Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
Hi, We already have a guru list. It is called debian-devel. And we already have issues that migrate between the lists as appropriate. Unfortunately, that does not cut down on the volume of debian-user. manoj >>"John" == John Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: John> 'Normal' users (like myself) post to the 'user' list. John> Access to the guru list is restricted to Maintainers, John> Administrators of reasonable sized installations etc. John> If someone who is on the 'guru' list (ie Dwarf, Bruce, etc) John> thinks it appropriate they forward ia post on the 'user' list to John> the guru list with the return address of the original poster. John> This way the 'easy' questions (everything is easy once you know John> how!) stay on the 'user' list, and the 'hard' questions get John> across to the guru list via moderators. John> There could be a 'test' for access to the 'guru' list (a coupla John> questions about sendmail internals, or kernel internals or John> something), or it could be by invitation only. -- "We came. We saw. We kicked its ass." Bill Murray, _Ghostbusters_ Manoj Srivastava mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mobile, Alabama USAhttp://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/> -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
Hi, High volume lists do not have to have you missing important mail; Debian comes with procmail and mailagent, which should help ou priotize your mail reading. manoj -- "I will make no bargains with terrorist hardware." Peter da Silva Manoj Srivastava mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mobile, Alabama USAhttp://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/> -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, George Bonser wrote: > > > A better approach could be to do a functional split, such as a > > debian-X11, debian-config or debian-dist. This would reduce volume on > > the main list without having people crossposting all over the place to > > be sure to get an answer. > > > > Either that or start a newsgroup heirarchy. debian. > But that would be worse, one get's kicked off faster on UseNet than on mailing list's, also, it's easy to configure you mail agent (pine, elm, mailx, etc.) to receive mail, than to receive news, i found configuring news i real headache! Bye Roberto Ruiz -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
> What are the security implications of a default installation of dwww? My > understanding is that an http daemon must be active to use dwww. Is this > correct? I have yet to set up my own http servers on Linux boxes because > I am not confident in my understanding of the security issues. > > Thanks. Syrus. Well, it's probably a good idea to restrict access to dwww to just your PC or your local area network. The dwww CGI script should not be an issue (except if you have a version before 1.4.1, which had a minor flaw, which could be major if you configured your CGI scripts to run as root). However, if an attacking party can view dwww, they can determine what software packages are installed on your machine, and use that information to search for vulnerabilities. Theoretically, an up-to-date Debian machine should have no vulnerabilities -- but that might not be the case with brand new security bugs, misconfigured software, or a system that hasn't been updated for a while. Restricting access to dwww is dependent on what web server you are running. For Apache or NCSA, add the following to your configuration files: order deny,allow deny from all allow from .jimpick.com (replace the allow from clause with whatever is appropriate for your site) I should add this information to dwww. It would also be nice if dwww could automatically configure all this automatically for whatever web server is installed -- but then we get the situation where the installation script is a larger program than the program it is installing (if it isn't already). Cheers, - Jim pgpPpzA9JvgpZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bruce Perens wrote: > From: George Bonser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > [...] create a default fvwm popup menu when you click on the root > > window. The first item in that window is "Help on Linux". Selecting that > > gives the next layer popup that includes links to such things as the woven > > docs (FAQ's, HOWTO's, etc in HTML) and launches a browser to read them. > > > Seems to me the first step would be in deciding on a default standard X > > window manager and then going on to the default menus from there. > > Our "menu" package already adds menus to _many_ different window managers, > and to character-oriented shells as well. Our "dwww" package need only > register a menu entry "Help with Linux", and it would appear. The biggest > missing piece right now is that "menu" and "dwww" are not installed by > default, and there should be an easy check box that gets the beginner a > GUI-enabled system with them installed. What are the security implications of a default installation of dwww? My understanding is that an http daemon must be active to use dwww. Is this correct? I have yet to set up my own http servers on Linux boxes because I am not confident in my understanding of the security issues. Thanks. Syrus. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Syrus Nemat-Nasser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>UCSD Physics Dept. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters (fwd)
Hi, As J.H.M.Dassen, and W Paul Mills kindly pointed out to me, "^TO" in .procmailrc matches the beginning of most lines with recieving addresses. I will have to learn to read the mail carefully ... I missed it was capital letters in TO ... and I also have to check things up in the man-pages before answering. But that applies to many of the questioners on this list as well. Please try to find the answers in the man-pages and the /usr/doc dir before asking the list. That will probably reduce the load quiet a bit ( wow, I found my way back to the topic of this thread ;) On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Fredrik Ax wrote: > :0:/home/fax/mail/incoming/debian-user.lock > * ^X-Mailing-List:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > /home/fax/mail/incoming/debian-user > But I still think it's better to filter on the "X-Mailing-List" header. There are after all, methods of sending mails to the list without having the address in any field of the header. /fax -- +- Fredrik Ax -+-- Snailmail --+- Where to reach me on the net -+ |\\|// | Kämnärsvägen 13 E:202 | E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | @ @ | S-226 46 LUND, SWEDEN | WWW: http://www.df.lth.se/~fax | +-oOO-(_)-OOo--+---++ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
Bruce Perens: > Our "menu" package already adds menus to _many_ different window managers, > and to character-oriented shells as well. Our "dwww" package need only > register a menu entry "Help with Linux", and it would appear. The biggest > missing piece right now is that "menu" and "dwww" are not installed by > default, and there should be an easy check box that gets the beginner a > GUI-enabled system with them installed. Since the menu package is becoming more and more important to various parts of debian, could its priority should be changed to "standard"? Another way would be to have any program like fvwm that uses the menu program to display menus, Suggest: menu. (Not that I have anything against a "Enable GUI system" checkbox, but either of these changes would make the menu system be selected when it should be if the system is installed with dselect.) -- see shy jo -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
Stephane Bortzmeyer writes: > > > This list has a terribly high volume. More than half of the messages are > non-Debian related (like Ethernet 3com problems) and should, IMHO, belong I've read a number of replies to this message. While I agree that high volume is not necessarily a good thing, I hate to miss good information which may not be Debian specific (like setting up a firewall, or getting StarOffice to work in the Debian enviroment, or getting a WIN95 system to link up with Debian, etc. etc.) One always has the option to filter and/or delete unwanted messages. FAQ's are not always up to date and you might not be aware of the existance of newer equipment - other reasons for receiving the extra messages 8-) -- -= Sent by Debian 1.2 Linux =- Thomas Kocourek KD4CIK - member of ARRL @[EMAIL PROTECTED]@westgac3.dragon.com Remove @_@ for correct Email address --... ...-- ... -.. . -.- -.. - -.-. .. -.- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
> A better approach could be to do a functional split, such as a > debian-X11, debian-config or debian-dist. This would reduce volume on > the main list without having people crossposting all over the place to > be sure to get an answer. > Either that or start a newsgroup heirarchy. debian. George Bonser [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Fredrik Ax wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Max Stevens wrote: > > > :0: > > * ^TOdebian-user ^^^See this. > > debian-user > > > > If match "* ^To.*debian-user" you will miss all CC:ed and BCC:ed mail to > the list. You will also miss all mail that have named the list e.g. > "Debian Mailinglist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" Nope! From the procmailrc man page: MISCELLANEOUS If the regular expression contains `^TO' it will be sub- stituted by `(^((Original-)?(Resent-)?(To|Cc|Bcc)|(X- Envelope|Apparently(-Resent)?)-To):(.*[^a-zA-Z])?)', which should catch all destination specifications. If the regular expression contains `^FROM_DAEMON' it will be substituted by `(^(Precedence:.*(junk|bulk|list) |(((Resent-)?(From|Sender)|X-Envelope-From):|>?From )(.*[^([EMAIL PROTECTED])?(Post(ma?(st(e?r)?|n)|office) |(send)?Mail(er)?|daemon|mmdf|root|n?uucp|smtp|response BuGless 1994/10/31 12 > > One solution would be to match "* ^(To|Cc)[EMAIL PROTECTED]" which will get > all mails whith "debian-user@" somewhere on the lines beginning with "To" > or "Cc". This method is very usefull for list that don't add a header.. > which the debian-lists fortunatly do. The best alternative would therefore > be to match the added header instead: > > :0:/home/fax/mail/incoming/debian-user.lock > * ^X-Mailing-List:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > /home/fax/mail/incoming/debian-user > http://www.sound.net/~wpmills/ - : W. Paul Mills : Bill, I was there several years ago. : : Topeka, Kansas, U.S.A. : Why would I want to go back tomorrow?: : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Where were you! : : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : : : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Linux: Tomorrow's operating system, : : [EMAIL PROTECTED] :here, today. : : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : : : compuserve 70023,1750 : #define MY_TRUE_LOVE computer: -- http://homepage.midusa.net/~wpmills/ - -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bruce Perens wrote: > Our "menu" package already adds menus to _many_ different window managers, > and to character-oriented shells as well. Our "dwww" package need only > register a menu entry "Help with Linux", and it would appear. The biggest > missing piece right now is that "menu" and "dwww" are not installed by > default, and there should be an easy check box that gets the beginner a > GUI-enabled system with them installed. Bruce, I agree except that a GUI should be 'icing on the cake' and not a default. What's nice about the dwww approach is that a local apache installs easily and so does lynx. I did a 1.3 install yesterday and didn't have a clue as to the mouse type and video card that would finally be in the system. The apache/dwww/lynx combo doesn't need X. We should really encourage the installation and use of these because the later transition from lynx to an X-based browser is easy on the user. Whereever it is safe to do so, this could be expanded on. A good example is the CGI/perl scripts for common commands like 'who'. Why not start a collection of these so the user can get some system information using the same interface? +--+ + Paul Wade Greenbush Technologies Corporation + + mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.greenbush.com/ + +--+ + http://www.greenbush.com/cds.html Special Linux CD offer + +--+ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Jun 10, Fredrik Ax wrote > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Max Stevens wrote: > > :0: > > * ^TOdebian-user ^^^ > > debian-user > > If match "* ^To.*debian-user" you will miss all CC:ed and BCC:ed mail to ^^^ ^TO != ^To. TO also catches Cc and Bcc. See procmailrc(5): | If the regular expression contains `^TO' it will be substituted by | `(^((Original-)?(Resent-)?(To|Cc|Bcc)|(X-Envelope|Apparently(-Resent)?)-To): | (.*[^a-zA-Z])?)', which should catch all destination specifications. HTH, Ray -- Cyberspace, a final frontier. These are the voyages of my messages, on a lightspeed mission to explore strange new systems and to boldly go where no data has gone before. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Max Stevens wrote: > :0: > * ^TOdebian-user > debian-user > If match "* ^To.*debian-user" you will miss all CC:ed and BCC:ed mail to the list. You will also miss all mail that have named the list e.g. "Debian Mailinglist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" One solution would be to match "* ^(To|Cc)[EMAIL PROTECTED]" which will get all mails whith "debian-user@" somewhere on the lines beginning with "To" or "Cc". This method is very usefull for list that don't add a header.. which the debian-lists fortunatly do. The best alternative would therefore be to match the added header instead: :0:/home/fax/mail/incoming/debian-user.lock * ^X-Mailing-List:[EMAIL PROTECTED] /home/fax/mail/incoming/debian-user /fax -- +- Fredrik Ax -+-- Snailmail --+- Where to reach me on the net -+ |\\|// | Kämnärsvägen 13 E:202 | E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | @ @ | S-226 46 LUND, SWEDEN | WWW: http://www.df.lth.se/~fax | +-oOO-(_)-OOo--+---++ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
> "Max" == Max Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Max> Although the creation of a 'Debian-guru' list would have the same Max> effect as creating a 'Debian-newbie' list. Everybody would ask Max> their questions on the guru list ... A better approach could be to do a functional split, such as a debian-X11, debian-config or debian-dist. This would reduce volume on the main list without having people crossposting all over the place to be sure to get an answer. Of course finding the right split is not easy, but with a little statistic on the distribution of subjects in the past, one should be able to get a sensible partitioning. And there must not be too many; 2-4 max. ---+-- Christian Lynbech | Computer Science Department, University of Aarhus Office: R0.32 | Ny Munkegade, Building 540, DK-8000 Aarhus C Phone: +45 8942 3218 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.daimi.aau.dk/~lynbech ---+-- Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael A. Petonic) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
> "Fredrik" == Fredrik Ax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Fredrik> On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, DANIEL STRINGFIELD wrote: >> I'm not personally thrilled with the high volume, but I wouldn't Fredrik> I couldn't agree more to this. After all this is a Fredrik> debian-USER list. Me too. One should not forget that if all non-strictly-debian stuff are banned, it would force even casual users such as my self to start following other forums such as the linux newsgroups, and I believe I would quickly end up with even more volume than we currently are seeing on this list. As it is now, I can get by just reading debian-user and has no pressing need to follow any linux newsgroups. But it seems likely that another debian list or two perhaps could help organizing the volume a bit. ---+-- Christian Lynbech | Computer Science Department, University of Aarhus Office: R0.32 | Ny Munkegade, Building 540, DK-8000 Aarhus C Phone: +45 8942 3218 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.daimi.aau.dk/~lynbech ---+-- Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael A. Petonic) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
From: George Bonser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [...] create a default fvwm popup menu when you click on the root > window. The first item in that window is "Help on Linux". Selecting that > gives the next layer popup that includes links to such things as the woven > docs (FAQ's, HOWTO's, etc in HTML) and launches a browser to read them. > Seems to me the first step would be in deciding on a default standard X > window manager and then going on to the default menus from there. Our "menu" package already adds menus to _many_ different window managers, and to character-oriented shells as well. Our "dwww" package need only register a menu entry "Help with Linux", and it would appear. The biggest missing piece right now is that "menu" and "dwww" are not installed by default, and there should be an easy check box that gets the beginner a GUI-enabled system with them installed. Thanks Bruce -- Bruce Perens K6BP [EMAIL PROTECTED] 510-215-3502 Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP public key. PGP fingerprint = 88 6A 15 D0 65 D4 A3 A6 1F 89 6A 76 95 24 87 B3 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, John Foster wrote: > OK, how's this then: > > 'Normal' users (like myself) post to the 'user' list. > > Access to the guru list is restricted to Maintainers, Administrators > of reasonable sized installations etc. But that would recreate the debian-devel list wouldn't it? -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
debian-user is for users, all users, and I think it should stay that way. Yes the volume is high, but there's something to be said for keeping everyone on equal footing. I don't read debian-user every day, but most days. I try to get to it fairly regularly and answer questions when I can. If you create somthing like debian-guru you're just asking for many of the knowledgable people to leave debian-user and never look back. What I think we really need is a good debian-user FAQ, so that we can point people to that. (I think I recall that someone's already working on this.) opinion proferred -- Rob -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, John Foster wrote: > > Midnight Commander (mc) could fill this role. As it happens the current > > version is broken to the extent that it does not know how to access .deb > > files. There is a bug report on this which is a month old but mc is still > > useful as it can handle .gz files and the like. > > > > The bug is easily fixed, BTW. mc_3.5.17-1.deb has two copies of mc.ext. > > One is right and one is wrong. The "right" version is in the wrong place. > > If you have this problem mv /etc/mc.ext /etc/mc/ > > Good idea. Could a simple question "Are you new to Debian/GNU Linux?" > be added to the script for the first time run, so that access to mc > comes in immediately for the newbies. I guess it would require mc, > curses and some of the docs moving into base though, or for the answer > to the question to run dpkg (dpkg-ftp) after the system is installed. > > Then mc macros could be added for the newbie, so that they have access > to those docs. Coolest idea yet! I remember when Debian (and Linux in general) was a weird new world for me; MC made it at least fathomable. Relied on it pretty heavily. Now I seldom use it (except when I wanna dwell in Nostalgia), but am glad it was there. . . |< /-\ (-) /-\ --- Linux: The OS people choose without $200,000,000 of persuasion --- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
> I've been thinking about the entire newbie/documentation thing a lot > lately. There has to be a way for newbies to get into the > /usr/doc/*/*gz files before they know about gzip, zcat and zless. And > there has to be a way of saying RTFM without being rude. I think it's more than simply saying RTFM. For myself, I've found many cases where the FM isn't decipherable. Having seens countless shareware programs from the DOS world I'm constantly amazed at the documentation of unix programs. I don't mean this to knock the programmers, I'm just stating something that many newbies see. Yes, there should be a way to make sure that newbies RTFM. But there also has to be an outlet for newbies to get clarification and answers after pulling their hair out from reading the FM. | Debian GNU/ __ o Regards, |/ / _ _ _ _ _ __ __ .| / /__ / / / \// //_// \ \/ / Randy| // /_/ /_/\/ /___/ /_/\_\ ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) | ...because lockups are for convicts... -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, John Foster wrote: > If there is to be a new list, then perhaps a "Debian-Guru" list would > be more appropriate. I'd like to see debian-guru: the newbies won't be afraid that they are joining a list with no help (everyone is already on user), and the guru's get their low volume list since no one is on it yet (this is a vote against debian-newbie). In the long run I don't foresee any problems, since I was on linux-newbie for almost a year and that list was great, without the admin work I've heard suggested before (experienced newbies helped the real newbies). If it's not to much to ask, perhaps a debian-guru could be made and see how it works. I don't have any problems with the newbies asking questions here, it's hard to tell when a question is debian or non-debian. Also subscribing to debian-user and linux-newbie can be too much. My apologies for adding to this debate, however, hopefully something good can come out of it. Brandon - Brandon Mitchell E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7877/home.html "We all know Linux is great...it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." --Linus Torvalds -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
> I also find the idea of forcing the newbie into a particular X/Window > Manager configuration somewhat disturbing. One of the many reasons I > like Debian is that my PC looks like _my_ PC. > > So far I like the mc approach best. > > John Foster > > > 1) If we settled on some kind of a default, the system could be pretty much self-configuring. 2) You can't force anything on a newbie. Since they probably do not know what X is, they will be happy to have a more functional X system at startup and they can ALWAYS change it. Even COL has twm and olvm options in that same popup menu under the "Desktop" selections. I know that COL is a commercial system and I am not suggesting that Debian should be as extensive, I am simply expressing my opinion that it can be made a bit more functional "right out of the box" and have easy to find documentation a click away from the desktop. George Bonser [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, George Bonser wrote: > I have a system here with Caldera Open Linux Standard and one thing that > they did was create a default fvwm popup menu when you click on the root > window. The first item in that window is "Help on Linux". Selecting that > gives the next layer popup that includes links to such things as the woven > docs (FAQ's, HOWTO's, etc in HTML) and launches a browser to read them. > > Since Debian could not launch Netscape by default, they COULD launch lynx > in an Xterm or possibly the new GUI linux browser when it is ready. The > point here is the default fvwm X configuration is VERY helpful allowing > you to select things like configuration tools and the like from popup > menus. Root has different menus than the users do. (actually root has > more ADDITIONS to the default systemwide selection). > > Seems to me the first step would be in deciding on a default standard X > window manager and then going on to the default menus from there. The problem with that is that the two commonest newbie questions are: How do I get ppp working? and How do I get X working? Keep in mind that most newbies won't know if it's a Debian or a Linux or a GNU problem, so they'll probably ask here! Also keep in mind that a newbie could quite easily stuff with dselect on the first run, so they could easily have no ppp or X for a while, even if a default configuration is provided. I also find the idea of forcing the newbie into a particular X/Window Manager configuration somewhat disturbing. One of the many reasons I like Debian is that my PC looks like _my_ PC. So far I like the mc approach best. John Foster -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Lindsay Allen wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, John Foster wrote: > > [snip] > > I've been thinking about the entire newbie/documentation thing a lot > > lately. There has to be a way for newbies to get into the > > /usr/doc/*/*gz files before they know about gzip, zcat and zless. And > > there has to be a way of saying RTFM without being rude. > > Midnight Commander (mc) could fill this role. As it happens the current > version is broken to the extent that it does not know how to access .deb > files. There is a bug report on this which is a month old but mc is still > useful as it can handle .gz files and the like. > > The bug is easily fixed, BTW. mc_3.5.17-1.deb has two copies of mc.ext. > One is right and one is wrong. The "right" version is in the wrong place. > If you have this problem mv /etc/mc.ext /etc/mc/ Good idea. Could a simple question "Are you new to Debian/GNU Linux?" be added to the script for the first time run, so that access to mc comes in immediately for the newbies. I guess it would require mc, curses and some of the docs moving into base though, or for the answer to the question to run dpkg (dpkg-ftp) after the system is installed. Then mc macros could be added for the newbie, so that they have access to those docs. Opinions anyone? John Foster -- You are in a maze of twisty little HOWTOs, all gziped. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Lindsay Allen wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, John Foster wrote: > > [snip] > > I've been thinking about the entire newbie/documentation thing a lot > > lately. There has to be a way for newbies to get into the > > /usr/doc/*/*gz files before they know about gzip, zcat and zless. And > > there has to be a way of saying RTFM without being rude. > > Midnight Commander (mc) could fill this role. As it happens the current > version is broken to the extent that it does not know how to access .deb > files. There is a bug report on this which is a month old but mc is still > useful as it can handle .gz files and the like. > I have a system here with Caldera Open Linux Standard and one thing that they did was create a default fvwm popup menu when you click on the root window. The first item in that window is "Help on Linux". Selecting that gives the next layer popup that includes links to such things as the woven docs (FAQ's, HOWTO's, etc in HTML) and launches a browser to read them. Since Debian could not launch Netscape by default, they COULD launch lynx in an Xterm or possibly the new GUI linux browser when it is ready. The point here is the default fvwm X configuration is VERY helpful allowing you to select things like configuration tools and the like from popup menus. Root has different menus than the users do. (actually root has more ADDITIONS to the default systemwide selection). Seems to me the first step would be in deciding on a default standard X window manager and then going on to the default menus from there. George Bonser [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, John Foster wrote: [snip] > I've been thinking about the entire newbie/documentation thing a lot > lately. There has to be a way for newbies to get into the > /usr/doc/*/*gz files before they know about gzip, zcat and zless. And > there has to be a way of saying RTFM without being rude. Midnight Commander (mc) could fill this role. As it happens the current version is broken to the extent that it does not know how to access .deb files. There is a bug report on this which is a month old but mc is still useful as it can handle .gz files and the like. The bug is easily fixed, BTW. mc_3.5.17-1.deb has two copies of mc.ext. One is right and one is wrong. The "right" version is in the wrong place. If you have this problem mv /etc/mc.ext /etc/mc/ Lindsay -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, John Foster wrote: > And there has to be a way of saying RTFM without being rude. There is. Give a brief answer to the question and follow with something like "for more details, see 'man foo' and the documentation in /usr/doc/foo" the brief answer can be useful in itself or simply an "i dont know, but I vaguely recall seeing something about that in the documentation" the thing to remember is you're dealing with newbies. you can't assume that they know how to get to the documentation, so make it easy for them by briefly explaining how to find the docs. That's all that most people need - a pointer in the right direction. craig -- craig sanders networking consultant Available for casual or contract temporary autonomous zone system administration tasks. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
> Although the creation of a 'Debian-guru' list would have the same > effect as creating a 'Debian-newbie' list. Everybody would ask their > questions on the guru list since > a. All the gurus would be reading it (obviously) > b. None of the gurus would bother reading the regular list > anymore (or at least not in any detail) > c. Everybody thinks their question is really difficult and needs > a guru to answer it. OK, how's this then: 'Normal' users (like myself) post to the 'user' list. Access to the guru list is restricted to Maintainers, Administrators of reasonable sized installations etc. If someone who is on the 'guru' list (ie Dwarf, Bruce, etc) thinks it appropriate they forward ia post on the 'user' list to the guru list with the return address of the original poster. This way the 'easy' questions (everything is easy once you know how!) stay on the 'user' list, and the 'hard' questions get across to the guru list via moderators. There could be a 'test' for access to the 'guru' list (a coupla questions about sendmail internals, or kernel internals or something), or it could be by invitation only. I've been thinking about the entire newbie/documentation thing a lot lately. There has to be a way for newbies to get into the /usr/doc/*/*gz files before they know about gzip, zcat and zless. And there has to be a way of saying RTFM without being rude. John Foster -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
Ed Down wrote: > What _I_ would like is a nice concise posting regarding setting up a mail > filter for pine and other mail progs, posted regularly, so that instead of > saying 'I will unsubscribe' and losing possibly important members of the > list, people say 'That mail filter sounds easy to set up, I'll do that > instead'. With Communicator one can start using filters and (gasp!) digital signatures. Actually, I haven't had the time to set up my debian-user filters up. So currently all the emails to this list get dumped into a folder for future reading. A way of having meaningful subject lines could work. But again, it would not if people did not follow the naming convention. I emailed a post last week that went 'update-menus broken in 1.4?' In retrospect I think I should have chosen a better subject line. How about the following scheme - [net] problem with communicator install [x11] problem setting up fvwm2 menus etc. J/ my 2 cents. Sudhakar -- "When all else fails, read the instructions." Sudhakar Chandrasekharan(415) 937-2354 (O) International Web Engineer Type of Guy (415) 940-1896 (H) http://home.netscape.com/people/thaths/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
Although the creation of a 'Debian-guru' list would have the same effect as creating a 'Debian-newbie' list. Everybody would ask their questions on the guru list since a. All the gurus would be reading it (obviously) b. None of the gurus would bother reading the regular list anymore (or at least not in any detail) c. Everybody thinks their question is really difficult and needs a guru to answer it. M On Jun 10, 7:38am, John Foster wrote: } Subject: Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters | On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Randy Edwards wrote: | | >If it's decided to tighten things up, the powers that be should give | > thought to a Debian-specific newbie list if this list isn't going to | > support that function. | | If there is to be a new list, then perhaps a "Debian-Guru" list would | be more appropriate. | }-- End of excerpt from John Foster -- Max Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Max is a sagittarius but Max's family owns a taurus. This is the dichotomy that is Max. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Randy Edwards wrote: >If it's decided to tighten things up, the powers that be should give > thought to a Debian-specific newbie list if this list isn't going to > support that function. Hmmm... The problem would be that the list would be used by people of limited help to one another, unless some more experienced users want to take on the responsiblity of dealing with the enquiries. If there is to be a new list, then perhaps a "Debian-Guru" list would be more appropriate. John Foster -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
As long as we're talking about this list and filters, I just joined this list and I made sure I had a mailfilter going *before I even joined*. I mean come on people, there's always going to be noise on a mailing list. Filtering it is better then complaining about it. I recommend (highly highly highly) procmail, since it can do everything under the sun. My procmailrc file (or a watered down version thereof) is... PATH=/bin:/usr/bin MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail LOGFILE=$MAILDIR/proclog # recommended LOCKEXT=.procmaillock LOGABSTRACT=all# while debugging, make it log a lot :0: * ^TO.*maxmax ibm_junk :0: * ^TOdebian-user debian-user :0: * ^From.*jomsteve from_me But of course, now I'm not talking about debian specific stuff anymore. M On Jun 9, 10:46am, Brian K Servis wrote: } Subject: Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters | Ed Down writes: | > | >What _I_ would like is a nice concise posting regarding setting up a mail | >filter for pine and other mail progs, posted regularly | | As for filtering I use elm on my isp to read and filter my mail. With all | the debian going to a separate folder. This way I don't have to worry about | deleting an email by accident when purging debian mail. | }-- End of excerpt from Brian K Servis -- Max Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Max is a sagittarius but Max's family owns a taurus. This is the dichotomy that is Max. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
Ed Down writes: > >What _I_ would like is a nice concise posting regarding setting up a mail >filter for pine and other mail progs, posted regularly, so that instead of >saying 'I will unsubscribe' and losing possibly important members of the >list, people say 'That mail filter sounds easy to set up, I'll do that >instead'. > As for the main part of the thread I enjoy the side issues, they are not so a total waste of time. I personally have learned alot of information that wasn't 'debian' specific. As for filtering I use elm on my isp to read and filter my mail. With all the debian going to a separate folder. This way I don't have to worry about deleting an email by accident when purging debian mail. Here are some of my filter rules and .forward that I use ~/.elm/filter-rules: # debian rule if (to contains "debian") then save "~/Mail/debian" #last rule - safety rule if (always) leave ~/.forward "|/usr/local/bin/filter -o /dev/null" Brian -- Mechanical Engineering [EMAIL PROTECTED] Purdue University http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~servis -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, DANIEL STRINGFIELD wrote: > I'm not personally thrilled with the high volume, but I wouldn't wan't to > make things not specific to debian (other than things like how to on > Redhat or something) to stop being supported. I think the list serves > well as a LINUX mailing list, for Debian Users. Not a specifically Debian > list for Linux users. I second those sentiments too. As a Linux newbie who chose to run Debian, I have a lot of newbie-type questions which I'm not sure are Unix-related, Linux-related, or specifically Debian-related. I've posted in linux-newbie for various topics but a lot of the replies I received were RedHat or Slackware-specific. That is simply a recipe for frustration for newbie Debians. I was thrilled upon finding this list, one which dealt only with Debian. If it's decided to tighten things up, the powers that be should give thought to a Debian-specific newbie list if this list isn't going to support that function. | Debian GNU/ __ o Regards, |/ / _ _ _ _ _ __ __ .| / /__ / / / \// //_// \ \/ / Randy| // /_/ /_/\/ /___/ /_/\_\ ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) | ...because lockups are for convicts... -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, DANIEL STRINGFIELD wrote: > > I'm not personally thrilled with the high volume, but I wouldn't wan't to > make things not specific to debian (other than things like how to on > Redhat or something) to stop being supported. I think the list serves > well as a LINUX mailing list, for Debian Users. Not a specifically Debian > list for Linux users. > I couldn't agree more to this. After all this is a debian-USER list. Maybe we should consider starting a debian-DIST list, though. The purpose of such a list would be to discuss issues specific to the debian distribution. Just an idea /fax -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > This list has a terribly high volume. More than half of the messages are > non-Debian related (like Ethernet 3com problems) and should, IMHO, belong > to other forums. > > Am I the only one which finds the amount of general PC/Linux/Unix > questions unbearable (in that case, I will unsubscribe) or is it time to > plea for more discipline, such as "Please use only this list for > Debian-specific stuff (like dpkg, dselect, discussions of the upgrade > path to 1.3, etc)"? I'm not personally thrilled with the high volume, but I wouldn't wan't to make things not specific to debian (other than things like how to on Redhat or something) to stop being supported. I think the list serves well as a LINUX mailing list, for Debian Users. Not a specifically Debian list for Linux users. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
> >Am I the only one which finds the amount of general PC/Linux/Unix > >questions unbearable (in that case, I will unsubscribe) or is it time to > >plea for more discipline, such as "Please use only this list for > >Debian-specific stuff (like dpkg, dselect, discussions of the upgrade > >path to 1.3, etc)"? > > While I'm sympathetic to your concern of traffic volume, I also feel that a > "one stop shop" approach is easier for anyone trying to get their questions > answered. It's often the case that you don't really know whether it's > Debian or Linux in general that's at issue. And if you are installing for > the first time, it's likely that you really don't have enough experience to > say one way or the other. This has been my experience, I'm a crusty > veteran of Unix. I know a lot of this info is supposed to be in the FAQs, > but I've had problems that weren't covered, myself. > I'm sympathetic to both arguments here, but tend towards the first because I sometimes find myself blindly deleting hundreds of emails (including some non-Debian important ones) after every weekend, but sometimes read all the mail with interest. What _I_ would like is a nice concise posting regarding setting up a mail filter for pine and other mail progs, posted regularly, so that instead of saying 'I will unsubscribe' and losing possibly important members of the list, people say 'That mail filter sounds easy to set up, I'll do that instead'. Ed -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
At 02:07 PM 6/9/97 +0200, you wrote: > >This list has a terribly high volume. More than half of the messages are >non-Debian related (like Ethernet 3com problems) and should, IMHO, belong >to other forums. > >Am I the only one which finds the amount of general PC/Linux/Unix >questions unbearable (in that case, I will unsubscribe) or is it time to >plea for more discipline, such as "Please use only this list for >Debian-specific stuff (like dpkg, dselect, discussions of the upgrade >path to 1.3, etc)"? While I'm sympathetic to your concern of traffic volume, I also feel that a "one stop shop" approach is easier for anyone trying to get their questions answered. It's often the case that you don't really know whether it's Debian or Linux in general that's at issue. And if you are installing for the first time, it's likely that you really don't have enough experience to say one way or the other. This has been my experience, I'm a crusty veteran of Unix. I know a lot of this info is supposed to be in the FAQs, but I've had problems that weren't covered, myself. And even if we tried to restrict the posts to just Debian, that's not always the right restriction. For example, there has been some resent thread on Lyn and StarOffice. Those were interesting, I'd probably not have heard much about either without being on this list. In short, it's hard to say exactly what will and won't be of interest. I like the some what eclectic feel of the list, though I'd not want much more traffic than we see now. This is the part I'd not want to lose. The one thing posters can do to help is use descriptive subjects. That way I can delete the ones I really don't want to read before even reading. This is, admittedly, my own style of using email, where I tend to delete over 1/2 my mail without ever reading. And perhaps a regular posting, say monthly, going over where to find FAQs etc. -- Dirk Herr-Hoyman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> DANEnet, Connecting Dane County's Communities http://danenet.wicip.org -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
If you want to unsubscribe be my guest. Paul On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > > This list has a terribly high volume. More than half of the messages are > non-Debian related (like Ethernet 3com problems) and should, IMHO, belong > to other forums. > > Am I the only one which finds the amount of general PC/Linux/Unix > questions unbearable (in that case, I will unsubscribe) or is it time to > plea for more discipline, such as "Please use only this list for > Debian-specific stuff (like dpkg, dselect, discussions of the upgrade > path to 1.3, etc)"? > > > > > -- > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] . > Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . > > -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
[META] Use of the list for non-Debian matters
This list has a terribly high volume. More than half of the messages are non-Debian related (like Ethernet 3com problems) and should, IMHO, belong to other forums. Am I the only one which finds the amount of general PC/Linux/Unix questions unbearable (in that case, I will unsubscribe) or is it time to plea for more discipline, such as "Please use only this list for Debian-specific stuff (like dpkg, dselect, discussions of the upgrade path to 1.3, etc)"? -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
