging and reinstalling nvidia-glx, I still could not use
  the
  driver and have 3d acceleration. Did I missed anything.

 did you also install nvidia kernel modules?
 Did you install the correct nvidia kernel/glx modules?
 (maybe you need the -legacy version)

 The debian way of installing nvidia driver solved it.


I'm programming with gtkmm/gtkglextmm and opengl, and my program
crashes in the mesa dri code when the window of my program is resized,
 and the crash can be solved by installing the nvidia video card
driver from Nvidia company(not free software), here is the steps if
you want to try this way:
(created by ml...@post.harvard.edu and modified by me)

1. remove all the packages with name nvidia-, for they maybe
conflict with the driver we will install, such as:
nvidia-glx - NVIDIA binary Xorg driver
nvidia-glx-dev - NVIDIA binary Xorg driver development files
nvidia-glx-ia32 - NVIDIA binary XFree86 4.x driver
nvidia-glx-legacy-96xx - NVIDIA binary Xorg driver (96xx legacy version)
nvidia-glx-legacy-96xx-dev - NVIDIA Xorg driver development files
(96xx legacy version)
nvidia-glx-legacy-96xx-ia32 - NVIDIA binary Xorg driver (96xx legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-2.6-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for 2.6 series
compiled for amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for 2.6
series compiled for openvz-amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6.26-1-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for Linux
2.6.26-1-amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6.26-1-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for
Linux 2.6.26-1-openvz-amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6.26-2-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for Linux
2.6.26-2-amd64
nvidia-kernel-2.6.26-2-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for
Linux 2.6.26-2-openvz-amd64
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module for
2.6 series compiled for amd64
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel
module for 2.6 series compiled for openvz amd64
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6.26-1-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module
for Linux 2.6.26-1-amd64 (legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6.26-1-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel
module for Linux 2.6.26-1-openvz-amd64 (legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6.26-2-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel module
for Linux 2.6.26-2-amd64 (legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-2.6.26-2-openvz-amd64 - NVIDIA binary kernel
module for Linux 2.6.26-2-openvz-amd64 (legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-legacy-96xx-source - NVIDIA binary kernel module source
(96xx legacy version)
nvidia-kernel-source - NVIDIA binary kernel module source
nvidia-cg-toolkit - NVIDIA Cg Toolkit Installer
nvidia-kernel-common - NVIDIA binary kernel module common files
nvidia-settings - Tool of configuring the NVIDIA graphics driver

2. remove mesa packages, for they are the faulty code, such as:
ii  libgl1-mesa-dev  7.4.1-1
A free implementation of the OpenGL API -- G
ii  libgl1-mesa-dri  7.4.1-1
A free implementation of the OpenGL API -- D
ii  libgl1-mesa-dri-dbg  7.4.1-1
Debugging symbols for the Mesa DRI modules
ii  libgl1-mesa-glx  7.4.1-1
A free implementation of the OpenGL API -- G
ii  libgl1-mesa-glx-dbg  7.4.1-1
Debugging symbols for the Mesa GLX runtime
ii  libglu1-mesa 7.4.1-1
The OpenGL utility library (GLU)
ii  libglu1-mesa-dev 7.4.1-1
The OpenGL utility library -- development fi
ii  mesa-common-dev  7.4.1-1
Developer documentation for Mesa
ii  mesa-utils   7.4.1-1
Miscellaneous Mesa GL utilities

3. apt-get install the linux-headers package that is appropriate to your kernel.
---
ml...@rashi:~$ dpkg -l|grep linux-headers|grep 2.6.26
ii  linux-headers-2.6-amd64 2.6.26+17
   Header files for Linux 2.6-amd64
ii  linux-headers-2.6.26-1-amd642.6.26-13
   Header files for Linux 2.6.26-1-amd64
ii  linux-headers-2.6.26-1-common   2.6.26-13
   Common header files for Linux 2.6.26-1
---

4. then make a symlink for
-
ml...@rashi:~$ ls -l /usr/src/linux
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root src 29 2008-12-11 00:56 /usr/src/linux -
linux-headers-2.6.26-1-amd64/
--

5. then you download the nvidia drivers for your card from nvidia
driver download page, it looks something like this:

Re: how to debug segment fault problem in kdevelop?

2009-05-16 Thread 明覺

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 6a8fced30904251059g77a533c2yf94d6b66d6a63...@mail.gmail.com, 明覺 wrote:
I download the k3dsurf project(a kdevelop project) and compiled it in
kdevelop successfully, but when i run it, it says segment fault, how
could I debug it? thanks. here is the gdb info:

 This list isn't quite correct for this question.  You may want to use a
 mailing list, newsgroup, or other forum specifically for k3dsurf, or
 possibly kde-devel.  Tracking down a SIGSEGV is often the role of a
 developer[1], and this list is not developer-oriented.

 That said, SIGSEGV is generally sent to the process by the kernel when it
 attempts to access a page of memory that it doesn't have a mapping for --
 usually caused by dereferrencing a NULL or invalid pointer, but also common
 if the program is not linked correctly.
thank you for the information, it seems to be caused by the mesa libs
which is the implementation of opengl, for after I replace the
libGL***.so by installing nvidia video card driver from Nividia
company(not free software), the applications can run normally. thanks.

-
This GDB was configured as x86_64-linux-gnu.
For bug reporting instructions, please see:
http://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/bugs/...
(gdb) run
Starting program: /root/workspace/C++/k3dsurf/bin/k3dsurf
[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled]

Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x75d74a60 in ?? () from /lib/libc.so.6
(gdb) bt
#0  0x75d74a60 in ?? () from /lib/libc.so.6
#1  0x76ec4651 in glXWaitX () from /usr/lib/libGL.so.1
#2  0x7790c2a1 in QGLWidget::resizeEvent(QResizeEvent*) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#3  0x7772f07b in QWidget::event(QEvent*) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#4  0x776a8953 in QApplication::internalNotify(QObject*, QEvent*)
 () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#5  0x776a962e in QApplication::notify(QObject*, QEvent*) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#6  0x776aa03a in QApplication::sendPostedEvents(QObject*, int) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#7  0x7773018d in QWidget::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#8  0x7772e5d1 in QWidget::showChildren(bool) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#9  0x77730260 in QWidget::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#10 0x7772e5d1 in QWidget::showChildren(bool) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#11 0x77730260 in QWidget::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#12 0x778193c9 in QWidgetStack::show() () from
 /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #13 0x7772e5d1 in
 QWidget::showChildren(bool) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#14 0x77730260 in QWidget::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
--

 If this backtrace is correct and complete it looks like a bug in Qt, but it
 could also be caused by misuse of Qt by the application.  If you have no
 other ideas, you should try reducing the application to a minimal test case.
 As part of that process you'll probably find a misuse of the library, but
 you may complete that process and be able to file a high-quality bug report
 against Qt.
 --
 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
 b...@iguanasuicide.net   ((_/)o o(\_))
 ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
 http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/

 [1] You'll need to understand the programming language the program was
 written in at least, and maybe the implementation language of associated
 libraries as well.



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is it safe to reomve all the other video card driver?

2009-05-14 Thread 明覺

my video card is nVidia Corporation GeForce 9500 GT, but i found that
my debian system also installed all the other drivers, like ati,
arp.., is it safe to remove all the other drivers except the
xserver-xorg-video-nv? thanks.

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Re: Debian testing

On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Paul Cartwright a...@pcartwright.com wrote:
 I run lenny on my desktop, but I thought I'd try debian testing on a spare box
 I have, but... I'm not quite sure how to install testing. on my desktop I
 installed etch, and upgraded to testing, is that the best way, just install
 lenny, and change the sources.list?

you can directly install testing from its iso, for 64bit cpu,
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/amd64/iso-cd/debian-testing-amd64-CD-1.iso
for 32 bit cpu,
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/i386/iso-cd/debian-testing-amd64-CD-1.iso

 --
 Paul Cartwright
 Registered Linux user # 367800
 Registered Ubuntu User #12459


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Re: Debian testing

On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Paul Cartwright a...@pcartwright.com wrote:
 I run lenny on my desktop, but I thought I'd try debian testing on a spare box
 I have, but... I'm not quite sure how to install testing. on my desktop I
 installed etch, and upgraded to testing, is that the best way, just install
 lenny, and change the sources.list?

another advice is to try gNewSense, a very cool distribution,
http://www.gnewsense.org

 --
 Paul Cartwright
 Registered Linux user # 367800
 Registered Ubuntu User #12459


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where is the libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-doc installed?

I installed the package libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-doc, but I do not know
where it's installed in my computer, and how to launch it, do anyone
know it? thanks

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Re: where is the libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-doc installed?

On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 12:57 AM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 6a8fced30905090925n486a49bbjcc9ebdacf46b6...@mail.gmail.com, 明覺 wrote:
I installed the package libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-doc, but I do not know
where it's installed in my computer, and how to launch it, do anyone
know it?

 *-doc packages install their documentation to (a) subdirectory(ies) of
 /usr/share/doc.

 You can use
 dpkg -L libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-doc
 to see exactly what files were installed.
thank you for the command, it displays the files installed so clearly.

 --
 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
 b...@iguanasuicide.net   ((_/)o o(\_))
 ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
 http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/





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how to get the list of packages that i installed or removed in the last 24 hours?

my web browsers are broken after today's upgrade - iceweasel refuse to
start, and epiphany dies frequently. it might be caused by today's
upgrade for my web browsers have been working fine since this noon. so i
want to redo the upgrade i made today, how could i got it? thanks 


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Re: how to get the list of packages that i installed or removed in the last 24 hours?

On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 06:00 -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 1241778796.3522.8.ca...@minjue.jlu.edu.cn, 明覺 wrote:
 my web browsers are broken after today's upgrade - iceweasel refuse to
 start, and epiphany dies frequently. it might be caused by today's
 upgrade for my web browsers have been working fine since this noon. so i
 want to redo the upgrade i made today, how could i got it?
 
 Read /var/log/aptitude (if you used aptitude) and /var/log/apt/term.log (for 
 apt-get).

thank you, i have found it and removed those packages not necessory, but
web browsers still do not work, it's a strange thing, how could i solve
it? thanks

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web browsers are broken

my web browsers, iceweasel and epiphany become broken this afternoon, i
could not find the cause. Iceweasel could not start anymore, and i
cannot debug by gdb for it's a xulrunner application; epiphany can
start, but it goes into death very frequently, make exploring web sites
very difficuilt, and for those complex web pages, such as google mail
and msn, it cannot load anymore. using gdb for epiphany got nothing
useful.
how could i solve it? thanks



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Re: how to get the list of packages that i installed or removed in the last 24 hours?

On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 08:24 -0400, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
 In 1241783001.3432.1.ca...@minjue.jlu.edu.cn, 明覺 wrote:
 web browsers still do not work, it's a strange thing, how could i solve
 it?
 
 You question is not descriptive enough.  Read 
 http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html and then rephrase.
thank you, but i could not open the page for my browsers are broken,
epiphany died when opening it. i have sent another email with more
detailed description about it. 
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Re: web browsers are broken

On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 13:51 +0100, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
 Try installing other browsers? Kazehakase, Opera, Midori... See if
 they crash. Of there only Midori uses Gecko i think (like epiphany and
 Iceweasel), so it might be the issue, but it's just a wild guess.
 
 You can always remove/install...
thank you for the good advice, now i'm using konquorer, it works fine,
so it seems that gecko dose not work fine. 

 
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Re: how to get the list of packages that i installed or removed in the last 24 hours?

On Sat, 2009-05-09 at 10:50 +0800, Mr. Wang Long wrote:
 On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 19:43, 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 06:00 -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
  Read /var/log/aptitude (if you used aptitude) and /var/log/apt/term.log 
  (for
  apt-get).
 
  thank you, i have found it and removed those packages not necessory, but
  web browsers still do not work, it's a strange thing, how could i solve
  it? thanks
 
 
 Did you tried `iceweasel -safe-mode'?

I have uninstalled iceweasel, and now it seems that epiphany works fine.
thanks.

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Re: how to get the list of packages that i installed or removed in the last 24 hours?

On Sat, 2009-05-09 at 02:29 +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
 On Fri, May 08, 2009 at 08:44:30PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
  On Fri, 2009-05-08 at 08:24 -0400, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
   In 1241783001.3432.1.ca...@minjue.jlu.edu.cn, 明覺 wrote:
   web browsers still do not work, it's a strange thing, how could i solve
   it?
   
   You question is not descriptive enough.  Read 
   http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html and then rephrase.
  thank you, but i could not open the page for my browsers are broken,
  epiphany died when opening it. i have sent another email with more
  detailed description about it. 
 
 w3m is normally installed on the system.
but it's a text browser
 
 -- 
 Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is
 http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
 tzaf...@cohens.org.il ||  best
 ICQ# 16849754 || friend
 
 
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Re: how to get the list of packages that i installed or removed in the last 24 hours?

On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Robin rc.rattusrat...@googlemail.com wrote:
 2009/5/8 Robin rc.rattusrat...@googlemail.com:
 Same problem here after upgrade today. Process of elimination left
 package libc6. I downgraded to previous version, dpkg -i
 /var/cache/apt/archive/libc6-$VersionNumber, and resolved issue. You
 need to add  $VersionNumber , in my case libc6_2.9-10_amd64.deb, to
 suit  your platform

thank you, i also think it's caused by the upgrade of yestoday, and
after upgrade of today, i found epiphany becomes to work fine, but it
seems that today's upgrade does not include lib6,  then what's the
matter? i will keep on to notice it.

 --
 rob


 http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/team/viewTeamInfo.do?teamId=82BS4ZCMFR1

 Update: bug 527541 fixed by libc6 version 2.9.12


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 http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/team/viewTeamInfo.do?teamId=82BS4ZCMFR1




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how to remove the package installed by dpkg -i emacs23.deb

2009-05-07 Thread 明覺

I installed emacs23 by a deb file from my friend and the command
dpkg -i emacs23.deb, it works fine but it changes my ctags to use
the emacs ctags, which is conflict with anjuta, which needs another
ctags, how could I uninstall the manually installed emacs23 and also
undo all the changes it made when installing? especially to change my
ctags back so that anjuta can run.
thanks

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Re: how to remove the package installed by dpkg -i emacs23.deb

2009-05-07 Thread 明覺

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Larry Hume whyma...@gmail.com wrote:
 just aptitude purge emacs23,

thank you very much, it works, now i can use anjuta normally.




 在 Fri, 08 May 2009 07:45:13 +0800，明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com 写道:

 I installed emacs23 by a deb file from my friend and the command
 dpkg -i emacs23.deb, it works fine but it changes my ctags to use
 the emacs ctags, which is conflict with anjuta, which needs another
 ctags, how could I uninstall the manually installed emacs23 and also
 undo all the changes it made when installing? especially to change my
 ctags back so that anjuta can run.
 thanks




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Re: Is it possible to prevent emacs auto saving the filename~?

2009-05-05 Thread 明覺

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 3:59 AM, Memnon Anon gegendosenflei...@gmail.com wrote:
 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com writes:

 thank you, now I prefer the way to keep all the backup and autosave
 files in a seperate directory, such as ~/.emacs.d/autosave and
 ~/.emacs.d/backup, how could i setup that?  I'm not familiar with
 emacs, currently in my machine, there is only the ~/.emacs.d/
 directory which seems relative to emacs setup. Could you help give a
 document that details the setup steps for those purpose? thanks

 I have this in my .emacs:
 ;; Backup
 (defvar backup-dir (expand-file-name ~/.emacs.d/ebackup/))
 (defvar autosave-dir (expand-file-name ~/.emacs.d/eautosave/))
 (setq backup-directory-alist (list (cons .* backup-dir)))
 (setq auto-save-list-file-prefix autosave-dir)
 (setq auto-save-file-name-transforms `((.* ,autosave-dir t)))

 I am not sure, I think it was in the emacs faq.
thank you, i followed your instructions and now the backup files and
autosave files goes into .emacs.d subfolders instead of the working
folder, but I found that when i'm editing a file, there is still a
.#filename file existing, how could I also move the .#filename into a
subfolder of .emacs.d? thanks


 hth


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Re: any software for 3D surfaces visualization in debian sid?

2009-05-04 Thread 明覺

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Steve S elco...@gmx.net wrote:
 On Mar 16 20:59 +0100, Jörg-Volker Peetz  wrote:
 In Debian sid there is sagemath (a really big package) which itself uses, 
 a.o.,
 python-matplotlib. Maybe, you like to try one of them?

 For nice VTK-3D with python, try mayavi2.
thanks, but I do not like python, I like programming in C++, or C or ASM.


 best,
 steve


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Re: Is it possible to prevent emacs auto saving the filename~?

2009-05-04 Thread 明覺

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 3:59 AM, Memnon Anon gegendosenflei...@gmail.com wrote:
 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com writes:

 thank you, now I prefer the way to keep all the backup and autosave
 files in a seperate directory, such as ~/.emacs.d/autosave and
 ~/.emacs.d/backup, how could i setup that?  I'm not familiar with
 emacs, currently in my machine, there is only the ~/.emacs.d/
 directory which seems relative to emacs setup. Could you help give a
 document that details the setup steps for those purpose? thanks

 I have this in my .emacs:
 ;; Backup
 (defvar backup-dir (expand-file-name ~/.emacs.d/ebackup/))
 (defvar autosave-dir (expand-file-name ~/.emacs.d/eautosave/))
 (setq backup-directory-alist (list (cons .* backup-dir)))
 (setq auto-save-list-file-prefix autosave-dir)
 (setq auto-save-file-name-transforms `((.* ,autosave-dir t)))

 I am not sure, I think it was in the emacs faq.
do you mean I create the file ~/.emacs, and fill the file with the
following content? thanks

;; Backup
(defvar backup-dir (expand-file-name ~/.emacs.d/ebackup/))
(defvar autosave-dir (expand-file-name ~/.emacs.d/eautosave/))
(setq backup-directory-alist (list (cons .* backup-dir)))
(setq auto-save-list-file-prefix autosave-dir)
(setq auto-save-file-name-transforms `((.* ,autosave-dir t)))

 hth


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Is it possible to prevent emacs auto saving the filename~?

2009-05-03 Thread 明覺

I know that emacs auto save a file named filename~ when I modified the
file filename, but I do not like the autosaved copy, could i stop this
function? thanks

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Re: Is it possible to prevent emacs auto saving the filename~?

2009-05-03 Thread 明覺

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:58 PM, tyler tyler.sm...@mail.mcgill.ca wrote:
 tyler tyler.sm...@mail.mcgill.ca writes:

 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com writes:

 I know that emacs auto save a file named filename~ when I modified the
 file filename, but I do not like the autosaved copy, could i stop this
 function? thanks

 Set auto-save-default to nil, as explained in the Emacs manual:

 (info (emacs)Auto Save Control)

 Adding

 (setq auto-save-default nil)

 to your .emacs will do this automatically.

thank you, now I prefer the way to keep all the backup and autosave
files in a seperate directory, such as ~/.emacs.d/autosave and
~/.emacs.d/backup, how could i setup that?  I'm not familiar with
emacs, currently in my machine, there is only the ~/.emacs.d/
directory which seems relative to emacs setup. Could you help give a
document that details the setup steps for those purpose? thanks



 Oops! My mistake - this will turn off the auto-save feature, but what
 you were asking about was the backup feature, which is something
 different. It's controlled the same way though:

 (setq make-backup-files nil)

 Details here:

 (info (emacs)Backup)

 Cheers,

 Tyler

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how to solve the dpkg: error processing issue when installing a package?

2009-04-30 Thread 明覺

when  i tries to install the gvfs package(it should not be specific to
this package, the error may occur when installing any package), it
shows the following error
---
After this operation, 463kB of additional disk space will be used.
(Reading database ... 127441 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to replace gvfs 1.0.3-4 (using .../gvfs_1.2.2-1_amd64.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement gvfs ...
dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/gvfs_1.2.2-1_amd64.deb
(--unpack):
 trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/libgvfscommon.so.0.0.0', which is also
in package libgvfscommon0
dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)
Errors were encountered while processing:
 /var/cache/apt/archives/gvfs_1.2.2-1_amd64.deb
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
---
what's the problem? how to solve it? thanks


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Re: how to solve the dpkg: error processing issue when installing a package?

2009-04-30 Thread 明覺

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Mr. Wang Long mr.wang.l...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 17:10, 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:
 when  i tries to install the gvfs package(it should not be specific to
 this package, the error may occur when installing any package), it
 shows the following error
 ---
 After this operation, 463kB of additional disk space will be used.
 (Reading database ... 127441 files and directories currently installed.)
 Preparing to replace gvfs 1.0.3-4 (using .../gvfs_1.2.2-1_amd64.deb) ...
 Unpacking replacement gvfs ...
 dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/gvfs_1.2.2-1_amd64.deb
 (--unpack):
  trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/libgvfscommon.so.0.0.0', which is also
 in package libgvfscommon0
 dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)
 Errors were encountered while processing:
  /var/cache/apt/archives/gvfs_1.2.2-1_amd64.deb
 E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
 ---
 what's the problem? how to solve it? thanks


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 This problem also annoyed me today. It was solved by doing this:
 dpkg --force-all -P libgvfscommon0
 apt-get -f install
yes, i solved it the similar way by dpkg -i --force-overwrite
/var/cache/apt/archives/gvfs_1.2.2-1_amd64.deb :)

 Regards,
 Wang Long




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Re: failed fsck on boot

2009-04-30 Thread 明覺

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Umarzuki Mochlis umarz...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm using Debian Lenny i386 on my desktop. After every few months, my
 computer would failed to boot properly (stuck on fsck). Then I need to enter
 recovery mode then manually run fsck. A friend suggested that this is caused
 by bad power supply. There are statics on the computer casing but I want to
 clarify with those who had similar experience.

I ever had experience a little similiar with yours, my debian system
crashed 3 times in 10 days, it was said to be caused by a harddisk
problem, but my harddisk is quit new, and windows installed in another
partition works fine. I think it might be caused by Samba and
Pidgin(with heavy network tranffic and frequent harddisk writes), i'm
not sure whether my guess is true. but for my new installations, i
didn't install samba, and disabled those accounts with heavy traffic
in pidgin, only kept accounts with normal traffic in pidgin.


 TIA.

 --
 Regards,

 Umarzuki Mochlis
 http://gameornot.net




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Re: Hardware Firewall Suggestions

2009-04-28 Thread 明覺

2009/4/28 Samuel Bächler li...@boeser.ch:
 Dear All

 I have 2 Computers behind a Firewall (currently D-Link DFL-200). Consider
 one of them having IP-address 192.168.1.10 and the other having
 192.168.1.11.
 On both computers there is a ftp-server running. I want connect to the first
 by `foous...@192.168.1.10:21', to the second by
 `foous...@192.168.1.11:2121'.
 After fiddling around for some time I am wondering if my idea can be
 implemented using a D-Link DFL-200 Firewall.

 Did any of you configure successfully a Firewall the following way:

 - If request is on port 21 connect to ftp-server with IP-address
 192.168.1.10
 - If request is on port 2121 connect to ftp-server with IP-address
 192.168.1.11

 If yes, whats the name of it and is there a sound howto about it?

 Looking forward to your inputs.
I think your D-link router should support the function of redirection,
it might be named virtual server, you setup the port of the incoming
request, and its intented server ip, then it will works. For example,
you setup incoming requests with port 21 to be directed to
192.168.1.10, with port 2121 to be directed to 192.168.1.11, port 80
to the ip of your web server.


 Regards

 Sam


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Re: Anyone using the CAD packages?

2009-04-28 Thread 明覺

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Preston Boyington
preston.li...@gmail.com wrote:
 Paul Johnson wrote:
 Alan Shutko wrote:
 Aryan Ameri a.am...@linuxiran.org writes:

 Well, I always thought that AutoCAD was the equivalent of Windows in the
 CAD world. And I thought that for more professinal stuff ( i.e
 designing BMW cars) businesses use more sophisticated products (which
 again I always thought) run on Unix workstations.
 Yes, basically.  Although the big packages also run on NT.  (I used
 to work for Unigraphics, which is one of the high-end packages.)

 It seems I was wrong though. AutoCAD is the only CAD product which I
 have ever heard it's name (OK, aside from QCAD).
 High-end CAD is not a very common occupation.  Many more people use
 AutoCAD than have ever used UG, CATIA or Pro/E.  The high-end licenses
 cost about the same as a small car per seat, so it's natural many,
 many more people talk about AutoCAD.

 I know this is digging up old news, but I have to wonder if the
 situation has changed in the years that this was originally posted, now
 that AutoCAD costs more than I have ever paid for a car, and still
 doesn't work in Wine.



 The short answer (AFAIK) is no.  I would dearly _love_ to be able to
 run Solidworks, AutoCAD, MicroStation, plus their related
 Civil/Mechanical softwares on a Linux machine, but that is just not
 happening.

 IF there were more of a push for Linux at the workplace (desktops not
 just server room) then the money factor would help bring the
 businesses around.  As it is, there's no real incentive to produce a
 product that is cross platform when most of the users/businesses will
 have a Microsoft OS on the machine anyway.

 The last I saw was someone getting an old (ACAD 2000?) working on Linux
 through WINE.  The other option is running it in a Virtual Machine, but
 then you have a performance hit on top of running a Microsoft OS since
 the software is not native.

or to ask the question: what's the best free applications for CAD/CAM
in linux or debian?


 That just is not good enough.

 Preston

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Re: how to sync the gmail and evolution?

2009/4/27 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:09 AM, 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:
 I have setup gmail in evolution successfully, using imap for
 receiving, but I found that if i remove a mail in gmail, the same mail
 still exists in evolution; if i remove a mail in evolution, the same
 mail still exists in gmail, but I hope they can keep sync with each
 other, how to reach it? thanks.
 sorry, i found that if i remove a mail in gmail, then evolution will
 sync with it automatically, that's good.
I also found that removing mail in evolution also removing the same
mail in gmail, just need a receive/send. evolution is great:)

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Re: A Font Size is a Font Size is a Font Size ... not in Iceweasel it's not!

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Klistvud quotati...@aliceadsl.fr wrote:
 Howdy, List!

 I bet all Iceweasel (or FireFox, for that matter) users have noticed
 this.

 Iceweasel/FireFox fonts are waaay smaller than your desktop fonts. For
 example, if you limit the smallest font in Iceweasel to the size of
 your menu/desktop/GUI fonts, it will actually be displayed as a tiny
 font of about half their size. Vice versa, to get
 web pages to display fonts visually equivalent to, say, your size-8
 menu font, you must set the smallest Iceweasel font to as
 high as
 14!

 I'd be really grateful if a person skilled in the art would explain
 this to me. Why is a size-14 font in Iceweasel visually no bigger than
 a size-8 font in the rest of the
 GUI??? When did font sizes become a matter of... uhm, opinion?
As a web developer, i think it's my duty to answer your question, so i
made a experiment, and found that, the number you setup in firefox
preference is in a unit called px, for example, i changed the font
size to 10, then it means 10px, it's usual, for web pages often use px
as the size unit, while the font size you setup in other places, for
example in the system-preferences-appearence, the unit might be pt, pt
is a bigger unit than px, so you got your question. it's also usual,
for desktop applications usually use pt as size unit.

I hope I'm right. :)


 TIA

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Re: A Font Size is a Font Size is a Font Size ... not in Iceweasel it's not!

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Klistvud quotati...@aliceadsl.fr wrote:
 Howdy, List!

 I bet all Iceweasel (or FireFox, for that matter) users have noticed
 this.

 Iceweasel/FireFox fonts are waaay smaller than your desktop fonts. For
 example, if you limit the smallest font in Iceweasel to the size of
 your menu/desktop/GUI fonts, it will actually be displayed as a tiny
 font of about half their size. Vice versa, to get
 web pages to display fonts visually equivalent to, say, your size-8
 menu font, you must set the smallest Iceweasel font to as
 high as
 14!

 I'd be really grateful if a person skilled in the art would explain
 this to me. Why is a size-14 font in Iceweasel visually no bigger than
 a size-8 font in the rest of the
 GUI??? When did font sizes become a matter of... uhm, opinion?
what i might need to remind you is that almost all the web pages
define the font size for each element inside the pages(except those
badly made pages which forget to define the font size, then the font
size you setup in browser will apply to it).


 TIA

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Re: Kernel failure

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Thamm, Russell
russell.th...@dsto.defence.gov.au wrote:
 Hi,

 I've just installed lenny under VirtualBox as I wanted to try a different
 Linux distribution.

 When I logon to a Gnome session, I often get a popup saying:

 Your system has had a kernel failure

 It most often happens the first time I logon using gnome after a boot.
I got the same issue, I'm wondering if I should login as root directly.

 I don't get this if I select a KDE session.

 How do I track this down?

 Cheers
 Russell Thamm

 IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence
 Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES
 ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to
 contact the sender and delete the email.





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Re: how to solve the dependency problem when installing kde in sid?

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote:
 In 6a8fced30904251018ud98b3f3na5ce6f0f0b15a...@mail.gmail.com, 明覺 wrote:
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:21 PM, M. Henne martin.he...@web.de wrote:
 If you upgrade KDE currently, you most likely get KDE 4.2.2.
thanks, but I want to install kde3, not kde4, how could i install kde3?

 Then you don't want Sid, or at least not the KDE in Sid--4.2.2.  There are
 no plans to support having both KDE 3 and KDE 4 in any single version of
 Debian or to support co-installation on a mixed system.  (Well, the KDE 3
 libraries will remain available until no Debian package Depends on them.)

 You can still get KDE 3 from Lenny.  I think Squeeze is also using KDE 3 for
 now, but it will be updated to KDE 4 before release.  You may want to switch
 to one of these versions of Debian, or run some sort of mixed system and
 take advantage of the pinning system in APT.
thank you for the explanation! I have tried kde4 and found that I like
gnome more, so I decided to use gnome as my desktop already.

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Re: debian and ubuntu

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Zhengquan Zhang
zhang.zhengq...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 07:32:43PM -0700, paragasu wrote:
 ubuntu == debian testing,

 if you think debian outdated, try debian unstable.

 The problem is this, debian is definetly stable for server. But after
 one or two years after the stable release. The devs on the server will
 want the latest ruby, latest blabla...
we only provide services for c/c++ devs, not for script devs. (joke:)

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how to also delete the mail in gmail when deleted the same mail in evolution?

I have setup evolution for gmail successfully, uing imap for
receiving, but i found that if i delete a mail in evolution, the same
mail won't be removed from gmail, but I hope gmail mails can be sync
with my evolution mails, how to reach it? thanks.

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how to also delete the mail in gmail when deleted the same mail in evolution?

I have setup evolution for gmail successfully, uing imap for
receiving, but i found that if i delete a mail in evolution, the same
mail won't be removed from gmail, but I hope gmail mails can be sync
with my evolution mails, how to reach it? thanks.

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how to sync the gmail and evolution?

I have setup gmail in evolution successfully, using imap for
receiving, but I found that if i remove a mail in gmail, the same mail
still exists in evolution; if i remove a mail in evolution, the same
mail still exists in gmail, but I hope they can keep sync with each
other, how to reach it? thanks.

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Re: how to sync the gmail and evolution?

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:09 AM, 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:
 I have setup gmail in evolution successfully, using imap for
 receiving, but I found that if i remove a mail in gmail, the same mail
 still exists in evolution; if i remove a mail in evolution, the same
 mail still exists in gmail, but I hope they can keep sync with each
 other, how to reach it? thanks.
sorry, i found that if i remove a mail in gmail, then evolution will
sync with it automatically, that's good.

 --
 My platform is debian-sid-amd64 gnome kdevelop.




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Re: how to open kdevelop project?

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 1:04 PM, 明覺 shi.min...@gmail.com wrote:
 I downloaded a kdevelop project, it has k3dsurf.kdevelop, k3dsurf.pro,
 etc files, I guess kdevelop should be able to open this project, but
 unforturnitely  kdevelop only simply opens the specifed file, not the
 whole project, how could i make kdevelop to open the whole project?
 thanks
i have found it at the project menu.


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how to solve the dependency problem when installing kde in sid?

When i installed kde in sid, it needs kdeaddons which is not included
in sid, so i added the source of testing packages, which has the
kdeaddons package of version 4:3.5.9-2, but still, sid complains that
kde: Depends: kdeaddons (= 4:3.5.5) but it is not going to be
installed, how to solve this problem? thanks

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how to debug segment fault problem in kdevelop?

I download the k3dsurf project(a kdevelop project) and compiled it in
kdevelop successfully, but when i run it, it says segment fault, how
could I debug it? thanks. here is the gdb info:
-
This GDB was configured as x86_64-linux-gnu.
For bug reporting instructions, please see:
http://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/bugs/...
(gdb) run
Starting program: /root/workspace/C++/k3dsurf/bin/k3dsurf
[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled]

Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x75d74a60 in ?? () from /lib/libc.so.6
(gdb) bt
#0  0x75d74a60 in ?? () from /lib/libc.so.6
#1  0x76ec4651 in glXWaitX () from /usr/lib/libGL.so.1
#2  0x7790c2a1 in QGLWidget::resizeEvent(QResizeEvent*) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#3  0x7772f07b in QWidget::event(QEvent*) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#4  0x776a8953 in QApplication::internalNotify(QObject*, QEvent*) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#5  0x776a962e in QApplication::notify(QObject*, QEvent*) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#6  0x776aa03a in QApplication::sendPostedEvents(QObject*, int) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#7  0x7773018d in QWidget::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#8  0x7772e5d1 in QWidget::showChildren(bool) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#9  0x77730260 in QWidget::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#10 0x7772e5d1 in QWidget::showChildren(bool) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#11 0x77730260 in QWidget::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#12 0x778193c9 in QWidgetStack::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#13 0x7772e5d1 in QWidget::showChildren(bool) ()
  from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
#14 0x77730260 in QWidget::show() () from /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
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http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=25049)

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Re: how to solve the dependency problem when installing kde in sid?