Re: upgrading ubuntu to debian

[Joe Hart]

On Thursday 30 August 2007 20:19:06 Britton Kerin wrote:
 I just bought a computer that came with ubuntu and would like to switch
 it to pure debian.  Is there a standard way to do this that someone
 could point me to?

 (Though I will say that little hack where the shell tells you which
  package a program is in looks pretty cute and helpful :)

 Thanks,
 Britton

There are plenty of messages in this thread to make one think that it is 
possible to convert from Debian to Ubuntu and vice versa, but let me point 
out one thing that many have overlooked.

Since Ubuntu uses sudo for everything, when using programs that require root 
access expect the user password, not the root one.  So if you enable the root 
account, you might think, OK, I need to use the root password here (after all 
early versions of Ubuntu actually asked for the root password) but no, it 
still wants the user password (the first user, who is defined in the sudoers 
file)

AFAIK, gksu and kdesu both act this way, as does the administrator mode in 
the GUI apps.   From what I understand, these utilities are hacked to use 
sudo.

Do yourself a favor and just backup /home and install Debian, then slowly but 
surely copy the files from the backup to the new /home.  Be careful though, 
different versions of some programs have different configurations, and can 
cause problems if you're using a config file for a different version of a 
program.

Joe


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Re: Editing a text file with sed

[Joe Hart]

On Wednesday 29 August 2007 17:26:25 Mumia W.. wrote:
 On 08/29/2007 08:17 AM, Joe Hart wrote:
  I am having trouble using sed to edit text files, heres a good example of
  what I am looking for:
 
  begin 1.txt
  This is a test
  file, what I am
  trying to do is get the lines to join.
 
  It isn't a complicated thing,
  but I also want to keep the paragraphs
  separate.
  /end 1.txt
 
  I try this command:
  [...]

 Here's another Perl solution:

 perl -00 -pe 's/\n+(?!$)/ /g; s/\n\n$/\n/' myfile.txt

 If you want to keep the blank lines between paragraphs, remove the
 second substitution.

Thank you everyone, that little bit of perl seems to work, and yes I did want 
to keep the blank line so I end up with:

perl -00 -pe 's/\n+(?!$)/ /g;'  1.txt  2.txt

which is exactly what is written above - the second substitution.  I did use 
the dos2unix command first which may have helped.

In any event, my problem is solved and I am a happy camper.  I knew it could 
be done, and in the process I have learned quite a bit about regex and even 
can get a clue what that perl is doing, although I am still not quite capable 
of creating such a masterpiece of a line.

Joe








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Editing a text file with sed

[Joe Hart]

I am having trouble using sed to edit text files, heres a good example of what 
I am looking for:

begin 1.txt
This is a test
file, what I am
trying to do is get the lines to join.

It isn't a complicated thing,
but I also want to keep the paragraphs
separate.
/end 1.txt

I try this command:

sed s/\n// / 1.txt  2.txt and I get an error, so:
sed s'\n/ /' 1.txt  2.txt and nothing happens.

I don't get it.  I though \n was end of line, which I am trying to replace 
with spaces.

I understand that this would loose the paragraphs, so ideally what I need to 
do is something like this:

1. Replace double line breaks with special sequence not found in text.
2. Convert all line breaks to spaces
3. Convert special seqeuence to double line breaks.

I thought sed would be perfect for this, but no such luck.  I can get what I 
want by using kwrite for step 1 and 2, then OO.o Writer for step 3. (kwrite 
seems unable to do step 3)

But ideally I'd like to just have a script to do it, but cannot figure out how 
to go about it, as sed doesn't seem to be working.

Joe


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Re: Editing a text file with sed

[Joe Hart]

On Wednesday 29 August 2007 15:48:50 Victor Munoz wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 03:17:46PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
  I am having trouble using sed to edit text files, heres a good example of
  what I am looking for:
 
  begin 1.txt
  This is a test
  file, what I am
  trying to do is get the lines to join.
 
  It isn't a complicated thing,
  but I also want to keep the paragraphs
  separate.
  /end 1.txt
 
  I try this command:
 
  sed s/\n// / 1.txt  2.txt and I get an error, so:
  sed s'\n/ /' 1.txt  2.txt and nothing happens.
 
  I don't get it.  I though \n was end of line, which I am trying to
  replace with spaces.

 sed works line by line, separately. There's an N modifier to make it
 work across lines. You may check
 http://www.panix.com/~elflord/unix/sed.html for a nice tutorial, or
 http://www-h.eng.cam.ac.uk/help/tpl/unix/sed.html for some examples.


Thanks victor, upon further testing, perhaps sed isn't what I should be using 
in the first place.  tr seems to be a better candidate, yet I cannot get this 
working either.  

It seems like such a simple thing to do, perhaps I need to write a program 
that will do it, but I thought surely there'd be a simple (or maybe not so 
simple) command line that would just do it.  I don't care if it's sed, or tr, 
awk, perl, python, whatever... as long as I get the stupid hard returns out.

Joe


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Re: Editing a text file with sed

[Joe Hart]

On Wednesday 29 August 2007 17:36:38 Kumar Appaiah wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 03:17:46PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
  begin 1.txt
  This is a test
  file, what I am
  trying to do is get the lines to join.
 
  It isn't a complicated thing,
  but I also want to keep the paragraphs
  separate.
  /end 1.txt

 [snip]

  But ideally I'd like to just have a script to do it, but cannot figure
  out how to go about it, as sed doesn't seem to be working.

 If I run your file through fmt, I get
 output
 This is a test file, what I am trying to do is get the lines to join.

 It isn't a complicated thing, but I also want to keep the paragraphs
 separate.
 /output

 Of course, that may not have been what you were looking for, but I
 just thought some might find it useful later.

I appreciate the answer, I didn't even know about the fmt command until now.  
It does seem to work in the example, but not on the real file(s) that I am 
working with.  Something makes me think that these files have some very 
strange characters in them, but they don't seem to show up when I cat the 
file.

In any event, I'll keep plugging away.

Joe


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Re: Editing a text file with sed

[Joe Hart]

On Wednesday 29 August 2007 17:01:20 Adam W wrote:
 Single quotes go around the whole sed script unless you are using a
 separate sed script file.
 try  sed 's/\n//' 1.txt  2.txt

  - Adam

 On 8/29/07, Florian Kulzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 15:17:46 +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
   I am having trouble using sed to edit text files, heres a good example
   of what I am looking for:
  
   begin 1.txt
   This is a test
   file, what I am
   trying to do is get the lines to join.
  
   It isn't a complicated thing,
   but I also want to keep the paragraphs
   separate.
   /end 1.txt
 
  [...]
 
   But ideally I'd like to just have a script to do it, but cannot figure
   out how to go about it, as sed doesn't seem to be working.
 
  Why not use Perl?
 
  $ perl -p0e '$_=~s/(.)\n(.)/$1 $2/g'  1.txt
  This is a test file, what I am trying to do is get the lines to join.
 
  It isn't a complicated thing, but I also want to keep the paragraphs
  separate.
 
  $ perl -p0e '$_=~s/(.)\n(.|\n)/$1 $2/g;$_=~s/ \n/\n/g'  1.txt
  This is a test file, what I am trying to do is get the lines to join.
  It isn't a complicated thing, but I also want to keep the paragraphs
  separate.
 
  --
  Regards,| http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer
Florian   |

Both very good solutions for the example I gave, although the first perl 
snippet seams to skip a line when I try it.  

However, on the real files, I am afraid it isn't working.  What I am actually 
trying to do is reformat books that I downloaded from the gutenberg project.  
Many of them are coded with loads of hard returns because the OCR software 
was poorly written, or they were typed by people used to old fashioned 
typewriters that require people to hit the return/enter key at the end of 
every line.  A practice frowned upon in the modern world.

If I have to, I'll write a program that reads character by character and looks 
for the line break, but like I said before there should be tools that can 
already do it.  It seems that a regex \n or even a $ would be enough, but 
alas that doesn't seem to give me decent output.

At least I have been pointed in the right direction, and I have learned some 
regex in the process.  Always good to learn new things.

Joe


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Re: fresh kde install

[Joe Hart]

On Sunday 26 August 2007 01:54:43 Joris Huizer wrote:
 --- L.V.Gandhi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I have installed etch base system and then
  installed xorg. I was
  trying to install kde
  apt-get install kde kdm
  I get msg saying
  .
  the following packages has unmet dependencies
  kde:depends on kde-core(=5.47), but it not going to
  be installed
 
  :depends on kde-amusements(=5.47), but it not
 
  going to be installed
 
  :depends on kdeaddons(=4:3.4.3), but it not going
 
  to be installed
 
  :depends on kde-pim(=4:3.4.3), but it not going to
 
  be installed
  Whe there is this problem in even in stable?
  How to install kde
  --
  L.V.Gandhi
  http://lvgandhi.tripod.com/
  linux user No.205042

 No idea why those won't install automatically -- maybe
 they are kept in a 'hold' state for some reason.

 You could run `aptitude install kde kdm`, it might try
 harder to get kde installed.
 Also this can be done using the gui of `aptitude`; it
 will show problems it found with your requested
 installation of packages

 Alternatively, you might add all the packages that
 are not going to be installed to the apt-get line,
 like

 `apt-get install kde kdm kde-core kde-amusements
 kdeaddons  kde-pim` - that way you'll probably get
 around the problem too

The package: kde is a metapackage that pulls in the kitchen sink, meaning ALL 
of kde, which of course, includes kdm, so having both on the same apt-get is 
a bit redundant.

Perhaps a better solution would to install kde-core, also make sure you to the 
apt-get update first so it get's the proper information from the mirror.  
After that you can just install the applications you're interested in.

The error mentioned sounds to me like a mirror non properly in sync.

Joe
Joe


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Re: graphics driver issues

[Joe Hart]

On Friday 24 August 2007 19:48:31 sworoc wrote:
 Hi all,

 I am a college student and am taking a graphics course this fall.  I
 recently built a PC with an AMD64 CPU and a GeForce 6150 on board
 graphics card.  I seem to be having trouble getting it to use the
 nvidia module, but I'm not sure where I'm going wrong.  I installed it
 using the module assistant method, and I believe that I have things
 set up correctly.

 output:
 --

 puckett:~# uname -a
 Linux puckett 2.6.21-2-amd64 #1 SMP Tue Jul 10 21:39:38 UTC 2007 x86_64
 GNU/Linux
 puckett:~# lsmod | grep nvidia
 nvidia   5434580  0
 i2c_core   28288  4 nvidia,it87,i2c_isa,i2c_nforce2
 puckett:~# apt-get install nvidia-kernel-common nvidia-glx
 nvidia-kernel-2.6.21-2-amd64
 Reading package lists... Done
 Building dependency tree
 Reading state information... Done
 nvidia-kernel-common is already the newest version.
 nvidia-glx is already the newest version.
 nvidia-kernel-2.6.21-2-amd64 is already the newest version.
 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.

 -

 it appears that the nvidia module is running from the output above,
 but when I attempt to start X, I get the following:

 
 xauth:  creating new authority file /home/dustin/.serverauth.18757


 X Window System Version 1.3.0
 Release Date: 19 April 2007
 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0, Release 1.3
 Build Operating System: Linux Debian (xorg-server 2: 1.3.0.0.dfsg-12)
 Current Operating System: Linux puckett 2.6.21-2-amd64 #1 SMP Tue Jul 10
 21:39:38 UTC 2007 x86_64
 Build Date: 09 August 2007
Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org http://wiki.x.org
to make sure that you have the latest version.
 Module Loader present
 Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
(++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
(WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
 (==) Log file: /var/log/Xorg.0.log, Time: Tue Aug 21 22:12:10 2007
 (==) Using config file: /etc/X11/xorg.conf
 (II) Module already built-in
 (II) Module already built-in
 (EE) Failed to load module nvidia (module does not exist, 0)
 (EE) Failed to load module nvidia (module does not exist, 0)
 (EE) No drivers available.
snip irrelavent portions of xorg.conf

 Section Module
Loadi2c
Loadbitmap
Loadddc
Loaddri
Loadextmod
Loadfreetype
Loadnvidia
Loadglx
Loadint10
Loadvbe
 EndSection

I'm not an expert, but to me it looks like your problem is with the tabbed 
line above:  Load nvidia should not be in this section.  Try removing that 
and see what happens.

snip additonal irrelavent portions of xorg.conf

Joe


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Re: kde applications slow starting.

[Joe Hart]

On Tuesday 21 August 2007 17:26:40 L.V.Gandhi wrote:
 Morning every application was working ok. Now all kde applications
 like kwrite, home etc takes very long time to start. It freezes
 windows.
 In oocalc, file open is done quickly from fileopen dialog. If I use
 recently open it hangs.
 I thing after returing to India I used tzconfig in the morning.
 Whether it can cause these problems?
 If so what are the solutions

How much memory is in this machine?  Could it be that you are running a lot of 
processes on the machine and filling the memory and swap is being used?  That 
would surely slow down the system.

Joe



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Re: Organising MP3 Files into folders

[Joe Hart]

On Friday 17 August 2007 09:07:23 Jonathan Kaye wrote:
 Magnus Pedersen wrote:
  Adam Gray wrote:
  Basically while backing up my system I used my iPod to back up my
  music collection, which used to be neatly sorted into folders with
  artists  albums. Then when downloading it again with gtkPod I was
  left with one directory containing a lot (~3000) of files. Anyone know
  of any music apps that would do this? I mean, I'll write a script but
  it would save me the trouble if there was something already there.
  They're all ID3'd, and named in the format Artist - Album -
  Track.mp3.
 
  Any suggestions?
 
  Adam
 
  Amarok can do what you want.
 
  /Magnus

 If I'm not mistaken, Amarok doesn't actually change the locations of any of
 the files. It organises them (based on their tags) in its Collection tab
 but you will still have 3K files in one folder if that's what you started
 with. There is a function migrateFile() in the DCOP interface, however but
 I've never used it and I don't know what it does exactly. I'm not sure if
 the OP wants a physical relocation or simply a visual organisation. If it's
 the latter, then you're fine with Amarok but if you really want to move
 your files around then maybe if you ask him very nicely, Ron will write you
 a script :-)
 Cheers,
 Jonathan
 --
 Registerd Linux user #445917 at http://counter.li.org/

Amarok can indeed move/copy files.  All one needs to do is to use the file 
navagation and pick files that are not in the location of the settings for 
the collection, then right click on the selection and choose either copy 
files to colletion or move files to collection.  A dialog window will 
appear that lets you pick exactly the format of the new filenames.

Personally, I use /media/share/audio/mp3/%initial/%artist/%title.%filetype and 
it does exactly what I want.  You may want something different, but it's 
pretty self explanitory.

I end up with /media/share/audio/mp3/A/Artist/Song.ogg when I would import 
Artist - Song.ogg

Joe


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Re: Free dive log software?

[Joe Hart]

On Tuesday 14 August 2007 14:06:22 Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 08/14/07 06:23, Richard Hartmann wrote:
  Is anyone aware of (good) software that allows you to log your dives,
  your brevets and everything else that relates to diving?
 
  KDE/Qt with SQLlite preferred, but I am not too particular on the
  exact mechanisms.

 As in /SCUBA/ diving?

 --
 Ron Johnson, Jr.
 Jefferson LA  USA

 Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
 Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

SCUBA (Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apperatus) is diving with a tank.  
Free diving is without.  Hence the word free, but he said everything with 
diving... 

I would think this is a job for a simple database, pick your favorite front 
end.  Even a spreadsheet would suffice for the little information that needs 
to be tracked.

Joe


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Re: Free dive log software?

[Joe Hart]

Sending to list where it belongs.

--  Forwarded Message  --

Subject: Re: Free dive log software?
Date: Tuesday 14 August 2007
From: Richard Hartmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED]

On 14/08/07, Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 SCUBA (Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apperatus) is diving with a tank.
 Free diving is without.  Hence the word free, but he said everything with
 diving...

I meant scuba, not free dives, sorry. The free is meant as in FLOSS.


 I would think this is a job for a simple database, pick your favorite front
 end.  Even a spreadsheet would suffice for the little information that needs
 to be tracked.

While that is true, I would prefer a dedicated solution, especially
when, at some
point, dive computers could be read into it directly.


Richard


---


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Re: Installing Sarge problem

[Joe Hart]

On Monday 13 August 2007 13:44:52 Bob Middaugh wrote:
 Hi,
 I'm installing Sarge, installation completes, reboot, set timezone, root
 pwd, Apt config pick http and debian.lcs.mit.edu.

 After that, I get the ominious message about overwriting the kernel I'm
 currently running and how this can be potentially disasterous.

 I'm prompted y or n, do I want to remove the running kernel image?

 What can I do here to get past this.  At this point, I don't care what
 kernel version I'm running.

 Thanks,
 Bob

I question why you're installing Sarge in the first place... Etch is the 
current stable version of Debian.

That being said, no it is a not a good idea to remove the running kernel.  
Install a new one, boot into it, and when you're sure it's working ok, then 
if you wish, remove the old one.

Personally, I always have two kernels available to boot in, just in case.  But 
then again, my kernels change quickly and frequently the new one is not 
better than the old one.

Joe


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Re: Installing Sarge problem

[Joe Hart]

Sending message back to list:

On Monday 13 August 2007 16:23:55 you wrote:
  -- Original message --
 From: Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  On Monday 13 August 2007 13:44:52 Bob Middaugh wrote:
   Hi,
   I'm installing Sarge, installation completes, reboot, set timezone,
   root pwd, Apt config pick http and debian.lcs.mit.edu.
  
   After that, I get the ominious message about overwriting the kernel I'm
   currently running and how this can be potentially disasterous.
  
   I'm prompted y or n, do I want to remove the running kernel image?
  
   What can I do here to get past this.  At this point, I don't care what
   kernel version I'm running.
  
   Thanks,
   Bob
 
  I question why you're installing Sarge in the first place... Etch is the
  current stable version of Debian.

 because it has packages for opennms.


Sounds like that might be a valid reason.  Don't know because that package 
isn't in Sid, and that's what I run.

  That being said, no it is a not a good idea to remove the running kernel.

 yeah, I figured as much.

  Install a new one, boot into it, and when you're sure it's working ok,
  then if you wish, remove the old one.

 This is my question.  During the install it wants to remove 2.4.  I don't
 have the option to pick a different one...that I know of.  Hence, my
 question above.  Is there a way to tell it not to worry about what kernel
 version I'm running during an install?  I really don't care if it's 2.4 or
 2.6.

IIRC, Sarge will install either a 2.4 or a 2.6 kernel, but I only installed 
Sarge once, and that was a couple of years ago.  I am sure others on this 
list have more experience with Sarge than I do.

  Personally, I always have two kernels available to boot in, just in case.
   But then again, my kernels change quickly and frequently the new one is
  not better than the old one.

 I understand these kinds of things in FreeBSD, but I have absolutely no
 experience with Debian or really linux in general.

At least you're not so unfamiliar with the command line, and many of the 
commands are the same.  :)


 Thanks,
 Bob


Joe


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Re: Passwordless X login

[Joe Hart]

On Thursday 09 August 2007 13:59:55 Dan H wrote:
 Hello,

 I'd like to be able to login with just a mouseclick like possible in
 Windows. My wife and I are sharing a computer at home, and it's kind of
 silly to always have to type in a password (which is the same for both of
 us anyway). Is this possible with kdm, or do I have to switch window
 managers?

 Thanks,
 --D.


Yes, it is possible.  

Kcontrol (Control Center) - System Administration - Login Manager.  Click on 
Convienience and click the Enable Auto Login button.  It's not the most 
secure thing in the world, but it is exactly what you want.

Note, that you need to activate Administrator Mode in order to check the box.

Joe


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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators

[Joe Hart]

On Sunday 05 August 2007 16:23:12 B.Hoffmann wrote:
  I would like to see how VirtualBox stands up against the others.  It
  seems to be the fastest emulator when it comes to Windows.  Although this
  is only one person's opinion and there is no scientific evidence it
  just feels faster.
 
  -Tom

 VB runs great here. I'm virtualizing Arch, Fedora and Slack12 on this,
 feels fast apart from F7 which feels extremely sluggish. Did not work with
 PC-BSD at all when selecting to run as FreeBSD. Slack12 runs like a dream,
 will install it for good after this test run in VB.

 Barnaby

Similar experiece here.  Windows XP, Sabayon, and SuSE all work fine in VBox 
1.40, but for some reason no flavor of BSD does.  I have no idea if anyone is 
working on changing this or not.

I used to use VMware, but since it's not free I didn't really like it.  VBox 
is somewhere in between open and closed, but seems to work much better on my 
machine(s) than QEMU.

Joe


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Re: [OT UPDATE] Interview with Con Kolivas on Linux failures

[Joe Hart]

On Wednesday 25 July 2007 18:02:49 Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
 Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I don't really think this is OT, albeit not directly Debian related.
  Con Kolivas, the kernel hacker who authored a better scheduler, recently
  decided to quit.
 
  Loss for Linux (and Linus)

 He now has become a key developer:
 http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=41215

 Hugo

No, he's become a student of Japanese.  It's absolutely amazing what some 
people write.  AFAIK, while CK was quite popular, he was never a key 
developer.

Joe


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Re: Stability issues

[Joe Hart]

On Saturday 21 July 2007 14:22:47 Mike Robinson wrote:
 I've been running Debian testing for about a year-and-a-half.  It's been
 quite stable.  I performed a dist-upgrade about two weeks ago.  It's
 been unstable since.  By unstable I mean that applications may crash
 (disappear) and the system may freeze.  The system is freezing about
 once a day.

 My processor is an Athlon 64 3200+, but I'm running the 686 kernel
 (2.6.18-4).  I've posted a few logs here:

http://robinsonhome.org/logs1/dmesg.txt
http://robinsonhome.org/logs1/kern.log
http://robinsonhome.org/logs1/messages

 One thing I noticed while recompiling various applications is that gcc
 would display the following error:

 dsputil.c: In function 'pix_abs8_y2_c':
 dsputil.c:3048: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault
 Please submit a full bug report,
 with preprocessed source if appropriate.
 See URL:http://gcc.gnu.org/bugs.html for instructions.
 For Debian GNU/Linux specific bug reporting instructions,
 see URL:file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.1/README.Bugs.
 The bug is not reproducible, so it is likely a hardware or OS problem.


 But if I just continued the build by typing 'make' again, it would pick
 up where it left off and eventually complete.  For a large application,
 I may run into this problem a few times.  Upon further view of the build
 logs I noticed this snippet:

 gcc -c -pipe -march=k8


 Does this mean that it's building the application as 64-bit?  Could my
 distribution somehow now be mixed 32 and 64 bit?  Could this possibly be
 the source of my problems?  If so, how can I recover?  If not, any
 suggestions as to how I should continue troubleshooting?

 Thanks,
 Mike

I would think yes.  K8 is 64 bit.  K7 is 32.  But if you're using the 686 
kernel then it's the wrong one.  You'd probably be better with the K7 
version.

My $0.02

Joe


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Re: Benefits of using aptitude

[Joe Hart]

On Wednesday 18 July 2007 21:31:28 Stefan Monnier wrote:
  Still, if you're used to apt-get, I don't really see a reason to switch.
  I always recommend aptitude, but never tell users to switch from apt-get
  on a running system. If I should, please let me know the reasons.
 
  The biggest benefit (at least until the new apt) would be the automatic
  removal of dependencies. Otherwise the TUI is quite useful sometimes,
  (especially when browsing for new packages), the search patterns, ...

 I actually keep wondering why apt-get and aptitude are not merged into one
 (it looks like it good almost be done by just renaming aptitude to
 apt-get).

No! Please don't recommend doing that.  While aptitude and apt-get are both 
front ends for dpkg, they are quite different in how they operate.  Sure, 
aptitude will accept many of the same paramaters as apt-get, but it's 
dependency handling is quite different.

If one uses only aptitude, there is no problem, but if one mixes the two 
commands, then aptitude will eventually get confused and want to remove vital 
components.

What is worse, is that when running Sid, aptitude gets confused on packages 
disappearing, or being renamed.  It's recoverable, but a royal PITA when 
having to deal with the problem.  This point is of course irrelavent if one 
is running Etch.  With Lenny, it's somewhat relavent.

Joe



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Re: MP3 + Patent issues in Debian

[Joe Hart]

On Monday 16 July 2007 10:01:25 Kumar Appaiah wrote:
 Dear Debian users,

 While talking about Debian in a LUG meet, someone pointed out that
 Debian's distributions could play MP3s out-of-the-box (Etch
 included). This is unlike the Fedora/Ubuntu policy of not making
 available the (supposedly) patent encumbred codecs (decoders, at
 least) by default, on the install CD.

 I tried to search for the Debian take on this issue (mailing list
 discussion or bug report), but couldn't find the definitive
 discussion. Could someone please point me to it?

Yes, Debian (Etch) can play mp3 files out of the box.  This suprised me too 
when I first installed it because Ubuntu will not.  Since Ubuntu is based on 
Debian, I thought for sure that I would have to hunt for the codecs.

Well, it turned out that it wasn't necessary with mp3 files, but it was true 
with other media formats, so a trip to www.debian-multimedia.org was in 
order.

Joe


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Re: URGENT: my gnome desktop is dead

[Joe Hart]

On Monday 16 July 2007 12:09:05 Dot Deb wrote:
   This morning I switched my laptop on, as usual, but after logging
   in (using gdm), gnome only shows me the tomboy window. No
   panels, no background, no icons ...

   Yesterday I regularly switched off the laptop. I did not upgrade
   the system recently (I'm running sid).

   I have no idea on where to start debugging the problem.

   I need your help because today I really need to work and I do
   not want to loose my job for that F... gnome.

   By the way what is a stable functional alternative to gnome,
   excluding kde?

   Thanx
   a.

Unfortunately, it is well known that gnome is not stable in Sid.  The reason 
seems to stem from the maintainer who uploads the packages.  For some reason, 
there is a delay between packages, and gnome needs all of them because of 
dependencies, therefore, gnome breaks.  This happens with KDE, but only on a 
short term basis.

There are plenty of other window managers available that may suit your needs.  
XFCE is a good alternative if you're not thrilled with KDE.  For lighter 
solutions, one can turn to fluxbox or iceWM.

Best of luck with your departure from Gnome.

Joe


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Re: How to move the master boot record?

[Joe Hart]

On Sunday 01 July 2007 13:33:17 Rodolfo Medina wrote:

[snip]

 I've done more tests and these are my conclusions:

 1) if I run the above grub commands from the `target' partition everything
 goes well: e.g., if I want to install hda6 grub boot loader to the mbr, I
 have to do:

# grub
grub  root (hd0,5)
grub  setup (hd0)
grub  quit

from hda6; instead, if I want to install hda9 grub boot loader to the
 mbr, I have to do:

# grub
grub  root (hd0,8)
grub  setup (hd0)
grub  quit

from hda9.  This way things seems to go fine.

 2) If I give those commands from Knoppix 5.0, they work for Etch, whereas
 Sarge does not manage to boot any more: I have to get back to Knoppix and
 install Etch grub to mbr, boot from there into Sarge and there install grub
 to mbr.

 So, if I want to use those commands, from Knoppix, to, say, restore Linux
 boot after a Windows installation, they are not supposed to work with
 Sarge, whereas they should with Etch.

 What do you think?

IMO, it is all working as it is supposed to.  As for Sarge, I wouldn't know 
because I never used Sarge.  My first Debian was Etch, and it didn't last 
long because I am the sort that prefers the bleeding edge.

Remember that Knoppix is based on Sid/Experimental, so of course the grub that 
it uses is much newer than that of Sarge, and depending on which version of 
Knoppix one uses, could be newer than that in Etch.

I would strongly recommend just converting your Sarge system to Etch, but I 
can understand your reluctance to do so.  But, like I said before, once the 
MBR is written, then just adjust grub's menu.lst file and have it boot any 
system you want.  If you add new systems, you don't *have* to let the 
installation install grub, since it's already there, but you would have to 
tell your menu.lst where to fine the new system.   That is just another Title 
entry into the grub's menu.lst

Best of luck to you.  I think you're getting the hang of the grub commands.

Joe





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Re: How to move the master boot record?

[Joe Hart]

On Saturday 30 June 2007 15:24:08 Rodolfo Medina wrote:
 Rodolfo Medina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On my PC, besides the swap partition, I have one partition, hda1, for MS
  Windows and another five for Linux: hda6, had7, hda8, hda9, hda10.
 
  At the moment the `boot partition' is hda6 and I want it to be, say,
  hda9. Sorry if I can'y use the right words.  Maybe I should say that the
  hda6 Grub boot loader is now installed to the master boot record of my
  hard drive whereas the hda9 boot loader is installed to the /dev/hda9
  partition?

 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  There are more than one way to do this, but this will (should) work:
 
  #grub
  grubroot (hd0,8)
  grubsetup (hd0)
  grubquit
 
  hd0,8 = /dev/hda9, so you should be alright with those command.  Note
  that the # and the grub are the prompts.

 I tested it and it seems to work fine.  Only, I can't now restore the
 previous situation: I do:

  # grub
  grub  root (hd0,5)
  grub  setup (hd0)
  grub  quit

 , then reboot but the system can't get into hda6.  It's strange, I find no
 reason why it works with hda9 and not with hda6.  Please, any ideas?

 Thanks,
 Rodolfo

No idea.  If it works for /dev/hda9. then (providing the right files are on 
the partition) then /dev/hda6 should work fine, and you're correct in calling 
it (hd0,5).

The only thing I can think of is that the files that grub needs are missing, 
but to be honest, it really doesn't matter where grub is sitting, as long as 
you can tell it where to find all the different OS's on your machine, then 
you're good to go.

So, in short, I don't quite understand why you're trying to do all this in the 
first place.  As already mentioned, installing Etch will automatically find 
the other systems and put them in the grub menu.

Joe


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Re: How to move the master boot record?

[Joe Hart]

On Friday 29 June 2007 15:33:09 Rodolfo Medina wrote:
 Rodolfo Medina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  In my computer the master boot record is installed in /dev/hda6. 
  Suppose I want to move it and have it installed in /dev/hda9: is it
  possible, and how?

 Russell L. Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  There is only one master boot record per drive.  hda6 and hda9 are two
  partitions of the same drive, namely, drive hda.
 
  Perhaps you mean that hda6 is the /boot partition, and you wish
  /boot to be hda9 ?
 
  You need to provide us with more information.

 Yes, you're right, I'll try to better explain myself.

 On my PC, besides the swap partition, I have one partition, hda1, for MS
 Windows and another five for Linux: hda6, had7, hda8, hda9, hda10.

 At the moment the `boot partition' is hda6 and I want it to be, say, hda9.
 Sorry if I can'y use the right words.  Maybe I should say that the hda6
 Grub boot loader is now installed to the master boot record of my hard
 drive whereas the hda9 boot loader is installed to the /dev/hda9 partition?


There are more than one way to do this, but this will (should) work:

#grub
grubroot (hd0,8)
grubsetup (hd0)
grubquit

hd0,8 = /dev/hda9, so you should be alright with those command.  Note that the 
# and the grub are the prompts.

 I want to do so beacuse: now I'm still using Debian Sarge, which is
 installed in hda6; I want to install Debian Etch in hda9; then when I'm
 sure that everything is all right with Etch I want to boot from hda9, so
 hda6 can be formatted again.

 I hope that now it is clear enough what I want.

 Thanks for any help
 Rodolfo




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Re: have to learn python

[Joe Hart]

On Thursday 28 June 2007 17:49:17 abdelkader belahcene wrote:
 Hi,
 have I need to learn python, I know several interpreters (fro example
 bash scripting, ) and   laguages (php, C++,C..).
 I administrate servers on linux
  end developpe application at know using depending of course of type
 of application so from bash, to C, C++ ( graphical interface fltk) and
 php.

 thanks in advance for any remark
 best regards
 bela

If you already are familiar with the above listed languages, then learning 
python should be no problem at all.  It really is a pretty straight forward 
language and there are plenty of tutorials available (online).

The major difference between python and other languages is the way scope is 
defined, in c (and c ++) you have the {}, while in python, the spacing 
determines the scope, so indentation (and readable programs) are mandatory.  
To me, that is a good thing.

Best of luck to you.

Joe


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Re: Fonts quality in Desktop with Iceweasel

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Josep M. wrote:
 Hello to all.
 
 I have in the same machine centos 4.4 and debian etch,
 in centos, when using firefox fonts are much better
 quality than debian, in both I have added the same
 Microsoft fonts, Arial, Tahoma,Verdana... ad all fonts
 are much better displayed in Centos than Debian when
 using Iceweasel or Firefox in centosI think I must
 tweak anything, but in both I use the same updated
 nvidia drivers.
 
 Xor config is ok, so, I would like know what more can
 be needed tweak.

Ar you using KDE or Gnome?  Depending on which WM and DE you are using
there are different ways to tweak the fonts.

I'm guessing that you use Gnome, so one of the Gnome experts need to
answer your question because I am a KDE user.

Of course there are CLI utilities too, but I am not very experienced
with using them, other than the very handy (as root)

dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig

command.  That might be what you are looking for.  Normally when one
installs msttcorefonts, this is run automatically, but YMMV.

Joe

Joe
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Re: Upgrade from 32bit Sarge to 64bit Etch

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mitja Podreka wrote:
 Hello
 
 I've thought out my migration plan, but since the box in question is my
 computer at work, I cannot afford to loose it for long.
 I would like to ask you for opinion or suggestions.
 
 I was thinking to do it like this:
 1. Upgrade my 32bit Sarge to 32bit Etch
 2. Make a list of installed packages
 3. On separate partition install a base 64bit Etch
 4. Install the list of packages from 32bit Sarge
 5. Replace the /etc folder with /etc folder from 32bit Etch version
 6. Delete /home folder and mount /home partition in it's place
 
 Will it work?
 
 Thanks,
 Mitja
 
 

Yes and no.

1) Should be fine.
2) Should be fine.
3) Should be fine.
4) Here you could run into problems because some packages that are
available for 32-bit are not available for 64-bit, but there are not
many, and most of those packages are non-free so if you stick to
packages in main, you should be OK.
5) No, that would most surely break the system.  Leave the 64-bit /etc
like it is, just modify the files that you need to change.
6) That should work, although you're not specifying which system the
/home is from.  AFAIK, the configuration data in /home will be fine
migrating it from a 32-bit system to a 64-bit system as long as the
versions of the programs that use said data are the same.

Another way you might want to go about it, is to just upgrade a 32-bit
setup to a 64 bit one, rather than installing multiple versions.  That
being said, I have both the 32-bit version and the 64-bit version
installed, but use the 32 bit version most of the time.  I *could* use
the 64-bit version and chroot to the 32-bit apps that I need that are
not available for 64-bit, but it's not very often that I need the 64-bit
power and it IMO isn't worth the trouble of setting it all up.

Joe

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Re: Problem with Debian Etch on s390

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Rod Clayton wrote:
 I am trying to install Debian 4.0 Etch under VM on an s390 mainframe.
 I am using a network install and a guest lan for connectivity. After I
 sucessfully install the OS, the system re-boots. On Re-boot, Linux
 doesn't recognize the guest lan, even though did a network install
 using it.
 
 Is this a kernel problem ir an installer problem ir what?

or what?

The installer uses it's own configuration, and AFAIK, does not always
configure the system the same way that it uses when installing.
Therefore, you may need to reconfigure the network manually.

1)  Make sure the correct driver for the kernel is loading, most likely
this is already installed since you're running in a VM and most likely
it is using pretty standard hardware emulation.

2) Check the /etc/network/interfaces file and make sure the definition
for the network is correct.  Most likely your problem is there.

I hope this helps.

Joe




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Re: CLI tools for checking out CDROM drive

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Nigel Henry wrote:
 On Monday 28 May 2007 00:24, Hugh Lawson wrote:
 Nigel Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 I mean we're not talking about big bucks here. It's just annoying when
 something stops working for no apparent reason.
 I may have missed an earlier post, but here goes anyway.

 I had the same problem a few days ago. I opened up the computer and
 pressed against the IDE connectors where they plug into the drive, and
 into the motherboard.

 Although I felt no give at all, the drive started reading CDs again.

 It was an iffy thing and I was ready to buy a new drive, because this
 is a CD that has a collection of solitaire games that get played every
 day.

 --
 Hugh Lawson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Hi Hugh. Yeh I've gone that way already, unplugging, and replugging both ends 
 of the ribbon cable, and changed the cable for another one, but still no joy.
 
 Although the drive is being detected, I think in reality it has bitten the 
 dust, kicked the bucket, gone out to lunch (permanently).
 
 I really hate throwing stuff away, but I suppose you just have to go with the 
 flow sometimes, and throw it into the trash.
 
 Thanks for the suggestion.
 
 Nigel.
 
 

Nigel, I agree with your assessment of the problem, but it strikes me
funny that a DVD-ROM drive does the same thing.  AFAIK, all DVD drives
can read CD's, so it leads me to believe that something might be wrong
with the controller (most likely build onto the motherboard).  Can you
try using a different IDE port (like maybe make the CD a slave to the
primary HD or if it is already, set it to be a master on the secondary
IDE port?

When having problems like this, having another machine lying around to
test things with is a very big plus.  Even if it is an old clunker that
you found in a rubbish bin somewhere (read ebay).

Joe
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Re: CLI tools for checking out CDROM drive

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Nigel Henry wrote:
 I've got a Sony CD-RW CRX230E on this machine, which until recently appeared 
 to be working ok. Now I'm getting a No Media Found when trying to mount a 
 data CD. When I first noticed this, I tried an audio cd, and that played ok, 
 but now I find that the cdplayer just says no disc. Neither can I boot live 
 cd's now, even though the cdrom is first to boot from.
 
 The drive is detected in the BIOS as master on IDE1, which is correct, and 
 dmesg shows that it's there on IRQ15, and KDE's info lists a load of 
 different stuff about the drive.
 
 I havn't changed the cable yet, just unplugged, and replugged it from both 
 ends. When I put a disc in the green light comes on for a bit, and there is a 
 touch of HD activity, and another couple of flickers of the light.
 
 Is there some CLI tool in Debian Etch, or Lenny that I can use to thoroughly 
 check out the cdrom drive?
 
 Thanks for any suggestions, including telling me that the darned thing has 
 died.
 

I don't know if this will help you or not, but keep in mind that the
Linux kernel treats all devices like files, so you can just open a
terminal and cd to the CD (pun).  Usually it will be /media/cdrom which
is a symlink to /media/cdrom0.  In older systems it was always
/mnt/cdrom, but whatever it is, it doesn't really matter.  Can you ls
the files on the data cd by doing:

ls /media/cdrom

?

It seems to me that if the drive can play audio CD's then it *should* be
able to read data CD's too.

Joe
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Re: Remove gnome-games

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Manon Metten wrote:
 Hi Ron,
 
 On 5/25/07, *Ron Johnson* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 When you say gnome, do you mean the package named gnome?
 
 If so, you should be all right.  Unless aptitude does something stupid.
 
 
 Sorry for my inaccurate description.
 
 
 Here's aptitude's warning:
 
 gnome-games will be removed.
 
 The following packages depend on gnome-games and will be  broken  by its
 removal:
 
 *gnome-desktop-environment depends on gnome-games (= 1: 2.14.3)
 
 
 What happens when gnome-desktop-environment will be broken. I never use
 it anyway. But IIRC I've read that some kde apps use some gnome stuff.
 So I don't know if I can safely remove gnome-games.
 
 I rather have gnome-desktop-environment removed completely, but I don't
 know what part or apps of kde will be broken then.
 
 Thanks, Manon.
 

Please don't use html mail

The above mentioned packages are both meta-packages, so removing them
will not actually remove any packages on your system.  Meta-packages are
just dummy packages with a list of dependencies to make fetching (or
updating) a bunch of packages easier.

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Michelle Konzack wrote:
 Am 2007-05-11 10:48:06, schrieb Joe Hart:
 On the other hand, how can one pro actively stop a band of terrorists?
 
 Interesting...
 
 Where are the terrorists? 
 Some of the 23 911-Terrosts are definitivly alive.
 
 If they are alive, then they have nothing to do with 911 and now what?
 
 You consider them as terrorists because they as Arabs?
 

I said nothing about the nationalities of the terrorists.  I have
nothing against people of any religion, as long as they aren't trying to
force their religion on me.  AFAIK, there are terrorists in almost every
nation and it says nothing of their faith or their ethnicity.

 I don't know about you, but I would rather not be blown up by a suicide
 bomber, and I do know that it is impossible to stop someone from
 inflicting damage if they are intent in going down in flames.  Sure, one
 can minimize the damage, but there is damage nevertheless.
 
 They where suicid bombers in Irak before the USA took over the power?
 
 Please read the studies of the international Red Cross and the UNESCO.
 The suicid bombers are 90% no terroists.  These mens and womens have
 lost there families because the USA hav killed them amd now the SB
 trying to defeat there country with methods they are available.
 

See above.
 What really fears me is that it is just a matter of time before one
 group of radicals gets access to WMD and I pray they don't send them my way.
 
 Right, - and it is already to late.  The USA have over 46800 nuks/WMD's.
 
 I pray for a real Nuke-Accident in the USA so they are wake up or fuck
 them self.  I hope someone break into the american Nuklear-Defense-
 Network and activate some nuks for self-destruction.

You're really showing your colors by that statement.  Yes, we already
know that you are quite ant-American, but to actually hope for a nuclear
attack?  Be real.  How can you claim to be so against war by wishing
something like that occurring?

Yes, you may think the United States is governed by a group of radicals,
but that is not what I was referring to, nor has AFAIK, anyone that has
any say in the matter suggested the use of WMD in the area, although it
may solve a lot of problems, it would create even more.

Joe
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Re: Duplicate menu item

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Alan Haggai Alavi wrote:
 Greg Folkert wrote:
 On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 08:14 +0530, Alan Haggai Alavi wrote:
  
 Hi,

 I installed the package for 'GTK Styles and Fonts' in KDE. I
 installed it via Automatix2. But I happened to install it twice. Now,
 in my Control Center, I am having two menu options named 'GTK Styles
 and Fonts' in 'Appearance'. How can I remove one of them?
 

 Alan, this is NOT UBUNTU.
   
 Hi Greg,
 
 I am using Debian Etch. I did the above in it. So any way to get that
 duplicate menu removed?
 
 Regards,
 Alan.
 
 

If your system still works, you are lucky.  Using Ubuntu packages on
Debian is just asking for trouble.  Yes, Automatix2 is a neat little
helper to make it simpler for newbies to install things, but everything
that it installs is available for Etch just by finding the right
repository.

The first place to look is http://www.debian-multimedai.org where one
can find most of the codecs and multimedia apps that Debian (and Ubuntu)
are missing.  They are real Debian .deb files, not .deb files mangled by
the Ubuntu staff.

That is the one thing that upsets me most about Ubuntu.  Not that it is
a bad distro, nor that it takes developers from Debian, although both
can be said to be true.  What irks me is that Ubuntu breaks Debian
compatibility.

Joe
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Re: Thx for Help, problem with links in mails remains

[Joe Hart]

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mad4linux wrote:
 
 Hi,
 First i'd like to thank you for the help concerning the problem with
 email-adresses opening in evolution when using iceweasel on kde. This
 problem is now fixed after selectingthe right entries in
 /usr/share/applications/default-applications.desktop
 
 But i've got a similar problem when clicking on links in my mails in
 icedove. This links always open in Konqueror, altough i've set the
 standard browser in kde's configuration screen to iceweasel. The
 standard browser for gnome is now iceweasel as well (set in
 /usr/share/applications/default-applications.desktop).
 
 But links still open in Konqueror, when klicking on them in icedove (or
 the kde helpsystem per example).
 
 Any hints?
 
 

AFAIK, your problem is likely related to the alternatives that Debian
uses.  I would check what your default x-web-browser is with the
update-alternatives command.  This is most likely set to Konqueror.

You can see which are available by issuing the command (as root)

update-alternatives --list x-www-browser

To change the default browser for the system, use:

update-alternatives --set x-www-browser /usr/bin/iceweasel

That should take care of your problem.

Joe

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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 06:42:26PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 There are also problems here:
 
 Netherlands?
 
 There are too many political parties, so in order to have a working
 government, coalitions must be formed, and in the process of forming the
 coalitions, parties quite frequently must abandon the platform that got
 them elected in the first place.
 
 Is that an MMP type of system? I think it is still better than an FPP
 type of system where whoever gets in does not necessarily reflect the
 wishes of the majority.
 

Well, political opinions vary, so what I might think is a better system,
 you might not.  There's really no point in discussing this.

 The welfare system is too lenient.  There are a number of people who
 refuse to work because they actually take a pay cut by getting a job.
 
 Something wrong there. The welfare benefit should be less than the
 minimum hourly wage. Can't blame anyone there, hell would you choose to
 not work for more money or working for less? Are you sure you have that
 right?

Yes I am sure.  It mainly has to do with the high taxes.  The minimum
wage is higher than the welfare rate, but when you deduct the taxes, the
net income is lower for the working person than the lazy bum.  This may
change in the future, as the government realizes the problem, they just
have yet to implement a solution.

Joe


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Re: Command line wave player

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 08:05:15PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 04:56:09AM -0500, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
 Ron Johnson wrote:
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 On 05/08/07 19:51, Eric d'Alibut wrote:
 On 5/8/07, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Wicked pissah!
 Wicked pissah??
 Translation: really excellent.
 Is this some sort of Weird Youth Slang?
 Wait! Where's the list ethicist?
 Joe! Joe! Where are you!

 A
 Far out!
 
 We need a list ethicist who is not out to lunch :-)
 

Fine.  I nominate you then.  I don't want to be the ethicist anyway. ;)

Joe
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Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard

[Joe Hart]

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Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote:
 
 
 Greg Folkert wrote:
 On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 08:45 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote:
 Dear all

 I'm a complete newbie, and I'm not sure which mailing list is the
 best to post my question (I posted this to debian-user and
 debian-powerpc).

 I successfully installed Debian 4.0 / Etch on my Apple PowerBook G4.
 I managed to setup my (external/USB) Apple keyboard with a
 Swiss-German keymap. However, I could not figure out how to produce
 an '@' symbol... in Mac OS X I press 'Option-g' to type an '@', but
 that does not work in Linux / Debian. Any hints?

 Umm, did you try the obvious one?

 SHIFT-2 (the 2 above the qwerty keys)?
 
 Yes, I did. On the Apple keyboard, Shift-2 is mapped to something else
 than '@' (propably '', but I am not sure because at the moment I'm in
 my office in front of a PC, while the Mac rests at home). Shift-2
 therefore does not give an '@', but rather the symbol that is written on
 the Apple keyboard. I also tried Option-2 and other 'number keys' with
 the Option modifier etc., but that did not work, too (this either
 produce no symbol at all or something else than an '@').
 
 Matthias
 

Wow, I remember that from the old Atari 400 and 800.  They had the quote
key above the 2 as well.  I would suggest checking your keymapping, and
make sure you've got the right keyboard selected.

Joe
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Re: The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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gray wrote:
 The welfare system is too lenient.  There are a number of people who
 refuse to work because they actually take a pay cut by getting a job.
 Something wrong there. The welfare benefit should be less than the
 minimum hourly wage. Can't blame anyone there, hell would you choose to
 not work for more money or working for less? Are you sure you have that
 right?
 
 Chris - you are right to ask this poster to check the facts.  I wonder
 if he was ever on welfare and if so - for how long?  Also I wonder how
 easy it actually is to qualify for this welfare.

I assume you're talking about me as the OP in this case, but it would
help if you would include the Username posted on Date so that it is
easier to follow.  I already replied to Chris' message.

 
 The differential between minimum wage and welfare does not mean 'the
 welfare system is too lenient'.  It means the minimum wage has been
 allowed to stagnate over a long period of time.  That is the problem
 in Australia.  (On the other hand social security here is becoming
 more difficult to access).
 
 In many circumstances welfare recipients get financially penalised for
 taking on work.  But all the measures to remedy this do nothing to
 effect the root cause: the very poor wage rate of many low-status
 jobs.
 
 I think we like to make sure our toilet cleaners and our supermarket
 workers are economically stranded.  Then they will all be forced to
 keep doing their jobs - for us.  And the wages of the other sector of
 the economy just keep escalating.
 
 Why does this poster care about what 'they' do - is he worried there
 will be no one to clean his shoes?

Interesting observation.  I agree that there are workers in the labor
market needed, and certain jobs are not desirable for educated people,
so one could argue that it is better to purposely not educate a certain
number of people so that the only benefit they will have for society is
their unskilled labor.  IMO, it's not a very attractive policy.

Another solution is to pay a fair salary for the work.  Such as where I
lived in the US. A garbage collector earned a much higher wage than one
who worked as a stock-boy in a department store.  The cashiers at the
grocery stores were also paid a decent wage, but only because they had a
union that fought for their rights.  But everyone who had a job earned
more than the people receiving welfare, unless they had a lot of
children declared as dependents.

The problem is not a simple one to solve, because everyone should have
the right to board and housing, but someone has to pay for it.

I remember learning in my youth that Nothing is free, somebody,
somewhere pays for what you get for nothing.  Even the air we breathe
costs money because there are people who monitor it, and that costs
money.  However, we don't individually have to pay for it (yet).

Joe

Joe

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Re: [OT] Re: Command line wave player

[Joe Hart]

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Florian Kulzer wrote:
 On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 10:13:08 +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 Chris Bannister wrote:

[snip]


 We need a list ethicist who is not out to lunch :-)

 Fine.  I nominate you then.  I don't want to be the ethicist anyway. ;)
 
 Only the One True Ethicist would say something like this...
 

Thank you Florian for marking this off-topic as it should be.

To be honest, I don't really think that Chris Bannister would make a
good ethicist.  Not because of his ethics, but because he seems to be
reviving old threads that the last message is a week old when he replies
to them.

I am a bit more timely, but as for being out to lunch, perhaps I am a
bit unique in my views, but I am far from being diagnosed with a mental
disorder.

Perhaps that should change.  I will visit a psychiatrist and see how
much of a loony that he/she thinks I am.  I'll send the bill to you guys  ;)

Joe

PS.  I will stop commenting now on off-topic issues, but I reserve my
right to use analogies when appropriate.
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Re: Typing an '@' symbol on an Apple keyboard

[Joe Hart]

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Mike McCarty wrote:

 Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote:


 Greg Folkert wrote:

 On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 08:45 +0200, Matthias Brennwald (bwm) wrote:

 Dear all

 I'm a complete newbie, and I'm not sure which mailing list is the
 best to post my question (I posted this to debian-user and
 debian-powerpc).

 I successfully installed Debian 4.0 / Etch on my Apple PowerBook G4.
 I managed to setup my (external/USB) Apple keyboard with a
 Swiss-German keymap. However, I could not figure out how to produce
 an '@' symbol... in Mac OS X I press 'Option-g' to type an '@', but
 that does not work in Linux / Debian. Any hints?

 Umm, did you try the obvious one?

 SHIFT-2 (the 2 above the qwerty keys)?

 Yes, I did. On the Apple keyboard, Shift-2 is mapped to something else
 than '@' (propably '', but I am not sure because at the moment I'm in
 
 That sounds like a minimum keyboard, IOW, one which uses the shift
 key just to set/clear bits in the ASCII code. Old ADM terminals were
 like that. The ADM-1 was, anyway. I don't recall the key now. But
 from looking at the ASCII chart, I suggest you try SHIFT-`
 (that's SHIFT-GRAVE_ACCENT, which may be below the tilde (~) on
 your keyboard). On such keyboards, SHIFT just clears bit 0x20.
 
 Mike

Mike, two comments:  1) You don't need to CC: me, I read the list.
2) I did not write any of the above text.  You snipped everything I
wrote without marking it being snipped, but still show my name.

As for the issue at hand, it seems like a simple reassignment of the
keyboard definitions would solve the problem.

If Matthias is only interested in fixing the settings in X, then
dpkg-reconfigure xorg-xserver will walk him through the settings for X,
including the keyboard setup.

Joe
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Re: Adding icons to firefox or thunderbird

[Joe Hart]

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Eric A. Bonney wrote:
 How do I assign the icons to firefox and/or thunderbird?  I have them
 installed an running just fine, but whenever I put an icon on my desktop
 or in a panel I get either nothing or a little gear icon for them.  I
 would like to have the normal icons showing.
 
 Thanks,
 Eric
 
 

It sounds like you're running KDE.  If that is the case, then right
click on the icon and select properties.  Then click on the little
wrench next to where it tells you type of file.  Then click on the icon
itself and a new window will pop up allowing you to select an icon.

So, to sum it up, right click, left click, left click, left click,
select icon.

Now you can see why commands are sometimes a lot easier.  ;)

Joe
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Re: Oh-NOOOOS: Microsoft says Linux infringes 235 of its Patents.

[Joe Hart]

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John Hasler wrote:
 David Baron writes:
 Now there must be a reason why Microsoft browbeat and legally harrassed
 Robertson until he gave up the name Lindows. Certainly.
 
 They _paid_ him.  The reason being that it had become quite clear that the
 court was not only going to allow the continued use of the LINDOWS mark but
 was also going to rule the WINDOWS mark unenforceable.

If I remember correctly, Lindows (now Linspire) actually won the court
case in the USA, but lost here in Europe, and rather than having to use
different names in different places in the world, they settled with
Microsoft.

If you actually read Linspire's (and Freespire's) license agreement[0],
you'll find that the company's policies are not that different than
Microsoft.  The license specifically grants the user only the right to
use the software, but not to do anything else with it.

Joe

[0] http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_End_User_License_Agreement

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Off Topic Messages: (was Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law)

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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John Burnett wrote:
 Roberto, Joe Hart and Celejar
 
 You three seem like really nice guys, but I am getting a
 little old and tired of the off topic posts. So here is my
 question.
 
 How do I blacklist a individual user on this mailing list.
 I would like to do it in ~.spamassassin in the user_prefs file.
 I have tried blacklist_from  blacklist_from_rcvd blacklist_Envelope-
 Sender but none of them seem to work.
 
 Thanks and maybe good-bye, I promise to think about you ocasionally.
 John Burnett
 Mon May 14 19:13:44 CDT 2007
 
 
 
 On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 07:22:53AM -0400, Roberto C. S?nchez wrote:
 On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 09:12:27AM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 Well, I can tell you one difference in news coverage.  When a person is
 accused of a crime (but before they are tried), the American system uses
 the presumption of innocence, but the media print the name (and
 sometimes photos) of the accused and seriously damage the reputation of
 the accused and make it much more difficult for a fair trial to take
 place because the public has already formed the idea that said accused
 are guilty.
 
 

This thread is marked off topic.  If you don't want to see it, then set
up a filter in a good MUA and you will not see off topic messages again.

As for the discussion at hand, it is getting near the end, as we seem to
have reached an agreement on the issues, or at least agree to disagree
where we don't agree.

Complaining about off topic threads just creates more off topic threads.
 The best thing to do is just ignore it if you don't want to
participate.  That same advice applies to any thread.

Joe
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Re: Control Center Problems in KDE 3.5.5

[Joe Hart]

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Florian Kulzer wrote:
 On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 06:28:03 +, David Dawson wrote:
 Florian Kulzer wrote:

 aptitude -F '%?p%?v' search '~i~dkde' | awk '/3\.5\.6/{print $1,$2}'
 Thanks.
 This is what I get from the above command:
 kde-i18n-engb 4:3.5.6-1
 kde-i18n-eo 4:3.5.6-1
 kde-i18n-fr 4:3.5.6-1

 Is any package there likely to be involved? If I were to add a non-broken
 i18n-xxx package, would that solve the problem?.
 
 I once had a problem similar to yours when I accidentally upgraded
 kdelibs-data to a newer version while the rest of KDE was still at the
 older version. The i18n packages are less fundamental but they do
 contain all the text that is used for British, Esperanto and French
 locales. I think it is possible that a version mismatch with these
 packages interferes with the KDE Control Centre. (I don't use any of
 the i18n packages myself, so I don't know for sure.)
 
 I would try to downgrade these three packages to their 3.5.5 version.
 
 You might still have the old .deb files in /var/cache/apt/archives/ and
 in that case you can install them with dpkg -i  You can also add
 stable (or etch) lines to your /etc/apt/sources.list, run aptitude
 update and then use
 
 aptitude install kde-i18n-engb=4:3.5.5-1
 
 or
 
 aptitude install kde-i18n-engb/stable
 aptitude install kde-i18n-engb/etch
 
 to downgrade. (It works the same with apt-get in case your prefer to use
 that.)
 
 After you have downgraded all three packages, restart KDE and hope for
 the best.
 

The other option is to upgrade the KDE packages from Sid/Unstable, since
they are all there.

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
[snip]
 The point is in the pressure applied by lobbyists is well received in
 the American system.  SIG's are quite alive and active.  The same is
 true in other countries, but overall the Netherlands is much less
 influenced by the interest of special groups (like the RIAA)
 
 Lobbyists pressure government; if the government doesn't regulate the
 news media, than we *still* don't have an explanation for how the
 difference in news coverage can be related to differences in systems of
 government.

Well, I can tell you one difference in news coverage.  When a person is
accused of a crime (but before they are tried), the American system uses
the presumption of innocence, but the media print the name (and
sometimes photos) of the accused and seriously damage the reputation of
the accused and make it much more difficult for a fair trial to take
place because the public has already formed the idea that said accused
are guilty.

Here, the newspapers are not allowed to print the full name, only the
initial, so they could say Joe H. was found to be engaged in a
political debate.  His statements were quite controversial and a
independent inquiry is being formed to determine if his statements led
the government to believe that he is an extremist.

While that certainly implies guilt, my name is not slurred in the process.


[snip]

 I am torn when it comes to the Sudan issue.  While I agree that
 something needs to be done to save the innocent people, I don't think a
 military action would be the right solution.  It would be very similar
 to what happened in Somalia, and that was quite a disgrace.  I am afraid
 that Africa on a general scale is a very difficult situation.
 
 It certainly is, but as far as I'm concerned, the only question of
 whether to invade is whether we can accomplish anything significant,
 not any pedantic legal concerns.
 
 What I would like to know is why the United States backs Israel in what
 could be considered inhumane treatment of people under it's control
 (illegally for the last 39 years).
 If you refer to our general support of Israel, that's simply explained;
 Israel, for any faults it may have, is a friendly, democratic ally, the
 only one in the region, and it's surrounded by vicious, savage,
 murderous and sometimes lunatic neighbors. If you're referring to
 support of specific aspects of Israeli policy that you consider
 inhumane treatment of people under it's control, please be more
 specific. Incidentally, I believe that the charge of illegality is
 debatable.
 Well, the Israelis certainly would think it debatable, but even the UN
 
 'Even' the UN ?! In addition to whom, the Arab League?
 
 declared Israels capture of the Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip an
 illegal action, and issued a mandate for their withdrawal.
 
 They certainly didn't declare the captures illegal; this is just flat
 out false. As to whether the UN has declared the subsequent occupation
 illegal, that's also debatable. Apparently Kofi Annan said so, and was
 criticized for it in an op-ed piece in the NY Times by Columbia law
 professor George Fletcher [0]; the actual resolutions aren't apparently
 completely clear. Wikipedia has a helpful discussion of the issues
 [1]; although one certainly can't cite it as an authoritative source on
 such a hot button issue, my brief glance at the article (as it exists
 today ...) seems to indicate that it's at least somewhat neutral. 
 
 I don't argue that Israel is in the middle of a hotbed.  I also don't
 argue that they have the right to protect themselves.  What I do argue
 with is the heavy hand they use in doing so.
 
 We can debate that, but my point was that our support for them is
 perfectly understandable.
 

Interesting reading.  I would like to point out that I have a map,
actually the Reader's Digest Atlas of the World, which contain maps of
the area, (c) 1989 by Rand McNally  Company. that shows the areas as
occupied by Israel, and does not show them as part of Israel.

There is no point in me debating this issue.  I cannot see a good
solution, and your arguments are too strong.  I will concede to you that
it is questionable as to whether Israel is in violation of international
law.

I will also point out that it is questionable whether the United States
should be in Iraq.  To many Iraqi people, the US are the invaders.  Same
can be said for Afghanistan.  The Soviets tried to control Afganistan
for many years.  They learned that those people will fight forever.  The
United States has yet to learn that.  It all boils down to a discussion
that already took place and that is whether one can force democracy by
gunpoint.  Personally, I don't think so.

 I also don't think a suicide bomber blowing up a restaurant in a crowded
 market place is right.  I can understand that the Palestinians can only
 mount so much of an attack, but attacking innocent citizens is not any
 way to gain sympathy for their 

Re: Business card iso

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dan H wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 13:18:20 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I downloaded the business card .iso for i386 from

 http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/

 and the 31MB file downloads fine, however, when I try to open the file
 with k3b to burn it to a CD (because this machine won't boot off of
 USB) k3b says it is unable to open the file.
 
 Are you trying to open it using the file dialog? That won't work
 because this is an ISO, not a k3b project file. You need to go though
 k3b's Tools  Burn CD image dialog.
 
 Just a shot in the dark...
 
 --D.
 
 

Normally, if one right clicks on an .iso file and selects Open
With...k3b, k3b is smart and opens the Burn CD image dialog.  I have
done this many times.

At this point it doesn't matter because my objective (install Sid) is
completed. I used the exact same procedure to create a new netinstall cd
from the same website, intalled Lenny, then dist-upgraded it to Sid. It
worked flawlessly.

Joe
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Re: Menu question

[Joe Hart]

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Tim wrote:
 Roberto C. S�nchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On Sat, May 12, 2007 at 10:11:49PM -0300, Tim wrote:
 I've scoured google, but I can't seem to find a solution to how to change
 my menu format.

 Currently my menu items are listed like this:
 Web Browser (Iceweasel Web Browser)
 Web Browser (Konqueror)
 Mail Client (Kmail)
 etc.

 I would like to change them to just include the program name without the
 description:
 Iceweasel
 Konqueror
 Kmail
 etc.

 Is there any way to do that?

 I'm running Debian Etch, upgraded from Sarge.
 Which menu are you talking about?
 
 Good point, sorry about that, I'm referring to the KDE menu.
 

Right click on the menu item in question and choose edit item.  That
will launch KDE's menu editor.  There you can change the name.  While
you are there, you can change any other menu item, you don't have to
endlessly right click on each item.

Joe
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Re: Menu question

[Joe Hart]

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Thilo Six wrote:
 Joe Hart wrote the following on 13.05.2007 18:26:
 
 snip
 
 Right click on the menu item in question and choose edit item.  That
 will launch KDE's menu editor.  There you can change the name.  While
 you are there, you can change any other menu item, you don't have to
 endlessly right click on each item.
 
 There is also an easier way.
 
 kcontrol  Desktop  Panels  Menus
 
 click menu item format - Name only
 
 tataa
 
 but well yes you could also change each entry there
 
 Joe
 
 bye Thilo

I don't see how that could be easier, but I guess there's more than one
way to skin a cat.  There are some people that probably think the best
way to go about it would be to run kmenuedit from a terminal (or by
pressing alt-f2) and be done with it.  ;)

Joe


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Re: Advise on backing up files in Etch.

[Joe Hart]

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� wrote:
 What application do you think its best for backing up /home files in
 Debian Etch?
 
 Thank you.

There are a lot of different ways to go about this.  One of the most
common programs do do this is tar.

rsync is good if you have another place that you would like to use as a
mirror.

Then there are things like rdiff that let you do incremental backups of
only things that change.

You really just need to find the tool that is best for you.

Joe
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Re: iceape (mozilla browser) and CSS of gallery website

[Joe Hart]

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Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 05/11/07 16:33, H.S. wrote:
 Hello,
 
 If I try to enlarge the fonts (CTRL+Wheel) in iceape of this website:
 http://gallery.menalto.com/
 
 the menus, or those little gray background windows, on the right hand
 jump into the middle of the page after a few magnification steps.
 
 Is it just my iceape or is something wrong with the web page (bad CSS)?
 
 This is on Debian Etch, fully updated.
 
 Same thing happens to me with iceweasel.  As for whether it's a
 Mozilla or page issue, good question...  :\
 

With my test (with iceweasel and konqueror), it depends on how large you
make the text.  If it goes beyond a certain level, yes the windows move.
 The way I see it, it is poor web page design.

Joe
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Re: 32 54 bit shared libraries -- how to?

[Joe Hart]

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SteveM wrote:
 All the machines on my network mount /usr/local/lib/... using NFS.  This has 
 worked well for me until I added 64 bit boxen.  64bit perl chokes on 32bit 
 compiled libraries.
 
 I feel there must be a simple solution.  How have others solved this problem?
 
 
 thx,
 stevem
 
 

While the 64-bit processors can run 32 bit code, the way it works, AFAIK
will not allow one to mix 32 bit code and 64 bit code in the same
userspace.  That is why 32 bit libraries don't work.  They work fine if
the program that is calling them is 32 bits, but a 64 bit program needs
64 bit libraries.

Joe


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Re: linux-image-2.6-* dependency issues [was Re: Business card iso]

[Joe Hart]

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Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
 On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:11:48AM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 06:37:47PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:
 
 ~$ apt-cache policy linux-image-2.6.20-1-686
 linux-image-2.6.20-1-686:
   Installed: 2.6.20-3
   Candidate: 2.6.20-3
   Version table:
  *** 2.6.20-3 0
 500 http://ftp.ro.debian.org sid/main Packages
 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

 Strange thing is that linux-image-2.6-686 doesn't depend on it so I had 
 to select it specificaly.
 I wondered why all these people have been talking about 2.6.20 stuff
 when my up-to-date sid is still at .18. 

 Is that a bug of l-i-2.6-*?

 Andrew, see my other message.  It boils down to:  I need 2.6.21 because
 it fixes a timing issue that affects this computer.

 
 that doesn't answer my question:
 
 Is it a bug of l-i-2.6-* that it doesn't depend on the latest kernel
 (i.e. 2.6.20-3). AIUI, that package should always depends on the
 latest 2.6 kernel, but apparently, it doesn't
 
 A

I agree with you.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Roberto � wrote:
 On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 06:04:09PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 The same can be said about package managers.  While we all most likely
 agree that apt is a superior package manager, there are those that think
 RPM is by far better, and others that think the only real way to run a
 GNU/Linux system is to compile everything yourself.  We can't all be right.

 To nitpick, rpm is on the same level as dpkg.  They are only package
 managers on the lowest level.  As in, they let you install directly from
 a file on disk, list the contents of packages, and so on.
 
 At least, generally when people talk about package managers, they
 usually mean something like synaptic, aptitude or even apt-get.
 
 Regards,
 
 -Roberto
 

Right you are.  I mean yum or up2date, or whatever other higher level
commands that Red Hat and their offshoots are using.  I know of at least
one RPM based distro using apt-get.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
 On Fri, 11 May 2007 18:13:59 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 19:59:56 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 [snip]

 Faith is by definition believing in something that cannot be proven, and
 that is what religion usually is.  It is not wrong to believe in a
 faith, and Roberto and Celejar do a good job of defending their religion.
 Thanks.

 I fall more into Greg's camp.
 Into what camp does Greg fall?
  
 Surely you know this answer already.  It has been made clear that he is
 an atheist who believes in evil.
 
 Do you mean Ron? I know that's his position; I just don't recall Greg
 weighing in here. 
 
 [snip]
 
 Joe
 
 Celejar
 --
 mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
 ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator
 
 
Yes.  {pulls foot from mouth} Sorry Greg, I meant Ron.  For some reason
I seem to confuse the two.  Maybe because they are both very good at
helping people and have a similar sense of humor.  I will try to be more
careful.

If I could withdraw that statement I would.  It is not my place on this
list, or anywhere else for that matter to place my ideas in other
people's heads, except perhaps when it comes to their using very poor
operating systems that cause them loads of grief.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Celejar wrote:
 On Fri, 11 May 2007 11:40:20 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 11:40:01 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Ron Johnson wrote:
 [snip]
 I am playing the Devil's advocate here.  So I might as well fulfill my
 role.  So, you're saying God was merciful on Isaac because a lamb was
 sacrificed instead.  Fine.  So God demanded cruelty to an animal, which
 is also against our modern laws.
 Cruelty?  Where does that come from?

 Or are you a vegan?
 No, but I don't think it is right to kill an animal for any purpose than
 to eat it, or perhaps to end it's suffering.  But, that's where we can
 What possible logical / moral justification do you have for that
 distinction? If one believes that there's some purpose to animal
 sacrifice, and the Bible clearly does, than how on earth can you
 conclude that that purpose is any less of a legitimate one than
 nourishment?
 Well, just try it.  Go out and sacrifice a few dogs or cats and watch
 the Humane Society step in.  Do it in front of the police headquarter
 
 I don't particularly care what they think. You are attacking the Bible
 as advocating immoral behavior because the Humane Society disagrees
 with biblical morality?
 
 building to save a bit of time.  Oh wait.  We don't eat dogs and cats
 (well in some places they do) go sacrifice a little lamb.  Make sure you
 steal it from Mary. ;)

 To me, animal sacrifice is immoral.  To the law it is too.  That is my
 logical justification.
 
 I asked you for a logical justification for a distinction between
 killing an animal for food and killing it for religious ritual, and
 you're responding that the distinction is that that's how you and the
 law feel. Surely you can do better than that!
 
 Joe
 
 Celejar
 --
 mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
 ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator
 
 

I did, in another message in this thread.

I will quote my own message:
qoute
The difference is that the person dressing the lamb is preparing it
for use, usually to eat.  That serves a purpose in at least nourishing
the body.  I suppose sacrificing the lamb could be said to be nourishing
the spirit, but I don't think a court of law would see it that way.
/quote

So, what I am saying is that to some people it may seem justified to
slaughter an animal to feed their spirit.  I just don't think that the
authorities, if they found out about it would accept this excuse as
cause for committing an illegal act.

That being said, if you want to do it, go right ahead.  I have no
problem with you doing whatever ritual you feel is appropriate to your
faith, as long as it doesn't involve me.

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Celejar wrote:
 On Fri, 11 May 2007 18:42:26 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Celejar wrote:
 [snip]
 Yes, I consider the USA my country too.  I have dual nationality, so I
 am American and Dutch.  I see the pros and cons of both systems of
 government, and I have no real preference to one over the other.  But
 the media issue is a strong point for the Dutch.
 But as I asked you in another post, what does that have to do with
 systems of government?
 
 [snipped Joe's political views]
 
 I have no problem with your views, but you apparently misunderstood my
 question. I meant How do your alleged differences in media relate to
 systems of government??

The point is in the pressure applied by lobbyists is well received in
the American system.  SIG's are quite alive and active.  The same is
true in other countries, but overall the Netherlands is much less
influenced by the interest of special groups (like the RIAA)
 
 As for the foreign policy, the countries are actually similar, but the
 one big difference is that The Netherlands is not actively forcing
 democracy on other countries (although they do participate in Bosnia and
 in Afghanistan).
 Of course. The question is, though, which way is better? Should we not
 invade the Sudan to save innocent lives, because that would be forcing
 our liberal notions of decency on the savages there? 

 The only time the United States gets involved is when it is in their
 interests to do so.  Why didn't anything happen in Rwanda?
 
 Rwanda is unquestionably a stain on our (and everyone else's) record.
 
  
 Sudan is different because it is Islamic fundamentalist that are doing
 much of the fighting, and we know that in today's war on terror, Islamic
 Fundamentalist are being targeted.
 
 You're not addressing the question I'm posing: should we intervene in
 the Sudan to save innocent lives, or would you object to that as
 forcing democracy on other countries?

I am torn when it comes to the Sudan issue.  While I agree that
something needs to be done to save the innocent people, I don't think a
military action would be the right solution.  It would be very similar
to what happened in Somalia, and that was quite a disgrace.  I am afraid
that Africa on a general scale is a very difficult situation.

 
 
 What I would like to know is why the United States backs Israel in what
 could be considered inhumane treatment of people under it's control
 (illegally for the last 39 years).
 
 If you refer to our general support of Israel, that's simply explained;
 Israel, for any faults it may have, is a friendly, democratic ally, the
 only one in the region, and it's surrounded by vicious, savage,
 murderous and sometimes lunatic neighbors. If you're referring to
 support of specific aspects of Israeli policy that you consider
 inhumane treatment of people under it's control, please be more
 specific. Incidentally, I believe that the charge of illegality is
 debatable.

Well, the Israelis certainly would think it debatable, but even the UN
declared Israels capture of the Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip an
illegal action, and issued a mandate for their withdrawal.

I don't argue that Israel is in the middle of a hotbed.  I also don't
argue that they have the right to protect themselves.  What I do argue
with is the heavy hand they use in doing so.

I also don't think a suicide bomber blowing up a restaurant in a crowded
market place is right.  I can understand that the Palestinians can only
mount so much of an attack, but attacking innocent citizens is not any
way to gain sympathy for their cause.

Joe
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Re: Ffmpeg and Ipod

[Joe Hart]

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hackarre wrote:
 El ds 12 de 05 del 2007 a les 11:35 +0200, en/na Magnus Pedersen va
 escriure:
 hackarre wrote:
 Hello everyone!

 I'm quite new in Debian, I used to use Ubuntu. Everything is great but
 the problem is to convert my videos to the ipod format. I've heard about
 many programs doing that function, such as thinliquidfilm, avi2palm...
 OK but all of them need ffmpeg configured to enable xvid and some more
 stuff, I don't know how to get the source to configure it. Do I need any
 special repostory with a better version of ffmpeg?

 Thank you for your attention.


 Take a look here perhaps:

 http://debian-multimedia.org/index.html

 /Magnus
 
 I added deb http://mirror.home-dn.net/debian-multimedia sarge main to my
  ^
I would suggest that you upgrade your system to Etch.  I would think
that would help.  You might even need to grab the ffmpeg from Lenny or
Sid to get the support you're looking for.  I don't have an iPod, so I
can't be certain that my suggestion would help, but I do know that Sarge
is old, and Etch is now the stable version of Debian and you're much
more likely to get support for newer hardware and codecs by upgrading to
it. 

 repostories updated, removed and reinstalled ffmpeg and know the error
 is like that:


[snip error]

Joe
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Re: iceape (mozilla browser) and CSS of gallery website

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

KS wrote:
 Joe Hart wrote:

 http://gallery.menalto.com/

 With my test (with iceweasel and konqueror), it depends on how large you
 make the text.  If it goes beyond a certain level, yes the windows move.
 The way I see it, it is poor web page design.

 
 poor web page design is a bit extreme I think. The error occurs after
 different number of zoom ins for iceweasel and konqueror (different
 browsers, different zoom ratios maybe?). Zoom levels being different for
 different browsers, one can't define till how may zoom-ins the layout
 works. Plus after a few zoom-ins almost every page on the web becomes
 hard to read.
 
 Take for example the BBC News home page http://news.bbc.co.uk Text
 starts to jumble up because of breaking layout after 7 or 8
 zoom-ins(iceweasel, mouse-wheel zoom). However, the page is easily
 readable with only 1 or 2 zoom-ins. Would I call it poor web page
 design? No. The layout breaking problem will occur for all pages at some
 point if your client allows you more zoom-ins.
 
 I would rather judge a page with: Is the page readable after 2-3
 zoom-ins(or 125% or 150%)? The gallery menalto web page works fine for
 that criteria. I would consider the problem a bug(solution provided in
 other post) rather than name it poor web page design.

Yes, I agree with you on the solution, but if I am not the webmaster to
the site, I cannot change it.

Needless to say, you are right about if someone zooms too much.  I will
give the designer of that site high marks for design if it applies your
fix.  I was pleasantly surprised that the site properly adjusts itself
if I resize my browser.  Something a lot of modern sites do not do.

My comment of poor design is withdrawn.  It is actually one of the
better sites on the web that just needs some minor adjustments that you
so kindly pointed out.

I really should learn to keep my big mouth shut sometimes.  Something
that I am sure several others on this list would agree with, but then
how could I be the list ethicist? ;)

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 18:24:42 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
 Further reading:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
 My understanding of the period leads me to believe that the second bomb
 was dropped as to prove to the Japanese that the first bomb was not a
 fluke and the same type of bomb could be repeatedly dropped until they
 surrendered.  While I agree that it came a bit too soon after the first
 bomb, and some diplomatic efforts should have been attempted after the
 first, lines of communication were poor then, and how many more Allied
 lives would have been lost if the fighting continued?

 The number of American lives were the only things that the US considered
 worthwhile at the time.
 
 I appreciate the defense of my country (our country? do you still
 consider it yours?), but I would disagree about the number of American
 lives being the only thing the US considered worthwhile; they probably
 saved (in the long run) Japanese lives too, and I daresay at least some
 US politicians and military personnel considered that.

Yes, I consider the USA my country too.  I have dual nationality, so I
am American and Dutch.  I see the pros and cons of both systems of
government, and I have no real preference to one over the other.  But
the media issue is a strong point for the Dutch.

As for the foreign policy, the countries are actually similar, but the
one big difference is that The Netherlands is not actively forcing
democracy on other countries (although they do participate in Bosnia and
in Afghanistan).

What I am so against is the fact that the US seems to think it is their
right to go to other counties, where they do not have jurisdiction and
kidnap people that *may* be terrorists and hold them for years without
actually charging them with a crime.  This is very contrary to the bill
of rights that all Americans enjoy, or at least used to.

Now, don't think I am defending terrorism because I am not.  I am
however defending the rights of people to know what they are accused of,
and for the police to have some probable cause before they tear apart
someone's house, and heresay is not admissible in most courts, so having
someone just say you're a terrorist is not grounds for probably cause.

On the other hand, how can one pro actively stop a band of terrorists?
There is a very fine line between privacy and secrecy.  Therein lies the
problem.  The thought police must exist if they are to stop people from
committing atrocities before they commit them.

Arguing both sides of the issse will not get me anywhere, and I really
don't want to argue in the first place.  What I am saying is simply that
this issue is a very difficult balancing act and it is very difficult to
keep from going overboard, and I think the USA has done exactly that
with respect to this so called war.  What they are doing now just breeds
more terrorists. I think we all don't want that to happen.

I don't know about you, but I would rather not be blown up by a suicide
bomber, and I do know that it is impossible to stop someone from
inflicting damage if they are intent in going down in flames.  Sure, one
can minimize the damage, but there is damage nevertheless.

What really fears me is that it is just a matter of time before one
group of radicals gets access to WMD and I pray they don't send them my way.

Joe

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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Hash: SHA1

Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED]  said:
 [...]
 God help those who
 help themselves.
 
   
 Sorry, but the wording of that strikes me as very funny.  It /should/
 read, God /helps/ those who help themselves.
 
 Cybe R. Wizard -is it just me?

Yes, you are correct. My hands are not quite as fast as my brain and I
tend to rely too much on the spell checking than to take the time to
proofread.  Shame on me.

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
 Joe Hart wrote:
 [snip]
 
 I say Germany is less free than The Netherlands.  I can do things like
 post on the internet how one can download libdvdcss2 so they can play
 CDs.  If I lived in Germany I would be breaking the law by doing that,
 because in Germany that is considered assisting people in breaking the
 law, and that is against the law.
 
 Well, I'm not sure about that. The law is really not very close to
 praxis. Implementation of a copy protection scheme obliges the holder of
 the copyright to
 - clearly label the stuff that it is encrypted.
 - to provide the means for legal owners of that material to use them.
 
 I have never seen a DVD that follows these requirements, therefore IMHO
 none of these constitutes a proper encryption according to the German
 law, ie. you would not be 'breaking' a valid encryption.
 
 According to the law (ý95a-d UrhG), advertisement for *sale* of such
 programs is illegal. As long as you don't advertise for commercial
 versions of libdvdcss2, you don't break that law.
 
 You are helping people to take their legal rights, because without
 libdvdcss2 they have no means of persuing their right to watch videos (I
 assume they just want to watch a legal DVD).
 
 Just as I understand it reading the text of the law and what I find on
 the internet about it.

Very interesting.  I think the law is similar here.  Although there are
organizations like the RIAA here that are trying very hard to change the
laws so that we would not own the things we buy.  The whole idea that
someone telling me what I can and cannot do on or with my computer (when
other computers are not effected) strikes me as foul.

Joe

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Re: Business card iso

[Joe Hart]

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Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 06:37:47PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 02:39:19PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:

 I went ahead and downloaded the net install for Lenny, and have since
 upgraded it to Sid.  It works just fine, and the only differences so far
 that I noticed is that Sid uses the 2.6.18-k7 (so does Lenny) on this
 system by default, and there doesn't seem to be any later kernel
 available in the Sid repo.
 ~$ apt-cache policy linux-image-2.6.20-1-686
 linux-image-2.6.20-1-686:
   Installed: 2.6.20-3
   Candidate: 2.6.20-3
   Version table:
  *** 2.6.20-3 0
 500 http://ftp.ro.debian.org sid/main Packages
 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

 Strange thing is that linux-image-2.6-686 doesn't depend on it so I had 
 to select it specificaly.
 
 I wondered why all these people have been talking about 2.6.20 stuff
 when my up-to-date sid is still at .18. 
 
 Is that a bug of l-i-2.6-*?
 
 A

Andrew, see my other message.  It boils down to:  I need 2.6.21 because
it fixes a timing issue that affects this computer.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 11:40:01 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Ron Johnson wrote:
 [snip]
 I am playing the Devil's advocate here.  So I might as well fulfill my
 role.  So, you're saying God was merciful on Isaac because a lamb was
 sacrificed instead.  Fine.  So God demanded cruelty to an animal, which
 is also against our modern laws.
 Cruelty?  Where does that come from?

 Or are you a vegan?
 No, but I don't think it is right to kill an animal for any purpose than
 to eat it, or perhaps to end it's suffering.  But, that's where we can
 
 What possible logical / moral justification do you have for that
 distinction? If one believes that there's some purpose to animal
 sacrifice, and the Bible clearly does, than how on earth can you
 conclude that that purpose is any less of a legitimate one than
 nourishment?

Well, just try it.  Go out and sacrifice a few dogs or cats and watch
the Humane Society step in.  Do it in front of the police headquarter
building to save a bit of time.  Oh wait.  We don't eat dogs and cats
(well in some places they do) go sacrifice a little lamb.  Make sure you
steal it from Mary. ;)

To me, animal sacrifice is immoral.  To the law it is too.  That is my
logical justification.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 05/10/07 05:59, Joe Hart wrote:
 Ron Johnson wrote:
 Suicide should be legal, but euthanasia is someone else killing
 you, and I see that as a great slippery slope towards total
 government control over life.
 
 Well, it isn't.  Neither is euthanasia there, but the government does
 find it perfectly moral to put criminals to death, and not to protect
 unborn children.  I don't see very much consistency in the policies.
 
 and not to protect unborn children??
 
 To me, that appears to be an anti-abortion position.  Am I
 misunderstanding you?
 

I can debate both sides of that issue.  Personally, I am pro choice.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Roberto � wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 07:59:56PM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 Faith is by definition believing in something that cannot be proven, and
 that is what religion usually is.  It is not wrong to believe in a
 faith, and Roberto and Celejar do a good job of defending their religion.

 
 Your definition is slightly off:
 
   Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the
   evidence of things not seen.
 
 Regards,
 
 -Roberto

Fine, I will alter it to fit in line with the above:

Faith is hoping that something is true while not being able to prove it.

or

There is proof, fact, truth.  Faith does not fall in this category
because it cannot be substantiated.  But, then where is the One True God?

My point is that God, if She exists, is beyond our comprehension.  We
have to have faith in Her existence.

Joe
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Re: help!

[Joe Hart]

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Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 10:37:08AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 12:50:23 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 [snip]

 Well, since some people on this list seem not to take me seriously, you
 might not want to either ;)
 Of course we take you seriously, Joe. Some people just find you fun to
 tease.
 
 I'll check with the list ethicist on that ...
 
 A

ROFL

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 19:50:53 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Joe wrote:
 Joe Hart wrote:
 So you're saying we're going to be the UESSR and not the USE?  Oh no,
 people will start calling us the commies.  ;)

 No, I didn't mean to say that's what it will be called, just that the
 EU has very much more in common with the USSR than with the USA, and
 that it could be seen as quite offensive to use the term 'United States'
 in relation to Europe. The EU Constitution is about as far away from the
 US Constitution as it is possible to get.

 There's been a few murmurs from some old USSR satellite countries now
 in the EU that they thought they'd got away from that kind of thing...


 Well, the EU constitution has not been ratified, and I agree with you
 that it is a bad thing.  That's why I (and the majority of the Dutch and
 French people) voted against it.  Some European countries have not had a
 
 I understood that much of the French opposition to it was due to their
 wanting to *preserve* certain aspects of their current socialistic
 system and the EU rules would have forced them to add more freedom to
 their economy. Am I mistaken?
 

I cannot say why the French voted against it.  I just know they did.

 referendum specifically because they are afraid their populous will vote
 against it.

 However, going so far as to say that it is closer to the USSR than to
 the USA is going quite overboard.  As for freedoms, can you go anywhere
 in the world you want to?  Oh, that's right.  You cannot enjoy legally a
 Cuban cigar, nor can you legally visit the pristine beaches in that country.
 
 Lovely. When we slapped the USSR with the Jackson-Vanik sanctions
 because of its civil rights offenses, did that upset you because your
 freedoms were thereby restricted? 

The USSR ceased to exist before I left the USA, so I have no idea how
those sanctions *would* have affected me.

 Really, I have seen both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, I lived 30 years
 in the USA, and I know the laws, and I thought I was free when I was
 there.  It is just in the last few years I have come to realize that the
 American propaganda machine was in full swing.  It still is.  Tell me,
 why is the World News dominated by American news when it comes on the
 television?  Why is CNN International different in the US than it is in
 Europe?
 
 What does the news coverage have to do with freedom? Are you alleging
 government control of the media here? And you *still* haven't really
 explained why you feel so much freer there than here, other than your
 ability to ask your doctor to kill you, and before that, to download
 libdvdcss. [I'm not convinced the McCarthyism situation here is as bad
 as you think it is.]
 

No, I don't this it is, but it has been.  Good example of the escorts
during the Iraq invasion.  The US did not want to have war showing up in
the living rooms of the American public like it did during Vietnam.
They learned a good lesson in that respect, still there are more people
that do not support the war than those that do.

As for the McCarthyism, perhaps you are correct.  I have not been in the
United State (except for vacations) for several years, and my only
source of information is my mother, who is not a typical example of one
living on the front lines of conflict.

However, I see a big gang problem happening in some urban areas, and I
certainly wouldn't want to be hit by a stray bullet.  Which brings us
back to the gun laws.

Since I am American, I say this:  Make guns mandatory.  If everyone has
one, when a criminal brandishes one, a large number of citizens can
draw.  The problem is that the ordinary citizens do not have guns and
have no defense against the criminals that do. Here (and in most of
Europe) guns are much more difficult to obtain, but the hard criminals
can still find them, therefore the police carry guns.

However, there are a small number of hard criminals.  One is much more
likely to get stabbed than shot by a would be attacker here.  Neither is
of course desirable, but I don't see any government outlawing a steak knife.

Joe


 Joe
 
 Celejar
 --
 mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email
 ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator
 
 

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Re: OT: Can't we just drop all the OT stuff...

[Joe Hart]

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Hash: SHA1

Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 04:07:19AM -0500, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
 Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 12:58:06PM -0400, Greg Folkert wrote:
 Come on, we all come here for TOPICAL discussions and bare metal
 Debian stuff.
 Cautions: Debian-user is intended for topical application only. Not to
 be taken internally. If accidently ingested, seek professional help
 immediately. Do not induce vomiting. 

 A
 Call the list ethicist immediately. Or better, send an e-mail...
 
 Joe! Joe! Where's Joe Hart!
 
 A

Sleeping.  I think he overdosed on sleeping pills or something because
he doesn't seem to be active much anymore.

Joe! Wake up! slap

Huh?  What?

Joe
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Re: Removing Gnome

[Joe Hart]

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Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 05/10/07 19:38, Eric A. Bonney wrote:
 I have decided that I prefer the KDE interface more than Gnome.  Is it
 ok to just uninstall the entire Gnome package?  Is there an easy way to
 remove them with just a single command at the command prompt?
 
 It depends.
 
 Of course, it's not really *necessary* to get rid of GNOME: just
 stop using it.
 

That is a solution.

There are a lot of gnome libraries that some programs (like iceweasel)
use, so getting rid of all of gnome could be risky.

You could try with aptitude to remove Gnome, and it should warn you
which other packages depend on ones you are trying to remove.  So, you
can tell aptitude to keep those.  The problem comes in knowing which
library does what.  When in doubt, I would say, keep.

Joe

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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Roberto � wrote:
 On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:31:20AM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 My point is that God, if She exists, is beyond our comprehension.  We
 have to have faith in Her existence.

 A valid point, except that God is in fact a He.
 
 Regards,
 
 -Roberto
 

Now it is you that missed my point.  I am saying that nobody really
*knows* what God is.  I am sure there are many females that would
disagree with you on this point.  Personally, I would better define God
at as It.

Let us just agree that to you, God is a He.

Joe
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Re: XFCE, and Gnome

[Joe Hart]

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Masatran, R. Deepak wrote:
 XFCE advertises itself as a fast window manager. But since both are based on
 GTK, won't Gnome be equally fast? What is it that makes XFCE faster than
 Gnome?
 

Good question.

It used to be faster.  Today, I don't think it really is.  IceWM and
Fluxbox are both better alternatives, IMO.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 19:59:56 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 [snip]
 
 Faith is by definition believing in something that cannot be proven, and
 that is what religion usually is.  It is not wrong to believe in a
 faith, and Roberto and Celejar do a good job of defending their religion.
 
 Thanks.
 
 I fall more into Greg's camp.
 
 Into what camp does Greg fall?
  

Surely you know this answer already.  It has been made clear that he is
an atheist who believes in evil.

However, I am rational enough to realize if there is evil, then there
must be good.  Now, whether God is good or not, that is left to
interpretation, if there even is one.

I think it's time for me to bow out of this discussion.  You know my
beliefs.

Joe

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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 05/11/07 04:40, Joe Hart wrote:
 Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 11:40:01 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Ron Johnson wrote:
 [snip]
 I am playing the Devil's advocate here.  So I might as well fulfill my
 role.  So, you're saying God was merciful on Isaac because a lamb was
 sacrificed instead.  Fine.  So God demanded cruelty to an animal, which
 is also against our modern laws.
 Cruelty?  Where does that come from?

 Or are you a vegan?
 No, but I don't think it is right to kill an animal for any purpose than
 to eat it, or perhaps to end it's suffering.  But, that's where we can
 What possible logical / moral justification do you have for that
 distinction? If one believes that there's some purpose to animal
 sacrifice, and the Bible clearly does, than how on earth can you
 conclude that that purpose is any less of a legitimate one than
 nourishment?
 Well, just try it.  Go out and sacrifice a few dogs or cats and watch
 the Humane Society step in.  Do it in front of the police headquarter
 building to save a bit of time.  Oh wait.  We don't eat dogs and cats
 (well in some places they do) go sacrifice a little lamb.  Make sure you
 steal it from Mary. ;)
 
 To me, animal sacrifice is immoral.  To the law it is too.  That is my
 logical justification.
 
 There's not a whole lot of difference between a person killing a
 lamb on an alter, then hanging it on a hook to dress it than what
 a slaughterhouse or farmer does with a lamb.
 
 - From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48
 [gcide]:
4. To adjust; to put in good order; to arrange; specifically:
   (a) To prepare for use; to fit for any use; to render
   suitable for an intended purpose; to get ready; as, to
   dress a slain animal; to dress meat; to dress leather
   or cloth; to dress or trim a lamp; to dress a garden;
   to dress a horse, by currying and rubbing; to dress
   grain, by cleansing it; in mining and metallurgy, to
   dress ores, by sorting and separating them.
 

The difference is that the person dressing the lamb is preparing it
for use, usually to eat.  That serves a purpose in at least nourishing
the body.  I suppose sacrificing the lamb could be said to be nourishing
the spirit, but I don't think a court of law would see it that way.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 05/11/07 06:26, Joe Hart wrote:
 Roberto ý wrote:
 On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:31:20AM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 My point is that God, if She exists, is beyond our comprehension.  We
 have to have faith in Her existence.

 A valid point, except that God is in fact a He.
 Regards,
 -Roberto
 
 Now it is you that missed my point.  I am saying that nobody really
 *knows* what God is.  I am sure there are many females that would
 disagree with you on this point.  Personally, I would better define God
 at as It.
 
 Let us just agree that to you, God is a He.
 
 Or a computer nebula.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfellas
 
 When you do things right, people won't be sure you've
 done anything at all.
 God
 
 You should, if you've never seen it, watch Futurama episode 3ACV20.
 
LOL  Now I need to google for Futurama because that is not a series that
I have ever heard of.

We only get to watch the shows that the people deem worthy of our
attention like CSI and many other crime shows.  It seems that the
television stations like portraying America as a very crime ridden
country when I know in fact that only certain places are dangerous, and
most, if not all, of the information in those shows is clearly fictional.

I can also argue that the Bible is also quite fictional, but that might
bring the wrath of others down on me even harder so I will not engage in
that argument.  Let's let others believe what they want, whether they
are correct or we are.

The same can be said about package managers.  While we all most likely
agree that apt is a superior package manager, there are those that think
RPM is by far better, and others that think the only real way to run a
GNU/Linux system is to compile everything yourself.  We can't all be right.

Joe

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Re: GRUB duplicates kernel entries in menu.lst

[Joe Hart]

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Raffaele Morelli wrote:
 Hi you all
 
 I noticed this strange behaviour in grub, in etch and now in lenny.
 
 Every time update-grub is called, due to a kernel installation or
 removal, menu.lst grows bigger. Installed kernel entries for (recovery
 mode) are duplicated, same thing happened for AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST
 section.
 
 Actually the latter problem seems to be solved after a manual removal of
 AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST duplicates.
 
 I did a apt-get --reinstall install grub and dpkg-reconfigure grub with
 no success and removing recovery mode duplicated lines does not solve. I
 know I won't be installing and removing kernels every day but I think
 this is worth noting.
 
 Any ideas?
 
I believe that it is designed that way on purpose.  If you install a new
kernel and it doesn't work, you can always fall back to using the old one.

You can safely remove any kernel that you are not running at the time,
but I would recommend keeping 2 kernels.  The current one, and the one
that worked before.  You never know when one might not work and you'll
need the other.

Joe

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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
[snip]
 Yes, I consider the USA my country too.  I have dual nationality, so I
 am American and Dutch.  I see the pros and cons of both systems of
 government, and I have no real preference to one over the other.  But
 the media issue is a strong point for the Dutch.
 
 But as I asked you in another post, what does that have to do with
 systems of government?

opinions
The *ideas* of the American governmental system, meaning how the
constitution was written and the form of government with the checks and
balances is very good.  The way the president is elected (with electors,
and not voters) is not good.

I am not fond of term-limits because the person right for the job should
not be automatically disqualified from running for office, and the whole
idea of a lame-duck just leads to possible misuses of power.  If a
person knows he cannot be re-elected then their accountability to the
constituents is much lower.  The idea of a federal police force is
specifically discouraged, but what is the FBI, ATF and in some cases the
NSA?

I am also against unregulated government organizations like the FCC and
FAA, although I do see the need for their existence, they need to have
some oversight from some other agency and should not have carte-blanch.

There are also problems here:

There are too many political parties, so in order to have a working
government, coalitions must be formed, and in the process of forming the
coalitions, parties quite frequently must abandon the platform that got
them elected in the first place.

The welfare system is too lenient.  There are a number of people who
refuse to work because they actually take a pay cut by getting a job.

Taxes are very high, to pay for many social programs such as the one I
just mentioned.
/opinions
 
 As for the foreign policy, the countries are actually similar, but the
 one big difference is that The Netherlands is not actively forcing
 democracy on other countries (although they do participate in Bosnia and
 in Afghanistan).
 
 Of course. The question is, though, which way is better? Should we not
 invade the Sudan to save innocent lives, because that would be forcing
 our liberal notions of decency on the savages there? 


The only time the United States gets involved is when it is in their
interests to do so.  Why didn't anything happen in Rwanda?

Sudan is different because it is Islamic fundamentalist that are doing
much of the fighting, and we know that in today's war on terror, Islamic
Fundamentalist are being targeted.

What I would like to know is why the United States backs Israel in what
could be considered inhumane treatment of people under it's control
(illegally for the last 39 years).

[snip policy on combating terrorism]
 What really fears me is that it is just a matter of time before one
 group of radicals gets access to WMD and I pray they don't send them my way.
   
 No atheists in the foxholes!

LOL.  Figure of speech.  I hope.

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Brendan wrote:
 On Friday 11 May 2007, Joe Hart wrote:
 What I am so against is the fact that the US seems to think it is their
 right to go to other counties, where they do not have jurisdiction and
 kidnap people that *may* be terrorists and hold them for years without
 actually charging them with a crime.  This is very contrary to the bill
 of rights that all Americans enjoy, or at least used to.
 
 Repeat after me U.S. does not equal Bush.
 Bush is an unfortunate aberration that will be corrected in the next 
 election. 
 End of story

True, and I hope so.  In the meantime a lot of respect has been lost for
the country because of the blunders that have been made during the
current administration.

2009 can not come soon enough.  January 20, 2009 to be specific.

Joe

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Re: XFCE, and Gnome

[Joe Hart]

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Brendan wrote:
 On Friday 11 May 2007, Joe Hart wrote:
 Masatran, R. Deepak wrote:
 XFCE advertises itself as a fast window manager. But since both are based
 on GTK, won't Gnome be equally fast? What is it that makes XFCE faster
 than Gnome?
 Good question.

 It used to be faster.  Today, I don't think it really is.  IceWM and
 Fluxbox are both better alternatives, IMO.
 
 Used to be faster seems to mean that you have then and now comparisons. 
 Where do these comparisons live so I can take a peek?
 
 
No, I do not have comparisons because I only used it very briefly.  I
should be a bit more careful in my statements.  I will rephrase.

The older versions were much lighter than the current version in their
resource usage.  However, the new version has many feature additions to
make it more functional, and therefore need the additional resources.
With modern computers the difference is negligible, but for a older
computer that has limited memory, there are better alternatives.

Joe
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Re: XFCE, and Gnome

[Joe Hart]

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Brendan wrote:
 On Friday 11 May 2007, Joe Hart wrote:
 Brendan wrote:
 On Friday 11 May 2007, Joe Hart wrote:
 Masatran, R. Deepak wrote:
 XFCE advertises itself as a fast window manager. But since both are
 based on GTK, won't Gnome be equally fast? What is it that makes XFCE
 faster than Gnome?
 Good question.

 It used to be faster.  Today, I don't think it really is.  IceWM and
 Fluxbox are both better alternatives, IMO.
 Used to be faster seems to mean that you have then and now comparisons.
 Where do these comparisons live so I can take a peek?
 No, I do not have comparisons because I only used it very briefly.  I
 should be a bit more careful in my statements.  I will rephrase.

 The older versions were much lighter than the current version in their
 resource usage.  However, the new version has many feature additions to
 make it more functional, and therefore need the additional resources.
 With modern computers the difference is negligible, but for a older
 computer that has limited memory, there are better alternatives.
 
 Again, I say, show me the mem usage comparisons.
 The core of XFCE doesn't seem to have gotten any slower for me. Same 
 hardware, 
 newer versions...
 
 
Well, why don't you answer the OP's question then instead of asking me
to tell you about things that you obviously know more about than I do?

I do not use XFCE.  I did, at one time, but found it to be not what I
was looking for.  Perhaps if I spent more time configuring it I would
have found it better, but I didn't because I guess I just am too
impatient.  Although you would think if I was so impatient, I would use
a lightweight window manager that would respond instantly to my clicks
instead of in a few milliseconds.  ;)

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
 On Wed, 09 May 2007 08:08:35 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 [snip]
 
 I learned in school politics = power, and power corrupts, so what it
 boils down, how many politicians are trustworthy?  I say very few.
 
 provocation
 
 GNU / linux and Free Software are powerful; do they corrupt?
 
 /provocation
 

My answer:  Yes, it does.  Why?  Because once one learns the power of
GNU/Linux, they will become the geeks that tell all the Windows users
how bad their system is and eventually may even refuse to associate with
them because they feel their former acquaintances are just stupid people
with no common sense, thus corrupting friendships.

It of course is better to adapt the attitude Let's agree to disagree,
but alas, past Linux vs. Windows wars are evidence that the friendly way
out is often followed.

Needless to say, it really doesn't matter what people do with their
computers, as long as they are happy with them, but forcing other people
to do things their way can cause major friction.

That brings us right back on topic, because that is exactly what the
RIAA is trying to do.  Force us to adapt to their ideas of how media
should be used.  Bah!

Joe

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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
[snip]

 No wonder so many people are starting to think
 poorly of the U.S. government.
 
 What I meant is that I think it's obvious that foreign policy (and, I
 suspect, envy) is the real reason, not the type of legislation being
 discussed. [I happen to largely agree with the foreign policy (although
 not necessarily the implementation, and certainly not the PR / spin.)]
 
I don't think envy plays much of a part.  Perhaps it used to, but thing
like Katrina opened up the world's eyes to see how many real Americans
live and not just the ones that the media lets them see.  One of the
things that was shocking to most foreigners I believe was not so much
what happened during the crisis, but that they saw that a large number
of people live in poverty.

 Oh yes, that is why I point out the future United States of Europe.
 Believe me, I don't agree with many thing the EU does.
 
 But it isn't just the future; when has modern Europe been less
 regulation happy than the US?

Well, were I live we have more freedom than those in the US.  At least
in some ways.  Granted, the EU wants The Netherlands to drop some of the
freedoms that we enjoy, and in time perhaps the Dutch government will
succumb to the pressure, but for now, they are steadfast.

 I'm all for hope; I hope that the *Republicans* see the light,
 correct their errors and remain in power (I'm not such a Rep. partisan,
 but I like them, on the whole, more than the Dems.)
 

I used to be Republican, until I saw some of the things that they passed
 post 9/11.  Many of those laws are quite fascist, and they strip many
of the freedoms that are given in the Constitution.  Perhaps when a good
court gets appointed, the laws will be deemed unconstitutional.  Only
time will tell.  In the meantime it is becoming McCarthyism all over
again, on a worse scale.  Accuse your neighbor of being a terrorist and
watch what happens to him.

 What sort of (practical and realistic) changes would you recommend?

I would say, restore more powers to the states and decentralize the
government.  Over the past 100 years, the Federal government has taken
too much control.  Now, if one doesn't like the laws in one state, they
will find that moving to another state will not change a lot.  Now one
must leave the country.  Although some states have different laws than
others, by and large, (mainly due to Federal pressure) they all are the
same.  Some people think this is good.  I do not.

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
[snip]
 Why is the RIAA still able to get away with their fear tactics? 
 Because they know who to bribe. Centralized power creates a target 
 of opportunity for corruption. Europe is learning this the hard way 
 now, too.

 Yes, I agree with you.  One of the reasons I am no longer in the United
 States, although it isn't the main reason.  I live in a country that
 still maintains some bit of freedom, although that is eroding thanks to
 the EU.  I voted no to the EU Constitution, as did the majority of the
 
 I don't know much about the Netherlands' laws, but you are stating that
 there's substantially more freedom there than in the USA. Can you give
 examples? Whose gun control laws are stricter? Which country has
 stronger protections for freedom of speech? As I said, I don't know
 much about the Netherlands' legal climate, but I'm surprised to hear
 that it's a much freer country. I have heard that they're more tolerant
 WRT moral issues, such as euthanasia, drugs and prostitution. Is that
 what you mean? What about economic freedom? One way or another, I'm
 genuinely curious to see a comparison of the two countries' respective
 freedoms.
 

Guns.  Very hard to get here.  Only the police (and major criminals)
have them.  Economics?  About the same I would say.  Legal climate,
about the same, although, there is a major difference in these areas:

Suspects are not tried by a jury of their peers.  They are tried by a
panel of judges that are very well versed in the law.  People are not
sentenced to death, although IMO, some should be.  Penalties for
committing crime are much lighter here, and the jails (from what I have
heard) are much better.  To be honest I don't have a lot of experience
with jail in either country.

As for freedom, the Dutch idea is basically, do whatever you want, as
long as you don't hurt anyone else.  Yes, you do need to wear seat belts
in cars and helmets on motorcycles.  Why?  Because the authorities are
the ones who clean up the mess.  So the law is there to protect you, but
it also protects them from having to deal with the horrors of mangled
people.

Joe

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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Joe wrote:
 Joe Hart wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1


 Alas, The United States of Europe is on its way.  I just hope I am dead
 before it is formed.

 
 Please don't...
 
 The Union of European Socialist Republics is much nearer the mark. Did
 you read the original Constitution?
 
 
Yes, I did.  That's why I voted no.  Actually that Constitution was much
more about trading than anything else.  I have a feeling it is going to
get passed even though a large number of people are against it.  Will,
when it passes, cause the Netherlands to fall more in line with European
thinking?  I am afraid so.

So you're saying we're going to be the UESSR and not the USE?  Oh no,
people will start calling us the commies.  ;)

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Raquel wrote:
 On Wed, 9 May 2007 16:26:31 -0400 (EDT)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  It helps to know something of the context when reading the
 bible.  The people who Abraham lived among (Canaanites, IIRC?),
 practiced sacrificed the first fruits to whatever gods they
 worshipped.  It was not uncommon to include the first born 
 son in this.  One of the remarkable parts of the story of Abraham,
 to a contemporary audience is the fact that the God of Israel does
 not actually call for his people to sacrifice their children.
 
 And Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac.  When Abraham showed up, in
 compliance to the wishes of the God of Israel, God provided a lamb
 in his place.
 

I am playing the Devil's advocate here.  So I might as well fulfill my
role.  So, you're saying God was merciful on Isaac because a lamb was
sacrificed instead.  Fine.  So God demanded cruelty to an animal, which
is also against our modern laws.

Either way one looks at it, the Bible is condoning behavior that is no
longer accepted as being morally just.  Or perhaps it is just telling us
what happened, so we can learn from the past.  I can't say that seems
very evident looking at many of the things that happen today.

I really just wish that Christians would adhere to the lessons that they
so firmly believe in.  But alas, we have a whole lot of people that seem
to do well on Sunday and forget about the rest of the week.

Is it a turn the other cheek world we live in or is the eye for an eye
world?

Joe

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Re: OT: Can't we just drop all the OT stuff...

[Joe Hart]

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Roberto � wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 10:23:21AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:
 On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 07:20:54PM -0400, steve reilly wrote:

 im sure most people who subscribe to this list use more than one os, 
 suse and debian here.  I subscribe to no less than 10 mailing lists as 
 well. Cant we just delete one of the lower traffic lists and start a 
 debian OT list?  this may seem like an overly simple solution, but why 
 hasnt it been done?  

 OT really needs to be on a separate list to keep all happy.
 The Debian Project won't host one so we need to find a different place 
 for it. Google Groups? [ducks]

 No.  A debianhelp.org forum would be much better :-)
 
 Regards,
 
 -Roberto
 
No.  Forums are a pita.  Give me a mailing list where I don't have to
click all the time, and wait for a server that is overloaded because
more than 10 people are making requests to the db at the same time.
Well, that of course is dependent on the server.

Joe

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Re: OT: Can't we just drop all the OT stuff...

[Joe Hart]

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Hash: SHA1

Eric d'Alibut wrote:
 On 5/9/07, Greg Folkert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Come on, we all come here for TOPICAL discussions and bare metal
 Debian stuff.
 
 I mean, I might just have to unsubscribe and find another venue to find
 my fix for Debian only topics.
 
 You're completely right Greg, except for the unsubscribe part.
 Occasionally the children need to be told to behave. It's a thankless
 task. And no good deed goes unpunished, of course.
 
 Note too that people who think it's cool to put their Registerd Linux
 User number in their sig can be dismissed as non-serious persons. What
 can be going through their minds? That no one else has a number as low
 as theirs? Just shoot me now!
 
 

Well, I could put a useless joke in there, or a plug for my website, or
maybe even some advice.  I suppose it really doesn't matter what one
puts as their signature.  Do we really want the name and address of the
company one works for all the time?

I knew this thread would turn into a flame.  It always seems to.

I will make you happy though.  No more signatures with my (ridiculously
high) number.  However, I would like to mention that the high number
should lead people to believe that I have only been using GNU/Linux for
a few months.

What gets me is that Greg started this thread off as a joke, and most
people seem to be ignoring that.

Joe
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Re: strange ? characters all over the screen in aptitude, mc and other ncurses programs

[Joe Hart]

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Deboo ^ wrote:
 Using Debian Etch stable version without X. Everything works fine
 since installed a few days ago except that  in aptitude or midnight
 commander or even dpkg-reconfigure screens, I get lots of question
 marks displayed with reverse video. What do I need so ncurses displays
 these correctly?
 
 I guess this has to do somethign with either whiptail or readline?
 
 Regards,
 Deboo
 

Usually this is a case of a character that is not defined in your
current language settings (locale).  You can usually fix this by chosing
a UTF8 locale.  dpkg-reconfigure locales should be able to fix your problem.

Joe

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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Roberto � wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 09:38:27AM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 I don't think envy plays much of a part.  Perhaps it used to, but thing
 like Katrina opened up the world's eyes to see how many real Americans
 live and not just the ones that the media lets them see.  One of the
 things that was shocking to most foreigners I believe was not so much
 what happened during the crisis, but that they saw that a large number
 of people live in poverty.

 It is shocking that in a large country that apparently breeds dependence
 on the government that people live in poverty?  Boy, those people must
 be quite deluded.
 

Yes, that I agree with, that's why I used to be a Republican.  I can use
a phrase that you are quite certain to agree with:  God help those who
help themselves.  It seems that many of the poor are firm believers that
the government is designed to help them.  It wasn't like this in the
United States until the socialistic programs were introduced in the
1930s.  On the other hand, there were some serious abuses of labor going
on at the time, and something needed to be done to give workers some rights.

 I used to be Republican, until I saw some of the things that they passed
  post 9/11.  Many of those laws are quite fascist, and they strip many
 
 And many of those laws have *equal* amounts of Democrat support.  What's
 your point?  Plenty of people *think* those laws are good for them.  It
 is the product of government control of the schools.  People
 automatically think that the government should do everything for them.

See above.
 
 of the freedoms that are given in the Constitution.  Perhaps when a good
 court gets appointed, the laws will be deemed unconstitutional.  Only
 
 I think that Rudy Guliani is the best hope this country has for
 appointing anything resembling good supreme court justices.
 
 time will tell.  In the meantime it is becoming McCarthyism all over
 again, on a worse scale.  Accuse your neighbor of being a terrorist and
 watch what happens to him.

 Yep.  Quite sad.

We agree on a lot of issues.

Joe
 Regards,
 
 -Roberto

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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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steef wrote:

 
 I really just wish that Christians would adhere to the lessons that they
 so firmly believe in.  But alas, we have a whole lot of people that seem
 to do well on Sunday and forget about the rest of the week.
 
 Is it a turn the other cheek world we live in or is the eye for an eye
 world?
 
 Joe

 nice talking, joe. i have a question: what do you think of the thesis:

 'where belief begins reason ends' ??

I assume you're referring to the above.

As for the thesis, it is intriguing, but I would think that a devout
person would pick it to pieces.

Joe
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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Ron Johnson wrote:
[snip]
 I am playing the Devil's advocate here.  So I might as well fulfill my
 role.  So, you're saying God was merciful on Isaac because a lamb was
 sacrificed instead.  Fine.  So God demanded cruelty to an animal, which
 is also against our modern laws.
 
 Cruelty?  Where does that come from?
 
 Or are you a vegan?

No, but I don't think it is right to kill an animal for any purpose than
to eat it, or perhaps to end it's suffering.  But, that's where we can
come in and say:  Ah, but to kill it does relieve its suffering because
by definition living is suffering if one does not have the intelligence
of a human being.  Actually that brings us also to the point of
euthanasia and it not being legal in your free country.

 
 Either way one looks at it, the Bible is condoning behavior that is no
 longer accepted as being morally just.  Or perhaps it is just telling us
 what happened, so we can learn from the past.  I can't say that seems
 very evident looking at many of the things that happen today.
 
 Shedding the blood of animals to *cover* human sin was what YHWH
 demanded.
 

I just don't get how killing something else can atone for your sins.
penitence must occur to oneself, not to another being.

 Jesus' death and the shedding of His blood permanently *washed* away
 all human sin.
 
 Note the different words I used: *cover*, which is temporary and why
 Jews had to make yearly sacrifices, and *washed* which is permanent.
  The Law is now fulfilled, and now all that is left is for man to
 believe.
 
 That, at least, is the way I was taught it by the Assemblies of God.
 
 I really just wish that Christians would adhere to the lessons that they
 so firmly believe in.  But alas, we have a whole lot of people that seem
 to do well on Sunday and forget about the rest of the week.
 
 Is it a turn the other cheek world we live in or is the eye for an eye
 world?

So which world do you think we live in?

Joe
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Re: OT: Can't we just drop all the OT stuff...

[Joe Hart]

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Roberto � wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 11:02:08AM +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
 Roberto � wrote:
 No.  A debianhelp.org forum would be much better :-)

 Regards,

 -Roberto

 No.  Forums are a pita.  Give me a mailing list where I don't have to
 click all the time, and wait for a server that is overloaded because
 more than 10 people are making requests to the db at the same time.
 Well, that of course is dependent on the server.
 
.  --- Roberto's sarcastic comment
 
o
   -|- --- Joe
   / \
 
 Sorry.  I think you missed it :-)
 
 Regards,
 
 -Roberto

Yep.  I guess I'm just one of those people that need the tags ;)

Joe
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Re: help!

[Joe Hart]

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David wrote:
 Hey everyone,
 
 I just downloaded and installed debian 4.0 stable on my laptop a
 couple of days ago, i've been playing around with it and its great!.
 although i have been having a bit of difficulty finding a good guide
 that explains just the basics of debian. Can anyone suggest a good
 guide? i have never used any version of linux os before, i have been
 using windows for a long time though. In particular i want to know how
 to install and remove programs, and whats the difference between the
 kernal and the terminal?! :S haha
 
 Newbie
 
 

Well, since some people on this list seem not to take me seriously, you
might not want to either ;)

You should probably start by reading some of the documentation that is
available on the Debian web site:

http://www.debian.org/doc/

Welcome to Debian.

Joe

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Re: [OT] Good, evil and religion [WAS] Re: A way to compile 3rd party modules into deb system?

[Joe Hart]

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Ron Johnson wrote:
 
 Suicide should be legal, but euthanasia is someone else killing
 you, and I see that as a great slippery slope towards total
 government control over life.
 

Well, it isn't.  Neither is euthanasia there, but the government does
find it perfectly moral to put criminals to death, and not to protect
unborn children.  I don't see very much consistency in the policies.

 Either way one looks at it, the Bible is condoning behavior that is no
 longer accepted as being morally just.  Or perhaps it is just telling us
 what happened, so we can learn from the past.  I can't say that seems
 very evident looking at many of the things that happen today.
 Shedding the blood of animals to *cover* human sin was what YHWH
 demanded.
 
 I just don't get how killing something else can atone for your sins.
 penitence must occur to oneself, not to another being.
 
 And I don't think there is sin, since I'm an atheist.
 
 Although I do believe that there is evil.  Is that contradictory?
 
I would think that it is, yes, a bit contradictory.  But, you live in a
free country that lets you believe what you want.  So do I.

 Jesus' death and the shedding of His blood permanently *washed* away
 all human sin.
 Note the different words I used: *cover*, which is temporary and why
 Jews had to make yearly sacrifices, and *washed* which is permanent.
  The Law is now fulfilled, and now all that is left is for man to
 believe.
 That, at least, is the way I was taught it by the Assemblies of God.
 I really just wish that Christians would adhere to the lessons that they
 so firmly believe in.  But alas, we have a whole lot of people that seem
 to do well on Sunday and forget about the rest of the week.
 Is it a turn the other cheek world we live in or is the eye for an eye
 world?
 So which world do you think we live in?
 
 In a hypocritical world.
 
 And I believe that a little hypocrisy is a good thing, and needed
 for the smooth functioning of society.
 

Yes, it is a hypocritical world, and it seems that many in power are
hypocrites.  The idea being:  company president says to Preiest, You
keep them stupid and I will keep them poor

Joe

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Business card iso

[Joe Hart]

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I downloaded the business card .iso for i386 from

http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/

and the 31MB file downloads fine, however, when I try to open the file
with k3b to burn it to a CD (because this machine won't boot off of USB)
k3b says it is unable to open the file.

I have tried twice (meaning I downloaded the file twice, and have
verified md5 checksums)

Am I really forced to install Etch or Lenny and upgrade it to Sid?  I
thought the business card solution would be much faster.  Apparently not.

Has anyone else noticed that there is a problem with
debian-testing-i386-businesscard.iso?

I thought it might be a problem with k3b (1.0.1) so I used wodim
directly and get:

wodim: Input/output error. read error on input file

Which leads me to believe there is something wrong with the image.

Joe
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Re: Business card iso

[Joe Hart]

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Atis wrote:
 On 5/10/07, Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have tried twice (meaning I downloaded the file twice, and have
 verified md5 checksums)
 
 Can you mount it trough loopback device?
 It was something like this (might be broken):
 
 # losetup ~/my.iso
 # mount /dev/loopback/0 /mnt/cdrom
 
 Regards,
 atis

somehow I think it is broken.  I get this:
# losetup debian-testing-i386-businesscard.iso
debian-testing-i386-businesscard.iso: []:0 () offset -1078627692,
none encryption
loop: can't get info on device debian-testing-i386-businesscard.iso:
Inappropriate ioctl for device

I guess I will just get the Lenny netinstall and then upgrade it to Sid.
 Seems like that will be faster than trying to debug this issue.

Joe
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Re: Business card iso

[Joe Hart]

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Atis wrote:
 On 5/10/07, Karl E. Jorgensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 02:26:16PM +0300, Atis wrote:
  On 5/10/07, Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I have tried twice (meaning I downloaded the file twice, and have
  verified md5 checksums)
 
  Can you mount it trough loopback device?
  It was something like this (might be broken):
 
  # losetup ~/my.iso
  # mount /dev/loopback/0 /mnt/cdrom

 A bit long-winded isn't it? I usually use:
 # mount -oloop -tiso9660 /path/to/file.iso /mnt
 
 Right, this is more simple, just didn't knew that. Also, i was a bit
 wrong (bad memory). Correct would be:
 
 #losetup /dev/loop/0 a.iso
 #mount -t iso9660 /dev/loop/0 /cdrom
 
I still think there is something wrong with the image.

I went ahead and downloaded the net install for Lenny, and have since
upgraded it to Sid.  It works just fine, and the only differences so far
that I noticed is that Sid uses the 2.6.18-k7 (so does Lenny) on this
system by default, and there doesn't seem to be any later kernel
available in the Sid repo.

My Sidux install OTOH, uses 2.6.21.1

It doesn't really make a lot of difference unless of course one has
hardware that isn't recognized by the 2.6.18 kernel.  But even Ubuntu is
using a 2.6.20, so I wonder.

In any event, my Sid partition is working just fine, and is fully up to
date.  It does boot nice and fast!

Thanks,

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
 Celejar wrote:
 On Wed, 09 May 2007 16:14:44 -0400
 Amy Templeton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Celejar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Johannes Wiedersich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The whole mission is a textbook example of how it probably is
 impossible to bring about democracy, peace and freedom by
 application of force.
 Impossible? Where were Germany and Japan before and after WWII?
 Before: A lot more populous.
 After: In ruins.

 Seriously, though...are you advocating dropping nuclear bombs on
 people in order to force them to be free? 'Cause if I recall
 that's how we got Japan to lay down arms...
 First, I was simply providing a counter example to Johannes'
 aforementioned assertion, but not necessarily advocating anything.
 Second, what about Germany? Third, WRT Japan I suppose we had three
 choices: a) the Bomb b) continued conventional war c) negotiated
 peace / truce / ceasefire. It's easy to argue for a over b
 (minimization of the total loss of life, including total loss of enemy
 life), although I know that one can argue the contrary also. WRT option
 c, do you think that was a historically realistic possibility? [It's
 not a rhetorical question; my knowledge of the period isn't that
 strong.]
 
 You forget about the second bomb. It was dropped before the Japanese
 government had a chance to figure out what had happened in Hiroshima and
 before they had a chance to surrender in face of the first bomb.
 
 (The second bomb was dropped 3 days after the first. In the confusion
 and destruction caused by the first bombing it took days for the
 Japanese government to figure out what had happened in Hiroshima. No
 internet, no telephone, etc.)
 
 No matter what justification one might have for dropping the first bomb,
 I guess at least the second bomb was both military and morally 'useless'.
 
 Johannes
 
 Further reading:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

My understanding of the period leads me to believe that the second bomb
was dropped as to prove to the Japanese that the first bomb was not a
fluke and the same type of bomb could be repeatedly dropped until they
surrendered.  While I agree that it came a bit too soon after the first
bomb, and some diplomatic efforts should have been attempted after the
first, lines of communication were poor then, and how many more Allied
lives would have been lost if the fighting continued?

The number of American lives were the only things that the US considered
worthwhile at the time.

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Celejar wrote:
 On Thu, 10 May 2007 09:46:23 +0200
 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Celejar wrote:
 [snip]
 Why is the RIAA still able to get away with their fear tactics? 
 Because they know who to bribe. Centralized power creates a target 
 of opportunity for corruption. Europe is learning this the hard way 
 now, too.

 Yes, I agree with you.  One of the reasons I am no longer in the United
 States, although it isn't the main reason.  I live in a country that
 still maintains some bit of freedom, although that is eroding thanks to
 the EU.  I voted no to the EU Constitution, as did the majority of the
 I don't know much about the Netherlands' laws, but you are stating that
 there's substantially more freedom there than in the USA. Can you give
 examples? Whose gun control laws are stricter? Which country has
 stronger protections for freedom of speech? As I said, I don't know
 much about the Netherlands' legal climate, but I'm surprised to hear
 that it's a much freer country. I have heard that they're more tolerant
 WRT moral issues, such as euthanasia, drugs and prostitution. Is that
 what you mean? What about economic freedom? One way or another, I'm
 genuinely curious to see a comparison of the two countries' respective
 freedoms.

 Guns.  Very hard to get here.  Only the police (and major criminals)
 have them.  Economics?  About the same I would say.  Legal climate,
 about the same, although, there is a major difference in these areas:

 Suspects are not tried by a jury of their peers.  They are tried by a
 panel of judges that are very well versed in the law.  People are not
 sentenced to death, although IMO, some should be.  Penalties for
 committing crime are much lighter here, and the jails (from what I have
 heard) are much better.  To be honest I don't have a lot of experience
 with jail in either country.

 As for freedom, the Dutch idea is basically, do whatever you want, as
 long as you don't hurt anyone else.  Yes, you do need to wear seat belts
 in cars and helmets on motorcycles.  Why?  Because the authorities are
 the ones who clean up the mess.  So the law is there to protect you, but
 it also protects them from having to deal with the horrors of mangled
 people.

 Joe
 
 So where's the greater additional freedom in the Netherlands? Are you
 referring to its greater tolerance of what we Puritans would
 call vice or sin (euthanasia, drugs, prostitution, pornography), or do
 you mean its rejection of what you're pleased to call our McCarthyism?

See my other post.

As to the McCarthyism, I am referring to the sweep of terrorist laws
that strip away the rights of the individual in view of the greater
good.  If someone calls you a terrorist, you have little recourse when
the police search your house and comb through all your records to try to
substantiate the claim.  The problem is, the probable cause is not being
used in those cases.  Just by being branded a terrorist is enough to
cause major grief, no matter how true the statement is.

This is exactly the same as McCarthy and his branding people communist
who clearly had no affiliation with them in retrospect.  It didn't stop
those people from having ruined careers.

The problem is also here in Europe.  The thought police are quite
active.  Because by catching the potential terrorists, the government
can save lives.  Therefore, monitoring and even censoring are effective
tools against terrorism.  The problem is the practice of constant
monitoring erodes privacy.

Joe
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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Celejar wrote:
[snip]
 Can I tell offending *truths* or expres offending opinions about
 others? Can I say I hate Jews / Arabs / Asians / blacks / homosexuals
 and I think that they should be stripped of their civil rights and
 incarcerated? Again, even if one believes that it's right to prohibit
 such things (and I don't concede the point) it's incorrect to call that
 freedom.
 
I have that right too.

 How is selling Nazi memorabilia and expressing fondness for them
 telling lies about them? Fallaci had trouble for writing thing like
 the sons of Allah breed like rats. Was she accused of falsehood, or
 of mere offensiveness?
 

And, we Dutch can complain all we want about the Nazi's and trade in the
memorabilia, although there isn't a lot of demand for it.

 Also, no Western-German or unified German government after WWII has ever
 carried people to offshore islands, denying any rights for legal counsel
 or legal defence. As said above, government, police, military have less
 powers in Germany to take freedom away from people.

 As I said, I don't know
 much about the Netherlands' legal climate, but I'm surprised to hear
 that it's a much freer country. I have heard that they're more tolerant
 WRT moral issues, such as euthanasia, drugs and prostitution. Is that
 what you mean? What about economic freedom? One way or another, I'm
 genuinely curious to see a comparison of the two countries' respective
 freedoms.
 What do you mean by economic freedom? If you are talking about the
 ability of companies to sack people in order to save their salary, then
 the US is indeed more liberal.
 
 Yes, the ability to hire and fire at will is called freedom of
 contract. Why should the government tell consenting adults what sorts
 of economic arrangements they can make among themselves :). And once
 again, even if you believe that government should regulate such things
 (and I do agree with some regulation of economic activity), it's still
 a curtailment of freedom.

I agree.  We have that right.

 
 If you are talking about the freedom to copy a CD you bought to a
 cassette in order to play it on your 10 year old car's stereo that won't
 play CDs, than Germany has more freedom. Many of the EULA clauses
 limiting your rights are void in Germany. (Of course that implies that
 companies have less freedom to hassle their customers).

 If you are talking about the possibility of using 'one-click' buttons on
 your web site without fear of patent infringement, then Europe has more
 freedom.
 
 You have completely failed to show that Germany is freer than the US.
 You have shown that some things are freer there, but many are freer
 here. You just insist on denying that any of our freedoms are really
 freedoms. 

I say Germany is less free than The Netherlands.  I can do things like
post on the internet how one can download libdvdcss2 so they can play
CDs.  If I lived in Germany I would be breaking the law by doing that,
because in Germany that is considered assisting people in breaking the
law, and that is against the law.

You, being in the US are not allowed to install it.  So much for freedom
with your media.

Joe

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Re: [OT] The record industry, RIAA and US law

[Joe Hart]

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Joe wrote:
 Joe Hart wrote:

 So you're saying we're going to be the UESSR and not the USE?  Oh no,
 people will start calling us the commies.  ;)

 
 No, I didn't mean to say that's what it will be called, just that the
 EU has very much more in common with the USSR than with the USA, and
 that it could be seen as quite offensive to use the term 'United States'
 in relation to Europe. The EU Constitution is about as far away from the
 US Constitution as it is possible to get.
 
 There's been a few murmurs from some old USSR satellite countries now
 in the EU that they thought they'd got away from that kind of thing...
 
 
Well, the EU constitution has not been ratified, and I agree with you
that it is a bad thing.  That's why I (and the majority of the Dutch and
French people) voted against it.  Some European countries have not had a
referendum specifically because they are afraid their populous will vote
against it.

However, going so far as to say that it is closer to the USSR than to
the USA is going quite overboard.  As for freedoms, can you go anywhere
in the world you want to?  Oh, that's right.  You cannot enjoy legally a
Cuban cigar, nor can you legally visit the pristine beaches in that country.

Really, I have seen both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, I lived 30 years
in the USA, and I know the laws, and I thought I was free when I was
there.  It is just in the last few years I have come to realize that the
American propaganda machine was in full swing.  It still is.  Tell me,
why is the World News dominated by American news when it comes on the
television?  Why is CNN International different in the US than it is in
Europe?

Joe

Joe
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