Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-17 Thread Bob Nielsen
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Britton wrote:

> Linux really isn't right for
> gutless corporate weasles with little knowledge about what they
> are doing and impatient closed-minded bosses.

Not only Linux fits that model, of course.  Ah, once again I am
glad I chose for early retirement.  I just need to be reminded
occasionally.

Bob

---
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Tucson, AZ  AMPRnet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.primenet.com/~nielsen/


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-17 Thread Britton

There may be some small validity to it.  In LJ, even that guy who put all
the alpha cpus together over 100 mbps ethernet, debugging the code for the
alphas along the way, in order to render the water for the movie
'Titanic', said 'The satisfaction in this success actually made up for the
stress incurred in risking one's job and career'.  In the EE department of
our school there is a new professsor who has made big waves (and some
devoted friends) by stripping out a bunch of Win95 systems from the labs
he is responsible for and replacing them with Linux systems.  People
whined incessantly while we got accounts set up, printing and netscape
working, etc.  At first all they did on the systems was login quake
password quake, but I notice that in recent days xpilot has come to
predominate (following the traditional substance over style evolutionary
pattern which almost always favors Linux).  Still, the amount of heat he
took for the operation was considerable, and it probably had a negative
impact overall on his student reviews (with high standard deviation of
course, as there are a number of people who approve completely).  All in
all then, I have to agree that the article has a point, though the tone
with which they expressed it was disgusting.  Linux really isn't right for
gutless corporate weasles with little knowledge about what they
are doing and impatient closed-minded bosses.

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Ralph Winslow wrote:

> George Bonser wrote:
> > 
> > Agreed, cancel all subscriptions to ZD magazines.  Badmouthing Linux
> > could be a career limiting move for an editor.
> 
> And as Bugs Bunny would say - "What a maroon!".
> 
> > 
> > On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Ian Keith Setford wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > Yo-
> > >
> > > I received this and couldn't believe this!  What an irresponsible piece of
> > > pro-Microsoft propaganda.  Ziff-Davis has sunk to a new low.
> > >
> > > -Ian
> > >
> > > btw, pardon my french
> > >
> > > -- Forwarded message --
> > > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:15:02 -0500 (EST)
> > > From: Jesse Berst's AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: Team AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Subject: Fired for Linux? / Win98 Now / Hot Products
> > >
> > > __Berst Alert
> > >   COULD YOU GET FIRED FOR CHOOSING LINUX?
> > >
> > > http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt0216ba/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1774.html
> > >
> > >  Linux fanatics cite the freeware operating system
> > >  as a viable alternative to Windows NT. Sure it has
> > >  technical merits, but can it pass the all-important
> > >  "cover your backside" test? Seems to me that championing
> > >  Linux could be a CLM (career-limiting move) at many
> > >  large corporations. For your own sake, keep this
> > >  in mind when reading the glowing articles about its
> > >  growing popularity. Links, stats and other career-protecting
> > >  information await you at the site.
> > >
> > > ~~~
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
> > > Trouble?  e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > George Bonser
> > If NT is the answer, you didn't understand the question. (NOTE: Stolen sig)
> > http://www.debian.org
> > Debian/GNU Linux ... the maintainable operating system.
> > 
> > --
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> 
> -- 
> -
> Ralph Winslow   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Mary bought a pair of skates
> upon the ice to frisk
> now wasn't that a crazy way
> her sweet young *?
> 
> 
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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-17 Thread Tyson Dowd
On 17-Feb-1998, David Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Just to raise a chuckle and let you see how much ignorance is out there, 
> this was posted by someone calling themselves, I believe, a unix sys 
> admin, in the "dos" Onenet conference (FirstClass conf system) last September
> 
> : Linux is the kiddie version of UNIX. It is a small subset of real UNIX
> : (AIX, HPUX,UTX,SOLARIS).  It actually runs under DOS. It doesn't
> : support multi threaded processes, is a 16 bit OS and can be hung quite
> : easily. Unless you're a teen ager with dreams of being a real
> : programmer some day I would avoid it.
> 

The funniest bit is that this is a nearly perfect description of Windows 3.1.


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-17 Thread David Wright
On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Keith Beattie wrote:

> Yea, I see what you mean but I'm a little concerned that Linux, and to
> a larger extent free software, will be damaged by people taking a
> "religious" attitude towards their software and not tolerating any
> criticism.  I'm not accusing you (or anyone) of that, but I think that
> there might be presumption that us "enthusiasts" have that tendency and
> hence will not be taken seriously.

Just to raise a chuckle and let you see how much ignorance is out there, 
this was posted by someone calling themselves, I believe, a unix sys 
admin, in the "dos" Onenet conference (FirstClass conf system) last September

: Linux is the kiddie version of UNIX. It is a small subset of real UNIX
: (AIX, HPUX,UTX,SOLARIS).  It actually runs under DOS. It doesn't
: support multi threaded processes, is a 16 bit OS and can be hung quite
: easily. Unless you're a teen ager with dreams of being a real
: programmer some day I would avoid it.

Cheers,

--
David Wright, Open University, Earth Science Department, Milton Keynes MK7 6AA
U.K.  email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  tel: +44 1908 653 739  fax: +44 1908 655 151


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-17 Thread Joost Kooij
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Wojciech Zabolotny wrote:

>   Hi all!
> 
> I've just send a comment to Jesse Berst, the author of the whole mess, so
> I think, that it makes sens to send a Cc to debian-users. 
> ===
[snip]

Hi, 

It seems like he is not adding any more reactions to the forum. Too bad. I
also sent some words, but I haven't seen them appear anywhere on the site.

Here's my "artwork":

One job that I had in the past where running Linux was a problem was a
place where motivation was generally not very high. I'm not really sad
about not working there anymore.

On the other hand, the place I work at now, there are a lot of people who
use Linux or FreeBSD. These people are all very knowledgable and motivated
because they like what they do and like to do what they are good at.

 Anybody risking to get fired because of Linux I can only say to: "go for
it!" Things will only get much better.

Now about some factual errors in the original article:
 - Linux is not only used as a webserver, it also beats NT as a
fileserver. That is in "Microsoft networking." But you don't see that
advertised on the web very often. You can run an entire LAN of Windows95
clients served by a Linux server posing as a NT server for file- and
printserving and authentication. (Of course, the windows95 clients would
need a Pentium while the Linux server would do fine on a 486 or even 386.)
The Linux solution is faster, more stable and you don't need to pay for
per user licences. Get this service from a Linux VAR/Consultant and your
total cost of ownership will stay way below a native NT based solution (NT
needs much more maintenance after being set up.)
 - Linux has many fine applications that you can get support for. Linux
users can get StarOffice 4.0 for free if for personal use. But it can also
be bought as a commercial product. Why assume that Star Division won't
give support in that case? BTW it's a real nice competitor for Microsoft
Office.

Joost

Oh, about your optional survey: my "586/pentium" is in fact also a "unix
workstation". But I couldn't get the form to understand that.



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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-17 Thread Wojciech Zabolotny
Hi all!

I've just send a comment to Jesse Berst, the author of the whole mess, so
I think, that it makes sens to send a Cc to debian-users. 
===
"I've chosen Linux and I'm not afraid about my, and its future"

I'm working on Warsaw University of Technology, and I'm dealing with
digital processing of biomedical signals.
I have written some programs for on-line acquisition and processing of
such signals, which are used in labs and hospitals.

For my work I have used DOS, and later MS Windows, until
I finally moved to Linux.
The reasons were:
1) Reliability - It appeared that Linux is much more stable then MS
Windows.
2) Possibility of obtaining almost ANY information about "how does it
work" - just from the source code or it's author. It is very important,
when something doesn't work an I don't why.
3) Support
You heve written "there's no single company behind Linux. No single source
of support."
I agree with this sentence. And that's why I have chosen Linux.
There are many source of support and it's much better.
The company may always stop supporting of any of its products
(there were such cases...). And then I stay without the source code, and
without any chance to improve or fix it.
The Linux source code is widely available, so it will be improved as long,
as there are people interested in it.
I tried to use the so called "support" of some commercial software
companies (I wouldn't like to mention their names),
as a registred user of their products.
Sometimes I was sending them an exact bug report, and didn't received even
a simple "Thank you". No chance for any "workaround suggestion". It seemed
to me that it's me who is supporting the software manufacturer as a "beta
tester".
Whenever I experience any problems with Linux, it is enough to 
send the posting to the mailing list or news group to obtain help
from some "sources of support". And as a "final instance" I have the
source code...
4) Of course the costs. Linux is free, so I can legally prepare the
computer system considering only costs of the hardware.

The only problem I can see is that "some" companies, beeing afraid of
Linux, are trying to force hardware vendors to hide architecture
specification, limiting possibilities of writing device drivers for free
operating systems. Of course I mean the infamous "I2O SIG" initiative...

With best regards
Wojtek Zabolotny
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> > > -- Forwarded message --
> > > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:15:02 -0500 (EST)
> > > From: Jesse Berst's AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: Team AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Subject: Fired for Linux? / Win98 Now / Hot Products
> > > 
> > > __Berst Alert
> > >   COULD YOU GET FIRED FOR CHOOSING LINUX?
> > > 
> > >
> http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt0216ba/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1774.htm
> l
> > > 
> > >  Linux fanatics cite the freeware operating system
> > >  as a viable alternative to Windows NT. Sure it has
> > >  technical merits, but can it pass the all-important
> > >  "cover your backside" test? Seems to me that championing
> > >  Linux could be a CLM (career-limiting move) at many
> > >  large corporations. For your own sake, keep this
> > >  in mind when reading the glowing articles about its
> > >  growing popularity. Links, stats and other career-protecting
> > >  information await you at the site.
> > > 
> > > ~~~


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-17 Thread Keith Beattie
George Bonser wrote:
> 
> 
> You are, of course correct, but we should give them some idea of how
> many of their subscribers they have offended ;)

Yea, I see what you mean but I'm a little concerned that Linux, and to
a larger extent free software, will be damaged by people taking a
"religious" attitude towards their software and not tolerating any
criticism.  I'm not accusing you (or anyone) of that, but I think that
there might be presumption that us "enthusiasts" have that tendency and
hence will not be taken seriously.

In fairness, I think that the essence of the point he raises is quite
valid: How can a business take seriously software that is not
supported by a commercial entity?  Given the speed at which people
(managers, business, etc.) tend to point fingers when a problem arises
rather than depend on their own ability to solve it, this is a
legitimate concern.  Of course, we all know that these concerns are
being addressed (with perhaps superior solutions), so his suggestion
that Linux would be a poor choice in such a situation is unfounded.
Hopefully he and his editor are figuring that out by now based on all
the very credible "talkbacks" submitted.  (Perhaps they're just
counting the hits their web site is receiving because of it. :)

Overall, I think the software industry could be on the verge of some
*very* big changes if freely available software successfully makes it
out of it's "adolescence".

Keith


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread Dave Mallery
hi

i suggest you go to his 'talk back' button on the web page
and let him know your thoughts.

the list of postings was already about a mile long and very negative...

that's what i did

dave


-=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- 

Dave Mallery, K5EN
po box 520; ramah nm  87321

running Debian GNU/Linux."Free at last"



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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread Mike Miller
http://www.80s.com/cgi-bin/valley.cgi?url=http://www.zdnet.com/
anchordesk/story/story_1774.html>


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread Art Lemasters
 I'm a newbie with LINUX, but I will blow my horn about
something related for today.  I know my propaganda (flames
off-list from former political opponents, please).  Notice how
the ZD editor said "backside" in the line, "but can it pass the
all-important 'cover your backside' test?"  The concern
with one's "backside" could say something about the
competition (incompetence=treachery?), could it not?  I
suggest you use this in your most tactful (and tactical)
written rebuttals to other magazines.  ...tell you what.  I'll
write one, myself.

Art Lemasters, who is writing in MicroGrep as he loads
a larger Debian LINUX partition.

On 16 Feb 98 at 13:03, debian-user@lists.debian.org wrote:
> You are, of course correct, but we should give them some idea of how
> many of their subscribers they have offended ;)
> 
> 
> On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Keith Beattie wrote:
> 
> > George Bonser wrote:
> > > 
> > > Agreed, cancel all subscriptions to ZD magazines.  Badmouthing Linux
> > > could be a career limiting move for an editor.
> > > 
> > 
> > Well, if Linux is ever going to establish itself as more than a
> > "hobbie OS", it (the Linux community and the free software community
> > in general) needs to be able to gracefully withstand a lot more heat
> > than that article dishes out.
> > 
> > Keith
> > 
> > 
> 
> George Bonser 
> If NT is the answer, you didn't understand the question. (NOTE: Stolen sig)
> http://www.debian.org
> Debian/GNU Linux ... the maintainable operating system.
> 
> 
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> 
> 


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread Ian Perry
Career limiting move ?
I think not...
The company I work for chose Linux because :
1.  It works
2.  Its reliable
3.  It does not require HUGE amounts of resources to function.
4.  MOST IMPORTANTLY !!!
You can get support from people who use it, and know what they are 
talking
about !!!

Ian

--
> From: George Bonser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Ian Keith Setford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?
> Date: Tuesday, 17 February 1998 5:09
> 
> 
> Agreed, cancel all subscriptions to ZD magazines.  Badmouthing Linux
> could be a career limiting move for an editor.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Ian Keith Setford wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Yo-
> > 
> > I received this and couldn't believe this!  What an irresponsible piece
of
> > pro-Microsoft propaganda.  Ziff-Davis has sunk to a new low.
> > 
> > -Ian
> > 
> > btw, pardon my french
> > 
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:15:02 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Jesse Berst's AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Team AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Fired for Linux? / Win98 Now / Hot Products
> > 
> > __Berst Alert
> >   COULD YOU GET FIRED FOR CHOOSING LINUX?
> > 
> >
http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt0216ba/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1774.htm
l
> > 
> >  Linux fanatics cite the freeware operating system
> >  as a viable alternative to Windows NT. Sure it has
> >  technical merits, but can it pass the all-important
> >  "cover your backside" test? Seems to me that championing
> >  Linux could be a CLM (career-limiting move) at many
> >  large corporations. For your own sake, keep this
> >  in mind when reading the glowing articles about its
> >  growing popularity. Links, stats and other career-protecting
> >  information await you at the site.
> > 
> > ~~~
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] . 
> > Trouble?  e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> George Bonser 
> If NT is the answer, you didn't understand the question. (NOTE: Stolen
sig)
> http://www.debian.org
> Debian/GNU Linux ... the maintainable operating system.
> 
> 
> --
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to
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Re[2]: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread Bob Bernstein
Keith Beattie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well, if Linux is ever going to establish itself as more than a
> "hobbie OS", it (the Linux community and the free software community
> in general) needs to be able to gracefully withstand a lot more heat
> than that article dishes out.

In particular the myth that a "single source of support" is a _good_ thing
needs to be dispelled. More often than not this means being shackled to one
vendor, and possibly left out in the cold completely if and when that vendor
goes under.

Also, "heat" is one thing, but disinformation is another. The author of this
article proved himself woefully ignorant on several scores: he only mentioned
the RedHat and Caldera distributions, and implied that one had to spend $50 to
get "good" Linux. He also seems completely unaware that tech support for Linux
can be purchased, if a company feels the need for that sort of thing.

Finally I would submit that it has long since been the case that Linux is
*not* a "hobbie OS," used only geeks and X-Files fans. There is a _tremendous_
amount of commercial c/c++ development going on right now with Linux as the
platform of choice.


-
Bob Bernstein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
at
Esmond, R.I.   http://www.brainiac.com/bernie





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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread G John Lapeyre


May work for the good guys , though.  If you check the list of
responses at the bottom of the cited page, they (surprise) overwhelmingly
support Linux.

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Ian Keith Setford wrote:

> 
> Yo-
> 
> I received this and couldn't believe this!  What an irresponsible piece of
> pro-Microsoft propaganda.  Ziff-Davis has sunk to a new low.
> 
> -Ian
> 
> btw, pardon my french
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:15:02 -0500 (EST)
> From: Jesse Berst's AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Team AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Fired for Linux? / Win98 Now / Hot Products
> 
> __Berst Alert
>   COULD YOU GET FIRED FOR CHOOSING LINUX?
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt0216ba/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1774.html
> 
>  Linux fanatics cite the freeware operating system
>  as a viable alternative to Windows NT. Sure it has
>  technical merits, but can it pass the all-important
>  "cover your backside" test? Seems to me that championing
>  Linux could be a CLM (career-limiting move) at many
>  large corporations. For your own sake, keep this
>  in mind when reading the glowing articles about its
>  growing popularity. Links, stats and other career-protecting
>  information await you at the site.
> 
> ~~~
> 
> 
> --
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] . 
> Trouble?  e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
> 

G John Lapeyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Tucson,AZ http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~lapeyre


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread Keith Beattie
George Bonser wrote:
> 
> Agreed, cancel all subscriptions to ZD magazines.  Badmouthing Linux
> could be a career limiting move for an editor.
> 

Well, if Linux is ever going to establish itself as more than a
"hobbie OS", it (the Linux community and the free software community
in general) needs to be able to gracefully withstand a lot more heat
than that article dishes out.

Keith


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Re: Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread Ralph Winslow
George Bonser wrote:
> 
> Agreed, cancel all subscriptions to ZD magazines.  Badmouthing Linux
> could be a career limiting move for an editor.

And as Bugs Bunny would say - "What a maroon!".

> 
> On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Ian Keith Setford wrote:
> 
> >
> > Yo-
> >
> > I received this and couldn't believe this!  What an irresponsible piece of
> > pro-Microsoft propaganda.  Ziff-Davis has sunk to a new low.
> >
> > -Ian
> >
> > btw, pardon my french
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:15:02 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Jesse Berst's AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Team AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Fired for Linux? / Win98 Now / Hot Products
> >
> > __Berst Alert
> >   COULD YOU GET FIRED FOR CHOOSING LINUX?
> >
> > http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt0216ba/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1774.html
> >
> >  Linux fanatics cite the freeware operating system
> >  as a viable alternative to Windows NT. Sure it has
> >  technical merits, but can it pass the all-important
> >  "cover your backside" test? Seems to me that championing
> >  Linux could be a CLM (career-limiting move) at many
> >  large corporations. For your own sake, keep this
> >  in mind when reading the glowing articles about its
> >  growing popularity. Links, stats and other career-protecting
> >  information await you at the site.
> >
> > ~~~
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> >
> 
> George Bonser
> If NT is the answer, you didn't understand the question. (NOTE: Stolen sig)
> http://www.debian.org
> Debian/GNU Linux ... the maintainable operating system.
> 
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-- 
-
Ralph Winslow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mary bought a pair of skates
upon the ice to frisk
now wasn't that a crazy way
her sweet young *?


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Bullshit-->Fired for Linux?

1998-02-16 Thread Ian Keith Setford

Yo-

I received this and couldn't believe this!  What an irresponsible piece of
pro-Microsoft propaganda.  Ziff-Davis has sunk to a new low.

-Ian

btw, pardon my french

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:15:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Jesse Berst's AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Team AnchorDesk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fired for Linux? / Win98 Now / Hot Products

__Berst Alert
  COULD YOU GET FIRED FOR CHOOSING LINUX?

http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt0216ba/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1774.html

 Linux fanatics cite the freeware operating system
 as a viable alternative to Windows NT. Sure it has
 technical merits, but can it pass the all-important
 "cover your backside" test? Seems to me that championing
 Linux could be a CLM (career-limiting move) at many
 large corporations. For your own sake, keep this
 in mind when reading the glowing articles about its
 growing popularity. Links, stats and other career-protecting
 information await you at the site.

~~~


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