Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 05:00:27PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: If we got this system up and running, Debian would be the *easiest* OS install anywhere! Debian would take over the planet! Ah, if only it were that easy. When I think about the possibility of introducing Linux to, say, my mom, it's not the install I worry about because I can install it myself and then (thanks to Debian) a future (re)installation is unnecessary. I don't worry about hardware configuration because, again, it's mostly a one-time thing and it's something I can set up for someone myself. What keeps me from introducing Linux to my mom, and will for a while, is the inevitable But Tom, can I use this greeting card program?, Tom, how do I run this .exe file my friend sent me?, Tom, this 'gimp' thing is hard and doesn't run my Photoshop plugins, I want Photoshop back., Tom, how come this ICQ can't do all the stuff it could do in Windows??, Tom, how come I can't use insert name of Windows-only browser plugin?! and on and on and on. -- Tom Without the rich heart, wealth is an ugly beggar. -Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
What keeps me from introducing Linux to my mom, and will for a while, is the inevitable But Tom, can I use this greeting card program?, Tom, how do I run this .exe file my friend sent me?, Tom, this 'gimp' thing is hard and doesn't run my Photoshop plugins, I want Photoshop back., Tom, how come this ICQ can't do all the stuff it could do in Windows??, Tom, how come I can't use insert name of Windows-only browser plugin?! and on and on and on. well thanks to the efforts of wine ( and if you can afford it/desire it win4lin or vmware supposed make huge difference I haven't used either though ) in conjuction with the ever growing hopefully app database that just recently went online.--this is getting better all the timeand eventually ( until that is native linux apps become more sophisticated albiet many already are ) depending on ones needs most all if not all will no longer be necessary is it that easy back to your questioncourse not but its an enticing option besides some of those apps you mention IMO are already plenty sufficient especially gimp and icq clones are steadily increasing in valuable features lee -===
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
D-Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:24:10PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: [suggestion for community-wide sharing of config info and experience] Well, I understood that wat he actually wanted, was to create a kind of automatic install utility. This all sounds like a nice idea, but consider that we already have most of that. There are projects like LinuxDoc, NewbieDoc, and others that provide lots of good information about how to install and setup various portions of a system. Also just listen on debian-user for a while and you will learn alot about different hardware configurations and how to get them to work (or which ones just don't work well). Maybe the problem is, that there is too much documentation. Furthermore, the documentation has been written by expert users, who do not always have a feeling about what newbies find trivial and what not (this is not meant to criticise. I am amazed, that so many experts are willing to spend their time in writing accurate documentation for the Linux community, and the documentation is certainly indispensible). As a result, for a non-expert user it is very hard to keep up. What I imagine would be a helpful addition to the existing documentation, is a database of simple installation sheets, that do not really explain things, but just contain a step-wise list of actions to perform the installation of the part (no more than one-two sheets), supplemented with config files. For explanation, at most pointers to the existing howto's should be added. The database should be organized according to hardware parts (motherboard, network connection type, peripheral bus (IDE/SCSI) etc.) and software versions (e.g. Debian version, kernel version). When a user buys a new part, she can query the database and obtain (hopefully) one or a few installation sheets that describe how the new part can be installed in a computer and installation that is at least similar to what she has. If she is lucky, she does exactly what one of the installation sheets tell her to do, and she ends up with a working system. In that case she can attach a worked for me too note to the installation sheet in the database, so that it may gain confidence from other users. If she has to modify steps or config files, she can attach a note tot the installation sheet that describes the modifications and the reason that they had to be made). If it turned out, that for some reason, none of the obtained installation sheets worked for her, she has to investigate why not, and then she has to find out by herself how to perform a successful installation. Afterwards, she can write up what she has done, and contribute this as an installation sheet to the database. To contribute an installation sheet into the database would pay back. It is always wise to write down for yourself how you installed things. When a database like the one proposed exists, you are more urged to do so, because you also help the Debian community. Moreover, the burden to manage your own documentation has been taken over by the database manager. Regards, Paul Huygen
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On 24.06.01 at 22:32 Mark Garland wrote: So--my experience is that the installation of a basic working Debian system is not too hard. Configuring peripherals is hard! Yes, I'd agree, that was my experience as a debian newbie also. The basic system installation is friendly, X and Gnome take some RTFM, but peripherals...arrrgh! For example, after I'd installed slink, I found out I'd need to upgrade the kernel to use some peripherals. That could be pre-diagnosed and help offered. It can otherwise be quite baffling and a reason to leave debian slumbering. It would be interesting to know how many people tried debian, then left it due to such difficulties. I guess nobody knows that. So, I'd say, a little more help with X and Gnome installation is required and a lot more guidance with peripherals. I'm not fond of plug-n-play, and wouldn't go that far in taking control over a system. But it would be good to guide, then prompt users with the options they have for installing a given hardware component. It would all be optional of course. BTW, is comparing OS's on their ease of installation useful outside the Linux world? I don't think many users of Windows have ever installed the OS. True, but once people have used Windows, they have used many GUI setup programs and if debian installed with ease they might well try it. Marcus
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Jack, In my last mail i battered your idea a bit (may-b too hard), so time to type some constructive things. Perhaps we should look in this direction: 1. Get a simple installer to get linux running (as generic as possible, but including a webbrowser like lynx) 2. Guide the user on it's way to the internet (ppp+pap is almost standard) 3. Connet to the web and collect/compile config files from a jet-to-create repository My thinking: Point 1: In most cases it is easy to get Linux up and running. Linux may not support all of your hardware but id shoud work in text mode. Point 2: Getting on-line will be the most difficult part. But there is good hope here ppp+pap is almost standard for normal modems and Cable / ADSL use PPPoE or Ethernet for the most part. For these all one needs to to is get DHCP working and youre ready-to-go. Point 3: Collecting and Compiling config files. I'll explain using 2 examples. First: Compiling X config * Identify your monitor (mode lines mostly) * Identify graphics board (resolutions, refreshrates, colors, 'weird' options) * Identify keyboard and mouse * Compile all bits to a single X Config file Compiling is better than having a zillion config files for say a G400 and several monitors. Lots better to seperate em. This config database could be stored at XFree86.org (They at least know a lot about hardware) Second: Getting a config file * Simple stuff like the keyboard map for your type of keyboard I would not go for a real p2p network. It has loads of difficulties that are yet unsolved (How to find it w.o. a central starting point, users going on and off-line, The possibilities of sabotage, i can go on for a while here) Also a nice web interface could be created so you can get your config files in advance (by using a computer with internet connection) if you know your hardware. There will be a lot of thinking to do before anything like this (or your original p2p idea) can work at all. But it has potential. Yours, Nico de Haer - Original Message - From: Jack Pryne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 10:57 PM Subject: Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?) No, Windows was just an example of an OS that people might want to migrate *away* from. There's no reason why someone running Linux, indeed Debian, could not run the same application. Even existing users of Debian could benefit from this by getting support from the community. More vital is the contribution existing users would make by offering their smoothly running system information as a reference in guiding new users to stability and functionality under Debian! Believe me, I'd never require anybody to be using MS products. ;) Jack _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Jack Pryne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm totally new to the list, and I'm not even running Debian yet, but I have an idea that I'd like to bounce off the group: Consider that one of the major reasons that people don't use any operating system besides windows is because they need to *install* it. Most machines are delivered with Windows already running. Installing a new operating system can be a major hurdle, even for someone with computer experience. What if installation *and* maintainence could be managed by a single simple program, freeing the novice user from mountains of research, tweaking, and testing? Please feel free to write the code. If you have ideas about how to improve our installation, you might want to direct them to the debian-boot mailing list, who collectively maintain the installer; a new installer is in development for the next-but-one release. On the maintenance side, I reckon Debian is doing pretty well, although hardware detection is certainly a weakness. True, while many pieces of hardware may, as of yet, be unsupported by Debian, such a system would be able to report precisely *which* pieces of unsupported hardware were the *most* common amongst it's users, thus providing vital feedback to the Debian developer community about what drivers need to be developed in order to continue the impetus that is Debian. Bear in mind that most of this stuff needs to go to the kernel developers, not Debian ... -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:24:10PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: | Greetings all, | | I'm totally new to the list, and I'm not even running Debian yet, but I have | an idea that I'd like to bounce off the group: [suggestion for community-wide sharing of config info and experience] This all sounds like a nice idea, but consider that we already have most of that. There are projects like LinuxDoc, NewbieDoc, and others that provide lots of good information about how to install and setup various portions of a system. Also just listen on debian-user for a while and you will learn alot about different hardware configurations and how to get them to work (or which ones just don't work well). It would certainly be convenient for non-techies to have a single GUI application that will run their computer (and make breakfast wink) but all the info that is needed is already present. Install Debian for yourself and you will see that the installer, while not GUI based, is quite easy to use and works well. (I managed to crash the RH7.0 installer a few times myself) The package management system works really well and will (for the most part) keep a working system working (if you don't take the jump and dist-upgrade to testing or even unstable you will have no trouble at all). The main technical hurdle with your suggested program is the auto-detection of hardware. Some (many?) things just can't be auto-detected, and even then they may not report themselves correctly. In my experiences it is best to have a person report what the hardware is and how they want it to work. Sure this isn't trivial for a non-geek to do, but Unix isn't really designed for non-geeks, it is designed to work wink. The best solution would be to have Debian pre-installed (such as MaD dUCK's proposed method) by a geek who knows what they are doing. In addition, users can join this list and tap into a vast supply of knowledge and experience and learn more than they ever thought possible about setting up a working (and useful!) system. I think your idea is nice, but is a technofix for a social problem. The existing documentation efforts and debian-user already solve that problem for those that want it solved. -D
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Jack Pryne wrote:
[cut]
Imagine a P2P network of Debian users who *all* shared their system
configuration information, thus comprising a consensus of proper
configuration for various hardware compositions, (e.g. All users with the
AsusV7 motherboard and Matrox G400 graphics card would share information to
devise the best configuration for that hardware.)
Once a user-base is established from existing Debian users, new users could
download this small P2P application. Upon running it for the first time, it
would set about making a partition used expressly for Debian, and start
downloading the Debian operating system. Once the basics were in place,
hardware self-diagnostics would begin, and searches across the P2P network
would reveal other users with similar hardware setups. Then, actual
configuration would take place automatically. This new user would recieve
'advice' (from other users with identical or similar hardware) about which
drivers to download and where to place them. Properly planned, such an
application might well automate the installation and maintainence process!
There's some merit in this. Maybe you could eliminate some of the more
difficult and scary parts, like self-diagnostics, creating the partition
on the fly, etc., at least at first. I.e., do what you can with the
infrastructure that already exists.
What I'm thinking:
(1) Set up a project (SourceForge?) whose goal is to create .debs for
many common peripherals. The debs might include kernel modules, and
things like modeline settings for monitors, magicfilters for printers,
on and on. You really need some Real Debian Developers involved here.
Note that these debs would have *many* dependencies on debs in the main
Debian distribution. Hmmm, I guess they really should be task
packages. Like task-epson740. Some thought needs to go into what extra
prebuilt kernels, if any, would be needed.
(Think about the excellent linuxprinting.org, and ask What if it was
Debian-oriented and What if it pulled in all kinds of peripherals?).
Of course, this part could also be done by Real Debian Developers as a
part of the Debian project. Or one Real Debian Developer sponsoring a
lot of other folks. They might not want their mirrors clogged up with
all of this, though.
(2) The little Windows app might be one to scan the registry and see
what all Windows recognizes as being on the system, and write that to a
file. (I mean, presumably you've got all your stuff working on Windows
already, right?) Need a Real Windows Developer here.
(3) Have a cgi app on your website that uploads the file and uses some
searching voodoo to find a best match for debs. Need a Real
CGI/{Perl|Python|C} Developer here. The user might need to do some
reasoning/research to figure out which selected debs actually are
appropriate.
(4) The user installs a basic Debian system, then uses the selected debs
to do the correct remaining voodoo for his peripherals.
Steps 1 is the really large task requiring huge Debian experience and
expertise. Whether it's usefully doable at all is an open question. 2
should be really easy; 3 might not be too bad.
Enough handwaving for you? :-)
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
This is true, most Windows users haven't bothered to (re)install their OS. not really... i find i need to format and reinstall windows every few months. it becomes unuseable by then. i also find that people who dont do this, start out with a nice fresh new computer, and by the end of 5 months, are left with something that crashes literaly every day, has a corrupted registery, and other bad things. this in turn leads to them actually using the thing less.
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
From: Jonathan D. Proulx [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Except for maintainence, you're reading the best tech support I've ever gotten, bar none. Most stuff gets atleast some response within an hour, 27x7. I pay through the nose to get 4h support tht's usually not as good :) I really can't say enough about the quality of this mailing list! You obviously haven't suffered the complete lack of response, or responses that completely misunderstood the question, that I've experienced. Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hmm. A little worrisome: http://www.junkbusters.com/cgi-bin/privacy http://www.anonymizer.com/snoop.cgi )
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 07:04:19PM -0400, Daniel Barclay wrote: : From: Jonathan D. Proulx [EMAIL PROTECTED] : ... : Except for maintainence, you're reading the best tech support I've : ever gotten, bar none. Most stuff gets atleast some response within : an hour, 27x7. I pay through the nose to get 4h support tht's usually : not as good :) : : I really can't say enough about the quality of this mailing list! : :You obviously haven't suffered the complete lack of response, or responses :that completely misunderstood the question, that I've experienced. Guess not. There's been some misses in the past 3 years, but many more direct hits and alot of insight I wouldn't have even thought to ask for. Hope you're luck turns around, -Jon
Re: [users] Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 11:07:24PM -0400, Jonathan D. Proulx wrote: On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 06:42:39PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: :machine take care of itself, without ever having to worry about missing :DLL's, or corrupt registry files. That's the whole idea behind this proposed :system. Though I take your point, I encourage you to get Debian up and running so you can see for yourself what types of configuration issues there are. There is nothing even analogous to registry corruption in an Un*x like system. And through Debian's wonderful package/dependency management system you're never missing shared libraries (the analog to a DLL). Actually once you have a basic system installed (which can be tricky), managing it can be as braindead as you want. run gnome-apt two clicks to update evrything you have installed to the latest revision, run a search on available packages pick the new shiny whizbang app you want, it'll grab whatever else you need to make it work. You are missing the point, installing software and it's dependencies is one hurdle debian has cleared. But there is much more than that. There is getting your video card working, your monitor sync set right, your sound and peripherals working correctly. Things that I know can be very difficult to an average to new user of linux. I have installed debian countless times, as well as other distro's and I know for sure that debian has close to the worst hardware detection around, this does not phase me because I can manage to get things working and once they are, debian is a breeze. From your post you seem to be under the idea that there is nothing to impove with debian because of apt-get. -Jon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Nick Jennings
Re: [users] Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
:: Nick Jennings writes: From your post you seem to be under the idea that there is nothing to impove with debian because of apt-get. I'd just like to add that APT has already been ported so it works with Conectiva RPMs, and RPM-based distributions will soon be using it. Details of how well it works on one or other system aside, this means that, although Debian has the merit of developing APT for the first time, APT will not necessarily be an advantage of Debian over others anymore. And hardware detection and configuration is being worked on by others for quite some time now... (But of course, Debian still has the greatest quality-assurance process around!) (Just my 2 centavos...) J. --
Re: [users] Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 08:01:07PM -0700, Nick Jennings wrote: : You are missing the point, installing software and it's dependencies is : one hurdle debian has cleared. But there is much more than that. There : is getting your video card working, your monitor sync set right, your : sound and peripherals working correctly. No argument here, most of this pain is install time rather than maintenance related. If the install time detection were better, simpler, whatever that would also cover maintenence (like a new video card). : Things that I know can be very difficult to an average to new user : of linux. I have installed debian : countless times, as well as other distro's and I know for sure that : debian has close to the worst hardware detection around, this does not : phase me because I can manage to get things working and once they are, : debian is a breeze. That's my point, once it's working you don't have to worry about where to get the right libraries, or bit rot in some mammoth machine managed registry file. : From your post you seem to be under the idea that there is nothing : to impove with debian because of apt-get. I must have misrepresented myself, apt-get rocks for software management, but there are other things and there's always room for improvement. -Jon
An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Greetings all, I'm totally new to the list, and I'm not even running Debian yet, but I have an idea that I'd like to bounce off the group: Consider that one of the major reasons that people don't use any operating system besides windows is because they need to *install* it. Most machines are delivered with Windows already running. Installing a new operating system can be a major hurdle, even for someone with computer experience. What if installation *and* maintainence could be managed by a single simple program, freeing the novice user from mountains of research, tweaking, and testing? Imagine a P2P network of Debian users who *all* shared their system configuration information, thus comprising a consensus of proper configuration for various hardware compositions, (e.g. All users with the AsusV7 motherboard and Matrox G400 graphics card would share information to devise the best configuration for that hardware.) Once a user-base is established from existing Debian users, new users could download this small P2P application. Upon running it for the first time, it would set about making a partition used expressly for Debian, and start downloading the Debian operating system. Once the basics were in place, hardware self-diagnostics would begin, and searches across the P2P network would reveal other users with similar hardware setups. Then, actual configuration would take place automatically. This new user would recieve 'advice' (from other users with identical or similar hardware) about which drivers to download and where to place them. Properly planned, such an application might well automate the installation and maintainence process! True, while many pieces of hardware may, as of yet, be unsupported by Debian, such a system would be able to report precisely *which* pieces of unsupported hardware were the *most* common amongst it's users, thus providing vital feedback to the Debian developer community about what drivers need to be developed in order to continue the impetus that is Debian. Security Note: Of course, there will always be anti-social types who would seek to sabotage such a system by developing a rogue version of the P2P application which provides bogus information. This must be circumvented by requiring a *majority* agreement for configuration advice by the P2P network. It seems implausible that such a rogue version could outnumber the authentic article. I envision Debian becoming an OS that is not only powerful, but also painless and simple, becoming much more than a mere thorn in the paw of the lion that is Windows. I feel very strongly about the free software movement, which is why I'm discussing this here first, not that I'm certain this an original, (or even feasible)idea. I'd like to hear any feedback you might have, be it positive or negative. Is this: (a) A bad idea that will never work. (b) A good idea that probably won't work. (c) A great idea! Let's get to work! One last thing: I'm open to suggestions for naming such a P2P client. Something which expresses community support and freedom from technical issues... Thanks for listening, and my apologies for being so verbose. Jack Pryne _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:24:10PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: One last thing: I'm open to suggestions for naming such a P2P client. Something which expresses community support and freedom from technical issues... Since you're asking: Debian/GNU Bob Now you can put the stark fist of removal at work for YOU! Cheers, Joost
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
This is horrible!!! try this new slogan: Debian Install: Windows 9x required. Please contact Micrsoft and PAY to get your free software running NO WAY !! - Original Message - From: Jack Pryne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 10:38 PM Subject: Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?) Thanks for pointing out that omission in my initial post, Nico. I had intended this system to be installed on a system already running some kind of OS. One of the major benefits of this system is that a windows user could, theoretically, download the P2P app, run it, and sit back while it tappe dinto the community and installed Debian on a new partition, configured it, and was soon all ready to go. Obviously this idea would be much less feasible for a brand new computer system. But think about it: one-button conversion from Windows to Debian! Jack Pryne The idea is nice but it will be almost impossible to implement cuz you need to configure the system *before* you can connect to your p2p network so you need a working kernel, working modem/nic. next u need working internet thus working ppp and so on. youre more than half way home already. it will not pay off. but keep thinking... yours, Nico de Haer _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Do you mean pre-install Debian? That would be great! But it's still a ways off. Besides, we still need to convert the helpless masses of existing Win-doze users who are afraid to even *try* to install a new OS, even if it is more powerful and free. Jack From: G.LeeJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jack Pryne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:57:03 -0700 Jack Pryne wrote: Thanks for pointing out that omission in my initial post, Nico. I had intended this system to be installed on a system already running some kind of OS. One of the major benefits of this system is that a windows user could, theoretically, download the P2P app, run it, and sit back while it tappe dinto the community and installed Debian on a new partition, configured it, and was soon all ready to go. Obviously this idea would be much less feasible for a brand new computer system. But think about it: one-button conversion from Windows to Debian! not if you got some vendors to pre-install :) g lee - _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
No, Windows was just an example of an OS that people might want to migrate *away* from. There's no reason why someone running Linux, indeed Debian, could not run the same application. Even existing users of Debian could benefit from this by getting support from the community. More vital is the contribution existing users would make by offering their smoothly running system information as a reference in guiding new users to stability and functionality under Debian! Believe me, I'd never require anybody to be using MS products. ;) Jack _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Thanks for pointing out that omission in my initial post, Nico. I had intended this system to be installed on a system already running some kind of OS. One of the major benefits of this system is that a windows user could, theoretically, download the P2P app, run it, and sit back while it tappe dinto the community and installed Debian on a new partition, configured it, and was soon all ready to go. Obviously this idea would be much less feasible for a brand new computer system. But think about it: one-button conversion from Windows to Debian! Jack Pryne The idea is nice but it will be almost impossible to implement cuz you need to configure the system *before* you can connect to your p2p network so you need a working kernel, working modem/nic. next u need working internet thus working ppp and so on. youre more than half way home already. it will not pay off. but keep thinking... yours, Nico de Haer _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Thanks for your feedback, Brad, I'm glad you mention this. My theory is that this system could run self-diagnostics to determine, to whatever degree, what make/model of hardware it is working on. In cases where the exact model could not be determined, whatever info can be gleaned would comprise a new profile. For example, diagnostics reveal that the sound card is *not* a sound blaster, or a turtle beach. So it is called soundcard X, and the system looks for other users in the community which have a soundcard that matches the test results of this card. If matches are found, the system transfers drivers and sound support files from the operational systems to the new user. If no matches are found, near matches arte found, and trials are tested to arrive at a workable solution. I know I'm getting a bit far-out here, but I feel sure that such a system has the potential to revolutionize computing. Jack Pryne From: Brad Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jack Pryne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:12:33 -0500 Howdy, One of the problems I see with this is that the average user, even yours truly, doesn't know every piece of hardware on their computer. In fact, the individual that buys the pre-packaged deal doesn't even typically know what hardware comes with it, only what type of hardware. For instance, I know I have a motherboard which supports 600 MHZ of processing speed with a PIII, but that's about all I know about my motherboard. My monitor was more difficult for me to configure, as I had to dig up the paperwork I'd luckily saved for it, since it's a generic monitor. My NIC has been even more difficult to configure, simply because I can't quite figure out what it is. I think you see the point. Great idea though. You should still go through with it, as it will still help all who don't run into the problem I listed. - Brad _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 01:57:55PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: Believe me, I'd never require anybody to be using MS products. ;) Why does this sound so damn funny? ;-) _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ^^^ Cheers, Joost
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 10:47:28PM +0200, nico de haer wrote: This is horrible!!! try this new slogan: Debian Install: Windows 9x required. Please contact Micrsoft and PAY to get your free software running NO WAY !! A MS Client doesn't mean there wouldn't be a linux client. It could be in java, or even perl/tk, and run on most platforms. I think it's a good idea to some extent. A centeral repository of user submitted config rules for their hardware and misc linux setup, categoriezed by topics such as hardware, servers, the X Window System... and subcategorized within down to specifics. Kind of like how linux.com has a whole config tweaking sections that gives tips and hints and shares information others have discovered to help new users set their system up and get it running nice. Except this new system would actually do the work as well. It could get very complex though, every system setup is very different, and therefore things configured within that system vary. -- Nick Jennings
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
You've got the idea, Nick! This would be so great! Another neat aspect of such a system is that it works *only* with a free OS. If there was a similar system to install/maintain Windows, then Windows piracy would proliferate out of control! (hmm) Nick Jennings wrote: A MS Client doesn't mean there wouldn't be a linux client. It could be in java, or even perl/tk, and run on most platforms. I think it's a good idea to some extent. A centeral repository of user submitted config rules for their hardware and misc linux setup, categoriezed by topics such as hardware, servers, the X Window System... and subcategorized within down to specifics. Kind of like how linux.com has a whole config tweaking sections that gives tips and hints and shares information others have discovered to help new users set their system up and get it running nice. Except this new system would actually do the work as well. It could get very complex though, every system setup is very different, and therefore things configured within that system vary. -- Nick Jennings _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On 24.06.01 at 12:24 Jack Pryne wrote: Imagine a P2P network of Debian users who *all* shared their system configuration information... Sounds basically like a good idea to me. It also sounds like a tall order, but why not, if the security issue can be handled :-) One thing I definately agree on is that Debian could do with easier installation, or at least more user guidance. Personally I decided on Debian after trying Suse and Red Hat first. However, I've been following the Linux distro rankings in one computer magazine (CHIP, Germany), and Debian is rated lowest amongst 7 others. I think this is mainly due to lacking user guidance during setup and package installation. I've not installed potato from scratch myself, but I guess those ratings are based on potato. What is the general opinion? That Debian is not for users who cannot deal with it the way setup/maintenance is designed now, or that it is a goal to also include users unfamiliar with the command line someday? I believe Suse and Mandrake are following the latter path? Just curious. Marcus
Re: [users] Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
also sprach Joost Kooij (on Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:42:19PM +0200): Debian/GNU Bob Now you can put the stark fist of removal at work for YOU! hehe, and when you mistype your password three times, it'll prompt you to change it. believe it or not, Micro$oft Bob did that. martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^.*|tr * mailto:; [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fermentation fault. coors dumped.
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
What about Silent Waters or Silencer --- Joost Kooij [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:24:10PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: One last thing: I'm open to suggestions for naming such a P2P client. Something which expresses community support and freedom from technical issues... Since you're asking: Debian/GNU Bob Now you can put the stark fist of removal at work for YOU! Cheers, Joost -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Jarth Berilcosm Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Marcus wrote: Sounds basically like a good idea to me. It also sounds like a tall order, but why not, if the security issue can be handled :-) One thing I definately agree on is that Debian could do with easier installation, or at least more user guidance. Personally I decided on Debian after trying Suse and Red Hat first. However, I've been following the Linux distro rankings in one computer magazine (CHIP, Germany), and Debian is rated lowest amongst 7 others. I think this is mainly due to lacking user guidance during setup and package installation. If we got this system up and running, Debian would be the *easiest* OS install anywhere! Debian would take over the planet! What is the general opinion? That Debian is not for users who cannot deal with it the way setup/maintenance is designed now, or that it is a goal to also include users unfamiliar with the command line someday? What attracts *me* to Debian is it's fundamental basis of community and goodwill. This kind of system quickly becomes unattractive to any commercial OS, as it will facilitate not only ease of installation, but also copying, and it would (ideally) reduce/automate the need for tech support. Basically I feel this could be the best chance that the open-source community has to both empower and popularize itself before Microsoft follows through with it's .Net domination bid. I see this idea as having the potential to be the David that topples Goliath. How does Debian-David sound for a name? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Personally I decided on Debian after trying Suse and Red Hat first. Same here. However, I've been following the Linux distro rankings in one computer magazine (CHIP, Germany), and Debian is rated lowest amongst 7 others. I think this is mainly due to lacking user guidance during setup and package installation. I've not installed potato from scratch myself, but I guess those ratings are based on potato. What is the general opinion? That Debian is not for users who cannot deal with it the way setup/maintenance is designed now, or that it is a goal to also include users unfamiliar with the command line someday? I believe Suse and Mandrake are following the latter path? to do less IMHO is bad marketingits 'nice' to have a power system for power users..and maybe the intention wasn't/isn't to gain complete dominance of the desktop for 'average' user market..but hey why not its certainly worthy which is why I switched a few years ago ( from windows for many reasons ).. I don't know if its a combo of using 2.4.5/debian/non-ximian but i've noticed speed increases in programs that before ( mozilla is prob worst offender ) were so clunky ( at time running RH7.1 where i noticed much less speed in that app ) that they were ludicrous..j Lee -===
Re: [users] Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
i just wanted to add my two pfennige. see, the reason that debian rocks is that it does not impose configuration tools on you like suse and redhat. it does provide a very cool package system, but everything is under the control of the user and vi. that's the beauty. now looking at how i frequently already disagree with the formatting of config files contained in the packages, or the default settings for an application, i couldn't possibly imagine running such a distributed system. don't get me wrong, i am all up for slamming Micro$oft's how to add .Net to your old software to keep it cutting edge braindeadness, but the idea of having other users influence my system is disturbing. granted, the debian-cracks wouldn't use it, at least not for configuration, but that means that such a database contains configs by novices, which, unless very carefully monitored by experts, could result in an inferno. i am just thinking... instead, pre-installed debian is a good idea, because once running, apt-get is too easy to use. in addition, have workshops! i, for one, am about to organize a monthly linux meet at a local computer cluster, encouraging people in papers and by word of mouth to come and play around. it'll be debian, of course, and i'll have a couple of cool dudes along to help me out, but i think something like this to get people excited, and then the offer to pre-install debian for them (even though that's the best exercise) for something low like $20 maybe (or not - depending on how i can swing it), would be the best, don't you think? i will make some computers available at the cluster for debian test-installations - for people to come and try it themselves. it's still in preparation, but it'll go live in july or august... martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^.*|tr * mailto:; [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- as i was going up the stair i met a man who wasn't there. he wasn't there again today. i wish, i wish he'd stay away. --hughes mearns
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Hi, My initial reaction was a shudder, basicly 'cus I teak everything to within an inch of it's life and hate the limitations of GUI interface for system configuration (you can only stick in so many options). But, upon reflection something like this could have a place, but it's a huge undertaking. I'm just finishing up a one floppy installer and even with the assumptions I can make (fast ethernet LAN, 4G HD, and I know the right network configs), it's been a piece of work to make something that will fit from a PPro 200Mhz with 64M of RAM and 4G HD to Dual PIII Xeon 1.7GHz with 2G of RAM and 80G HD, then all the NIC's, and I've basicly left sound to the user. It's a pretty dirty hack, but even that took some doing. To device something that will do this from any OS, on any machine from a 386 to P4 or Itanium (not to mention all the other architectures Debian supports), with a variety of network connections (LAN, dialup. ADSL, Cable), well I hope patience is one of your virtues :) -Jon
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
Debian's already on top. Pollution like RedHat is not required. Mike -- Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED] With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925 pgp0MHnUN7OAO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [users] Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
From: MaD dUCK [EMAIL PROTECTED] now looking at how i frequently already disagree with the formatting of config files contained in the packages, or the default settings for an application, i couldn't possibly imagine running such a distributed system. The system I propose would greatly benefit by users such as you, who provide a shining example of a finely tuned system, without allowing the community to alter your machine. Yours would be a 'reference-only' participant, a beacon of sorts. A leader! Less exeprienced users, those who would rather let the community maintain their system for them, would take a more passive role, referring to you, (in addition to each other,) for information as to how to best configure their system. Believe me, the vast majority of users would rather just let the machine take care of itself, without ever having to worry about missing DLL's, or corrupt registry files. That's the whole idea behind this proposed system. but that means that such a database contains configs by novices, which, unless very carefully monitored by experts, could result in an inferno. This would not happen if a suitable base of reference were built up (composed of experienced users like you) before the initial launch to the public. To rephrase, power users like you would be the shepards. Passive users would be the flock. But being a shepard would not involve any more work than you are already doing; it would just entail keeping your system in good working order. BTW, thanks everyone for all the feedback I'm getting on this idea; it really helps to flesh out the details and clarify the vision. Keep your ideas coming, whether your feedback is positive or negative. I'd like to address both. Thanks again, Jack _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
From: Jonathan D. Proulx [EMAIL PROTECTED] My initial reaction was a shudder, basicly 'cus I teak everything to within an inch of it's life and hate the limitations of GUI interface for system configuration (you can only stick in so many options). It's a pretty dirty hack, but even that took some doing. To device something that will do this from any OS, on any machine from a 386 to P4 or Itanium (not to mention all the other architectures Debian supports), with a variety of network connections (LAN, dialup. ADSL, Cable), well I hope patience is one of your virtues :) Sounds like you have some valuable insight into the task at hand! But consider the fact that this system I propose would not be trying to cram infinite permutations on a disk. Instead, it would create a communal reference library, holding information on the configurations of many systems all over the world. What would be distributed is analagous to a free membership card which entitles the bearer to free advice, maintainence, and/or tech support. After all, if you were a confused newbie, wouldn't you want the shoemaker elves to come and fix your computer while you slept? ;) Jack _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
At 06:48 PM 6/24/01 -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: ...After all, if you were a confused newbie, wouldn't you want the shoemaker elves to come and fix your computer while you slept? ;) That would depend entirely on my fear of the nasty goblins
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
How about some clueless user testimony about Debian? I am completely new to Linux and *nix in general (though I did play with an IBM RS/6000 at work once). I'm so clueless, I didn't even know that Debian was a difficult Linux distribution. So, strictly out of curiosity (could a $6.00 set of CD's really give you a decent OS?), I installed Debian potato (2.2r3) a month ago on my home machine following the instructions at www.debian.org and at linux.com (http://Linux.com/learn/installguide/debian). I have to say I was pleasantly surprised that things worked out as advertised--for the basic installation. Got X and Gnome running, even. I soon realized that printers, sound cards, modems, and digitizing pads are not considered crucial parts of the system (at least for these installation guides). Took me a while to figure out how to get these working, but I eventually found the info I needed on the Internet. Someone who was less persistent than I was wouldn't have done it, I don't think. And judging from the messages on this list, these peripherals cause more problems than anything else. So--my experience is that the installation of a basic working Debian system is not too hard. Configuring peripherals is hard! BTW, is comparing OS's on their ease of installation useful outside the Linux world? I don't think many users of Windows have ever installed the OS. Now back to lurking-- Mark Garland Tallahassee, Florida - Original Message - From: Marcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?) [snip] One thing I definately agree on is that Debian could do with easier installation, or at least more user guidance. Personally I decided on Debian after trying Suse and Red Hat first. However, I've been following the Linux distro rankings in one computer magazine (CHIP, Germany), and Debian is rated lowest amongst 7 others. I think this is mainly due to lacking user guidance during setup and package installation. I've not installed potato from scratch myself, but I guess those ratings are based on potato. What is the general opinion? That Debian is not for users who cannot deal with it the way setup/maintenance is designed now, or that it is a goal to also include users unfamiliar with the command line someday? I believe Suse and Mandrake are following the latter path? NetZero Platinum No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month! http://www.netzero.net
Re: [users] Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 06:42:39PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: :machine take care of itself, without ever having to worry about missing :DLL's, or corrupt registry files. That's the whole idea behind this proposed :system. Though I take your point, I encourage you to get Debian up and running so you can see for yourself what types of configuration issues there are. There is nothing even analogous to registry corruption in an Un*x like system. And through Debian's wonderful package/dependency management system you're never missing shared libraries (the analog to a DLL). Actually once you have a basic system installed (which can be tricky), managing it can be as braindead as you want. run gnome-apt two clicks to update evrything you have installed to the latest revision, run a search on available packages pick the new shiny whizbang app you want, it'll grab whatever else you need to make it work. -Jon
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
From: Mark Garland [EMAIL PROTECTED] So--my experience is that the installation of a basic working Debian system is not too hard. Configuring peripherals is hard! Exactly why users would benefit from a pool of reference which contains, in all liklihood, many users who are running Debian with the same (printer/soundcard/video card) as you! BTW, is comparing OS's on their ease of installation useful outside the Linux world? I don't think many users of Windows have ever installed the OS. This is true, most Windows users haven't bothered to (re)install their OS. But this proposal is about more than installation. It's also about maintainence, and installing new hardware. It's about letting novices benefit from the experience of experts, with computers doing all the work! Jack Pryne _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: An *idea* that *might* put Debian on top (?)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 06:48:49PM -0700, Jack Pryne wrote: :Sounds like you have some valuable insight into the task at hand! But :consider the fact that this system I propose would not be trying to cram :infinite permutations on a disk. Instead, it would create a communal :reference library, holding information on the configurations of many systems :all over the world. Well I didn't cram it all onto a disk, the disk boots up and the real working pieces are mounted over NFS... I say your proposal is much more difficult. I'm working in a comparitively well defined environemnt and most of the important (to me that is) stuff doesn't change. How do you determine who's system is a good model and who's is just a bad idea (after you've matched hardware etc..)? :What would be distributed is analagous to a free :membership card which entitles the bearer to free advice, maintainence, :and/or tech support. Except for maintainence, you're reading the best tech support I've ever gotten, bar none. Most stuff gets atleast some response within an hour, 27x7. I pay through the nose to get 4h support tht's usually not as good :) I really can't say enough about the quality of this mailing list! :After all, if you were a confused newbie, wouldn't you :want the shoemaker elves to come and fix your computer while you slept? ;) I'm with the goblin guy :) aside from my do it yourself ways, the security implications of this are scary. Not to say absolutly insolvable, but far from trivial. -Jon
