from:"Steve Litt"

Re: Google Chrome can share but Chromium cannot share screen

2022-09-11 Thread Steve Litt

On Sun, 2022-09-11 at 10:26 +0200, Corentin Bardet wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Le 2022-09-11 07:39, Pankaj Jangid a écrit :
> > For a few work related meetings, I have to use Google Meet. But the
> > screensharing doesn't work in the Chromium installed from stable APT
> > repository. Clicking on the share-screen icon and then selecting any of
> > the three options - Tab, Windows, Entire Screen - shows this error
> > message,
> > 
> > "Your browser can't share your screen"
> > 
> > But if I install and use Google Chrome, then the screen sharing works 
> > in
> > Google Meet.
> 
> That doesn't surprise me much.
> 
> Google removed the majority of its APIs from Chromium : 
> [here](
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)#Differences_from_Google_Chrom
> e) 
> and 
> [here](https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2021/01/chromium-sync-google-api-removed)
> 
> Maybe screen sharing was a Google thing. Especially screen sharing to 
> Google Meet.
> 
> I think you have no other option than using Google Chrome for your 
> meetings.

O r   u s e   J i t s i ! 

SteveT

Re: Avoiding SystemD isn't hard

2014-10-22 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 19:09:39 -0400
Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote:

 Brian wrote:
  On Tue 21 Oct 2014 at 15:01:18 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
 
  On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 17:19:08 +0200
  Liam Proven lpro...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  A blog post explaining why it isn't mandatory, the utter futility
  of the fork and more besides, clearly and simply.
 
  http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/2014102101-avoiding-systemd.html
  What I really like about the blog is that, almost from the
  beginning, the author lets us know his agenda with words like
  trolls. And, just to make his point with his non-cognizant
  readers, he quotes Gregory Smith as just another
  anti-systemd-troll, instead of as a guy all of the anti-systemd
  people have repudiated and disavowed all alliance with.
  Have all the anti-systemd people repudiated Gregory? Here is one who
  embraces him as part of the fold:
 
 https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/10/msg00287.html
 
  Gregory, please don't do this. It hurts the credibility of the
  entire group who agrees with you 100% on the issues. There are
  enough *facts* about systemd, Poettering, Sievers and Redhat to
  logically and completely make your point.
 
  The group agrees with you 100% . Does that look like
  repudiation and disavowed all alliance with?
 
  It seems more like trying to get someone to toe the Party line.
 
 
 
 Just for the record, just because someone is a little over-the-top in 
 his language, doesn't make him wrong.
 
 Miles Fidelman

I guess that's what I get for /dev/null'ing Brian long before the
systemd thing ever started (my .procmailrc notes say Rude boy Brian
who thinks he's funny). Anyway, as Brian knows full well if he
researched my ancient advice to Gregory, about two days later I
publically repudiated Gregory.

SteveT

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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

2014-10-22 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 18:41:21 -0700
Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
 
  On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:45:11 -0700
  Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to
   systemd, I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  
  
  * Nosh
  * Runit
  * Upstart
  * S6
  * Probably more I don't know about.
 
 OpenRC, God, and another one -- I can't recall the name -- come to
 mind.  Been studying them all.  Runit as a partial or full drop-in
 replacement for sysvinit seems promising.
 
   And it can't be sysvinit.
   
   Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's
   been patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged
  
  Nobody's arguing for sysvinit as a long term solution, for the exact
  reasons you post above. Those of us who appeared to favor sysvinit
  were saying let's wait until we have something good. We also
  pointed out the false choice of prematurely narrowing it to systemd,
  Upstart or sysvinit.
 
 This I realize, but for some something good is never ever good
 enough to replace the old, the familiar, the comfortable.

I spoze. But there's little good about systemd, and a whole lot of bad.
Like I listed near the beginning of this thread, there are plenty of
something goods that I'd gladly replace sysvinit with. But systemd is
a catastrophe if you want a computer controlled by you and not
Red Hat.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:25:31 +0200
Ludovic Meyer ludo.v.me...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 04:49:48PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
  On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
  
  If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just
  to make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead,
  besides not achieving anything.
  
  ~OR!~
  
  List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes. is a more likely
  reason for the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the
  higher than normal activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give
  a whit, one way or the other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby
  seals here. Maybe there is a GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would
  be more likely. chuckles :) Ric
 
 You must have missed the memo :
 http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/2014101801-beware-of-trolls---do-not-feed.html
  

The subject of the preceding article link hasn't posted in several
days. I know that because, no matter what name he uses, his posts are
immediately recognizeable.

So what's the purpose of your putting this link in your email?

SteveT

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Re: LSB headers and other junk, how do you hack a quick init script in debian these days?

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:41:19 +0200
Michael Ole Olsen g...@gmx.net wrote:

 Who needs to document their own pc they hack on daily?
 
 suddenly I couldnt just place a script in rc2.d folder anymore,
 needed to symlink needed to add an lsb header too it seems
 
 maybe I'm overlooking something
 
 I prefer to hack on my own without using debian tools, update-rc.d
 i.e.
 
 would be nice to be able to place a script in rc2.d folder again,
 even though it isn't a symlink
 
 it seems that 'feature' has been removed in the new debians
 
 I wouldn't do it at work/anywhere where documentation is important
 though but why force people to document / use the right tools?
 
 I prefer an OS that is easy to hack around
 
 debian init scripts is something that frustrates me often, because I
 can't just hack them easily need to symlink in different folders or
 use the debian tool got no experience with sysV or whatever it uses,
 only bash programming which I am fairly good with
 
 so it frustrates me that hacking initscripts should be so annoying at
 times :P
 
 it used to work good back in the days, I could just add an S99mio and
 that would get executed after booting not anymore, now it needs to be
 symlinked and all it seems
 
 there used to be an /etc file one could edit to make boot scripts
 anyone remember which one?
 
 rc.local or such I think, but not sure anymore, debian has changed a
 bit lately it seems
 
 How do you hack a quick init script these days?:)

If it's something that can be done at the end of the boot, I'd recommend
daemontools. Unlike both systemd and sysvinit, your daemons are under
perfect control, and controlling them is zombie-simple.

If you want, I can even tell you how to control which order daemontools
starts its stuff up in, although that would be a kludge and it would
start looking a little like sysvinit scripts.

SteveT

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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:12:17 +0200
Ludovic Meyer ludo.v.me...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 09:34:48PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:45:11 -0700
  Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to
   systemd, I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  
  
  * Nosh
 
 So this one is fun, it is just a direct copy of the systemd service
 format. Guess the proof that's at least a feature that people do
 want, dropping shell.

I think you meant a direct copy of daemontools, didn't you?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwares/nosh.html

It's not a direct copy, it's an enhanced superset of daemontools, kind
of. Daemontools preceded systemd by several years, and I sincerely doubt
daemontools and systemd have anything in common.

 
 And of course, not only the format is copied, it took the set of
 systemd services and copied them like this. I am sure ftp-masters
 wouldn't accept a GPL violation ( as the .service file are likely not
 un the BSD ).

Daemontools wasn't GPL'ed, it was Public Domained, so anyone can do
absolutely anything with it.

 
  * Runit
 
 was non free for a long time, not sure if developped
 anymore, especially since last post on one of the ml date back to 
 June 2013. 

Funtoo is using it, and I seriously doubt they'd be using something not
developed anymore.

 
  * Upstart
 
 no longer developped, and suffer from several bugs, go read the
 tech-ctte debate.

I read it, and if Upstart problems were the most distressing thing in
that debate, I'd be a happy man. If Upstart is no longer under
development, the reason would be that the Debian CTTE decided on
systemd, so Cannonical reluctantly followed suit.

 
  * S6
 
 likely the same as runit when it come to be alive.
 
  * Probably more I don't know about.
 
 You could add openrc, the only serious contender.

Thanks. I hereby add openrc, assuming it's ready now.

 
 
   And it can't be sysvinit.
   
   Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's
   been patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged
  
  Nobody's arguing for sysvinit as a long term solution, for the exact
  reasons you post above. Those of us who appeared to favor sysvinit
  were saying let's wait until we have something good. We also
  pointed out the false choice of prematurely narrowing it to
  systemd, Upstart or sysvinit.
 
 You mean let's do like we did since 20 years, wait, in case if
 something will happen. None of the alternatives you propose have
 been widely adopted by anyone except upstart. And that's mostly
 because no one cared about them up to the point to even propose them. 

The reason nobody paid attention to them yet is the alternative wasn't
systemd until now. systemd is a mighty motivator, I'll say that for it.

  Now of course, the systemd cabal will argue that we can't wait any
  longer. My question to them is, why was sysvinit not a dire
  emergency until Red Hat's systemd juggernaut came along, and then
  all of a sudden we just couldn't wait?
 
 You mean that after waiting several years, the solution is to wait
 again, because no one cared before, 

That is *exactly* what I mean. Don't move to a worse position, and if
this had really been life or death, systemd would have been gone a few
years ago.

 and when 1 group came and
 changed, the solution is to refuse and go back doing nothing ?

Now that, I didn't say. Go back and read the quoted text.

SteveT

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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:11:32 +0100
Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Please do not top-post. 
 
 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 05:27:34AM -0200, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
  If uselessd provides ONLY a new init, based on CGroups and lots of
  cool ideas from systemd itself, then, it worth trying it! Just for
  fun...
 
 I think it's an interesting project and I might contribute towards the
 packaging, so long as it's a team effort, but currently nobody has
 taken ownership of the 'request for package' bug, so there is almost
 no chance of uselessd being a part of jessie. (it would have to be 
 packaged, uploaded and pass NEW in under 2 weeks.)

Hey Jonathan,

First, if you do contribute to uselessd, thank you very much.

I want to make sure I'm reading your paragraph correctly: The
Debian uselessd package cannot be finished in time to make it into
Jessie, so there will be no uselessd package in Jessie. Is that correct?

Let's say that, in six months from now, Debian's uselessd package is
ready for prime time. Would there be any reason some enterprising
person couldn't simply copy it to another repository (hopefully a
trusted one), so that people could add that repository and thus install
uselessd on Jessie?

Thanks,

SteveT

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Re: Refracta systemd-free progress

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:16:50 +0100
Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 07:39:06PM -0500, goli...@riseup.net wrote:
  Check out the outstanding progress that fsmithred and dzz are making
  with a systemd-free Refracta:
 
 This is off-topic for the Debian User mailing list. Please stick to
 on-topic discussions.
 
 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

This is true, golinux. It violates the very first element of the rules,
because it doesn't foster development and use of Debian. So, if I were
you, I'd rephrase it thusly...

===
Check out the outstanding progress that fsmithred and dzz are making
with a systemd-free Refracta. I think that similar construction can
greatly benefit Debian:
===

SteveT

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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:18:49 +0200
Raffaele Morelli raffaele.more...@gmail.com wrote:

 Here are some interesting things one should be aware of before 
 http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html

We've all read that. My favorite Poettering manifesto is the one where
he talks of systemd subsuming packaging systems:

http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html

 
 Read enough about but still haven't read something really valuable
 against systemd from eg. Torvalds, Eric Steven Raymond, etc... (if
 you do, post the link)

Isn't this quote from ESR enough against systemd?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Reception

very prone to mission creep and bloat and likely to turn into a nasty
hairball over the longer term.

As far as Torvalds, would this qualify as something really valuable
against systemd?

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTY1MzA

Key, I'm f*cking tired of the fact that you don't fix problems in the
code *you* write, so that the kernel then has to work around the
problems you cause.

 
 I believe the main issue with systemd and the community mainly the
 badass-ness 

Badass is a complement. Poettering is just an ass. But if I used
ass-ness as a filter on software I use, I wouldn't use anything RMS
created, because he can be an ass, and I wouldn't use anything from the
Linux kernel, because Linus can be an ass. Ass-authored software is
used every day, by all of us. The thing is, asses like Linus and RMS
don't have a roadmap to the destruction of the software ecosystem that
created them (any more).

 of the guys in this init system war or whatever you
 prefer to address at.
 
 Using systemd since 2014-08-09 with no issues.

Good for you. Let's see if you have no issues 2016-08-09, if Red Hat
wins its war against Linux.

SteveT

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Re: Avoiding SystemD isn't hard

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 17:19:08 +0200
Liam Proven lpro...@gmail.com wrote:

 A blog post explaining why it isn't mandatory, the utter futility of
 the fork and more besides, clearly and simply.
 
 http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/2014102101-avoiding-systemd.html

What I really like about the blog is that, almost from the beginning,
the author lets us know his agenda with words like trolls. And, just
to make his point with his non-cognizant readers, he quotes Gregory
Smith as just another anti-systemd-troll, instead of as a guy all of
the anti-systemd people have repudiated and disavowed all alliance with.

But putting the author's agenda aside for a moment, he pins his
Avoiding systemd isn't difficult mantra on pinning. Umm, what happens
three years from now if Ian Jackson's GR votes against choice? Oops!

And once again, I thank Ian Jackson for doing the right thing, in spite
of the difficulties it created for him, personally.

SteveT

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What actual program does the kernel run at boot in the default Jessie?

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

Hi all,

In the past, I've been taught that the very last thing the kernel does
during boot is run whatever program is called /sbin/init. And
therefore, I can replace /sbin/init with the PID1 of my choice, always
assuming I can connect the myriad of dots.

In default new-installed Jessie, does the kernel still hand off to the
program called /sbin/init during boot, or does it do something else?

Thanks,

SteveT

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Re: Good news on claws-mail

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 00:58:27 +0200
lee l...@yagibdah.de wrote:

 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org writes:
 
  But my opinion is that, it's the accumulation of tools using
  different slow languages, which will kill the computer's resources
  (shell, python2, python3, php, perl, basic, whatever).
 
 Perl isn't exactly slow, considering what it does.
 
 In any case, pick the right tool for the job --- and I'm finding perl
 really amazing in some regards.

For an interpreter (you know what I mean), when I used Perl it was fast
as hell. You'd need to go to Lua or Luajit to get a faster
interpreter.

One of the first things I do when writing software is figure what the
bottleneck is. If the bottleneck is the user's molassas slow 140 word
per minute typing, I'll use an interpreter every time so I'm not the
guy doing allocation and garbage collection and bounds checking.

SteveT

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Re: msg from tornow....

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:14:00 +1100
Andrew McGlashan andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA256
 
 Hi,
 
 Thanks for the cc in this case, your message never made it to the
 list, it was /probably/ silently dropped  changing the subject
 line to see if it helps *this* message to get through ;-)
 
    for the list *benefit* ... said email follows...
 
 On 21/10/2014 8:06 AM, tor...@riseup.net wrote:
  Do I want systemd ? - definitely and absolutely NO.
  
  Is there any point arguing here in debian-user ? - definitely
  NOT.
  
  My view is that systemd is a forgone conclusion and no-one whom
  has decided that it should be will be convinced otherwise.
  
  I cannot agree that systemd is better over sysvinit and I don't
  expect that to ever change.  There is NOTHING wrong with
  sysvinit, there is something wrong with blaming sysvinit for
  other startup issues that had/have been done incorrectly.
  
  Same thoughts here. I made my choice and changed the distribution, 
  after running Debian for  6 years. If needed, Poettering's ideas 
  make it sound like that, i will even change the OS (obvious
  choice: BSD). I didn't make that choice lighthearted. Debian meant
  something to me.

So Andrew, what did you move to? If I were just running a server, I'd
have been using BSD years ago. But running a desktop, being able to run
the programs I want to run is a real issue. Where did you go, and are
you doing desktop/workstation, or server?

  Not arguing here, cause it won't bring a change, doesn't mean one 
  doesn't care and won't make the according choice. And calling
  people who are worried about systemd trolls (and/or haters),
  worried because they *do* care about Debian, sure won't convince
  them to stay.

LOL, they *want* us gone. They're feeling the juice right now, and
haven't yet considered the frequent consequences of my way or the
highway.

SteveT

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Re: What actual program does the kernel run at boot in the default Jessie?

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:11:46 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Ma, 21 oct 14, 15:17:58, Steve Litt wrote:
  
  In default new-installed Jessie, does the kernel still hand off to
  the program called /sbin/init during boot, or does it do something
  else?
 
 Yes it does, unless you override it on the command line with an init= 
 parameter.

Good. That makes for easy experimentation. Thanks!

SteveT

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Re: Avoiding SystemD isn't hard

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:17:56 +0200
tor...@riseup.net tor...@riseup.net wrote:


 If one doesn't want systemd/libsystemd0, then Debian is not a good
 choice (having to tinker all the time one can just as well run one of
 the KISS distros). 
 
 imho, of course. 

Debian *was* a KISS distro. That's why a lot
of us migrated to it. Wheezy *is* a KISS distro.

SteveT

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Does Debian still have a systemd-must-die metapackage?

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Litt

Does Debian still have a systemd-must-die metapackage, and does it
still work in Jessie?

SteveT

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Re: Good news on claws-mail

2014-10-20 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 03:37:56 +0200
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:


 And, finally, I consider myself as a DE user. My DE is built by
 myself around a terminal-emulator, a tiling window manager, 

Which one?

I use Openbox, which of course isn't tiling.

 and
 several applications, 

Such as?

My main apps are:

* Sigil
* Bluefish
* Iceweasel (I use xxxterm on Ubuntu)
* Vim
* VimOutliner
* LyX
* Gnumeric
* LibreOffice Impress
* The various programming languages
* UMENU
* dmenu

 but it's still a DE. A light one, an efficient
 one, a personal one, but it's my DE. :D

An afficienado would argue with you that it's a DE only if the apps can
all interact. Me, I'd prefer all my apps mind their own business, but
hey, that's just me.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-20 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote:
 
  Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles
  and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground
  antics?
 
 Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the
 -offtopic list.

Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told
protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus,
petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance.

Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves,
reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the
Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to:

A) Reach real people involved in the situation
B) Build a community

Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to
our intelligence. You know it, and we know it.

SteveT

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Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)

2014-10-20 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:34:43 -0200
Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote:

But please, guys, DO NOT LOSE *DEBIAN COMPILATION*!!

I mean, when I read that infamous guy, Poettering, talking about
things like this:

http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html

It creeps the hell outta me!

[snip]

So, is systemd even trying to replace dpkg+apt too? Come guys... For
real?!

[snip]

Honestly, I don't fear systemd itself, or binary logs... I fear
things like this:

Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTY1MzA

Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community
'awful':
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/

Thiago,

Sadly, you ask the exact right question. Do we want Debian (and Linux)
ruled by a megalomaniac who hates Linux, is determined to make it into
something un-Linux, and wants all distros to be the same (copies of his
employer's distro, no doubt).

Systemd's architecture, which I personally find unwise, is nevertheless
something that, from a technical standpoint, *could* be disentangled at
a later date if it turns out to be as problematic as I think it will be.

The real problem, which you put your finger square on, is that the
architecture is simply a tool of monopolization. And, in fact, the
megalomaniac is a proxy for his employer, Red Hat.

Anybody who reads Poetterings writings, listens to his interviews, and
doesn't come away with the idea that he wants to destroy what is
currently Linux, and make sure it can never regenerate itself, isn't
paying attention.

Red Hat already had OpenSuSE, Fedora, CentOS, Mand* and all its
descendants, and several others on its team already. Somehow, Arch and
Sabayon fell for it too. If they conquer Debian, then Ubuntu and all the
Debian and Ubuntu descendants fall, and Red Hat controls all of Linux.
From there it's a simple matter to weld more and more onto their
systemd (such as the packaging system), until regenerating the real
Linux is no longer practical. Once they have a monopoly, they'll show
much less regard for us than the CTTE ever did.

Right now, this minute, Debian has the last clear chance to avoid the
Poettering Vision, which is really the Red Hat strategy for Linux
monopolization, which means destruction of the operating system we
currently use.

At this point, the technical issues are a minor thing. The big news is
how humans are going to use those technical issues to replace our
wonderful, almost POSIX OS with a Windows wannabe.

SteveT

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Re: If Not Systemd, then What?

2014-10-20 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:45:11 -0700
Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote:

 After much vitriolic gnashing of teeth from those opposed to systemd,
 I wonder...  What is a better alternative?  

* Nosh
* Runit
* Upstart
* S6
* Probably more I don't know about.

 And it can't be sysvinit.
 
 Yes.  Syvinit still works, but it is after all 20 years old. It's been
 patched and bolted onto and jury-rigged

Nobody's arguing for sysvinit as a long term solution, for the exact
reasons you post above. Those of us who appeared to favor sysvinit were
saying let's wait until we have something good. We also pointed out
the false choice of prematurely narrowing it to systemd, Upstart or
sysvinit.

Now of course, the systemd cabal will argue that we can't wait any
longer. My question to them is, why was sysvinit not a dire emergency
until Red Hat's systemd juggernaut came along, and then all of a
sudden we just couldn't wait?

SteveT

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Re: Refracta systemd-free progress

2014-10-20 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 23:33:23 -0400
Gary Dale garyd...@torfree.net wrote:

 On 20/10/14 08:39 PM, goli...@riseup.net wrote:
  Check out the outstanding progress that fsmithred and dzz are
  making with a systemd-free Refracta:
 
  http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-with-the-systemd-flow-or-not-t422-50.html#p4085
   
 
 
  http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-with-the-systemd-flow-or-not-t422-60.html#p4086
   
 
 
  Kudos to them!! Looking forward to giving this a spin before too
  long.
 
 
 If it makes you happy. Freedom of choice is one benefit of Linux. 
 Personally, I like systemd and the fast boots it provides, plus the
 ease of administration.

Gary, 

*Thank you* for actually saying something positive about systemd,
rather than just telling us to shut up. I happen to believe that in
the long run the entanglement isn't worth the benefits you mention, but
that's just a difference of opinion between us, rather than the your
opinion doesn't count type of thing.

Jonathan de Boyne Pollard, what's your impression of the relative boot
time of nosh vs systemd?

Thanks,

SteveT

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Re: Good news on claws-mail

2014-10-19 Thread Steve Litt

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 12:47:03 +0200
Peter Nieman gmane-a...@t-online.de wrote:

 By the way, I am a desktop user, using fvwm. But I don't want all my 
 applications to look and feel the same, I don't want everything to 
 interact with everything, and I want to control my computer instead
 of being controlled by my computer.

Quoted For Truth!!!

Steve

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Re: Good news on claws-mail

2014-10-19 Thread Steve Litt

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 14:20:25 +0200
lee l...@yagibdah.de wrote:


 Since you're re-inventing the wheel:
 
 // sxnotify.c
 //
 // This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or
 // modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as
 // published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the
 // License, or (at your option) any later version.
 //
 // This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
 // WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
 // MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the GNU
 // General Public License for more details.
 //
 // You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
 // along with this program.  If not, see
 // http://www.gnu.org/licenses/.
 //
 // Author: l...@yun.yagibdah.de, 2013-07-21
 //
 // compile with something like:
 // gcc -lsx -lXpm -lXaw -lXt -lX11 -march=native -O2 -Wall
 -fomit-frame-pointer -finline-functions sxnotify.c -o sxnotify //
 
 
 #include stdio.h
 #include unistd.h
 #include stdlib.h
 
 #include libsx.h
 
 
 void xx(void *data)
 {
   exit(0);
 }
 
 
 int main(int argc, char *argv[]) {
 
   if(!OpenDisplay(argc, argv)) {
   puts(cannot open display);
   exit(1);
   }
 
   if(argc != 2) {
   puts(usage: sxnotify message);
   exit(1);
   }
 
   MakeLabel(argv[1]);
   ShowDisplay();
   int foo;
   AddTimeOut(5000, xx, (void *)(foo));
   MainLoop();
   exit(0);
 }
 
 
 
 # aptitude install libsx-dev

Very, very nice! 

Not an entanglement in sight.

This is the first I've heard about libsx, but I'll be learning a lot
more about it. So far I've found:

*
  http://www.ee.usyd.edu.au/tutorials/ee_database/programming/libsx/libsx.html

* http://www.nada.kth.se/~sungam/libsx/general.libsx.html
* /usr/share/doc/libsx-dev/examples

Unfortunately, a 5 minute Google search found no Python implementation
of libsx. I don't need C for forms: The speed bottleneck is the typist
anyway.

But then again, I could have somebody define a form in some sort of
data file, parse that and convert to a simple C program, call gcc to
make it into an executable. Rapid Application Development, Army Surplus
style, which of course makes me a pariah in the eyes of real
programmers. Life's tough.

Thanks so much for cluing me into this!

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-18 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 23:06:53 -0700
Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 10/17/2014 10:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:59:44 -0700
  Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On 10/17/2014 08:44 PM, Ric Moore wrote:
  On 10/17/2014 10:22 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
 
 
  What's the hurry, Squeeze is good until 2016, we have plenty of
  time to test other init-systems.
 
  You use KDE. Where you there when KDE3 became KDE4 and broke our
  hearts? What a flame fest that was. Yet, you use it now? Ah! Time
  must have finally smoothed the rough edges. Yet, KDE4 happened no
  matter what any of us had to say, and I was royally jerked about
  it. Gnome went through the very same cycle. So did Ubuntu with all
  of the lens (IMHO) junk. Every one of those projects were driven
  top-down. We users just got pulled along.
 
 
  Yes! I was at the KDE4 release at Google what fun..I also helped
  with Trinity, Linux is about diversity and Debian has always been
  the leader.
 
  Whoa guys, slow down on the generalizations. Don't assume everyone
  uses KDE4. Two years ago I kicked KDE, in its entirety, libraries
  and all, off all my computers. It's an entangled monolith and a
  danger to computing. The time might come when I need to do the same
  with Gnome. Don't assume that users just bend over and take this
  entangled junk.
 
 
 Debian KDE4 has been manageable, nothing but a bunch of meta-packages 
 remove what you don't need and then use 'aptitude keep-all' to keep
 the app's and then 'upgrade-system' to cleanup the crud.  Some of the
 best minds use KDE. ;)

LOL, in that case, consider me one of the worst minds. With my
special set of hotkeys, I've tweaked my Openbox to break the sound
barrier.

:-)

SteveT

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Re: alternative file systems

2014-10-18 Thread Steve Litt

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 12:06:17 +0400
Reco recovery...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hi.
 
 On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:24:16 -0400
 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
 
  On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 03:00:26 +0200
  lee l...@yagibdah.de wrote:
  
  
   But when it eats files and is 10 years behind, why are people
   buying it?
   
   So how can we safely store large amounts of data?
  
  I thought Postgres was supposed to be powerful, stable, reliable,
  and great for lots of data.
 
 Storing all your data in Postgres is surely possible, but what about
 convenience of doing so?
 I mean, how easily the data (say, home videos or photo collection) can
 be put in and retreived.
 
 Reco

I think comm got crossed. Somebody had asked why we use Oracle, someone
else said that was a safe DBMS, and I said what about Postgres. I
would never, never, NEVER store file data like home video or photos in
a DBMS.

SteveT

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Re: Good news on claws-mail

2014-10-18 Thread Steve Litt

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 17:16:04 +0100
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

 Le 18.10.2014 16:29, Peter Nieman a écrit :
  As far as I am concerned, I don't have the time right now to learn
  the officially accepted procedures of filing bug reports in Debian
 
 Just run bugreport (or is it reportbug? I don't have a Debian 
 currently, but I'm trying to fix that :p) . It'll ask you several 
 questions the first time, like, do you want gtk based interface,
 what's your level of knowledge, etc.
 Then, the normal way it works:
 _ asking which package is buggy
 _ checking if there are some updates
 _ if yes, it asks if the user want to report anyway
 _ before letting you send a bug report, it will list the current list 
 (which is sometimes pretty long, but not always)
 _ it asks you if your bug is already there
 _ if yes, it will ask you if you want to improve the bug report
 _ otherwise, it will ask you to write the report
 _ last step, it will ask if you want to be noticed when there are 
 changes on the report
 
 Pretty simple imo. Nicely done. And no registration neeeded, which is 
 really great! (seriously, registering on every damned bug tracker in
 the world is a pain. In debian, this problem is well fixed!)


Very nice, berenger.morel. Thanks for the info.

I just sent a bug I've been working around for several months. Let's
see whether it actually got emailed to Debian.

The process, the questions it asked, and the automatic collection of my
computer's configuration made submitting the bug trivial. *Every*
project should have one of these. Thanks so much for telling me about
this.

SteveT

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Re: Good news on claws-mail

2014-10-18 Thread Steve Litt

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 19:19:26 +0200
Sven Hartge s...@svenhartge.de wrote:

 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
 
  I guess that claws uses (lib)dbus to notify dbus-compliant
  softwares that there is a new mail. 
 
 Also claws might get a signal from (for example) network-manager if
 there is a connection available to toggle its offline/online mode to
 avoid unnecessary tries to connect to the mailserver while offline.
 
 Or to change to polling rate if the device is on battery to conserve
 power.
 
 There are many reasons why a software might want to communicate things
 to other running applications and the standard way of doing so has
 become Dbus.

Here's the official answer as to how Claws uses dbus:

===
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:15:34 -0500
»Q« boxc...@gmx.net wrote: 

 I don't use networkmanager and I don't use any local MTA.  Does C-M
 use dbus for anything else?  

Avant Window Navigator support, and the experimental new address
book, which is not packaged, and disabled by default.

with regards

Paul
===

Reading the preceding, it looks to me like it's used for some fairly
arcane enhancements to the basics of Claws-Mail.

SteveT

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Re: Good news on claws-mail

2014-10-18 Thread Steve Litt

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 17:30:27 +0100
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

 
 
 Le 18.10.2014 16:14, Brian a écrit :
  Which once again raises the main question; what does systemd have
  to do
  with this? The original post gives an unexplained solution to a
  non-existent problem.
 
 Dbus is (a crap, but not only) a tool to allow applications to share 
 informations with other applications (why should those apps to do so,
 is often a mistery for me. 

Hi berenger.morel,

I think you and I have the same basic beliefs about software. Enabling
applications to permiscuously talk to each other, to broadcast their
business to everybody else and to listen to (and presumably take action
depending upon) everybody else's broadcasts, greatly reduces
repairability of the system.

I'm a huge believer in modularity, and one of my definitions of
modularity is that module A knows the business of module B **only** to
the extent it needs to know B's business in order to function. In most
cases, the need is zero.

POSIX gives two modules many, many ways to communicate: Files, piping,
fifos, sockets, heck, I've probably missed five or ten. If both modules
know they'll need to communicate, it's a snap. If one knows, it can be
built with a fifo interface, like mplayer. Or a socket interface.


 Especially why should them have to do that
 in XML...).

I guess that's so they can pass huge, arbitrary data in dbus. My
thought when contemplating that is what could *possibly* go wrong?

[clip]

 
 Now, how softwares did before was maybe a nightmare. Doing the wheel 
 everytime, in different fashion, etc.

Later today I'm writing a whole page on reinventing the wheel. Unless
the wheel you need is very similar to the wheel already invented,
reinventing is simpler, and produces a much smaller and robust design,
than trying to strongarm somebody else's wheel into your needs.

 The other reliable technique I know is through window managers, by 
 setting a flag (I do not know how it's named, I only know about this 
 technique because some softwares uses it... like, for example,
 claws.) which, depending on the WM, will result in a visual and or
 audio hint.

Those visual and audio hints are one of the few things that most
programs might need to write to. They need a predefined standard to
write to, and I guess dbus is the standard being used. If I were in
charge of standards, I might have used something simpler (like a fifo
with a very simple data definition) exclusively for notifications (the
official visual and audio hints), but hey, that's just me.

SteveT

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Re: Openbox systemd-free

2014-10-18 Thread Steve Litt

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 20:20:29 +0100
Keith Peter ping.ke...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello
 
 On my Jessie laptop with sysvinit, X and IceWM updated to today
 installing wicd with --no-install-recommends brings dbus,
 wpasupplicant and wireless-tools with it.
 
 So I just use wpasupplicant in roaming mode with wpa-gtk as I need
 basically wifi in four locations. Not bothering with wicd itself.
 
 Cheers

Nice!

This was exactly the kind of stuff I've been looking for. I'll probably
ask you more about it later.

One look at /etc/wpa_supplicant/functions.sh tells me that
wpa_supplicant is a daemon that's begging to be managed by daemontools
instead of the unfathomable shellscripts it's now managed by. I spoze
one could also make a point for managing it with systemd, but I can't
afford the price of that ticket.

SteveT

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Re: All roads to suspend/hibernate lead through systemd?

2014-10-18 Thread Steve Litt

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 19:53:38 -0700 (PDT)
Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:40:01 PM UTC+5:30, Nate Bargmann
 wrote:
  No, this is not a troll (seems like that is necessary to state up
  front).  I have been experimenting with dropping systemd from my
  laptop running Sid but find that even with xfce4-power-manager
  suspend nor hibernate are available any more unless I install the
  policykit-1 package recommended by the upower package which depends
  on libpam-systemd which, even if I install systemd-shim, also
  installs the systemd package as a dependency, even though it won't
  run as PID 1.
 
 Just a heads up.
 xfce on jessie with systemd
 
 A couple of weeks ago in trying to get round some dependency issues
 I needed to install policykit that did:
 
 libpolkit-agent-1-0 (0.105-6.1)
 libpolkit-backend-1-0 (0.105-6.1)
 policykit-1 (0.105-6.1)
 
 After that direct poweroff from the xfce panel has stopped working
 ie whether I choose logout or shutdown, it only logs out, ie closes
 startx and puts me back in console shell.
 
 [Oh and BTW about 6 months or so back gdm stopped working and Ive
 switched to startx
 ]

There's a certain irony. First, IMHO startx is better than booting
directly to GUI. Secondly, now that stopping X gets you to the command
prompt, you can type whatever shutdown/reboot/poweroff command you
want. Unless those were messed up too.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT)
Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote:
  - Original Message -
 
   Now let's see what happens with this!
   https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html
 
  Very interesting discussion there.  Thanks for posting.
 
  -Rob
 
 Thank you Ian Jackson and all seconders for this.
 Particularly Ian for having done this and become the 'bad-guy' for a 
 good cause.

Yes!!!

Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up for
(what I call) sanity.

SteveT

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Re: how to shutdown in less than 8 minutes

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:56:28 +0200 (CEST)
Pierre Frenkiel pierre.frenk...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, 17 Oct 2014, Michael Biebl wrote:
 
  The samba package does not properly clean up it's config files on
  upgrades. See the RC bug that's filed against samba.
 
  Run update-rc.d samba remove to fix that.
 
  hi Michael,
 
I saw the thread concerning the bug report against samba, but only
saw a proposed fix about the LSB headers(which didn't work),
and not this one.
Actually, you need both:
update-rc.d  samba
and
update-rc.d  samba-ad-dc remove
Then, the shutdown lasts a few seconds
 
Thanks a lot for this valuable information.
 
Question: the daemons nmbd and smbd are still launched by systemd
 at boot. although all the links in /etc/rcxx have been removed. How
 is it done?

This behavior is apparently consistent with a known Samba defect, but
are you all sure that the delay *does* happen during the shutdown of
Samba? If it turns out not to be Samba, you've just needlessly chased
your tail for hours or days.

Personally, I'd find out where all the time is going before
troubleshooting Samba or any other package.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:38:12 -0400
Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote:

 On 10/17/2014 12:21 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
  On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT)
  Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote:
  
  On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote:
  - Original Message -
 
  Now let's see what happens with this!
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html
 
  Very interesting discussion there.  Thanks for posting.
 
  Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up
  for (what I call) sanity.
 
 Still only 4 seconds though...

Succeed or fail, I thank them immensely.

SteveT

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Good news on claws-mail

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

Hi all,

For those of you using Claws-Mail, you can keep it systemd-free into
the foreseeable future by disabling dbus, like this:

./configure --disable-dbus

I've compiled Claws_Mail from source on Debian. It's fairly easy to do,
it can exist in tandem with the existing Claws-Mail (obviously rename
the executables), and it works.

Bang, another 0d program!

SteveT

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Re: A Systemd Second Chance (Sorta)

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:56:16 -0700
Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote:

 Systemd is a done deal, but this may thwart the potential dependency
 issues:
 
   http://lwn.net/Articles/616571/rss

After reading this, I triple my thanks to Ian. What he did took a lot
of guts, even though it was the right thing to do.

Thank you Ian, win or lose. You do good work!

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote:

 Seconds continue
 
 Bernhard R. Link
 Dimitri John Ledkov
 Arnaud Fontaine
 Thorsten Glaser
 
 And once again loud cheers for Ian Jackson and the seconds
 
 Some like Charles Plessy are distressed that this may be
 de-motivating, delaying etc.

Absolutely! By definition it's delaying, and I can't conceive of being
a systemd-agnostic developer or packager and not being de-motivated by
getting yanked this way and that. But ...

This reminds me of the old saying: Marry in haste, repeat at leasure.
This was all forseeable when the CTTE voted, given their decision
logistics. It's too late to repeal the engagement, apparently it's even
too late for an annulment, but at least there can be an agreement to
see others during this loveless marriage.

Systemd as the one-and-only will doubtlessly produce a huge splintering
of Linux. Systemd as the preferred over other alternatives will
probably calm things down.

As for me, regardless of outcome, I'm going to continue finding and
making entanglement-free software. In fact, I should have started doing
this ten years ago, and in fact, I should have given much higher
priority to freedom from gratuitous dependencies of all types. I always
had a lousy feeling about network-manager: I should have created a
simple, low dependence alternative years ago. I've always had a lousy
feeling about dbus, and should have prioritized dbus-free software
years ago.

And from now on, when people laugh at my ugly, no-dependency, home grown
solutions as kludges, I'll have exactly two words to say to them:
*Thank you*.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote:


 Seconds continue
 
 Bernhard R. Link
 Dimitri John Ledkov
 Arnaud Fontaine
 Thorsten Glaser
 
 And once again loud cheers for Ian Jackson and the seconds

Abso-Lutely!

[snip]
 
 However the contentiousness of this case clearly overrides the
 need to hit deadlines

I agree.

SteveT

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Re: alternative file systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 03:00:26 +0200
lee l...@yagibdah.de wrote:


 But when it eats files and is 10 years behind, why are people buying
 it?
 
 So how can we safely store large amounts of data?

I thought Postgres was supposed to be powerful, stable, reliable, and
great for lots of data.

SteveT

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Re: Conflict of interest in Debian

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:06:11 -0400
Henning Follmann hfollm...@itcfollmann.com wrote:

 On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 02:08:47PM -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
  - Original Message -
   From: Marty mar...@ix.netcom.com
   
   It seems like free software employment and market share come with
   increasing risk to objectivity and technical quality. It's my main
   concern as a Debian user, as I consider recent trends.
   
   I hope that Debian members consider an amendment to restrict
   voting rights for members who have a financial interest in Debian
   or in any project used by Debian, to promote and protect the
   public interest.
  
  Conflicts of interest are not just financial.  Even an unpaid
  developer should probably not be voting as a technical committee
  member on whether to make his project the Debian default.  He could
  vote for his project because of the glory that comes with being the
  Debian default.  Or maybe he truly believes it is the best.  But he
  knows his project better than any of the alternatives.  He is
  invested in it.  He should be the expert petitioning the
  decision-makers, but he should not be one of the decision-makers.
  
  I really think this concept is obvious and was really surprised
  that Debian allowed a vote for default init system to occur in a
  technical committee whose members have vested interests in one init
  system or another. 
  
  Avoiding perceived conflict of interest is just as important as
  avoiding actual conflict of interest, because it undermines
  confidence in the leadership.  Most conflict-of-interest
  regulations that I know of (USA-based) reflect this.  (But let's
  not start citing examples of government officials who have violated
  these principles -- we all know there are plenty).  
  
  Anyway, regardless of how impartial the tech committee members are
  believed to be, the upstart guys and the systemd guys probably
  should not have participated in the vote for default init system.  
  
  -Rob
  
  
  
 
 There was no conflict of interest. Every voter has some interests and
 the outcome of a vote determines the common interest. But there is no
 conflict of interest during a vote.

You're a man after former Chicago Mayor Richard J Daley's heart!

 A conflict happens when somebody is entrusted by a group to guard a
 common good and he/she has her/himself interests in that good. 

Or, when his paycheck or bribe might cause him to vote a certain way.

 
 This thread is about the inability to accept a outcome of a democratic
 process. Now they claim to own the right debian way and to protect
 that some un-debian persons have to be stopped. I have seen that
 before...

Keep telling yourself that.

SteveT

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Re: how to shutdown in less than 8 minutes

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 22:44:41 +0200 (CEST)
Pierre Frenkiel pierre.frenk...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, 17 Oct 2014, Steve Litt wrote:
 
  are you all sure that the delay *does* happen during the shutdown of
  Samba? If it turns out not to be Samba, you've just needlessly
  chased your tail for hours or days.
 
I'm quite sure, because:
1/  there are a lot of bug reports against samba about this problem
 
2/ before removing the samba links, I had this message at shutdown
   with a countdown of 5 minutes
 
   A stop job is running for LSB: ensure samba daemons are started
 (nmbd and smbd) ( 3 min 2 s / 5 min )
 
3/ after removal of the samba links, the shutdown takes a few
 seconds ...

Bang, that's it, you proved it.

Obviously, your next step is to do the corrective maintenance suggested
for Samba. If that doesn't eliminate the symptom...

My next step would be, just as a diagnostic test, run smb and nmb from
a terminal, then shut them down again, and see if the problem occurs.
If so, ***TEMPORARILY*** replace your smb.conf with the simplest
possible smb.conf (maybe just printers) and see if the problem still
occurs. If so, ask for help on the Samba list. But if the simplest
possible smb.conf shuts down in a few seconds, then start adding stuff
back until you find the Samba service that takes all the time, and
examine that.

SteveT

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Re: how to shutdown in less than 8 minutes

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 23:51:34 +0300
Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:


 I meant
 
 /etc/init.d/nmbd
 /etc/init.d/smbd
 
 Kind regards,
 Andrei

LOL, same here (in my advice on troubleshooting to Pierre)_.

SteveT

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Re: how to boot in les than 8 minutes

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:15:01 -0700 (MST)
Buntunub mckis...@gmail.com wrote:

 Pierre Frenkiel wrote
  hi,
  it seems that tha last version of systemd in jessie (215-5+b1)
  has a big number of bugs, among which the very long time to
  shutdown, mainly
  for samba (5 minutes). Trying to kill samba manually before the
  shutdown did not solve the problem.
 
 If this is the future with Systemd, then all the more reason to
 ensure we maintain more seasoned init systems, which we know work
 without issues like this. Has Debian utterly forgotten its roots of
 stability and conservative approach to adopting experimental software
 in its stable releases?

Hey, I hate systemd as much as the next guy, but the diagnosis implied
by the OP's quoted text is nowhere near ready to declare systemd as the
root cause. Contrarily, the fact that his shutting down manually
reproduced his symptom makes it unlikely that any PID1, including
systemd, is responsible. My suspicion at this point would be either a
flaw in his smb.conf (which is easy to test by temporarily replacing it
with a minimal) or Samba itself.

It turned out he was starting two of them, one by systemd and one
elsewhere. Umm, err, blush, I recently had the exact same problem with
daemontools!

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 10:20:25 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:

 According to what I understand as an engineer, everything that systemd
 does beyond the minimum (in other words, beyond being the ultimate
 backstop for signals and dying orphaned processes) should be
 delegated.

I would add that it should be delegated to an interchangeable part
through a well-specified thin interface, without global variables like
dbus. Or, if there *must* be a global variable, at least make it
purposed only for interaction between init and program, and not used by
my music player to announce song titles.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:52:32 -0700
Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 10/17/2014 07:54 AM, Rusi Mody wrote:
  On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote:
  - Original Message -
 
  Now let's see what happens with this!
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html
 
  Very interesting discussion there.  Thanks for posting.
 
  -Rob
 
  Thank you Ian Jackson and all seconders for this.
  Particularly Ian for having done this and become the 'bad-guy' for a
  good cause.
 
 
 Yes!  I too think Ian for sticking up for Debian, I was following the
 posts and Ian's membership was indeed threatened..it's so insane and
 Ian is trying to save what is left of Debian..But this GR is not
 enough..I propose all of 'systemd' be removed as default, it's doing
 nothing but causing problems, VLC-headless is requiring the
 VLC-player is ridicules, readable text files(my logs) are now
 unreadable is not rational at all,

The perfect is the enemy of the good. The GR is good enough for the
time being. We're proceeding with a two prong plan:

1) The GR might cause init program choice.
2) Several of us are documenting, and creating, systemd-free software.

I think at this point insisting on systemd being declared non-default
might risk the success of #1. If they vote no on the GR, then I think
that unless Red Hat succeeds in systemdizing X itself, we'll (meaning
those of us who care) will replace systemd-contaminated software with
init-agnostic software. And for sure, boycott all systemd-dependent
software to the best of our ability.

The GR is good thing because one of two things will become obvious in
the coming years. Either:

A. We were right all along, Linux is being destroyed, and because we've
  maintained init choice, we can dump systemd and the corporation that
  tried to destory Linux.

B. They were right, the world goes on, and systemd is a nonissue. 

I think within three or four years we'll know which of the above is
true. If it's A, we'll take Linux back from Red Hat, and with any luck
cause the demise of Red Hat via competition of a superior OS. If it's
B, we won't even let out a wimper if, in 2018, they finally declare
systemd as the one true init.

I just don't want to do anything that jeopardizes the chances of the GR
voting for choice.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:59:44 -0700
Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 10/17/2014 08:44 PM, Ric Moore wrote:
  On 10/17/2014 10:22 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
 
 
  What's the hurry, Squeeze is good until 2016, we have plenty of
  time to test other init-systems.
 
  You use KDE. Where you there when KDE3 became KDE4 and broke our
  hearts? What a flame fest that was. Yet, you use it now? Ah! Time
  must have finally smoothed the rough edges. Yet, KDE4 happened no
  matter what any of us had to say, and I was royally jerked about
  it. Gnome went through the very same cycle. So did Ubuntu with all
  of the lens (IMHO) junk. Every one of those projects were driven
  top-down. We users just got pulled along.
 
 
 Yes! I was at the KDE4 release at Google what fun..I also helped with 
 Trinity, Linux is about diversity and Debian has always been the
 leader.

Whoa guys, slow down on the generalizations. Don't assume everyone uses
KDE4. Two years ago I kicked KDE, in its entirety, libraries and all,
off all my computers. It's an entangled monolith and a danger to
computing. The time might come when I need to do the same with Gnome.
Don't assume that users just bend over and take this entangled junk.

SteveT

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Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems

2014-10-17 Thread Steve Litt

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 01:26:11 -0400
Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote:

 /Snip/
 
 That's not the problem. A few people have recognized the problem(s).
 1--Putting all your eggs (programs) in one basket. Making almost 
 everything have a dependency on systemd. Registry, anyone?
 2--Forcing the entire Linux community to use just one system, and
 every application to be modified so as to run on systemd.
 3--Making all those applications incompatible with any other version
 of Unix. Never mind GNU's not Unix. This stuff we're running is
 essentially Unix. 
 4--Eliminating readable logs. 
 
 I probably missed a few along the way.

So let me add a couple:

* Design with no regard to repairability. In fact, hostility toward
  repairability.
* Lessening the use of interchangeable parts.
* Giving design leadership to a guy who said Linux isn't a real
  operating system.

But here's the thing, Doug. Even if it were nothing more than your
first two points, it would be a travesty.

SteveT

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