Re: Another system management tool to disappear.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 29/08/2015 8:49 AM, T.J. Duchene wrote: snip rubbish Lennart is the /main/ reason systemd exists; vocal or not. The linux kernel is bloated, it shouldn't be as large IMHO either. It too goes against the *NIX way Read Lennart's own blog, you'll see that he is in the business of making Linux his own; thus my coined phrase Lennart's Linux. I want no part of Lennart Linux and I don't want ANY feature creep to lessen my freedom of choice for any essential component on my systems. Once you take in systemd, you are going to get to the stage that it will be necessary whether you like it or not. And ANYONE whom speaks against systemd is, quite simply, just like one who utters the name Voldermort in the Harry Potter story. Both are just as evil, but one is purely fictional. Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlXjGooACgkQqBZry7fv4vuT+gEAsMhRA4r2kxXAKRXFIwyBgB76 jx0zF5WQzwQPYQ2Jg98A/iFC1cqvD8+irElZ3llsB2194FnU/WMrxofbboNV2K2W =qEN/ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [OT] Television licensing. was: Re: pptp-based vpn
Huh, don't give our stick government any ideas; TV has never had a license issue in my lifetime in AU. And if the LNP (Liberal/National Party - coalition or rather demolition!) ... succeeds in screwing us over more, it just might be on their cards :( We have pay tv, but plenty of free to air; same goes for radio. I don't understand people paying for Apple Music or any other similar service. Heck, we even get a good go with TuneIn radio app one day they may charge for it, but it's free. If they do, then there are plenty of free Internet radios and plenty of free IPTV around. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55c7aad0.4040...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: cp output format
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 19/07/2015 7:59 PM, Nicolas George wrote: cmp /cdrom/300_megs_file_1 /cdrom/300_megs_file_2 ... and when you are done buying a replacement for your optical drive, you can tell me if cmp was really better than a hash. You make a very good point. As it turns out though, my case is more suitable to use cmp, but I like your thinking and appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Thank you A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWrlDYACgkQqBZry7fv4vtaiQEAoC0bg5/kv7ODeiyPuukqsnoY sdqWXhX9Qn0ixhBvkdkBANgP1aqVr27Jep5zPzaGYdxvsPvJUzzPN7nvzBL1fhom =xTzb -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55ab9437.2050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Off topic, but has lists.sourceforge.net hung itself for good?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 20/07/2015 8:39 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: I am on a couple mailing lists hosted at lists.sourceforge.net. Msgs to those lists goto a black hole, and the last msg I got from that server was around 14:20 EDT Thursday. http://isup.me/sourceforge.net I think SF have killed themselves, at least in terms of trust; if you need to source programs / best to always go to the original source wherever possible as you never know what contaminants SF might add to the mix if they can get away with it. Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWsLwUACgkQqBZry7fv4vsUfQEAsrvMhUYpCem4bcfsxhAtX7e5 m+R6qGbuRGZrkaGu/bsA/i2FOT5tadPLfQ6dgX9Cq+eW7Y8pSA0flycQ5qP2wgim =uXpL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55ac2f06.2060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Off topic, but has lists.sourceforge.net hung itself for good?
On 20/07/2015 9:34 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: On Sunday 19 July 2015 19:13:10 Andrew McGlashan wrote: Hi, On 20/07/2015 8:39 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: I am on a couple mailing lists hosted at lists.sourceforge.net. Msgs to those lists goto a black hole, and the last msg I got from that server was around 14:20 EDT Thursday. http://isup.me/sourceforge.net Is that supposed to tell me the list server is alive? Clicking on the https link to those lists, gets a msg from iceweasel that the site is broken. Right now. Sorry, just if SF is up or not. I think SF have killed themselves, at least in terms of trust; if you need to source programs / best to always go to the original source wherever possible as you never know what contaminants SF might add to the mix if they can get away with it. Cheers A. Thats what you get when the MBA's take over. Sigh... Yeah, maybe it's not good though, that's for sure :( Cheers AndrewM -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55ac3f25.50...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: cp output format
Hi,
On 17/07/2015 9:16 PM, Nicolas George wrote:
Le nonidi 29 messidor, an CCXXIII, Andrew McGlashan a écrit :
HOME_DIR=$(grep ^${fix_name}: /etc/passwd|cut -d: -f6)
eval HOME_DIR=~$fix_name is much simpler, more efficient, and would work
with NIS- or LDAP-based user databases.
Will that work with ANY shell?
md5_1=$(md5sum $HOME_DIR/.forward|cut -d\ -f1)
md5_2=$(md5sum $wrk_dir/$fix_name/.forward|cut -d\ -f1)
You can write md5=${md5%% *} instead of using cut, one fork+exec less.
Okay.
Again will that work with ANY shell?
And you can write md5sum file to have a dash instead of the file name,
and therefore not need to remove it.
Yep.
This is minor in this case, but in newly written code, avoid MD5, better
use SHA-2.
And of course (unless the files are large (unlikely for .forward) and on the
same mechanical drive), cmp file1 file2 is much simpler.
Yes.
if [ $md5_1 != $md5_2 ]
then
echo The .forward file has changed for: $fix_name
diff $HOME_DIR/.forward $wrk_dir/$fix_name/.forward|sed
's/^/ /'
cp -p $HOME_DIR/.forward
$HOME_DIR/${fix_name}.forward.$(date +%Y%m%d%H%M)
You do not check for errors.
cp -p $wrk_dir/$fix_name/.forward $HOME_DIR/
Dangerous: if .forward is not very small (think: handmade mailing-list), cp
is not atomic. That means there is a small interval of time where the target
.forward file will be only partial.
To do that kind of thing reliably, you need to create a temporary file and
rename it once it is complete. Just use rsync for the copy, it does that by
default.
Good point.
fi
done
)
Thanks
A.
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Re: cp output format
On 18/07/2015 9:40 PM, The Wanderer wrote: mmv file.~*~' file.#1 Okay, well from the OP ... $ cp --backup=t file /destination/file First time use of mmv: $ mmv file.~*~ file.#1 However, the next time you try the cp again, it will create a new ~1~ as it doesn't exist and using mmv won't give the desired result. So you would need to do: $ (cd /destination; mmv file.* file.~#1~) $ cp --backup=t file /destination/file $ (cd /destination; mmv file.~*~ file.#1) Cheers A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55aa8871.1010...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: cp output format
Hi,
On 16/07/2015 10:23 PM, Haines Brown wrote:
Sorry for this elementary question. I want to do sequential copies with
a command like this: $ cp --backup=t file .../destination/file. When
periodically run it produces file, file.~1~, file.~2~, etc.
How do I get rid of the ~ so that the backups are file.1, file.2,
etc.?
Hmm, okay, so you are copying potentially unchanged files to new version
numbers in a destination directory..
Not sure if this is relevant enough, but I have a method to keep
source files -- in this case .forward files in a controlled directory;
if any of these differ from the target locations, then I save the target
location file with a dated version and copy in the controlled source
copy. This way I only get new files if they are changed, you could use
a similar method for the backups, that is only copying files to the
backup area if they are different to the current copy in the source area.
# cat fix_dot_forward.sh
#!/bin/sh
PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin
(
wrk_dir=/backup/.forward-wrk
for fix_name in user1 user2 user3
do
HOME_DIR=$(grep ^${fix_name}: /etc/passwd|cut -d: -f6)
md5_1=$(md5sum $HOME_DIR/.forward|cut -d\ -f1)
md5_2=$(md5sum $wrk_dir/$fix_name/.forward|cut -d\ -f1)
if [ $md5_1 != $md5_2 ]
then
echo The .forward file has changed for: $fix_name
diff $HOME_DIR/.forward $wrk_dir/$fix_name/.forward|sed
's/^/ /'
cp -p $HOME_DIR/.forward
$HOME_DIR/${fix_name}.forward.$(date +%Y%m%d%H%M)
cp -p $wrk_dir/$fix_name/.forward $HOME_DIR/
fi
done
)
That gives me file versions and history in a fairly simple way; all in
the same file system area, not using any kind of version control system
other than simple file names.
Another option might be to use the %s date format for the file name
suffix to get the seconds since epoch with the file itself giving the
reference date/time value used for the suffix.
for filex in $(ls);do cp -p $filex ${filex}.$(date -r $filex +%s);done
Cheers
AndrewM
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Re: Comments on Lenovo desktops
Hi Lisi, On 13/07/2015 8:48 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: But I don't like the loook of this: Trusted Platform Module (TPM 1.2) Security Chip Again, comments please. I would be more concerned Lenovo for other reasons; helping customers with spyware MITM SSL certs for that reason alone, even though it was in the Windows world, I would be wary of supporting Lenovo ever again. They are not the same as IBM once was. Kind Regards AndrewM -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55a31084.5030...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: USB keyboard unreliable since dist-upgrade on 1st of June
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 6/07/2015 2:44 AM, Alef Farah wrote: On 2015-06-28 19:00, Don Armstrong wrote: Contentless maligning of systemd and/or other parts of Debian are not on topic on Debian mailing lists, and certainly not on topic on -user. Please stop. On the other hand, if there are bugs, file them with details, so they can be fixed, like this very bug was. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com I've been having the same keyboard issues (PS/2 mouse is fine). I've had several problems with systemd since it was added as default, so have others and you can do a quick search in this mailing list to find it. I see no reason why users shouldn't point out their discontent with it in the users mailing list. I'm only speaking out of my experience as a user, but it seems to me it was added to stable a little too soon. I'm not trying to undermine the work maintainers put into it, just writing what my experience with it has been. Exactly, I have been a very strong supporter of Debian, but this has completely broken my trust and my support; this is extremely unfortunate, but the DDs think they know best and we are stuck with it if we use Debian. Of course it doesn't help when non pro systemd people have their posting rights threatened and others feel that they can't speak up for what they believe and support or don't support. Most certainly the Debian of old, being stable and trustworthy has been lost due to systemd adoption. I want old Debian back, not Devuan, not Gentoo .. bring back the /real/ Debian, if only for server use which has no need for systemd whatsoever. Leave the experimenting to the desktop users whom really want to use it that way. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWZfGIACgkQqBZry7fv4vuhXQD+Lw6D/8SPUEMlxCVg19S5uDiq KcTTn6qWN2LPLCaKgHYA/3PY8s7VUIZHjjYC+AjMC85I6PnqRW64WsY2l2f/Dxc9 =kBWh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55997c63.1050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: USB keyboard unreliable since dist-upgrade on 1st of June
On 29/06/2015 8:00 AM, Don Armstrong wrote: It's a bug in udev, which is now part of systemd. EXACTLY, just why systemd is a problem, creeping in to other areas and causing grief. So sad. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5591a29c.1090...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: USB keyboard unreliable since dist-upgrade on 1st of June
On 29/06/2015 2:36 AM, Michael Biebl wrote: This might be https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=789723 Try upgrading to udev 221-1 or disabling /lib/udev/rules.d/42-usb-hid-pm.rules by creating an empty file in /etc/ e.g. via touch /etc/udev/rules.d/42-usb-hid-pm.rules Looks like another systemd issue, don't know why you are afraid to say that? You have to follow your link to learn a bit more. [Really I do know, anything possibly -ve about systemd is frowned upon here, rather than addressed sanely -- it really needs to be removed, doesn't it?]. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/559039ec.4040...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 22/06/2015 11:49 PM, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer And I think Debian can do fine without people who only contribute toxic behaviour. And yes, calling other projects a cancer is just that. It has all the hallmarks of cancer, growing beyond itself to the potential death of that which it has invaded. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWILgYACgkQqBZry7fv4vv/EAEAuOrfBjnOMXhZ9TWuVwWcy/1M r3cyDpcsmQ4NqQdVP8wA/ReeNVl5y/UsXf3PU6I/AuKpBkADmRNUuZQG2uo7mzfm =rA9a -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55882e08.3030...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 23/06/2015 1:43 AM, Martin Read wrote: On 22/06/15 15:32, Gene Heskett wrote: But from the tone of the messages, I think its clear that it should have spent another 6 months on the back table in a lab someplace, getting the kinks worked out so the end result for the unwary user who has not encountered it before, will not be encountering the setup headaches in the quantities that are currently generating all the derogatory comments that it is. Give a program as many months on the back table in a lab someplace as you like; you still won't work out all the kinks from the perspective of the unwary user simply because it's very, very rare for the lab to contain any in the first place. Again, not so simple. I'm just trying out Thunderbird with maildir storage instead of mbox -- they've been working on it for quite a while in dev versions, but nothing has been released until version 38.0.1 and it has problems. I was looking forward to storing local copies of emails which I had to stop due to how TB was handling very large mail stores; looks like I'll have to wait longer for this , but I am hoping the help identify the bugs. systemd come about reasonably quickly, which is very unusual for Debian. Along with it comes all sorts of changes and serious problems that are very detrimental and the stable, safe secure and oft called stale Debian has been lost. I never did mind those original traits, I certainly don't like where Debian is going with systemd ... it's like someone come along and chopped off the nose to spite the face. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWINDcACgkQqBZry7fv4vuVaAEAvnrsG+LVL7qXLIIE992mrAhc I0Bk3c4ekyQl/y6Z4wIA/0b07lT7ACqsoodojwZ7S5H53g6Efs2lI6nVHBd34YrI =J1qG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55883439.8080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 23/06/2015 12:31 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: But please, please: don't pour hate on people writing free software. This is not helping anyone (well, it is helping those not wanting free software to succeed!). Unfortunately it's not that simple tomás ... not that simple at all. Those that chose to go down the systemd path have created all sorts of grief and a hell of a lot more work for those that don't want anything to do with systemd and it's overreach in to other areas. So much so, that I don't consider Debian to be Debian any more and that is very sad in itself. Before systemd I was a very happy Debian camper, now it is a nightmare. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWILz4ACgkQqBZry7fv4vtK6gD9HulW7aFf887r2hV3LoQmd3p/ pEcbY9gkQLklb0ni8E0BALm7FCALEVS82pHtMfo8w8X5tjKNiZcvaNYl1cwEuXi1 =/XPT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55883106.5000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Systemd files on a Raspberry Pi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 22/06/2015 5:38 AM, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: chris tknch...@gmail.com writes: systemd is a cancer that you should completely eradicate especially on a system like that Please follow Debian's Code of Conduct[1] (or just basic manners) on Debian's mailing lists. Calling free software projects a cancer is not appropriate whether you like them or not. If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, plain and simple. I absolutely agree with the post that systemd is a cancer, not impossible to remove, but likely to mean the death of what it is infecting. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlWHwqEACgkQqBZry7fv4vtKPQEAiJ4+qDRoHzo0OmqlUjUTWmms d7IOWsKMDPQahNWGWW0A/1MGA2Ng0/OL/L5ApiokIzUSJXYfDoTUTZ7ivix8/eOa =Wf5l -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5587c2a3.8080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Nvidia vs AMD open source drivers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 11/06/2015 4:02 AM, Dan wrote: Thanks a lot for your answers. I can not use intel because the provider of our company only proposes AMD or NVIDIA for the workstations. I do not need a very fancy graphic card, I need something that works. I will proabably buy AMD as it seems to work well with the open source drivers. Intel is built-in to the modern CPUs, that's part of the beauty of it; including plenty of good bang for your buck and lower energy options than the super graphic cards that most people don't really need unless they are doing extreme gaming or other very serious grunt work with the GPU. Also, as I understand it, Nvidia will be requiring ALL code running on it's newer hardware to be signed code -- therefore no free or open source versions will work; you can of course opt for older hardware to hopefully not get caught up with this change. Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlV4nLcACgkQqBZry7fv4vtpcQEA3w6REXmMLkOX/AhSUY9xkW9a 2ZjT/E5ucnKcG7iRMAcA/Ajn2a3scgWr7i5Otxaid9HZ94b19Z2GMzCq08ihQ5t3 =VAgr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55789cb8.5070...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: [OT] Is Devuan a hoax?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 8/06/2015 4:55 AM, Francis Gerund wrote: Does anyone here have any inside information on what is happening (or not happening) with the Devuan project? It seems to be dead, or at least dying. Not so quick. systemd is a huge mistake for Debian and other distros, a very sad mistake, Devuan or BSD will be a far better option for servers, if not much more. Linus Linux, not Lennart Linus please. I am (more than) starting to think the whole thing was just a sick, sleazy hoax/disinformation campaign by you-know-who to confuse and disillusion any remaining heroic opposition to the systemd takeover of (at least) all of GNU/Linux. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlV1qasACgkQqBZry7fv4vviMAEA3ocqXrZ7qz7p8i3FtpmiNtaf 4fpUHW/xsPduVt2tO7wBAOAkYYl+QFnPe1D02XxIq4Dtfy9J2JMJOHEzBQmJkInh =Lk0g -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5575a9ac.90...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Is this an April Fool joke running early ? (Systemd to fork the kernel)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 1/04/2015 2:07 AM, bjf...@gmail.com wrote: Reading Wikipedia- it says systemd was chosen as default on Jessie aft er discussion over these mailing lists... Is this wrong? It is wrong to a great extent. Most negative discussion of system was quashed The DDs and committee members discussed things to a certain extent, enough for them to decide it was the way to go ... much to the dismay of a huge number of users and system administrators whom have basically been silenced. Attempts were made to remedy the situation, by way of a vote that only DD's were able to vote in, the users and system administrators were largely ridiculed and ignored with the very strong pro side people on systemd getting their way with a bunch of DDs resigning as the last straw over this matter. There is absolutely no doubt that systemd has been extremely divisive and for many, myself included, the damage is too great. I've greatly loved Debian over the years for all sorts of reasons, but this will have me parting ways as soon as I'm able to do so unless there is a miraculous miracle before then. And although this time, the kernel fork is an April Fool's joke, it really might not be far from the truth down the track. Again, I must say, I want Linus Linux and most definitely not Lennart Linux myself. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlUb3t8ACgkQqBZry7fv4vvmVgD+I6UuKVqrFXxlf0+b3Ndi0rxC rFl4hHWNJki+InAnWqAA/A3DoXPE41ZPNaBSJam2gl0veXh55rie0tAhZjn+6see =XLIl -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/551bdee1.9000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: My first brush with systemd
On 30/03/2015 9:25 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: Any useful suggestions for what I could try? In my book, chuck systemd would not count as useful. Though it has crossed my mind. :-( You wouldn't be the first... to chuck systemd ... it's bad new ;-) A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55195c25.5010...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Is this an April Fool joke running early ? (Systemd to fork the kernel)
On 31/03/2015 3:18 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: On 31/03/2015 1:00 AM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150330#community It's too early for an April fools joke, no matter where you live. Or is it serious ? Lennart Linux lives on give us back Linus Linux, please! Enough of this systemd nonsense already before it really is too late. A. https://github.com/systemdaemon/systemd/issues Clearly an early April Fools but it is very plausible, this is where Linux IS going :( A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55197c73.9080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Is this an April Fool joke running early ? (Systemd to fork the kernel)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 31/03/2015 1:00 AM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150330#community It's too early for an April fools joke, no matter where you live. Or is it serious ? Lennart Linux lives on give us back Linus Linux, please! Enough of this systemd nonsense already before it really is too late. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlUZd0YACgkQqBZry7fv4vtbsQD8Cl8lXmM6kPZCEl8M5vBs8tjF GOssuGQWPHHV4N8vGhoA/jPdGkTrwr19rt21PW4ESQD8T/+uVrYphSogZX7lXBZ3 =sMTD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55197771.5060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: A big Thank You to Debian :-)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 18/02/2015 8:40 PM, Richard Hector wrote: On 17/02/15 23:40, Karl E. Jorgensen wrote: I also ended up with systemd - which I was also somewhat sceptical about. But since I could not come up with any technically sound arguments against it (partially caused by my ignorance of systemd), I decided to take the leap - if nothing else, to be able to honestly criticize it and actually know what I was talking about. On 18/02/15 20:29, Andrew McGlashan wrote: You couldn't even bring yourself to say systemd, what's wrong with saying it? He did, actually. And described constructive motives. Yes, but the first paragraph he said system , A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlTkY6oACgkQqBZry7fv4vu4KgD8DaimHWFCyNmPbjwyH73gCeCa UKuPmBF6y733mRgLPXABAIF9aqMdPZgnnNq1wJ2sMO6e6MEIpRua4WwqtbW5CxdR =y5oJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54e463ab.5090...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: A big Thank You to Debian :-)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 19/02/2015 2:26 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Wednesday 18 February 2015 10:32:59 Martin Read wrote: On 18/02/15 07:29, Andrew McGlashan wrote: What I want from a DPL (another thread), is a DPL that will remove systemd (for starters), particularly as a system default. I didn't get Andrew's posting (???), so had to go to the archives. Andrew said: I would like to say a BIG NO THANKS ... Debian is much less than it was for me. If you don't want it, Andrew, you don't have to have it. That's fine. No-one is compelled to use it. But let the large number of people who *do* want to use it, do so in peace. It is far from that simple Lisi. The whole idea of what Debian is, has changed significantly, that's the major problem. And yes, it isn't just Debian that has been given the RHEL treatment -- the future of Linux in general, is much less rosy for the requirements that I and many others have for servers. Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlTkuMMACgkQqBZry7fv4vt61AD/bGtTEH47cpnipPvUYkJZjMq+ bnFKAOMb/NWNo0LEOKQA/Aosf91TPJl/XkAJeF0F1e14EeNBw8jJhgtHjvF+vMJQ =fwnI -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54e4b8c5.2000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: A big Thank You to Debian :-)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, Okay, you've had two supporting replies, that is virtually none. I would like to say a BIG NO THANKS ... Debian is much less than it was for me. You couldn't even bring yourself to say systemd, what's wrong with saying it? Now, just wait until you have some real problems with your systemd Jessie installation What I want from a DPL (another thread), is a DPL that will remove systemd (for starters), particularly as a system default. Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlTkP14ACgkQqBZry7fv4vtJ5wD/XjEYwSUhq1UxCH95KIxwZoFC BxV0PO/mC/ABZZnLhqwBANsBpcKo1FyqtnljZXEs//RWZRO4oBJRlfnEM/OJgkbY =Ptqe -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54e43f5f.5060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: about installing Java
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 13/02/2015 2:52 PM, Jack Chuge wrote: I know it means nothing to me until I want to install CGoban, a go client been maintaining by kgs(www.gokgs.com). And I found my debian pre-installed a java version of 1.6.0, seems odd for ever. Keep in mind that Java for many means Just another vulnerability announcement ... ymmv. If you don't need Java, don't install it, it's not worth it. If you DO need it, be very careful how you use it and perhaps in a sandbox type environment such as a VM where it can do less damage. Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlTdhPEACgkQqBZry7fv4vtSNwD+KA37wCedK9eLTYxoH8IlVLGN ZWCvwpJdceu1K/qGbUUBAMpkLec+7KtPXOzPclqsZOOqsQIKGAR6tbyd9DFzhqk1 =UQMc -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54dd84f3.1020...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: rsync question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 7/02/2015 12:01 PM, Curtis Vaughan wrote: That seems to work, but here's a problem. Each time it enters a new user directory I have to re-enter the root password. I realize I can just set it up so that I don't have to enter a password at all, but maybe there's a way to set it, so I'd have to only enter the root password once? Create a public/private key pair, give it a really good password. Add the public key to client machines authorized_keys file. Use ssh-agent to load the ID, run the process, kill ssh-agent. # eval $(ssh-agent) # ssh-add [now enter your really good password] Do work. # pkill ssh-agent Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlTVlysACgkQqBZry7fv4vu+igEAnzPIbU10jaZXS/OWCv1BS033 plJAPFbSgHI3vvcwF8MA/ibzrUvmDb8VQrC7gm3TJto3tM6fPkk9wzHqH9c+NAiO =A1kt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54d5972d.80...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Continuing to use SysV; LTS [Re: Fwd: Re: Skipping fsck during boot with systemd?]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 1/01/2015 5:10 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Mi, 31 dec 14, 09:45:53, Jerry Stuckle wrote: I've never said anyone should be obliged to maintain Debian the way I want. I said the way they are going is not acceptable, so my clients are changing distributions. Period. I think the point some are trying to make is that Debian's direction can be influenced[1], but this requires involvement. It might also be cheaper in the long term than distro-hopping every time the distribution in use takes an unwanted turn. Of course, this will not fare well with people that chose GNU/Linux because of the wrong impression that it is without cost. [1] possibly even more so than other distributions, provided the desired changes don't go against the Social Contract, etc. Unfortunately for me, the direction of Linux is a problem, I see no future in continuing with Linux when it is possible to get the /right/ result for myself and my clients by moving away from Linux to, most likely, a BSD flavour [FreeBSD is the most likely at this stage]. The writing is on the wall for Linux as far as I am concerned. It's not just Debian, even though Debian [in my world view at least] has been a major driving force in the Linux world -- going with systemd now and all that will follow due to this decision, it's not rosy, not rosy at all. Spending monies or time trying to change the situation will only delay the inevitable and such monies and time would be wasted in my view. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlSkSboACgkQqBZry7fv4vuiSgEAvMP5PTHdchdEmkIOE/9VeQy2 QWHjC7PjDk2rT6mm6FsA/jhL50I9gSV+90y6JdCSieaqeaaV1JmjvEcE3oeICAbn =V9DB -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54a449bc.4070...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: bind9 needs sometimes a restart after resume from suspend
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 30/11/2014 8:42 PM, Rainer Dorsch wrote: blackbox:/etc/bind# cat /etc/systemd/system/bind9-resume.service So ... buggy systemd bites yet again; and *some* [too many] people still don't understand why we don't want this on our Debian (or other) systems. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlR7BzoACgkQqBZry7fv4vtyFgEA2lxjJ5tJpX8n+owMTM73Rcwy w0WCbqupjDduwbRWV+YBAJ//SFY0D2dB33XZQnmSmHjjf9IfZda6jyEqNB2ONw9d =E/GT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547b073d.3080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Headless server just got suspended by updating systemd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 26/11/2014 3:50 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote: It would be nice if I could have used the time replying to your obstreperous and bilious attack helping people with Debian problems. Unfortunately *systemd is very much now a Debian problem* going forward; I'm doing what I can about that, but just the same, I do see it as forgone conclusion and therefore a lost cause and I'm not at all happy about that. Not forced to *use* systemd now a natural continuation of the current trend will mean that you will be forced to use systemd at some stage if not now, and probably soonish. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlR16PIACgkQqBZry7fv4vsNKAEAjZDNA7CfDC2LAnlMGcoh12p9 TVAmJ/ovWPY47MSiO+AA/ixEGEP0MUm5KMi9+LJKljDxYm2bHqQAPa06OZ1pfXvM =MRCx -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5475e8f9.7040...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Headless server just got suspended by updating systemd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 26/11/2014 11:07 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: And *what do we know about the original customisation* that was made - which may have 'some' bearing on the badness of the upgrade/update defaults?? Oh, I get it, you think Debian is perfect and that systemd could not possibly be the cause of the problem -- that's funny; now I understand why you are so unreasonable with people having issues with systemd. In short, you are deluded. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlR1MOEACgkQqBZry7fv4vvCwQEAvpXN3PVcvMKUDqLkaCQW9j6v ZJhCAhwTTyf1ei6iFacBALBB6v22pezoPCUbP4gMl/DDdEFi0kIxnJKdMzJFoRCQ =dQ7y -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547530e2.40...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: systemd-free alternatives are not off topic.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 23/11/2014 11:14 AM, John Hasler wrote: Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI writes: But they are anathema to the We are systemd of Borg, resistance is futile crowd. And then there is the Systemd is the Borg! Kill! Kill! crowd who jump into every mention of Systemd to piss and moan about the other crowd, which then retaliates. While I can and will killfile you others evidently can't or won't and so every attempt at a rational discussion of anything Systemd related gets disrupted. I don't care for Systemd but I am going to have to live with it and so I want to hear about it's bugs, misfeatures, and workarounds. I do *not* want to hear about your conspiracy theories nor do I want to hear any more sneering ridicule of anyone who questions Systemd. Both crowds should just STFU. You are doing nothing but antagonizing people. Not to mention the fact that the list is NOT seeing the breadth of the problems with systemd -- the views of the not so few are being squashed time and time again with post moderation. You will never see the full picture of the problem if you only listen to what is allowed to be received via the debian-user list ... and you are deluded if you think the problem only concerns a small limited number of people. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRxlawACgkQqBZry7fv4vsH2QD+N4fJ0Y4RMs9isqOvTuryBT3d w9h8jLd2/voVqPd4DMIA/3vQ7TZpP4iqOUj8kFC+eJrMQ70/1tyPM3ztYJ38IzMp =NrPA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547195ad.1010...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: systemd-free alternatives are not off topic.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 23/11/2014 7:53 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote: How many people subscribe to this list? How many people follow the various reposting of this list? Sorry Scott, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The assumptions you are making are ridiculous. I've given many good reasons why I don't support systemd and none of them need me to do anything that /supports/ systemd, such as using it. I DO NOT WANT SYSTEMD ON ANY SYSTEM THAT I ADMINISTRATE ... is that so hard to understand? It's not about conspiracy, it's not about a lot of things that you assume. Please, if you don't understand my position, then read all my posts on the matter -- if you don't want to read all my posts, then stop making false assumptions and accusations. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRx2rYACgkQqBZry7fv4vsP4AD/ej8zebpgKate+kDgp/p49ph2 N8xQAsyZZrNhXlKzpGUA/RmlhaCluUe33E/onyKwHhCIMBkSNqIkEnAgasy62T6K =skYr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5471dab8.1090...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: systemd-free alternatives are not off topic.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 24/11/2014 3:38 AM, John Hasler wrote: Andrew McGlashan writes: I DO NOT WANT SYSTEMD ON ANY SYSTEM THAT I ADMINISTRATE ... is that so hard to understand? What's hard to understand is why I should give a damn. Ditto on why I should give a damn about your position. I would like to see Debian move forward, but I see the systemd situation as a clear backwards step. The future of Debian will mean, as it stands today, that systemd will be more important and likely become a necessity even though today we are not forced to use it ... and that's just part of the problem. I would prefer Linux kernel with traditional Debian userland with stability and security as major focuses, not the init system or anything else that comes along with systemd lock-in coming in the not too distant future. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRyLmwACgkQqBZry7fv4vutPAD/efPbFZzZNXR0oC3wTNIfCfG3 gt5ywQ30+S/gYyTosdkA/j4hEA0fD/aIn+/ypxUxh4QpciPe0ndIYYUpA71qa+LR =QtTR -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54722e6e.1070...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: systemd-free alternatives are not off topic.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 24/11/2014 4:17 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: On 11/23/2014 11:43 AM, John Hasler wrote: Andrew McGlashan writes: You will never see the full picture of the problem if you only listen to what is allowed to be received via the debian-user list... What makes you think debian-user is my only source of information? ...and you are deluded if you think the problem only concerns a small limited number of people. What makes you think I believe that? I *still* do not want to see your emotional rants here (nor those of your opponents). Are you unaware of the fact that many people support Systemd solely because they have decided that all the opponents are raving lunatics? Anyone who has done that instead of making decisions on technical grounds deserves what he/she gets. What I see missing in these discussions is the vast number of people who don't monitor the lists. That is the huge majority of Debian users. Some will get a rude surprise when they upgrade and things don't work as expected. Many will be able to fix those problems - but at a cost of time and manpower. Others will have neither the time nor the money to fix the problems, and still others will not have the technical expertise to do so. Exactly, well said Jerry. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRyL2wACgkQqBZry7fv4vsj2QD/YVLHdLG/2WZkfFP1Y8oVKUus Q/2ApXKSIkb4xrfX/lAA/R9qMVzgvd2xTC1A8EqsWGbR8/MQzzmHvBabNRlX9zBQ =TV92 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54722f6d.4000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: the developers have spoken
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 20/11/2014 1:11 AM, songbird wrote: the vote is in. let us thank each one of them for their efforts to continue making Debian what it is: a fractious and wonderful expression of free source code, the ability to distribute such in a relatively sane and safe manner. No, not necessarily. For many, it means that Debian Linux is dying and will soon be dead -- or rather, no longer relevant. I just hope that the alternative in FreeBSD works out. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRsxHMACgkQqBZry7fv4vv4cgD+MzvggshD3ObBIHJip4XscnKI 4Hq/fYN6J1bJ8ymnKXgA/iCfswxiU3Xvwi6eSduBJUh1B9e+kAsseRV2zyHkAQrS =2f2X -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546cc474.7060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: the developers have spoken
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 20/11/2014 4:01 AM, golinux wrote: My beloved Debian, RIP. Very sad that the ride will be over when when Squeeze and Wheezy (and possibly Jessie - jury is still out) get to EOL . . . golinux (soon to be linuxrip) 1 I am greatly saddened by the course that Debian Linux is going. If it wasn't for the debacle that is systemd, well, I would probably have never considered leaving Debian. Now a whole community is extremely divided and user numbers are set to plummet significantly over the coming year(s). The actual GR ... I was not at all happy with it's content -- but that may not have had any effect on the result, given that the Lennart cool aid is so infectious for the DDs and not enough people think there is a wrong that needed to be righted. You can keep your Lennart Linux, I don't want it, it's not for me. On a +ve note, my reading of FreeBSD promises that I'll have access to much later versions of software that are even closer to the upstream developer builds whilst still being aligned to the -STABLE branch. Plus, of course, full native ZFS, which I am very enthusiastic about after coming from great experiences with Solaris usage on Sun equipment. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRs1T8ACgkQqBZry7fv4vtXzwD6Az9/IlQPK3XyOKyA6P8uWmwH iPG/RyR6/o1gS8zgM7gBALDVDFlHrTA/x9LUVyvX70/i66etKpuxOGWKgAdkyR1s =44At -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546cd540.6010...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: the developers have spoken
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 20/11/2014 5:45 AM, Brian wrote: The vast majority on debian-user see this list as being for the support of users who *use* Debian and not a talking shop about it. Encouragement to pervert its purpose is little short of bad manners, no matter how interesting a small number may find the topic. Please be considerate. FFS, if it wasn't so divisive, then you would be right -- fact is, there are a great many people whom feel agrieved over the introduction of systemd and where everything is going [not just systemd, but also it's encroachment into other non-init areas]/ Again, it is the Lennart Linux way or The Highway ... A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRs5+YACgkQqBZry7fv4vtjiQEA1zbuhySPvLuy/YOOl30lO9P4 XuMAb66VJ0KuHqGt+fcA/1+IG2sYhfY37qXqtIO33t4sufhf8bRnGZh551ydiERz =D0wr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546ce7e9.8070...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Lennart Poettering Linux -- some real eye openers here ... don't be blindsided!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 10/11/2014 7:38 PM, Matt Ventura wrote: On 11/9/2014 11:01 PM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Andrew McGlashan: Forwarding a message as is from another mailing list ... very relevant to Linux and the systemd dilemma. No, it is not. Sorry, but requiring an up-to-date kernel (or any other infrastructure you rely on) instead of maintaining workarounds and compatibility code in perpetuity makes perfect sense. If you don't like that choice, you have a lot of legitimate options * use another init * use an older version of systemd * upgrade your kernel * back-port the features you want/need Note that bitching about upstream choices on debian-vote is not included in this list. The problem is that option #1 is becoming less and less viable due to more and more packages pulling in systemd dependencies, sometimes completely unecessarily from a functionality standpoint. Absolutely correct. It might be possible in Jessie, but it won't be for long as per Lennart's own postings on the matter. And for those choosing to go with systemd they'll need 20 updates of Jessie just because the kernel is intrinsically linked to systemd and needs an update. Options 2, 3 4 are equally non-viable for production systems; they might be fine for play setups so long as you don't turn the boxen into a serious security risk; it's a moot point for me anyway, as I don't use play setups. I use systemd on a laptop and a desktop (voluntarily, not because of dependencies), but it's fairly clear that there are enough reasons for systemd to not be forced on people. Okay, that's the right reason, by your own choice. I find it quite ironic that people are complaining about a GR being used to force a decision on people when this whole thing started because systemd is being forced on people. Yes very ironic indeed and yet again, absolutely correct. The significance of the systemd change should have been reason for supporters of systemd to fork a new Debian or at the very least a new blend, not to destroy or damage the existing one. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRgfeUACgkQqBZry7fv4vvqlwD+KpnuivvU67odbalG9YdDWRns DcVtHpAyTBIeTpBWdxYA/0R6WAC6k162hP9oP1kXSC1KeGIw/d8XDbW6wspotc18 =2Cbi -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54607de7.60...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Lennart Poettering Linux -- some real eye openers here ... don't be blindsided!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 10/11/2014 9:55 PM, Martin Read wrote: On 10/11/14 08:57, Andrew McGlashan wrote: And for those choosing to go with systemd they'll need 20 updates of Jessie just because the kernel is intrinsically linked to systemd and needs an update. snip As such, if you wish people to believe your claim that a fully security-updated Debian jessie at the point it becomes oldstable will contain a 3.morethan16 Linux kernel and a version of systemd later than 215, it's incumbent on *you* to provide evidence for your claim. So, IOW, Debian will have to release more quickly or it will be too stale to become Lennart Poettering Linux ... that process will take more than a few generations, unless much can be done b/w each stable release -- it certainly does look like as much is being to ensure a *forced* requirement for systemd and it's entanglement as quickly as possible; that is evidenced by Lennart's own post which decries the systemd haters, rather than addressing the real issues that we are concerned about. In the famous words in an advertisement for Pantene [1], a hair product: it won't happen overnight, but it will happen... So, it will run a course and we will get to the point where systemd will be unavoidable in most if not all of the Linux world. A. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EweM_ILVt4 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRgr28ACgkQqBZry7fv4vseWwD+JlbeOixy0k8YAgE3GSSK8IeL XWfhChgXXmCx6eDemCkBAIFlrm/oQOyIScTuM2G4yROWIkHkorFC4SQkF/PkxOJe =Qvnp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5460af72.2090...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Has the systemd fork already happened?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 10/11/2014 11:49 PM, fsmithred wrote: It seems to be working, so far, but as mentioned, it may break at some point with upgrades. Others can try the same thing and share their experiences. If you're willing to accept libsystemd0, then I think you don't need to use older versions of dbus and libpulse0. (I could be wrong about that.) And that is THE most major problem. As a long term Debian user, I can no longer rely on things to work as they have done so in the past; I will be forced to use packages that I choose NOT to use -- it's bad enough getting lots of suggests by default when installing packages; those weren't needed and they've over complicated setups. It is abundantly clear, the current direction means that for myself and others like me, that we need to forfeit our investment in Debian over many years and put a new and significant investment in something else, such as FreeBSD -- either way, we'll have to spend considerable time getting to know the new Debian ways with systemd or the different ways of BSD [or another alternate option that probably won't include Linux long term]. The one other area that helps with my direction is that I don't like BTRFS and I would prefer native ZFS ... those two things add more to the exit from Debian to FreeBSD. I had hoped to leverage my Debian experience and sidestep some issues by going with kFreeBSD [less change], but kFreeBSD is now considered not worthy of release status. So much for stable, secure and trustworthy computing with Debian, those times have passed ... unless you wish to embrace systemd, it's become the systemd way or the highway. There is no doubt about it. It's just a matter of when for myself and many others. Of course that is amplified when we have customer servers running Debian and systems in place that are fine the way they are right now, on the whole. I only recently had to undergo a migration from Xen to KVM because a server I wanted to run Xen on wouldn't work with Xen and I could not find a way to make it work, but KVM works fine on the same server. I also couldn't continue to run squeeze-lts on that older server because Xen was no longer /supported/ as determined by Debian-Security-Status. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRg3OYACgkQqBZry7fv4vt3zAD/ft1U3rnnvt8U4MlsYqHEW3I6 KwzdpPjoXqkxGSafzS0BAMcVx47y4gyocJmQioH8vtiDqyEG7Ld1ZRYIzOs6EvRM =RH7J -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5460dcfe.2050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 11/11/2014 5:46 AM, Hans wrote: -- You could at least spell the perp's name correctly if you are going to come to his defense. It's LENNART! Sorry for that, I hope he will not blame me for that. However, I intended not to tark part on any side! Neither Lennarts nor the systemd-haters. It's not about haters ... necessarily, what about those that simply DO NOT WANT systemd on any systems they manage AND also DO NOT WANT to see Linux destroyed for the interests of Lennart and his [lovers?] / supporters? We, those of whom, DO NOT want systemd have a voice too. That doesn't make us whingers and we shouldn't be told to F*** off either. There is so much bad will from the lovers of systemd it's incredible. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRhDR8ACgkQqBZry7fv4vtADAEAr+bhmVTEjc9P32x2TBIGqD64 TyTVFHZrf3xrwFd1uQsBAIPL1KjuZDbkkp0NLSbWj8SAe1M08nLWEI0PsYQ1quxd =uxdk -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54610d22.6070...@affinityvision.com.au
Lennart Poettering Linux -- some real eye openers here ... don't be blindsided!
Forwarding a message as is from another mailing list ... very relevant to Linux and the systemd dilemma. begin forward... http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html On Fri, 30.05.14 04:32, Michael Biebl (mbiebl at gmail.com) wrote: 2014-05-30 4:26 GMT+02:00 Greg KH gregkh at linuxfoundation.org: You update systemd but you don't update the kernel? How does that make any sense? There might be very valid reasons why you need to stick with the old kernel. As said, one example could be that the new one simply doesn't boot. Requiring lock-step upgrades makes the system less fault-tolerant. So where possible this should be avoided. To make this clear, we expect that systemd and kernels are updated in lockstep. We explicitly do not support really old kernels with really new systemd. So far we had the focus to support up to 2y old kernels (which means 3.4 right now), but even that should be taken with a grain of salt, as we already made clear that soon after kdbus is merged into the kernel we'll probably make a hard requirement on it from the systemd side. I am tempted to say that we should merge the firmware loader removal patch at the same time as the kdbus requirement is made. As that would be a clean cut anyway... Also note that at that point we intend to move udev onto kdbus as transport, and get rid of the userspace-to-userspace netlink-based tranport udev used so far. Unless the systemd-haters prepare another kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore starting at that point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call. Lennart Poettering, Red Hat --- According to that logic, Linux is Linux+udev+kdbus+systemd .. In tone it is pure bullying. I have taken udev and it will not work without systemd and I don't care about anything else. I don't think it fits in a GNU/Linux community project like Debian. It is not collaborative at all. It is good for a company like Red Hat to have our ecosystem everywhere but not for the rest. Lock-step is good for attackers. If I update X I better update Y and update Z too. oh, I don't know. Maybe don't update. And I do not need Z's functionality but I better do it all.. It is not good for embedded systems if the dependencies are many, become circular and hard to understand. The NSA will love it. Linux will work as long as you use it the way Poettering and Red Hat wants you to use it. Well, I have as much interest in it as using Windows or Mac OS X;-) BTW: People are mangling init(8) and sysV init in the discussion. You can run init and then comes inittab, rc.conf, /etc/rc to change between run levels and than /etc/init.d/*. You can change all that and it does not hurt a bit;-) Regards Peter ___ luv-talk mailing list luv-t...@luv.asn.au http://lists.luv.asn.au/listinfo/luv-talk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546053c0.5050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Lennart Poettering Linux -- some real eye openers here ... don't be blindsided!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 10/11/2014 6:01 PM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Andrew McGlashan: Forwarding a message as is from another mailing list ... very relevant to Linux and the systemd dilemma. No, it is not. Sorry, but requiring an up-to-date kernel (or any other infrastructure you rely on) instead of maintaining workarounds and compatibility code in perpetuity makes perfect sense. It's not just the kernel, it's the wholesale changes to what Linux, particularly Debian, has been. Give me newer kernels any day if they provide real benefits, but adding systemd requirements doesn't fall in to that for me. Ditto for BTRFS support. The cancer of systemd is continually being revealed, when will it end? What other sub-systems will it not swallow up? The world of FreeBSD with ZFS seems so much more appealing day after day. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRgbzAACgkQqBZry7fv4vt2UgEAsoew2JQNvksNCljEVtYmtBDS CEEaWvnc19z7is4APxMA/isU2Lh9Yoi2XU0qaeiDeOQClL+vXHgcNJxV417aGym5 =QBgi -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54606f32.3090...@affinityvision.com.au
exim4/hotmail problems since upgrade to wheezy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, I have a server that was upgraded from squeeze-lts to wheezy. Since the upgrade, any mail coming from hotmail servers can no longer be delivered to the server. I see lots of errors like these in the /var/log/exim4/mainlog TLS error on connection from blu004-omc2s1.hotmail.com [65.55.111.76] (gnutls_handshake): timed out Outlook.com (via web) is not able to deliver messages, there are delay messages and then a final NDR -- the NDR just says that they couldn't communicate with the server. Sending from hotmail to an older [yet to be upgraded] Debian server still running squeeze-lts works fine. The gnutls_handshake timeouts are the problem. I know that the receiving server is working fine for other sending servers, the problem seems to be just hotmail's servers trying to send to the Debian server. - -- Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRd2Q8ACgkQqBZry7fv4vvK0wEAhHLa2wTbvSCrOLQrTCb5lLCi f9MxGecv+PwIpSRL7LUA/3fJDHk2NVj1dzJa0p1B7hFroH8faCheXoEBRF5ltAsH =19Rg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545dd910.9050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Joey Hess is out?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 8/11/2014 7:51 PM, Mart van de Wege wrote: The fact that the Constitution is being used to ram a GR down the developers' throats two weeks before Jessie freeze may have a teensy bit to do wit that? Maybe so, but that in itself is sad. I'm sure this wouldn't be the only reason though. I would rather it be done right [release...], than be done by an otherwise /not/ necessary arbitrary date for a freeze. The problems have been festering for a great deal of time, why a GR wasn't managed earlier is a different issue, also of concern. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRd3+4ACgkQqBZry7fv4vt6yAD9FD6LZQo+pxZhsEz6P4CsGfxN lOa5rz2gur7hMIyKO2UBAJxxAJwVVFsPnhoM6q/2Ib3lnDVRvKTQs3ETcXex0/Fq =smpS -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545ddfef.8020...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: exim4/hotmail problems since upgrade to wheezy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, SOLVED ... Short story: regenerate exim.crt and exim.key Turns out that most servers out in the world were happy with the re-use of the old exim.crt and exim.key files. These servers had problems until I created new key and cert files: Microsoft Hotmail [live.com, live.com.au, hotmail.com, outlook.com] and also Any services going through Websense [mailcontrol.com servers] I had an old 10 year 2048 bit RSA cert, it is now a 5 year 4096 RSA cert. These certs are self-signed too, being self-signed wasn't the problem though. Hope this helps some. Thanks. - -- Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlReI6AACgkQqBZry7fv4vucVgD+IpZ0LCCqDd2O8eIUPZ1HGUKB /4LS/gxJXL2DBuITKmUBAL6issqks0Fi7PnjdhrcV8TOjUDuAjs6GeeoF06Jllev =RcpU -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545e23a1.2010...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Joey Hess is out?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 9/11/2014 2:03 AM, Mart van de Wege wrote: Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au writes: On 8/11/2014 7:51 PM, Mart van de Wege wrote: The fact that the Constitution is being used to ram a GR down the developers' throats two weeks before Jessie freeze may have a teensy bit to do wit that? Maybe so, but that in itself is sad. I'm sure this wouldn't be the only reason though. I would rather it be done right [release...], than be done by an otherwise /not/ necessary arbitrary date for a freeze. Quite frankly, I'm disgusted. A developer with a lot of contributions is chased away by the noise made by a bunch of whiners who can't even be bothered to set up a test server. What a load of bull. What part of we don't want systemd on any of our systems don't you get? If we don't want it, we won't be testing it. All the arguments against systemd have been played time and time again [to deaf ears almost every time]; get your head out of the sand and take note. Enough said. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRfDAIACgkQqBZry7fv4vufQQD9FIZ+P4LQaIrz1uBD5dhlj+YM jkXAAMTFhIsBZaG5x/oA/j3uGizqS/mOBQEI7cDnJ8WdZE1a7lKFW29aFoCzTX33 =PccQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545f0c03.9050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Problems with greylistd and exim and gmail
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2/11/2014 8:24 PM, Virgo Pärna wrote: Ok problem is solved. I did have invalid lines in file: like that 209.85.128/17 line. And exim stops processing file, if it meets invalid host line. I guess, that it was just coincidence, that it started happening now. I would like to know the best way to validate the file, offline, before it effects greylisting. Anyone? A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRfEpUACgkQqBZry7fv4vvdogEA00g5mGAmI11tDU+9MMBNyuaj BZjexnwNAJY1EG1UBksA/i+JoT8Ndr/bkzJAqrscYrTPAMutcdR7uZpifYdRhQXH =j9wu -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545f1296.3010...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Who's locking down the code?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 26/10/2014 10:24 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: Andrew McGlashan wrote: That is 100% true, I couldn't give a rats if it is PID1 or not. It IS systemd, that's more than enough for me to want it OUT -- it's a cancer that is spreading and it needs to be eradicated *before* it is nigh impossible. It is an habit in debian to compile the packages with as many options as possible as long as it's not adding pile of new dependencies or causing issues to the other packages in the archive. IMHO, if you have the (non-technical?) requirement to not have any systemd component on your system, you'll have to either start building your own packages (you can have a look at apt-build) and maybe propose sensible patches to make it easier for the debian users to opt-out when rebuilding packages. Or switch to a distribution that allows you to select which components are enabled at build time. You are completely missing the point. It is not technical, nor political. Two main developers cause significant concern about systemd in particular and also what systemd is in itself brings other concerns - -- the attack surface/risk also comes in to play. One lead developer was responsible for the /mess/ that many people believe to be ... Pulse Audio his *vision* for systemd is all about Poettering: Revisiting how we put together Linux systems [1]. Another developer's code won't even be accepted by Linus as the developer has been found to be untrustworthy to Linus. These reasons alone are quite significant and I don't want any of the systems that I maintain being effected by these risks. A. [1] http://lwn.net/Articles/610067/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRM/FkACgkQqBZry7fv4vsyfQEAvxlAnNRTscj0XxljVve4yeNP 0np7vS9lCY141tW7ZTIA/1kgdFbLqA2iL4ReU+YH+JGtjVp4hWImAXd9iUGXbTem =/LWh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/544cfc5a.6040...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Who's locking down the code?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 26/10/2014 4:30 AM, goli...@riseup.net wrote: The fact that an executable is linked against a systemd library doesn't automatically mean you have to run systemd as PID1. This is especially true for the sd-daemon and sd-journal libraries in this case. Laurent Bigonville I have heard that argument before. I counter that it's about more than PID1. It seems that even having systemd libraries etc. is a little like being somewhat pregnant - precursors to a little bundle of joy to be delivered at a later date when the PTB see fit. In other words, a trojan of sorts that will come to bite us. Sorry, not much trust these days . . . :( That is 100% true, I couldn't give a rats if it is PID1 or not. It IS systemd, that's more than enough for me to want it OUT -- it's a cancer that is spreading and it needs to be eradicated *before* it is nigh impossible. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlRMU0cACgkQqBZry7fv4vvDVgD9EHc1Ds6V8d3bkI3V2eAI9cR6 4cWm3xyIKpQpcJJGXooA/RcRPhdu0V844hhnX85Et69RDttoGHbHTUBZnudyZY27 =wPWN -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/544c5349.2000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: msg from tornow....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, Thanks for the cc in this case, your message never made it to the list, it was /probably/ silently dropped changing the subject line to see if it helps *this* message to get through ;-) for the list *benefit* ... said email follows... On 21/10/2014 8:06 AM, tor...@riseup.net wrote: Do I want systemd ? - definitely and absolutely NO. Is there any point arguing here in debian-user ? - definitely NOT. My view is that systemd is a forgone conclusion and no-one whom has decided that it should be will be convinced otherwise. I cannot agree that systemd is better over sysvinit and I don't expect that to ever change. There is NOTHING wrong with sysvinit, there is something wrong with blaming sysvinit for other startup issues that had/have been done incorrectly. Same thoughts here. I made my choice and changed the distribution, after running Debian for 6 years. If needed, Poettering's ideas make it sound like that, i will even change the OS (obvious choice: BSD). I didn't make that choice lighthearted. Debian meant something to me. Not arguing here, cause it won't bring a change, doesn't mean one doesn't care and won't make the according choice. And calling people who are worried about systemd trolls (and/or haters), worried because they *do* care about Debian, sure won't convince them to stay. Bye. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF0EAREIAAYFAlRFlzcACgkQqBZry7fv4vvBEQD9F51oxM+DTos3qNK/vCqDYAIT rUjoIlPkocpm0rlakrYA+IUh2iu3TGp8zm9bBUJS7pBjTLOtzB5jIGyimUL31VA= =CqIZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54459738.8040...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 15/10/2014 6:02 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: ConsoleKit, unmaintained. But fixed, for kFreeBSD A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ+ZOQACgkQqBZry7fv4vtv5gEAqxefTmCV1PLqwNWgJOGeFwGD zc00RNvDgol9E3waTeUA/3VV1gqBmLnO2dYcydok6SlSN2S53dQGK+IEpSn3kRpg =Q1fk -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543e64e7.8060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: how to identify reverse dependencies?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 16/10/2014 3:22 AM, Slavko wrote: But e.g. my dbus package doesn't depends on systemd at all: LANG=en aptitude show dbus | grep Depends -A2 Depends: libaudit1 (= 1:2.2.1), libc6 (= 2.17), libcap-ng0, libdbus-1-3 (= 1.7.6), libexpat1 (= 2.0.1), libselinux1 (= 2.0.65), adduser, lsb-base (= 3.2-14) Okay, the following are on a couple of my systems. squeeze-lts ... # LANG=en aptitude show dbus | grep Depends -A4 Depends: libc6 (= 2.9), libdbus-1-3 (= 1.0.2), libexpat1 (= 1.95.8), libselinux1 (= 1.32), adduser, lsb-base (= 3.2-14) Suggests: dbus-x11 Breaks: dbus-1-utils ( 1.0.2-5) Replaces: dbus-1-utils ( 1.0.2-5) wheezy # LANG=en aptitude show dbus | grep Depends -A3 Depends: libc6 (= 2.10), libdbus-1-3 (= 1.0.2), libexpat1 (= 2.0.1), libselinux1 (= 1.32), libsystemd-login0 (= 31), adduser, lsb-base (= 3.2-14) Suggests: dbus-x11 A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ+u5cACgkQqBZry7fv4vsimAEAvsSOhc/2ILiQGSk3Nf9i89hU ZiUeJN1RQsLbequa6SwBAKEog+bofSEMAUP6ehOhQ5i3nDj/Rt25xAyDvDtzrNj1 =R1B2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543ebb99.7070...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 16/10/2014 6:49 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: reported bugs will get less attention nowtoo). But the consolekit deprecation happened a long time before the tech-ctte decision about systemd. Some one/people could have picked it up long ago. If they had, the context in which the tech-ctte decision was made could have been very different. ConsoleKit has been fixed for kFreeBSD build, I expect fixing it in normal Debian/GNU wouldn't have been harder than choosing systemd. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ+154ACgkQqBZry7fv4vuDTAD+PgRuxA+5/DfsI+VGk3rwyw/f 6UEzhSHpuYMhXin2YqoA+gMV12rwbI4llFwLlf43QwhurpmS6ltjhHESYAOIUDwW =Ik37 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543ed79f.4080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 3:14 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Joey Hess wrote: Well I guess I'd find it a lot cleaner to make the choice as part of installation, rather than have systemd installed as a default and then have to uninstall it. I hate unwinding dependencies, particularly for something as central as the init system. That's just asking for trouble. If it was init only, then it would be much less unwinding, but it is so much more today and will be so much more again later! A point that many seem to be forgetting. I would prefer to install an older release, then upgrade from it -- and hopefully the upgrade doesn't try to install systemd. So, yes, if you're taking requests, I'd sure like to see that in expert mode. For sure. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ97IcACgkQqBZry7fv4vssTAEAjkxW5i4kY3dZdEB8kX6RtukS VUtLKXgfCYex/Fox5dUBALtRi+3MnKlDLVtmwMCEUboUok+WMRqTwRdf0CvyBIJN =zR1c -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543dec8a.8080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: how to identify reverse dependencies?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 8:09 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: aptitude search '?depends(^systemd$)' # aptitude search '?depends(^systemd$)' Wednesday 15 October 14:54:30 EST 2014 -- search ?depends(^systemd$) p libpam-systemd - system and service manager - PAM module p lighttpd - fast webserver with minimal memory footprint p live-config-systemd - Live System Configuration Scripts (systemd backend) p systemd-gui - system and service manager - GUI p systemd-sysv - system and service manager - SysV links That's on a standard wheezy 7.6 system at this time. I don't have gnome installed, but on wheezy, systemd is not a depend for gnome: # aptitude show gnome Wednesday 15 October 14:56:38 EST 2014 -- show gnome Package: gnome State: not installed Version: 1:3.4+7+deb7u1 Priority: optional Section: gnome Maintainer: Debian GNOME Maintainers pkg-gnome-maintain...@lists.alioth.debian.org Architecture: amd64 Uncompressed Size: 53.2 k Depends: gnome-core (= 1:3.4+7+deb7u1), desktop-base, network-manager-gnome (= 0.9.4), aisleriot (= 1:3.4), cheese (= 3.4), evolution (= 3.4), evolution-plugins (= 3.4), file-roller (= 3.4), gedit (= 3.4), gnome-color-manager (= 3.4), gnome-documents (= 0.4), gnome-games (= 1:3.4), gnome-nettool (= 3.2), nautilus-sendto (= 3.0), gnome-orca (= 3.4), rygel-preferences (= 0.14), seahorse (= 3.4), totem (= 3.0), vinagre (= 3.4), alacarte (= 0.13.4), avahi-daemon, gimp (= 2.8), gnome-media (= 3.4), gnome-tweak-tool (= 3.4), hamster-applet (= 2.91.3), inkscape (= 0.48), libreoffice-gnome, libreoffice-writer | abiword (= 2.8), libreoffice-calc | gnumeric (= 1.10), libreoffice-impress, rhythmbox (= 2.96), shotwell, simple-scan, sound-juicer (= 3.4), tomboy (= 1.10) | gnote, tracker-gui, transmission-gtk, xdg-user-dirs-gtk, cups-pk-helper (= 0.2), gedit-plugins (= 3.4), gnome-applets (= 3.4), gnome-shell-extensions (= 3.4), gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg (= 0.10.13), gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly (= 0.10.19), rhythmbox-plugins, rhythmbox-plugin-cdrecorder, rygel-playbin, rygel-tracker, telepathy-gabble, telepathy-rakia, telepathy-salut, totem-plugins, libgtk2-perl (= 1:1.130) Recommends: browser-plugin-gnash, gdebi, gnome-games-extra-data (= 3.0), nautilus-sendto-empathy, telepathy-idle Suggests: dia-gnome, gnome-boxes, gnucash, libreoffice-evolution, planner, iceweasel-l10n-all, xul-ext-adblock-plus, xul-ext-gnome-keyring Description: Full GNOME Desktop Environment, with extra components This is the GNOME Desktop environment, an intuitive and attractive desktop, with extra components. This meta-package depends on the standard distribution of the GNOME desktop environment, plus a complete range of plugins and other applications integrating with GNOME and Debian, providing the best possible environment to date. At a later date, everything changes ... some things later than other things. I guess that gnome's version for 7.6 is too old to /need/ systemd. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ98U4ACgkQqBZry7fv4vsKsgD/ScNMGf7q4cQW9BbZ3NNAxvUN r6msHDtkuylCy+oRD18BAJnhcfU5ojqj6l2eB2X6Hq2d9ylzcd/oKhnbsjkNVtAr =yMUJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543df156.5040...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: debian-advocacy?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 11:01 PM, Richard Owlett wrote: I suspect any list with offtopic in its name will get ignored when there is a large number of people want to say something about a specific topic. Absolutely, it helps hide problems under the rug, so to speak. Definitely not effective or worthwhile. Would a list whose address was debian-user-newfeatures be more attractive? I would think that debian-user should get proper status as a real user discussion list as it is and has been used for since, forever And requests for support should be diverted to debian-user-support as you suggest ... I am not so sure about debian-user-newfeatures as I think that should be part of debian-user, especially if debian-user-support is implemented. So why, exactly, is the design philosophy and architecture of the Debian ecosystem not a legitimate topic for discussion among Debian users? The description of the debian-user list seems to be a misnomer. Perhaps it should read Frontline support for users of the Debian Operating System.? That's a problem in itself. There should be room for real discussion as is taking place here on the debian-user list, without fear of having posts filtered. How about shorter and as explicit - debian-user-support? I'm a new user with little systems background who finds Squeeze LTS will suit my needs for foreseeable future. I'll likely skip Jessie completely. Dust should have settled by then. I'm not so sure that squeeze-lts will be supported well enough for long enough. Hopefully wheezy gets good support with a wheezy-lts. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ9+UcACgkQqBZry7fv4vt1egD/QfXVJckGd5XBUxk2YHX7oh2l Ry4hdd8U/PHgzj9d0zAA/1obnuDoFHelytKRDhDbjBkITHAZ71XJZEsDG1oifii4 =8HRz -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543df94e.5080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 13/10/2014 9:04 AM, lee wrote: Bas Wijnen wij...@debian.org writes: Considering that the users are Debians' priority, couldn't this issue be a case in which significant concerns from/of the users about an issue might initiate a GR? No. Debian is a very elitist organization. The members decide what to do, and nobody else does. As a whole we rule over our users with enlightened absolutism. The main difference with rulers of countries is that our users can go away more easily. ;-) Debian is extremely democratic for its members, but it is utterly undemocratic for its users. And there's nothing wrong with that, IMO. Then they shouldn't say in their social contract that the users and their needs are the priority. Touche. There can be many reasons for why there hasn't been a GR. Some of these may be that the devs/maintainers don't really care about the init system, or that they aren't aware of how far-reaching this issue is. Absolutely, 2000+ posts since the decision... and that's just posts with systemd in the subject line -- it's not 1000+ This is a much more far-reaching issue than many understand, it only started as an init system replace. The systemd people want to make a real operating system out of this and the level of over reach is amazing, their evil plan gets legs when DDs don't understand the scope either as users, sysadmins or just as developers. Unfortunately, it seems that the DDs can't see the bigger picture or there is just far too much apathy to deal with the problem that they've allowed to creep in to place. I think I don't need to convince 6 people on this list because there are already enough people convinced. If 6 or even 60 can't come forward now, that re-enforces the fact that they aren't taking this issue seriously -- non DD users and sysadmins don't count, not even those with a long history of supporting Debian without being DDs. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ7h9kACgkQqBZry7fv4vvHoQEAzBKeYOLkgZqiX6sbEL/UmxOe 29qiFA0iKsak2Cur0qoBAKa4rqnfL5ADjzlaDB/tMngtOdKMToV28zWEqIF8uswY =tY8x -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543b87db.7050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 13/10/2014 11:21 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote: On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote: Those who are most impacted are sys admins of servers, and upstream developers I’m both, and I joined Debian to try to make an impact… - the two communities most impacted, but that seem to have no say in the matter. … but even then, am drowned by the masses. (I did not have the chance to Second the GR proposal because I was not even aware that there *was* one.) Why does that not surprise me, that's really a statement, not a question. It's clear to me that a proposal was being worked on, someone didn't like the way that proposal was going, so they got in with a lesser and somewhat different proposal; and they did this as quickly as they could with the intention to pre-empt the other proposal that didn't get far enough off the ground. Then the new proposer made sure that there was a very hasty vote that wasn't well enough known about. IOW, this all looks very, very political and it looks like the result was destined to go that way. A serious impediment to a GR at this time has to do with all the work that has gone in to Jessie leading up to the freeze that is just around the corner. Had a suitably worded GR got up much sooner and was very well advertised to EVERY DD to make sure they knew of it's existence, then perhaps things might have been very, very different today. OTOH, it has become much more clear that systemd is much more than an init system replacement and aspires to be even much more so [although unfortunately many are ignoring these facts]. At least that understanding should help a good number of DDs whom are paying attention to take the ramifications of the change to systemd default much more seriously. Voting from now onwards [before as well as after the release of Jessie] will likely mean that plenty of DDs wouldn't want to vote to undo any works that were undertaken for the release of Jessie based on the change of the init default to systemd; hopefully that won't taint the result too much. Also, hopefully Ian will get enough private emails to get a GR up and going quickly with the merit of new GR is given proper consideration, such that we can at least have a fair prospect of systemd being removed from being the default init system -- at the very least. Discussion on - -project may still lead to no new or suitable GR, but at least that is a step in the right direction. The next concern I have is whether or not the private emails to Ian should be necessary, why not at least CC that intention to this list so that us users and system administrators can keep abreast of the progress being made. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ79jgACgkQqBZry7fv4vs4BgD/XTLGZ3y5j5dJXLFqJA5G6Hlz GX682njHvQRthgRzRVoA/3C8FVukAS/dk9wUpPXGLw8H4yTcvRCLHX1uT4tSDZUU =kO2T -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543bf63d.5060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: who is looking for a new distro as a result of systemd (particularly server-side users)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 4:24 AM, Curt wrote: On 2014-10-13, Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote: I'm really curious to know how many others here have come to a similar conclusion, and what folks are looking at (in my case, SmartOS is looking better and better). Oh shit. ?? I looked at SmartOS [1] last year, it wasn't ready for my needs then. I would be interested to know where it is at now as I may consider it too. Also, I've sent a request to the debian-bsd list to try and get some answers on the viability of using kFreeBSD going forward -- that is the kFreeBSD future [2] titled thread. My latest post to this thread is too new to give a direct link yet as I just posted about 7 minutes ago. My preferences, for possible least change, would be to go with kFreeBSD, but only if it is going to be around and not become a dead project. However, if SmartOS is now ready for real prime time production use, then I'll certainly consider it. Thanks A. [1] http://smartos.org/ [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/2014/09/msg00280.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8Fl8ACgkQqBZry7fv4vv3xQD+M0wgAOc2owDpkAKflCXwYMie T/XNn7Hr0yL7XzBb2RcBAKq1rFlnUkww6s3lvLDqaIHC8E/3RIpjJwpJwjKuJhpu =Kt8l -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c1664.5080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 5:29 AM, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: Sysvinit-core was introduced in jessie and systemd-sysv conflicts with sysvinit-core. Systemd-sysv is also available in wheezy, but there are 24486 reports from the popcon version 1.61 (testing/unstable) which means only about 1000 of the systemd-sysv installs seem to be from wheezy. So a big majority of the testing/unstable users don't seem to have a problem with systemd, just like a majority of the DDs don't have a problem with systemd or else we would already have had a GR. It would be nice if the minority which doesn't like systemd would just accept that systemd is the default init system in jessie and that the majority of developers and users don't seem to have any problem with that. Such figures are meaningless today. A default desktop install of Jessie will bring in Gnome and as a result will also bring in systemd ... therefore the popcorn figures do not reflect *real* popularity, rather it reflects Gnome installations [mostly]. You want Gnome, you make an *involuntary* /choice/ for systemd, regardless of you probably not wanting or even knowing that you get systemd as part of the deal at first glance and without thinking more about what is offered. It wouldn't surprise me to see many people simply just trying out Gnome, only because it will be the default desktop, again systemd just coming along for the ride. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8JjIACgkQqBZry7fv4vvNlQEAjv3czVrOwjehlG3jpq3pHO9P DqcdcqrT/6mZym3mJ58A/i0Q9W4xxVMvDfQ6DS+cga8NiZ69+DtcsawFPZRGflAo =guzm -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c2634.5060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 5:47 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 13 oct 14, 12:34:27, Miles Fidelman wrote: Again.. when did the desktop become the priority for Debian. For years, Debian (and Linux in general) has been most useful in the server environment. Breaking server deployments, at the expense of the desktop seems like bad policy. Do you have any evidence of systemd breaking your setup? If yes, would you please be so kind to at least file corresponding bugs? It is NOT just about whether a system breaks or not, there are more considerations involved here. Many don't want systemd for all sorts of reasons, system breakage or not is just one reason. systemd: - adds much more than init NOW; - aspires to add much more according to the developers website; - one of the main devs failed many with Pulse Audio; - one other main dev is refused kernel updates by Linus; - production servers /may/ or may not be effected - this risk /may/ be too much, ... it really is a significant change after all. I'm sure there are many more reasons, but that's just a very quick dump for a quick email. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8KF4ACgkQqBZry7fv4vvOjAD9G+Tqvn68c4HkX+x1mCkYTza3 ZtNTVg/+F8TLPyZO41kBAIouPH1lwgcrnNLhcv93ShUIcajdAqKYIVoU6rtlJLMR =RCSC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c2860.9050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 5:56 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 13 oct 14, 12:34:27, Miles Fidelman wrote: Again.. when did the desktop become the priority for Debian. For years, Debian (and Linux in general) has been most useful in the server environment. Breaking server deployments, at the expense of the desktop seems like bad policy. Do you have any evidence of systemd breaking your setup? If yes, would you please be so kind to at least file corresponding bugs? Hell no. I have no time at all for testing at the moment - I've got production systems to maintain, and security holes to patch (I haven't even begun to think how many new security holes sytsemd is going to introduce). A great big +1 from me too. Exactly. Although I'm up with patching, but I most definitely don't want any system that I am responsible to maintain to have systemd installed, it is far too much risk and the changes are not warranted. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8KTcACgkQqBZry7fv4vtBBAEAmDot5L6nHIiNDG/1j1Gl+Dp/ 6QyBY95/UIqN1eqsMsYA/0Sk0JVyzrTeE9K+Be4Zm1cBrS59XmOeXEw0zfAyOHzq =2rt1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c2939.8080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: debian-advocacy?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 6:43 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 13 oct 14, 19:45:03, Anders Wegge Keller wrote: It seems that there's a lot of controversy about the SysV-replacement that should not be named. Most, if not all of the arguments for, as well as against seem to be of a philosophical, rather than stringent technichnical nature. As such, they are probably not suited for this list. So my question as a relative newcomer to the Debian ecosystem is if there is an -advocacy list, where the philosophical differences can be beaten into the ground, while keeping this list at a more factual level? If not, where do I propose the creation of such a list? There's -offtopic (see my .sig), but apparently the anti-systemd crowd wants an audience :( That list is basically irrelevant, no traffic at all, virtually. And yes, the list must have a reasonable audience to be useful. You cannot see this list here: https://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html But if you go to the following link, it is listed: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo October has seen just one post on that list, it is completely useless. It looks like September had 6, 2 of which were spam. Definitely not worth following or posting to that list. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8LaYACgkQqBZry7fv4vs/SQD+MoS8qbQsZm7uaVySBETb0Jpj ICTkB+jzTNiOFbMUkgAA/iJwAOi+YD8kyNxTGWnJUYhK1ndFtB8/UGmF1W2pP05k =V+u5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c2da8.1000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: who is looking for a new distro as a result of systemd (particularly server-side users)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 5:49 AM, Steve Litt wrote: If I were going to give up free software and go proprietary, I'd go Mac. Unfortunately, at this point I'm actually considering Mac as my final backstop. Last I checked, Mac hadn't patch Shellshock properly and the patch they did supply wasn't via normal updates, you had to find it elsewhere as it wasn't considered a good idea(tm) to worry the masses of naive OS X users (even if there are non naive users whom think different). I wouldn't trust Apple at all here, not one bit. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8KjkACgkQqBZry7fv4vsUBQD/bOSswjcx0zWVxoU8LyG3umKl H3DwhXoAIA05JBQ1RHMBAN2pcihv/MgdRXSgWiH4CvW3v2PraLnPFL4Hway1Bl1M =O+ug -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c2a3c.5040...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 6:53 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Ma, 14 oct 14, 06:21:24, Andrew McGlashan wrote: A default desktop install of Jessie will bring in Gnome and as a result will also bring in systemd Small correction here, just to make it 100% clear: A default install of Jessie will bring in systemd, period. Thanks, well that really blows away any reliability of figures used to /justify/ systemd based on popcorn then. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8LoUACgkQqBZry7fv4vsr4QD+J2CZ0IQaCNfYm4khNQVjKKgC bn41eqioXQsPik4tYSMBAJhPN14Tnt3sWjoX/ygq0OwWNol18THBhG94F8iar6Qq =BTlM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c2e86.5060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: debian-advocacy?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 7:18 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Ma, 14 oct 14, 06:53:12, Andrew McGlashan wrote: That list is basically irrelevant, no traffic at all, virtually. That only happens because people insist on posting off-topic stuff to -user instead of -offtopic. Realistically, this is the /only/ list for such types of communications. We have filters and threads, so you can easily deal with extra noise when it comes along. Most noise, unless it is as major as the systemd set of concerns, come and go very quickly and aren't at all cause for concern. Clearly though, when so many people have strong views against a decision that they think is wrong, such as something significant as systemd well we've just got to deal with it too; there is very good reason why this list has exploded over systemd and moderation issues. And absolutely no other place would suit better for Debian users and sysadmins. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8PXwACgkQqBZry7fv4vvhdgEAx/MI1xD88ruMKgg/Rc5VVoGo p5RPxjtsIs+r9GPrufABALtpPZyq0+vwT2YdoFU8W+VEeGAnq7cdVQd6xYGaXn9K =HQCB -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c3d7e.2080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: debian-advocacy?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 8:32 AM, John Hasler wrote: Andrei POPESCU writes: Without an accurate count I'd say only about 1% (or less) of the subscribers are actually participating in these discussion. 1% participation in any discussion on a list such as this would be very large. Passing a GR to take Debian closed-source and relicense everything under the Microsoft EULA probably wouldn't get 2% to speak up. (No, I'm not proposing that nor do I think that it could happen.) Hahaha M$ EULA I'm sure if they are watching, they'll be laughing their own heads off over the debacle of systemd for Linux (not just for Debian). Yes, of Debian user base, subscribers vs posters, 1% is huge! We aren't talking about a hobby project here -- most users are able to deal with many problems without needing to post to DU list. Many watch and never respond. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8RjUACgkQqBZry7fv4vuhsAEAgDTdU9WRe7R6m3gDMm3HQcx4 ZFTrhxtUxbajghT5X64BANSzpehDmyLI/H0XEL+A74c4HqQZ5bEVQXE1ruilxD5O =nGax -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c4636.2030...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: debian-advocacy?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 8:19 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: In my opinion this is the very definition of vocal minority. Vocal minority, looking after the interests of many more whom will be yet to learn of the facts at some stage. but otherwise have no reason to think something could change so drastically with Debian stable release. ;-) A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8RtUACgkQqBZry7fv4vtNsQEAixZ8JbMVgjz9UoQ9h4xtnGBl JRj2M+CcrRNNvl7e7NMA/2Agt6KbHHRt4XSgw/7OuZ/cLrIrEx2YfHXPTh/+vImJ =lGN7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c46d6.6070...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 9:11 AM, Brian wrote: On Tue 14 Oct 2014 at 06:34:17 +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote: Although I'm up with patching, but I most definitely don't want any system that I am responsible to maintain to have systemd installed, it is far too much risk and the changes are not warranted. Are you incapable of reading what is on debian-user, even threads you have participated in in the past few days? Not having systemd as PID 1 is so easy it's unbelievable. PID 1 is not even relevant as far as I'm concerned. I've participated here and also on other Linux related lists that are local to my residence. Read my posts, there are lots of reasons why I don't want systemd, PID 1 is something I've never mentioned myself until now. I do not want systemd, period. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8X1YACgkQqBZry7fv4vuvjgD7BeRMnapgrKoNIQ0vKYnQIM7t p7vAK5Lx7d6yiyug9YwA/iEQr6WqPXgt8YzrOxClNisevtmrNFyhlVhO1a9cdRcd =kOxi -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c5f5c.7060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/10/2014 9:50 AM, Joey Hess wrote: Sysvinit will continue to be supported on servers in Debian 8 (jessie) release of Debian. So you can continue to boot your production servers with sysvinit. Okay, for now, that is until more packages decide that they can't do without systemd. A reasonably proactive admin would probably want to try out systemd (on eg, a test server) and if it causes problems for their deployment, they then have at least the year or two from when Debian jessie is released until the *next* release to file bug reports and follow up on them. Why would I ever do that, I want systemd to NOT exist. Therefore I'm not going to run it on ANYTHING, ANYWHERE. I should be able to manage a FreeBSD replacement, perhaps SmartOS, or if I'm lucky and kFreeBSD holds out and is viable, then I'll use that. Meat Loaf [1] - I'll do anything for love [in this case, my servers], but I won't do THAT [systemd] ... ;-) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27d_Do_Anything_for_Love_(But_I_Won%27t_Do_That) A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ8Yu4ACgkQqBZry7fv4vsP7wD+KogtTP1umvy+PFFIwp+u4VVY I7usNJRQk0/TeS94+pcA/RXJY7iHmBIaRjJQQ1kkz5dlVZMF6lYERBVrtz6PDAGS =w57c -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543c62f2.1070...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Moderated posts?
On 13/10/2014 2:34 AM, Martin Read wrote: On 12/10/14 15:53, lee wrote: And when they are filtered, does the sender get a message telling him that their message hasn't been delivered? The requirement in RFC 2821 (the successor to RFC 821 which you've recently been referring to) section 4.2.5 that a server which issues a 2yz completion status after final dot must return appropriate notification to the sender cannot be fulfilled is an unreasonable demand in the modern era. If you wait for all filtering to complete before issuing a response to final dot, your mail server is vulnerable to denial-of-service attacks unless you undercook your filtering; if you issue a 2yz status before filtering is complete, then send the notifications demanded by RFC 2821 if the deferred filtering results in a rejection, your mail server is now a public nuisance because of the amount of backscatter it generates. Yes, but I think the mail is properly delivered and not filtered by the receiving mail list server; it is later checked over by some process of the list-master [automatic, scripted, manual or a combination thereof] -- yes, we now have a list-master that we never had before. It should be the responsibility of the list-master to provide return emails to person(s) effected. I've also put it to that person (assuming the one whom email me is the list-master), that we need a list where we can talk more freely about our concerns -- this list seems to have been over reaching on it's goals since ... forever, now the powers that be have decided to clamp down hard, hence the filtered/moderated posts that we all know about and which cannot be denied as it has been fully proven. I could be speaking too soon, but either the list has died down a little on systemd as a result of people having enough of trying to bang their head against a brick wall -- or the filtering has ramped up a level now. There is an amazing level of resistance to care what us users and sysadmins think of the changes dictated by the vote of the Tech CTTE and such consequences. One can only hope the message is finally getting through to at least enough DDs to result in an appropriate GR that leads to a genuine and fair vote to put this matter to bed. At least then, we'll know if we need to jump ship to perhaps kFreeBSD, FreeBSD or some other Linux that refuses to be roped in to the systemd nightmare that we are seeing strong evidence of here. Myself, I would be looking at kFreeBSD as the next best alternative and if that suffers over this, then a full migration away from Debian to a direct use of FreeBSD. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543aa33a.8040...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Moderated posts?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 13/10/2014 3:45 AM, The Wanderer wrote: My understanding is that the only filtering which has been stated to be being used is not keyword-based, but thread-based. That is, if the post is in a thread which has been added to the filter list, then it is automatically filtered out without notification and without regard to its contents. It's not on thread. I started a very simple threads with the simple subject systemd [1], two responses got through, I tried to respond to one of the respondents and my messages were dropped -- there was nothing /bad/ in any way in my responses, but they never made the list. After seeing this particular thread, post [2] in particular, I did a test and immediately my test response got through ... it was definitely QED. $ sed 's/s.st.md/the Rabbit of Caerbannog/' As soon as I had a different subject, the message got through - that was after 3 failed attempts to resend the same message which had been blocked, silently. Then new messages stopped again, so I changed just the subject line once again and my message got through. $ sed 's/s.st.md/killer bunny/' So, yes, it was absolutely proved beyond doubt. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/10/msg00234.html [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/10/msg00442.html A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF0EAREIAAYFAlQ6v9gACgkQqBZry7fv4vucWwD3UswAhnRn3DjChpu7CZIyfRJK pA5BRC8bnyg3qDVOHwD+M5F+K/ds1GnD3Chr/H4FZjqoeSDvX1Ip9WFndpJieLQ= =kIG5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543abfdb.6030...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Moderated posts?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 13/10/2014 4:22 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 13 oct 14, 02:50:18, Andrew McGlashan wrote: There is an amazing level of resistance to care what us users and sysadmins think of the changes dictated by the vote of the Tech CTTE and such consequences. One can only hope the message is finally getting through to at least enough DDs to result in an appropriate GR that leads to a genuine and fair vote to put this matter to bed. At least then, we'll know if we need to jump ship to perhaps kFreeBSD, FreeBSD or some other Linux that refuses to be roped in to the systemd nightmare that we are seeing strong evidence of here. Myself, I would be looking at kFreeBSD as the next best alternative and if that suffers over this, then a full migration away from Debian to a direct use of FreeBSD. You seem to be ignoring some facts: Believe me, I tried to ignore all the noise of the systemd threads, then I decided to look a bit further -- perhaps you should too. - you don't speak for the users, at least not for me, but certainly at least a few other subscribers (though I guess a lot of them actually) Sure, I don't speak for you, but I am definitely seeing lots of people with very genuine problems and those people are being ignored. I initially thought, what the heck, why should I worry about this at all - -- I just though, well systemd is a forgone conclusion, why all the whingers? But as I said, I read more closely and widely and realized that the whingers were doing Debian a real service and not the other way around. - you seem to forget that DDs are users too, yet the proposed GR didn't even get the minimum required number of sponsors (5). I expect it will happen, so long as people are serious about the real effects of this very negative change to Debian defaults, irregardless of the ability to [in the short term], remove systemd and re-instate sysvinit if you know what you are doing. However, as you most probably realize, the tyranny of the default is our enemy here and all those package builders/maintainers that are needlessly following as sheep to the slaughter, siding with systemd for whatever reason .. well we've got a very serious problem indeed. Does the term vocal minority mean anything to you? No, read above. I initially thought the same, but have since learnt otherwise. Please take the time to read through posts and show some real empathy for the problems presented by real users and NOT by a small vocal minority. You want some more evidence that this is a huge abomination? Have a look at the following: quote from another on a different list My take is Red Hat has the money and the grunt to shove it all the way they want to go. But how many enterprise systems with QA plus other such procedures will want to install something that is still evolving and probably could not be considered stable with transparent processes and development direction? Unless its all about RH offering sweet microsoft-like deals to have enterprises adopt it. Well maybe dunno. The big silence in this whole debate, and some of you guys now I'm a rusted on slacker, is how Pat Volkerding will play it. Eric Hammleers, core contributor to Slackware maintains a rolling set of KDE packages that follow right behind KDE releases, one might say he's rusted on to KDE. However, in his blog he has recently written: Of course, the ConsoleKit successor systemd-logind, written by the same team that gave us all the *Kit crap, depends on PAM which we also do not have in Slackware. One of the fellow core developers in Slackware, who is intimately familiar with the KDE developers community, has heard from multiple sources that KDE is moving towards a hard dependency on systemd (probably because they are going to need the functionality of systemd-logind). We all know what that means, folks! It will be the day that I must stop delivering you new KDE package releases for Slackware. That’ll be the day. http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/on-lkml-an-open-letter-to-the-linux-world/ I recon the fat lady will start singing sometime after Pat Volkerding makes up his mind. I wonder what'd be happening now if Ian Murdock and Pat Volkerding had merged Debian and Slackware as they were discussing around 20 years ago. /quote A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ6wiMACgkQqBZry7fv4vtbYQEAoe62Tcb9vZIqDN8uZwsoo/d7 1DHRFirY1P2DGEv6G1MA/AxhNjdNxY17PR3iZNhjPchELNqzQDw7LyZv5xRaFIVh =dnHd -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543ac227.4000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Moderated posts?
On 13/10/2014 5:48 AM, Brian wrote: On Mon 13 Oct 2014 at 05:02:15 +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote: Not a single one of these people have a *genuine* problem with systemd on Debian. The first port of call for genuine problems with systemd is the mailing list at pkg-systemd-maintainers.lists.alioth.debian.org. They do not post there. Look here, look much harder, because you seem to have blinkers on. initially thought, what the heck, why should I worry about this at all - -- I just though, well systemd is a forgone conclusion, why all the whingers? But as I said, I read more closely and widely and realized that the whingers were doing Debian a real service and not the other way around. Your initial gut feeling was correct; they are whingers. No. There are very serious problems with the change for all sorts of reasons for all sorts of users. Even in terms of upgrades and ongoing use of production systems, that alone is significant. I've snipped the rest because it appears to be a rehash of part of the Rebellion manifesto. You mean, the anti-rebellion? A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543ae7d2.3000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: question about systemd
On 10/10/2014 8:44 AM, James Ensor wrote: But, to get more to the point of my original question, there has been so much discussion about systemd here, but as far as I can tell very little of this discussion has been of practical use for a debian-user. Are you crazy, people are having problems -- left, right and center! How do DDs think it's going to get better when systemd becomes the tyranny of default? This is madness. More experiences sysadmins can deal with this more easily than newer users whom will come along, be baffled and go away -- unless they are extremely lucky not to have had any issues out of the box. For all those sysadmins that need to keep production servers in full and normal operation, systemd will be a nightmarre. It sure might be as simple as uninstall systemd after making sure sysvinit pieces are there, but that will be a horrible kludge. Please DDs get that GR happening before Debian is history over this crazy change. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5439e674.9010...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: question about systemd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 11/10/2014 2:01 AM, James Ensor wrote: The point of this thread was to demonstrate that you *do* still have a choice. It's relatively simple to remove systemd from your Debian installation if you choose to. In the short term, sure, but in the long term, we are so screwed if this change remains. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ56kAACgkQqBZry7fv4vsjcwD9H6sVO8+9/0ClMaiUV6RxzMnd MgNPBroUeWEKsoIKAosBAJi5b85GDx083TuwYkxSI06geORoz6v0NKpINYD40MWW =8Rvm -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5439ea42.8090...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: question about systemd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 12/10/2014 4:01 AM, James Ensor wrote: What I was trying to say here is that people seem to want to debate the philosophy/quality/whatever about systemd, and have used this to come to wrong conclusions about the practical aspect of using an alternate init system. That's just the nub of it, it /started/ as an init replacement and it has grown well beyond that [already] and is planned to grow much further beyond in order to make a *real operating system* -- watch the video from LCA conf from Perth... A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ584kACgkQqBZry7fv4vvmpwD7BYLJzaQAe+/BS1N59oIDPsB+ Z1o1zRNutNohGgRHjS0BAKHexPn16yFPSFIzw3fNeVWwhpVG00WKq3BNZlHXqTA6 =wCFC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5439f38c.7030...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Moderated posts?
On Tue, Oct 07, 2014 at 06:52:20PM +0100, Brian wrote: If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X Ironic signature there... Isn't that how the /filtered/ posts are supposed to work too? Just trying to do what mas media does best, but for the Debian User mailing list ... :( We are *supposed* to love systemd and *hate* sysvinit ... that's what the list filtering / moderation is trying to do. At very minimum, hide the fact as much as possible that systemd is considered a mistake by so many! Not happy A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54362cb0.5020...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: killer bunny
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 9/10/2014 10:47 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: On 9/10/2014 10:40 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: Hi, $ sed 's/s.st.md/killer bunny/' * it looks like the filtering has been adjusted * re-sending The more I read about the use of this *special* package, the more I understand how deep this is as a disaster. If you think otherwise, keep reading, the horror stories are there for everyone to see, even if new horror stories are /hidden/ from view by moderation and/or filtering! When you too are convinced that the package is a disaster, then you might have read enough -- until then please keep reading and to any DDs out there with a conscience, please make sure a GR gets up to address this ASAP or there will be a mass exodus of users when they are forced to live with this package at some time in the future -- for many, in the meantime, they'll manage to avoid it, at least until they can't possibly avoid it. The default gnome desktop is going to make it harder to ignore and much more likely to provide many more horror stories. I can't be more blunt than that. THIS IS A COMPLETE DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN. Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ2hb0ACgkQqBZry7fv4vvG0QEAyJQgq0RIi1VZn1s0AeQ/huIF mZANaqNHc2Qw5ghllLcBAIuc4lfQtrdAZst1/qhtcNzBHK+tdPQW7fFgiuowLbp6 =O5cs -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543685c0.6080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: the Rabbit of Caerbannog
Hi, $ sed 's/s.st.md/the Rabbit of Caerbannog/' I'm getting really pissed off, why aren't my messages getting through? I'm entitled to an opinion just like everybody else. Refer this thread too: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/10/msg00424.html [titled Moderated Posts? ... they most certainly are! This post says plenty from that thread: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/10/msg00442.html What the heck is going on? My posts are not making it to the list, why? Re-sending a third time. Please respect my posts. I am resending this because I sent it much earlier and it didn't come through?? Are posts being moderated, posts that are not in line with CTTE views? On 5/10/2014 7:44 AM, John Hasler wrote: Andrew McGlashan writes: My view is that the Rabbit of Caerbannog is a forgone conclusion and no-one whom hasdecided that it should be will be convinced otherwise. the Rabbit of Caerbannog as *default* is decided. the Rabbit of Caerbannog as *required* most certainly is not: quite the contrary. There will be alternatives as long as there are developers willing to support them (of course if no one uses those alternatives no one will support them). There may be packages into which the upstream authors have twisted the Rabbit of Caerbannog dependencies inextricably, but that is not anything Debian can change. If the Rabbit of Caerbannog is not *required* ... and if it is so easy to remain the Rabbit of Caerbannog free, then why are upstream having dependencies on the Rabbit of Caerbannog? Debian needs to be 100% the Rabbit of Caerbannog free as far as I am concerned; that means putting pressure on upstream to NOT require the Rabbit of Caerbannog. Packages should only depend on other packages if they provide features that don't need to be re-invented [thus re-use common components that make sense] AND they should be made fully compatible with various startup options for systems that they wish to support. Supporting various options should not be an issue, just look to the boot time desktop options on something like black arch. You have the base, then you can choose from a range of desktop options, they all work. Code that relies on the Rabbit of Caerbannog or sysvinit (but not both), needs to fixed to support both out of the box -- if you have the Rabbit of Caerbannog, do this, if you have sysvinit, do that ... it shouldn't be much more code unless the code base is very broken. [1] http://blackarch.org/about.html Cheers A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5435cb57.5000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: the Rabbit of Caerbannog
On 9/10/2014 10:40 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: Hi, $ sed 's/s.st.md/the Rabbit of Caerbannog/' Bingo!!! Definitely moderated posts! :( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5435cd00.6080...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Moderated posts?
Definitely moderated posts: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/10/msg00602.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/10/msg00603.html :( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5435d212.7050...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Moderated posts?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 9/10/2014 7:01 AM, Brian wrote: No problem, just don't killfile incoming messages. Problem solved. But if you *do*, then say you did it and say why. Otherwise, don't killfile incoming message. From less than 7 days ago: https://lists.debian.org/20141004120721.20751...@mydesq2.domain.cxm The first thing I did when I got here was redirect about ten people to /dev/null. That was the only way I could have stayed here. Looks like a clear case of do as I say, not as I do. No, he is talking about silently killing mail to the list in general not mail that he wants to accept and see personally -- they are two very different things. It seems to me that Debian has decided that systemd is *the way*, and it's either *the way* or *the highway* ... take your pick. Any discussion that deviates from the Debian decision is going to be seen as a troll response, regardless of it's merit otherwise. Hence, systemd is a forgone conclusion and any Debian users will be ignored, even silently, in the hope that the issue just goes away, rather than addressing it properly. Cheers A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQ13L0ACgkQqBZry7fv4vstCgEAyjFC585zPdDanBrGBIWW0WMB Xz65ls86rI07+bArE9cA/AnIUCa+ZNz+yhSZegczDYJzn+1JTAvr+wSiHS1s2oyM =gEPe -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5435dcbf.9070...@affinityvision.com.au
systemd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Do I want systemd ? - definitely and absolutely NO. Is there any point arguing here in debian-user ? - definitely NOT. My view is that systemd is a forgone conclusion and no-one whom has decided that it should be will be convinced otherwise. I cannot agree that systemd is better over sysvinit and I don't expect that to ever change. There is NOTHING wrong with sysvinit, there is something wrong with blaming sysvinit for other startup issues that had/have been done incorrectly. A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQwT8EACgkQqBZry7fv4vs8DwD/Srx/9mDCToRVflGqEbiHr3QS ODEjF2fwYVjLSMitxm8A/0wNt7h+FHFDgyU23r1EtIO4K+4sfguAJHsEQNH1PyQh =1Oh+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54304fda.1060...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: MDADM RAID1 of external USB 3.0 Drives
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, I'm going to address a number of things here First off, I used to use this script [1], with an entry in /etc/rc.local to kick it off on boot. My goal was to start the RAID1 array only if 2 members could be found (minimum), I added a 3rd member that was for backup. My process was to: a) shutdown the box b) remove the /oldest/ drive c) move drives 1 and 2 along the /chain/ d) restart the system with only 2 drives attached e) add a drive from off-site storage into position f) let it start the array with two disks ... and then add the 3rd one to re-sync the data. Here is the supporting /etc/rc.local entry for the mount script: nohup /usr/local/bin/mount-external-raid-devices.sh 21 /dev/null And this is what the parameter file looked like: md0-vg-external-1-u1-wrk 06fd3d46-4c33-7670-edd8-d016611227ea 2 60 When all three disks were up to date, I would do the process again. I never wanted the RAID1 array to start if it only found one disk. Sometimes one or more of the external USB 2.0 (at the time) drive(s) wouldn't fire up properly, hence the need for the script. I was using an older Dell GX520 box, I later started using a HP MicroServer N54L -- these boxes are very, very cheap and come with 2GB of RAM, which should be plenty for this type of use. However, I found out that I could install 16GB of RAM in to it and I like to max out RAM when I can, so I did that; the RAM wasn't cheap, but it did work regardless of HP saying it was only good for 8GB max. Now the cost of the N54L was around the same as recent a 4TB WD Red drive, only slightly more. The N54L doesn't have any USB 3.0 ports, but you can install a card for it if you need one. I've since started using a different box, Thecus N4800eco ... they are more expensive, but still good value and they do have USB 3.0 ports available as well as a nice internal SATA type stick, which is ideal for /boot file system and I can use 4 large capacity disks with LUKS (root file system is LUKS too). Whilst it is usually quite easy to find older server class hardware at bargain prices (compared to new), it is often the case that older hardware is slower and much less power efficient to newer hardware and the pricing on lots of new gear has collapsed enough to make buying new a much better option in many cases. [1] http://ix.io/epu Kind Regards AndrewM -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQdwKsACgkQqBZry7fv4vtWdAD/ZtNuP+VXB8LPhjpruDp7KhTo lUgiWs4BjMTmfRrIe+8A/32FC3oBKQEzW5RGps5sai7nSqLGqegZyr4QIbzussKq =yXX5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/541dc0b0.9000...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: MDADM RAID1 of external USB 3.0 Drives
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 21/09/2014 4:00 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: First off, I used to use this script [1], with an entry in /etc/rc.local to kick it off on boot. My goal was to start the RAID1 array only if 2 members could be found (minimum), I added a 3rd member that was for backup. My process was to: There was this required file as well # cat /usr/local/etc/06fd3d46-4c33-7670-edd8-d016611227ea.cmds /sbin/mdadm --assemble /dev/md0 /sbin/vgscan /sbin/vgchange -ay vg-external-1 /bin/mount /u1 /bin/mount /bin/df -Th /bin/date /sbin/mdadm -D /dev/md0 /bin/cat /proc/mdstat A. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iF4EAREIAAYFAlQdyTMACgkQqBZry7fv4vsLJwEAwf5GvDRU0JTnCswOtn4Lpnyc bgXW5fGtVitfKj5jG9oBAJYRpqbcCBZRx5cvV0H5Do8DHmtPOckBN8gBitqtqXTl =SR5Y -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/541dc934.90...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: Skype substitutes for current Debian?
On 20/08/2014 12:22 AM, Ralph Katz wrote: Steve Gibson reports, Secure browser connections can be intercepted and decrypted... Worth a look: https://www.grc.com/fingerprints.htm Got a good fingerprint in my browser, it matches from the Gibson tool 2C:A6:F7:D4:76:A4:B9:BF:2D:85:88:4B:71:B9:46:4D:6D:E8:F6:81 [I am also in AU like Bret Busby, but on the East side, whilst he is on the West side...] Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: IP Forwarding to Windows machine
On 10/08/2014 10:06 AM, Mike McClain wrote: Please describe your network topology. Where's the Win2k box ? __ | Debian| LAN| Windows 2000 | Inet|Linux|-| S40 | (ppp) | 192.168.1.2 | cross-over| 192.168.1.3 | |_| |___| What's S40 ? S40 short for south40 the name of the Win2K box. You do know that Windows 2000 is very old and hasn't been supported for an eternity in /IT/ years? I wouldn't trust the box these days, it's like running an unregistered and roadworthy motor car... I give another vote for IPCop btw that or pfsense, but IPCop is simpler. Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: /dev/random5
On 4/08/2014 7:51 PM, Joel Rees wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au wrote: [...] If you do the /dev/zero against a volume, then no useful data will remain on that volume ... you need to backup that file system first, then restore it after you re-create the file system again. Well, that depends on a number of things. In the worst case scenario, electron microscopes have a much easier time recovering data overwritten with zeros than data overwritten with random stuff. Okay, so that means, if you are that paranoid, then do /dev/urandom a few times before you do anything else ;-) Just the same, I think it was something that people worried about, but no-one has ever been subject to this kind of /attack/ Also, I understand that there are some very intelligent controllers that compress zeroed blocks and other such helpful things. That wouldn't matter post luksFormat, it would pre though. Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: /dev/random5
On 4/08/2014 5:43 AM, David Christensen wrote: On 08/03/2014 10:45 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: On 3/08/2014 10:48 PM, B wrote: On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 18:20:19 +1000 I do not agree with that because using only zeros makes the result part predictable for the attacker: Yes, but the method of encryption used (aes-xts-plain64) does NOT lend itself to this kind of analysis. The cryptsetup FAQ documentation covers my use of /dev/zero we've had this discussion before ;-) https://code.google.com/p/cryptsetup/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions#2._Setup See step 6, If I've already created an ext4 file system within the LUKS container and copied in data, would unmounting the file system and running zerofree against the /dev/mapper/* device be reasonable? If you do the /dev/zero against a volume, then no useful data will remain on that volume ... you need to backup that file system first, then restore it after you re-create the file system again. http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/uml/index.html The zerofree option looks interesting and useful, wonder how well it will work in practice. As I understand it, step 6 will put encrypted zero blocks into disk blocks (e.g. apparently random data on the disk blocks) corresponding to the LUKS container, but will not touch disk blocks outside of the LUKS container. So, any disk blocks not otherwise written by the partitioner (parted) and/or LUKS (cryptsetup) will contain whatever they had previously. Step 3 is the overkill method for precluding disk blocks with leftover data, and has been my practice. If I know that I will be setting up a GPT partition table with one primary partition for LUKS that uses all available LBA's aligned to 1 MB boundaries, zeroing (/dev/urandom?) the first and last megabyte of disk blocks, partitioning, setting up LUKS in partition one, and zeroing the LUKS /dev/mapper/* device (step 6) should get all disk blocks, right? Yes, that is right according to my understanding. Just don't use defaults; Which parameters? What values instead? Here is an example of what I do when setting up LUKS volumes. # cryptsetup -c aes-xts-plain64 -s 512 -h sha512 -i 6000 \ -y --use-random luksFormat /dev/md3 An earlier message had more details and it was suggested that you don't want xts ... after I sent it; but I'm not yet sure about that. It seems that with FDE there is apparently a better option; but the author considered FDE as a last ditch effort, preferring multiple encryption choices on files or file systems (encfs like). After my brief reading, I'm not yet convinced but I might be soon. I'll have to revisit that at another time though. For now aes-xts-plain64 is good enough for me (even if less good than another option which may or may not be available with LUKS) ... at least until I can discover more with the luxury of more time being available to do so. I do disk mirroring first, then LUKS encryption on the mirror and the LUKS volume [container], apply the /dev/zero process and eventually it becomes an LVM2 volume group which then has LVM2 logical volumes as needed. Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Skype access cancelled for Debian versions before 7
Hi Bret, On 3/08/2014 8:47 PM, Bret Busby wrote: Actually we are subject to a bill of rights, see here: http://www.clrg.info/2011/02/validity-of-bill-of-rights-1688/ That applies only to Victoria - I believe that, like motor vehicle roadworthiness testing, human rights legislation applies to only two states of Australia. I apologise - after posting my response, I realise that the material on that web page, went beyond the first letter, which applies only to Victoria. Thus, that web page relates to two other states, I believ, in addition to Victoria. Even so, it might be something that could be challenged by other states if needed. However, please read the text below, and, please read the citation of what Michael Kirby said - he is much more an authority on the matter, at the Australian federal level. Thanks. I wonder about Kirby myself. To me, it shouldn't be the court deciding a matter of fact via *their* opinion. If the law says xa and the opinion says xb ... then it is up to the parliament to correct the situation if it is faulty, not the courts to decide xb instead of the letter of the law that is xa. I could never understand how the courts could get away with that. Judges should not be judge and jury as they often are, they should only rely on the facts, 100% facts of the law, not their opinion to make a judgement against the facts and Kirby seems to be a great offender of my view of what is required here. Don't let them screw with our constitution either, under false pretenses. Local councils corporations operate as local government bodies today, but without the rights to do what they are doing ... legitimize those corporations and they'll go gang busters -- give them an inch, they'll take a 100 miles! It depends on how you regard the status of local governments in Australia. We are over-governed already, I DO NOT EVER want local council corporations getting more power than they already have; heck I'm not even sure there is a place for local government meddling at all, let alone all their fees and /localized/ sub-laws (that should not be binding on the people). Already they have far too much power and they are just corporations that we are effectively *forced* to do business with whether we like it or not! And as for the recognition of Aboriginals in AU ... that is also completely unnecessary; any person, no matter what, if they set foot in Australian, then they are covered by our constitution. Aboriginals are no different to other Australians, every person is covered. They want to screw the Constitution under the guise of /fixing/ these things, instead they'll f*** things right up and we'll lose even more rights. Regarding the issue of the Aboriginals, and, any other race; I do not know whether you have read the Australian Constitution Act, but, apartheid (= apartness - racial segregation and racial discrimination) is constitutionally legal and enforceable, in Australia. Regardless of that fact, if it is true or not, it is not practiced in this day and age. It is completely unnecessary to risk changing the Constitution to fix this issue that is /fixed/ otherwise current practices and other laws relating to how all persons are treated in AU. We don't have slavery and separation in AU, and if there was a problem then it is often addressed via the guilt adverts. like those of Adam Goodes (an AFL footballer). We have full integration as a multi-cultural society and non-racist people are by far the majority in many areas of AU. There may well be more of an issue of reverse discrimination trying to right the wrongs of the past, that's another matter, not one that needs constitutional *destruction*. Leave the AU Constitution in tact, create new laws if necessary, but only if necessary to /fix/ issues and problems that really do need to be addressed, but definitely do not risk the integrity of the Constitution under any circumstances, it really is not worth the risk and changes may very well lead to it being effectively useless, ala not worth the paper it is printed on. Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Desktop sharing question
On 25/07/2014 11:17 PM, Nelson Green wrote: On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 10:52 AM, B lazyvi...@gmx.com wrote: On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:36:47 -0500 Nelson Green nelsongree...@gmail.com wrote: Good morning all, Good afternoon alone, PC. I would like to be able to share his desktop to me so that I can see what he is seeing and offer instruction and advice. I have Use X2GO (x2go.org), it includes a 'desktop sharing' function and just need an access to the SSH port. Furthermore, is uses NX libraries, greatly accelerating graphic transfers (compared yo VNC). You can also access it without a password (you'll need the other side 'id_rsa' private key, though). This looks promising. I will do some reading and see if I can get something set up this weekend. Don't know if this FLOSS video will be useful, haven't watched it yet: http://twit.tv/show/floss-weekly/295 Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: End of hypocrisy ?
My own view is why systemd fix sysinit instead, where it is broken or rather the packages [whatever they are] that don't work properly. systemd gives faster boot times, so what! I prefer to boot less often and run with what works until I /have/ to do a reboot, so it wouldn't matter if it took 10 times as long to boot. Improving boot times is just like overclocking for games, it is largely irrelevant and something to boast about ... ie, no real benefit. IOW systemd is a great big waste of time and resources. I don't want to know anything more about systemd, unless I am forced to deal with it, I won't be. Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Australian law was: Re: Skype access cancelled for Debian versions before 7
On 4/08/2014 9:04 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Monday 04 August 2014 09:44:31 Andrew McGlashan wrote: I wonder about Kirby myself. To me, it shouldn't be the court deciding a matter of fact via *their* opinion. If the law says xa and the opinion says xb ... then it is up to the parliament to correct the situation if it is faulty, not the courts to decide xb instead of the letter of the law that is xa. I could never understand how the courts could get away with that. Judges should not be judge and jury as they often are, they should only rely on the facts, 100% facts of the law, not their opinion to make a judgement against the facts and Kirby seems to be a great offender of my view of what is required here. Australia uses English Law, i.e. Common Law. This paragraph is therefore, I'm afraid, simply wrong. You are recognising Statute Law, and ignoring Common Law. Common Law is at least as important, and goes back a lot further. It *is* the courts that decide and not Parliament. Even with Statute Law, it is the courts which decide what it means and how it is to be applied. One can argue that there is a lot wrong with English Law. I frequently do. But it is, as a matter of fact, much as you or I or anyone else may dislike it, the courts that decide the facts and not Parliament. A barrister can give an opinion. A judge decides the facts (as they stand in law, which may bear very little resemblance to the real world). The common law system, as developed in the United Kingdom, forms the basis of Australian jurisprudence. http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/legal_system.html Yes, I do understand what you are saying. If the law is open to interpretation, then chances are it hasn't been written properly. It should be black and white ... that's why people get away with loopholes. A judge should adjudicate according to the facts, not according to /his or her/ opinion of those facts and how they relate to the actual law. The judge's opinion should come in to sentencing, rather than guilt or innocence. If that is not true, then it's just another reason to call the law an ass. And sure, if there are natural common law rights that are being trampled by the statute law, then perhaps then the statute is invalid and it should be referred back to parliament to fix the law to suit the facts and/or intention appropriately. Thanks Lisi. Cheers A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53df7c66.7010...@affinityvision.com.au
Re: What is the connection between Microsoft and systemd?
On 4/08/2014 9:13 PM, Jeff Bauer wrote: The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity. - Abraham Lincoln Now THAT is truly funny! Thanks A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: End of hypocrisy ?
On 4/08/2014 10:03 PM, Raffaele Morelli wrote: I've seen tons of posts sent to this list about systemd... bla bla bla... and did not understand what's the matter with it. I wonder what are you all doing with your init scripts which doesn't work with systemd. So what? If it isn't broken, why change it? For the sake of ultra fast initial boot? Again, fix the packages that are broke and don't work without systemd. Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: End of hypocrisy ?
On 4/08/2014 11:35 PM, Raffaele Morelli wrote: 2014-08-04 15:11 GMT+02:00 Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au mailto:andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au: On 4/08/2014 10:03 PM, Raffaele Morelli wrote: I've seen tons of posts sent to this list about systemd... bla bla bla... and did not understand what's the matter with it. I wonder what are you all doing with your init scripts which doesn't work with systemd. So what? If it isn't broken, why change it? For the sake of ultra fast initial boot? Again, fix the packages that are broke and don't work without systemd. debian packages are not on-demand services, you should apply to fix whatever packages you are referring to or give up crying to mailing list feets (still wonder what you all are complaining for). My point is that no packages should rely on systemd, to me, that makes no sense. What you call ultra fast initial boot is being addressed as parallelization (and I guess you've never been stuck on a remote server because apache ssl is waiting for you at password prompt) In such a case, you start ssh early and apache2 later ... that's all very possible without systemd not broken doesn't mean good, OSS is not broken but ALSA took place over it (god bless). True, but why is systemd actually better and why are so many people up in arms about it? Even indicating that they'll choose another distro or worse, leave Linux altogether because of it? Oh and to that other poster Linux will always be able to boot faster than Windows, but it depends on many factors. Again, boot time isn't usually an issue until such time as a long running machine has to do an obligatory fsck on the way up with a very large file system. Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: End of hypocrisy ?
On 4/08/2014 11:32 PM, Tom H wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 6:37 AM, Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au wrote: My own view is why systemd fix sysinit instead, where it is broken or rather the packages [whatever they are] that don't work properly. Who should fix sysvinit? The upstream sysvinit developers are DDs and they didn't do it (I'm not blaming them, I'm just noting that fact). Yes, that's what I meant, sysvinit is not broken. systemd gives faster boot times, so what! I prefer to boot less often and run with what works until I /have/ to do a reboot, so it wouldn't matter if it took 10 times as long to boot. Improving boot times is just like overclocking for games, it is largely irrelevant and something to boast about ... ie, no real benefit. Boot speed might not be an important feature for you but for organizations with 1000s of servers, the faster the better. Sure it counts, but if you have 1000s of servers, you likely have many other considerations and you'll be pooling [at least] those servers in a cluster type arrangement ... much lessening the need for any machine to startup so quickly. Cheers A. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
