subject:"\[OT\]\: May Day"


On 03.05.2016 16:34, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Tuesday 03 May 2016 14:22:26 Piyavkin wrote:

On 03.05.2016 02:21, Lisi Reisz wrote:

…
So it is all a bit circular!!  But I find the concepts of "International
Workers Day" and "the proletariat" intrinsically unpleasant.  I am in
sympathy with Eric Blair (aka George Orwell).  It is as wrong to murder
someone for being an aristo as it is to murder him for being a peasant.

Oh, my!..


I've sent Hello and best wishes on occasion to fellow people. All that
was about expression of solidarity. And intended to be lean and short,
like: a) have a nice day! b) have a nice day too; c) done. In case
someone may be irritated by relatively irrelevant posts or just not
interested the topic was marked as [OT] for filtering purposes (Subject

: contains : [OT] --> Delete from POP Server).

I've received 2 types of responses:
1. People have sent their best wishes to me in return (mostly in
private, because many are already too terrorized to express their
opinion openly).
2. Some others on the basis of «deep» linguistic analysis have detected
here some presence of Nazi and, out of a blue, bloody intention to
murder (by best wishes, I guess).

What's wrong with you, guys?


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

That was sent off-list and should not have been quoted here.  Presumably Dan
forwarded it to you.


No, the letter have came from list:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/05/msg00138.html


Solidarity?  With whom?  Oh, yes, The Workers.


I've explicitly explained with whom. Twice. It was utterly innocent and 
unoffending. And I'm amazed how you guys found pretext to turn that 
small topic into a flame.


So, working people are now kind of terrorists, huh?


Read the history of the French Revolution.  Or the Stalinist purges.


Lisi, do it yourself, please. French Revolution was bourgeois one. So 
capitalists should pay the bill, I guess.


And what kind of logic is it? So, if colonial Europe had performed all 
those uncountable atrocities all over the world and gave birth to 
Fascism we now should treat Europeans as spawns of evil?




Politics does not belong here,


Yeah, but you do it regularly. Discussing, by example, politcorrect 
forms of addressing audience with proper gender connotations.
I personally have nothing against it or against other touch of OT 
subjects (like movies, personal stories, etc.). There is no human 
interaction without human part in it. The FOSS as itself has significant 
political dimension. Why we shouldn't discuss it?


So, I guess the problem is not in the politics as itself. The problem is 
in intolerance to other's opinion and desire to silence it under any 
ostensible pretexts (politics as a dirty and unmentionable subject). 
Mainstream propaganda encourage the sectarian attitude to neutralize p2p 
communications while they have full control over mass media. So the 
people which opinion differs from PoV of Ministry of Truth should be 
isolated, marginalized, express their views only somewhere in closed 
underground communities and publicly be in shame as some perverts, as if 
that are them who's starting wars, keeping their hands deep in other's 
pockets, buying elections and parliaments, lobbying laws, polluting 
lands, financing military contractors whose hostile actions devastate 
whole regions with results in hundreds of thousands dead and in millions 
displaced as refugees (and doing so they are even pointing fingers at 
century old Stalin, bah!), etc.


The thread was auto-extinguishing by its nature and explicitly marked as 
off-topic. You might easily ignore it if you don't share the opinion, 
you might easily filter it in your mail client. And it would be finished 
in 2 days with a few replies and then be silently removed as outdated 
OT. No, you've found funny linguistic excuses for phony accusations, 
blown the flame about nothing, just to cry in the end «Enough already!» 
Why? Because you fear that other people are… well… not so smart and 
sharp as you are, they may fall for treacherous speeches of some 
tempting snake, and should be protected at any cost. Constant vigilance! 
We're on a mission.


Please, give the people to decide by themselves. People are not stupid. 
If subject rise no interest, it will be ignored,  will die by itself, 
and never be repeated again.



[!] Here I stop and quit all the Nazi, Stalin, innovative politic 
linguistics and all the crap, which I didn't intend to mention at all. 
Please, start your own thread for that. Or follow your own advice and 
stop the insinuations.



but nor do ad hominem attacks.



What attacks? Whom attacking whom? If you feel that I'm attacking you 
(but not your actions), I sincerely apologise and will never do that again.


What you, guys, are even doing in the thread if you believe that wishing 
best each other and expressing solidarity with fellow people means 
divisiveness, call to a murder, and all the horrible things you called 
it? It's ridiculous.




Best

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-03 Thread John Hasler

Piyavkin writes:
> What's wrong with you, guys?

Divisive associations.  "Solidarity", for example, is almost always
directed against some group of perceived enemies.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-03 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Tuesday 03 May 2016 14:22:26 Piyavkin wrote:
> On 03.05.2016 02:21, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > …
> > So it is all a bit circular!!  But I find the concepts of "International
> > Workers Day" and "the proletariat" intrinsically unpleasant.  I am in
> > sympathy with Eric Blair (aka George Orwell).  It is as wrong to murder
> > someone for being an aristo as it is to murder him for being a peasant.
>
> Oh, my!..
>
>
> I've sent Hello and best wishes on occasion to fellow people. All that
> was about expression of solidarity. And intended to be lean and short,
> like: a) have a nice day! b) have a nice day too; c) done. In case
> someone may be irritated by relatively irrelevant posts or just not
> interested the topic was marked as [OT] for filtering purposes (Subject
>
> : contains : [OT] --> Delete from POP Server).
>
> I've received 2 types of responses:
> 1. People have sent their best wishes to me in return (mostly in
> private, because many are already too terrorized to express their
> opinion openly).
> 2. Some others on the basis of «deep» linguistic analysis have detected
> here some presence of Nazi and, out of a blue, bloody intention to
> murder (by best wishes, I guess).
>
> What's wrong with you, guys?
>
>
> Best regards,
> Dmitry Piyavkin

That was sent off-list and should not have been quoted here.  Presumably Dan 
forwarded it to you.

Solidarity?  With whom?  Oh, yes, The Workers.

Read the history of the French Revolution.  Or the Stalinist purges.  

Politics does not belong here, but nor do ad hominem attacks.

Lisi

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-03 Thread Glenn Holmer

On 05/03/2016 08:34 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> Politics does not belong here

+1

Enough already.

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

Re: [OT]: May Day


On 03.05.2016 16:05, John Hasler wrote:

Piyavkin writes:

You're right. I've already sent to Pablo Escobar and to local criminal
lords my letters with apologies. Explaining that since using «bad
words» is being a nazi, we shouldn't call them criminals and parasites
anymore.

Then call them criminals.  The word "parasite* usually refers to people
who have committed no crimes but are *in the speaker's opinion*
parasites.


I do. Please, reread.


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day


On 03.05.2016 02:21, Lisi Reisz wrote:


…
So it is all a bit circular!!  But I find the concepts of "International
Workers Day" and "the proletariat" intrinsically unpleasant.  I am in
sympathy with Eric Blair (aka George Orwell).  It is as wrong to murder
someone for being an aristo as it is to murder him for being a peasant.


Oh, my!..


I've sent Hello and best wishes on occasion to fellow people. All that 
was about expression of solidarity. And intended to be lean and short, 
like: a) have a nice day! b) have a nice day too; c) done. In case 
someone may be irritated by relatively irrelevant posts or just not 
interested the topic was marked as [OT] for filtering purposes (Subject 
: contains : [OT] --> Delete from POP Server).


I've received 2 types of responses:
1. People have sent their best wishes to me in return (mostly in 
private, because many are already too terrorized to express their 
opinion openly).
2. Some others on the basis of «deep» linguistic analysis have detected 
here some presence of Nazi and, out of a blue, bloody intention to 
murder (by best wishes, I guess).


What's wrong with you, guys?


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-03 Thread John Hasler

Piyavkin writes:
> You're right. I've already sent to Pablo Escobar and to local criminal
> lords my letters with apologies. Explaining that since using «bad
> words» is being a nazi, we shouldn't call them criminals and parasites
> anymore.

Then call them criminals.  The word "parasite* usually refers to people
who have committed no crimes but are *in the speaker's opinion*
parasites.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day


On 03.05.2016 01:50, Michael Lange wrote:

On Mon, 02 May 2016 14:52:26 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:


Michael Lange writes:

I would by the way strongly request to dismiss the use of the word
"parasite" when speaking about human beings, since - speaking frankly
- this sounds a lot like nazi-speech

So does any classification of people into "them" and "us".

To some extent, but I feel classifying people into "us humans" and "them
animals" is even a lot worse.

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

No one wants war.
-- Kirk, "Errand of Mercy", stardate 3201.7

.


You're right. I've already sent to Pablo Escobar and to local criminal 
lords my letters with apologies. Explaining that since using «bad words» 
is being a nazi, we shouldn't call them criminals and parasites anymore. 
Now they should be named «socially handicapable alternative 
entrepreneurs». Someone of them has sent me back a sample sachet with a 
diacetylmorphine, and now I've got to go. Gonna to be busy for a while.



Michael, let's call Voldemort — Voldemort and do not profane serious 
things with silly word playing games.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc



For your information:

/American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition/
parasite —
a. One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others 
without making any useful return.

b. One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.

/Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition/
parasite —
2. a person who habitually lives at the expense of others; sponger
3. (formerly) a sycophant

/Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary/
parasite —
2. a person who receives support or advantage from another without 
giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality 
of others.
3. (esp. in ancient Greece) a person receiving free meals in return for 
amusing conversation or flattery.



The meaning «An organism that lives and feeds on or in an organism of a 
different species and causes harm to its host» in most dictionaries 
marked as special term of Biology. Which is probably derivative from 
traditional uses cited above (because biology is a relatively young 
science). And we even didn't discussed any biological subject to do such 
leaps in interpretations, we talked literally about those who «receives 
from others without giving any useful or proper return».



You may write to the language authorities and explain them your theory 
about Nazi-speech and how to use English properly.



Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread Lisi Reisz

Hi, Dan,

I have come off list because I find all the politics of this very unpleasant.  
But I liked your response (inaccurate as it has turned out to be!!!) and felt 
that it deserved a reply.

On Sunday 01 May 2016 18:58:57 Dan Hitt wrote:
> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Lisi Reisz  wrote:
> > On Sunday 01 May 2016 18:13:38 Dan Hitt wrote:
> >> (And wasn't May day an American idea originally, which
> >> our ruling class wanted to tone down?)
> >
> > I am speechless!!
> >
> > "The earliest May Day celebrations appeared in pre-Christian times, with
> > the Floralia, festival of Flora"  Etc.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day
> >
> >
> > Lisi
>
> hahahahaha, my bad for sure Lisi!!
>
> I should have said "Labor Day" instead of "May Day", though.
>
> Because in fact May 1 was chosen as the date for Labor Day (or
> International Worker's Day) because of the murder of four striking workers
> May 4, 1887 in Chicago.

Not according to Wikipedia.  Ah!  I see.  It is more complicated than that.  
You confused me by confusing Labor Day and International Workers Day.  See my 
trail below!!!  One even has to distinguish between Labor Day and Labour 
Day!!

So it is all a bit circular!!  But I find the concepts of "International 
Workers Day" and "the proletariat" intrinsically unpleasant.  I am in 
sympathy with Eric Blair (aka George Orwell).  It is as wrong to murder 
someone for being an aristo as it is to murder him for being a peasant.

Lisi
---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Day

History[edit]
Beginning in the late 19th century, as the trade union and labor movements 
grew, different groups of trade unionists chose a variety of days on which to 
celebrate labor. In the United States and Canada, a September holiday, called 
Labor or Labour Day, was first proposed in the 1880s. In 1882, Matthew 
Maguire, a machinist, first proposed a Labor Day holiday while serving as 
secretary of the Central Labor Union (CLU) of New York.[2] Some maintain that 
Peter J. McGuire of the American Federation of Labor put forward the first 
proposal in May 1882,[1] after witnessing the annual labour festival held in 
Toronto, Canada.[3] In 1887 Oregon became the first state of the United 
States to make Labor Day an official public holiday. By the time it became an 
official federal holiday in 1894, thirty U.S. states officially celebrated 
Labor Day.[1] Thus by 1887 in North America, Labor Day was an established, 
official holiday.[4]

Following the deaths of workers at the hands of United States Army and United 
States Marshals Service during the Pullman Strike of 1894, the United States 
Congress unanimously voted to approve legislation to make Labor Day a 
national holiday and President Grover Cleveland signed it into law six days 
after the end of the strike.[5] Cleveland supported the creation of the 
national holiday in an attempt to shore up support among trade unions 
following the Pullman Strike.[6] 
**
The date of May 1 (an ancient European holiday known as May Day) was an 
alternative date, celebrated then (and now) as International Workers Day, but 
President Cleveland was concerned that observance of Labor Day on May 1 would 
encourage Haymarket-style protests and would strengthen socialist and 
anarchist movements that, though distinct from one another, had rallied to 
commemorate the Haymarket Affair in International Workers' Day.[6][7]
All U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and the United States territories 
have made Labor Day a statutory holiday.
8

BUT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workers%27_Day
International Workers' Day, also known as Labour Day in some places, is a 
celebration of labourers and the working classes that is promoted by the 
international labour movement, socialists, communists and anarchists and 
occurs every year on May Day, 1 May, an European spring holiday since the 
late 19th and early 20th century.[1][2] The date was chosen for International 
Workers' Day by the Second International, a pan-national organization of 
socialist and communist political parties, to commemorate the Haymarket 
affair, which occurred in Chicago on 4 May 1886.[2]

 The 1904 International Socialist Conference in Amsterdam, the Sixth 
Conference of the Second International, called on "all Social Democratic 
Party organisations and trade unions of all countries to demonstrate 
energetically on the First of May for the legal establishment of the 8-hour 
day, for the class demands of the proletariat, and for universal peace."[3]
Being a traditional European spring celebration, May Day is a national public 
holiday in many countries, but in only some of those countries is it 
celebrated specifically as "Labour Day" or "International Workers' Day". Some 
countries celebrate a Labour Day on other dates significant to them, such as 
the

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread Michael Lange

On Mon, 02 May 2016 14:52:26 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Michael Lange writes:
> > I would by the way strongly request to dismiss the use of the word
> > "parasite" when speaking about human beings, since - speaking frankly
> > - this sounds a lot like nazi-speech
> 
> So does any classification of people into "them" and "us".

To some extent, but I feel classifying people into "us humans" and "them
animals" is even a lot worse.

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

No one wants war.
-- Kirk, "Errand of Mercy", stardate 3201.7

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread John Hasler

Piyavkin writes:
> Why you say such about those noble and worthy gentlemen?

Well, of course, the epithet applies only to politicians in the other
parties.  The ones in mine are all noble and worthy gentlemen selflessly
dedicated to the Cause.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread John Hasler

Michael Lange writes:
> I would by the way strongly request to dismiss the use of the word
> "parasite" when speaking about human beings, since - speaking frankly
> - this sounds a lot like nazi-speech

So does any classification of people into "them" and "us".
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Piyavkin wrote:
> Have you said «Karl Marx»?!.. Oh, no!.. Lisi will get you! )

I quote him as sincere contributor to political and economical theory.
Everybody, who pays Value Added Tax, pays for a thing invented by Marx:
The Added Value which - according to his theory - goes into the pockets
of the capital owner. (Thus the consumer pays a tax on it.)

Charlie was not the bad guy in the history of real existing socialism.
He had no power to defend. So he needed no oppression mechanisms.

> What's the sports, by the way?

Programming in C. :))
(A relative of Snooker and Chess. It can be quite exhausting.)

> As to hardship and boredom:

It's what gets paid according to classical protestant work ethics.
(According to the bible it is the penalty for eating apples.)

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread Michael Lange

On Mon, 2 May 2016 20:32:17 +0300
Piyavkin  wrote:

> And by mentioned «professional parasites and criminals» I meant in the 
> first place exactly those people who live by criminal, fraud,
> deception, and literally at other's expense. Which is by definition a
> description of lumpen-proletariat (declassified) stratum.

One could however very well argue that your above definition applies
much better to a certain kind of economically very successful people than
to what you call "lumpen-proletariat".
I would by the way strongly request to dismiss the use of the word
"parasite" when speaking about human beings, since  - speaking frankly -
this sounds a lot like nazi-speech, though I of course don't want to
insinuate that anything like that was intended by you. Maybe it is just
that here in germany my ears are more sensitive to this kind of speech.

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Respect is a rational process
-- McCoy, "The Galileo Seven", stardate 2822.3

Re: [OT]: May Day


On 02.05.2016 20:48, John Hasler wrote:

Piyavkin writes:

But, I wonder, /whom/ exactly did you bear in mind when you triggered
«politics detection» alert at words «professional parasites»? )
...Ouch!

Politicians, most likely.  All of them.  It's not true, of course.  Many
of them are amateur parasites.


No way, John! Why you say such about those noble and worthy gentlemen?
Lisi may not think like that!


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day

On 02.05.2016 19:05, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Haines Brown wrote:

Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that FOSS is crypto-socialist.

Piyavkin wrote:

No, but it is new growing relations of production.

It's in no way crypto, but quite near to the vision of Karl Marx in the
19th century. He expected it to happen for classic economy after
socialism succeeded and evolved into true communism.

Google found me a nice summary in german language:

http://stattkapitalismus.blogsport.de/2008/11/12/665jeder-nach-seinen-faehigkeiten-jedem-nach-seinen-beduerfnissen/
which is obviously by a person not aware of free software.
It quotes Marx' book "Das Kapital", 1867:
"Stellen wir uns endlich, zur Abwechslung, einen Verein freier Menschen
vor, ..."
which i translate as:
"Let us imagine finally, just for a change, a club of free humans, who
work with commonly used means of production and self-confidently spend
their many individual powers of work as a united work effort for society.
[...] The result of the club's work is a product of society.
In part it serves in turn as means of production. Another part is
consumed by the members as subsistence."

He did not imagine highly valuable objects which can be copied at
nearly no cost and can be used by affordable means. He only predicts that
the relation between production and consumption will change but then goes
on to describe a non-communist structure of work merits and right to
consume.
In our world, even Linus Torvalds gets more from GNU/Linux than he gave.

Marx also did not imagine that a (from his view) ideal society would emerge
on top of capitalism rather than replacing it.

Have you said «Karl Marx»?!.. Oh, no!.. Lisi will get you! )

If be serious, such changes are going on not only in software industry.
And I don't think it'll be finished even in the near future which may be
surprising in the end. That is a long and incremental process. But it is
a huge subject to discuss in an OT thread in a mail list. Such subjects
should be debated in form of articles in academic manner, I believe [but
try to rise the subject in an economics community, and their political
police will get you too].
Though it may be interesting for you to look also at the Schumpeter's
theory of development. He's usually considered as an opponent to Marx,
but their theories in fact pretty complimentary.

In real life i do not get my food for free. Housing is expensive.
Even the preconditions for linuxing cost monthly money.
But during my life there were only a few months of what i'd call work.
I earn my keep by selling myself doing my favorite sports.
Nevertheless i am aware that i am swimming as grease drop on a watery soup
of hardship and boredom.

Why don't you consider prof sport activity as a labour? Especially if
you earn by that. What's the sports, by the way?

As to hardship and boredom: first is an objective condition, second is a
subjective attitude and, in my view, should be avoided as deadly sin
whatever situation you happened to be in. Life is too damn short to be
bored.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Best wishes to you too!

Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread John Hasler

Piyavkin writes:
> But, I wonder, /whom/ exactly did you bear in mind when you triggered
> «politics detection» alert at words «professional parasites»? )
> ...Ouch!

Politicians, most likely.  All of them.  It's not true, of course.  Many
of them are amateur parasites.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day


On 02.05.2016 17:16, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Monday 02 May 2016 15:07:29 Piyavkin wrote:

professional
parasites

OUCH!  Can we keep politics out of this - be it far left or far right?  This
list is not the place.

Lisi



Hi, Lisi!

Actually, I'm not intended to elaborate the o-topic any further beyond 
the Worker's Day congratulations.


And by mentioned «professional parasites and criminals» I meant in the 
first place exactly those people who live by criminal, fraud, deception, 
and literally at other's expense. Which is by definition a description 
of lumpen-proletariat (declassified) stratum.


But, I wonder, /whom/ exactly did you bear in mind when you triggered 
«politics detection» alert at words «professional parasites»? ) ...Ouch!



Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Haines Brown wrote:
> > Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that FOSS is crypto-socialist.

Piyavkin wrote:
> No, but it is new growing relations of production.

It's in no way crypto, but quite near to the vision of Karl Marx in the
19th century. He expected it to happen for classic economy after
socialism succeeded and evolved into true communism.

Google found me a nice summary in german language:

Marx also did not imagine that a (from his view) ideal society would emerge
on top of capitalism rather than replacing it.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [OT]: May Day


On 01.05.2016 21:27, Haines Brown wrote:
Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that FOSS is crypto-socialist. Haines 


No, but it is new growing relations of production.


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-02 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Monday 02 May 2016 15:07:29 Piyavkin wrote:
> professional
> parasites

OUCH!  Can we keep politics out of this - be it far left or far right?  This 
list is not the place.

Lisi

Re: [OT]: May Day


On 01.05.2016 18:39, Nate Bargmann wrote:

* On 2016 01 May 08:23 -0500, John Hasler wrote:

Hans Vogelsberger writes:

Why workers only? There are other humans, too.

Class struggle.

I struggled to pay attention in social studies class way back in grade
school 40+ years ago.  Does that count?

;-)

Happy May Day from the workers paradise of a muddy farm somewhere in
northern Kansas.

- Nate



And special Best Wishes come to — Nate from Kansas!

[a soft but energetic banjo music slowly fade in in the background]


Thanks, Nate! )


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day


On 01.05.2016 15:26, Hans Vogelsberger wrote:

Am Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:49:06 +0300
schrieb Piyavkin :


Congratulations with International Worker's Day to all the working
(in FOSS industry and at all) people! )
Have a nice day!


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin


Why workers only? There are other humans, too.



Hans, I've actually addressed all good people, since wast majority of 
the humankind (up to 99%, I guess, except classes of professional 
parasites and criminals) lives by working and serving other's in some 
useful social roles. And actually do not counterpose but complement each 
other. I've consciously said «working people», including here all labour 
classes.


Yeah, I understand that it sounds funny and the humankind doesn't even 
hear me, because I have no my own mass media (and the access to the 
carefully cultivated and formed mass consciousness). I've just sent my 
best wishes on the occasion to those who can hear me, can accept it and 
bounce back. End of story.



And, yeah, I have absolutely nothing at all against any goddess of 
flowers, especially if some come my way in a nice sunny May day.




Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-01 Thread Michael Lange

On Sun, 01 May 2016 16:29:40 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Lisi writes:
> > But New Zealand and the Isle of Man (sorry, I have been spelling it
> > wrongly) both antedate Finland in granting full suffrage, and New
> > Zealand's was unrestricted - but of course it was not independent.  So
> > we either have to allow both Finland and New Zealand, when New Zealand
> > wins, or disallow both, on the grounds that they were not independent.
> 
> Besides, if you allow them despite not being fully sovereign you have to
> allow Wyoming, which beats them both.

And let's not forget the picturesque Pitcairn islands, which beat
Wyoming by some 30 years ;)

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

... The prejudices people feel about each other disappear when they get
to know each other.
-- Kirk, "Elaan of Troyius", stardate 4372.5

Re: [OT]: May Day

Lisi writes:
> But New Zealand and the Isle of Man (sorry, I have been spelling it
> wrongly) both antedate Finland in granting full suffrage, and New
> Zealand's was unrestricted - but of course it was not independent.  So
> we either have to allow both Finland and New Zealand, when New Zealand
> wins, or disallow both, on the grounds that they were not independent.

Besides, if you allow them despite not being fully sovereign you have to
allow Wyoming, which beats them both.

Also, Finland became an independent nation with full suffrage before New
Zealand did.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day

Lisi Resiz wrote:
> oldest continuous democratic government!

John Hasler wrote:
> Right.  It's actually Finland, of course.

> Within europe, i bet on San Marino...

If you ignore the PFS period.

> ...and Iceland.

If you ignore being owned by Denmark (and the fact that it is not within
Europe).

> Finland was a colony of Sweden and/or Russia during most of the last
> few hundred years.

Finland was the first nation to grant full poltical rights to all women
and to all races.  It can be argued that no nation in which women cannot
vote is a democracy.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-01 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Sunday 01 May 2016 19:14:59 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > oldest continuous democratic government!
>
> John Hasler wrote:
> > Right.  It's actually Finland, of course.
>
> Within europe, i bet on San Marino and Iceland.

San Marino wins by a long chalk!  I forgot about it as a separate state.  The 
Isle of Mann can rival Iceland (beats it if you accept its records.)
>
> (Finland was a colony of Sweden and/or Russia during most of
>  the last few hundred years.)

Yes, I over-simplified and left Sweden out.

Lisi

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-01 Thread Haines Brown

On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 02:26:18PM +0200, Hans Vogelsberger wrote:
> Am Sat, 30 Apr 2016 21:49:06 +0300
> schrieb Piyavkin :
> 
> > Congratulations with International Worker's Day to all the working
> > (in FOSS industry and at all) people! )
> > Have a nice day!
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Dmitry Piyavkin
> > 
> 
> Why workers only? There are other humans, too.

Obviously Dmitry refers to working-class internationalism, not the
ancient Roman May Day celebration in honor of the goddess of flowers.

Although a gross simplification, workers don't own means of production,
and so their gains depend on social solidarity. He apparently sees FOSS
as an example of where cooperation pays off.

The owners of the means of production gain instead from competition or
monopoly. I suppose they would argue that it is competition between
owners of proprietary software that best explains its development. They
are naturally hostile to FOSS.

Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that FOSS is crypto-socialist.

Haines

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-01 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Lisi Resiz wrote:
> > oldest continuous democratic government!

John Hasler wrote:
> Right.  It's actually Finland, of course.

Within europe, i bet on San Marino and Iceland.

(Finland was a colony of Sweden and/or Russia during most of
 the last few hundred years.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [OT]: May Day

Lisi writes:
> USA, you are a very YOUNG nation.  You haven't got the oldest anything
> (except Californian Redwoods, which antedate the USA.)  Yes, there are
> younger nations and peoples - but there are an awful lot of older
> ones.

For certain definitions of "nation".

> I am still reeling from having been told by this list that the USA had the 
> oldest continuous democratic government!

Right.  It's actually Finland, of course.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-01 Thread Dan Hitt

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Lisi Reisz  wrote:
> On Sunday 01 May 2016 18:13:38 Dan Hitt wrote:
>> (And wasn't May day an American idea originally, which
>> our ruling class wanted to tone down?)
>
> I am speechless!!
>
> "The earliest May Day celebrations appeared in pre-Christian times, with the
> Floralia, festival of Flora, the Roman goddess of flowers, held on April 27
> during the Roman Republic era, and with the Walpurgis Night celebrations of
> the Germanic countries. It is also associated with the Gaelic Beltane, most
> commonly held on April 30. The day was a traditional summer holiday in many
> pre-Christian European pagan cultures. While February 1 was the first day of
> spring, May 1 was the first day of summer; hence, the summer solstice on June
> 25 (now June 21) was Midsummer."  Etc.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day
>
> USA, you are a very YOUNG nation.  You haven't got the oldest anything (except
> Californian Redwoods, which antedate the USA.)  Yes, there are younger
> nations and peoples - but there are an awful lot of older ones.
>
> (I am still reeling from having been told by this list that the USA had the
> oldest continuous democratic government!)
>
> Lisi
>

hahahahaha, my bad for sure Lisi!!

I should have said "Labor Day" instead of "May Day", though.

Because in fact May 1 was chosen as the date for Labor Day (or International
Worker's Day) because of the murder of four striking workers May 4, 1887
in Chicago.

Natural spring didn't originate here, and of course the idea of the holiness
of labor was much earlier (when the Creator labored for 6 days and rested
on the seventh).

Thanks for pointing out my bug though!!

dan

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-01 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Sunday 01 May 2016 18:13:38 Dan Hitt wrote:
> (And wasn't May day an American idea originally, which
> our ruling class wanted to tone down?)

I am speechless!!

"The earliest May Day celebrations appeared in pre-Christian times, with the 
Floralia, festival of Flora, the Roman goddess of flowers, held on April 27 
during the Roman Republic era, and with the Walpurgis Night celebrations of 
the Germanic countries. It is also associated with the Gaelic Beltane, most 
commonly held on April 30. The day was a traditional summer holiday in many 
pre-Christian European pagan cultures. While February 1 was the first day of 
spring, May 1 was the first day of summer; hence, the summer solstice on June 
25 (now June 21) was Midsummer."  Etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day

USA, you are a very YOUNG nation.  You haven't got the oldest anything (except 
Californian Redwoods, which antedate the USA.)  Yes, there are younger 
nations and peoples - but there are an awful lot of older ones.

(I am still reeling from having been told by this list that the USA had the 
oldest continuous democratic government!)

Lisi

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-01 Thread Dan Hitt

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 10:05 AM, John Hasler  wrote:
> Nate writes:
>> I struggled to pay attention in social studies class way back in grade
>> school 40+ years ago.  Does that count?
>
> Sure.  As long as you collect no rents and own no capital you can be a
> member of the proletariat.
> --
> John Hasler
> jhas...@newsguy.com
> Elmwood, WI USA
>

Don't want to get OT on OT, but shouldn't the converse be true instead?

That is, you're one with the workers if you or seriously aspire to work;
not having capital should not put you in the working class, and having
capital should not put you out.  (Most people have cars after all, or other
forms of working capital.)

Anyhow, hoping everybody has a good May day and a productive year writing
good free code.  (And wasn't May day an American idea originally, which
our ruling class wanted to tone down?)

dan

Re: [OT]: May Day

Nate writes:
> I struggled to pay attention in social studies class way back in grade
> school 40+ years ago.  Does that count?

Sure.  As long as you collect no rents and own no capital you can be a
member of the proletariat.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT]: May Day

2016-05-01 Thread Nate Bargmann

* On 2016 01 May 08:23 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Hans Vogelsberger writes:
> > Why workers only? There are other humans, too.
> 
> Class struggle.

I struggled to pay attention in social studies class way back in grade
school 40+ years ago.  Does that count?

;-)

Happy May Day from the workers paradise of a muddy farm somewhere in
northern Kansas.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us

Re: [OT]: May Day